“Screenwriting is the most prized of all the cinematic arts. Actually, it isn’t, but it should be.” – Hugh Laurie.
This quote is perfect and a hundred percent true. When it comes to film and television scriptwriting, the writer, known as a screenwriter, has the most important job in the whole filmmaking process.
Maybe, though, you are not familiar with what Script Writing is and why screenwriters are so important.
Have no fear, that’s what we’ll dig into today.
What is Script Writing?
Every film or television show that has ever been produced first started off as a script.
The script is the film (or television show) in written/text form. Scene by scene playing out on paper.
Every action. Every image. Every line of dialogue. Every plot point. If it’s on the screen, it came from the script.
In the most basic set of terms, a script is the blueprint for the film you’re going to bring to life.
In the world we live in today, some people may think that the script isn’t the most important part of the filmmaking process (looking at you major studios). Some will say that if you can hire a talented actor, that actor can elevate a poor script into a good movie.
Or someone might have the thought that if the film can just attract an A-list director, they’ll be able to fix problems with the script.
The only issue is, a poor script will never turn into a good movie, because the script is your film’s foundation, and if that’s not solid, your film will never be strong enough to stand on its own.
With that said, on the other side of the coin, if you have a solid script, your film will only improve when you add talent in front and behind the camera.
We as an audience can overlook bad acting and crappy special effects if we are engaged with the story we’re watching. If we have a connection to what we’re seeing on the screen, we’re more forgiving for those other flaws because the story we’re following makes sense and we’re invested.
There’s no other form of writing quite like screenwriting (aka scriptwriting) because there are certain things you have to be able to do that you don’t necessarily do in another form of writing, like when writing a novel.
In a script, you must SHOW and NOT TELL.
This means, any information that you are going to share with the viewer must be done in one of two ways;
If you haven’t pick one or the other, your script has been written incorrectly.
A lot of first-time screenwriters get themselves into trouble when it comes to this because they believe that they can write their script just like they would a novel.
That is WRONG.
The great thing about writing a novel is that you can really get into a character’s head. The writer can tell you exactly what that character is thinking/feeling. The character can express themself to the writer in a very personal way.
The write can reveal information to the reader that has nothing to do with the story but gives the story context. The writer can change perspectives and get into the heads of several characters in the story.
If you are writing a script and looking to write the script correctly, you can’t do any of that.
If you need to key the audience in on something you either have to show it as a visual, or a character needs to say it as dialogue.
Unlike a novel, which we the reader hold in our hands and read for ourselves, the script is never seen by the viewer. The viewer only sees and hears what is taking place on the screen.
Also, unlike a novel, everything written in a script has to be written in the present tense, as the action taking place on the screen is happening in real-time whereas a novel can summarize the events that have taken place.
This can make conveying information to the audience exceedingly difficult as a screenwriter and can lead to what we call “heavy exposition”.
You ever watch a film or television show and come to a moment when it feels like a character is just telling you, the viewer, things you need to know because they’re important to the story? That’s exposition. It feels forced if not done properly.
Think of your favorite and least favorite film and television shows. What did you pick as your favorite? What did you pick as a film you hate? If you analyze things closely for a moment you’ll realize, that while you might hate or like a film because of an actor, or who directed it, you’re remembering the film as a whole based on the story it told.
If I were a betting man, I’d say that the difference between your favorite film and a movie you hate, comes down to the story, and that is all on the screenwriter and how he wrote his/her script.
Script writing has many elements to it and can take a while to learn how to do all those things correctly. It can take even longer to become good at it. But it is also one of the most rewarding writing mediums there are.
I’d like to close out by writing a little scene to show as an example of what I’ve talked about here today when it comes to writing a screenplay compared to a novel, and how you SHOW in a film and TELL in a novel.
First, we’ll write a very quick scene as if it were inside of a novel.
Novel
Mike paces the room back and forth. He’s covered in his own sweat from having just come from the gym, a place he goes every day for at least two hours.
As he paces the room, a familiar face, Jill, enters the room with him.
Jill’s face, filled with a giant smile. She looks at Mike slightly confused having not expected to see him at this moment. She’s very thankful that she decided to come to the living room by herself.
Just moments earlier, she told her boyfriend, the man she’s cheating on Mike with, to not come out to the living room with her to investigate the noises she was hearing. If he would have come with her, Mike would certainly find out about her cheating ways.
“I didn’t think you’d be here till later tonight”, said Jill. “I was feeling restless and just had to see you right now”, Mike replied.
Jill starts to get butterflies in her stomach. What could Mike need to see her right now about? Does he know she’s cheating on him? She starts to lose her smile as she waits to hear what else Mike has to say….
Now, let’s write this small scene like we would in a screenplay and not a novel. Remember, all the information we need to convey must be in visuals or dialogue to tell our story.
Screenplay
INT. HOUSE – LIVING ROOM – DAY
Mike, paces the room back and forth. He wears his gym gear, holds a large, almost empty, bottle of water. His face covered in sweat.
He stops pacing as he sees, Jill, joining him in the room.
Jill greets him with a big smile on her face.
JILL What are you doing here?
Jill looks slightly behind her where the bedroom door is slightly cracked. We see a shadow on the wall moving around. Appears to be in the shape of a man.
MIKE I was feeling restless and just had to talk to you right away.
Jill’s eyebrow slightly raises. Her smile starting to fade away.
JILL (nervous) About what? Is everything okay?
Mike stops pacing the room. He looks towards Jill. He goes to speak when… he sees the shadow from inside the bedroom with his own eyes.
MIKE I knew it!
As you can see, we wrote the same exact scene as in the novel, except we didn’t tell the audience any information. Instead, we used visuals and dialogue to tell all the important information to the audience.
We do not tell the audience that Mike has been at the gym for hours. We show that he’s wearing gym clothes, he’s sweating, and almost out of water. As the audience, we can take this information and figure out what it must mean.
Personally, this is an aspect of screenwriting that I LOVE. Finding the right way to share information with the audience. The more you learn the art of screenwriting the more creative you’ll find yourself presenting the information.
Transcription: So recently, I’ve been writing a lot more often having to get into that sort of narrative feature realm more often than I usually do. A lot of you know that last year I did write my first feature with there comes a knocking. But recently, I’m having to dive into that even more sometimes, even on a deadline. So that’s got me thinking a lot about my process and how I get into that creative realm and what I do to keep myself there and moving forward.
So I wanted to talk a bit about that today, not about the ones and zeros of what actual structure is, or the different types of structure will mention it. But we’re not going to dive into that. So less on how to write and more on how to start writing. And to do that, I asked my friend Ricky stop to help me out on this episode, because he has a similar sensibility to myself. And he just finished writing and directing his first feature starring Idris Elba. So he had a lot of really good ideas that I wanted to bring to you guys as well. So I’m gonna let him start it out.
So guys, my name is Ricky stob, from neighborhood film company. And I’m going to share some tips for you on how we break story when we’re starting out of script. So the first thing that is absolutely terrifying for every single writer out there is facing the blank page. So what we do is we don’t make it blank, the first thing I like to do is actually build a file system, I’ll open the script up, I’ll put the title on, I’ll put my name, I’ll put the date, I just like to be able to see that I’ve started, you know, having little, little goals to make you feel like you’re making progress makes the spirit feel good. So that’s something that we do, we just set up the script. And we like to see that, you know, someday soon, there’ll be 100 pages after that first page, but it just feels good to get started.
I really love that idea about just putting something on the title page, just getting something down on paper to feel like you’ve gotten started, I think that’s such a great way in. And to be clear, at this point, what I’m talking about is breaking a story for a concept that already exists, which is what got me thinking about this episode to begin with.
There’s just this concept that people are interested in. And now I have to break this story. And for me, that means shower time, there’s something about the shower, that is really just such a perfect idea how I think it’s the white noise of the water, the fact that you can’t touch your phone, you can’t look at social media, there are no distractions, it’s just you and your thoughts.
And the main thing that I’m cracking at this stage is who is this about? Who is that person? What are they going through what will change in them and how for me, this is a massive guiding force and figuring out my beginning, middle and end since the character and the theme of the story is going to be what drives that inevitable ending.
Those things are what will lead you to that moment when you say, of course, this is it, it has to be this because it ties perfectly into your story, character and theme. But I’m also just thinking about any and all ideas that revolve around this anything that pops into my head, a line of dialogue, a moment, a set piece, a trailer moment, an image that enforces theme, all of that, and then I will log it in using Evernote and voice recording on my phone, whatever I have available at the time of just chucking it into there, and I’ll collect it into a space later.
A lot of the time, I don’t even really go back and look at that unless I’m stuck. It’s just getting these ideas turning in your head. And the ones that you remember are the ones that stick and end up in the final document. And of course research is a big thing to help me from getting stuck. So if I’m writing something in a courtroom, I’ll go watch a bunch of courtroom videos, I’ll read articles about that. And reading those real life things real situations will really give you a lot of ingredients to start cooking up some other ideas you wouldn’t have had otherwise. But once you have all these ideas down, you know your beginning, middle and end, then what
the next thing we do is we have some very, very practical resources that we rely on to start filling those pages. I think the biggest problem for a lot of writers is that they have these big, beautiful grand ideas, but it’s so hard to take them from your brain and actually put them onto the page. And so there are some really practical resources out there. I’m sure you know, you’ve heard of structure and outline and all these things. But what are the actual resources people are using? Well, I’m going to show you what we actually use.
So there’s a book you’ve probably heard me talk about, I think it’s amazing. I don’t know this author, Blake Snyder, but this book is awesome. And it’s so so simple. And that’s why I love it actually is it takes the really complicated ideas in my mind and helps me funnel them through this prism and say, Okay, how do I take a complex idea and make it simple for film? You know, there’s a great analogy that I think someone told me once I don’t think I made it up but they’re saying what makes films great is not their structure.
You know, just like what makes a T shirt great is not a structure. Every t shirt has a hole for the head, two holes for the arms and a hole to get your body in. But changing that structure putting two holes for two heads that don’t exist does not make the T shirt better. What makes a T shirt great are those little intricacies that are delicate and specific to your voice.
Not the structure of the Actual shirt. And so what I like to do is take the structure of the film off the plate. And what’s really great about the book save the cat is it lays out very simple structures for all kinds of different movies. And if your movie is a, you know, let’s say it’s a fish out of water story, it tells you all the tropes and things that are typically involved in those types of stories. And then you can apply your idea and put it into those into that format.
Now, this might seem to a lot of you, even as I say, and I remember finding the book is like, Oh, it’s gonna make my story so generic. But again, that is not what makes your story unique. What makes your story unique is your vision, your characters, your voice, the people you see in this world, the way that you paint that world, the way that it flows from beginning to end, the way that you uniquely craft them. That’s what makes your story your story.
structure can be a dirty word for people. But the truth is, every film has a beginning, middle and end. And that is a structure no matter what way you cut it. There is some form of structure to every film that you watch, we can get into the structure in another episode and debate all about that.
Like Ricky, I’m also a fan of structure or mile markers, as he called it in our podcast points that you know, you want to hit and knowing these points are a great guide, at least for me, when trying to walk through that beginning desert wasteland of the blank page save the cat does something like a three act structure, I believe and 15 major beats to hit I read it around 2010 and forgot all about it.
The ideas from that book stuck in the back on my mind. And we’re a springboard to my own process. For me, I’m usually thinking more in terms of 6x x one, A and B two, A and B, three, A and B. And this is especially useful for me in the active desert like Ricky, I do split the second act up as well, because I think it makes it pays better and it makes it a less daunting space to travel.
Now this process might change the way that I found my way through in the last few years has evolved overall and changed a bit depending on story too. But at this point, building out the structure. As far as tools go, I’m still in Evernote, although slugline two was just released and full disclosure, I am friends with one of its creators to Auschwitz. But this new version has a way of outlining that I really love.
So I think I’ll be moving off of Evernote and into slugline too for that part of the process going forward, since you can create your acts and beats and easily move things around. It’s pretty badass. So I’ll put a link to that in the notes.
Again, at this point, I’m building out my beats where I think they should fall in the axe. And I’m still not touching the script yet, since I don’t like to actually start writing until I have all my major beats built out where I can see them, rearrange them pitch those ideas to people and watch their reaction and so on. Ricky does something similar here too. But his is more of a physical thing.
Not something like Evernote will throw up tons of ideas literally onto a wall on the note cards. And we’ll ask ourselves, you know, what are what are all the ideas that are in our heads because I like to empty my mind so that the ideas that are in my heads are now physically written down. And for me, it actually creates a mental space where I can fill it with some new concepts because I, I feel like I’m holding on to them if I don’t actually write them down. And so we start by doing that. And then we literally take with save the cat and some other structural devices that we’ve had, we actually work in a four act structure. So that essentially the second act of a three act structure is broken into two acts.
For me, what that helps alleviate is most scripts die in the middle. Because if you think of a three act structure in 120 pages, that means the first 30 are the first act. The second act is 60. And the third act is another 30. But that doesn’t actually make sense to me. So well we also do is, you know, myself and my writing partner, Dan, we always try to keep our scripts under 100 pages if we can.
So if you break out for x, that’s 25 pages practice makes the script move a lot faster. But I’m going to show you something actually. So we write down every single scene in beat of the movie, as we can conceive it. This right here, you can see this, that right there. That is literally every single scene of concrete cowboy. And as we go through writing, we have every single scene written down.
What also creates an enormous level of satisfaction is once you’ve written a scene, you get to highlight the section on the outline. I know this is like super dorky and nerdy, but it feels so good to get to the end and have all your scenes highlighted because that means you’ve written all your scenes.
So now I’m finally writing the script, right? Wrong. Again, this might not work for everyone but my writing is rewriting and I like to do that from the smallest stage up. So my idea dump turns into a rough act map showing the major points, which then drill down further into the major beats. And of course at this point I have the character I know who they are, what they want and what they need.
So now with that built my major beats turn into scenes and I started a rough treatment, a very concise telling of the whole story from beginning to end with the intention of landing all of the ideas and tone of the main piece. So this ends up usually, for me landing somewhere between 13 and 20 pages, but it encompasses the entire story.
What’s great about this is it lets me see if the story is working in a very simple way. And I can show trusted friends to get some feedback on these ideas. Of course, at this stage, you need to be extremely careful who you show, The boat is still on rough waters, and you’re likely not fully confident in it yet, so the right feedback is key. But after that, I take that treatment and start turning it into the script, I copy over what I have placing an under proper scene headings, and I start rewriting and filling things in.
For me, this keeps me from ever feeling overwhelmed at that beginning point from ever feeling discouraged by that blank page. Because I’ve already filled it in before I even started. It’s a psychological trick that I do to myself, but it seems to be working really well. So by the time I start actually writing the film, I’ve already done a ton of work. And the writing gets to be a fun playground of ideas and construction. But it all starts with filling those beats or mile markers.
I think having those little goals, those super small mile markers, pays huge dividends. Because eventually, you know, if you’ve done this every day, for weeks and weeks on end, you’ll see that you’ve taken this big idea that’s been sitting in your head for so long. And you’ve made practical steps of progress to put it on the page. And the biggest part is you’ve got to get out the bad ideas for the beautiful ideas to flourish.
Like, you know, writing is rewriting everyone says that, but that part of the process you have to enjoy is just got to get your ideas on the page. And so really, you know, whether it’s save the cat, whatever app structure you like, figure out the the designs of structure that work for you and your spirit and your writing. And, you know, go forward and write with us.
Although Ricky and I are both talking about features. This does work for short films as well. Although my personal process for short films is a little bit different. There’s less work in the front end involved before I start getting writing. It’s not as detailed before I start into the actual script.
There’s no treatment involved when I’m doing just a short film, but to also say the obvious, we’re absolutely not saying this is how you should definitely do it. We’re just saying that these are the methods that have been working for us if thinking about structure doesn’t help you throw it out. If the idea of six acts sounds ridiculous to you, then ignore it.
What I think is most valuable about getting other people’s process is getting bits of ideas that might work for you and helping Matt to refine your own process or just not feeling alone because you’re hearing other creators like yourself dealing with and navigating the same things you are what matters is the destination, not how you get there that is completely up to you what works best for you find the process that helps you get writing and helps you continue writing and this episode wasn’t about detail on structure or the story ideas.
Like I said before, we may do that in another episode for this, I really just wanted to focus on the process of getting into the process. Because again, it’s what I’ve currently been going through professionally in the last few years, I’ve had to build out this process for myself very quickly. And so far, this is what’s really helped me continue down that path and get the work done.
So hopefully you found it interesting or it’s useful for you. And if you want to know more about process our podcast is back like I’ve been telling you guys last two episodes, we put up a really great and talk a lot about process, especially when it comes to writing. So definitely check the link in the notes for that as well. And of course the contest is over.
We’re gonna start going through everything. And of course announce the winners next week and announce one more contest. So if you weren’t able to get involved with this one, you have another chance. We’ll be announcing that next week as well. So until then, don’t forget to write, shoot, edit, repeat
I’m taking a journey down the rabbit hole of screenwriting psychoanalysis with Professor William Indick, who is a psychology professor at William Paterson University in New Jersey, professor of psychology executive chair of faculty at Dowling College, and author of Psychology for Screenwriters.
We take a nerdy dig into the world of psychology and how it affects writers, screenwriters, and characters. With some expert contextualization, William psychoanalyzes some of our favorite films and characters while also breaking down character archetypes and themes he has studied.
How did it all start, you ask?
Well, in 2003 he made the decision to incorporate more culturally relevant theories of personality instead of antiquated theories in his psychology classes by sorting references from famous films. Based on his students growing interested and fascination, William researched to find psychology textbooks about films, but none existed. So he wrote one instead.
The book was published by Michael Wiese productions in 2004. Psychology For Screenwriters supports that screenwriters must understand human behavior to make their stories come alive. This book clearly describes theories of personality and psychoanalysis with simple guidelines, thought-provoking exercises, vivid film images, and hundreds of examples from classic movies.
Basically, the book takes general psychology theories and applications and adapts them into helpful tools for screenwriters.
He delves into various genre archetypal characters and themes that are repetitive in screenplays in the second edition of the book which will be out soon.
Just this summer, William published his sixth book, Media Environments and Mental Disorder: The Psychology of Information Immersion. It deals a lot with narcissism, and the notion that all media is a mirror, and how we understand ourselves at a time when we’re constantly being reflected in a million ways. The information environments that modern society requires us to master and engage in are based on literacy and digital communication. Mediated information not only passes through our brains, it alters and rewires them. Since our environment, to a large extent, is shaped by the way we perceive, understand, and communicate information, we can even think of mental disorders as symptoms of maladaptation to our media environments.
This book uses this “media ecology” model to explore the effects of media on mental disorders. It traces the development of media from the most basic forms–the sights and sounds expressed by the human body–to the most technologically complex media created to date, showing how each medium of communication relates to specific mental disorders such as anxiety, depression, schizophrenia, and autism. As the digital age proceeds to envelop us in an environment of infinite and instantly accessible information, it’s crucial to our own mental health to understand how the various forms of media influence and shape our minds and behaviors.
My conversation with William was one of those discussions that you come out of, more informed than you went in.
We had a blast. Enjoy my very informative conversation with William Indick.
Alex Ferrari 0:11 I'd like to welcome the show Bill Indick. Man, how you doing Bill?
Williams Indick 0:14 Good, how are you?
Alex Ferrari 0:15 I'm good, my friend. I'm good. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Um, I'm excited to dive into the world of psychology and how it affects writers and screenwriters and characters and cycle analyzing some of our favorite films and characters, which I I do on the show often as a, as a non professional, without a PhD, as I'm sure you've run into too much. But before before we get started, what made you decide to write a book about psychology for screenwriters.
Williams Indick 0:47 Um, so it's this is going back to 2003, so almost 20 years ago, and I was just starting out as a psychology professor, and I was teaching classes like abnormal psychology and theories of personality where you have to, you know, get into the nuts and bolts of psychological theory, Freud, Erickson, young, all those guys. And I was finding it hard to sort of get these very old theories to be relevant to my students. And I, you know, my idea was, okay, well, let me take something that's I find fascinating and interesting, and some and use it as an example to apply it to. So I started doing little short film analyses in class as examples of these classic personality theories. And it really worked very well. So I said, Oh, you know, what, I should get a textbook on like, how to do you know, basically a psychology film book, but none existed, there was really none about specifically applying psychoanalysis to film analysis. So I wrote the book. And one of the people that I shopped the book around to was Michael Reese, and Michael Reese productions. And he said, this is great idea. But we write books for filmmakers, we write books for screenwriters, and they wanted not an academic text for more sort of a practical guide. So I said, Okay, take the same theories, the same applications and just turn them into something that would be helpful for screenwriters. So instead of, you know, saying, Okay, as you analyze a film, think about this, saying, as you write a film, think about this in more sort of analytical ways.
Alex Ferrari 2:22 So can you, like do a cycle analysis on a genre? I like it, because I know you wrote another book about, you know, the psychology of westerns and things. Can you break down like general overall psychologies of specific genres? Are there like key things that are in most of films in certain genres?
Williams Indick 2:40 Absolutely. And that's one of so psychology for screenwriters is going into a second edition, and I had to add three chapters. And basically those three chapters are going to be based on these books I wrote about psychoanalysis, for specific film genres. So in any genre, you're going to have basic character types, which in psychology will typically call archetypes after Carl Jung's theory. So in the western, you have this sort of cast of characters that basically reappear in every film, you have, you know, the cowboy hero, who's oftentimes an anti hero, you have a villain character who usually, quote unquote, a dude. The word dude refers to Easterner who was out west, I don't know how it became just a sort of general term for person. But that's so the villain is usually a dude from the east or a banker or a railroad person or evil cattle Baron, somebody who wants to own the land rather than live in it in a more sort of wholesome or holistic with respects to land. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So you have the quote unquote, horror with a heart of gold character, and then the nice sort of virginal schoolmarm character, and all those characters exist as archetypes. Within this specific mythology that we call the West, and the archetypes change, they grow up and they, you know, become darker usually, but they don't really change the same basic motivation, which is redemption, usually for the, for the hero, that stays the same. And you could do the same thing with horror movies and psycho psychological science fiction, musicals, comedies, every genre exists because there are these archetypal characters and archetypal themes that just repeat themselves over and over again. So yes, you can certainly do a psychoanalysis of genre and I've been doing it and do it again.
Alex Ferrari 4:31 So okay, so let's break down, let's say, the action genre, which is probably one of the most popular genres, sci fi, sci fi and action are both very popular, what are you know, actually a very broad genre. But generally speaking, in your, from your point of view, what are some of the kind of like, archetypes that are constantly in their cycle analyzing that genre?
Williams Indick 4:53 So I would say if we're talking about American films, and that's really I don't know about you, but certainly I'm not particularly comfortable talking about any other rights other than American films. But um, the western was incredibly influential, and really dominated the whole film market for that whole period going from the sort of mid 40s to the early 60s. So what we call the action genre is really just something that evolved out of the Western genre, people saying, hey, maybe we can make an exciting film with guns and chases, and all that exciting stuff happening, but not set in the West. So people started coming up with different types of action movies. But it really basically is the same as the western genre. So you have the same basic kind of hero, this sort of slightly dark character with a good heart who finds it hard to fit in, in his environment, because of his own personal code of honor, that doesn't necessarily mix with the hypocrisy of modern day. And you basically, you take this Western character, and you put them in the city, and you give them a badge, and, you know, a three piece suit. And all of a sudden, he's this the sort of archetypical cop hero, you have the buddy cop movie, that's basically just an extension of the Western genre. And I would say, in this in the 60s and 70s, and 80s, when American culture was getting kind of sick of the Western, we saw a lot more action movies based on this cop hero. archetype, who is essentially the western hero, then starting in the 70s, but really getting a lot of traction in the 80s began to see Action. Action movies based more on classical superheroes, from sort of ancient myth, like people that we call superheroes, people who aren't just regular men, you know, with who are very quick with a gun, but people who are who actually have superpowers, like gods, so Superman, Batman, Spider Man, and that is, you know, a rather different type of story. And that calls upon these ancient patterns of the hero that go all the way back 1000s and 1000s of years, to the ancient Greeks in the ancient Romans, the ancient day ends and Christians, the classical hero, so to understand that character, we really have to kind of study from Joseph Campbell's some Carl young, and move away from the very specific American action hero that basically just an offshoot of the Western hero, the cowboy,
Alex Ferrari 7:30 so the Yeah, cuz I was gonna ask you Next is like, Well, obviously, the the dominant genre in popular movies is superhero. I mean, yeah, it is. It's taken over all other genres. And do you believe in your, in your opinion, do you think what Spielberg said is true? Where we're going to, we're going to get tired of superhero movies, eventually, in the next 15 years, like, we're just going to be like, it's over. Let's move on to something else, just like the western was like the western. But you know, sci fi has always been sci fi action has always been action like there's I don't, but this specific genre of superhero, do you think that that's going to eventually happen?
Williams Indick 8:10 Yeah, you reach a point with any medium point of saturation, where people will have gift had enough and they need something else. That doesn't necessarily mean that the archetypes change. Again, people got sick of westerns in the 1960s, when nine out of 10 TV shows were westerns, and this was something like six out of 10 feature films released every week was a western people got sick of it. And it wasn't as relevant in a time when people were less gung ho about being American in the 60s. So what happened, two things happened, the genre itself became darker and more realistic in an attempt to kind of better reflect the American spirit. And that really kind of killed the western for a while. But the other thing that happened was, the setting changed. And we took the same basic characters and just put them in a different setting. So I would say probably somebody, something similar is going to happen with superheroes, where we're seeing it already, we're seeing the characters get darker and darker and darker. And at one point, it reaches a point where a character gets so dark that nobody wants to identify with that character anymore. It's too dark, like some of the Western characters we saw in the late 60s and early 70s. So yeah, we'll reach that point of saturation, where people just are sick of it. And also we'll reach the point of where the character itself the main character gets too dark, and it's going to have to change. What will it become after that? Well, you never really know. But it's essentially it's the same basic archetype, whether he's in a war movie, or Western or action movie or a superhero movie, basically the same characters with different settings. It take George Lucas, you know, he came around at a time when the western was really dead. And he said, Well, what if I just take a Western and set it in outer space, and instead of lightsaber it's just like samurai swords? Yama. So samurai swords. lightsabers, and he took a state your basic Western plot, mixed a few things in it and came up with Star Wars, which captured everybody's imagination, you know, for decades and decades and decades. And not many people complained, oh, this is just a Western setting Outer Space doesn't matter.
Alex Ferrari 10:16 Right. And I mean, let me he picked obviously he picked he took Seven Samurai and, and hidden fortress specifically, and which are basically, Western semi samurai. Samurai films are westerns, and magnificent, Magnificent Seven and all that stuff. And it's so funny because the this the the success of the latest incarnation of star which was the Mandalorian on the streaming service. It is as Western as you get. I mean, it is yeah, it goes back to the core roots of Star Wars, which was a Western hardcore Western, but in space. And I mean, it's actually I think Mandalorians even more Western than the original Star Wars is,
Williams Indick 10:59 it's a straight up Western, when you see it, you have this character who is the quintessential cowboy hero, he sort of comes in the wilderness, he's in this frontier territory, where everything's kind of dark and scary, yet he has his own personal code of honor. He has this sort of path towards redemption. It's, it's the most traditional Western I've seen in a very long time, and only the setting is different.
Alex Ferrari 11:23 Exactly. And then the whole lone wolf and cub story with him and baby Yoda is also it's just a complete callback to Japanese westerns.
Williams Indick 11:32 Yeah, and the Yoda, the baby Yoda. We've seen that before in westerns, there was specifically there was a film called three godfathers of classic Western that was remade a bunch of times. And probably the classic version was directed by john Ford, with john wayne in it. But the basic premise is you have these three cowboy outlaws, and they're on the run. And they run into a, what he called a wagon train that's been attacked by Indians. And the only survivor is a mother and her newborn baby and the mother died. So now they have to take care of this baby. And yeah, so you have these three really tough guys, like Three Men and a Baby.
Alex Ferrari 12:11 Are you ready? Yeah, you read my mind. I was like a three minute baby.
Williams Indick 12:14 And, but their whole struggle is to you know, deliver this baby to New Jerusalem to this town and a half to fight the wilderness fight Indians, you know, and go through all that and that so uh, yeah, baby Yoda is directly from that. But I mean, when I was watching the Mandalorian, I was thinking, I should probably write something about this show. So not only it's a very traditional Western, but every episode is based on kind of a classic Western movie. Like, like three godfathers or the searchers. You know, it's been a while since I've seen it, but but I was very, very much impressed by Jon Favreau, who's he did a lot of the writing and all the directing, saying, like, this guy knows his westerns, and he's really applying it in a great way. And the wonderful thing about taking a genre like the western, which has very established archetypes, and plots and characters, and just changing the setting is that you don't have to make the characters as dark as they would normally be. Because while people are sick of the sort of a cowboy hero in the white hat in the white horse, perfect character who's so good that he's unbelievably good. People did get sick of that in the 50s, and 60s. But when George Lucas put them in outer space, we have you know, Luke Skywalker, who's again, this classic, very pure white hat, white costume character. Meaning if so, if you change the setting, you can go back to the original home template of the genre. So that's kind of a useful thing to know.
Alex Ferrari 13:46 And it really when you set the whole white hat character in the superhero superhero genre, arguably is the the godfather of all superheroes, which is Superman is very difficult to write for, because he is that white hat character. And at a certain time in American history and world history. That was acceptable in the 70s when Christopher Reeve showed up, it was fine. You wanted that kind of, you know, apple pie kind of character. But as time has gone on, he seems so unrealistic that they had to, like try to darken them up. I'm like, but that's not the character you can't. That's why Batman has been he just days because he's, he's such a realistic character. I mean, to a certain extent, obviously, but much more realistically, dark character. He's a realistically dark character, and he's very vulnerable. And all this stuff. When you're writing for Superman, you're writing for a god. And that was the problem with ancient Greeks. You know, in the myths of ancient Greece, like, well, they had to give them human fair frailties, to be able to write a story about him because if they're just, there's no power in there's no power that can stop them, then why are we watching this? There's no conflict.
Williams Indick 14:53 Yeah, well, when you have a character who's super powerful, the only person who can defeat them is themselves. Eventually, eventually, you have to come to a point of either such darkness when the character is destroying himself, or you have to change the setting, or it changed things around a bit. But yeah, we see. So we see, the same thing with superheroes that we did with the Western characters is at a certain point, we reach point of saturation. So two things happen is one is people start messing around with the setting. And the other thing is people start making the characters themselves get darker and darker, so that they're more interesting and more identifiable. But then you get, you get to a certain point where the character is too dark, and something has to flip, there's a reversal. So like, just to sort of wrap up what we've been talking about with westerns and superheroes, you have the western, the western gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And then to the at the point of saturation, it turns into the anti Western turns into a very dark scenario that people are interested in seeing. At the bottom point of it is people are going to the movies to be entertained, not to be edified, or not to be lectured at, and not to have a dark, dismal time with a character who's just completely reprehensible. So, so what happened was, you had a flip reversal, you took the exact same genre, you just change the setting, like Star Wars, or Superman, and now you have all of a sudden, you can have this character who's totally pure and perfect again, because people don't recognize it as the western. But then over time, again, saturation gets in characters get darker and darker and darker. And then there's going to be a flip or reversal, where all of a sudden people like oh, like we have a brand new movie genre, but it's not. It's just,
Alex Ferrari 16:39 it's just, it's all fun. We've been recycled, we've been recycled, the same stuff since the beginning.
Williams Indick 16:47 Well, one question that's relevant is, well, why can't anybody come up with something that's completely original? Why do we always have to recycle the same characters, the same basic plots, the same basic scenarios? And the answer is, life isn't as complicated as you think it is. And in terms of identifiable struggles that characters can have, there's not that many, you know, you have the sort of classic struggle for redemption, the classic struggle for revenge, those are the two classic themes in westerns that we see in action movies, as well. You have love the search for love, the search for connection, the search for community, the search for some type of meaning, meaningful connection with others, beyond and then there's the fight against evil, or whether evil is embodied by you know, enemies, or by, you know, a wilderness or by some type of danger. Those are the classic themes, and you can't really get away from them, it's hard to come up with an idea for a movie that's going to be dramatic and have conflict and keep people's interest, if you don't touch upon one of those key themes.
Alex Ferrari 17:51 Yeah, in a lot of young writers, a writer starting out, they always like, Well, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna go to any of them, I'm going to come up with something new. I'm like, Listen, you've got to build a house. And there are there's basically about eight or 10 blueprints, you can use. And within those blueprints, you could go crazy. I mean, obviously, look at all the beautiful buildings have been created throughout the world. But at the core, the structure still needs a floor, still needs walls, still needs doors still needs windows in one way, shape, or form, to make this work. And within that scope, within that structure, you could do whatever you want. And that's why I think a lot of young writers fail because they just go off not thinking that they're not being original.
Williams Indick 18:32 And it's and the house is a good metaphor, because the most important thing a house must have is a strong foundation, which nobody sees, you don't see the foundation. So when people think, Oh, you know, I'm going to do something completely original. They're possibly going into the process thinking I don't need a foundation. But we all need a foundation can't see it doesn't make it any less important. In fact, it makes it more important. And that's what the psychoanalysis and psychology gives you. Because if psychology is a study of human behavior, and if film essentially is just human behavior projected onto screen, well, what's underlying all of that behavior? What are people's motivations? What are their both their conscious and their unconscious motivations? There's nothing more interesting than a character who thinks he's doing one thing, but it's actually doing something else and then has to realize at a certain point through an epiphany or revelation, you know, why they're doing what they're doing? Um, that's part of the foundation of any character is what is the secret foundation to this characters issues? And how can it be revealed in a way that doesn't reveal the foundation? Meaning How can I make people understand what this character is going through and what their real inner struggle is by providing symbols and metaphors through some type of outward plot or since it's an external conflict. So the idea is, there's internal conflict. That's what the character is dealing with. That's what we as the viewers identify with, but it all because it's film, it all has to be visualized. It has to be externalized. And objectified in a way that everybody can get, even though they're not psychologists and they're not necessarily doing film analysis.
Alex Ferrari 20:18 So let's let's let's do an experiment here. Can we cycle analyze? One of the more famous heroes of all time, Indiana Jones. Let's Let's psychoanalyze Indiana Jones because because then yeah, if you mean everyone listening, this has if they haven't seen Indiana Jones out there, you got some homework. You've got some homework to do, but he's one of the most, at least if I like the third one. Come on. The third one's pretty good. Yeah. Sean Connery. Yeah, yeah, that's the first three, first three, the fourth one who knows what happened there? But anyway, um, now we can search for more money. And they're doing an apparently that's they're just continuing. Because I think Harrison I think he just broke a hip or something. doing his ad. Now he's doing the next one. But, you know,
Williams Indick 21:01 I hope they're casting him as the mentor character and not the hero, because that's got to be the hero.
Alex Ferrari 21:06 I mean, he's just I mean, at a certain point, I mean, unless you're, unless you're a character like Clint Eastwood and Unforgiven, then you can be the old ie the old hero, but it's different. Yeah. Much, much, much, much, much different. Sorry. So talking about Indiana Jones. What How would you psychoanalyze him? And and can you pinpoint why so many people love that character? It's an adoring character in a time when there's a lot of characters, and there was a lot of copycat, you know, archeology, you know, adventure films made after Indiana Jones. But for whatever reason, and you could say, it's Harrison. And you can say it's the writing and the directing. But for you as on a character cycle analyst cycle, cycle analysts way, what do you think?
Williams Indick 21:51 I think it's the producer, I think it was George Lucas, who has this sort of wonderful eye for archetypes. And he and he saw, he got off and he read the comic book, or however, he saw that character and said, Oh, okay, I see this character, he's a cowboy. He's your classic cowboy hero, but he's in a different setting. And, you know, I, I'm sure George Lucas recognized and said, Oh, I did that with Star Wars. And it worked out really, really well. I took it took the classic Western hero, change the setting, change the scenario a bit. And everybody immediately identifies with his character who's very American, who's very sort of action oriented at but but also has a very basic sense of honor. And also is very American in the way he does things, which is he does things primarily by himself, and does not ask permission or forgiveness, he just does whatever he thinks he should do, tip it oftentimes in a very, very violent way. So we as Americans can identify with that character. So he is that classic hero, and even even dresses, like a cowboy does, with his hat and everything. But there's also, um, you know, so George Lucas took the Western and put it in outer space for Star Wars. For Indiana Jones, he took the western, and he kind of took these superhero character characteristics and put them in with him. So first of all, you have this guy who's super good looking, and, you know, adventure hero, who can do all this stuff. But he's also this brilliant archaeologist, which is, you know, rather unlikely even in a sort of fancy fantasy scenario, can he does seem to have the sort of miraculous powers that Western heroes don't have. So he he is a little bit more of the classic hero, and he's kind of also an Arthurian hero, he's a knight errant, going off on these journeys, to find things like the Holy Grail.
Alex Ferrari 23:45 I was about to say, literally,
Williams Indick 23:47 he's very much the personal hero, meaning he's impure character, or at least pure in his intentions and his motivations. And he's, he's on a good quest. He's going out there to do something good to redeem himself, but but in doing so he redeems the world. Um, yeah, so an interesting sort of amalgamation of these classic heroes you have, you know, the western hero in his costume and his actions and his general kind of approach. And then you have the sort of very classical superhero type of person who has who has all of these superpowers. And then you also have the Arthurian Knight who's who's out on a quest. And he's in he's either rescuing a maiden or he's finding a relic that can save the world or he's defeating some evil enemy like the Nazis. Typically, he's doing all three at once.
Alex Ferrari 24:40 Yeah, and I, I always found that if we're just analyzing just the three Indiana Jones films, the first one and the third one were quests, were the second one was not a quest. It was it was more of he fell upon this scenario, and he's like, I'm gonna go save these kids and I gotta stop what's going on. It wasn't a quest. And I always find in my indie stories, I like a quest, because that's what he's at best at. Is that a fair a fair statement?
Williams Indick 25:09 Yeah, oh, well, he got back to Joseph Campbell. And he would say, you know, there are, there are lots of ways in which the hero finds himself in an adventure. And sometimes it is a quest. And Harold comes and says, look, the Nazis are gonna get this Holy Ark, and we have to get it before them, or something like that, or the Nazis are gonna get the Holy Grail. So that's the very traditional beginning. But then there's also a very sort of classic type of tale, where you have the hero and the hero sort of doing his own thing. And then maybe something like a deer or something, you know, an apparition comes and he sort of follows it into the wilderness. And it's twists and turns, and all of a sudden, he turns around, and he's in the realm of adventure. He's like, how did I get lined up here, but now all of a sudden, here I am. And there's people asking me to help them and they're in desperate need. So it becomes a quest. It wasn't looking for it wasn't directly sort of addressed by a herald character saying you need to do this. But he just sort of finds himself as Joseph Campbell would say, in full career of an adventure. And that's very much, you know, Indiana Jones number two. And I love the beginning part, because it's very exciting. Oh, I love it. And it's a wonderful, Steven Spielberg in sequence of action, action, action, action, but it's also fulfilling that part of the story, meaning the hero gets lost through no fault of his own. And then when he sort of stands up and says, Where am I? Well, you're in intervention. You know, you've got you've got he's got the maiden, you've got the quest, and you've got the villains, and it's all there for you just, you know, just have at it.
Alex Ferrari 26:46 Exactly. Now, so what is someone like Sigmund Freud, have to teach us about character and story?
Williams Indick 26:56 I think probably the most useful stuff we get from Freud, is this notion that we don't understand ourselves, we think we do. But we really don't. And, and when we get frustrated in our lives, it's because we're doing what we think we should be doing. And we have the, what we think is the proper motivation, yet, things aren't turning out the way we want to, and we're not happy the way we think we should be. And Freud said, well, you have to look much deeper into yourself. And you have to look at yourself, like a problem like a like an algebra problem. It's your circumstances. Well, what's going on? Why am I doing these things? And not finding happiness? And what what, why don't I seem to understand myself. And Freud gave us all these tools to try to understand ourselves. So so for example, like defense mechanisms. defense mechanisms are things that we do constantly, all the time to defend our egos in the face of either negative information about ourselves or just negative information in general. And we're constantly defending ourselves from this negative information. But in order for the defense to be effective, we have to be completely unaware of what we're doing. So say a defense mechanism like denial, when there's an obvious problem, but you're not aware of it, because you're in denial. That's something that translates to film very, very well, where you can have a character and we, the watchers, we the viewers are looking at this character and saying, dude, this is there's something horrible that's about to happen, you have to be aware of that. And it's pretty obvious to us, why aren't you seeing it? And it's because they're in denial. And we understand that might not put it in Freudian terms, but we understand Oh, something horrible is gonna happen, and his character is totally unprepared for it. And it's like a train wreck about that happened, and we're watching it, we can't unlock it. Because we've all been in that situation before. And we've all kind of had that wishes. Oh, I wish there was somebody watching me who could Hey, you know, look, look what's gonna happen, you need to prepare yourself. You know? So things like denial and repression and some of the more fancy defense mechanisms like reaction formation are very very very interesting when you put them into characters because the viewer can see where they're going wrong. And but at the same time, they're powerless to help that character kind of like in the movie theater, sometimes we say Hey, watch out. We want to warn them that's an effectual they have to learn for themselves, which is another reason why we identify with these characters is they have to figure out their own weaknesses and then deal with it on their own just like us.
Alex Ferrari 29:35 Now the, you know, with characters they many characters are most characters work on a conscious level, but we as humans, work on a very subconscious level. There's things that motivate and drive us that we honestly in many ways don't even understand why we do things other than when you do that deep dive and psychoanalyst, psycho, you psychoanalyze yourself or You get therapy or you work it out, or it comes out in one way, shape or form through somebody else or another character in your life. Let's say he points it out to you like, Don't you understand why you're pushing everybody away? Because you were abandoned as a child? or something along those lines? Yeah. But to the cut. So can you talk a little bit about the power of using subconscious motivations within character in a story?
Williams Indick 30:23 Sure. Um, so again, it, there's nothing more powerful than seeing a character who's blind to himself. And he, he has to desperately become self aware, in order to save his life. We're in order, you know, to save someone else's life or in order to complete this quest. And again, we identified with that character could we're always in that same situation. So we, it gives us the ability as a viewer, it gives us a certain amount of power, right? Because usually, we're completely blind to our own issues. But when we have somebody else's issues right there on the screen for us to see, we're all you know, we don't know we're doing it. But we're all psychoanalyzing that character. That's why psychoanalysis and film kind of goes along really well together. Because the viewer by default becomes a psychoanalyst, as they're watching this character, they're privy to information that that character doesn't have. Because only we can see that character, objectively, nobody can see themselves objectively. So take, for example, a film that I use as examples of like, Freudian defense mechanisms is a American Beauty, because it's literally they hit everyone. But there's just one scene which is very, very powerful. There's a lot of powerful scenes in that movie. And the power all comes from this revelation of having a character that doesn't know himself. So when he does or says something that makes him momentarily aware of his own issues. It's like a huge revelation. And we if the viewers are like, oh, wow, that's pretty, pretty cool and pretty deep. So there's this one scene. So you know, the film is one scene where he's having a bit of an argument with his daughter and his daughter calls him out on being a perv on perving on her teenage friend, and he says, Jan, you better watch out, you're gonna turn into a bitch, just like your mother. And it just comes out of his mouth. And his daughter is mortified. And he's mortified. He can't believe he said that to his daughter. And he realized how much he hates his wife. And he didn't really I don't think he realized that up until the moment where he said those words. Plus at the same time, he realizes my hatred for my wife, and my hatred for myself, to certain extent for being with with this person that I hate and hates me. It's rubbing off on my daughter. So the worst thing we're doing in this relationship is we're really hurting her. So he has that revelation. And it's all done in this little bit of dialogue. And I say it's mostly done through the just the expression on Kevin Spacey his face after he says that he realized, Oh, my God, I hurt. It's one person who I don't want to hurt. What am I doing? Where am I going? When I you know? And so yes, that's a great example of a defense mech. In this case, the defense mechanism is displacement when you're angry at one person, but you shout at somebody else, a safe outlet. We all do that all the time. But in film, it's so much more powerful because it's it's it's all there for us to see. You know, we set up we're all very aware of it, even if we're not talking about terms like displacement and defense mechanism. We know Oh, he's really angry at his wife. But he took it out and daughter because she touched a nerve by calling him a perv. Because he is a perv. Yeah, so yeah. That's where I think psychology comes in very, very useful for the viewer. But even more useful for the screenwriter, because the screenwriter is the one who has to be very, very explicitly aware of what's going on for their characters. And how these little this little bit of information can come out bit by bit in ways that seem both real to the viewer, and also entertaining and, you know, keeping them engaged.
Alex Ferrari 34:05 Now, what is dream work?
Williams Indick 34:08 The dream work is just a Freud's term for the process of analyzing dreams. And he had, he created a very specific model for doing it. But it's really relatively simple as you can, if you could break it down to two ideas. You have the dream itself that we experienced while we're sleeping. So dream work isn't really for, like daydreams. Those types of fantasies, which are semi conscious, and can be explored just in a sort of regular psychoanalytic way. Because dreams, true dreams are completely unconscious, and they happen while we were asleep. And by the way, 99% of our dreams are never analyzed because we never have any conscious awareness of them. So Freud believed that dreams were important. It was our unconscious minds way of dealing with things IDs and issues that we don't deal with during our waking state. And the two basic principles are that there's the manifest content of the dream, manifest, meaning the clear that what we actually see, which typically doesn't make a lot of sense, or dreams tend to be very illogical. And then there is the latent content. latent means hidden or disguised, meaning the true message of the dream, the true sort of idea that the unconscious is trying to deal with or expressed to ourselves. And, and by analyzing the manifest content by taking the dream as we experienced it, and finding associations for each symbol in the dream, we can uncover the hidden meaning, and then hopefully apply that to our lives in some kind of meaningful way.
Alex Ferrari 35:48 Now, what is normative conflict?
Williams Indick 35:52 Okay, so you're jumping to a different theory, but um, so we have to take one step back to Freud. So Freud believed that dreams, express some type of neurotic conflict, neurotic conflict. So neurotic coming from neuro or the brain, what he means is sort of internal conflict. So there's something we want to do, let's say for Kevin Spacey and American Beauty. what he wants to do is he wants to nail his daughter's teenage friend, which knows, is completely inappropriate, and which she probably doesn't even completely register with himself. It's sort of unconscious desire, that nevertheless is motivating him at every stage in the movie. He's, that seems to be his primary motivation is to become more attractive to this teenage girl so he can seduce her. So this is neurotic conflict, meaning there's one side of him that knows this is wrong, and knows that he's a bad person and a bad father for wanting to do it. Yet there's this other equally strong side of him, call it the end call it the libido that desperately wants this and cannot give it up. It's a fantasy that he knows who's wrong, but it persists because it's has this unconscious power. So so that's what we might say is going on in terms of neurotic conflict. What is normative conflict? Well, Erik Erikson studied really with honor Freud, Freud's daughter. And he wrote when he when Erik Erikson moved to America, from Vienna, in the 40s, he realized that most people didn't really and most people in America didn't understand Freud, that almost everything was lost in translation. And one of the main reasons things were lost in translation why people didn't understand Freud was because it was such a sexual theory. Everything was sexualized. So and in Freudian theory, there is no neurotic conflict without some type of libido without some type of sexual drive, because that's in Freudian theory. That's where all energy comes from. It comes from this basic life urge this libido this need to reproduce, and therefore this need to have sex. Erikson Erickson said, well, all that stuff is true for it in theory, but if people in America can't talk about sex, this is like 1950s. If Americans can't talk about sex, how are they going to understand the theory, they're just going to reject the theory outright, which is what people were doing. But he said, you know, what, you can take the same basic issues that Freud was talking about, and you can unsexual eyes, and you can talk about them in less sexual ways. So he said, you can take neurotic conflict, this internal conflict, and instead of saying, Oh, this is about libido versus guilt, or ID versus super ego, and he's very technical ways, you could say, everybody is always struggling, everybody is conflicted. Why? Well, we want to be normal people and lead normal lives. And we want to be true to ourselves. Yet at the same time, everybody in our environment is putting these demands on us. Our parents want us to be one thing, and our teachers want us to be another thing. And our siblings Expect us of us and our wives and girlfriends and boyfriends, and everybody expects something from us. And those expectations mean that we have to become the person that they want us to become. But we also want to stay true to ourselves. And that's a true conflict, and there's nothing necessarily sexual about it. So that's what we mean by normative conflict. It's neurotic conflict, same exact thing, but not in sexual terms. And it is also more about self identity. How do I understand myself? How do I define myself, while at the same time, satisfying other people's expectations for me?
Alex Ferrari 39:29 Now, I'm not sure if we've covered this or not, but what are some of the archetypes for plot according to a guardian?
Williams Indick 39:36 Okay, well, it'd be really be more to have, according to me, because color you'll never really wrote about movies or anything. Sure. And he wrote about archetypes, but not necessarily archetypes of plot. So but it's the same idea meaning if you have a set of character traits, for, for a certain type of character, and we call the amalgamation of those character, those characteristics, an archetype then we can Do the same thing for a theme meaning basic, the basic characteristics of a theme, become an archetypal theme or a classic theme. And so if we take that and apply that to movies, I mean that if you have a character who audience needs to follow and identify with and be engaged with for 90 to 120 minutes, possibly longer nowadays, we have, you know, a television characters that have, you know, 1000 hours, you know, how are we going to? How are we going to stick with that character? And it's all about motivation. It's all about what is motivating this character? What is holding? And what is holding them back? What's their conflict, what's your struggle. And if we think about it that way, there's only a handful of archetypical plots. There's the revenge plot. And we and we all can identify with that. There's the redemption plot of the character did some bad things in the past, or has led a life which was not completely pure, but now they have a chance to redeem themselves by doing something good and pure for others. There's the love plot of simply character, a character who's in love, but there's some type of obstacle that they have to overcome in order to win the person that they adore. There's the classic quest motivation. You know, so so there's, you know, if you think about it, there's only maybe a half a dozen different plots, different types of motivations that work and can can extend interest in a character for more than, you know, 100 minutes yourself. So that's what we mean by the archetypical plot. And it really ties in with the archetype of the character meaning, an archetypal character is going to have an archetypal theme or not archetypal plot that's driving them along. The two aren't are inseparable. Now,
Alex Ferrari 41:48 I love this. I saw this in your book, I just had to ask you about it. What are some archetypes in the age of narcissism? Because I got we are in the age of Narcissus.
Williams Indick 41:59 Yeah, well, I mean, so in in psychoanalysis, we have the metaphor of the mirror. Now, you know, the idea of looking at oneself. And we, and oftentimes we get confused, because we think we're looking through a window, we think we're looking at other people, but we're looking at a mirror, we're looking at ourselves. And I would say that sort of confusion, which is narcissism. So what was narcissist is a mistake while he looked at a reflection of himself, and became hypnotized or entranced by that image of himself. But he had no idea that he was looking at himself, he thought he was looking at this beautiful young man. And the thing that he was unaware of the reason why this image was so hypnotizing was because it was him. But in a way, it wasn't him. And that's what was hypnotic about it. And we all find ourselves in that situation, right now, with modern media, we all carry around these things, these phones, and you look at it, when it's not on, you're like, Oh, it's just a mirror. We turn it on, but when we turn it on, that's when we lose the accuracy of what it really is. Because we think we're looking at the outside world, we think we're looking at other people's webpages and other people's comments and other people's opinions. But it's all in reflection of who we are. I don't want to get too far off the point. But the the one basic question everybody has is, well, if all of this media is helping us to be informed, helping us to learn about what's going on in the world, and what's going on with other people. Why is why are we the most confused we've ever been? Why do people seem to not understand when a person say like the president of a certain country, is a complete a complete narcissist and only cares about himself and has no real sort of personal morals or virtues of his own? Like, what why does the majority of the country seem to not either not care about that, or not be aware of it, or just accept it and be like, well, that's okay. Everybody's like that. And it's because we're, we, we think we're getting more information, but we're getting less information, because all we're doing is just looking at ourselves, looking for validation of our own opinions, looking for people who repeat what we already believe. And, and this sort of, we're existing in the echo chamber of our own reflections and our own thoughts, and the fact that other people reflect what we're saying what we're thinking or what we want, that doesn't make it less of a mirror, it just makes it a more powerful mirror, a magical mirror, because it really does create that illusion of I'm looking outwards. But in reality, we're just seeking our own reflection. And that's why we have less information because nobody is looking for the truth. We're just looking for what we think we already know. And for validation, confirmation about that. Alright, so how are we plays that apply that to the age of narcissism? Well, the age of narcissism has to do with a modern time when the things that we used to revere what Alfred What's it Adler
trying to think it was Otto ronk, I believe. He called a call that the object of devotion. And he believed in existential psychology, the psychology of existence. He believed that we all need an object of devotion, we need some something outside of ourselves, to devote ourselves to something pure, something good, something to motivate us, and something that we can aspire to. And for all of human history that has been the spiritual that has been God and the different versions of God, you know, just like the hero has 1000 faces, so too does God have 1000 faces. So for most of us, we found that in the heavens, we found that in God, but then we get into the 20th century, and we have all these smart people writing books, and we have Nietzsche saying God is dead. And we have a movement away towards spirituality, because it's not logical. It's not rational. It's not based on what we think we know what we that the narcissist think we know and understand about the world. So we need a different answer. It's kind of like similar to what we were talking about archetypes, like the western hero, super superheroes, meaning when a culture reaches a point of saturation with something they need to move on, they have to change it. So our culture is to a certain standard with either saturated with God, or for what for various reasons found God, no longer meaningful in the way God used to be meaningful. So we have to find other things. And we sit we search outwardly, we search outwardly for heroes, we search outwardly for causes we search outwardly for virtues and issues that we can identify with. But we're fooling ourselves, because we're really just looking at mirrors. We think we're looking outwardly, but we're looking inwardly. And anything that's anything that's a screen is ultimately a mirror, because the only way we understand those characters and those stories, is by associating it with ourselves. So the age of narcissism is this age, when lots of people think they have the answers, and they understand why they're right and why everybody else is wrong. And they just live this life of solipsistic self satisfaction, where they think they have all the answers, they know, they have all the answers, and they're frustrated with everybody else, because they don't seem to be respecting the fact that they have all the answers. But at the end of the day, they're just Narcissus. And they really don't understand other people. And, and they can't, because instead of really trying to understand others, they're just getting more and more reflections of themselves
Alex Ferrari 47:38 as a as a person, a student of psychology. How do you see the society as we've got as the last 120 years that we've had media, as we kind of know it today from the beginning of the film industry, and, and radio and television, and now? computers, internet and all that stuff? How do you think our stories are affecting our society, as far as where we're moving towards? Because we just talked a bit about the age of narcissism. And you can you can kind of start seeing you can see this in the set, 60s and 70s. Were the stories from Hollywood were dark, taxi driver, easy writer. I mean, these are you couldn't even couldn't even conceive of something like that being released today by a major studio. Where do you think this is going for us as a society and also in, in just general American films?
Williams Indick 48:40 It's interesting. Film definitely turned darker in the 60s and 70s. Part of that had to do with the rating system. So prior to the rating system, every movie was was a family movie, family, people went to the movies as families and they sell movies together. So you know, a movie like psycho was seen by tons of, you know, two year olds, and people started to realize like, oh, okay, well,
Alex Ferrari 49:03 this is probably not right.
Williams Indick 49:05 If we want movies to sort of progress as an art form, we are going to have to segregate, you know, children from it. And at the same time, if we want movies to keep on capturing people's attention and make it more interesting, it has to be different from television. Television is a it's for the family. So we have to create movies that aren't necessarily for the family. So the idea of making very dark movies, very dark themes and adding lots of curse words and nudity and sexuality. A lot of that had to do with the struggle to you know, to keep up with television or to compete with television, and cinema trying to redefine itself as an adult art form, as opposed to sort of just mass entertainment, which television had become. And at the same time we saw in America, certainly a much more critical view of America itself. So the old westerns where you had this classic character, who was maybe a little bit dark, because he was violent, and he used violence for his own means, and he used violence in a unilateral way, didn't ask permission. He just killed, killed everybody who thought he should be killed. Um, people in America became a little bit dubious about that. I mean, because at the time, you know, we were in Vietnam, and what the hell are we doing there, and nobody really seemed to know for sure, all we knew was that we, as Americans went there, and just started killing everybody left and right, because we thought that was what we should be doing. And that reflected not just on American society, but on the thing that represents American society. And at that time, certainly by the 60s, it was the western hero, there was nobody, there was no other character that represented America more than the western hero. And that's why the western hero became darker. Because in again, if we apply the notion of narcissism, that when we look at a screen, we think we're looking at something else. But what we're seeing is a reflection of ourselves. If that mirror is not an accurate reflection, know if our feelings about ourselves are dark, and dubious. And we don't know if we're doing the right thing. In fact, if we're pretty sure we're doing the wrong thing, then that mirror reflection in the cinema has to change, it has to reflect that. So that Western hero who best represented America became darker and darker and darker and darker, until it reached a point where nobody wanted to see it anymore. And that was why, you know, it became the superhero. And then the same thing is happening with the superhero, coming darker and darker and darker, until we reached the point where we're not going to recognize that character anymore. It's going to flip and change. So cinema, like television, is this reflection of ourselves on a societal level. And it is very, very true that if you want to get a sense of where a country is where culture is, look at their media, Look at, look at the mirrors that they're using to reflect themselves and see what that tells us. And I would say, you know, right now, our media, certainly for young people is telling us, you know, well, the only way we're going to get out of this mess, is through some type of superhero intervention, some type of divine power needs to come and just change everything. Because we can't rely on people. If you look at the typical super superhero movie, the people that represent average, adults tend to be either corrupt, or downright evil, or just completely helpless and uninformed. They don't know what's going on only the superhero, and usually the adolescent characters that are allied with the superhero who understand the danger, who understand the limits of society, and who know, well, the only thing that can save us is some type of superhero. Possibly, that's why you know, and not our last election, but the previous election, we weren't really looking for a realistic leader for our country, we were looking for some type of fantasy or some type of non person who's who fulfilled fantasies of you know, of being this powerful superhero who's going to change everything didn't work out.
Alex Ferrari 53:20 that's a that's a Yeah, that's a really interesting way of looking at it. Because you're right, right now we are if we're looking at if media is our mirror then superheroes are the dominant force of media that we have in our stories. Right now, and especially in cinema. I mean, if you go back and look at the 80s I mean, Jesus you got you know, Arnold, you've got sly, you got Rambo, you've got commando, you've got you know, Chuck Norris, you've got this America kick ass kind of energy. That was throughout the 80s. You know, that's, that's where the action hero as we know, it today kind of was born. But even then, they were super, they were almost cartoonish versions of like, even now today, you know, you know, Liam Neeson is an action hero, you know, you know, but in the 80s, there would be no way of Liam Neeson or let alone a female action here. And we're now that's doable, but back then it was all muscle bound, cartoon versions of human x, exaggerated versions of ourselves.
Williams Indick 54:26 And I, for whatever reason, that was something our society had to go through. The Western hero as we know him became very dark. And he came to represent the things that we hated about ourselves, you know, the violence, the salep system, the inability to see other people's point of view. And so we had to sort of that hero had to be reborn in a new setting. And it became very, I think, one of the reasons it was very militaristic character, was because in a darkening the western hero we did it in a way that was very reflective of what was going on in Vietnam. And in doing so we kind of cast a pall upon another type of hero, the soldier hero, the warrior hero, which is even more ancient than the western hero. And I think as a culture, we needed to sort of recover from that I need to say, you know what, soldiers are good. The American soldier is inherently a good person who wants to do good things. And yes, he's frustrated by officers who want him to do the wrong thing. Or by you know, the government, you know, there's always that represents that representation of corruption. But the US soldier is a good man, he is a Rambo, he is a what was this Schwarzenegger? Well, commando,
Alex Ferrari 55:43 commando and predator? And yeah,
Williams Indick 55:45 although the American soldier is good, and we can trust him to do the right thing. We needed to reaffirm that to ourselves after Vietnam, and after, you know, that whole period dark period of dark self reflection.
Alex Ferrari 56:00 And officer and gentlemen as well, not as a superhero, but but definitely a positive light on a on, you know, the military deal with Tommy Jesus Top Gun. I mean, that's, that was, yeah, there's, there's as much testosterone and one in one movie ever, is Top Gun and probably 300. I mean, there's just so much testosterone. Through those films, it's not even funny. And a lot of the 80s action films, lethal weapons and all that kind of stuff. It was it was, it was an interesting time, but those films wouldn't play today. Not in the same way. Society has changed. I noticed their Top Gun too, is coming out. But he's the mentor now, but he's the mentor now.
Williams Indick 56:44 Okay. Yeah, I would think I would think so because he's a bit old to be playing that hero character. Yeah, so I'm curious to see how it does. Because I think we are in a bit of a different place. We're not really as open to these unilaterally good American heroes as we used to be. So I would be curious to see you know how that movie does and how it handles the problem of American identity.
Alex Ferrari 57:07 And also don't don't ever underestimate the power of nostalgia. That illness that we have is because I'm like, I was there when Top Gun came out. So I'm the first in line to see it, because I want to go back and relive my youth. And that's I think Hollywood's been doing that now for 34 years.
Williams Indick 57:28 Yeah. I mentioned before the problem with originality that there is essentially no truly original character type. And there is no essentially new original type of plot. But at the same time, you got to use something, something original, it's a new setting a new idea, a new catchphrase something. And it does seem that Hollywood has just gotten stuck in just our recapitulating regurgitating its own archetypes over and over and over again. Possibly, because the foreign market is so important now, and arguably is the foreign market is more important, important than the American market in terms of, you know, making a big film successful.
Alex Ferrari 58:09 Right, and I think comment combining genres genre, you know, crashing genres together, like the Western and the science fiction film with Star Wars. And that's when you start, you know, mashing up all these kinds of different genres that does make things a little bit more interesting. Like, what was the god, there's just so many, but like, when when you bring the superheroes down watchmen, when you're like me, watchmen, you brought the superhero down to the to the ground level, and they have problems. And they're, some of them are assets, and some of them are rapists, and some of them are really good and drunks. And that was a comment that made it a very interesting, made more interesting than just Superman. I'm here to save the day.
Williams Indick 58:58 Yeah, I mean, the good thing about the maturation of any genre is it gets more complex. So like, like when food starts to spoil, the beginning of that process is a complexity meaning it becomes more complex, like, you know, a dark cheese, or complex and interesting than hard cheese or a light cheese. But that's because it's beginning to rot. The first sign of rot is the darkening of the characters. And the and the plots becoming a bit more wiring meaning a bit a bit more sort of complex and over all over the place and unexpected things happening. And that's a sign of genre beginning to beginning to rot beginning to the audience's getting saturated with that. So they're trying to figure out ways of making it more complex and more interesting, but it is the very beginning of the end.
Alex Ferrari 59:52 Interesting. That's I love that analogy. I love that writing analogies like this, the beginning starts to get complex and then it just you can't eat it anymore. surfpoint I'm gonna ask you a couple questions ask all my guests. What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in your industry or in life?
Williams Indick 1:00:11 I'm thinking probably has to do with my process as a writer. And I did I, you know, I was interested in writing screenplays for a long time, and I wrote novels. And now I took me a long time to find a voice and to find what I'm good at. And it wasn't, it's not really what I originally wanted to do. I originally wanted to be a, you know, what I would consider a creative writer to write screenplays, novels, stories, things like that. And it took me a long time to realize that my voice really is in nonfiction. And I think probably that's relevant to anyone who's a writer, we begin the process, thinking, Oh, I'm going to be doing this, I'm going to be doing that. But I think for most of us, it's a process of self discovery. And the thing that is revealed to us is that what we thought we were good at, or what we thought we wouldn't be good at is not it. Kind of like a typical hero's story where a hero goes on sort of adventure after adventure after adventure. And in the process, they learn about themselves, so that by the end of the process, yes, they've had a victory, they did what they set out to do. But the journey was by far more important and more elucidating than the end. So whenever I'm working on a book, now, it's not so much about me thinking, Oh, is this gonna bring me to the level of success that I'm looking for? But it's more about? Am I being as creative as I can be, even though this is nonfiction? Because my goal now is, is to say, well, there's nothing there's no rule that says you can't be very, very creative in writing nonfiction. In fact, you know, if we look at Sigmund Freud and Carl Jung, their nonfiction was incredibly creative. And I think yes, so that might be useful, hopefully, for other writers, or filmmakers, or anyone really, in creative pursuit, is you have to give yourself time to find your voice. And then when you do find your voice, you have to be accepting of that you have to get say, like, Well, you know, I don't want to be that type of writer, I don't want to be that type of director or I want to do stuff that I think is cool. Is that really you? Is that where your strength lies? Is that the type of story you're good at telling? Or is that the story you want to tell? You know, it's a process of self discovery.
Alex Ferrari 1:02:34 Right? I mean, I wanted to be a wide receiver for the Miami Dolphins, but that just not a thing.
Williams Indick 1:02:43 Yeah. And, again, we go back to this idea of the hero, you know, we have heroes in movies, but we also have heroes and mentors in real life. And I think, you know, most young people starting out, they find someone like, Oh, I want to be Steven Spielberg, or I want to be George Lucas, or I want to be, you know, this famous writer. And we we use these heroes as templates for our own lives. But our choice of selection is not very comforting. We're looking at the most talented and the most successful people ever. And we're saying why can't I be like them? And it takes a long time for us to, for me to look, give ourselves a break and be like, well, you're not going to be Steven Spielberg. You're not going to be even Steven Soderbergh. That's not who you are. But you can do great work. And you can, you know, love your work. And you can do great interesting things. If you find your voice, if you and if you allow your voice to be heard.
Alex Ferrari 1:03:37 You know what the funny thing is that I think George Lucas and Spielberg wanted to be Kurosawa. And, and quote, unquote, they wanted to be Kurosawa. But he's like, I can't be corsage. Well, I guess we'll just be ourselves. And it worked out, okay, for them.
Williams Indick 1:03:52 It's a part a part of growing up is figuring out who you are, where your strength lies. And it's a bit sad. But yes, resigning yourself to the fact that you're not going to be this dream character based on fantasy that you were trying to be when you were 13 years old. When you're 23, you have to find a new hero and find a new mentor and redefine yourself. And we have to do that at every age of life. Or else we're just going to be constantly, you know, defeating ourselves,
Alex Ferrari 1:04:21 and what are three of your favorite films of all time? Okay.
Williams Indick 1:04:26 First one that always comes to mind is just searchers in that job for 1936 john wayne, and I love that movie for so many reasons. One reason is what we were talking about before, we were talking about how westerns, certainly in the 50s 60s, represented the American character and was a mirror to American society. And in the searchers, john Ford did something that was really fearless. He took john wayne, who was identified as the American hero so strongly that people Like every everybody thought that john wayne was a war hero. He was a warrior. His career was just taking off. He didn't go to war he stayed behind, while everybody else but But nevertheless, he was on all these war movies and people always considered him the quintessential American hero of his age. But he wasn't. So john Ford said, I want to tell the story. It's a classic American story, but it's very dark, because we have a character who's a racist. And when his daughter not done it when his niece is abducted by these comanches His goal is at first to rescue her. But then it's the killer. He wants to kill her because she's living among the Indians. She's, you know, she's gone native. And the only way that he could rest with that, if he killed her, by his own hands is very, very dark character. quest is to kill a little girl, who is his nest? Who's nice? How do you tell that story? And how do you cast the quintessential American hero in that story, very difficult. But john Ford was able to pull it off, and one of the greatest the most visually stunning movies ever made, and one of the most powerful movies ever made. So, you know, I always go back to the searchers, and say, like, wow, hard to make a better movie than not match to art art, like people like what's the greatest movie ever made. And of course, you know, Citizen Kane, whatever, whatever you like. But the searchers is john Ford, arguably the greatest director of all time, john wayne, art, certainly the greatest Western hero of all time. That's a pretty strong pair. Okay, another film. Let me think for a moment, after the surgeries, it gets a little bit harder. And I don't want to say john Ford again. Mmm hmm. Well, just because, first of all, this list of like three greatest things, it's always going to be changing. Oh,
Alex Ferrari 1:06:52 of course. Just right now, just today. Yeah, today.
Williams Indick 1:06:56 Right now I'm thinking about the movie Pan's Labyrinth. I'm writing about it. And classic movie by guerra, Guillermo del Toro. And again, he's doing something somewhat similar, where he's taking a fairy tale, the story of the fairy tale about the young girl who's coming of age, and she has a wicked stepfather. And there's a, you know, a sort of a fairy character, and we don't know whether it's good or evil. So it's a classic fairytale. But he, rather than avoiding the darkness that we see in the sort of classic grimms brothers fairy tales, he delves into the darkness, darker and darker and darker. But at the same time, he never loses that fairy tale quality of it. And we never lose the sort of innocence of the girl and we never stopped identifying with her. That was just a wonderful thing to pull off. Where How can you How can you tell a fairy tale that's true to fairy tales, but at the same time, is excessively dark, and terrifying. And, you know, really, really sort of, you know, brings up these questions about, you know, human nature and things like that. So you know, when a film can do can be dark and light at the same time, that to me, it's kind of like an impressive thing to pull off. So I really enjoyed that. When we try to think of another film. Well, I'll just tell you, again, this is just stuff that I've recently seen and was impressed by. But I was very impressed by 1917, which was just visually stunning. So it has that sort of spectacle aspect of cinema. But it tells a simple story, where you're basically following these two characters, and then this one character to the end, and it gets darker and darker and darker. But because there is a basic heroism to the character that we all can identify with. And he's just a man who's given a mission, and he needs to get it done. It's very simple, simple motivation, a very simple story. But it gets very, you know, it gets into the complexities of the characters in a way that you know, wonderful. And again, it's mixing a darkness with light in a way that can be inspirational for the viewer. And I was very impressed by that.
Alex Ferrari 1:09:11 And now where can people find you and your books?
Williams Indick 1:09:16 Well, my books are all you know, out there, go to amazon.com or McFarlane pub comm, you'll find a most of my books. Me personally, I'm a psychology professor William Paterson University in New Jersey. And looking forward to going back and teaching regular in person class. This fall, everything was online for a while, um, I do have a book that just came out, and it's called media environments in the mind. And it deals a lot with you know, when I was talking before about narcissism, and the notion is that all media is a mirror, and how do we understand ourselves at a time when we're constantly being reflected in a million ways? So that's the sort of academic book that I just came out, but I also am just got a contract for a second edition of psychology for screenwriters, which will have a lot more information about writing for genre.
Alex Ferrari 1:10:11 Bill, thank you so much for coming on the show. It has been. It's been a journey down the rabbit hole speaking to you today. So I I do appreciate you man. Thank you so much for being on the show.
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I had a fun chat with our guest today. We hit it off pre-interviewing, geeking out about James Cameron and his latest masterclass, and so much more. On the show this today is Will Hicks who is head of Screenwriting and production at ColoradoFilm School and an associate professor at the Community College of Aurora.
Will had a start in producing and screenwriting earlier in his career until making the shift to teaching few years in — appreciating more, the elements of studying the craft of form and purity in teaching that he feels are more rewarding.
His commitment to academia led to publishing his book, The Screenwriter’s Workout, which we discuss lengthy in this interview. The Screenwriter’s Workout is a training program consisting of over 75 exercises and activities designed for screenwriters. It aims to help screenwriters explore their creativity and strengthen their storytelling skills.
The book includes exercises on designing dynamic characters, exploring structure, creating stories, redefining conflict, analyzing the work, craft compelling loglines ad discovering interactive screenwriting.
The 2021 Variety Entertainment Impact Report featured Hicks on its Top 50 Film Schools and Instructors from around the world list—revering his 100 plus professional credits nurturing some of the best talents in the country.
Besides talking about Hick’s career teaching screenwriting, we also do some surface character building and storytelling analysis of some famous films and writers. But also, the complexity of writing the end of a sustaining story for TV.
Alex Ferrari 0:14 I like to welcome to the show Will Hicks. How you doing Will?
Will Hicks 0:18 Doing Will? How about you?
Alex Ferrari 0:19 I'm doing very good, my friend. I'm doing very good. We've had a very spirited conversation even before we got started on this thing, because today as of this recording, Mr. James Cameron released a masterclass and I generally don't fond over masterclasses in general, it's some of them are good. Some of them are like, you know, just basically YouTube videos. But there's a handful that are really good, but it's James Cameron. And I was fascinated to see what James Cameron was doing. And I've just been sitting there consuming it. And then we started talking about it and how he's very underrated as not only a filmmaker but as a screenwriter and you actually bring them into your coursework, right?
Will Hicks 1:01 I do. Yeah, there's a bunch of takeaways you can take away from Cameron reminds me of a story he tells about bleeders growing up in Canada and he could cut grass for living and you need to look at these massive lawns and say it's gonna take forever just this huge daunting thing. And so then he would focus on one row at a time one row at a time. And he equated that to filmmaking it just and screenwriting it seems like it's this massive endeavor, but you break it down into its granular level one line at a time one line at a time and suddenly you're you're done not only that just to see and craft alone when you look at I think there's this there's this bit of a perception Hey because you have commercial success you know your work is not artistic and I just disagree with that vehemently. I think you can have you can have both a work that not only reaches a large number of people but can also be an artistic you know it can it has something to say and meaning and just how we construct the scenes are just tight tight beyond tight. Is dialogue worthy of study.
Alex Ferrari 2:12 Yeah, his his story structure I mean, you go back to watching any of his any work early, late mid from the recent as recent as avatar, which is now a decade. Oh, it was it's over 10 years since we've seen it. It's he's he's an insane, insane man and in the best possible way. And now we're gonna get four avatars back to back to back to back. Apparently, so, but you look at a Terminator. Read that script. Read aliens read the abyss. Oh my god. Yeah, this True Lies any of it. And anytime he. I remember when Titanic was coming out. Everyone was like, Oh, he's Oh, this is gonna be a bomb. This is gonna be crazy as hell, which everybody, that's the long story. But I always used to tell people Mike and Cameron I trust, whatever he does. Whatever he does, he hasn't failed me yet. which is rare for a filmmaker because most filmmakers, you know, stumble or didn't hit the mark. And that's okay. That's all artists do that. But for whatever reason, Cameron, every one of his movies, in my eyes at least hits the mark. For me True Lies is exactly what he wanted it to be. And aliens was exactly in Titanic, and then even average and even avatar when avatar was coming out. After everything is done. People were like, Oh, God, blue people. Oh, this is this looks ridiculous. And I'm like, hey, he made a movie about a boat. And we all knew the ending. Okay, yeah, we all knew the ending. And he used it against us in creating tension, which was masterful, is masterful how he did that. It's remarkable. It's so many lessons you can learn. He agree.
Will Hicks 3:49 Oh, absolutely. And it's funny. I think that's the length of Titanic works for it. Because, you know, we've reached we reached the point where in the film, where it's like, Okay, this movie should be ending sometime soon. And there's all these little moments there where jack goes under the water comes back out of the water spoiler.
Alex Ferrari 4:07 And if you haven't seen the song, you guys sorry.
Unknown Speaker 4:10 Yeah, that was kind of my thing. And then like, Oh, we just don't know he didn't. And it starts to use its length to actually, you know, advance the storytelling and then from a structural perspective, you know, talking about story structure, and so forth. It's just like, beautiful. analyze it. And the real knock or the real concern with Titanic back in the day was everybody knew Cameron could do action. He had proven it time and again, so nobody was the studio's weren't worried about that. It was really seen a love story. Now.
Alex Ferrari 4:42 It's all we've seen from him. Thank you. That's my point. every movie, every movie from True Lies, to the Abyss to aliens determining their love stories.
Will Hicks 4:53 That's exactly it. And so, you know, you've seen it you hear that scuttle? really did you not watch the term Terminator.
Alex Ferrari 5:01 Now watch Terminator two, or Terminator two, like their love stories. One is between a man and a wife. The other was the love of a son and a daughter and son in the mother. Like, it's just, I think the abyss. That's all that is, is a love story. Yeah. And so,
Will Hicks 5:18 so that, you know, the whole conventional wisdom is outright whatever. And so yeah, I felt like we'd be in good hands. But in particular, you know, going back to the original Terminator, to me that that was kind of the finest of the two, I get in debates for this all the time, because there's two fans and so forth. But I mean, you're taking that world and bringing it upon us for the first time, in addition to all the heavy lifting you have to do with the story. But yeah, mythologically constructed just just thing of beauty, to watch
Alex Ferrari 5:47 and on. And on a low budget and,
Will Hicks 5:50 and on very low budget. And then of course launches, you know, Terminator two, with much more or much greater resources at hand. But I felt the storytelling in Terminator one was just to me, it was superior. And that's, you know, comparing the two gems and saying, Oh, yeah, this one has more facets. Yes, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, it was kind of cool. I had a screenplay go into development with the guy who shut down Titanic from the studio. And so, you know, it's kinda like, holy crap. This guy, you know, went down and told James Cameron, you know, you need to shut down. And here he is working with, you know, little me and Ellie. Okay. So that was kind of cool. My my little connection,
Alex Ferrari 6:34 my favorite, my favorite. And then and then we will actually continue with this actual interview. But we should we just started geek out a little bit about Cameron, is that my favorite Cameron story I've ever heard it was actually was in one of the books, one of his books on his career. He was on the Abyss and if anyone has not seen the abyss, not only watch the abyss, but you have to watch the documentary about the Abyss that comes with the DVD or the blu ray because it is arguably one of the best documentaries out there with hearts of darkness about the making of a film you just like see the absolute abuse that that entire crew, including Cameron took to make that was an impossibility. Go shuts down a nuclear power plant or has a with a decommissioned nuclear power plant fills it up with water and builds a set in it. Like he's insane. It's an insane man. And I love him for that. But one day he was uh, he was there was some suits that came in from from the studio going, Hey, what's going on with this is getting a little bit over budget here, which I think it ended up being around 15 million in 1988, which was a pretty big budget with, you know, no major, big stars in it at the time. And Cameron had just come up from a decompression period of about three hours because you have to decom he was underwater, so long. You have to decompress. And he was always the last one. First one in last one out. So he had just got dumped, decompressing came out and this suit starts walking towards him. And he as he gets out, he has this helmet on and these helmets where if you remember watching the movie, the helmets, you could see through, they designed the helmets themselves. So they could shoot and see and listen to dialogue and all this kind of stuff. So as he's taking it off, he sees this guy and he starts to talk to him a second or two about but he knows who he is. And he knows it's the studio. So he takes the helmet and throws it on top of the guy's head. Now without any air you can't breathe. There's no air connected to it. So now it's like he's basically suffocating the dude grabs him by the tie through hangs him over the tank, feet almost dangling. He's just there like this can't breathe. And he says if he falls, the guy's not going to make it. I mean, again, not something you want to do in today's world in any time period. But it's fascinating to hear these mythical stories. He has like if you ever come on my set again, I will kill you. And then he throws him back on they pull the head off. He got out of the car got on the plane. And and that was the last time any suit ever showed up on this set of dates? No, it's great. Yeah, that's called negotiations. That is a that's a James Cameron negotiation. And I've heard he has softened over the years. I mean, I you know, I've heard he's, I knew a lot of people who work with him on Titanic. And I've heard the stories, and also on avatar, but he's still James Cameron. He's always gonna be Jeff King, because he's frustrated because he's, he's playing at a level that most human beings aren't theirs. And I always tell people, if there's one, if there's if he's basically the only human being on the planet, arguably, that could make avatar who could walk into a studio and go, I need 500 million. I'm going to take about three or four years to develop this technology. It's going to be about an IP that no one's ever heard of. I'm creating a new IP and it hopefully it's gonna work. Who else? No one's not getting that Fincher is not getting that Spielberg. Not getting that, that no one else on the planet is going to get that, and then also be able to pull it off. Like, he's one of the few people that could do it. So anyway, that's enough about Mr. Cameron. I just got it. We just got excited about the new master class, I just want to talk about it. But anyway, well, we're here to talk about you and what you do, sir, how did you get into the business.
So kind of a little bit of a long story that goes back all the way to, um, Star Wars, the initial release that film, and I saw it as a little kid, my dad took me to see it, actually, I didn't want to see it. I was added, like, I don't know, some little camp or whatever. And all the kids were talking about, and I hadn't seen it yet. So I'm like, I'm sick of this movie before even seeing it. But my dad had heard about lines. So we took off from work early, and we went to go see this film. And I walked in there, just some little kid from a Podunk town in Georgia, and came out of there, knowing what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. And it was his profound an experience. I mean, it's in a theater. And so that sort of set that path in motion. Now, the logical part of me was like, crazy making movies for a living, you might as well might as well told my parents, I wanted to do crack, you know, it's like, oh, I'm gonna grow up, be a crack dealer. You know, it's kind of perceived that way. And, of course, they would be like, Oh, god, he's gonna be living on our couch for the rest of his life. But it's set that in motion, I'd never haven't had anything move me in that way. And so that sort of launched that career a tried a bunch of different things. You know, because cognitively, I'm like, okay, you know, the, the odds of making it in our businesses are slim. But eventually, I just came back to it, like, you know, if I don't try this, but don't do it, I'll regret it for the rest of my life, there's a inch that has to be scratched, I've got to at least if I try and fail, all right, I can deal with that. I can live with that. But I have to try it. And so that's what I did led to film school, at the North Carolina School, the arts at the University of North Carolina School, the art school of filmmaking. And from there, I started working in production, and did a ton of production. And, you know, back then my thought was when movies get made on the set, it was only later that you figure out now movies get made and boardrooms shot, and they get shot on a set. But at the time, you know, I was all about that. While I was pursuing a career in production, I was also pursuing screenwriting kind of trying to do both and balance the two, production career was doing extremely well. So it didn't leave a lot of time for screenwriting. But I was part of a screenwriting Association. And we had this outreach program where we would teach screenwriting classes and so forth. And so I was I was tapped to do that. So I was teaching these screenwriting classes. And one day, my wife made the observation that, you know, when you come home from your classes, you're all like, excited and stoked and really happy. And when you come back from a set, you're kind of awful and miserable. And so you know, of course, when your wife makes a suggestion, it's kind of okay, but listen. But I realized she was on to something, there was something rewarding about teaching that I wasn't getting from making movies, oddly enough, you know, and so I decided to make the career shift there. And it happened actually, I was working on I'm Have you ever saw cabin fever? A raw film?
Sure. Sure. Sure.
Will Hicks 13:33 Yeah. So I was working on that. And there was one more morning where the rest of the crew got wrong directions from locations. So everybody was lost. And I was already there, because my team had been working on the set the previous week, so I know how to get there. And it was just as pre dawn morning, it was freezing cold all the stars in the sky. And nobody was there. And so I had a moment to think and reflect which is rare. When you work in film. Normally, it's next thing next thing next thing you're always slammed and had an epiphany. And in that moment, I was like, You know what, I'm going to shift my career I'm going to I'm going to teach so that that led to led to us sitting here right now.
Alex Ferrari 14:15 There you go.
Will Hicks 14:17 There's guns out.
Alex Ferrari 14:19 Yeah, it's, uh, I came up to the similar. I came up with like, I don't want to be a PA anymore after like, you know, it's three o'clock in the morning and I'm out here. I gotta figure something else out. I'm like, hey, there's a there's a computer at the office that edits called an avid let me learn that air conditioned, maybe some carpal tunnel it I think that'd be a good place for me to make my bones. And that's how I started as well.
Unknown Speaker 14:43 Yeah, it's funny. It's just the different paths that you go down. And I was thankful for all my experiences, because they informed the teaching, obviously. But I was really fascinated by the form. And you know, looking back to that, that day, a long time ago, in a theater far, far away. And looking back to that moment, what I realized is, I couldn't figure out why this movie star wars again, affected me So, and I wanted to know why. And so that sort of set me on that journey. So in academia, at least I get to study the form, and the purity and it's, there's a purity to it, it's kind of like being at the temple. And you don't have to worry about, you know, some, the producers coming through saying, hey, you need to make these changes for reasons that have nothing to do with the story. And it's understandable from their perspective, I get it. But it's no I can study the purity of the craft, and really dive into it.
Alex Ferrari 15:38 And you also you're in good company, because it also launched many other careers, that movie that started it started out, and not to go back to James Cameron. But that was one of the reasons why he jumped in, as well as because after watching Star Wars, it's like, well, I got, I got to make a movie.
Unknown Speaker 15:52 It's, it's, it's funny. So one of the first days of film school when I when I went there, they gathered the incoming class. And so they're, you know, I don't know, 100 of us or so in there. And all the professors were up front, and they asked me what movie inspired you to make movies, you know, and somebody said, you know, the searchers because I was a DS favorite movie, I'm like, Alright, suck up. But somebody said, you know, citizen K, and then somebody said, Star Wars. And then another person said, Star Wars. And they asked a few other people, then another person said, Star Wars. So finally, the professor's you could tell they were fed up, and they just finally said, Alright, how many of you here were inspired by Star Wars to make movies, and two thirds of that class raised their hand? Me among me among them. And I sat there and sort of taken all that in all my holy crap. A I'm like, you know, I'm home. I'm with I'm with my peeps. But B, I realized that was the impact of that movie. It inspired an entire generation of filmmakers. Not only you know, people in general, but actual filmmakers who were somehow touched by that film, and then wanted to go out in pursue this crazy art form of ours.
Alex Ferrari 16:02 And the funny thing is, though, the person who said that, that Citizen Kane inspired them, I think that's absolutely yes. Because I love Citizen Kane. I think it's, you know, it's it's, you know, it's, it's, it's what it is, it's it was groundbreaking film, but there wasn't like a swatch of people like you, and especially your generation in sitting down in, like, Well, I was sitting down watching Citizen Kane the other day, and like, No, you watched it as a game because you were introduced to Citizen Kane factoid. It's not a movie that just kind of pops off and you're like, oh, that black and white film looks fantastic. But no. But the Star Wars.
Unknown Speaker 17:47 Yeah, that was, that was kind of my, my kind of running joke about it. It's like, yeah, you know, what, Kung Fu Panda two was seen by more people than Citizen Kane in 60 years. And it's now does that mean? It's that's a measure of its artistic success? No. But But when you think about it, I mean, if you make a movie, and nobody sees it, it's like, the movie doesn't exist. And those filmmakers, and I'll stick with Kung Fu Panda, too, for whatever. But, you know, they had a chance to share their message to share their art to share what they think with other people. And to me, that's what film is all about. It's about it's about sharing your sensibilities about what you think about the world. And we're able to share it with a lot of different people. And yeah, not a knock on Cain actually, like Kino love.
Alex Ferrari 18:35 Exactly. But it's but it's not one of those films that you're like, there's not there's nobody has, you know, Citizen Kane dolls and action figures and Citizen Kane on the wall. Generally speaking, that's just not one of those films. It is a classic film, and it should be studied. And what he did was remarkable. And Orson Welles is a master and all that kind of stuff, but it's not the movie that inspired a generation to go to the movies to become filmmakers. It's just not but Star Wars. Absolutely launched. God, how many in 2001 was another one, like how many? You know, people saw that and like, well, I got to do that now.
Will Hicks 19:15 Yeah, that's exactly it. And, and I, you know, ironically, you know, it's not that I make or would write science fiction. It was just it moved me somehow. And that was really the kind of the key piece of it. And when you find that films, I try to you know, advise my students that whatever film that is, if it was Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and it somehow touched you don't ever let that movie go. Because it had something in it that said something to you that inspired you no matter what it is. Like my favorite guilty pleasure movies. The old Flash Gordon film, Juju?
Alex Ferrari 19:53 Yeah, of course. Fantastic. Guilty pleasure, man. When you put his hand in that thing is You don't know. Oh my god, it still freaks me out.
Will Hicks 20:04 Yeah. And I usually like, you know, it's kind of, you know, teaching film and stuff you're supposed to like, the other films, shall we say? Yes. And I'm like, Nah, there's something about it. I mean, just, it's the weirdest combination of things ever. You have this Art Deco style from the 30s. You have Queen doing the soundtrack, you know, science fiction film. And somehow, it's like, they give you this recipe for a slushie. It's like, really, you're gonna put all this crap in it, and it comes out. It's like this awesome, slushy. And you never would guess it. So I don't just that one, that one. And there's certain degree of camp, that I really appreciate it.
Alex Ferrari 20:41 Yeah. And as, as film students, or as students of the craft, everyone listening to here is obviously studying the craft and wants to learn more about the craft. There are those films that touch you like Star Wars touch most, you know, huge amount of people. And you know, there's certain films that when you were younger, hit you. But then when you get older, and you watch it again, you're like, yeah, that didn't age. Well. Like I remember watching, I remember watching Bloodsport, and I was like, Oh, my God, this is the greatest film I've ever seen. And then I watched it the other day, I'm like, Oh, this doesn't this does not hold up. So I've now made the choice of not going back to watch full versions of some of these old movies that I have wonderful recollections of, because they they feel, I have a feeling to that, like, oh, that movie meant that to me. But then I go back and watch it, and it ruins it sometimes. So it depends. But some movies transcend Star Wars you can watch right now and completely holds and continue will continue to. And I think as a storytelling tool, or lesson you can learn is George did such an amazing job with the structure of that story using the hero's journey at such a expert level. I mean, he was literally talking to Joseph Campbell, about it, as he was writing it, it's done so surgically, that it will hold forever. Regardless of sometimes maybe some of the visual effects might be a little janky it things like that. But overall, though, it will hold because of the story. And because of the structure, and those characters and how he was able to weave them all together, that they will never I don't think that'll ever age. I mean, it's still my kids watch it now their new generation who've grown up watching really high end visual effects and really high end storytelling, and they're actually much more literate story consumers than you are I was because we didn't have as much content to consume as we were growing up. And it still hits them. It still goes right to the heart of it. And that's something that's you want that magic and your stories and your scripts.
Will Hicks 22:49 Yeah, and I would, I would say that comes that pours out of the characters, pours out of the characters pours out of the tale that's being told. I like to think and I teach a class called deconstructing Star Wars. Where we got into this, that's amazing. So yeah, no surprise, I suppose given my background, but but looking at it, to me, the Big Bang of Star Wars, where it all starts is that moment when Luke is walking out looking at the twin sunsets. And that's where it all it's, that's the big bang of that entire universe is just some kid stuck on a farm wanting adventure.
Alex Ferrari 23:27 And that's everybody, you that's everybody. That's how universal is that? It's not a diet and not a piece and not a piece of dialogue. And that image by the way, it's not like it is just the imagery. I mean, we know who the character is at that point. And he's a young boy living on a farm. But that moment, there's not like, wow, I wish I had some adventure. Now there was no dialogue there. He just looks and everywhere around the world. Wherever you are, you just go Yep, that's what we want. We want that thing we want to get out of where we are at one stage or another in our lives. We want to get out of where we are, or just go to another place or go on a vacation, or go on an adventure at once. And we said before it's it's it's remarkable. You're right. But that is the Big Bang of the entire Star Wars universe I would agree with you.
Will Hicks 24:14 And it's interesting, because, you know, why do you go to movies to do the same thing, alright, to experience something that you can't necessarily experience in real life. Or if it's a realistic film, you know, experiencing real life on steroids or something like that. But you know, to me, it's as much a film about the about filmmaking as it as anything else. And then you touch on a really important point. It's something I discussed quite a bit in my book, but not the plug the book. But it really kind of cuts to the heart of how cinema communicate story. And it's that idea, that scene is silent. And the reason it works is because it's silent. And we the audience, then insert whatever, you know, we could be thinking, Oh, yeah, Luke is checking out Why are there two sons, and we could think that it would work. Or you know, obviously what the filmmaker intended, which is just longing for something. But notice, because at silence, we put our thoughts in there. And as a result, whatever works for you may be different than works for me. But we both have the opportunity to do it.
Alex Ferrari 25:24 As opposed to having up Yeah, other than having the on the nose dialogue and like, wow, I wish I had some adventure, like which we see sometimes instead of just like not just shish shish, keep what we were talking before we came on about, about finding inspiration or story elements from different weirdest places ever. And I was like, Oh, I still remember this David Fincher commercial. Because I love the David Fincher, I've studied all his commercial work and music, video work. And some of the stuff that he does is, you know, they think of a lot of people think of him as a visual storyteller, and, you know, very technical and his films are aesthetically, you know, searchable, almost it really are. And they don't give him enough credit for emotion. And character development. I think that's, you know, I mean, you look at seven or you look at Fight Club and things like that. But this commercial was so simple. But it was clear for Lani of forlani, I think her name is she was the girl from men and black. And I'm in black, mutual black. And she's sitting in a restaurant with an older gentleman look good looking older gentlemen, in a fancy restaurant, and she's a much younger green, she must be in her early 20s. He must be in his probably late 40s, early 50s. And in there having dinner and then all of a sudden, it's raining outside, and there's a big glass window in the restaurant. And this young, strapping young guy who has desperation in his face starts very Allah, the graduate banging on the on the glass going, you know, him and everyone's like, Oh, my God, Who is this? And she sees it. And she's like, making the decision at that point. Do I stay with this older stable guy? Or do I go on this crazy adventure? With this young one with, I have no idea what's gonna happen. And she decides to get up goes outside, they kiss they embrace in the rain, everyone starts clapping. And of course, then you pan down and go Levi's. But the story was there, and I put all everything I just explained to you. I made that up. Meaning like, I don't know who that get that could have been her father. But I don't think it was, you know, I actually implanted the storyline in there. And I, I added the whole thing like this, this guy, that guy could be super rich, that kid and he could be very successful, I don't know. But the way he left it open like that you implant your own emotions there. And your own storyline, and just like the two moons and look.
Will Hicks 27:51 Yeah, and that's, And that, to me is the power of cinema. It's that ability. And it's one of those things we you know, talk about, like a novelist, for instance, they'll give you a story, and you supply the visuals, you know, based on the words, film, we're just the opposite. We're giving you the visuals, and asking you to start assembling that story, put the story together. Now, obviously, everything is highly guided, and just like in the commercial, but it's an idea No, no, no. If you want to create meaning, it's done by the person watching it, and heavily guided by the filmmaker who's presenting these two images and saying, All right, put them together. And that's, it's it's an interesting thing. That's one of the things not that it's not, you know, interview about Star Wars, I suppose. But going back Star Wars was a very experiential film. And think about it, Lucas creates an entire galaxy, buy from a bunch of dudes sitting around in rubber suits in a bar. And you imply and we add all of that stuff to it. We're like, Oh, yeah, where'd they come from? And what's their backstory, and so forth? And so we start adding all these layers to it. It's a it's an, it's a playground for your imagination, to then start filling in all those pieces. And then you watch the film to see what did I filled in correctly? Did I not put it in correctly and so forth? And so really masteral films, I think that's the craft. Usually, a statement I say that gets me in trouble is a movie is not a story. It's evidence that a story is being told. Oh, that's okay.
Alex Ferrari 29:29 That's actually a really interesting way of looking at it. It that's Can you can you dig into that a little bit? Because I'm curious where you're going with that?
Will Hicks 29:38 Well, it's the idea that so much of what we do in in filmic storytelling and cinematic narrative is indirect. And you even touched on it you know, talking about Oh, you don't write on the nose. Well, why not? that'll tell the story the fastest way possible. Then you can pack more story in Mm hmm. But it clunks it almost always clunks in me Okay, why? You know, why don't we want to be told these things? What do we want to do here? And we want to figure it out, we want to figure it out for ourselves. And so much of cinematic narrative is indirect. And it led me to the conclusion like, Oh, wait, we're not. It's not a pure story in the sense that we're sitting down around a campfire and telling you these things, but rather, we're showing you all of these events, and in allowing you the audience member to put it together. In a very, once again, it's guided, it's very guided, but putting it together way to come up with a story collaboratively. Film is in me, it drives me crazy when people say, oh, films a passive medium. No, it's not interactive. Yeah, it's in the joystick isn't here. You know, the joystick is in here. It's in your mind. And you start and you start watching the film saying, Okay, well, why don't you say that, so forth. And then the film explores those things, really smart films are interactive by nature,
Alex Ferrari 31:03 right, and you start thinking about subtext, I mean, subtext is not a subtext is not efficient. That is not efficient in the story. Like you can't, you can't, when you're telling a story around the campfire subtext is a difficult thing, to have a conversation about, like you can't be like she said, clean the dishes. But what she really meant to tell her husband is that you don't love me anymore. So and that's hard to say. But it's so much easier in the visual medium, to say, because of acting, because of environment because of those nuances, that is very difficult to put in the written word, extremely difficult to put into a word. But in cinema, you're allowed to do that. And again, we'll go back to that scene with the two moons, if you would have said that, like, Hey, I wish I had adventure. It doesn't have the same umph to it. If you would just if you say the exact same thing in your head, because you feel like you're being pulled along that you're part of this. You are Luke, if someone tells you what they're feeling, you're not Luke anymore. And that's where I think a lot of screenplays and films fail is that they don't give the audience the opportunity to identify and become that character. So you know, when we watch Indiana Jones, which now part five is being filmed as we speak, Hey, man, I'm there. Why not? I am to look, you know, will it will it nuke the fridge? I don't know. But But when you're watching Raiders of the Lost Ark, or Last Crusade or Temple of Doom, your your indie. When you watch a James Bond movie, you're James Bond, you know, and you go along these adventures with these, but the subtleties of what they say how they, I mean, Indiana Jones is full of subjects. I mean, every word he says, That's some sort of subtext, you know, oh, my God, it's so amazing the way they the way they crafted that again, George Lucas and Steven Spielberg on that one. It's, it's remarkable. But you're absolutely right. I really never kind of put it to words like you just like how we've been having this discussion. And I hope people listening can really understand the power of the interactivity of the audience, and only masters of the craft, both of screenwriting, but I think also of filmmaking, because it turns into, like, there's only so much you can do on the page, and then it then you have to give it over to the actors and the director, and the day, because some things happen on the day that you just can't write. So it is that collaborative art form. But it's those masters like Hitchcock. I mean, I mean, he's one of the ones that everyone has to watch. But Hitchcock is one of those filmmakers that he even said he's like, I wish one day that I could just have a machine that I could touch a button and hit that motion, and touch a button hit that motion play the audience like a piano. And that's what his films, I mean, you go back and watch psycho. I mean, it's just a masterclass in all I mean, there's a there's a period North by Northwest, there's that period for vertigo that he had like six or seven, his his, his his time. They're all massive. They're just so masterful, and you just go along with it. And they still hold up even though they're older films and things like that. But the storytelling still holds up and you're you're along for the ride. I mean, you are. You are. Oh God, what's your name? in the in the shower? Generally, generally you are Janet Lee. And when that figure comes in with the with the juice, you feel like you've been you've been stabbed. It's fascinating to watch that sequence. It's amazing to watch.
Will Hicks 34:52 Yeah, and with and within the context of the film itself because back in the day, Janet Lee was the star
Alex Ferrari 35:00 There's, of course,
Will Hicks 35:01 and of course, you know, no movie kills off at Star halfway through, and then you're going, Okay, well, who do I hang out with now? Because, you know, what's name Anthony Perkins?
Alex Ferrari 35:12 like to hang out with this weirdo?
Will Hicks 35:14 Yeah. And, and you don't have a choice you have to? It's like, Okay, well, I don't have a choice. I have to this is now my main character. So just the guts. That was just the brilliance of the film in my mind. Because it played with your expectations. You're like, okay, she'll somehow get out of it.
Alex Ferrari 35:30 No, she's gone. What do we do now? But there's but there's something to be said there about the Curiosity aspect of it. Now. Now you're in now I'm hooked, you are engaged, because all your preconceived notions have been thrown out the window. And and Hitchcock knew that when he was making that film, he knew that you thought that she's the star, she's going to keep going. And he's completely flipped it. And now you're just like, wait a minute. If they could kill off the main actress, they could kill anybody off at any moment for the rest of this film. So I need to pay attention now. And then Wes Craven did it as well with scream when he killed Drew Barrymore at the beginning of the river. Yeah, like, you know, she's the bachelor I was gonna go to, arguably arguably the biggest star in that movie. She's like, Oh, yeah, it's the Drew Barrymore movie, and she's on the poster and everything. And first 10 minutes. You're like, holy cow. It's, I call it now The Walking Dead effect, which is the when you watch the series, The Walking Dead. And there's other series that kill off people, I think, against the throne. I never watched games with them. But I know that there's no one safe, that that no one's safe thing keeps the audience at edge, especially if it's you've especially a long, long form, like television, or streaming that you can emotionally attached over, you know, that, you know, sometimes seasons after seasons. And you're like, oh, my god, they're gone now. But knowing that at any moment, it's gone. That's such a powerful storytelling technique.
Will Hicks 37:04 It is. And it's set in motion. So now we're like, okay, nobody's safe. And you have to watch because you're not quite sure what could possibly happen next. And it's kind of like the, I guess, for example, from classical music, like the surprise Symphony. And you get this little bang, it's like, okay, and you never know when it's gonna show up again. So you have to always create that level of tension in there. And films do the same thing. for Canada, the same thing you want to go there.
Alex Ferrari 37:31 And that's why I love Bohemian Rhapsody. Maybe the craziest, craziest pop song ever written? And, and you just sit there like, Wait, is that an opera is that not rock now it's now it's a ballad, like what's going on. But you know, that will go that's another world we can go down later. But it's very, very similar, though, it's like you will completely don't know what's going to happen. And if you as a screenwriter can, as a storyteller can't keep your audience guessing. In a comedy in a thriller, and horror in an action, you will work for the rest of your life, and you will always get paid to write. But bottom line, if you can keep the audience or the reader or the whoever's consuming your content on not knowing what's happening next. You want you want because we're so educated, for better or worse, everything's done. It's so hard to surprise us. That's why when we are surprised with a twist, you know, remember six cents, Jesus Christ, what six that's came out. I mean, that one of the greatest, one of the greatest twist endings of all time, he built the entire career off of that now, he's like, I have to have to do twist endings all the time. You know, it's, it's like he had to build this career around twist endings. But that was one of the greatest twist endings, ever. In your art as an audience member, if you can, and that's why that movie, I mean, it's essentially, potentially a drama slash ghost story, not really particularly scary, some of the scary parts, but it's essentially a drama. And we're all like, okay, we're all walking down. The story does this very nice internet. But when that thing happens, everything from that moment before gets rewound in your head, and you're just like, oh, wait a minute, well, and it just blows people's minds. And it was just remarkable. As a storyteller. I have such respect for me. I mean, what he's been able to do in his career as a writer is remarkable.
Will Hicks 39:32 And it kind of taps into the idea of, you know, really good ending is not I didn't see that coming. A really good ending is I should have seen that comment. And you go back and watch. So for instance, you go back and you know, watch Sixth Sense, like it's all there. Oh. And that goes back to that idea of allowing the audience to put these elements together kind of goes back way back to the day. You Billy Wilder said Ernst Lubitsch, you said let the audience had two plus two. They love you for it. And so it's the idea that we're sitting here looking at this movie as an audience member sticking with six cents for a little bit. And going, Okay, yeah, this poor kid, you see, and all the clues are there that Oh, yeah. As well as once again spoiler, you know, in among us these days. But we don't put it together that way, because the way the film is presented, and then when you get the twist, that's the key you needed to understand to then go back and look up. No wonder she didn't talk to him. He's not there. Because only the Kip Hailey Joe Osmond. Because name is only he can see that people. And so it's it's playing with his audience expectations. And saying, okay, here's it's think of a movie is kind of like a q&a session. And think about the questions the audience is going to have and how they're going to be assembling the information you're presenting to them. And then you start to play around with it. And allow them to draw the conclusion that, oh, this isn't quite right. And then you can you can flip it on them and create those reversals, and create that idea of unpredictability. It's really hard when you think about it. You know, movie audiences today, in particular, are really savvy. And they're like, okay, yeah, see it coming. And if they can see that ending, coming, usually not a good thing. But the irony is, they also want the ending they want. So you know, if I have I'll go back to Star Wars, just because any easy example. If I go back, and Luke is there in the trench, you know, and use the false loop let go, you know, and invaders like I have you now and blast them in a loop just kind of goes in vaporizes. Yeah, really sucks. If you like,
Alex Ferrari 41:42 worst movie ever. You got
Will Hicks 41:44 to be kidding me an empire goes and blows up the Death Star and or blows up, you know, the Rebel base. We want that ending, we want the hero to be triumphant. We just don't want to see it coming. Because then it becomes predictable. So how do you create the predictable ending the ending we want, but make it unpredictable. And that's really the art of it? Well, I
Alex Ferrari 42:05 was just watching. I was just watching The Handmaid's Tale. And we're, as of this recording, getting towards the end of season four, not going to give any spoiler alerts. But something happens to a character there, who has a bad character. And we're all going like this guy needs to get his up is coming up in one way, shape, or form. And then as you start seeing the episode, and we've been this, this for seasons built up. So this is I mean, we've built this up, and we're waiting for the character and something, a twist happens for a second, like, oh, wait a minute, and are in our main characters doing something? And you're like, oh, wait a minute. And then I literally was sitting there with my wife looking at it. Like we're both trying to figure it out. But is she going to do this is accident happened? Where's this gonna go? Where are they? What's going on? And we're like, and we're so savvy. I mean, I'm probably a little bit more savvy, you know, story analysts than most you know, people that do this for a living. So and my wife is just been with me for so long. She's become one as well. And she'll catch up. So we're like this, this? We didn't see it coming? exactly the way it happened. Like we've looked. Oh, and then afterwards, you're like, it was perfect. Oh, my God, it was cool. Perfect. Well, like Breaking Bad, the end of Breaking Bad you like you want How do you end that? I'm not going to break. I'm not going to spoil it for anyone. But you should anyone listening to this should have seen Breaking Bad at this point, the entire series. But that ending like how do you end? arguably one of the best shows ever written? Ever, ever produced it? arguably, but what some of the best storytelling ever? How do you end it and didn't see it coming? at all completely original way they ended it. And it was so satisfying. And that's why endings of shows are so bad. So that because it's just it's just so hard.
Will Hicks 43:51 Yeah, it is. Well, you know, you think about TV, it's built to extend, you know, it's built to sustain and it's not really built, you know, we talk a lot about, you know, film, at least the origins of film. They're really meant to be self contained, not, you know, franchises, sequels and all that stuff. disregarded, but it's meant to be a self contained story, whereas TV is meant to be a sustaining story goes on and on and on. And so sometimes those endings, particularly for TV shows are really hard, because the medium is built differently, or at least the approach to the meeting is both a little bit differently.
Alex Ferrari 44:25 Now, you were talking to me off camera about this old PlayStation game called Crash Bandicoot and that you found some some gem of something in that in regards to story. Can you please elaborate?
Will Hicks 44:41 Yes, you're a bit of a backstory to it when my son was really little. And I was playing this Crash Bandicoot game he loved to watch it in watch me play this thing. But it wasn't just like the game in its entirety. It was a single level called the Great gate of all things. And check it out. If you haven't seen it, watch a walkthrough on YouTube or what have you. But this one level and I play the level and he's like, again, again, set up to play the level again, again, again, Okay, you know what you do for your kids like, Alright, so I'll play it again and again and again. And he never got tired of the single level of this game, I must have played that thing, hundreds of times, I'd play with a controller upside down and play with my eyes closed, you know, because I'm so bored of the stupid level, right. And then there was just one little sequence in there. Where, if you're familiar with the game as a platform, and it's tilted, and there's this green moss stuff on the side of it, and then a little platform down below it, so it kind of looks a little bit like that. And the green moss stuff is slippery, and may sound like the stupidest thing ever. But it hit me in that moment, that oh, we were just taught a rule, green moss is slippery. That's in video games, a very simple rule. But we were taught it without stakes, because there was a platform for you to land on. So that you would be safe. Now imagine if you just slipped off and die to be like this stupid game, not gonna go extra hard at all. And what hit me in that month, and then then the next little sequence there, they show you that Oh, you can slip backwards, you can slip forward. And it kind of explores the idea of this green moss stuff of all things. What dawned on me in that moment, watching that thing, or the Epiphany I had was, oh, that was a, that was a storytelling element. If we were to translate it to film that was set up without stakes, it was introduced before the game needed it, and could then explore it. And then the connection for me and of all things, I was watching duel, like Spielberg TV movie, and there's a shot close to the end, it's really wide shot of the truck overturned. And there's just a single wheel spinning, and then a punch in for a close up of that wheel. And I realized, Oh, that's the same thing, that element was planted in the story, to achieve the effect of just that wheel spinning at the end. And so the conclusion I drew from it was, every element in the story has to be has to be laid in before the story itself needs it. In other words, you put these elements in as storytelling devices, before you actually need them to affect the narrative affect the plot affect the characters. And so that was the conclusion I drew. And it led to all sorts of good stuff that came out of that, that simple little moment there with green moss and a crash bandicoot game from about 2001 or whatever.
Alex Ferrari 47:39 Yeah, that's actually really profound. It's a really powerful tool that good writers and good storytellers need to do. And if I may bring it back to Mr. Jimmy Cameron, if you go back to the scene in aliens, where Ripley at the beginning of the movie says, Hey, I can I can drive that loader. I'm second level certified or something like that. And I go ahead and get into it, she gets into that loader, and she starts walking around starts moving boxes and stuff. There's the plant. That's the plant. That's the plant right there. Because at the end, when she goes and fights the queen, and arguably says, the greatest line in sci fi history, get away from her ubitx. It all came together at that moment. And it's all about that setup, payoff setup payoff entity, every good movie, they'll drop a little nugget in or they'll focus on, you know, the, the, the letter opener on the desk for no reason at the beginning. And then towards the end. I'm like, that's what kills the bad guy, you know? So that is something that screenwriters really should and storytellers and directors really should focus on trying to do those plants. And, you know, set up reveal setup reveals how to reveal or pay
Will Hicks 48:57 off. And that's it. Yeah, and that's exactly the conclusion I drew as well, just the power of that technique. But it's not just the the elements within the plot itself, the content, it's actually how you how you tell the story itself, the devices you're going to use to convey the narrative. So to connect Crash Bandicoot of all things to Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, if you've ever seen that?
Alex Ferrari 49:21 It's a complete direct line. I completely see it, sir. Thank you.
Will Hicks 49:26 Yeah, we probably just lost all the rest of your audience. But no, no, if you look at it early on in that film, and they're going to show you all these different devices. So you had that scene with Jim Carrey, walking out a Barnes and Noble and into the living room of his friends. And wouldn't ask frickin scene. But then you go, Well, okay, they could have just cut you cut to the flashback of him in there with what's your deployment time and then cut back to the, to the living room, but they didn't. And you realize, oh, they're planning that as a storytelling device. In other words, Be on the lookout because we're gonna be messing with your perceptions in this movie. And we're going to be blending things like that and just cluing in the audience before the story needed to do it. And then once you've planted that device, then you can now use it because it's now familiar to the audience. And so that's what Crash Bandicoot David green moss, but the key was that little platform that was there were no stakes to it. And it was just implanting that as a rule in the story. And so really good films actually teach you how to consume the film, how to interact with the film. And back to what you were saying about plant payoff, or setup and payoff. That's allowing the audience to interact with it. In other words, yeah, you're on board with me, you caught my setup. And now you catch my payoff, and informs the audience includes the audience in that, oh, I get this movie, I understand it. I'm with it. And so then you start looking for those elements. And it just adds the entertainment. So anyway, it's about teaching the audience.
Alex Ferrari 51:02 Yeah. So then we can go back to Star Wars, again, with the plant and pay off, which is the force, you set the force up so much, George sets the force up so much at the beginning. And throughout the film, about the force, the force, the force, the jet has the force, the force. And at the end, when he's down, that he's about to shoot, and he's using his technology is that use the Force. That's the moment that everybody goes, Oh, my God, it's the power is not outside, the power is within myself. And that is such a powerful message. And it's so subtle, and it's it's wrapped around a, you know, a serial sci fi action movie. But that message hits so close to home for humanity, that any struggles that we have, if we actually look inside, we will find the answer. That's what that is. And that's what the forces and that's why people you know, there's actual people, you run the religions around Jedi, and all that stuff, which there's, there's books, there's the Jedi Bible, and there's all this kind of stuff. I mean, I'm speaking from people who obviously aren't watching this, I have a life size Yoda behind me, obviously, everyone knows that I'm a Star Wars fan. So but I do not go that far deep. I've never dressed up. Not that there's anything wrong with it. But I've never done anything I've ever gone that far. But that concept is so so so powerful. And one of the reasons why that film, and you obviously teach a class in this so are you on board with what I'm saying?
Will Hicks 52:36 Oh, absolutely. Yeah, it's that universal aspect of it. No, I've never been a you know, on a desert planet on a in a galaxy far, far away. And my dad isn't Darth Vader spoiler. I can I can relate to that notion that there's some there's something else there and that that ability is inside you. And even Vader has that line in the original Star Wars. You know, don't be too proud of the technological terror you've constructed. Yeah, not about the technology dude. It's about believing in yourself and, and then diving into kind of Lucas's background. And what led to the making of Star Wars. You see it this very personal story that's laid inside this huge, you know, your Death Stars and all that other stuff. It's at its heart. It's a personal story. That is I think it gets the best of both worlds.
Alex Ferrari 53:25 Yeah, it's about his dad. It's about his relationship with his father. Me. That's what he's very much. So that's what do I mean, that's what yeah, it's what what Star Wars is about. It's a personal story. So there's that added level as well, that you can sense there's an authenticity there in that relationship with with Darth Vader. And the best thing about it is that setup isn't paid off until the second movie, because we don't know that he's his father. We don't know that until, and arguably the greatest twist ending in movie history, you know, success aside, his empire strikes back office.
Will Hicks 54:03 Oh, no, that's money as a holy smokes. Now, ironically, at least my understanding is that wasn't the original plan. And that sort of came about it resolved a lot of story issues. And like, Oh, yeah, let's make him his dad. It works perfectly. And indeed it did. But originally, he wasn't the dad. But then you go, okay, Darth Vader, dark father, or whatever. But I think you're looking at that. It really is a telling moment. And it's one that I kind of think about a lot in that one particular class is when Obi Wan Luke asks him, you know, what about my dad, you know, everyone's like, Well, you know, Vader betrayed and murdered your father. And there's this little pause there. And I asked my students, you know, what's Obi Wan thinking right there and almost all of them are, it's like a is about the line. But the original intent was no it was just something pay. It was a painful episode, at least my understanding that Lucas didn't quite have that Father thing figured out that came about as a result of writing a parser expect,
Alex Ferrari 55:10 right. And that's the thing too is things that we see in cinema history that we're like, well, that's exactly the way it was supposed to be. wasn't at all the way the initial people were the initial creators we're thinking of I was talking to somebody the other day, who was telling me you should read the first draft of back the future. And then read the shooting draft back completely different movie. Did you ever read the first draft the Back to the Future?
Will Hicks 55:34 I've not I've not read the first draft, you should send it to me.
Alex Ferrari 55:37 So the first draft, there is no Clock Tower. There is no lightning. They were going to go to a nuclear power plant to recharge the car to go back in time. Oh, wow. That was weird. That was a whole thing. But then the studio said, Hey, guys, we don't got the budget for this. You're gonna have to do it on the backlot. And then Zemeckis and Gail both the Bob's both hooked up, there's a clock tower. I don't know what lightning hit it. And that's enough energy. All right, let's do that. Brilliant solution, a much better solution. It but but that's the thing, and a lot of times is there is Kismet that happens with with storytelling and things that I mean, obviously the one of the great scenes in Raiders of the Lost Ark is that whole scene where this guy is, you know, the wielding the knife and and there was I think Spielberg said he they shot it like six or seven times it was a full action sequence till Finally, Harrison just like pulled out a gun and shot them. They're like, well, that's the take, why didn't we figure that out? Before that wasn't on the page. But on the day, it just made the most part one of the best laughs of the entire movie.
Will Hicks 56:46 Oh, yeah, it totally takes what works. Were expecting this big, huge fight sequence. And if I recall correctly, like, I think Harrison Ford was sick with stomach flu like regular folks on the set were sick, I couldn't really do it. And oh, what an elegant solution. And it kind of goes back to that whole idea of limitations, fostering creativity, and coming up with a much more creative solution than what we intended. Because like, yeah, we can show all this. But, you know, just because we can show it doesn't mean we should. And I think the original Star Wars benefited from that, in the sense that I can't show you I don't have the budget to show you the entire galaxy. And so as a result, I'm going to show you a little snippets of it, which then allowed the audience to fill all that in. And, you know, I think when we look back at some of these films from you know, back in the day that were really well crafted, but they had all these limitations to what they could show. That was indeed exactly what they created, was a place for audiences to put the, to add to the story to interact with it and so forth. And so, you know, today, and even Lucas talked a little bit about it. He's like, Yeah, sometimes I have gotten my vision on the screen, and nobody really much cared for it. Okay. But to me, it was it was always, you know, when you George Lucas, you can do that. But to me, it was like, Oh, this is cutting against what cinema does best, which is creating these moments and allowing us to find meaning in them. When we provide the meaning as filmmakers, when we complete the picture, we kind of nuke the audience, we remove part of the entertainment value of it, because it's your vision and not our vision. Oh, it kind of goes back. Gosh, always relating back to Star Wars today, for some reason, you know, to the idea. I saw a picture of Lucas, you know, wearing a Han shot first t shirt. I'm like, dude, you don't want to change it, of course, on choppers. But it's really funny because then you go well, Lucas's version of Han, the character is very different than our version of Han. And we took in, so we're like, no, the character would never do that. But then Who are we? I mean, we're telling the dude who created the character, you know, like, No, your character would never do that. It's a co construction. It's us the audience saying no.
Alex Ferrari 59:04 And that's why there's so that's why it's there's so much vitriol towards Lucas sometimes about Star Wars because people are so passionate about the like, the prequels were an abomination. How dare you though the re releases were an abomination. How dare you and there's so much passion about it. And I always have, I'm always from the, from the school of thought, I'm like, it's his. It's his man. It's like, it's his painting. Yeah, if he wants to change a couple strokes, that's up to him, man. That's not art. Like we can enjoy it. But, but that's how it's his it's his blessing and his curse. He was so good as engaging the audience, but now he's got to deal with
Will Hicks 59:43 Yeah, and and then we go, that's not that's not how I put it together, dude. And so no matter what he does, it's wrong. And I think you know, as a filmmaker, he's like, Alright, well, you know, that is but I want to tell the story. So I will and, you know, go on for that. But at the end of the day, I think when something is so beloved, it becomes No, this is not how we built it. And, you know, it's like, well, that wasn't my intended at all anyway, as a filmmaker, so it is kind of a Yeah, it was a blessing and a curse, I think you put it quite well.
Alex Ferrari 1:00:16 And I think that the going back a little bit to that Indiana Jones scene, playing if you as a screenwriter can play with the expectations of the audience. So that perfect scene illustrates that so wonderfully, they were expecting a full blown fight sequence. And then in a second, we don't get it. And it's such a pleasurable surprise, because you're playing with our expectations. Hitchcock did that with the psychos with psycho and killing off the lead actress. If you can play with the audience's expectations a bit. In your writing. Again, you will work forever.
Will Hicks 1:00:52 Yeah, it's it's your message to the audience is what you're doing. And you're you're taking in, it's tough, because you go, well, gosh, and audience is made up of a bunch of individual human beings all with different, you know, thoughts and ideas. And so alright, how do I do that? And you actually create an audience, you can you build an audience, in your film, films start off as you know, the successful ones, in my opinion, start off as being aiming at a very broad, you know, sensibility, and then begin to narrow and become more self referential, they start teaching you things. Here's the teacher saying films teach. But then they start teaching you things inside the film. And those are those setups, and then the payoffs come along. And what happens is you turn a group of individuals into an audience. And by the end of the film, the film, most films typical becoming increasingly self referential, they'll rely back on things they've shown you earlier in the movie, in order to pay off their endings. And so films that do that tend to do really well, because it takes into account Yeah, I've got a bunch of individual people who are watching this thing, I can't please them all by no stretch. And I'm going to be communicating in a very indirect way. But what you do is you start to guide the audience into that place where you want them to be in the reaction you want to get out of them at the end. And so it's just inefficient, but that's the that's the power of cinema, at least in my mind.
Alex Ferrari 1:02:18 Yeah. And in there's also some films that and some stories that age, they're ahead of their time, and they age much better than they were when they first initially were released. So a film like Fight Club, which we're talking about the twist ending, it's something that you need, again, it's very much like the success where you like, Oh, my God, it's Yeah, and they go back and show you all the things you're like, you should have seen the signs you should see Santa but that story, I mean, you if it's still one of my favorite films of all time, you watch it today, it holds, it holds so brilliantly, even though some of the technology might be dated as far as like, you know, the computers and the windows and things like that. But the style of it, the storytelling power of that film, I still argue is probably it's probably his best maybe other than the social network. Because to make the social network interesting is you are a master. You're a master, man. It's a story. Remember, when that came out? And you're like, oh, they're gonna tell the story of Facebook cares about the story of Facebook. cares, in look. I mean,
Will Hicks 1:03:26 good. No, I was gonna say, yeah, both those films are superb, actually, social network is another movie I teach, and one of my classes just exquisitely structured. But if you watch it, it's going to use the setups and payoffs just brilliantly. And it's going to use some of the techniques we were talking about here in terms of being able to insert us inside the mind of that character, and how it does it. It just really slick. And like, okay, yeah, there's the craft. When we look at film, and in terms of being an interactive medium, and involving the audience, it's a collaboration with the audience. It's q&a.
Alex Ferrari 1:04:05 Oh, yeah. It is actually q&a. You're always asking questions. What is he going to do next? What is she going to do next? How are they going to meet what's going to happen? Is the bad guy going to get away? So it's always these questions and answers going back and forth. The audience. Good movies are. And I always like I always like analyzing bad movies. Like why doesn't this work? And you know, there's my favorite bad movie of all time is the room. But the reason why the room is so bad is that because I always say I always say this is like when movies transcend. They're so bad that they transcend to good. That's one of those movies, there's just bad movies, and the room is so bad that it becomes good. And if you analyze the room, which is hard because it's so bad, nothing works. Nothing works on a on a storage level on an acting level on a craft. level, none of it works. But the only reason why people stand in line to watch that movie, it's not because it's a bad movie is because the creator was trying to create a good movie. And that's what came out the authenticity of because he didn't call out to make the one of the greatest cult bad movies of all time. He truly believed he was making a masterpiece. And that's what made it so.
Will Hicks 1:05:26 Oh, yeah, that's the you know, the shark NATO's of the world. Which
Alex Ferrari 1:05:31 shark NATO knew. But shark Neato knew what they were doing the second they came up with sharks in the tornado. So it's and they tweak in it, but like, you don't see the people in lining outside to see Sharknado in theaters. You know, there's not people with fan clubs about Sharknado. Like not really the room. It's a frickin world life. Oh, yeah, I mean, we go to remember birdemic remember that thing? Again? birdemic. There. So that was conscious. Yeah, it was a conscious thing. And you can tell a troll to, you know, when you watch troll two, which I By the way, I felt my soul die a little bit after I watched that movie. Because it was so bad. I actually enjoyed the documentary about the movie much more than the movie itself. It was so bad. It was I can't I literally died a little bit when I saw that film. But that was a film that the director had a vision and was thinking and is making the greatest, you know, horror movie of all time. And there's, you're right, but it's it has to be unintentional. If you go in intentionally, it doesn't
Will Hicks 1:06:30 work. Yeah. And that was kind of the thing with birdemic. That sort of like, Ah, yeah, it just doesn't feel and it ties back into of all things. Truth. And it's that idea, you know, I have a filmmaker who's trying to capture truth, and you employ the audience consensus. And if we get the sense that they're just trying, they're purposely trying to achieve this effect by making it bad, then it undermines the truth of the film, and then we walk or we don't get quite the same reaction.
Alex Ferrari 1:06:59 That's a really, that's a really great way of looking at that. I never really thought about that. But that is I use the word authenticity, but it is truth. It is the truth. As a filmmaker, you you have this, this kind of social contract with the audience, that you're going to try to entertain them and you're going to try to do it and the truth of the story, obviously, Star Wars is not a true story. But there is truth in it. There is universal messages in it that ring true. That's why it's so universally Beloved, throughout the world, and we're still talking about a movie. That's what yours is now. I mean, 50 over 50 Is it over 50 years old at this point? Almost. Almost. 50 almost 50 Yeah, almost 50 Yeah. 77. So yeah, so it's almost 50 years old now. And I hate to say there's not a lot of films that are at that age that people constantly talk about. Rocky would be another one. Like you can watch rocky one right now. And if you don't know, the story of Rocky, it hits, it hits so perfectly. And I mean, as another person, we talked about Cameron earlier, Stallone, such an underrated writer. I mean, he created Rocky, Rambo, and so many other that he writes almost anything he does, I mean, but Rocky's you know, Jesus Christ, it's Rocky.
Will Hicks 1:08:21 Yeah, no, I mean, in many, many films later, and when you look at it, it's it's all character. It's you feel for this guy who's just kind of down on his luck. And, you know, it's not the underdog story. Sure, that's a component that feeds into it. But it's just another character who's aspiring for something and just things aren't working out. The Universal is that
Alex Ferrari 1:08:45 and they get a shot, and then gets a shot that nobody in the world would ever get. You get a shot at the idol, and you're a bum. It's, it's like, it's like a filmmaker going, Steven Spielberg just called you up, and you're gonna direct the $200 million movie. Yeah. But I've never been on set. Like, you know, and then that was called Project Greenlight, but not quite, but you know what I mean? But that's the equivalent of, Oh, my God, and he gets the shot. And he initially refuses it, as he should, because he's not insanely
Will Hicks 1:09:19 bright. And it's like, it wouldn't be very good. I mean, he just, you know, and he has to be persuaded if there's a reluctant hero and our you know, refusal of the call, mythologically speaking. But, but within the context of film, it totally makes sense that we understand why he would refuse, you know, because he doesn't see himself as being much of anything. But then he goes for it, which, you know, kind of becomes the, the message of the film,
Alex Ferrari 1:09:45 right, and then, and he needs Mickey, to convince him to do it. The guy who saw the potential in him, but he never saw it in himself. He needed that that mentor figure it all goes back to Joseph Campbell. That mentary figure that brings him That out of him. And in an even in his own mind, he has to tell himself the story and like, I'm not going to beat the champion of the world, I'm not going to win this fight. My goal is to stand on my feet and go the distance. That is the only goal I have in this entire endeavor. I just want to stand instead of distance with the champ. That's all I want to do when I stand there want to prove that to myself, I know I'm not good enough to beat this guy, because he's the world champion. And even that one little story arc, because they originally had them winning, they shot both endings. They shot both endings, the shot that he won, but they felt that the more powerful one is like he didn't win, of course, setting up sequels upon sequels upon sequels.
Will Hicks 1:10:44 But also, he did. And you're exactly right in the scene prior, he was there talking with Adrian, and he's like, you know, nobody's ever got to distance with Crete. You know, he's kind of doing his thing. And he's setting up, here's my victory condition. And then we see we see how it plays out. But yeah, it would have been, it would have been hammy and especially at that era. So we're talking 1976. So, you know, we're still coming out of kind of American new wave. And most of those films ended with downer notes. And boy, that would have been, I think, a big pill for the audience to swallow then, which is to have emerged triumphant, because like, come on, dude. It undermines Apollo's character. Because Apollo is the master of disaster, The Count of Monte Cristo. Suck it, you know? Yeah. And even, you know, pardon me for kind of rambling, but even thinking of the character names when you look at them, you have a rock going against Apollo, a god.
Alex Ferrari 1:11:42 Really? No, you you right? never even thought of that. But you're absolutely right. He's Apollo, the God and he's a rock. Yeah, hard, who's gonna win this? But rocks are good, lasting. And taking
Will Hicks 1:11:57 and taking, taking punishment? Yeah. And of course, you know, I mean, he's more along the lines, Rocky Marciano from a historical perspective, but just the, you look at those small, small details in there, and they just work so well for the story. They're just kind of one of the things where it all comes together. But know that the right ending for that movie is to not have him win, and have him win and self respect.
Alex Ferrari 1:12:19 And the funny thing is, is because I know still on wrote up until I think the fourth one, I'm not sure if he wrote the fifth one or not, but he might have put up into the fourth one. On its arc of if you look at the first four, Rocky's the setup and reveal the setup and pay off set up and pay off. You've built up this relationship with Apollo, where now Mr. T is the bad guy. And Apollo needs to help him. And that builds up that relationship to the point where rocky for you everyone goes, I still remember everyone, like they kill the power. They kill the Pope. And they'll just I remember that. So like, I'm like, you're like, why did how did What's going on? Then everyone rushed out to see the evil Russian guy. You know. I was breaking it off longer in arguably one of the best performances of his life. He has like six lines. And he, it's so amazing. But yeah, it was it was it was perfection. Even on that level, Stallone understood the audience and what he had built with those characters, and was able to just play with the expectations again, because if you would have told me after watching rocky one, I'm like, oh, in two movies from now, Apollo is going to become his best friend, and help him defeat a new villain. Oh, and by the way, that he's gonna have to pay revenge because some other guys gonna be like, you would have said, No, that's impossible. So you're playing with those expectations, again, over the course of multiple movies, which we've all hoped to have, at one point or another, we have the ability and the privilege to be able to tell a story over so many movies.
Will Hicks 1:13:53 Oh, absolutely. And then it ties in really to the idea of Apollo not being a villain. He's an antagonist. Apollo was the hero of Apollo story. Always. Yeah, and that's, you know, that ties into really good villains, or antagonists I should say. And so then it's like, oh, what a great What a wonderful way of kind of reconciling cuz I always liked Apollo. It was cool. to have him now helping or working with a hero. Oh, that's such is beautiful. What a nice compromise. Because No, he's not evil at all. He was trying to, you know, he sort of took the fight lightly as he should have. And despite hubris, which the ancient Greeks would have busted his chops for. And, you know, Rocky, you know, emerges trumpet eventually. But he was never a villain. He was an antagonist and kind of delves into a little bit of difference between the two and still in, Savile knew that he was able to provide that character with, you know, a tragic arc, but certainly an arc nonetheless.
Alex Ferrari 1:14:58 And that's the thing, even in rock You want Apollo? He was never bad guy. He never did anything bad. If anything, he was giving him opportunities. Yes, for selfish reasons because he wanted to get his image to be better. That was the reason why he you know, chose this ridiculous idea of bringing a nobody in to fight the champion you imagine like in the days of Tyson when he was at his power, like he just bring some bum off the street, who maybe had three or four fights or whatever, it gets destroyed. Yeah, but but the brilliance of it that he was not a villain. And I think that actually leads into yet another conversation, which is the part of a villain. And I think that bad villains and bad antagonists don't have good. They generally don't have a good story that they're telling themselves. So the idea of the twisting the mustache at the trail at the train station, while the woman is tied up in the heroes coming to save that story at the time was very like, Oh my god, but now you look at him like why is he tired? Or what? what's what's the purpose? Why? Why are you doing? You're just being bad for bad? That's boring. That for bad is absolutely boring. But someone like Thanos who, you know, they built Thanos up over the course of 10 years. Oh, yeah. Did you dripping him down like little little, little easter eggs throughout all those movies that knows as as a villain, because he is a bad guy. But his story that he tells himself he's trying to do good. He's like, Look, the world the universe is overpopulated. I think the solution for that it's just this kill half everybody off. You know, it's just very pragmatic, very pragmatic way of going about things. Is it wrong? Yes. But in his stories, like this is the only way I see I'm trying to do a greater good in a very bad way. And most villains throughout history, you start looking at, you know, power hungry dictators and things like that. And even throughout cinema history, the best villains always have just misguided visions of something good trying to solve a problem, but just misguided in solving that problem. Magneto in the x men, you know, he's just like, you know, there is no working with these people. We are the superior race. And we are now going to, to take over the world as mutants, you know, but then Professor X is his other side's like, No, we could work with them, we can help them we can. So it's like that, that whole thing. But he's an interesting villain, as opposed to just a villain like I just, if he would have said, I don't like anybody else, I think we're just gonna kill people. It's boring. It's boring. There has to be a better story.
Will Hicks 1:17:44 Yeah, and, and when we think about that, so we look at, like the protagonists and antagonists, we're looking at two sides of the theme. And when you have the villain, who's on the other side, saying just being evil, for the sake of evil, you kind of think, then it's like, there's no other side of the theme being presented. It's interesting, one sided, and that becomes propaganda. And we sense it, and we're like, okay, it's just, all right. And so it starts to lose those layers. And then that ties back in a little bit to with the idea that the shadow archetype, you know, when we talk, talk about hero's journey and such of the shadow represents a fallen hero, someone who was trying to be good, and when we look at their characteristics, you'll see Oh, there, they have a lot of wonderful traits. And then there's this one component typically it's it's related to selfishness. In other words, they're in it for themselves rather than for benefiting others. And that's that that dividing line. Example I like to use is Hannibal Lecter of all people. Who's a shadow archetype. When you when you look at the character really deeply, who turned
Alex Ferrari 1:18:53 who, and who turned into an antihero,
Will Hicks 1:18:57 yeah. Relationships cool, too. But it makes sense because it draws on their their fallen heroes, they're heroes who started out on the path of good or on the path to help others and realized, wait a second, I've got all these powers. nobody's doing stuff for me. And they decided to go into it for themselves. But if we look at Hannibal Lecter, as a character, and rattle off a list of traits, like Oh, he's intelligent, that's admirable.
Alex Ferrari 1:19:25 He's a
Will Hicks 1:19:27 good artist, if you recall, you know, the drawings. He he drew all those from memory, Dr. Electric, you know, that kind of? He's a fine, you know, I guess, could run like a recipe channel. That'd be kind of cool. But he's polite. He's exceedingly polite. Well, man, like well mannered, like, Yeah, he doesn't like the fact that to get multiple meanings. And in the next cell, you know, it was rude to Clarice so he had him swallow his own tongue. If we rattled this list of traits, it's like holy smokes, that guy sounds great. And then you like And oh yeah, maybe have eats people. It's one thing he said thing
Alex Ferrari 1:20:06 that one thing he eats people. And that's the brilliance of that character and of that story, it's that you love what you love Hannibal, you know you how you absolutely are, you are in love with a cannibal. A vicious killing, handled the cannibal. And, and that's the brilliance of that when you can love a villain that much. So much so that the villain then eventually turns into a hero. In other movies, in other movies, and even arguably in science of the land. It's it's, he's the one that helps catch the ultimate bad villain of Buffalo Bill, who has no redeeming value whatsoever. Not like he he's a sick, just sick person who has obvious issues. Obviously, she has to say the least, just a few. But there's no redeeming. There's nothing redeeming about him. He, I mean, nothing. I think the only redeeming thing about Buffalo Bill is his puppy. He doesn't hurt the animal he does. And that's like, his only weakness is like, you know, that was the thing that finally you know, one of the things that was the puppy, that's the only thing I can remember of that character that's even remotely redeeming that he likes animals, like you're reaching, reaching out that one.
Will Hicks 1:21:22 Yeah, it's a bit of a straight up. Dude. Okay. And that's exactly right. And so there's a difference between our you know, Shadow archetype and an antagonist. And so it's that notion of that fallen hero who kind of gave into themselves. And I don't know where we started, or how we got started on this topic, villains,
Alex Ferrari 1:21:46 villains and villains. And so
Will Hicks 1:21:49 it says villains who do have, like, okay, I can see your motivations. I get it. And once again, that ties us into how we relate to the film. We get it, we understand where they're coming from. And it's an intriguing question, what would you do if you were put in those those shoes? And the filmmakers pop? That is a question. And now we may say, No, I would never kill off half the population. No, that's just wrong. But I can certainly see where Thanos is coming from. So Chris character identification with the villain. Once you do that, well, you got a good playground to play in it much more complex character than just, you know, hanging out on the train tracks.
Alex Ferrari 1:22:24 I mean, so asking the question, if you had the power of the Infinity Gauntlet, instead of killing off half a million or half a half the population of the universe, why not double the universe? And have more places? Why not have more places for more resources, double all the resources, triple all the resources, make the resources infinite? With the Infinity Gauntlet? Infinity Gauntlet, do you see Thanos? You're wrong, sir. But, but that's but that's perspective. It's all about perspective on what he felt that was that was the way of going about it, but his and also, he had so much pain, because of that specific problem, where they killed off his family and all this kind of stuff. when he was younger, that that's why that pain caused him to go back towards the, I'll just create more resources to I'm gonna have to kill half in his misguided way to do it.
Will Hicks 1:23:23 Exactly. And notice what that does for us as an audience is that that clues us in as to who he is as a person. Oddly enough, it reveals his character and and isolates it down. There's something we talk about, like isolating the variable. It's a math term. But it's the idea that that personality trait, whatever it is, that drives that character, and I talk a lot about character design and design freak when it comes to storytelling. But what it does is it isolates it down to Yeah, you could have chosen that, but you didn't. And that tells us something about who he is. And also clues us into that aspect of pain, which can be relatable as well. And so really smart films will do that. where it'll, it'll say, Yeah, you've got this choice and you chose this. Why? You know, and it kind of questions implicit, and then we watch the film to find out.
Alex Ferrari 1:24:15 Yeah, so, you know, obviously one of the greatest villains of all time, Darth Vader, you know, at the core of Darth Vader, he's not a bad guy. He's angry. He he feels loss, but there's a humanity inside that villain. At the beginning, we don't see that we just see the bad guy. But during the course of even the the original trilogy, you see him arc to the point where he then becomes the Savior. He becomes the Redeemer he becomes redeemed at the end of Return of the Jedi. But that villain, you know, and then once you go back into the prequels, you kind of see where all that pain came from, and the loss and everything like that, that turned him into what he intended. But at the end of the day, though, he's still he's still he was still a good guy inside.
Will Hicks 1:25:10 Oh, yeah. I mean, when you think about him, he's another he's similar to Hannibal Lecter in that regard, is always positive traits. He's strong, he's intelligent, he wants to bring order to the galaxy, okay, galaxy is a messy place, he's going to tidy it up. He wants to reconnect with his kid. Think about it. Luke never sent him a Father's Day card. And he wants to connect with them. Okay, that's nice, too. And oh, yeah, by the way, I want to rule the galaxy as father and son, okay. And you're willing to chop people and do a lot of chaos in order to achieve all these things. And so there's that, once again, loaded up with all these positive attributes. And there's that that trait that gets it What's wrong with that character, their character flaw? In some ways? You touched on something that's kind of cool. We can look at the idea between our protagonist and antagonist as one who arcs versus one who doesn't, and ask yourself this, check out check out movies. Typically, the villain does not arc they don't change, they don't learn the lesson of the movie. Right? Hero does and succeeds, right? The villain does not and is destroyed. And for movies, you mentioned seven earlier, Brad Pitt. You know, what's it about? Brad Pitt? doesn't learn the lesson of the film, and gets destroyed by it. Right, a spoiler again. But, but that's the idea at the core of the story. And at the core of what films tend to do. The successful ones in my mind, is when a character learns that and is willing to grow and change as a result of, you know, what the film is presenting them with? They tend to emerge triumphant when they're not, they tend to be destroyed.
Alex Ferrari 1:26:51 Yeah, that's a really great point of view. Because I mean, Brad Pitt obviously never learned the lesson. And the only person, even even even Morgan Freeman, he doesn't learn a lesson. He knew the lesson the entire time. And he was trying to teach it but yet he was like, Oh, my God, I've I failed, the whole movie ends on a downer. I mean, the whole movie is a downer. There's no question about it. Even john doe's character, he knew what was going on. And john doe, throughout the entire movie doesn't change does he doesn't want to change. Right? He's, he's a villain, and no one really knows why john doe does what john doe does, there was no, there is no motivation. He is a pure villain. From the beginning to end, and it he does have a slight a slight twisting of the mustache. But he does a slight a slight bit of twisting of the mustache because he doesn't have and I'm not going back into the movie I'm like, but for him, it's a game. And that and that's what moves and motivates him is like, oh, there's a new poem on the table on the on the chessboard, and that's, that's Somerset and Somerset. I'm Brad Pitt's character. And I'm gonna play with him. Now, that happens midway through the movie, you know, Midway, like, oh, okay, now the game has changed. And again, once that middle midpoint is a point of no return, it doesn't. That you can't go back now. Oh, no, no, john doe knows who you are. You're screwed. You can't go back. It's such a great,
Will Hicks 1:28:24 yeah. And oh, yeah. And it's the right thing for the film. But kind of going back to that midpoint, that's something you know, we talked about it from a structural perspective, you know, I refer to it as the apex or the big twist, where the film will flip on its head, just to kind of refresh this the narrative halfway through, because you know, movie can be long. And if you're hitting the same beats over and over again, it can feel really redundant and slow. And so watch, watch that 60 minute marker, watch that Apex beat that middle point of the film, and you'll see where they'll twist it just to you know, kind of revive the second act and add additional complications that'll lead into the third. Yeah, so yeah, no moment.
Alex Ferrari 1:29:06 It No it isn't. You start analyzing all the movies that are haven't had any success in the world. In the cinema history, they all have that midpoint. There is a point where the character can't go back to the ordinary world if we're using Joseph Campbell's, or terms. There is that point where you're like, Okay, I've now crossed the threshold. I can't go back even if I wanted to, I can't go back. So that that perfect example and seven. Once john knows who Brad Pitt's character is, there's no going back now whether he wants to or not, it's over. Now. It's gonna go it's gonna go down this road. And and that you need that as a story in the story. You do need that point where at any moment, that first half the character glucose, you know what, because before before he meets john doe, john doe sees who he is. He says, You know what, I'm just going to drop out of this case, it's just too hard I don't want to deal with this anymore. He could leave, arguably, for once john doe knows it's over, you can't go back. It's now out of your control in it. And what's the midpoint in Star Wars? I am trying to figure it out, let it off the top of my head, I can't remember. But there's a midpoint where Luke, I think it's been Luke goes off with with lb one. I think that's the point where like, you know, when that when that when the farm burns, like he can't go back home, there's the whole bird. So that's the point where like, well, guess I gotta go down this way.
Will Hicks 1:30:30 Yep, I only have one path left. And I have to pursue it and have to follow it. And yeah, it's one of the things that you know, when you think about different structures and different ways to approach your story, and storytelling as a whole. And I'm a fan of what I call a structural overlay, which are two structures laid on on on top of each other. And one is that Hero's Journey structure that we've been discussing. And another is what I call a turn structure, which is more of a character based structure. And it's the idea that through the pursuit of the plot of solving the plot, we reveal who this character is, what their flaw is what they have to deal with internally. That's that internal storyline. And if we really want to look at story in a very broad sense, or cinematic narrative, in a broad sense, I would maintain it's the external force of plot against the internal force of character. And these two things colliding. And it, that midpoint is where that that internal storyline starts to come up to the surface where we can see it and get at it, we may have caught it, we've hinted at it prior to, but now it's like, oh, in order to solve the plot of the film, whatever it may be, I'm going to have to change this aspect of my character. And there's the characters arc is what is presented there. So it really is two structures kind of laid on top of each other. And one is what I would maintain. Even things like save the cat, if you were to look at that, that approach in that storytelling model. It's kind of taking those two structural paradigms and spelling out what happens at the at those junctures there. But it really is those two things, that's a source material for all of it's kind of cool. But those two, those two structures that I just discussed, overlaid on top of each other one is telling you the plot storyline, and one is telling you the character journey inside.
Alex Ferrari 1:32:25 Very, very cool. Um, you know, we've been going on and on, this has been a fantastic conversation, and we can continue to talk about stuff forever. I have a feeling. But I also wanted to bring attention to your book, The screenwriters workout. Now, when I first saw the title for this, I was like, This is interesting. And and then when I started digging into a little bit of like, Oh, no, like he's talking about reps. He's talking about sets. Like this is like for a writer. So can you talk a little bit about the screenwriters works workout?
Will Hicks 1:32:55 Oh, sure. So that was that was the thought process. You know, it's thinking about magic mentioning earlier that Oh, yeah, I tried just about everything else I could other than film. And so I was a science major exercise physiology.
Alex Ferrari 1:33:10 Make sense?
Will Hicks 1:33:12 Okay, so it's like, yeah, there's the connection. But when you think about any sort of performance, sport, if you will, or even a performance art, you know, you go to the gym and you strengthen certain muscles, a strengthen certain aspects, so that you can use those in the pursuit. So as a football player, I need to, you know, be able to be very strong, so I can push the line of scrimmage and tackle someone or run through a tackle or something like that. And for me, I was like, why screenwriters can do the same thing? It's not that no, obviously we get we get better by reading screenplays, writing screenplays, and doing all those things. But we can also strengthen the skill sets that we go to gym and hit the equipment. And so what I tried to do is create a gym for screenwriters, where you can go there and strengthen certain aspects of your craft to improve your storytelling essentially. And so that was kind of the core approach to it. And then what I realized is, as I was going through the book is crap, I gotta do all I have to teach all this stuff, in order for the later lessons to make sense. So the first part, you know, has quite a bit of theory that's going behind it, so that you can get to some of the activities and exercises later on. That should strengthen your storytelling craft. A lot of these were honed in my classes. And so what I would do is try different exercises on my students that that as an evil scientist or anything, but like, hey, try this and see if it helps. And so I was able to kind of glean which ones seem to improve their storytelling to a high degree. And so then I tried to incorporate those into the book as well. And so it's kind of a combination of those two, two things. Some exercises are really, you know, kind of, you know, if you were a soup, what would you be like, what does this have to do with screenwriting? But what I'm trying to do is strength is stretch your mind in terms of understanding the metaphoric connections. In between the actions that characters take, versus the things we can see on the screen, you know, if they're eating a bola terrible example, eating a bowl of alphabet soup, I mean, everything on that screen has meaning to us. So we're trying to look for meaning in those in those elements. And so I tried to put together a book that would explore and strengthen those skills, in addition to your storytelling chops as a whole. Looking at it from a structural perspective, from a character design perspective, like I said, I'm big into design, I think most of the issues that we find in a screenplay are based on a faulty design right from the get go. And to not be overly eloquent about it, it's kind of like what I would call a chocolate covered turd. You know, it looks great. It's got you know, raspberry sprinkles on it, and it's all singles awesome. And then you take a bite and it's like, I got a mouthful of crap. And it's no fault of the writer per se. It's just the design the story wasn't designed from the get go to really work together and fit together, the elements don't quite go together right? And so no amount of artistry, no amount of of craft can can resurrect it. It's just doomed right from the get go. And so there are elements, you know, talking about that in the book as well. Just trying to really get it story design, in designing your story right from the get go and then providing you know, a lot of the other soft skills that go into screenwriting.
Alex Ferrari 1:36:28 Now I'm going to ask you a few questions asked all my guests. What are three screenplays that every screenwriter should read?
Will Hicks 1:36:35 Me and your other guests gave us a really good ones. Let's see. I'll try to pick some that perhaps might not be quite so obvious. The Devil Wears Prada.
Alex Ferrari 1:36:49 Crispy quit. Yeah, it is. script. So yeah, that'll that'll be one. My best friend's wedding. Another great script.
Will Hicks 1:37:02 I'll pick that one. In particular, that one for how the screenwriter named Ron bass. How he puts his acting description just kind of really cool. And then Okay, lethal weapon.
Alex Ferrari 1:37:17 Oh, well Shane Black Of course. He's just I mean just just for just for the descriptions alone It's the scripts are amazing.
Will Hicks 1:37:26 Yeah, and if you and if you want to stay in Shane Black world, I might suggest last boy scout the original set up that one via
Alex Ferrari 1:37:32 the original one. He was a surfer and not daymond Wayne's
Will Hicks 1:37:37 Oh, no. The the the script itself I think if you read the actual description in there it's it's it's a further distillation of lethal weapon. And and I pick those for different reasons. But most of them have to do with words on the page. Yep. And just how you how you create a movie on the page because it's not the easiest task to do.
Alex Ferrari 1:37:58 And if you What advice would you give a screenwriter trying to break into the business today? Know your craft ultimately, it's all gonna boil down to that you know, right good or, but oh my god, that's a T shirt. That's a T shirt. Right good or?
Will Hicks 1:38:16 Yeah, most most of my lessons are like bumper stickers or like come on. Are means no No, no seriously it's know your craft hone your craft when you think you know it. You don't keep working at it. It's it takes so long to master the skill sets. It really does. And I think film school it's really cool. It serves a purpose of getting you further along that journey than perhaps you would do on your on your own. But it really is boiling down to a good story well told vibrant characters they will they will find out they will find out so find a home let it second guess the marketplace cuz you're gonna be behind
Alex Ferrari 1:38:54 every time every time. Yeah. What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life? I don't know. I'm still learning. No. structure is not formula. Yeah, exactly.
Will Hicks 1:39:12 There was you know, young younger me if I look back, it's like to Yeah, okay. You're trying to be this artistic Putz? Like, no, I'm a bus wreck. No, nobody's above the craft. Nobody. As soon as a filmmaker thinks they're above the craft. They just ended their career. Yeah, happen. Hitchcock. Sorry. But happens to a lot of filmmakers. But no one is above the craft. It is. It's, I think a beauty once you see it. But that would be the one lesson. It's just like, yeah, it's not just because it's a structural paradigm. It's not a formula. There's reason for structure. And it's kind of cool that way. And once you understand the reasons I'm kind of a why guy. It's like, Well, you know, versus we need conflict and film. You know, and I'm like Terminator. You know why? You just do why, you know, I keep asking In the same thing, it's like, oh, here's why. And you start to understand their reasons why certain things happen in movies. And it's, you know, you can try to reinvent the wheel, and it's totally cool. I can appreciate the impulse. But ultimately that wheels got to roll. If you reinvent the wheel and it doesn't roll, it's not a wheel. And and so, you know, sometimes in our in our well intention of, hey, I want to do things different in original and certainly that would that would describe, you know, how I wanted to approach the page. It's understanding, there are certain reasons why certain things happen in a film. And it's now you provide your originality to that provide the originality to the content on the certainly the form. And it's a long answer. Fair enough. But yeah, hopefully you can glean something out of it.
Alex Ferrari 1:40:50 And three of your favorite films of all time.
Will Hicks 1:40:54 Oh, I think we already discussed them. Star Wars. You got that one. That one? I'll just have to list. It's funny before the class I hadn't watched it in years. It was kind of back to what you were talking about. So Star Wars. Life is beautiful.
Alex Ferrari 1:41:12 Yeah, it's beautiful. I like the fact that it holds emotion. And then seven summer another and you can't go wrong with any of those at all. Well, man, thank you so much for taking all the time out. I know you have your busy schedule. You were in between classes right now. So I do appreciate you taking the time. It has been an absolutely enjoyable conversation about the craft and and hope we could do it again sometime. But thank you so much for dropping these knowledge bombs on our tribe today. So I appreciate it, my friend.
Will Hicks 1:41:47 Well, thank you and do it again.
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Our guest today is the well-regarded screenwriting lecturer, story consultant, and eminent author, Robert McKee. Reputable for his globally-renowned ‘Story Seminars’ that cover the principles and styles of storytelling. I read his book years ago and refer to it often. I discovered McKee after watching the brilliant film Adaptation by the remarkable Charlie Kaufman. Kaufman literally wrote him into the script as a character. McKee’s character was portrayed by the Emmy Award-winning actor Brian Cox.
If you haven’t heard of Robert McKee then you’re in for treat. Robert McKee is what is considered a “guru of gurus” in the screenwriting and storytelling world.
He has lectured on storytelling for three decades, and his book Story: Substance, Structure, Style and the Principles of Screenwriting(FREE AUDIO BOOK VERSIONS HERE)is a “screenwriters’ bible“. It’s also become the bible for TV writers, and entertainment executives, and their assistants.
McKee’s former students include 67 Academy Award winners, 200+ Emmy Award winners, 100+ Writers Guild of America Award winners, and 52 Directors Guild of America Award winners.
Some of his “Story Seminar” alumnae including Oscar® Winners Peter Jackson, Julia Roberts, John Cleese, Geoffrey Rush, Paul Haggis, Akiva Goldsman, William Goldman, and Jane Capon, among many others.
McKee’s work has shaped the way Hollywood movies have been written for years. Particularly, Story: Substance, Structure, Style and the Principles of Screenwriting, written in 1997. A very resourceful guide for screenwriters. In Story, he expands on the concepts he teaches in his $450 seminars (considered a must by industry insiders), providing readers with the most comprehensive, integrated explanation of the craft of writing for the screen. More than 100 big-name screenwriters have benefitted from his seminars at one point or another.
Nicolas Cage is Charlie Kaufman, a confused L.A. screenwriter overwhelmed by feelings of inadequacy, sexual frustration, self-loathing, and by the screenwriting ambitions of his freeloading twin brother Donald (Nicolas Cage). While struggling to adapt “The Orchid Thief,” by Susan Orlean (Meryl Streep), Kaufman’s life spins from pathetic to bizarre. The lives of Kaufman, Orlean’s book, become strangely intertwined as each one’s search for passion collides with the others’.
My interview covered discussion on McKee’s latest book which is linked below, Character: The Art of Role and Cast Design for Page, Stage, and Screen. And a combination of his other books Dialogue: the Art of Verbal Action for Stage, Page,and Screen, and Storynomics: Story-Driven Marketing in the Post-Advertising World, which are both linked in the show notes.
Also join Robert McKee’s Legendary STORY Seminar LIVE in Los Angeles, New York & London
In an intense 3 days, Robert McKee teaches the substance, structure, style and principles of Story. Learn how to apply classical story design – the kind that has resulted in masterpieces of all kinds – to your own cinematic, theatrical or literary premise.
Alex Ferrari 0:04 I'd like to welcome to the show, Robert McKee. How are you doing, Robert?
Robert McKee 0:08 Very well, very well. Thank you.
Alex Ferrari 0:10 Thank you so much for coming on the show. I am have been a fan of your work for quite some time. I've read your first two books, and I'm looking forward to reading your new one, which we'll talk about later character. But I was first introduced to your work in the film adaptation like so many. So many screenwriters and filmmakers were how, by the way, how, how was that whole process? I mean, it was a very odd request, I'm sure that you got when you got that call?
Robert McKee 0:40 Well, it certainly was, my phone rang one day and producer named Ed Saxon calling from New York and, and he said I am mightily embarrassed. This is a phone call I've dreaded. We've got this crazy screenwriter Charlie Kaufman and, and he has made you a character in his screenplay, and he has freely cribbed from your book and from your lectures, and he has no permission to do either. And, but we don't know what to do. So I said, well, send me a script, you know, I'll you know, see what's going on. So they sent me a script, and I read it. And I saw immediately that he really needed my character as a central to the film, because he wants me to, he wanted my character to represent the the imperatives of Hollywood. And that you have to do certain things certain ways, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, which is on one level nonsense. Such rules, they their principles, and there's genre convention, but anyway, but so I was a typical kind of need to slander Hollywood in favor of the artist. And, and they wanted me to do the slandering. So, but I realized that without my character there to provide some source of conflict. The story didn't work at all. So I said, and so I tell you what, I made two phone calls. I called William Goldman. And I said, Good, he was, you know, a student of mine. And I said, Bill, they there's a film and they want to use me as a character in it. What do you think? And he said, Don't do it. Don't do it. He said, it's Hollywood. And he said, they're out to get you don't do it. I said, Yeah, but I'm okay. But suppose I had casting rights. And he says, Okay, okay, who do you want? I said, Well, let's say Gene Hackman, is it? Okay. Okay. It'll be Gene Hackman, with a big pink bow around his neck. If they want to get you, Bob, they're gonna get you don't do it. So then I called my son. And I said, Paul, you know, and he said, do it. I said, Why isn't because Dad, it's a Hollywood film, you're gonna be a character in the Hollywood film. And he said, it'll be great. Do it. So I talked to Ed Sachs, and I said, Kenny, three things. One, I need a redeeming scene. I said, you know, you want to slander me fine. But then you can't leave it at that. You got he got to give me a redeeming scene. Right? To I have to have the controller the casting, I won't tell you exactly who to cast. But you got to give me a list because I ended need to know their philosophy. I mean, for all I knew this was the Danny DeVito Dan Ackroyd School of casting,
Alex Ferrari 4:28 you know, fair enough.
Robert McKee 4:31 I said, and very importantly, the third act sucks. And I cannot be a character in a bad movie. So we need meetings, they're going to have to be willing to rewrite. And, and those are my three conditions. And, and they agreed to them. And, and so they sent me a casting they gave me my redeeming scene and then they they they sent a list. Have the 10 best middle aged British actors alive? You know, everybody from Christopher Plummer to Alan Bates and I, and and I looked at the list. And I said, I want Brian Cox. And they said, Who's Brian Cox? And I said, He's the best British actor you don't know. Because Brian had been a student of mine up in Glasgow, and I'd seen him on stage in the West End of London and, and what I didn't want, see all those actors. They're all wonderful. But there's always actors have this Love me Love me thing, no matter what they want to be loved. And there's always this subtext like my heart's in the right place. And I really, you know, and I don't want to be loved. I really don't want to be respected, I want to be understood. And I want to inspire people and educate, but I do not want a bunch of people following me around like a guru. Right, loving me, right? And I knew that Brian would not do that. And, and then we had meetings and about the Act Three, and eventually got to a never got to a perfect accuracy. But it got to a point where I could sign off on so and it was, so they took my son to a screening at so at Sony and I said, you know, we think ball, and he said, Dad, he said, Brian Cox nailed you. Which I thought was great. So you know, and it was, it was, but that's not the, you know, I was I put myself in a funny date. So it's not just, but yeah, it was, um, it was a difficult choice. But I think William Goldman was wrong, that, you know, there was a way to you have your cake and eat it too. And I think an adaptation is loved. Oh, and millions and millions of people. So, so it certainly didn't hurt my brand.
Alex Ferrari 7:20 It didn't hurt your brand or business, I'd imagine. It's the term irony comes to play where you would be working with Charlie Kaufman, on a script, where your character is the establishment that he's trying to get away from and to give art but yet you are working with him to put the script together and finish the third act, which is amazing. Charlie,
Robert McKee 7:42 Charlie's one of those guys. He's got, you know, a great talent. But he's a bit delusional. What he wants to achieve is the commercial art movie. He wants it both ways. He wants to be known for making art movies, but they have to make money too. And a lot of it because he knows that, you know, his career. If he loses money, it's over. And so and, and so he wants to he wants to create the commercial art movie and a salsa dance understood, you know, things, the notion of the commercial art movie, you know, the, the, the English Patient and films like that. And I you know, in the meetings with a spike and and, and, Charlie, I, you know, I pointed out to Charlie, so you can't have it both ways. It's a you, you know, you if it's a true art movies have a very limited audience period. And art filmmakers understand this. And they budget accordingly. You want 30 million
Alex Ferrari 8:59 for an art film?
Robert McKee 9:03 Was 5 million we could, but Okay, so anyway, but it was. Yeah, the irony of it is wonderful.
Alex Ferrari 9:10 So, so you've worked with so many screenwriters and filmmakers over the course of your career, what is the biggest mistakes you see screenwriters, new screenwriters to the craft make?
Robert McKee 9:24 Well, it's not mistake so much. Yeah, I guess it is a mistake. But, uh, there's two problems. One is cliches. And they think that it that they want to be, you know, like an artist, they want to be original, but at the same time, they want. They want to be sure that it works. And so they recycle the things that everybody's always done. And they've tried to recycle them with it. difference and which is absolutely necessary, I mean, that's I get it, you're not going to reinvent the wheel, you have to just spin it yet another way. And, but then they get very easy once they sell their soul. It's hard to get it back. And, you know, you can pour on your soul for a while, but you've got to get the cash to get back. And, and so that's the war on cliches is not some, you know, it's not a fault, it's just a problem everybody faces. And, but there's a greater problem. And it's the willingness to lie. In an effort to tell their story to get it out, somehow they get it together. And they will write characters and scenes, and whatever that that lack credibility that they know perfectly well, in their heart of hearts is pure corn of some kind. And it's a it's, they're bending the truth. It's not it's, there's something false to some. And, and, and to, to, to get to something that is really profoundly honest. And it doesn't matter what the genre is, from action, to comedy. to, to a you know, as an education plan, something very interior doesn't matter what the genre is, there's truth, and then there's lie. And somehow they think that because it's fiction, that gives them a license to lie. But but they don't have that license, they have a an obligation to express the truth of what it is to be a human being and in whatever genre, they're they're writing, they have a, they have a an obligation, if they're writing comedy, to really stick a knife in some sacred cow and expose the bullshit of society. I mean, they, you know, it's not enough to be amusing. comedy is a is an angry art, that savages, all those things that, that that that are false in life, and starting with politics. Right. And, and so there's they, there's a willingness to, to fit and lie and in order to please that, okay, let me take a step back. I bulldozing cliches and truthfulness are all the byproduct of the young writer, especially the young writers desire to please they want to be loved, they want people to love what they do they want to please people. And so they write what they think, is pleasing for people, whether it's all the cards in fast and furious. Right, or the sentimentality or whatever they want to please people and and which is fine, but you can't please everybody and so you're going to write for a certain mind a certain audience a certain mentality and an educational level and taste and whatnot in a certain group of people that you know, are out there, they're like you pay and and you can't please everybody. And and so, a film like for example, Nomad land is certainly not trying to please there's an audience for it, that will get it and enjoy it and and recognize this as a deep truth about our society and about human nature.
But it's, it's not going to have a mass audience. And because it will turn off more people than it will turn out. And, but it's, it's a excellent film is an honest film. So that's the I think it's fishing around here. Because when you open the door and say, you know whether
Alex Ferrari 14:53 you're wrong, there's 1000s of things
Robert McKee 14:57 to bring up, but if I can do it down, it's that it's that the willingness to please results in recycling cliches, and basically not telling the the, the, the dark truth of things. And so you have to be it's tough, you have to be disciplined not to copy other people's success, but to, to write what you honestly believe to be the
errors in the central new genre.
And, and be rigorous about that.
Alex Ferrari 15:36 Now, one of the the hallmarks of a good story is conflict. How do you create conflict in a story?
Robert McKee 15:46 Well, depends on where you start. If you start with a choice of genre, let's say you're going to write a thriller. Right? You know, the source of conflict immediately by that choice. I need some kind of psychopathic villain. Right? I need Russell Crowe, in unhinged. Why? And so that's done for you. So that the genre sort of automatically tells you, right, on the other hand, if you're telling a family story, and that will be called domestic. Until the characters are a family and it's a family with problems, wow. The conflict could come from any direction. Who's with? Is it the mother? Is it the father? Is that rebellious children? Is it Whose is it? Some some, you know, older grandfather grandmother figure that's pulling people strings, and you know, whatever, given a family what's wrong with this family? And so you have to figure out what is it and is it social, or psychological? Is it instinctive is a deliberate you have to think your way through all that. And so you, you you start with a family and you create a little you know, a cast? And then and then you ask the question or what's wrong with this family. And a million different things can be wrong in human nature inside of a family. And that requires knowledge, you have to understand people, you have to understand that you know, the mother, daughter, mother, son, Father, daughter, Father, Son relationships, and, and you need to dig into your own experience. And ask yourself, you know, what was wrong in my family? What What do I believe, to be the truth about families? And, and, and that the genre doesn't give you that answer. And so, you have the answer will come from your depth of understanding of human nature, human relationships of a certain personal kind in this case. And, or if you're writing comedy, so as mentioned, the starting place of writing a comedy is to ask yourself what is pissing me off? What in this world is pissing me off? Is that relationships? Is it men women? Always it? Is that the is that the the the the social networks? Is it is it politics? Is it the military? Is it the church? Why what what is what what do I hate? What's pissing me off? Because the root of comedy is is anger. The comic mind is an angry idealist comic comics are idealists who want the world to be perfect or at least and when they look around the world they see where sorry, sick one place it is. And, and they realize that they're complicit, they're part of it too. And so what spacing me off then it points them in a direction to an institution or behavior in society. me like I think that great comedy series. Curb Your Enthusiasm. You know, and, and, and yes, you know, what is pissing me off and he will finds really egregious fault in, in, in people's lack of propriety. Or, or logic or clarity of thought, you know, why should there be a handicapped stall in toilets? Right that no one can use except the two times a year that a handicapped person comes into this particular toilet. Okay. Right. That is
Larry David, that is an egregious absurdity and it infuriates him. And so he goes into the handicap stall, and sure shit, this is the day
a guy in a wheelchair. So, um, so that, you know, that that's, those are the various things, you know, you, you look at yourself, as a writer, and you you have to understand your vision of life, you have to understand the genres. When you make a choice, there's certain conventions. And, and a, you can bend those conventions, what breaker if you want, but not without an awareness of what the audience expects. And so somehow, it'll between picking the setting and the cast, the genre, and then looking inside of yourself, like your comic wouldn't ask you what's pissing me off? You find your way. If I if you're in conflict, and the the most importantly, you know, it has it that you know that that conflict has to be something you deeply believe in. Now, or, or you will do what we were talking about earlier, you will fall prey to cliches because you'll you'll create false conflict, false antagonist empty, a cliched antagonisms. And like that. So it's a very important question. Now.
Alex Ferrari 22:28 So as far as one thing a lot of a lot of screenwriters try to get away from is structure, saying that structure and trying to fall into side of a structure is, it's like holding me back as an artist and I need to be free and I need to run free like a wild stallion, I personally find structure to be very freeing, because it gives me a place to go. How do you approach structure?
Robert McKee 22:55 Well, in this day, people have a course accused me of imposing structural rules in my teaching, and it's nonsense. When
I am opposed to structure, it's inhibiting my creativity do not know what the hell they're talking. They just don't they use the word structure. But they wouldn't understand or know story structure, if it fell from a height under their foot, okay, they just don't know what they're talking about. structure in every scene, ideally, is a turning point of some magnitude, the character's life, they go into a situation wanting something. And something in that moment, kind of prevents them from getting it. They struggle with that. And they either get what they want, or they don't get what they want. Or they get it at a price or they don't get it but learn something. Change takes place. And it's in a simple scene is minor. And then these changes per scene build sequences in which moderate deeper change wider change happens, these sequences build x in it. And then that climax is a major turning point that has greater depth or greater breadth or both have impact on a character's life. And so minor moderate major changes are building a story progressively to an absolute irreversible change at climax. Now, why would anyone object to what I just said? Why would anyone think that you can change Do concrete scenes in which nothing changes. And do that three scenes in a row and people will not be walking up. They come there, they come to the writer, they read a novel, kind of trying to have insight into life as to what forces in life positive and negative, bring about change outwardly or inwardly in characters lives. I mean, that's why we go to the storyteller. And so and so why would you not want change? Or why would you want repetitious change? Because the same change degree of change, that happens three times in a row, you know, we're bored. So because it's not giving us what we want, it's not giving us the insight that into character that we want. And so people who say they're opposed to structure don't understand what structure is it they don't understand, it's a dynamic and a progression of minor moderate major changes. And so I have no patience with that kind of ignorance. Hear the people who say that are the very naive, ignorant, really, people who think that if they just open up their imagination, emotion, picture will flow out of it.
Alex Ferrari 26:30 Very true.
Robert McKee 26:32 And, and they are childish in that way. I mean, you open up your imagination and see what flows out, then you have to go to work on it. And you have to step back from every, every time you you know, or let me put you this way. What in truth is it to write? What is writing actually, like, as an experience, you open up your imagination, and you have an idea for a character or two or three, and you write a page, things happen? Action reaction dialog, that when you write a page, that takes 20 minutes, then what do you do? You read that page? And you could take it does this work? would he say that? Would she act like that? would this happen with it? Is there a better way to do this? And is this repetitious? Is there a hole does it make sense, you constantly critique what you've written, and you go back, and you rewrite it. And then you read it, again, you critique it again. And this goes on all day long. And so you go inside to create, you go outside to critique, you create, your critique you curate, and the quality of your critique that guides your rewriting is absolutely dependent on your understanding to make judgments, when you ask the question, does this work? You have to know what works and what doesn't work. And, and so that on one level, everything you do is structure. Its structured to have a character say x and another character respond with y that structure action reaction, that the person who said x did not expect to hear why
Alex Ferrari 28:36 right exit Exactly.
Robert McKee 28:39 And that structure that beat of act reaction and human behavior, that structure. So is I said, People say this, say it out of out of emit amateur understanding of what the creativity, what the act of writing really is.
Alex Ferrari 29:07 And I, whenever I've come up against that, when I say no, every you know, every movie has some sort of structure. Most movies, especially popular movies have structure. And your definition of structure is wonderful. They always throw out Pulp Fiction, and I'm like, no Pulp Fiction is an extremely structured film. Do you agree?
Robert McKee 29:28 Yeah. I've when I was we were talking about when I was when they were doing adaptation, and I was working with Charlie Kaufman. Charlie had exactly that attitude. I said, the third act doesn't work. We have to restructure it. And in the end is his face went into a panic mode. He didn't want you know, scared the hell out. He said, I know. I know that. It needs some, you know, just it'll come to me it was a clo and whatnot. And it's as easy as I don't write with structure. He said that I don't write with structure. I said, Charlie, would you like me to lay out the three act design of being john malkovich as because it's a three act, play, want to hear them, act 123. And, and he almost ran out of the room. He didn't want to hear it. He wants to live in the delusion that it somehow flows, and there is no structure. And when in fact, subconsciously, at least being john malkovich is a three activist
Alex Ferrari 30:48 is a great, it's
Robert McKee 30:50 a model, it's a model, BJ Mack is a model three act design. But it's but to the romantic like, Charlie, he doesn't want to hear it. Because he thinks that that's going to constipate his creativity. And I have to agree with it. If he wants to write out of this notion that it's all a flow. And if he is aware that there's a, that there's a design happening, it would, it would inhibit him. So it's because he's a good writer, he's very talented. So it would be better for him to live in that delusion, and let it all pour out. And then he goes back, and his taste guides the rewriting and so forth. And, and, and so if you're talented, like Charlie and, and the idea of structure is frightening, then you should listen to those feelings. And not think about structure and just, you know, do what you do, and hope it works.
But
that's rare.
Alex Ferrari 32:10 Very, very, very rare. But yeah, but and so for everyone listening, you have to understand that someone like Jeff Hoffman is writing. And as he's writing, he's subconsciously working within the three act structure, honestly, on a subconscious level. And even the great writers is like, Oh, I never even think about outlining or plotting, is because they have such a grasp of the craft, that it's already pre wired in them. It's like me building a house, I wouldn't even think twice about how to pour a foundation, or how to how to how to lay out the walls, because I've done it a million times. I don't have to sit there and think about it, it's just done. But that is rare, and it takes sometimes years to get to that place or you're a prodigy, which happens once in a generation or twice in a generation.
Robert McKee 32:57 And and you're absolutely right. That's very, very well put and, and in fact, it goes beyond that you have been watching the stories on screen you have been reading them in novels, you've been to the theater, that form form is a better word than structure that form of action, contradictory reaction and reaction to that and a giant dynamic of action reaction building to change that is so built into you as a as a reader as an audience member from I don't know two three years old. Mother read your little you know, bunny rabbit stories, right? Your bunny rabbit goes out and something happens that not happy for the bunny rabbit and then you know of bunny rabbits mother comes along and pictures things whatever it takes, I mean that that form is ingrained in you from from the earliest. And so you do know it?
Alex Ferrari 34:08 Without question. Now you do more dialogue is something that is you've wrote an entire book dedicated to dialogue. Obviously, your first book is story. But your second book is dialogue. What are the three functions of dialogue in your opinion?
Robert McKee 34:25 Well, there's many of them and certainly one of them is is the obvious one of exposition by various means. So for examples simple in writing dialogue, a character has a certain vocabulary so for example, you you've done construction on houses, right? Some sure I And so how many different kinds of nails Do you know? From spiked to tact of,
let's say 10? Yeah. Okay. Now most people may know, to me one nail on a screw, basically, that's all they know.
Okay. So if if in there, if a character in their dialogue uses the, the carpenters terminology. And even metaphorically, you know, call something a five, many nail, right? The fact that he knows the difference between a temporary nail and pipe and whatever it is, his exposition is it tells us something about the life of this character, by the very word, the names of things that that this character uses in their vocabulary helps us understand the whole life of this character. So if somebody grew up, you know, around boats, and they use nautical terminology, right? And so that they the language inside of the dialogue, all that just the vocabulary alone gives us exposition, it tells us who is this character? What's their life been like? Etc. Okay, then, at the same time, the characters talking about things that are happening, or have happened. And when somebody says, you know, you're not going to leave me again, we are to instantly know, that's it, she's already left them once, at least before
Alex Ferrari 36:46 it says it says volumes with one word.
Robert McKee 36:49 Yeah, there's no word again. But so we have an insight into what their life has been like, in this relationship. And so that's number one is is, is exposition. And number two is action. When people speak, what they say, is an action they take in order to get what they need and want in the moment, but underneath that is what they're really doing. And it's what in the subtext, the action they take in the subtext is what's driving the scene? So when somebody says, Well, I didn't expect that. Right? What they're really doing, perhaps, depending, right, is attacking, criticizing the other person for doing something that's completely inappropriate. What they say is, well, I didn't expect you to say that I didn't expect you to do that. I didn't expect that. But what that is, is a way of attacking another person for inappropriate behavior. And so it's right. And so and so the dialogue is the text by which people carry out actions. But underneath the dialog, is the true action. And it that's based on a common sense, understanding that people do not say out loud and do out what they're really thinking and feeling. They cannot, no matter how they try, if they're when they're, when they're pouring their heart out and confessing to the worst things they've ever done. There's still another layer, where they're actually begging for forgiveness, let's say, right? So by confessing, actually, you're begging for forgiveness or whatever it is. And so dialogue is the outer vehicle for interaction. And, and the great mistaken dialogue is writing the the interaction into the dialogue. stead of having somebody confess, did they beg Please forgive me, please forgive me, forgive me, forgive me. Right. And, and if somebody is actually begging, there's got to be another level of what they're really doing underneath the baking. And, and so you have to, you know, the writer has to think to that by begging. What that dialogue is actually a mask for manipulating that person. Do what you have to do, right. And so, exposition, action. Okay. And then, you know, just beauty. Just Just wonderful dialogue, in character, and all that, but but a way of creating a surface that is that it draws us. Because, you know, we just love to see scenes where characters speak really well. in there. And even though even if we're using just gangster talk, good gangs, your dog, it's right to talk to each other and that kind of rap and that kind of unite. Right? That's, that's a form of beauty. It's wonderful, you know, it's pleasurable, right. The dialogue ultimately ought to be pleasing, and in his sense of kind of verbal spectacle. And so that's just, you know, that just three off the top of my head functions, but there's is there's much more right and I, I like I'm sure like you, we all love. Wonderful, memorable quotable dialogue.
Alex Ferrari 41:24 Yeah, very much like it's so obviously Tarantino and Sorkin and Shane Black and these kind of screenwriters, their dialogue is just, it's poetic in the way that they write something, certainly is, certainly, and the genius of them is they're able to do the first two things you said, within that poetry, as opposed to just poetry for poetry sake,
Robert McKee 41:46 which is, you know, that is that just decorative. They all happens all at once. You know, you're getting exposition, see who these characters are, whatever actions or reactions are driving the scene, and it's a pleasure to listen to.
Alex Ferrari 42:03 Now, one thing I've noticed in years and even in my own writing descriptions, in a screenplay, a lot of screenwriters, when they starting out, they feel like it's a novel. So, they will write a very detailed description about a scene or about something, where from my understanding, over the years, less is more and it becomes more of a of an exercise in Haiku is than it is in the novel writing. Can you kind of talk a little bit about the importance of of compacting your description?
Robert McKee 42:37 Well, it does need to be economical. Of course. On the other hand, it has to be vivid,
Alex Ferrari 42:44 right?
Robert McKee 42:46 And that's, you know, where does that balance strike you that the ambition is to project a film into the readers head. So that when they read their screenplay, they see a motion picture without camera directions without you know smash CUT TO for transitions and, you know, Dolly on and you know, and you know, pull focus, whatever nonsense, you got to use the language and description to create the effect of a motion picture, then you only use ideally, you only use the master shots, it you you only the the the shots, the angles, the setups, camera setups that are absolutely necessary. And no more you do not try to direct the film. And, and instead, you project a motion picture into the readers head. And, and, and so you need to it over, often in overriding and when, in fact, was not only overwritten, but it's not vivid. It's because writers rely on adjectives and adverbs. And what they need is to know the names of things. You know, he, he, he picks up what we're talking about before a big nail. Well, you know, big is an adjective. And so, put an image in the readers head, he picks up a spike. Spike is a vivid image. A he, he walks slowly across the room, will slowly is an adverb. Right? Right. And so you name the action of verb is the name of an action. He pads across the room he ambles, he strolls he saunters. He you know, Waltz's is an active verb without an adjective, adverb, concrete nouns without adjectives. And we see things and we see actions. And it becomes vivid. It reduces the word count. And, and here's here's something a good it's a good note for writers take your screenplay. And, and search the verb is or our urge is an are throughout your descriptions and eliminate every single one of them. know things are nothing is in a screenplay. Everything in a film is alive. And action. So you know, a name the thing. So a line like a big house, there, there is a big house on a hill.
Okay.
And what's a big house a mansion or a state? a villa? What's a, you know, a hill, a mountain. At add and add and turn it into a villa sits just that verb sits is more active than is a big house sits with a spectacular with this spectacular view. And so easy, a big house up high with a great view. And it's an image and it's active, it sits sprawls across, whatever. And so active verbs concrete nouns, and and make us see a movie. And every writer finds every good writer finds their own personal way to do that. And Paddy Chayefsky wrote elaborate descriptions. Harold Pentre described, nothing, nothing. He would just go interior kitchen dialogue, dialogue, dialogue, dialogue, describe nothing. And because his attitude was, we all know what a kitchen looks like. And they'll probably play it in the garage anyway. But if they mess if they mess with my beats of action reaction and you know, in dialogue, then they're in trouble. Okay, so every writer has to find their own way to accomplish the task of a vividly projecting emotion picture in the imagination, as you turn pages who make them see a movie.
Alex Ferrari 48:23 Now, your new book is called character. And I wanted to ask you a couple questions in regards to character because, arguably, I always like to ask the question, do you start with plot or you start with character I always say to people, you don't like Indiana Jones, his plots aren't nearly as memorable as Indiana Jones James Bond's plots aren't as memorable as James Bond. Like I don't you throw me the plot of thunder ball. I don't remember. I remember scenes, but I do remember James Bond. And that's what draws me back to his stories. So, can you talk a little bit about the difference between roles and character?
Robert McKee 48:58 Well, a role is a generic term. And so hero is a role villain is a role victim is a role. You know, sidekick is a roll. goon is a roll. shopkeeper his role in the role is as a position in a in a cast. as defined by its relationship to other characters, and or a profession. Like waiter, asked driver. And, and they're generic, they wrote something waiting to be filled by a character. And as a character comes into a story to fulfill a certain role but it's a it's a You know, it's it's a, it's a generic to that to that genre. And so if you have a family, the roles are mother, father, children guide, they're okay, those are roles, characters are our unique human beings, we inhabit those roles. And and there's a design of a cast, such that the protagonist, and the central character at role is the most complex character role. And they are they, they're, depending on the genre, they are the most dimensional character of all. And they are ideally, they, they are the center of good, there's a, there's a positive human quality, not every way certainly, but there's, there's some quality, within the complexity of that character, with which we recognize we empathize, we recognize a shared humanity, the character is then in orbit around that character that protagonists are less dimensional, but they can be dimensional as as well, then you go all the way out to the second third circles, where you have people only playing a role. cashier, restaurant cashier, okay. Now, even when you're writing a scene where your character goes up to the cashier in a restaurant, to pay a bill, and discovers that his credit card is cancelled, right, you have a clerk standing there, at the at the take, who takes the credit card and finds that it's, it's been rejected that clerk character, he be very useful to imagine that role, very specifically, what kind of human being, you know, is she or he, it because it does the, the way in which that clerk that roll says responds to your card is canceled. Your card didn't go through the, the, the way you write the words and gesture for that character gives her a trait. And so roles have traits and, and to make, even that moment, when there's a human being behind that, that trait. And so if she's sarcastic, if she's fed up with with the job itself or with with people whose cards never work, or she's sympathetic because her cards don't work.
Alex Ferrari 53:19 So,
Robert McKee 53:21 so, even in a in a simple role like that, you try to write it with a as a specific trait in the way in which he deals with that moment. And it creates a character for an actor. And so the actor come in there and realize, Oh, this is an antagonistic clerk or this is a sympathetic cleric, or an indifferent or bored or falling asleep, or glancing at her watch constantly, she just wants to get out of here, whatever it is, you give her a trait. And that makes her a character, she sends the GM to life and it gives the actor something to hang their performance on. And so dimensions the protagonists, the most dimensional of all dimensions are contradictions within the nature of the girl. And so you populate that with in my book on character, I look at characters everybody from from Odysseus in Homer's Odyssey has an eight dimensional character, all the way up to Tony Soprano, as a 12 dimensional character Walter White, as a 16 dimensional character. And so and so the complexity of character today given long form television, especially, is at is becoming your astronomical And then you have to give all the, that every one of these dimensions if a character is, is kind and cruel, okay? Sometimes they're crying, sometimes they're cruel. Therefore, you're going to need a cast of characters where the protagonist, when they meet character a, they treat them kindly character B, they treat with, with a slap with cruelty and, and so you need to design a cast around each other characters. So that when, whenever any two characters meet, they bring out sides of their dimensionality or traits of behavior that no one else brings out of them. And so, every single character is designed that whenever they encounter any other character, they bring out each other's qualities in ways that no other character does. And, and when you have a, you know, when you have that kind of cast, where every single character services, every other character, and no redundancies every relationship is unique. every relationship develops a different aspect or a different dimension. Then you have a fascinating group of people that creates a world that the audience can really
Alex Ferrari 56:38 dive into,
Robert McKee 56:39 dive into now, you know, when characters when and carrot one characters behave toward each other in the same way, no matter who it is. That, you know, that's it's a boring and do it's false. People do not treat other people, different people the same. Everybody behaves in a uniquely subtly but uniquely different way, depending upon the relationship. And it takes a lot of concentration and imagination in the writer to realize that every relationship brings out different sides of the character's nature.
Alex Ferrari 57:21 Now, I'm gonna ask you a few questions. Ask all my guests. Robert, what are three screenplays every screenwriter should read? You see? I don't answer that question. Okay. For this reason, I don't want people to copy anybody. Okay, fair enough.
Robert McKee 57:46 And so if I say, you know, if I named my, you know, my favorites, like, say, trying to tell people you know, then run to study Chinatown and emulate it. And that's a mistake. The really important question to ask people is, what's your favorite genre? Because they should be writing the kind of films they love.
Alex Ferrari 58:15 It's a good point, what
Robert McKee 58:16 I love, what are my favorites may have nothing to do with their favorites. And so the first question is, you know, what do you love? What kind of movies do you go to see what kind of things do you read? What do you love? And then seek out those? And the second thing is that if I name favorites, and, and that they, you know, they're in their pieces of perfection. Okay. What does that teach the writer? They got a model of perfection. Great. Okay, that's important, you should understand you should have an ideal, what you're trying to achieve. But one of the ways to achieve it, is to study bad movies. break them down and ask yourself, why is this film so boring? Why can't I believe a word of it? Why does this fail? and break it down and study it? To answer what this What does it lack what went wrong, etc. Okay, and then rewrite it.
Alex Ferrari 59:37 Just thing,
Robert McKee 59:39 rewrite it. fix that broken film. Because that's what you're going to do as a writer. Your first draft is going to suck. And you're going to go in and try to fix your broken script. Try to bring it to life. Try to cut edited shape and rewrite it reinvented, you're going to read it over and over again, right? Having fixed broken films, not just one, but many, many, many take bad movies, studying them and make them make them work is practice for what you're going to have to do with your own screenplay. Because it's not going to work in the beginning, it's going to need a lot of work to work. And so having rewritten bad films to make them work is, is a real learning experience. And so I say, study good films are of your genre, so that you have a an ideal that you achieve, rewrite the bad ones to teach yourself how to fix broken work. And so, and that's a personal choice. I can't say what that should be for those people. For every one of them, loves whatever they love, which may or may not be what I love.
Alex Ferrari 1:01:00 Now, where can people find out more about you? And where can they purchase your new book character? Amazon? It's pretty much it is pretty much it nowadays, isn't it? It's pretty much it nowadays, isn't it? Amazon.
Robert McKee 1:01:17 bookstores, I'm sure are opening up. And if you know if you love bookstores, as I do, you know, you can go to a bookstore and get it. But the most direct way that will be there in your budget for the next morning. It's incredible what they do, what Amazon does, and bash, you know that the other other Barnes and Noble stew or whatever it is, but yeah, it's very simple. You just go to amazon.com. Right? Just write the word McKee. And comes story, dialogue, character, in hardcover, in an audio and in Kindle,
Alex Ferrari 1:02:05 and everything else? And then how can people read it? And how can people learn more about you what you offer?
Robert McKee 1:02:13 Ah, the go to make peace story.com. The key story.com will take you to our website. And we have a upcoming. We've been doing webinars now for a year and a half since the plague hit us. And they've been very successful, very, very pleased with it. And in July, we're doing a series on action. Nice on the action genre. And so these, these are every Tuesday, three Tuesday's in a row. And they're two hour events, hour and a half worth of lecture and a half hour of q&a. Then on Thursday, I I give an additional two hours of q&a.
Alex Ferrari 1:03:01 Fantastic.
Robert McKee 1:03:03 And because I realized how important it is for people to get answers to things they're working on. So So Tuesdays and Thursdays for three weeks in a row. And there's you know, four hours of material each week. So and we will we will look at the action genre in depth with lots of illustrations and examples of an adage and I love giving these acts. webinars. And it's a favorite of mine. Actually,
Alex Ferrari 1:03:38 I love a good action movie is it's hard to come by nowadays. So I appreciate it. Robert, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to to my audience and I appreciate all the work that you have done over the years and help so many screenwriters as well. So thank you so much for everything you do.
Robert McKee 1:03:54 It was a lovely chat. Great chat. Nice talking to you.
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You should all know this by now. I love bringing on different perspectives on the craft because you never know what might click for someone. At the end of the day, we are all trying to tell a and compelling story.
I invited to the show this week Julian Hoxter to talk about his book, The Creative Screenwriter: 12 Rules to Follow and Break to Unlock Your Screenwriting Potential.
Julian is a published writer, lecturer, and screenwriting story consultant with extensive experience in scholarly writing.
After film school at UCLA, Hoxter returned to his homeland, England, where he served as a senior lecturer at Solent University for some years before starting up at San Francisco State University, where he currently is an associate professor of cinema.
Hoxter’s latest textbook, The Creative Screenwriter: 12 Rules to Follow―and Break―to Unlock Your Screenwriting Potential, distills the craft of screenwriting into 12 key elements, from developing your story to revising and rewriting, plus plenty of inspiration to create your screenplay with confidence. It encourages readers to look behind the scenes at iconic films using a classic screenwriting structure, along with experimental films from innovative writers that have transcended the rules and paved their way to the silver screen.
Apart from academia, Hoxter has been producing his independent features, documentaries and doing rewrites collaborations with other filmmakers. One of his most known productions is the award-winning documentary feature, Imagine a School… Summerhill, produced in 2009.
Other must-read textbooks or scholarly papers written by Hoxter include, Off The Page: Screenwriting in the Era of Media Convergence, The Pleasures of Structure: Learning Screenwriting Through Case Studies, and Theorizing Stupid Media: De-Naturalizing Story Structures in the Cinematic, Televisual, and Video Games.
Keep an eye out for Hoxter’s sci-fi novels that will be out soon, The Ballad of Coopy Meakes.
I collected a lot of knowledge bombs from chatting with Julian. Enjoy this conversation with Julian Hoxter.
Alex Ferrari 0:11 I'd like to welcome to the show Julian Hoxter, how you doing?
Julian Hoxter 0:14 Hey, I'm good. Thanks. Nice to be here.
Alex Ferrari 0:16 Thank you so much for being on the show. I wanted to have you on the show to talk about your book, the creative screenwriter 12 rules to follow and break to unlock your screenwriting potential. And like I I've said so many times before, I love bringing on different perspectives on the craft, because at the end of the day, we're all going towards the same place a good story. And how you get there could be one person's way could be another person's way could be a million different ways. And I always like to expose the audience to as many different ideas because you never know, what will click with the right, or what the right right, would you agree?
Julian Hoxter 0:51 Completely. I'm nothing. You know, I teach screenwriting at San Francisco State, we have a number of people that teach screenwriting, and they're all really good. But you know, if you're a student, you want the person not only who knows what they're talking about, but who you kind of click with. And sometimes that's me, sometimes it's very much, not me. And that's fair. You know, there'll be people who don't like my accent, don't like my beer don't like the fact that I'm an old fat white guy, all these good things. And yet, hopefully, there'll be others who will find that I have something of value to offer. So,
Alex Ferrari 1:20 I mean, to be fair, I think the accent really adds credibility to your teaching. As an American.
Julian Hoxter 1:27 I have a nine o'clock lecture start, I reckon it gives me 20 minutes, just sort of wake up into the coffee to begin to percolate inside me before. You know, they really listening to what I'm saying. And they're kind of in that, Oh, my God is actually set up but in America. So yeah, I count that as an advantage. Yeah,
Alex Ferrari 1:46 No question. So how did you get into the business?
Julian Hoxter 1:49 Well, I went to film school, went to UCLA many, many years ago. And, and then I really discovered a love of teaching. And I went back to England and got a job part time teaching at a university. And then that became full time within it began to run department and on it went, and so I've really been education for a very long time. And in that time, I've been working as an independent filmmaker. I've made some documentary features, done some rewrites, on, you know, indie features, and so on, and so on. And but also, I've been writing and working on more scholarly work. So the history of screenwriting, and the state of the industry, and so on, and so on. So I kind of straddle two camps. I'm partly a screenwriter, partly, you know, story consultant. But I also research write and teach it income status.
Alex Ferrari 2:45 I have a curiosity, you talked about the history of screenwriting, I actually have never had that conversation with anybody. What is the history of screen? Right? Like, I know, like, when, when Edison started with his camera, you know, they were just kind of like doing short little bits. But like, at what point was there a screen? what we, what we considered any sort of guidance, as far as a story is, and then what we would know, as a screenplay today.
Julian Hoxter 3:10 Well, I mean, I think very early, there were what you would call scenario writers. And indeed, even before 1920 there are people who are writing books, like like what we're talking about today, you know, how to write a screenplay or, or a scenario. There are people who are pitching ideas for short comedy movies, and, you know, concepts as opposed to fully drafted scripts. And that comes a bit later that comes more in the as we're approaching the classical Hollywood period, perhaps. But you know, Griffith was making features in the in the teens, you know, when we, whenever we say about them, that they're very, very important. And people were writing some form of a screenplay, some form of a scenario from almost from the word go.
Alex Ferrari 3:52 It's also went so in the teens, you know, did what was that big, epic film that he did not Birth of a Nation, but the other one onwards, intolerance? Did intolerance have a screenplay? Well, I
Julian Hoxter 4:03 don't know. I'm sorry. Yeah. Did they don't have a specific answer to that? I don't recall. But I think what you have to kind of understand is that, you know, this is a period where everyone is kind of learning what it means to make films, right. And there are different versions of story that are going around that, you know, we don't come to the the sort of modern screenplay, you know, fully formed. Even in the heart, even in the classical period, you have a range of different formats. And of course, you know, until really into the 40s and 50s. The screenplays were a list of shots with they weren't, they weren't all very, they weren't typically broken by scene, they were broken by shot and scene. So, you know, these formats have developed over time and the formats also have developed according to the role of the screenwriter in the process. So in the 50s when you move After the Paramount consent decree after the the studios had to divest some of their divisions, and after they basically sort of said goodbye to having buildings full of in house screenwriters with screenwriters became independent or semi independent, and freelance, you know, one of the things that changes is the way that you tell a story on the page, a screen story on the page. And, you know, you begin to tell a screen story to be read, because the reading is part of the gatekeeping as to whether or not you're going to get your, your, your story sold. Before or, you know, you'd go and you'd pitch to the producer, you'd pitch to the studio, as a writer, you know, within the the writing department, after, after we get into the freelance paradigm, well, you have to tell a story a different way, you can't just be be having been given a pitch and you're writing out a list of shots, it doesn't quite work that way. I'm simplifying the course.
Alex Ferrari 5:54 Right. So it's a basically a, you know, when they were in the studio system, it was more of like a mechanical document of like, shot, shot, shot, shot shot, where afterwards, you have to become a little bit more of a crafts, artistic crafts, man or woman to kind of sell the idea a little bit better, I
Julian Hoxter 6:11 think so that sense of wonder, entrepreneurial ism entrepreneurship, which is the way a way? You know, that's something that I think has always been part of a brighter shake, they have to be able to sell their ideas, but it becomes more and more important, I think. I'm sure, yeah, but, you know, and I think Yeah, you know, writers learn that their style is the sales pitch as much as whether you can do a, you know, an elevator pitch in 20 seconds and get get the producer to know, you know, like, what you're what you're selling, because the whole relationship between writers, the studios changes, and the whole way in which writers interface with studios, or writers agents interface with studios, and the idea of kind of, you know, story readers who who sit as the gatekeepers, you know, between the writer and and the studio, you know, that becomes more and more important for writers to deal with and engage with, you know, from the 50s 60s 70s onwards, you know, and that sense of the development of coverage and how coverage is incredibly important, not only for the scripting hand, but for your reputation within an organization and so on, you know, we'll look back and see, well, what what coverage Did you get last time you submitted to ask them something?
Alex Ferrari 7:25 And then in then, so when you hear of a of a studio or an agency signing a writer based on their voice, even though that script that they might have submitted will never in a million years get produced, but they look at it as a voice that is their style? That is their signature in the marketplace?
Julian Hoxter 7:43 Yeah, during misquote the cones, you know, that that's their button thing feeling, right. I mean, that's exactly what you want, or what what you just said, Right, yeah. We can discuss the realities, but, you know, is is somebody who has a unique voice, and you know, that we've got we've moved beyond in the in the, the tentpole era, such as you know, we can call it that. We sort of move beyond the time in which writers write specs with the expectation of selling the spec. And now, it's the expectation of selling themselves, as you as you indicated, or these rights aspects are still being bought, but the market is way down from where it was in the 80s and 90s.
Alex Ferrari 8:23 Oh, god yeah, I mean, I love talking to sometimes I get the pleasure of speaking to some of those those screenwriters when they were like getting $3 million a script $2 million. If you're finding out what Astor house I mean, Jesus. I mean, he, I mean, he, I think he made I think, what was the I think 20 or 25 million on scripts that never got produced? Yeah. Like the other obvious examples? Yeah. It was an insane time and but a lot of screener I still think today that that's a thing where it does happen, but it's rare. It's much rare.
Julian Hoxter 8:55 I mean, it's, it's, I was researching a book a couple of years ago, and I try to remember who actually, was it john August, I can't remember. I can't remember who it was. Someone may made a really good comment. But now it's a less than you guys. That the there really isn't a kind of market for the journeyman screen black screen. Right? What you have, I mean, again, I'm simplifying course sure. But what what you have now is you have a list guys who are going to have their own relationships and are going to you know, maybe have a you know, first looks or whatever but, but are basically going to typically be asked to do rewrites. And then you have the new guys who are cheap and get the one step deal and then get fired so that you can, you know, afford the, the writer to come in for a lower rate or rewrite rate and then rewrite the new guys script. That's more of a pattern, though, the idea that there are screenwriters who are, you know, able to get to maintain a living in the way that was the case two decades ago. It's a lot
Alex Ferrari 9:57 it's a lot tougher to become not only become a great But to make a living as a screenwriter because that the studios are not making as many movies as they used to all the movies that they are making are based off of IP, or or, or existing comic books or whatever that they're dealing with. So the the market for independent ideas are basically regulated to the independence or the many majors. And even then, they're looking for IP as well. No one's dumping 100 million into a, into a spec script, unless there's a massive actor massive director, Master producers attached. Right.
Julian Hoxter 10:33 And this is one of the reasons I mean, you're absolutely right. And this is one of the reasons why when I'm teaching screenwriting, you know, at my college, that we're developing classes, and we're developing competencies in asking students to think beyond the screenplay, and to think about, you know, what do you need to do in this convergent world? In order to become visible to Hollywood, and it's partly, you know, you'd like to screen then you can show to agents and you can win competitions, and you can do all the all the all these things. But even so, Hollywood is not interested unless there's an IP with some track record, typically behind it. Yeah, how do you go about getting that track record? Well, maybe you write a novel, maybe you do something online with, you know, online comic? Who knows? Maybe you do your own independent comic book, maybe, maybe you? Maybe you, maybe you, maybe you Maybe so, you know, one of the things that I think that we have to do as educators, and here I'm talking as an educator, is to think about how do you prepare students to be what I loosely call screenwriter? 2.0, right? Because if you think of screenwriter 1.0, that's, you know, the the person who I mean, there may also have been journalist or novelist or something else in that time, but basically, the person who, you know, wrote movies, that was their career, they did as well as they did. But that was kind of what they did every now and again, maybe they did something else. Whereas nowadays, I think that the young writers coming up, the screenwriter 2.0 model is the screenwriter, who is also thinking about all these other media, all these other convergent media, all these other ways of beginning to get an idea out there, particularly if they want to work in, you know, in Hollywood as we might still define Hollywood. And it's the twin track, right? If it's my IP I want, I need to get some kind of audience. If it's my spec, well, my spec no longer is what I'm selling. I'm selling myself, as you say, because you know, what we want? If we're a studio is someone who can, you know, write the next IP based movie for us?
Alex Ferrari 12:36 Exactly. And, and I've seen I've seen a lot of success with podcasts, like, you know, different podcasts that people are writing story based podcasts narrative, podcast that turned get that get picked up, gets, they get optioned, and, and obviously, calm, independent comic books, novels, I've seen a lot of screenwriters, create novels off of their screenplays, and sell them and then get optioned the book, when when their screenplay was rejected, they'll option the book because it becomes a bestseller, or even if it doesn't become a bestseller, even it has some sort of success. For the for the for the studios, a lot of times, they just feel more comfortable, because it covers their ass a bit more.
Julian Hoxter 13:14 But as you know, this I mean, it's precisely it's a theater of media, right, particularly when you're an executive at a big studio. And because there aren't the development budgets anymore, I mean, it's, you know, the upside, I guess, is that if you're if you do some spec, it's much more likely to actually get produced now than it was in the 80s. Right? Where it's like one in 20. Now, it's like one in three or four or five, maybe out of date, numbers, but you're much less likely to actually sell that script in the first place. I mean, so is that a trade off? You want? I don't know.
Alex Ferrari 13:47 Yeah, it's it's it's it's a new world for writers as well as filmmakers, you Oh, we have to be thinking of multiple revenue streams, other ways to make money other ways to, to maintain your, your, your craft that your career, and I've seen film, I've seen screenwriters who write those novels, and they generate money automatically from self to self publishing their own stuff. Every month, there's money coming in, keeping the lights on while they're chasing the screenwriting dreams and getting assignments or selling a script or something like that. But it's those writers who are like making a living and that could be blogging that could be that could be podcasting. That could be teaching, it could be a million different revenue streams that you can create as a screenwriter.
Julian Hoxter 14:28 You're absolutely right. I mean, this is why I developed a class for SF State in Greene storyworlds, right, which is about developing an IP and thinking about how that IP might work. Yes, by all means is a feature film, but also you know, as a anything from a TV show to a comic book to a blog. Yeah. But this is exactly correct. I'm think we're on the same page with them.
Alex Ferrari 14:50 Absolutely. Now, you've been working with screenwriters for a long time. What is the biggest mistake you see first time screenwriters make
Julian Hoxter 14:58 Oh, Good question. There are many. You know, I mean, I'm lucky that I work with very inexperienced screenwriters, people often don't have the the confidence that they can actually do that thing, literally functionally, let alone sell anything. And yeah, my number one job, I think, I think I'm coming around to answering your question. My number one job, I think is to actually give them the confidence that they can do it. Now, maybe that comes from, you know, the people who I'm seeing, you know, who I think, you know, need that sense that somebody is taking their their work seriously, is going to engage with it seriously is going to give them you know, hard but fair feedback, but on the basis of encouraged them to move forward and finish the first draft, I think one of the things that people get wrong, is the idea that it's fine to, you know, quit halfway through and start another project. And, you know, I think that one of the most important things if you're a young screenwriter or or Sweden just starting out is finished your draft. And the the screenplay itself might be garbage, right. And I, you know, hold my own hand up here, of course, I've written bad screenplays, and some of them are on the shelf over there, and I will never look at them again. But no one else will ever either. But that sense in which once you've done it once, however bad, you think the outcome is, and you know, you might come back to it in five years and actually find something that's, that's interesting, and you want to develop further. But how bad the outcome is, you know, you can do it. And then the second one is easier. It's not easy, but it's easier. Because you don't extraordinary difficult thing. And then when I think about you know what I do, as an educator, you know, I'm asking 18 1920 year olds, to write a feature, a feature screenplay, that's an incredibly difficult thing to do. at any age, and obviously, there are some writers who come to us and they're wonderfully prepared, advanced and they want to breeze through, you know, they, they, they find it less, less difficult. But there are a lot of kids who come, you know, with very little competence in their own abilities. And with lots of, you know, good reasons why, you know, writing is something that doesn't come naturally. And, you know, the more they do it, and the more they engage with the process, the better they get.
Alex Ferrari 17:17 It's like building, it's like building a table, like you build the first table you build, it's gonna be pretty bad, I'm sure. And then the second table get better, the third people get better, and so on and so forth. And that's some of the best advice I've ever heard from, from screenwriters that I've spoken to is like, right, right. Right, just keep right. I don't care if it's bad, just right. I mean,
Julian Hoxter 17:34 yeah, I mean, the kind of part two of that is right, every day, is something that that relates to writing every day, it can be actively thinking about stuff and taking notes, it can be, you know, going to a location and seeing if it inspires you, because you think it might be of interest in your script, it can be anything, but if you feel like you're doing something that relates to your writing every day, then it becomes part of your life. And it isn't the thing that sits there going, haha, you haven't done me today, you know, and then becomes kind of the, the the unspoken, you can't do it that sits behind you, you know, you find ways of engaging in the writing process, engaging in the creative story thinking process every day. And, you know, it's one of those, you know, take care of the pennies and the pounds or the dollars will take take care of this. Get my currency, right, get take care of the cents and the dollars will take care of themselves.
Alex Ferrari 18:27 Right, exactly. And it's like they say, you know, you tell the Muse that you're going to be here every day. She shows up every once in a while. But if you're not there, she might even you might miss her. Yeah, that's nice. I steal it. I stole it from somebody. So yes, please, what writers do right? Well, I've got and that's another thing. We let's just this dismiss all of this thing. Like, Oh, I can't, you can't steal from everyone steals from everybody. Every director steals from every director from the first person who made a two shot. It's been stolen by Martin Scorsese. And everybody has stolen from Martin everyone's to and Spielberg stole from Kurosawa and copalis. It's,
Julian Hoxter 19:03 and the good ones admitted, right? the good ones. Yes, of course, this was my influence, but I tried to do something with it, you know, right. You know, the bad writers steal good writers or influence, you know, I mean, this is no,
Alex Ferrari 19:16 no good. Good. Good. Writers borrow. Great writer steal. There you go. Exactly. And it's, but it's so true. But like, I remember when Tarantino showed up, everybody tried to be quittin. And you can't, like he is such a unique voice in the craft. There's literally he's a once in a generation writer. And level writer, period, let alone screenwriter, there's just so many things going on the complexities of what he's writing and how he's writing and how he's delivering it. You can't and they trust me if you remember the 90s when when Pulp Fiction came out how many Pulp Fiction ripoffs came out and none of them were anything close, but also
Julian Hoxter 19:59 he had no cyclopedic knowledge Oh, it's insanity, all kinds of cinema that you wouldn't even think about it, you know? Absolutely. And when I was in film school, it was shenbang. Right? It will be the weapon came out. Everyone was reading that screenplay, the Shane Black isms, you know, the kind of idiosyncratic way in which he wrote, everyone was copying that, and it was a, you know, yes. But you, there's no substitute for having your own voice.
Alex Ferrari 20:27 And that's the thing. And I think a lot of times people start as a writer, at least I've done it. I know, a lot of other writers who's told me the same thing as they'll start trying to copy someone else in their style. But then as you go through the process, your voice comes out through it. And they have I think that happens with all writers, I think every writer who ever read something is influenced by how many people have been influenced by Shakespeare. I mean, people have been destroyed by Hemingway, or Dickens. And then you start to start down their road, and then all of a sudden becomes your thing. But you got, you got to kind of like work out that thing. I think it was, I forgot who it was. It was a famous musician, who said that when you start writing songs, it's like turning the faucet of a bathtub. And the first stuff that comes out is sludge. It's just deep, muddy sludge. But as you keep letting it run, it starts to clear up and clear up and clear up until the point where it's crystal clear. And now I can start writing. So you got to get those bad drafts out as fast as possible.
Julian Hoxter 21:29 I couldn't agree more, I think, you know, the other way of looking at it, and this is with my sort of scholarly hat on is the idea that we are all media texts are into texts, right? They are a combination of things that you know, that you're being influenced by, and things that you had no idea, you know, so, you know, it's like the cliche write what you know, well, of course, you're gonna write what you know, what else can you do? And that's partly a conscious process. That's partly thing. Well, I want to be in the style of x. And that's partly, you know, you are the accretion of experience and and neuroses that you are. And so that's somehow going to manifest in how you write. Yeah, I mean, I, there's just no way of saying what you said. But
Alex Ferrari 22:11 I agree with you, 100%. Now, one thing that a lot of people, a lot of writers specifically, I've heard, say that structure is too formulaic, that it's going to make it No, I'm not going to just be a formula guy or gal and I need to be free and free flowing in my ideas. I can't be boxed in by structure. What would you have to say about that?
Julian Hoxter 22:31 It's a great question. And it's a huge topic. I mean, one extended thing, it depends on who you're writing for. Right? If you're making your own micro budget movie, you can do whatever they, whatever the hell, and I'm not sure what a profanity filter is, whatever the hell you want, right? Sure. But you know, if you're writing with a particular market in mind, then you have to be professional about it. And there are many different versions of it in between kind of, you know, formula and complete an artistic freedom. I think, for me, I look at it this way. That understanding how most movies stories with relatively mainstream movie stories are told, is a very, very powerful tool. Because that gives you a set of questions that you can ask yourself, when you're getting to a certain point, and you're not quite sure what to do, or how to do it, you can go well, alright, well, what are most movies do at this point, and then you can assess what you're trying to do. So for me, that's where I think, formula or or structural paradigms, structural models are useful, because they give you opinion, or they give you a way of disciplining, your thinking, and a way of cutting through and asking the real questions, as opposed to the what if generalized questions. But yeah, I mean, all all models. And really, frankly, most of most of the people who write about screenwriting, including myself, are basically saying the same thing with little tweaks. You know, and it's really about whose version of eloquence Do you do appreciate it? I think I think that understanding a model, I don't care whose it is, you know, a model is a very, very useful thing, because that gives you a basis for your own thinking. And that also makes you think, if I'm going too far away from this, am I actually really going to be talking to the people I need to talk to, but using it as a kind of crutches is not what you want.
Alex Ferrari 24:29 Yeah, I was talking to a screenwriter the other day and he told me that basically, all stories are either three 3x or or four at the most you can try to cut up a movie you can cut it up an 8x it's it's irrelevant, because but certain things that happened through into stories in popular films, it throughout history, without question hit these marks, all the time, even Pulp Fiction which is out of order in the conventional in the Have that story in the way he wrote it and shot it and edited it. Even though the stories are timelines off, the hits are happening at the points where they should be happening. So that's why it seems like an experimental film, but it's not. And it's so brilliant. That's what the brilliance of pulp fiction is.
Julian Hoxter 25:21 You can say that doesn't make it not clever. But yeah, but we'd have to wonder what it is. Yeah. I totally agree. Yeah, yeah, it was something. momento or Yeah, I mean,
Alex Ferrari 25:30 some momentum is another one. I mean, look, I mean, anything Christopher Nolan, for God's sakes. I mean, he's always, you know, messing with time and everything in it, like inception, and Interstellar and all of those things. But they all hit those marks. I mean, you, you, you That's why you look at a movie like any David any David Lynch movie. Any David Lynch movie. They're not there. They're all over the place. And that's why his films, you know, I think, I think Blue Velvet was the closest, maybe, maybe Elephant Man, Eraserhead? Possibly. But blue velvets, probably his most mainstream story was also one of his most popular Mulholland Drive. Like it's all like, Can you can you not? Can you can you pin those things on monitor? I
Julian Hoxter 26:20 don't think you can not in terms of convention or means a loop. Right, literally. And as is. Yeah. I mean, I think I think you know, but then when he's trying to be semi conventional, like the blue velvet or like with the original Twin Peaks. Yeah, he's doing that to, to expose the conventionality as a as its own kind of artifacts, right? So I mean, he's not, he's not being conventional. He's, he's showing you that he's being conventional, if you know,
Alex Ferrari 26:47 exactly, but it's so so for everyone listening. So I just want you to kind of look like someone like Tarantino, who sometimes seems like he's unconventional. The genius of Tarantino is he's completely conventional within this unique structure that he's created and characters and things that are strictly his. But when you look at someone like David Lynch, who's like, I mean, pinpoint a movie that has a conventional, it's very rare to find, because he's making art films. And that's okay, that's okay. as a as a writer, as a director, you can do that. But if you're trying to sell to the studio system, you're trying to sell a conventional process, you need structure, you need to pin. And I personally, when I write I love structure, because it gives me a goalposts to write it makes me feel a lot more. It's like, this is the this is the lane that I'm in, and I can play within this lane as much as I want. But I can't go off roading.
Julian Hoxter 27:40 Right. I think that's a stimulant, but I feel basically exactly the same. I always want to know that I have some fallback, some fallback questions to ask myself, you know, and to begin to kind of judge what I'm doing against, unless I'm really, you know, going off into the wilds of micro budget funds. But having said that, one of the great things about the contemporary moment for screenwriters, and there are many not so great things, and we've kind of covered some of them already in the discussion, is the fact that micro budget is is is alive in a way that it never really was previously, and that, you know, you can be Shane Carruth and make primer for $7, or whatever, he made it for it. And you can be, you know, a queer filmmaker, or a woman or a person of color, you know, and be making stories that are deeply meaningful and radical, without having to, you know, deal with the system. In many ways.
Alex Ferrari 28:36 I feel that this I feel that the system is as we know it, because I mean, you and I both kind of grew up in this, I think we're similar vintage close enough to the vintages of our age. So we kind of grew up in the, in the, in the time when the system was the system. I remember when that, you know, Warner Brothers was putting out 15 to 20 movies a year, at some of them are $5 million, maybe $10 million movies, you know, and then occasionally would have these big budget things where now it's just like, everything's a big budget, everything but it's all very calculated based on IP and things like that. They were taking chances. I mean, can you imagine taxi driver today? Can you imagine raging? Raging Bull? Maybe we'll get made, but you can make a version of taxi driving for 10 bucks. And if you make Yeah, yeah, but within a studio system, I know exactly. No way in hell that anything in the 70s will become a Midnight Cowboy, LA.
Julian Hoxter 29:30 But also all the short movies that I grew up with, right. I mean, john carpenter and army, then name any genre Movie Maker of the 70s 80s 90s. You know, a lot of that's gone. I mean, yes, there certainly is new iterations of things like horror movie and blumhouse and, you know, and so on, and that's cool. But, but you know, where is this, the mid levels are a movie that they kind of don't exist, or at least they're very few of them that either really schlocky and kind of their budget or they To be $300 million, because, you know, one of the lessons that we learn, you know is that the B movies become the a movie and and so now there's genres are our tentpole genres as opposed to being, you know, knockoffs,
Alex Ferrari 30:12 right? And then specifically, like, you could make a $30 million genre piece with john Carpenter directing back in the day. And that was acceptable. Now, do you need Guillermo del Toro to make it and it becomes an art piece? And when's the Oscar? You know, it's,
Julian Hoxter 30:28 I mean, there's this horrible word niche, which which applies to like most of where India is gone, right? It's an indie there's like, niche or crossover or specialist. And then, you know, you're in this indie wood frame where you're kind of working in a very different notion of what independence is. Yeah.
Alex Ferrari 30:46 Yeah, that's the Sundance $3 million independent film. That's Yeah. With with major stars attached. Well took pay cuts. Yeah, that's not indie to me. It's, and I'm glad that those films are getting made. Because they're, they're telling there's telling stories that might not get made. But when I see them at Sundance, sometimes I'm like, really? Do you? You got an Oscar winner in your movie? Yeah, sure. It cost you a million dollars to make and they, they're working for scale. But you know, where are the where the ED burns? The Spike Lee's that Robert Rodriguez is the Quentin Tarantino's the Kevin Smith's of the world, all that 90s crop of filmmakers, where are they? None of those guys would even make it today. If they were coming out and I and I've spoken to some of them. And they said the same thing. I'm like, would you would brothers MC Mullins show up today? He's like, never just what it wouldn't get the light of day. so much stuff going on in the today's world. So it's a very interesting place we are in history.
Julian Hoxter 31:40 You know, I couldn't agree more. And it's a place that sort of, weirdly, simultaneously, a place of more opportunities and way less opportunities. It's a strange, a strange, you know, scary mixture between the two. I think what I
Alex Ferrari 31:55 think today, though, I think that before the barrier to entry was creation. Now creation is not the barrier to entry. Now its marketing its eyeballs is getting to an audience is getting seen is that's that's the art now were the creation of it used to cost so much. But now, like I made my last two features were made for under 10,000. And I sold them to Hulu and internationally. Because you know, and they got sold. But that's that's the world we live in today. It's about that as well. And I think also for screenwriters, you know, the competition for screenwriters is I think there's more opportunity now for writers than ever in history of Hollywood. So many shows, so many things going on,
Julian Hoxter 32:35 streaming is fascinating is where it's gonna be in five years, I don't know. But right now, it's it's genre breaking, it said, there's a whole lot of really interesting things going on.
Alex Ferrari 32:44 That's where all the independent film makers went. That's all the independent writers went, because they can't go,
Julian Hoxter 32:49 which is one of the reasons why I mean, I'm not an expert on TV, but it's one of the reasons why what's so fascinating to me from the outside, about streaming is that all of these film, people have gone into television. And they're trying to renegotiate what a series is, what an episode is what, what it means to write, you know, sequential narratives, and the the breadth, the variety that we're getting all that works, of course, but you know, is is really fascinating. And I think that's something that is changing the model. And there's kind of a battle going on, it seems to me between, you know, those shows that are invested in the idea of the episode and the episode is actually a good thing. The episode is something that you want to, to kind of cherish you know, for its own purposes, and those who basically want to kill the episode dead and chop their long movie into, you know, random 30 minute 60 minute chapters, you know, and so, so that the war for sequential narratives is ongoing and I'm very interested to see where it ends up
Alex Ferrari 33:51 there basically is like, I want all the Harry Potter movie all the Harry Potter books out now as opposed to waiting little by little year after year waiting for them to all come out is like I want the whole story right now or I'm gonna value the episodes. And there's there's Netflix's and there's the hulu's of the world. Like I'm waiting for Handmaid's Tale and every week I'm like, right away. It is horrible. You know, I'm so used to just like bingeing everything. But it's a it's an interesting place we are without question. Now in your book, you also talk about mechanics, and some of the mechanics the screenwriters need to learn what are some of those mechanics?
Julian Hoxter 34:30 Well, I think there are many, but for me, one of the keys is format. And I think one of the things that certainly my experience of my students, one of the things that they often leave behind or feel a little bit frightened or is actually being creative with format, and realizing that format on the page is something that isn't simply a chore isn't simply a lesson to be learned, you know, slugline and the Scripture and character and dialogue. But once you get beyond that, it's something that you can be very literal. Memory with that you can be very stylistic that you own and that you can use as, you know, a creative tool. And I think that's something that often students take more time to come to terms with. Because, of course, you know, if you haven't written a screenplay before, and you're trying to think about story and character development, all the good things that you have to do structure falls down the, you know, the, the gap sometimes. So one of the things that I try and do in the book a little bit, but also, you know, my classes is really to show examples of format and different genres and different kind of styles, and get them excited by how to use that creatively, as opposed to just being, you know, the, the shorter learn, and then you do the basics, and then you move forward. And that's just one example.
Alex Ferrari 35:52 Now, can you talk us a little bit about the sea of white, that most producers, the sea of light, on the on the page, they want to see as much white space as possible, and that descriptions are not novels. And they have to make those concise?
Julian Hoxter 36:08 I mean, there are lots of reasons for this one that I've mentioned up front, I'll come back to exactly what you're talking about, is the the idea that, you know, when a producer or certainly a reader is engaging with your script, what is going to turn their blood cold, you know, particularly if your sample in turn, it's got 20 scripts through, you know, is is as walls of text it both in dialogue and in an inscription. But also, you know, the idea is that what you want to try and do is replicate the style of the movie on the will be on screen as much as you can in the way in which you set it up on the page. And sometimes that's about trying to anticipate things like kinesis, you know, movement, dynamism, action. So there are ways you can play fast and loose with with grammar and syntax, and you can carry a sentence over and we, we, your eyes move on moving us through, and we're kind of getting excited and reading fast. And that sometimes is exactly what you want. But anyway, what you want to do, you know, in my opinion, is to think away from, you know, the big descriptive paragraphs and to think more in what I call 40 images. So the sense that you aren't calling shots unless you have to, but what you're doing is implying shots by describing something succinctly, eloquently, and then line of wide, and then describing something else. And it's like, what you're doing is effectively calling the shots through, we're looking at this, we're looking at this, this happens as develops. And I think that's something that, you know, we just take a little bit of time to learn, but their instinct is to kind of you describe what's on screen, and you end up with, you know, the wall of text that we all want to avoid. But the idea of the 14 years, the idea that what you're doing is trying to inspire readers, directors, actors, and give them every opportunity to kind of launch from your disposable pages, you know, and and make them feel invested not only in the story in the abstract, but actually the style that you're implying that it will feel like once it's once it's on the screen, that I think is really important. And it's you know, the joke I was making, not much of a joke, but you know, is that when you have the director talking about their vision on late night talk show, you know, there's a there's the screenwriter, with his or her whiskey shouting on the screen saying that was my line, you know.
Alex Ferrari 38:30 But that's been going on since the beginning of I mean, what who was it was a jack Warner or something like that, that said that, you know, did this movie, this was great if we could just get rid of the writers or so. It's I can't remember the exact quote, but I know, it's one of those things. Now, one of the most difficult things I think to do as a writer is to develop a story out of an idea. How what what advice would you have for that?
Julian Hoxter 38:59 Again, you know, I guess I would backtrack a little bit. And I would say it depends what where the idea comes from? It depends to a certain extent, what what is the spark? Because sometimes the spark is a plot idea or a setting idea. Sometimes it's an image you get, and I wrote a novel I'm working on that just began with an image, an image came to me and I was interested in that image. And I began to ask questions about it and said, Well, why is that person doing what they're doing? What where is this What's going on? Sometimes it's you know, character. Sometimes it's a situation it's something political, with a small or large P. So the idea can come from anywhere. And I think that your first job is to give that idea space and begin to interrogate it and ask it logical questions. And those logical questions are really story by story telling questions. Because as soon as you ask, you know, here, here's my image. Well, okay, that's a character in that image. Who are they? What are they doing there? Why that Why are they feeling what they're feeling? What is the world around them? And so you begin to spider diagram and kind of expand beyond. So that is the kind of the organic development process, right, you begin with some Spark, and then you begin to kind of ask the questions. The other process is, you know, I guess to kind of think, cleverly about genres and hybridity. And, you know, loglines and think about well, okay, if I, if I take this, this kind of horror movie, but I add this kind of element, well, what does that become? And then I begin to expand it out. And I place a character in that world, and I see what goes on. So there, I guess there's top down and bottom up versions of story thinking, but this is really the only the beginning of it, then I think, you've got to decide, well, alright, who's my audience? Who is this for? Is this going to be a relatively conventional movie? Or am I kind of going somewhere way off on my own either, which is entirely fine, just deal with the consequences either way. And the consequences are relatively mainstream is you need now to talk the language of development in your own thinking. Because even if you don't conceive of the world, you made the point about free apps and forex a few minutes ago, and I agree with you completely. But even if that's not how you instinctively think you need to be able to articulate your idea in those terms, because that's how development things. Yeah, you know, and, and so I think it's, you know, another reason why it's a good idea to have some relatively coherent notion of conventional structure to fall back on, is because you're going to have to explain it that way to someone who doesn't have magical insight into your creative brain isn't an idiot, and does understand what they think story is and how it works. And you have to meet them halfway and be able to, to explain it. So this is a very good way of a reason to say no, you don't have to be formulaic, but you have to be able to talk to people who understand story in a certain way. And if you can do that, and if you can make your story work in that kind of frame, somebody will take the idea seriously, in principle, whether they like it or not, is another conversation in, then you begin to get into more. And then you begin to think about genres. And what kind of genre is this. And, you know, George has come with their own histories and joys, and also constraints, you know. And so all of these questions begin to put flesh on the bone on the bones. And I think that unless you're running up against the other, the one thing I would say on this is, unless you're running up against some really hard deadline, give yourself the luxury of time. Because I think, wherever your idea comes from, and however you begin to conceive it in terms of, you know, genre, and our audience and market and all these kind of pragmatic, professional questions, the more time you give it, as long as you'll be active with it, and thinking about it, the more chance there is that you're you'll develop it organically, rather than forcing it to a point comes where, you know, either you got to, you know, shut off the pot, right? I mean, you actually got to do something. But, you know, I think I've always got 234 story ideas that are somewhere in the, in the bubble of my cauldron mind, you know, different layers of levels of cooking, whatever I'm working on. And that's also a really great thing to have as a writer, because it means that, you know, you've got more than one idea, you know, you have things to move on to it, and you feel like you're part of an ongoing process of creative thought, and you aren't just I have this one idea. This is all I know, if it fails, my life is over, you know,
Alex Ferrari 43:28 there was, there was a movie I was watching the other day that which is gonna lead into the question I'm gonna ask you, I was watching a movie The other day, and I absolutely did not care in the least about the main character and what he was going through. And I was watching the movie. And I started to saying, you know what, I'm going to watch this to see where this goes. Because I'm curious on what the writers and the director, and the acting was good and had a nice cast to it. But no one I couldn't grab on to anything that the main character, I didn't care. The only moment at all, which I found interesting that I even remotely cared is when the main character was in some sort of real peril. Like they were going to go to prison because that they were wrongly accused or something like that. But throughout the entire movie, there's no stakes for this character other than emotional stakes that I really didn't care about. It wasn't enough and not enough to like hook on to. So what are some things that you like to see in main characters?
Julian Hoxter 44:26 Well, again, it comes down to this old writing cliche of needs, you know, but they need to need something. And, you know, I think the way I conceived the story is a lot of narratives is that you know, you have story and you have plot and and plot are things we see on screen surface action, and all the rest of it. And plot and story, you know, is this sort of motivational arc, right is why characters do what they do? Beyond the simply pragmatic, you know, someone shoots out in the dark, but I think, you know, understanding needs in relation to story and plot that will be the shorthand and theme. So if you don't have a coherent theme for your character, if they are trying to achieve something, trying to, you know, men some break, get some advantage. Find a woman man, the horse of their dreams. And I meant that in a golden pony kind of way.
Yeah, yes. Yes. That in a in a weird way. Yeah. And, you know, I think I think that's what gives stakes because then what you've done in your first act is you've established that this is a real person who has real flaws wants needs in the world. And you know, they make a decision to go out and trying to achieve that. And that's something that we want to see. That's what the basis of the story is. It doesn't matter how plot driven your story is. I mean, you can think about some movie like 2012 that's the the Mayan history. Yeah, the big the big world crushing it, then
we go to that movie, because you want to we want to see California fall into the sea, right? It's a spectacle. specter. Exactly. But But what holds the movie together is it's a story about, you know, some failing writer who can't keep his family together. So the story of the movie is about the john Cusack character, you know, trying to prove that he's not a deadbeat dad, and he can get into that video. Do we care about that? No. Is that how the movie sold to us? No. But it's coherent. And it's there. And that's the underlying narrative that holds the whole thing together, and allows us to forget about it and enjoy California falling into the sea. So even in very, very plot driven movies, you need that sense of character coherence behind the plotting. Otherwise, it's simply an exercise in stylistics.
Alex Ferrari 46:50 Right, so, so a character like Indiana Jones, who could have who could have been a very one dimensional character, I mean, because and the question asked me, because after Indiana Jones came out, a lot of one dimensional copies of him showed up and other in other films. But the thing that the theme, and that the I don't know if there's a theme, but the need behind Indiana Jones is that he wants to protect archeology, archaeological treasures, and they because they belong in a museum, they belong in a museum, and he fights for that if he was just a treasure hunter, or if he was just a grave draw arriver which so many of his copies were, they fall flat, but because of that one little tweak in the character that there's a real earnest ness about why he's doing what he's doing. That's what drives his character.
Julian Hoxter 47:39 I could not agree more. And this is why you know, what wonderful as some of the Tomb Raider books are books of games are books. You know, that's why they don't work as movies because you don't have that kind of lesson. But the other thing of course, the Indiana Jones has, is a really engaging B store. Right? A really engaged antique stores. Yep, yeah, we see that he's basically an asshole. But, but also he you know, he will sacrifice himself to save Marian, Marian. And of course, not the Marian always the saving, right. I mean, this is one of the joys of the movie is the man you know, so so she can meet him on his own ground which is which is you know, cool all these you know, they they sell are out a little bit here and there
Alex Ferrari 48:24 but basically, and but the whole but the whole the whole list, but let me looking at Raiders, the whole thing has so many different layers, so many different things going on subplots, other storylines, you know, making Indiana Jones who is essentially a superhero of its of his day, his kryptonite of snakes and how hilarious that is, and giving him a weakness like that. Throughout the piece, and all of these things. It's great. And then like looking at Last Crusade, where the thing that brings him, like kind of like weakens him as his father and his relationship with his father join. Yeah, it's so brilliant. Yeah, yes. Please, please continue with your Sean Connery, sir.
Julian Hoxter 49:10 That's all Yeah. Well, I guess what, by the way, when I was growing up, you know, if you're a kid in England in the school in the 70s, you didn't have a bad Michael Caine or you've never bad Sean Connery, you and so on. So,
Alex Ferrari 49:20 obviously, I guess
Julian Hoxter 49:23 we'll always Indiana Jones. Yeah. I mean, and this is also the way in which, you know, its own intertext right, going back, this is how you land a bit or not, is only intertext as you know, an adventure movie, a kind of mash serials, you know, all all the other genres that can come in, you know, is so wonderful because every each one you do allows you to do a different thing allows you to add another element to it. And also, you know, but I think we were talking about you know, style and style of writing and how that you plays, you know on screen one of the things that, of course, makes Indiana Jones also so real is the fact that you don't have digital statistics. Yeah, facts don't you have people who actually getting dragged behind trucks and all the rest, and it may be somewhat less dynamic than, you know, the Avengers movie, which I admire in some way. But, you know, you feel that he's been through hell to get where he's going. So not only is he emotionally had to deal with things, and not only has he has to deal with his integrity, and the fact that you know, Nazis hate those guys. But also, you know, you can feel how he's been beaten up, all the way through the movie, and it feels like, it feels real. But it feels real in a way that most movies made the last 20 years never do.
Alex Ferrari 50:52 Right. And even when that showed up, it was something that really, people were just completely blown away by, because it was just something you've never seen before. One thing that I really love to hear your opinion on is mixing of genres. When you when you collide genres, that's where some really interesting things happen. So, you know, Star Wars, or let's let's deploy, by the way, that's what I have to do. So, so let's, let's combine something very contemporary Mandalorian, which is a spaghetti western, meets a sci fi film. That is, it's not a sci fi film by itself, it's not a spaghetti western by itself. It is a mixed genre. And because of it, it allows for so many different tropes and things that you couldn't do in its own if they was just to separate. There's things that you can't do in a spaghetti western that you can do a Mandalorian. And there's things in the Mandalorian you could do you can't do in a sci fi standards. ffl. Right.
Julian Hoxter 51:48 I mean, you know, thinking about the history of screenwriting, one of the great interventions that the first star was made is the idea of centering the assumptions around the potential hybridity, right? I mean, this is the thing that you know, Star wasn't a samurai movie, Star Wars was Western star was a science fiction, movie and cereal. And so and this is getting to the end compared to what we were talking about with Indiana Jones. So that sense in which hybridity has become increasingly Central, as opposed to occasional King is a really, really important idea and one that you know, if you're, if your pitch if your movie, if your spec has an interesting hybridity to it, it's actually much more likely to get read seriously. And
Alex Ferrari 52:36 a sci fi romance is more interesting than a romance, like, the great movie somewhere in time. When Machina Christopher Reeve you think it came out in like 80. But that was a a back in time romance sci fi film, but it took place in like, Victorian times, if I remember correctly, or the wet at something like that. But it was it was a romance sci fi, I mean, Back to the Future. Right. I love Ladyhawke.
Julian Hoxter 53:09 Oh, of course. Right. You know? Well, so Exactly. And I couldn't agree with you more, I think. But I think this is one of the great things about the current generation of potential writers is that they think I bring it in almost instinctively. Now. Because I grew up I have so much it's almost one of the things I don't have to teach in my classes on all the teaching Exactly. But you know, because my, my students are coming from video games, and they come from comic books, and they're coming from, you know, everything that's going on in YouTube in the media and tik tok, and who knows what stuff that I I wouldn't know, because I'm too old. You know, and I think that they're already doing half of that thinking. And that's very encouraging. But yes, I mean, I think that this is right. One way of thinking about it, though, is what is your lead genre? And what what is the hybrid your and how are they colliding. So an example of that I would take would be the first alien alien, which you know, opens as a science fiction, we're a science fiction, but we were on a spaceship, people are waking up, they're figuring out what the hell's going on. And then it becomes obviously an old dark house film, that becomes, you know, here's monster chasing us through the house, and the horror comes into it. But the lead is science fiction. And that I think, is important to understand, you know, what the, the hierarchy and the most important part of of alien is the horror is the the nature of the alien being and its stages and its abilities. But, you know, it's sold as a science fiction movie in which these other things happen. So thinking about what what genre leads and what genres, you know, infested, but also thinking also not just about hybridity, in terms of mixing two or more genres, upfront, but also the idea of mode. And the idea that there are times in a movie where another kind of genre can bleed in infested and then can go out again. So if you think of a movie like Silence of the Lambs, right, which is a procedural, right? And, but there are moments when it absolutely invests itself in horror, but those moments come and go. So, you know, for example, when lecture spoilers when Lecter escapes, and we think that he's injured some cop very badly, and they're in the back of the ambulance, and he sits up and takes off, so great, not only a CUDA, CUDA cinema, great moment, but also that's like, that's modal, right? That's the moment where another drone goes up, and then back down again, as opposed to being the constant. Right? You know,
Alex Ferrari 55:41 like alien, like, alien would be like, yeah, yeah. And then and then, of course, Cameron took aliens to another level where it took whore action, sci fi and war, right. And he jammed those all together. And I think Cameron specifically who, oddly enough camera doesn't get the credit that he deserves as a writer, because he's so well known as a director being one of the most prolific, you know, and, you know, most popular directors of all time, but his genres, the way he combines genre, and all it Titanic, True Lies. I mean, from the beginning from Terminator, he's combining genres and themes. That you know, the is is pretty remarkable, like in Terminator, I mean, I mean, there's a few things going on in Terminator between science fiction, action, the almost like the Immaculate Conception, idea, you know, like, he's got a lot of stuff going on. But he's been doing that throughout his career in almost every movie. And I, when I talked to when I talked to some, some very popular screenwriters, Cameron is one that always pops up when I talked to them. They go, yeah, just James man. Jim knows how to do this, or Jim does that. And like avatar, I mean, I just love to talk to you real quickly about avatar, because he gets so much crap. A lot of a lot of other writers. They're like, Oh, it's so visceral. So that, but yet, yet, he was able to combine, you know, it's basically Dances with Wolves, beats ferngully, and jammed in those two ideas, and then jammed in a bunch of other things as well. But the way he presented the story, it touched a chord in humanity, because it's still the biggest movie of all time. 12 years, however, long later, it's still holding strong in the era of Avengers, which it did beat of avatar for a minute, but that avatar got re released, and it took over again, you know, but it's, it's remarkable with Cameron and Avatar, like, What? How would you analyze that? Because it is it's, you know, it's I can't say it's paint by numbers, because it's not, it's it's this it deceives it's, you are deceived by its simplicity, but yet the complexity behind it? Well, I
Julian Hoxter 57:59 think, I guess where I come in, is, I think it's two thirds of a genius movie. And then the last one. In other words, it feels like all of the things that invested me and engaged me that cleverness growth, you know, I mean, again, as you say, it's not it's not most complex film well, but, but the cleverness Of The Avatar system, and other building relationships and all this kind of stuff, which, you know, half of me is going Yes, yes, yes, I get, I get where this is coming from and how this is working, but it works. And but, you know, that setup I found genuinely engaging and interesting, I like the world and IV and all this. But, but then it kind of defaults to an action movie. Yeah, then, you know, there are, you know, the humans has fallen to cliche, and it's so obvious that I have to hate them. And, you know, almost, I kind of lose interest. It's well done. I mean, it's amazingly, you know, as a piece of spectacle, it's very effective. You know, the flying around those those hobbit ships and more wrestling. But, but I kind of lose interest because it What happened, the hybridity, kind of the balance of the genres went away from me. And I began to feel that I that I was less interested towards the end.
Alex Ferrari 59:14 But when you see you see a film like avatar, or, you know, or like any of you go back to aliens. It's not a complex story. The stories are not like mine, Turner's they're not like a Nolan film, but they're executed to almost perfection. It's kind of like making a chocolate chip cookie. The recipe is not complex, most people could do it, but when you execute it perfectly, it's the best chocolate chip cookie ever.
Julian Hoxter 59:43 Right. And it's also a film that back in if you think back 20 years ago, it's a film that actually use 3d creatively and Well, no, no. So this is not in one sense. This has nothing to do with storytelling and I was in has everything to do with storytelling, you know, right. That you know, that there have been these You know, more recent experiments and with 3d and they were okay and whatever. And then I remember sitting in the cinema and watching avatar in 3d Oh, oh, okay, this is different. This is this is this is this is not like these other things
Alex Ferrari 1:00:14 was that when Hugo when when Scorsese to Hugo, he used 3d. Yeah, purposefully and with design and style and it's not just converted. It was designed that way and I saw I only saw avatar in the theater in 3d. Like I've never seen it in the theater without the 3d aspect. And it's arguably when the only movie I enjoyed in 3d, honestly.
Julian Hoxter 1:00:36 Well, exactly. This is what I'm saying that that I'm all for 3d when it actually becomes, you know, even radically part of the aesthetic. And I think people did it in avatar. You know what? Well, it simply becomes excuse to charge me 10 bucks more for my seat I'm not interested in.
Alex Ferrari 1:00:52 And I think the new avatars are going to be honestly the thing that brings people back to the theaters. It's going to be expected next time, next, next summer or next winter, I think it comes out 2022 it comes out. But then they're coming out every two years after that, where every year after that, because he's got all four of them in a row. But But I think that would be the film that brings people because I don't want to see that at home. Like there's certain films I don't want to see at home, I want to get that spectacle. Well, this,
Julian Hoxter 1:01:20 this brings us I couldn't agree with you more again. But this brings us back to the big unknown right now. What is the future of cinema as an institution as an opportunity to sell me popcorn? And I think obviously, the 3d was seen as being, you know, a life extender? And is it still you know, where are we going to be? I don't have an answer to that. Where are we going to be in 246 10 years time? Or are we going to have a few cinemas to show us specialist movies? Or are we really going to have a healthy exhibition sector? You know, I wonder?
Alex Ferrari 1:01:56 I think I personally my opinion is that it's going to go the way of Broadway. I mean, plays War The only thing for a while, but now, plays are expensive things that you go to in their spectacle in their high productions and things like that. And I think 30 or 40 years, seeing an independent film at a cinema, you know, or seeing a comedy or seeing, you know, is is going to be rare and rare and rare. Because it's just the way it is, but but I don't think it will die. I just think it will. It's gonna be spectacle. And there might be arthouse things like like there's like there's Off Broadway, or there's like, you know, plays somewhere else. There always be some form of it just like plays are still there's no reason to go see a play. But people do see it because it's enjoyable. It's a different form of art. Right? I mean, I
Julian Hoxter 1:02:41 guess I guess he I mean, my instinct, I think I think I'm I largely agree with what you said. On the other side of it is the question is, where does that where does that social interaction go? Where? Where do kids go on dates? Where does it where what becomes the replacement for cinema as a social activity?
Alex Ferrari 1:02:56 is a very, it's a Ready Player One. Is that what it is? No, but like is that you? And I can't conceive of it because we didn't grow up with it. But my daughters are coming up and they're playing Roblox or, or, you know, or World of Warcraft or things like that. Where Warcraft? Yeah, you're in the digital space. And then that gets into a whole conversation. It was like, why people buying NF T's? And why are people you know, it's it's a different mindset completely than what we're used to in the analog world.
Julian Hoxter 1:03:28 No, you're right. I mean, I mean, absolutely. And, you know, I'm, I'm in well, Walker, I'm in the guild and ready to do these things. So obviously, that social space is something I'm familiar with. And yet, you know, I think, I think the that sense of, of the virtual versus the real, you know, where where do a gender and gender be or both genders the same? You end up where they can where they can be 14 and touch each other and make out in the back row.
Alex Ferrari 1:03:54 I agree. I don't know where that's gonna be. It might be movies still. But it might be. It might be it might be something else. Oh, I
Julian Hoxter 1:04:02 mean, that's the interesting question. Right. So I guess all I'm saying is that's my that's my big unknown as far as the future of the future exhibition. I don't know.
Alex Ferrari 1:04:11 Yeah. Yeah. So let me ask you, what are three screenplays every screenwriter should read? Ah,
Julian Hoxter 1:04:20 this is one of the questions that if you said if you sent me this one before, I might have had a really interesting question. Um, okay. Let me try and find a quick answer. flicks in Sundance
Alex Ferrari 1:04:35 comes up often. Coleman Of course. Yeah.
Julian Hoxter 1:04:41 And the thing by Bergman I was in translation, but just anything by Bergman, Alex Cox's Repo Man,
Alex Ferrari 1:04:49 Repo Man, oh, under a certain definition of my favorite film, that's my favorite film. Oh man is one of those that deals with hybridity rapidly. Oh gee. uses does it? I mean, that's, I mean, look at they live. Oh, oh, god that just the fight scene alone is worth the price of admission. Well, you wouldn't back right? Yeah. Oh, rowdy right, s&p, sir. Now what? What advice would you give a screenwriter wanting to break into the business today?
Julian Hoxter 1:05:21 Again, great question, tricky one, I think it well. Part One, it depends on what you mean by business. If you mean Hollywood, if you mean big, big budget movies, then you know, it's about having enough experience that you can, you can really write a screenplay, you haven't just managed to struggle through one you've got, you've written 234, you actually have that set of skills as a writer and you're flexible. Second is that you are an entrepreneur, you need to be an entrepreneur, you need to be able to talk to people, you need to be the cliche, good in a room, you need to be someone who has the guts, and the you know, the arrogance without being a dick. Ideally, to be able just to go and talk to someone, you have to be able to make connections, you have to be able to, to build relationships, because it's still a relationship driven business. Which kind of means that you can be a writer, you can be successful and not live in LA. But to be to start as a writer. Yes, I think that's trickier not to be in LA.
Alex Ferrari 1:06:25 I'm from Southern Indiana know, from someone who lived outside of LA for a long time, and I've been here for 13 years now. I get that I understand it. Is it possible to do it outside of La? Yes, no question. There's other places that have a lot of production in the United States. And if you're outside of the United States, you know, London and other other places within each country has but but la does something as its as of this recording, because there's an exodus right now, as of this record, there's an exodus out of California, that you learn here at a quicker pace, because you're working with people at a higher level than you would outside this market. And it's not because they're better or worse, it's just because they just do it so often, that you just get that experience much faster. Like I learned more in the first year, I was here that in five years of living in Florida doing the business, it's just, it's just that kind of thing. And the connections are here, the connections or hear you,
Julian Hoxter 1:07:26 and even if even if you take the route of you know, starting as a PA and wherever else, and just and just getting the experience of being on sets and meeting people, you know, you're gonna meet people, you're going to meet producers, you're going to meet people who are at a level that when they want to help you, they can help you. Oh, by the way, the worst thing, of course, you can do is turn up the first day I was on a on a shoot and talk to the producer and handling the screenplay.
Alex Ferrari 1:07:46 But don't, don't
Julian Hoxter 1:07:48 don't. But you know, we have a relationship. And then the point will come where they will say what have you got?
Alex Ferrari 1:07:56 That's the only the way I always tell young filmmakers and writers about making connections and stuff is, and I'm sure you have this experience as well, we can smell desperation coming from a mile away. It is a very bad scent. And you can smell it. If you're a professional. I've been in this business for a while. So when somebody just wants to meet from you, I need from you, I need from you, I need you, I need this and you need to do something for me that energy, you can smell it in a heartbeat. Whereas the opposite is where you go, how can I be of service to you? How can I help you? And it could be something super simple, could be more complex, and you start building relationships that way, because that's how friendships are built.
Julian Hoxter 1:08:35 Exactly. I mean, listen, I mean, I think again, I think you've hit the nail on the head. And what I would say is that the to some people who listen to this, that might sound like he's being cynical, he's not being cynical. Because, you know, it's about building a human relationship, which is based on trust and respect. And that, you know, frankly, if you meet somebody higher up in the industry, there's nothing they really want from you.
Alex Ferrari 1:09:00 What do you have to offer Steven Spielberg? Right, other than your willingness to be human helpful? And yeah, I mean, I've been of service and I promise you, that is very valuable. Because at when you meet people at that level, when you can connect with them at a human level authentically, that is rare in their world, because everybody's always trying to imagine being Steven Spielberg. Imagine walking into the last 30 years to every room, you walk into every eyeballs on you because you know you're you're kingmaker, you can literally just go you, you now shall direct you You shall write and with one touch of his hand, it's your your your The door opens Can you stay there is up to you. But the door opens opportunities open. And I've and I've had the pleasure of speaking to people who've, and by the way, Spielberg has touched so many careers, so many careers. It's he's one of the most giving people in this business. But can you imagine being him walking around with that
Julian Hoxter 1:09:59 I won't Exactly. But I mean, it's like this, that everyone in Hollywood or the industry knows that every relationship is, in some sense, contingent is some, in some sense in some way. So, you know, given that you need to try as hard as you can to be as human as possible, you know, so that that's not what you're thinking about when you're engaging with someone. Well, that's all they're thinking about. Right? And if you know if people like you, and they want to help you, they'll help you.
Alex Ferrari 1:10:28 Yeah, and also Time, time, right? I'm sorry, yeah. And it takes time. And it's not gonna happen in six months. I've had, I had relationships with people for three or four years, before I even asked them for anything, or before they even offered anything, because I learned that along the way, whereas when I was younger, I would walk on the set script, or the idea. I'm like, Hey, can I have your card? I got this thing. It's going to be worth me. I.
Julian Hoxter 1:10:54 Of course, you did. Because it's the law. Right. And I say this, you know, when you're young, and you're an asshole, you don't know. I mean, it's just, you know, I mean, with all due respect, but yeah, sure. Yeah. I mean, this is exactly the exactly the thing.
Alex Ferrari 1:11:07 Yeah, without question.
Julian Hoxter 1:11:09 I'm just saying, This is definitely something I'm going to show all my all my students because what you said there is, is so important.
Alex Ferrari 1:11:17 Yeah. And I and it's, I appreciate that because I I talked to filmmakers and screenwriters on a daily basis. And I talked to the most experienced and I've talked to the most that, you know, naive and delusional it of our species, and, and it's there's nothing worse than a delusional filmmaker who thinks that they're, I always go like, I always pretend to be this delusional filmmaker. And I'll say, when Why hasn't Hollywood knocked on my door? Why haven't they recognized my genius? I don't they understand that I am the next Tarantino or the next Nolan or the next Fincher, don't they get it that why haven't they just seen my short film and just automatically just given me a check? Why hasn't Sundance allowed me into their their little festival when they should be recognizing my talent? These are? These are serious conversations I've had with filmmakers who are and screenwriters to, who are they just think because they wrote something that they're owed someone to read it? That's not the way the game works, guys at all. And I'm sure you deal with it on a daily basis. I have nothing to add to that. That is that is. that's it in a nutshell. No, I mean that. Yes. And finally, last question, three of your favorite films of all time, I know Repo Man is on the top of that list. Now the Wicker Man original, the original. You mean the Nicolas Cage? Obviously the genius Nicolas Cage. The bees the bees? No, no, not No. The boy. originalism work of Jesus. Okay, we mentioned bourbon diversion spring. Okay. Great, great choices. And can we all agree that Nicolas Cage is a national treasure and should be it should be treated as such? I'm sure before Mount Rushmore or wherever, where, wow. But what I'm dying to have. I'm dying to have him on my show one day, or at least just get to speak to him one day, right? Because he is. I just love him and everything. with you. I think he's terrific. He's awesome. And you know what I love about him. And this now we're going on the side on a side side thing here. But what I love about guys like Nick, it like I know him, Mr. cage, is that they take swings at the bat. Where they get on Bay, the when they get up to the to the bottom of the batter's box, they take big monstrous swings. And you need artists to take swings like Nolan Nolan takes massive swings when he shows up to bat, you know, there's the safe bunkers and the first base hits and but then there's these guys that just show up and if a swing and they strike out, they take the hits, you know, and that's the kind of artists
Julian Hoxter 1:13:55 which is why you keep them on the roster, because you know that next time they're gonna
Alex Ferrari 1:13:59 they're the they're the big giant guys that just like they catch one. I'm trying to make a segue to cricket here, but I just done it. This is I don't know, what is it? Exactly. Yeah, it's best I can with baseball. I've had a few. I've had a few Brits who just like, I'm with you. If it was soccer, excuse me football. It would be. It'd be one thing it'd be cricket. But you get the idea. I totally get the idea. Julian has been an absolute pleasure talking to you. I know. We could probably talk for another hour. Where can people find out more about you can look up your books? Well,
Julian Hoxter 1:14:33 they exist on Amazon. I don't have a functional website right now. But hopefully that will emerge soon. But I'm on faculty at San Francisco State University in the School of cinema. And that's where I do my teaching. And you can find out
Alex Ferrari 1:14:47 more about it. I'll put links to all of that in the show notes. Julian, thank you so much for for sharing your knowledge bombs with the tribe today, sir.
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Our guest today, is expert storytelling educator, author, and UCLA professor, Richard Walter— bestselling author of Essentials of Screenwriting: The Art, Craft, and Business of Film and Television Writing. He recently retired as Professor and Interim Dean of the UCLA School of Theater, Film, and Television where, for more than forty years, he chaired the graduate program in screenwriting.
The amazing thing about Richard is he has been the instructor of some of the most amazing screenwriters in Hollywood history. A handful of them has been on the show, including Sacha Gervasi, Jim Uhls, the writer of Fight Club, and Paul Castro, just to name a few.
He’s written scripts for major studios, television networks, and even wrote the earliest drafts of George Lucas’s American Graffiti. Talking to Richard in this conversation was essentially sitting front row at a masterclass of storytelling and screenwriting.
It was an absolute treat talking to Richard. Not only has his work been appreciated in the US but in other parts of the world, conducting lectures in London, Paris, Jerusalem, Madrid, Rio de Janeiro, Mexico City, Beijing, Shanghai, Sydney, and Hong Kong.
He complains that L.A. has relentless good weather which he says, ‘Is not writing weather’, yet, in 1988, he released his first instructional book Screenwriting: The Art, Craft, and Business of Film and Television Writing (Plume). This was followed a decade later (2000) by his debut novel Escape from Film School, which tells the sprightly tale of a young man who makes it in Hollywood without ever leaving film school.
Richard is one of the few OG writers who have studied, and taught through the evolutive eras of screenplays and screenwriting in Hollywood. With his wealth of knowledge, he released his third and most recent book, Essentials of Screenwriting: The Art, Craft, and Business of Film and Television Writing. In this one, he shares the secrets of writing and selling successful screenplays for aspiring screenwriters.
It contains highly coveted lessons and principles from Screenwriting with material from his companion text, The Whole Picture, and includes new advice on how to turn a raw idea into a great movie or TV script and sell it.
Besides his outstanding career, we chatted about his love for Spike Lee films, we talked about screenplay structuring and many more. It’s been an absolute treat talking with Richard.
Alex Ferrari 0:43 I'd like to welcome to the show Richard Walter, how you doing Richard?
Richard Walter 3:31 I'm doing well. And thank you I'm happy to be here.
Alex Ferrari 3:34 Thank you so much for being on the show. I mean, we've been trying to get this going for about a year now.
Richard Walter 3:39 My fault
Alex Ferrari 3:42 but I've always wanted to have you on the show because a lot of my former guests have been your students like Jim boules was your student I think Paul Castro as well and a bunch of I mean to me I mean the list goes on and on of your ex students
Richard Walter 3:58 That was my teaching assistant. And I also brought him in to teach from time to time after he had graduated.
Alex Ferrari 4:07 Yeah, exactly.
Richard Walter 4:08 I am I am blessed in crossing paths with with artists like that. I consider myself very, very fortunate.
Alex Ferrari 4:17 Yeah, exactly. So I've always heard about you through my other guests and then when I did research on you like I gotta get Richard on the show and we just one thing led to another my schedule your schedule technology, but we're here now and we are
Richard Walter 4:28 we're gonna get the students might you know, my dad rest. His soul was a musician and quite a successful musician, the bass player primarily in the classical repertoire, but also jazz and pop, and it was primarily a performing player. But he also was the bass department at Juilliard. The outstanding a world class music conservatory needs to say that if he was working with musicians have limited talent That'd be okay. You're still reaching, you know, you're still working with people who are trying to be creative, who are reaching and stretching and taking risks, you know, with their lives. And that would be an expansive even though they're not going to, you know, become successful professional musicians. Being part of supporting creativity in that way is an affirming expansive experience for the treating the structure. But more better. He is to say, if you're going to teach artists, you might as well teach the best scientists in the world. And that's what we have at Julliard, he would, he would tell me and that's what we had at UCLA when I was there. And I'm sure Still, we still do. And it is a blessing to, to work with writers of such skill, as the two names you just mentioned, have been guests on your own show full Castro and GMOs boy, by the way, made a film that was produced by another student was Lewis. He, you know what, but we we butt heads with these students. They compete with us, they challenge us and they keep us fresh. They keep us from getting into the kinds of ruts and grooves that you can get into in a freelance community, like the screenwriting community in Hollywood. So I am the lucky guy in that in that equation.
Alex Ferrari 6:16 Yeah. And you? I mean, you use the chair and obviously teach at UCLA is famed screenwriting program. When I when I've heard I was hearing about it, I think even from Coppola went to UCLA. So I mean, even back then, I mean, you see, there's obviously there's USC and UCLA and NYU but UCLA screenwriting, it was unpair. Yes.
Richard Walter 6:37 Yes. I am, myself a Trojan to I went to film school. at USC. In the 60s. George Lucas was my my classmate. We call that the Lucas era, but I'm told George calls it the Walter era. Just joking, just like to say we were the first class to move on from the academic community to own Hollywood except for George, who owns Marin County.
Alex Ferrari 7:07 Pretty much and I've been there I've been to Marion County, he
Richard Walter 7:10 it's funny his the ranch is on Lucas Valley Road, but that was Lucas Valley Road 100 years earlier. You can't make this stuff.
Alex Ferrari 7:19 There. Yeah. When they were looking for it when they're looking for property from what I saw. They were like, did like which ones should we pick? And George like? Well, I think we should pick the one on Lucas value.
Richard Walter 7:31 In any event, yes, there are, I think three major film schools and it's UCLA USC and NYU. People that a if I will argue with me, I think asi is a great institution. Some people say Columbia, you know. But yes. In screenwriting, UCLA was number one, not according to me itself suffering of me to say that, sure. But you know, the New York Times the LA Times The Times of London, and those are just the times is also the Wall Street Journal. They they identified the UCLA pro writing program as as outstanding. And I like to tell the writers there that we the faculty, whenever we would meet them in the fall, the new class and have orientation, I would always tell them that, you know, that the faculty sitting on one side of that, this table, and then the room was filled with the new students. And I would say we sitting here and we faculty at this, on this Saturday, but we are the second most important people in the room. The most important people in the room are the writers, we can't be better than our writers we intend on Oh, we rely on them. Not just predominantly, or largely, or to some extent, completely and totally 100% to make and sustain our reputation. So the first challenge in a screenwriting program is getting the writer if you you know, we can we can supply all sorts of things, but you got to bring your own talent.
Alex Ferrari 9:01 And that's one thing that I always I always tell people is like talent is is great. But it's not enough. It's never enough. Because there's a lot I've known a lot I'm sure you've met a lot of talented writers out there. I've known a lot of talented people, but talent without hustle talent without work ethic. It's useless.
Richard Walter 9:20 Just like I said about the student speed. Faculty being the second most important people in the room talent is the second most important quality that you have to have if you're going to if you're going to succeed as a writer refreshing you got to have this discipline. And what is discipline? I'm not sure what discipline is but here's the measure of discipline I'm you know, my 13th on a Casio this guy they they jumped in. They stole this guy's half million dollar watching from a restaurant in the Beverly Hills. I don't think anybody's my Amazon delivered by Amazon for 13 bucks. Yeah, but the point is, it's how much time will you give to this How much time would you get to this script? How much time will you give to this career? People don't quit. You know, people don't fail in Hollywood, they sort of just just drift away. It's a question of staying in the game, I recommend everybody that you'd be as lucky as you can. And that seems you're laughing and it is kind of a joke, but it's only a kind of a joke, because the truth is, you can affect your luck. And how can you do that by staying at the table? You know, if you're around the table at poker, everybody gets the same cards over the night. Come on. It's how you play those cards, how attentive you are, how disciplined you are, to your strategies and wielding them and stuff like that. So it's really about putting in the time and I will tell you, I see more writers defeat themselves by hiring, you know, john wooden, very, maybe probably the most famous name associated with UCLA. used to say, be quick, but don't hurry.
Alex Ferrari 11:00 Yeah, that's a great quote. Oh, my be quick, but don't hurry. It's apt. It's absolutely true. And I mean, I've been, you know, I got to LA around 12 years ago, and I already had, you know, some experience and
Richard Walter 11:11 where did you come from
Alex Ferrari 11:12 Miami, Miami, so it was a smaller market. But I'd already made my bones I had been directing and, and doing post production, everything. So when I showed up, I showed up with a wealth of experience already. But the first year here, I learned more than the past five there, because of the caliber of people I was working with here. And I've been here now over 12 years. And it is it is something that you do like being here, you just get opportunities that you just wouldn't get elsewhere. Not in before and we can I don't want to get too deep into the weeds on this. But before you had to be here all the time. Like there was no other options. Really, if you weren't New York, you could be in New York, maybe but not really la was the place to be. Yeah, but But now, LA is you don't have to be here, you could maybe go Atlanta, you maybe could go to other areas of the of the US and also of the world. But LA is always going to be LA in one way, shape, or form. But you don't have to do it as much as it used to.
Richard Walter 12:11 You know, Los Angeles is the world's most creative community and all platforms and all formats and all media. I came to California, I'm a New Yorker, I'm a Queen's boy. I was living in upstate New York. And I was going to continue, I've gotten my master's, the summer of 66. And I had about six weeks to kill before going back to get my PhD. back east, and I'd never been west of Cleveland. So a little along with a buddy of mine, I got into my VW Beetle. And in three days we got to the coast. And I was planning to be here about three weeks but I I fell into film school at USC and I never, I never really looked back three years later, that was August of 69. Three years later, my wife and I, and all this I'm sorry, that was 66. Three years later, August of 69. My wife and I went on holiday we just motored we wanted to go up to the Redwood National Park. We were still relatively new to California and really dazzled by this dazzling state. And we went on Indeed, we went as far as the quad dunes that the Oregon California border. The first night we got to San Francisco and stayed overnight with a friend and from my friend's house I call this was a Saturday night. I called water merge who was a classmate of mine at the UFC and a huge, famous and winning sound man and the editor amateur. He's a famous editor with a very famous book on editing blink of an eye. He's also this is a little less known to the film people but he's also an amateur astrophysicist. And amateur in that context is not a pejorative, it means he's he's not formally trained, but he's known all around the world for theories that he has regarding orbits of, you know, planets around suns, for example. And I mean, this guy is just a giant. He lived at that time on I say, a houseboat with his wife just off the the shoreline at Sausalito in the Bay Area. Just the other side of the Golden Gate Bridge. And the previous time that we'd been up to San Francisco we had a lot of friends there and we used to go up there a lot we'd had a big party on Walters boat. So I called him up that night. I said anything any action going on? He said nothing tonight on the boat but tomorrow's a few of us are getting together for brunch at a place called the Trident and eatery along the water in Sausalito. So we we invited us and we we joined them there so there was nine people my wife and I the other seven included an Oscar is a woman who would would win an Oscar for editing. Her name was Marcia Griffin along with a writer, he was not there but Richard Chu. And she won the Oscar for editing Star Wars. Scorsese's Alice Doesn't Live Here, I believe it was. She was also her husband is also there, George Lucas.
Alex Ferrari 15:23 Right. It was Yeah, she also helps with Star Wars.
Richard Walter 15:25 Right sitting next to him. Caleb Deschanel, very famous cinematographer, but probably better known now for his very successful daughters who are actors. With with Caleb is the guy whose name is a little less known, less well known, but a wonderful fellow in a very successful producer David Lester. He produced most of Ron Shelton's movies, Bull doormen and so on. did a lot of line work wonderful guy. So there's Marcia Griffin, George Lucas, Kevin a Chanel. And David listed also Walter merchant, his wife, Aggie, also, john malleus. He's known as three years.
Alex Ferrari 16:11 what's what's it what's what's witness, Mr. Spielberg? Steve wasn't there. Steve Spielberg was
Richard Walter 16:16 six months later, I get a call from Jerry Lewis. I believe it or not, when I went to sc Jerry Lewis came on to teach a directing course. And I ended up being his teaching assistant. He called me six months after that meeting at the trade end, in Sausalito. The phone rings and it's Jerry Lewis, I still can't believe that ringing phone and it's Jerry Lewis calling me. And he said to me, he was he shooting a movie at Warner Brothers. And in December in January, this was actually about like, the October November was a few months after the Sausalito dinner and a few a couple of months before he shot the movie. And it was looking for dialogue director, somebody to work with the actors, run them through the lines and this and that he works with certain actors who are amateurs and he needs and he wondered if I could refer him to somebody if I knew anybody might be good for that. So of course, I said to mobile, what I mean, and and he said to me, of course, that's that's what I hoped you would, you would say. So suddenly, there I am, you know, heartland really brand new, not yet full out, even out of film school completely. And I'm the dialogue director on a major animators on a movie, you're talking about the things that happen to you when you're in LA. And when you actually mix with mixed with people I used to tell people, it's actually an advantage to be from out of town. And I even know writers who would mask their addresses. I know one writer who had who made it appear as if he was in living in Tennessee. He thought it was sexier and niftier to be somebody other than yet another writer from the San Fernando Valley, you know. And the truth is, unless you were actually working in TV, on a staff situation, you did not need to be, you did not need to be in town. Again, if you're in television, either on staff or even a freelancer in those days, you need to be available to pitch. And you could I knew a guy in love. Eric tarloff, who lived up in Berkeley and would come down you know, I mean, I used to, I lived in Queens, and I used to take the, what we call the BMT, the subway into Manhattan to go to high school, Stuyvesant High School in Manhattan. And nobody ever gave me a glass of tomato juice on the train, you know, like, on the plane. So it really didn't matter where where you are. And to no small extent today it doesn't either, except that the big thing in television now is really in the business is staffing Did you get staffed on a show, and stamps do meet regularly daily around the table and so on. So you do need to be in town? Yes, there are some productions like that going on in Atlanta and other Vancouver things. However, it's still pretty much centered here,
Alex Ferrari 19:12 right? And I always tell people that, you know, when you're starting out, if you can afford to get out here, it's probably best because you got to do some time out here. make those connections, make those relationships, establish yourself. And then then if you want to leave, but almost everybody as far as screenwriters and filmmakers, almost all of them except for maybe some of the famous New York guys like Spike Lee and, and Marty and I think even Oliver Stone was out here as well. But some of the day they are everyone spends time out here building those relationships, taking those meetings until they established themselves, but is definitely something that young riders should take a look at.
Richard Walter 19:50 Yeah, I mean, I expected to be here for three weeks and here it is. I'm gonna give it the salary so I'm gonna give it another 54 years and it's still hasn't worked out for me back then. The truth is, I grew up in New York, everybody hated New York, it was a very much, much criticized place. And New Yorkers never defend New York, you know, to live there, that's your problem.
Alex Ferrari 20:18 I was reading. I was raised in New York.
Richard Walter 20:20 Yeah. Somebody, you know, tells a story to a Londoner that maybe they're there. Something happened to them that was was untoward. And I say, Oh, so sorry about that. That's most unusual, you know. Sorry. Yeah. But if you if, if it were in New York, and they say, yeah, that's not you know, what they've done on my monitor, they threw her on the train and nobody's trying to convince you. Nobody's trying to recruit you to move there. I stayed in LA because it's the greatest place on the planet. I'm right now. I'm looking at the snow capped mountains across the valley. Culturally, artistically, creatively, there's not a more more fertile ground for that anywhere on the on the on the planet. It's a hugely diverse communities are shifting I grew up in and, and the only thing I don't like about LA is the relentless good weather. It's not writing weather. You know, this is why the Irish, right so well, I believe, we never we never every once in a while we were at UCLA, we would admit an Irish writer, somebody applied from Ireland. I worked with an Irish writer who wasn't the genius. And I'm sure it's because of the rain, you know,
Alex Ferrari 21:40 there it is. There it is. Now, so speaking of, you know, young writers, you obviously worked with a ton of young writers in your program. What are some of the biggest mistakes you constantly saw young writers or writers who are just starting out make
Richard Walter 21:54 young writers make the same kinds of mistakes that old writers make? I want to say something about young writers. So we are the the program that I taught was a for the most part was a master Fine Arts, a graduate program. So most of the writers were a little older, and then we actually tilted I had a pro age bias. I like to bring in older rather than younger writers, people who had experiences that are worth writing about other than the funniest prank they ever played on the Resident Advisor in the dormitory. So yes, it's true. I lectured to undergraduates. But it was not a typical class. It was generally people were more among undergraduates at a at a college. But people were generally more mature. The single biggest mistake writers make including this writer who's talking to you is we write too much, too much language, too much description, too much dialogue, too many pages, the scripts are too long. I like to you know, I'm I'm a retired college professor, I was over 40 years doing that, and I kind of have an occupational hazard. If we could call it that. I can't help myself. I sometimes just stop people in the street and give them a pop quiz. So here's one for you and anybody who's watching us, don't worry, it's just mobile choice three answers. How long should a movie be? Should it be a too long be too short? See just exactly the right length? The answer is be too short. If you're on a vacation, and you're ready to go home, then you were there too long. You should be reluctant to go you know, last summer there was a racial reckoning and a lot of protests all across the nation. A lot of people were carrying signs that said enough. exclamation point. Did they mean enough? No, they meant too much. You know, somebody says Enough already. They mean they don't mean enough they mean they mean too much. Right? So if you're if your film is ready to end then it's it's too late. I'll also say this and I think this is sort of original with me the the three act structure it's it's our song never called structure just got the beginnings middles in and and and that applies not just to the beginning, you know, is the beginning is the part before which you need nothing. And the end is the point after which you need nothing. When I tell that to audiences, and the classes I usually take a pause then because I wait for somebody to say what yours is that you just told me that the big there's nothing before the beginning of something after the end. I have a dog that knows that. And yet I see movies, right? That stopped before the big let's go on after the after the end. I am a spike lee fan. My favorite movie my spike is actually x i think it's it's the the Malcolm biopic. Then A Washington I think underappreciated what a terrific actor he is a lesser actor would have been chewing the scenery but that's, that's not the way Malcolm was. But any event, one of the spikes really, really good early films. I think the one that made his reputation is do the right thing and do the right thing at the end it ends you know, Danny Aiello is the pizza owner and spike explain mukhi who works in the shop, it's one of the few establishments in the neighborhood that had offered a job to anybody and the brothers industry to that they're resurrecting that, you know, they're they're, they're, they're in an interaction, they're, they're writing they're losing they're they're burning. And spike mukhi is trying to figure out what to do and he finally decides to join the should he protect the pizza are, you know, guy, his boss and independent entrepreneur trying to scratch out a living there? He doesn't seem like a really evil die. Why burn down his story, you know, on the other hand, it shouldn't be with the brothers and and joining the movement and so on. And he did and he chooses the latter. Spike says he wasn't endorsing violence, he was just asking the audience to, you know, decide for itself what's the right thing, I'll give him that. But it's clearly the end of the movie and it doesn't need it fades out, you know, he's he throws the the trashcan, trashcan through the plate glass window, and it fades out. Now you can expect the credits to rolling and now it fades back in and this spike. And then a yellow, the pizza owner, the store owner, side by side and and they're having a discussion. And there's a croal from from Dr. King about non violence. And then there's a crawl from Malcolm about violence. And I'm waiting for a crane to lower Ted Koppel or
I don't know if that couple of names that they pick anymore. But he was a he was a like a news anchor who would moderate and facilitate discussions. And so I mean, this is going on and on after the after the point before which you you need nothing. I'm arguing that not only to home movies have places before which you need nothing. And places after which you need nothing but so also the new parts of movies for example scenes, even parts of parts like lines of dialogue. I remember, I was talking before about the Meili, as I mentioned my old classmates to classmates, George Lucas, chameleons, john, as he became very successful. Went to direct I think it was his first movie. And it was the first movie that he's gonna direct he had written some very successful movies. We wanted to direct and so he was directing Dylan ger and kill injure starring Warren Oates. rest his soul Warren gone now decades, not only a very good actor, but a really, really nice man. miss him every day. So john put together the rough cut, I wasn't even a rough cut was like an assemblage of the movie. And he invited a bunch of us in former classmates, half a dozen, maybe eight people, including George. And I remember to, you know, to look at the film and to comment on him on it and give them advice. And remember George saying, john, you don't need to show the cop pulling up. Turning off the you know, hand turning off the ignition, getting out walking across noggin, you can jump around, you can move around in ways that that maybe in the earlier days, you could not audiences, the more savvy and now they're they tip HIPAA to the to the literate, they're more literate, or cinema literate, or they hate to use the word cinema. Let's call it movie literate. And likewise, that applies even to lines of dialogue, you know, any line of dialogue that starts with, with, you know, or I've been thinking or I think, or it seems to me, that's before the beginning. Or at the end of a line, your main character might say, Monica, and I really mean that, you know, that people say to me, and I'm always saying no, no, that's after the and that is after the point after which you need nothing, by the way that test for that is very easy. You just imagine it's not fair does it? If it still makes sense, you didn't need it? If it all goes to hell than then you need it. And it's just so easy to know what to do. It's hard to do it. Because of the reason we said earlier takes a bunch of a bunch of time to do that. So once again, people will say to me, when I'm telling I'm telling you know, you got an urge you got vocalized pauses, um, or, I mean, or I'm thinking all of those kinds of things. I'm like that I you know, the way people people talk to this played on the language the I'm like, yeah, so I'm like, and he's like, and I'm like, and he's like, so somebody will say, I'll tell people No, no, no, no. You know, get rid of And you can guess what they said to me, they say, but that's the way people really talk.
Alex Ferrari 30:07 We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.
Richard Walter 30:16 Well, is it the way people really talk? Absolutely. Yes, it is. So what's wrong with that? Well, two things are wrong with that. The second thing first. The second thing that's wrong with that is you don't need to go to the movies to hear the way people really talk. You just go out
Alex Ferrari 30:31 on the street. No One No One talks like Tarantino's characters. No, but
Richard Walter 30:36 I mentioned Jerry Lewis, you know, if you say, Hey, hi, how you doing? You know, Mazel. Oh, pretty good. You know, I am now taking walks. We've been in lockdown for a year, I can't tell you enough for a retired professor. The question is, How does he know the difference? You know, the, you know, for a writer, it's, it's a terrific excuse not to go swimming. I'm a swimmer, not to go to physical therapy. I go to physical therapy. I have arthritic issues. I'm just kind of kind of liking that actually actually liking the isolation and, and, and so on. But I mentioned Jerry Lewis, if you asked, when you when I take walks around the neighborhood, and I see. Hey, hi, how are you? Nice to see you night. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Hi, you know, kind of masked and distance and everybody kind of greeting each other. If you say that to Jerry Lewis, of you, Hey, how you doing? He said, Well, I have a rash on my crotch. The truth is that you do not need to go to the field of the pay that for that second of all, but first of all, the way people really speak violates the single most fundamental rule in all of it's the only rule you ever really had at UCLA. You can do anything you want. As long as you don't violate this rule. And I can say the rule in three words, right? Here it is, don't be boring. The way people release because boring. Hey, how you doing? Oh, not good. Boy, you believe that it's really clouded and thank God it has been so dry here. Now we've had a number of drop lab like yakka kid to teach every single line of dialogue that any character speaks in Alliant has to in a screenplay has to move the story forward. It's just as simple as that, again, very easy to understand. The question is why does it really do this? And and the answer is they just will not give it the time. Somebody said to me the other day, I gave the agent. I gave it to the agent two weeks ago in under two weeks to blink of an eye. Now. Somebody said to me the other day, this is my fourth three, right? Well, one of the most you mentioned the gym owners you mentioned, Paul Castro, I certainly rejoice in in being able to brag about about having worked with a lot of really, really famous writers. Now, of course, I'm not bragging, I'm bringing them out, bragging about them. One of the most successful writers I've ever worked with is David cap. Oh, yeah. He EP EP, he's so famous now that people pronounce his name correctly. It's not cope. It's a cap. And he says this, he's written several, at least three pictures to Stephen, maybe four. He wrote at least two of the Jurassic Park's he wrote War of the Worlds. And and I mean, it's just the gigantically successful writers also very good director. And David says, The secret of his success is 17, the number 17. And what does it mean by that? I mean, that's the number of drafts that he goes through. before he's really, really, really ready. So once again, you want to succeed is right, he got understand two things, essentially. One is that and a lot of writers don't get this a screenplay is only two kinds of information. It's an elaborate list of only two, only two kinds of information. Anybody want to know what they are, they aren't what you see and what you hear. From the point of view of the right it's what the actors do and what they say. From the point of view the right I mean, there's a lot of sound in a movie, but from the point of view, the writer it's almost all dialogue. I can't tell you how many times I see descriptions with somebody remember something describes how they feel what their mood is interior internal mental processes and what what does that look like? Your hair we realize is that the gun is that when I'm sitting in a movie theater, looking at a screen, the job of the writer is to replicate for the reader of that script, the experience that will be had by somebody sitting in a movie theater watching it unfold on the screen. So You can tell me the reader that Joe realizes that the gun is in the nightstand. You know, at the motel when I'm trying to imagine somebody sitting in a movie theater looking at the screen, how are they getting that? So that's the first thing you got to recognize. It's just sight and sound. By the way, in final draft, the Rolls Royce, of
screenwriting software is creating a Richard Walter template, you know, you can get different templates if you want to write for the script for the Simpsons, you can go to the template list and menu and hit Simpsons it'll come up or like, the Simpsons office likes it, you know, what they want from me. And among other things it's going to have is in descriptions, wide margin, if, if there's a word like realizes, thinks, remembers, feels any internal mental process like that, it's going to be highlighted, do you really want to? Do you really want to sell That's amazing.
So the trick is, again, first of all, only sight, the sound, what we see and what we hear and don't say we see. Because if it's in the wide margin, we see, right? That means we see you don't have to say what what you don't have to say, you don't have to repeat yourself. You don't have to repeat yourself. You don't have to repeat. If I say that three times, and yet I see I see repetition and the script to go on. But much worse than that. So that's the first thing sight, sound. And next thing I've already said palpably, measurably whatever half happens has to move that story forward. And that's it. If you'll do that, it doesn't matter what the scripts about doesn't feel close genre. Doesn't matter what happens. It Matter of fact, you can even have nothing happen. And if it's integrated, that is safe, it moves the story forward. Even nothing happening. Will will attract an audience and work effectively in a screenplay. Now how can that possibly be that nothing I will give you an example from from a writer that I worked with years ago, he's only won two Oscars for Best Screenplay. I'm talking about Alexander Payne. My favorite picture by Alexander is about Schmidt. I think it's jack Nicholson's best work in his entire career. And the very opening of that picture, it's Omaha office building, we're in an insurance office. And there's jack nicholson playing Schmidt and he's sitting at the desk. And he sitting Stockstill is not doing a thing. And he's all alone in there. And he's saying nothing to anybody on the phone or in person, there's nobody there. He's just sitting there. And we have a little bit of time, in which apparently nothing's happening. I mean, if nothing happens for three, four or five seconds, that's a long time. And it's longer than that. But during that time, we'll get in a look at the office. And we see that all the graphics are off the walls, we see that all the shelves are clear, we see that the desk is absolutely bare, we seen in the corner of the office, stacked up very neatly cartons, packages, boxes, that obviously contain all the stuff that used to be on the shelves and used to be on the walls and so on. Clearly, just looking at this, we see that this man is retiring. There's no motion in the same except for one thing, there's a round clock with a sweep, second hand, and that second hand is ticking off two seconds, and is about 25 seconds to go until it hits five o'clock. It's just 25 seconds before five o'clock, and he just sits there. And then when it hits five o'clock, he just gets up and walks out of the room. And that's the whole scene. So it's kind of a scene in which nothing happens. But Wow, how much information do you get in that scene with supposedly nothing happened? Right? You realize this is a sales. This is a an insurance guy. This guy is his last day he's retiring. Maybe he's a stickler for detail. Nobody would have cared if he left three minutes earlier. Matter of fact, that's his last day. He probably could have left before lunch, you know. So did he stay there because he's methodical and punctual. Or did he stay there because he he's been waiting to retire but now he's actually afraid he and I don't know too many people who, whose life's dream is to become an insurance salesman. So maybe this wasn't his dream. And he's always been hoping once he's done with this, he could get creative and write a novel or a poem or become a painter or something creative. His excuse for not doing that was he had the job now suddenly, he he's about to not have the job and really have to take responsibility for not being creative and being creative as he may be. It's a really great character issue. And that, that we're not sure about that that leaves the audience wonder about that his testimony not to the weakness, but the strength of the writer, Alexander Payne and that scene. So you can see how with absolutely nothing happening. The story is driven forward. And well, you can do whatever you like, all the rules are off if it's integrated if it moves the story.
Alex Ferrari 40:27 Now, let me ask you, when I always love asking this question is, would you recommend starting with character, or with plot? Because I know a lot of there's there's two different camps here. So we'd love to hear your point of view.
Richard Walter 40:38 People ask me all the time, what do you think is more important character replied? And I answered them with a question. What do you think is more what's more important to you that people say, Richie, what's more important your character or plot? And I'll say, what's more important to you, your heart or your lungs? You can't talk about character and plot as if they're separate things. The richest character in all of English language, arguably, world dramatic literature is Hamlet, arguably, I mean, you know, certainly he's way up that they were volun libraries full of volumes, analyzing junk, us his character, and, you know, in detail, just that one aspect of the play his character, Is he mad? Or does he feign Madison, this and that the other thing? Do you remember? Have you read the play? Do you remember the description the playwrights description of of Hamlet? It's three words Prince of Denmark, there's nothing about melancholy. So who is this guy? And the answer is he is what he does. And what he says just like you, just like me, like everybody who's who's who's listening. It is. There's, there's a wonderful book, very underappreciated very little known by a writer named Millard, Calvin. called claps and characters. And by the way, it's plots. First, Aristotle also puts plot story in front of character, I, like, I think it's a mistake to to put them in sequence at all, I think they all operate together. And, and, you know, when, for example, when, when I was going to say about Miller's book, this is one of the wisest things I've ever heard. It really tells you all about dramatic writing, but also about life. And here it is, again, not original with me. It is action that defines character. and not the other way around gonna say it again. Action defines character, not the other way around. What does this mean? In practical terms for a writer, it means you should not figure out in advance who your characters are, and what kinds of people they are, you know, I attend lots of over my career, I've been to gazillions of writing festivals, and every once in a while they have biography workshops, character biography, workshops, where you can just outside of the context of a story, you can invent characters, and list them and so on that presumably you will use someday in a in a screenplay. Now. I tried to be polite, and courteous, just generally in my life. And when I hear about stuff at conferences like that, I'll say to people Oh, that is SAS, SAS. Sounds interesting. But in fact, I think it's a bunch of bullshit. I don't think you can invite you can invent characters are meaningless invite characters outside of the context of story and story being what they do and what they say. In other words, what I'm saying is, don't figure out your characters. Watch what they do, they will tell you who they are. Just like you know who you are, based on what you've done what you've said,
Alex Ferrari 43:55 right? So So let's say perfect example, if someone's writing a description of me, I'm the hero of this play, or this this screenplay that we're writing, right? And it goes, Alex, where's a hustle hat? His mid 40s ruggedly handsome, obviously
Richard Walter 44:17 much better looking than this Congress shows, but not nearly as good looking. As you
Alex Ferrari 44:21 say. I appreciate that, sir. Nope. So basically, I've seen and I've done this myself in my writing is I will see this long description of like, and he has this and has done and has this and you could and I think I personally feel and I love to hear you think i think that's a waste. I think what what you just said about Hamlet was so perfect. Because if Hamlet in the next IV goes Hamlet, Prince of Denmark, if in the next moment, he kicks a dog out of you know who he is in a minute, without saying he is going to he hates animals. He's a mean got no, no, he kicks the dog. And that
Richard Walter 44:57 does that. Right? Yeah. Exactly right the I've you heard me say, and I've said it throughout my career. The big I just said at moments ago, the biggest mistake we make, as writers, including this writer is talking to you is we write too much. The most common place I see that is in character descriptions, I've read character descriptions of what kind of a candy bar she would eat. If she ate a candy bar. Though she doesn't need a candy bar in this in this film, what kind of a tree she would base, a willow. There are only two bits of information that you want to establish only to when you present the character. And remember, we're trying to replicate in that screenplays experience that will be had by the viewer in the audience, okay of the film unfolding, not somebody reading the script, but watching the film on the screen. The only thing is we want to know about the character in the description is our gender, and age. That's it. And by the way, that's a good reason to use gender specific names, not to use androgynous names. Chris Robin, so on again, unless it's integrated, integration, moving the story forward will tell you what you need and what you don't need. For example, there is a famous character, Pat.
Alex Ferrari 46:26 Yeah. And Ron is
Richard Walter 46:29 created by Julia Sweeney on SNL. And she does a bit called it's patently made it into a feature movie, it's packs, well imagine that they said it's Patrick. Or it's Patricia would ruin the whole thing. We needed the Dr. Yunus name there, because the whole point is progeny. Now, imagine, you know, I have a friend who is a woman but used to be a man. She is a trans. And I mean that the whole hog she she has had what they call gender reassignment surgery. Now, if you met her, you wouldn't know that. I know that because she's an old friend of mine. But if you were presenting her new movie, you should give her a feat she's going to present as a woman in the movie, you got to give her a woman's name a name, that's clearly a feminine name. If if it'll be clear enough on the screen, oh, that's a pretty young woman, which is what you would think of this woman if you met her in the street, or you saw her on the screen. But on the in real life, and on the screen, you can see all that to a woman but from the name on the page. You can't tell them unless it's a gender specific name.
Alex Ferrari 47:44 So specifically in that, in that case, I think a mistake a writer would make is like, this trans woman, Pat, is that would be the description, which was an absolute mistake. Because
Richard Walter 47:56 absolutely, it would be like telling the punchline to a joke.
Alex Ferrari 47:59 Right? Exactly. So as you're as you're reading the screenplay, as you're reading the screenplay, if you're if you're watching it on the movie, if you just use that analogy, which is so perfect. If you're looking on the movie, unless someone says something or a specific if that's presented as a woman that characters presented as a woman, it's a woman. And as long as it looks like it's fine. If you look, there's a reveal later. I mean, the crying game obviously is that great reveal, but the whole movies you know, that's kind of part of the game. But what but
Richard Walter 48:24 but there's there's an actual movie, it's good example you might have seen, it was pretty well known it must be 25 years ago, the crying game. Yeah, that's what I just said, in which this one character appears to be female. A very important very central character in the narrative. But midway through the movie suddenly, and it's a major turning point in movie it is revealed that this is actually biologically a man. Imagine if at the beginning when you introduce her as a woman, you put power and suddenly By the way, she's really a man, we'll find out later she's a man. Well, that's like opening upon a joke by telling the punch line, right? Telling telling the joke. Once again, you want to reveal the you want to reveal information in the same way the audience is going to get it. And that is limiting. It limits you to the to the ever present numbing, present tense, you can't say what happened, what will happen and you can say that in a novel, and you can't say what anybody's thinking or how they're feeling. But you as you can in a novel you've got to stick to just sight and and sound and you have to reveal the information to the reader at the same time as it will be revealed to the viewer sitting in the audience watching the movie on the screen.
Alex Ferrari 49:40 So when and that's so that's so great. And I've never really thought about it the way you've presented it which is like it's it's literally the screenplay is the representation of what you're going to see on the screen, which is on the face level. Everyone knows that. But yet like you said, not everyone does that. So when you the other problem I see a lot of times and I I was when I first sent my screenplays to get coverage years ago, I would get this note back on the nose dialogue, oh my god knows unlost dialogue and just kind of like I think we've been talking about kind of like on the nose descriptions, which is also, you know, rampid in it.
Richard Walter 50:17 The trick is to get the mind working, you know, not just video games and computer games are interactive, all art is interactive. And the idea is to engage like gears, engage, you move this and it moves that. And the way you do that is not by putting out a lot of information, but by withholding a lot of information. The, you know, all all I remember, years and years ago, well, it was it was around 1999 with the new millennium coming upon us. The I was asked, it must have been a slow news day, because because the the press came to me and they asked me, you know, I have a fancy title and I'm good with sound bites. So I would on slow days, news days, I would get asked things. And I was asked what is the reporter called me up and said, the new millennium is coming. The decade is almost over what was the best picture of the nine days. So for a moment, I thought to myself, gee, let's see, what did I like? I'm not a buff. I don't see all the movies. But what did I seen in the 90s? That was really, really good. And I couldn't think what was movie and was this tonight? And suddenly it dawned on me I had actually one of the single greatest insights that I've ever had in my life, in the midst of struggling to figure out what movies when the 90s what was best movie in the 90s it occurred to me that in this entire universe. And they tell us that there are infinite number of parallel such universes. And it is so gigantic. In fact, since we started talking, it's already like 3 trillion times larger than you know, than a 20 minutes ago. There is not one thing in all of that vastness. There is not one item that is less important than what I think is the biggest movie in the nine days. That doesn't matter what I say I should stuff work into i don't i guess blurted out, terminated to. Now why did I just terminated due for a couple of reasons. For one thing there, I'm a college professor. I'm a film professor. I'm a full tenured professor, you know, they expect me to say there's some garion tone poem. They don't expect me to choose a big Hollywood franchise the second chapter. So I'm trying to be a little outrageous. And so should you if you're writing a screenplay, I'm trying to be provocative. I'm trying to be interesting. If anybody said to me, oh, you're just trying to get attention, I would say, found me out, you know, I mean, that's what every screenwriters is, is trying to do. But there's another reason that I chose terminated to. It's a really, really good movie.
Alex Ferrari 53:06 It's a good script to I mean, camera
Richard Walter 53:07 cameras. Well, the cameras movie if it's not a good script, it can be a good script than a bad movie. Yeah, but it can't be a good script, a bad script and a good movie. More about that maybe a little later on. But if you remember, Terminator appears, you know, he comes out of the sky. And if you've seen the movie, he just lands up naked on the lawn, in this, you know, in the boonies out somewhere in a very rural area along a highway where there's a biker bar a lot of choppers parked out in front and he wanders in stark naked looking around and they're all looking at him I'm looking at it's crowded, it's shoulder to shoulder with with with tough guys. The kinds of people that go to biker bars. And he's kind of gauge and you can see from his point of view, is he measuring people and now he sees one guy who fits him who's exactly his size and Arnold's a big guy. So this is a big guy, and it's a guy shooting pool. And he steps up to that guy. And he says to the, he says to the guy, give me your clothes and your motorcycle. That's a pretty good Arnold.
Alex Ferrari 54:18 Those are fantastic. I was gonna say.
Richard Walter 54:22 What does the guy say? Now? I'll tell you what he doesn't say. He doesn't say Are you out of your mind? You naked Australia's you stumble in here and you think I'm gonna give you mine? He doesn't say any of that. Does anybody remember when he says I'll tell you what he says. I remember the line quite well. Again, Arnold. As terminate says to him, give me your clothes and your motorcycle. And what does he say? He says, Yes, I got to say please write. Much, much better. And by the way, on overreaching, he like gets ready to beat him with his full kill. He grabs his collar this lifts him up in the air. The way I could lift you know, this hat, you know, he weighs about that much to Arnold. And by the way, he has What does not happen after that. What does not happen after is that it's a fight, he grabs his clothes, he puts the clothes on, he goes out and takes him out now, he grabs me lifted off the ground. Suddenly, the very next frame, he's on the highway dressed in that guy's outfit, and he's shooting down the highway on the bike
Alex Ferrari 55:26 after after a slight fight scene after a slight fight scene. Yeah,
Richard Walter 55:29 really any fight at all? Yeah. And a lot of people will let you know, worse writers and worse directors, Jim Cameron would would have had a big fight, fight there. Something like you're out of your mind that's on the nose. You're not going to give you my clothes. But you forgot to say please is subtext. It really means something else doesn't that old jokes work that way. Here's a quick joke. Maybe you heard it. The doctor says to space, I've got bad news and worse news patient says, well give me the worst news first. He says, well, it's cancer. It's metastatic. It's everywhere. It's inoperable. You don't even have six weeks to live. That's it? Oh my god. What's the news? Not? Not quite as bad as that? Is we got Alzheimer's disease. So the guy says, Oh, my God. Well, at least I don't have cancer. why people are just getting it.
Alex Ferrari 56:28 It took me a second. It took me a second to get them. Yeah,
Richard Walter 56:30 I got to the point. Is that it?
There's nothing funny about cancer. I know people struggling with that. Why do we laugh at that? Because we're monsters and eat? No, it's because we're human beings. And when we feel stress from text, something that we heard, and then we figured out what it is Oh, I know. Now I know what it means. There's a release of that stress. And it comes out as as as laughter so so once again. It's all jokes work that way. Every single Joe here is is another Alzheimer's joke. A couple, elder elderly couple, they walk down the street, they encounter this other couple. Hey, we haven't seen you guys in a minute. What are you doing over here on this site? And then well, we just had lunch at this restaurant, we read a review. It's a new restaurant. And we read a review a time to go we wanted to try it out. And we did and it's really very good. It's Oh, well, we were gonna have lunch. Maybe we'll go there. What's the What's the name? What's the restaurant? What were the guy says, Oh, it's called the? This happens to me all the time. We were just there and I can't eat. He turns to his wife. He says, He says do you he says help me with this. He existed the guy who's asking them about the restaurant he says help me with this flower? Red thorns guys is Rose. He's it? Oh, yes, of course. Rose. That's what it is. And he turns to his wife. And he says rose. Do you remember that mister. Okay, once again, why the left, because you thought this and so. So that's what we want to go for. We don't want to be on the nose, we want to say what's underneath. And the best thing if possible, the most articulate thing that you can say is is nothing at all, I'm going to give you one more joke also about health, the two to 2x two examples of the difference between being old and being young. And maybe a large part of the group that watches this is too young to get this but difference between being old and being young. The first difference is when you're young, you go to the doctor, sometimes when you're old, you go to the doctors. I mean, I I am old enough now and I go to if I'm going to send an email to one of my doctors and on the on the email site, you know, the the health site that I belong to at UCLA. If I hit the little down arrow, if I say want to send the message to my doctor, then it'll say witch doctor and you hit the down arrow. The menu falls down with all the boxes that I have. I mean, it goes down through the bottom of the computer out onto the onto the desk. So there's the first one hitting them. But here's the second one again. difference between being young and being old. The first one I already told you here's the second one when you're oryza. When you're young, you go to the doctor when you're old, you go to the doctors, okay, also when you're young, you get sick and then you get better. See now people are waiting and they're waiting. See by not saying it. You've called them you've drawn
Alex Ferrari 59:47 interesting.
Richard Walter 59:49 In business and in art, if you chase after people, they run away from you. Yeah. If you want them to come to you, you got to withdraw. I bet you've seen the Devil Wears The first image that magician that they call Meryl Streep, she won her third Oscar, best, best performance for that role. She plays a very powerful woman, really, really powerful, powerful woman. She never raises her voice.
Alex Ferrari 1:00:22 Never, never.
Richard Walter 1:00:24 She never talks louder than this that makes people lean forward. Good, engage, listen closely. If she's, that might seem powerful, but it's not nearly as powerful as going the opposite direction. So that's what I'm always telling writers, writers to do. Less description, less noise, the more you put out there, the less opportunity there is for the audience to engage.
Alex Ferrari 1:00:51 We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. Now, what suggestions do you have for creating conflict within a scene?
Richard Walter 1:01:07 Well, I mean, it's funny, my my old teacher, the legendary long deceased or when are blacker, he want George he took millions he put a lot of people in a seat. He used to say, Where do you need conflict in a screenplay, one that every to answer in unison? And he also would say, before you answer, I want to tell you that it's a one word answer. Where do you need conflict? And scribbling? The answer was, everywhere. Everywhere. Everything could be a conflict. It doesn't have to be a, you know, world war three and everybody battling each other, although that's okay, too. But people should not be getting along. There should be dissonance and discomfort. And so I'm hearing about now people there's, there's, oh, there's a new institute that wants to make it possible wants to support film, filmmakers who want to make films that have positive social impact, and uplift. Well, if you want, if you want to have social positive social impact, and uplift, you are doomed. You can't you might have social impact, positive social impact, but not by trying to have it one of those violent series that I've ever seen. And it's also I think one of the greatest works of genius in all of Western civilization is breaking bad. I'm a big, huge fan of breaking. I don't I've never seen anything better than Breaking Bad. Have I ever seen anything as good as that? Yes, the sopranos, that godfather. But I've I've never seen anything including Shakespeare's plays in the great Greeks. I think it's one of the great Masterworks of dramatic literature Breaking Bad. Now, I am somebody that I don't want to get too political. But there has been a I think one of the greatest tragedy. One of the very greatest tragedy the last half century in America is the abandonment of support for public education. You know, when I came to UCLA, people don't know it's all paid for the the state but know that back then they paid for about 1/5 20% back then, and now they pay for about half it's about like 11 or 12 12%. Worse than that, though, is public school. K through 12. somebody my age, I went to public school in the 50s. The, you know, somebody, somebody like me. We had really, really good schools. And in fact, my wife and I were married 53 years, we 54 years and come come June. That's pretty typical. By the way, I have to say, for my generation, most of the people that I know, it's not all that unusual. I only mentioned it because we are college sweethearts. We went to the state. We went to a State University, we met in college, upstate New York, what is now called Binghamton University. Harper College is just the undergraduate wing of the Binghamton University. It's part of the state interest in New York campus. And it's virtually free when we went there. It was $400 a year. And and by the way, if you got a region scholarship, and both of us did, and most everybody that we knew did, it was pretty easy to get to read. And it was it was absolutely free. Wow, raking. What can that possibly have to do with Breaking Bad and by the way, it's nice in movie narratives to have something that doesn't seem to be connected to anything that suddenly gets connected. And I think in teaching, I tried to do that as well. So I've been talking about the abandoned in the public schools and talking about breaking bad. Well, undergirding the whole series of Breaking Bad is this question Why does in the United States of America in Albuquerque, New Mexico, does the high school chemistry teacher get 43 $1,000 a year and have to work at a carwash. And then when he gets a fatal diagnosis has to become a drug dealer, a drug manufacturer and drug dealer just to provide medical coverage for his for his for his, his family. So I think Gilligan and his writers, Vince Gilligan, I'm talking about the creator of Breaking Bad, is contributing very, very palpably, very measurably meaningfully, to a very important political issue. But he's not trying to rise. As soon as you try to do something, you will fail. I was thinking the other day about this, imagine you're standing at the edge of a big field, big grassy field acres and acres and you have a baseball. And you throw it from the edge of that field just as far as you possibly can.
You You're a younger, more fit guy, you probably throw a little further than I but I bet we could both throw it about a block, let's say, half the woodlands magine Atlanta bounces a few times. It's some fencing and it rolls and finally stops. Now you walk up to that. And before you pick it up with a big fat piece of yellow chalk, let's say you draw a circle around it right? And now you pick up the ball and what's there there's a circle indicating exactly where it landed. Right? Okay, now you go back to where you threw it previously. And throw it again and make it land exactly there. Exactly. There. You'll never do what you do 10 dozen times. It's, it's going to come close. Right? But it's not likely ever to get right to that spot. Why? Why not? You just did that without even trying you were able to do that. And now you can't do it at all? Well, that's the answer. You were trying. As long as you're trying you will never you'll never succeed at it. And too many writers trying too hard. They they have. They have not? Yeah, I was gonna say they lost the ability. But I don't think it's an ability that you have, that you lose. It's an ability that you have to acquire and have to find the ability to stay open to the surprises to be a little confused about what's happening in in, in your screenplay. Yeah, not to nail everything down. But to live with that dissonance and with that, without knowing
Alex Ferrari 1:07:22 it. So it's so funny, because I mean, after now 450 probably like between all my podcasts like 500 or 600 interviews, I've done it over the course of the last five, six years. I've talked to so many amazing people. I've noticed that, you know, you hear these mythical stories of like, let's say, you know, when Shane Black was selling a house was selling those scripts in the in the glory
Richard Walter 1:07:44 days de la UCLA, but keep going.
Alex Ferrari 1:07:46 Yes, exactly. So all these kind of, you know, mythical Tarantino, all these kind of guys, who are these mythical kind of screenwriters. When they weren't like When, when, when quitting wrote to romance, he didn't know it was going to be sold to Tony Scott, and then turned into the movie. And when he wrote Reservoir Dogs, he didn't know it was going to be what it was, he wasn't trying for that he was going to shoot a small independent film for 50 or 60. Grand, and get it done. It just so happened, and run my own career. In in my own thing, I've tried to chase that thing, like I want to this is gonna do this for me, and you start going and never, ever works out that way. Because there's because life doesn't work that way. And you have to be open to the, to the things like when I started this podcast, the screenwriting podcast specifically, I just just kind of threw it out there. And I wasn't expecting much from it. And then slowly, but surely have built up steam. And then all of a sudden, people like yourself, and all these other amazing guest started showing up. And I'm like, but I didn't plan on it. Like, you know, my goal is to get when I started, my very first step is to get Richard on the show. Like, no, it just kind of happened. And it kind of flows that way. And you have to be open to that. And when you're writing, I agree with you 110% if you're writing with an outcome and in in mind, you're more likely going to fail. Is that a fair statement?
Richard Walter 1:09:09 Yes, I will tell you the the I've had really three phases in my development as a writer relative to the story. And I do think story is what it's all about. Story encompasses everything else story, his character story, his mood setting, all of those things, you know, come come out of this, this thing that we that we call story. I am a trained actor. And I'm a very experienced public speaker. Not only have I lectured 1000s of times on Khan campus and off campus, but I also had 15 minutes of fame. It was really 15 years I was constantly on all of these talk shows. The O'Reilly Factor I was like the the unofficial house lib for Fox News. But I was also I must have done two dozen visits with chris matthews at MSNBC Sure, you know, commenting on on various kinds And I, the reason I mentioned that is I can say things very convincingly, even if I don't believe them. And I'm going to say something now very much along the lines of what you just said that I do not believe what I'm about to say is a hoax. It's a lie, I don't believe and I've just told you that. But people watching this, I'm gonna say until convincingly so persuasively, it makes such sense, they're going to believe that it's true and that I believe it even though I've just told you that I don't believe it. And here it is, if you want to succeed in a competitive enterprise, and there's nothing more competitive, I mean, what's more competitive than than screenwriting My God Jesus, you know, where where, where trafficking in our own imagination with selling our daydreams for money, welcome, be no better, better fun than that, you know, we get we get paid for, for what other people get scolded for, you know, which is, is daydreaming. If you're going to succeed in something like that, you have to focus. You can't be given over to distractions, you got to have a laser like focus towards that make great sense. But remember, I told you, it's bullshit. The fact of the matter is that your best bet is tumbling, stupidly and blindly along and bumping into things, from time to time making stuff available to things that you love, and you hang on to and you grab onto and you hold on onto that thing, things that surprise you or things that you didn't anticipate in your life narrative. Remember, I came out here I was going to go back that eventually I thought maybe I'll be a lawyer or something like that. I just let circumstances unfold. And what I've discovered again, is it with resin that's the life narrative in your story narrative. Likewise, it I used to think it was about there's a line of time you know, about an hour and 40 minutes most movies are too long. The narcissism of directors they just won't get off the stage. Look at me look at me. It's supposed to be invisible. It's supposed to everybody knows it's a movie is supposed to hide that fact from the non announcement, not proclaim it to them. Don't get me started now on what I call amateur chic. The new kind of directing with everything handheld and 360s directors calling attention to them selves rather than then then trying to hide the the goals will limit you they they will you know, man.
Again, the the story. I used to think there's the 100 minutes, and you have to put things in there then I thought the next phase was no, no, no, no, no the things that they are. It's about taking things away. I kind of think of I like to talk about Michelangelo, sculpting the famous statue of David that Stan, Florence, right. He says that there was this big block of marble that his workmen brought down from his favorite quarry in Carrara. And he looked at this big hunk of stone and he could see inside it, the David and all he did to create the David was to take away those parts that were in David, of course, knowing how to do that. How to and which parts to take away is the difference between rank amateur and genius, but it is a taking away process. Art is and story creation is and I have crossed paths with with you know I have a lot of experience myself as a writer that's taught me a lot. The Wall Street Journal calls me and I've memorized this now a writer have substantial professional experience throughout the media. There's no kind of literary laundry that I haven't taken in but my experience as a writer is leveraged by the 1000s of writers that I've worked with on campus and off campus as a screenplay analyst. And as a professor teaching this subject, and I've never met one writer, not one writer, I promise you there's not one writer watching this podcast, who has not had the experience of hearing a character say something apparently on her own, you know, as if he invented it by herself doing something that you never that the writer never expected. The story taking a twist or a turn that you didn't expect somebody else becoming the protagonist. The major mistake writers can make is to try to drag back to an earlier notion that they had rather than than allow those kinds of things to happen. You know, I like to tell a story about common Hagen's. He was a UCLA student before my time. Now DC stressed his cell and I think Australian, but he his first picture was Harold and Maude. went on to become a director and a writer director. He did wonderful films. big Hollywood films. Silver Streak, foul play. A these are really really wonderful, wonderful films. Collin told me 1000s of years ago when he when he was a student at UCLA that he hoped to win first prize in the golden competition. First prize was 40 $500. How they came up with that, I don't know. But that was enough money at that time to live pretty comfortably a student on his own for a year in LA and he would just be able to write that was his goal. When the goldwin not have any day job. no distractions just sit down and write, but he didn't win first prize, he only won second prize. And second prize was 20 $500. So he knew he needed a day job. And so he, he took the perfect actors or writers day job, not a cab driver, not a waiter, but he went to work for a swimming pool cleaning company. And the very first home he comes to the clean is in the flats of Beverly Hills, very wealthy area where a lot of movie people live. And he's vacuuming the pool behind the house. And a man comes out with a screenplay and sits down under an umbrella. Again, like a beach umbrella in the shade to read this screenplay. And it's clearly the guy who owns this house. And so common gets to talking to him and tells him that he's himself a writer and and he's written a script to get this guy to agree to read his screenplay. And sure enough, he ends up producing Harold and Maude and it launches. Comments career, and common says to me imagine if my dream had come true if I'd met my goal, which is if I'd won the Golden prize, first prize as I plan I'd be cleaning fucking swimming pools today, you say? So you got to give over to the circumstances and happenstance. every writer I have written in screen. My screenwriting books is playing God I call screenwriting the god game just as God created the universe. So also does the writer create the universe of her screenplay? You want it to rain it rains, you want it to be sunshiny sunshine, you want to kill somebody, and who has never wanted to kill somebody, you can do that in a in a in a movie and then if you feel remorseful about it, you know you can actually bring them back to life.
So So once again, it's it's a it's a question of surrendering authority, not seizing it, but but surrendering it. And and once again, staying open to the surprise is the very first script I ever wrote, was in a class at or in Irwin, our blackness Professor blackness course at UCLA at USC all those years ago in the in the 60s. And when I got finished with that draft, I realized the first draft, I realized that I had the wrong protagonist, that it wasn't really this guy's story. It's that guy's story. And that might seem like what a waste that was I, you know, writing that draft, but it wasn't a waste, I needed to do that, to see whose story it was. And then when I knew that I had to throw away some but not all of what I had written. Much of it was still exploitable usable inside the context with the with the other protagonists. But the point is, is that it is an evolving and mysterious process. And I see writers constantly outsmarting themselves. Just just, you know, it's not smart. It's dumb. I met my I'd mentioned earlier my dad, he had a very, very was a bass player. Stand up acoustic he was very, very successful in 15 years or 20 years in his early career at NBC on the arcturion Toscanini. And then 40 years the New York City Ballet, there's nobody that he didn't play with a record with him of any note note as the appropriate word in the last, you know, the mid the half century it's. And he made a very, very good living now what think about what he was doing, what was he actually doing? He was dragging horsehair. That's what the bow is made out of. It's a horse across sheep. Got sheep, the end trails of sheep. That's what they make bass strings out of. He was dragging horsehair across, across sheep got. Why are you doing that? Well, because it makes a sound. Well, I can believe in it just sound is it is yeah, it makes a sound that's so beautiful. that people will actually stand in the in line in the snow or in the heat to pay $100 or $300. You know, for the privilege of going into chamber to hear the noise that somebody makes. I mean, it sounds pretty crazy. But it's not any crazier than writing for the screen. I mean, When somebody comes up to you a stranger comes up to you and says, excuse me, excuse me, I writer. I had a dream. Last night, I have to tell you, I had this dream, I must tell you this dream come May I tell you this dream that I had. And let's say you're such a generous person, and so loving and so kind that you decide. All right, tell me, tell me your dream. Imagine if that person said to you, thank you very much. I'll tell you the dream. But first, there are two issues we have to address. One is, you have to be prepared to spend 100 it's gonna take me 100 minutes an hour and 40 minutes to tell you this dream. Whoa, wait a minute, I wasn't doing that. And what's the other requirement? The other requirement is I need $15 right now, or whatever else it got whatever the price is at a movie theater. Right? Let us figure that crank up the lithium on this guy's drip. He's mad, you know, I'm gonna stand here for an hour and 40 minutes and pay him for the privilege of and yet that that is just insanity. And yet it's what every writer is asking the audience to do asking scores 10s. In this world, hundreds of millions. I'll bet you a billion people on the planet have had some exposure to some aspect of the Star
Alex Ferrari 1:21:27 Wars more than that more than one and easily,
Richard Walter 1:21:31 you know, so it's, it's pretty crazy. I have a quick quick story about that, that's been on my mind lately, because I recently ran into the writer in the early 80s, long time ago now. The big item in in Hollywood was Beverly Hills Cop was very successful picture very good picture. And everyone is looking for Beverly Hills Cop now with my class, the main class at UCLA, I used to lecture to hundreds of students from time to time, one hour a week. But the main class that I taught every single quarter that I was there, we have 310 week quarters, instead of the more traditional two semesters, every academic so three times a year, I would have a 10 week seminar with eight writers around the table. And at the first class, everybody would come much more than eight would come over, you're trying to figure out who's gonna be in the class and everybody, I might get 35 people showing up. But everybody would quickly pitch. The basic notion about what the script they wanted to write. This was a feature length screenplay writing class. And the there were no assigned readings, no tests, just one paper and it was a professional quality feature length screenplay. So what's the script going to bake? And before we got started, I remember telling everybody that right now what everybody's looking for is a cop action. cop buddy action melodramas, like Beverly Hills Cop. That's what the agents looking for. That's what everybody's writing goes across town. That's what produces a seeking. Therefore, don't do that. It'll be one of 600 such scripts. I said, that's the smart thing to do is to do that. Don't do the smart thing. Do the stupid thing. Nobody I mentioned. Nobody is buying westerns that hasn't been a winner. Right? A Western. It'll be the only Western that's out there. So a student in the class did he wrote a Western, I could walk you through and I can't remember the names of my grandchildren. I can't remember where I parked my car. But I can walk you through this script that this writer wrote almost 40 years ago. That's how good it was. And it was a funny Western. Now I've mentioned to you that I went to film school with really famous people. I also mentioned to you that I went to before that I went to school in Binghamton, New York. My roommate in Binghamton. My roommate at Harper College is Andrew Bergman. And he lives in New York. I live here but we've maintained we're still very very close buddies. Andy Bergman is a very well known writer, director producer he really was was the force that originated Blazing Saddles. He has story by credit plus a shared written by with Mel Brooks and three other writers. One of them by the way, is Richard Pryor.
Alex Ferrari 1:24:24 Yeah, it was about to be in that
Richard Walter 1:24:26 Andy wrote and directed dumb. Penguin in Vegas, the freshmen he wrote a lot of movies that he didn't directly directs movies that he didn't write anyway, his claim to fame originally was Blazing Saddles. He formed his own production company. So when I read this script, I'm still very close with with Andy I, he's in New York. I'm here but we see each other a lot. He comes out here a lot. We talk to each other. I go, I live in New York, a lot of a lot of family. There are a lot of business there. My representation is there. My publishers are there. I said to me The you, you like funny westerns, you have a production company I got a funny Wester said he read this writer script. And he loved it. So he and his producing partner acquired it now they only spent a very little bit of money, just to option it for like a month. Some writers don't understand that. If you're going to our opinion, if you're the shorter the option, the better for you. You've given away less, there's more pressure on the producer to to produce. I heard two people, two writers at farmer's market at a breakfast one was saying that his option was three months. That is only my options a year, you know, like he was pleased that his optimism was a year. That's like an old joke. There's a contest. And first prize is a week in Philadelphia. And second prize is two weeks in Philadelphia. In any event, during that months, this guy was shown around Hollywood, and at the end of the month, nobody bought the script. So the script 100% of the rights returned to the writer. And he also kept killing option money. trivial, relatively trivial as it as it was. So all by itself, not such a bad deal. But it wasn't all by itself in that month, he'd gone. He'd been shown around under the best circumstances in Hollywood, not by himself, they wouldn't have read them. Not by his agent, he didn't have an agent. But even if you have an agent is not as good as being shown around by a producer with a track record of making hit movies once make your movie. So he was read not by underlings, but by the heads of all of the studios. Now, there's nothing wrong with being read by underlings. I actually think sometimes you're better off being read by underlings. They have to finish the script, and they have to write a report on it. Also, I think sometimes you're better off with somebody who's trying to make her career. As you're trying to make your career you may become allies in that way. But there's also nothing wrong with being read by all of the presidents of the studios. So he went from being completely unknown to being very well known. And if that's all that came out of it, not so bad, but it's still not all that came out of it. Imagine you're at one company, it was Fox. They said we don't want to make this movie. But we love this voice. And we think that this guy might be right we have a problem script, we have not been able to get an A list Hollywood writer to get a handle on we want to give this guy a shot at it if he's willing. And so they hired him to do a rewrite. And since it was his first job ever, and it was just rewriting somebody else's whole script. All they paid him for that was $10,000 a week. Wow. They said it would take eight weeks. So when 10 weeks do the math. It's still not really got out I would imagine you're an unrepresented writer. And a major student wants to make a deal with you for 10k a week to do a rewrite assignment agents and and lead managers will line up at your door with you for the privilege of representing how many writers are watching this over the phone and Asia here are agents trying to find this guy as a result of of this stupid script. And he wrote that script that nobody would be interested in, in a Western. So he got you know, he's able to pick and choose his management. He chose major representation and he's had a career now for decades after
Alex Ferrari 1:28:25 who but who is this? Who is this
Richard Walter 1:28:27 Jim strain? Oh, the script is called actually, paradise Gulch. It is hilarious and meaningful. Jim the most recent last year, he had a series on the that was streaming involving. He wrote all I think he wrote four out of six episodes of a limited series involving Dolly Parton. A very, very busy writer. I've also I'm no longer at UCLA now. Three full years gone from Westwood, but I did hire Jim over the years to come in and, and teach. But you see how a script that didn't sell. Nevertheless,
Alex Ferrari 1:29:09 open doors,
Richard Walter 1:29:10 open doors and launch a career my own first script which I wrote in or when our blockers class in the mid to late 60s, I never sold that script, but I got major representation. As a result of that. I got on staff, they still had staffs at Universal, I got assignments, on the strength of that script, at Warner Brothers and elsewhere. So you get once again, as an example of what I was talking about earlier, focusing too narrowly don't focus on the sale of the script. Just tell a good story and think career wise, think long term wise and just sorta get out of your own way and see what happens. Now,
Alex Ferrari 1:29:49 I wish we could keep talking for another three hours, I'm sure so I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you a few questions kind of rapid fire questions that I asked all of my guests. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. What are three screenplays every screenwriter should read?
Richard Walter 1:30:13 Wow. Well, you know again I like to say you should see the movies rather than read the screenplays when you read the screenplays, you're often looking at shooting scripts that have angles and that they're not appropriate. Certainly, Kane Citizen Kane, you know, there's nothing more boring than a college professor, a film Professor telling you that the greatest movie ever made was his skin. But I really do sincerely believe that. Wow, what a what a? What a terrific question. That is. I think one of my favorite movies is Midnight Cowboy. Must be about 30 years old ready. Walt Walter? Oh, I'm trying to met him. I'm blanking on the name of the of the writer of it. I have a book by him someone nearby. But that is a I think that's a brilliant, brilliant script. And a good example of of having people who are different from you, nonetheless, that you're able to identify with, and I'm going to go to two when I said earlier, I think you should read the Old 65 hours of Breaking Bad, you wouldn't do bad to read The Sopranos. Once again, the beauty of the sopranos I here I am, you know, college or university professor and here's, here's Tony Soprano, Jersey mom, boss. There are no more people on the planet, more different from one another than then then Tony and me. But when I look at Tony Soprano, I see me I see a guy who has issues with his adolescent children who has conflict with his bride. one thing or another, who is upset with his mother about someone whose mother was upset with him. So it's not about this connection, but connection. You want to be able to see these people and identify with them feel what they feel, even though they are so very different from you. So I hope I'm allowed to put streamers and cable in In short,
Alex Ferrari 1:32:27 absolutely, absolutely.
Richard Walter 1:32:29 Now, I will also say I think that camrys adaptation of old Charlie Webb's the graduate, no scratch is a fantastic, fantastic script. What a world what a well written script that is
Alex Ferrari 1:32:44 now What advice would you give a screenwriter trying to break in the business today?
Richard Walter 1:32:50 Right, right, right. It's, you know, I haven't I tell a story about I and I've written about it are prisoner prisoners write to me prisoners who are writers and one person wrote to me really, he didn't send me a script, but he asked for permission to send the script. And by the way, that's, that's the way to do it is to write a good query letter. When I see writers tell me that they wrote a query letter and nobody's responding and I read the letter, it's allows it's an invariably a lousy letter. The the thing you should do is, is the one thing that only you can do, directors can't do it. Actors can't do it cutters, costumers, hairdressers, lawyers, producers agents, they can do this on is to write this particular president wrote to me and he said I I've written four screenplays right away. I love this guy. He's not he hasn't written one screenplay. And he just wants to send it off. Written for screenplays. Remember, when the screenplay doesn't sell, as we said before, all kinds of gave examples of all kinds of, of rewards that can accrue besides the sale of the, of the of the script. Every screenwriter is an independent entrepreneur, a businessman or businesswoman, and every business has something called inventory, and that you create your own inventory and it may sell way down the line. You know, Muslim peoples wrote, he won the Oscar for clints pictures, also best picture of the year Unforgiven. That script sat around for 20 years. The I've had material board and my last novel was actually a I also an author of fiction and nonfiction last novel that I wrote. I started as a screenplay at least 30 years ago, and it came out like 20 years later as a novel. I used it at old As an outline and elaborate outline for a novel, and I was able to sell it as a novel and get it published as a novel, it became a Times Bestseller just for one week and only like number 13. But you know, I'll take it, I'll take it earned out, it's advance in its first printing. And that's unusual that and that something like 94 or five or 6% of published books do not earn out their advance this one did it on the first printing. Again, though yours then once it was a novel, suddenly there was interest in it as a ditto on another novel that I wrote, I wrote it as a an elaborate outline, really an elaborate treatment. Somebody once said, Dorothy Parker said Hollywood is the one place on earth where you could die of encouragement.
Alex Ferrari 1:35:48 It's so true.
Richard Walter 1:35:48 It's so many encouraged me on this script when I never got was a nickel for and eventually I used it as an outline for a novel. And that was extremely naive novels are even harder to sell than than screenplays. Believe it or not. But I did sell it. And the answer there, by the way, is that naive Tay? Is your friend be naive be stupid. The that novel, then suddenly, because it was a novel and it had been published had been authenticated, approved by a major New York publishing conglomerate. Suddenly it was legitimate in Hollywood immediately the rights sold to a studio that had previously it turned down pass on the script. So you get just you just don't know the owner. You know? I am even though I'm retired now. The region's still require that every day I am since I'm a former conference, I must quote Socrates every day once a day. Thanks for laughing. Here's my quote. But today, I think it's the smartest thing anybody ever said. And here's something he said the only thing you know for sure. Is that you don't know anything for sure. Let me tell you one last quick story. I am now in the lockdown. I can't do it. But I am a fanatical obsessive compulsive swimmer. at UCLA I swam and over my 40 years in the sunset Canyon recreation center pool. Literally people say literally when they mean figuratively but I mean, in the traditional sense, I swim 12 or 13 to 14,000 miles in that pool every day. 1600 700 meters in that pool in 1984 a 1984. The Olympics were here in Los Angeles. And then in 1988, they were in Korea, they were in Seoul. And that year 88. The women's swim team coach, the American women's swim team coach brought all the women from across the country wherever they were, and guess where they were where you'd think Florida, Texas, California, that's where the swimmers are. Apparently, he brought the women all to UCLA six weeks before the game they would try. They would train in Los Angeles for two weeks, then Honolulu for two weeks. Then two weeks before the games they would they would be in Seoul and they would be working out there The idea being that there should be no jet lag and on a sport like swimming of just a few hundredths of a second makes the difference between metal and nothing. And so for two weeks I was at we had set aside several lanes for the Olympians. And I was swimming alongside some real champions including a woman from Cerritos. I'm kind of pointing to the east of here, a Janet Evans champion swimmer and if you watch Janet Evans, swim, you see it's very splashy. It's very inelegant. She doesn't have long, graceful strokes. It doesn't look very efficient. She only does one thing right and can you guess what that is? She goes fast. She did the water just Boyle's around her. And I overheard a there was a lot of press coming up because there were these athletic stars. And I overheard a coach, the coach giving a an interview to a reporter. And their brother was asking him, why don't you work with Dan Evans on his stroke? It's so sloppy. It's so splashing, it's only fishing. And the coach said something that I think is great advice for coaches, giving advice to swimmers but also parents giving advice to children and arts educators like me giving advice to artists. And here's what he said to the reporter Why don't you work against the question, why don't you help her with a stroke, improve a stroke and he said, you know, half being a coach, he said, half the job is showing the way and the other half is getting out of the way. And I think too many writers get in our own way. I have a little code if you read my book, essentials of screenwriting the middle section. The big section is called notes on notes. And it has evolved over the years for my doing script analysis. I Do a lot of script doctoring off campus working with writers who want notes on the script. Some of them are actually you know writers with deals at studios who are saying hey Richie asked me the hard questions before the producer asks them they can pay me a nice fee they get no you know, half a million dollars or more. And sometimes producers themselves will come to me and say listen, she owes us another draft help us help us. Or give us your your notes. And, and so on. And out of that process. As I read scripts, I make notes in the margins there has evolved a whole litany a whole catalogue of advice that I give a gift to writers and one of them is gu Yao, Gao y o wl right next to somebodies speech line of dialogue that they've written.
And it stands for get out of your own way. Goo Yeah, I'll see in the middle of a speech a beautiful, beautiful line. But it's it's masked. By overriding there's something that comes before it that isn't necessary, there's something that comes after it that isn't, isn't necessary. The trick is, once again, to you can succeed at this, if you will really do three things. One is only sight and sound. Only sight and sound stick to sight and sound, look at your page and imagine what what a viewer in the audience is seeing. And if you can't see that, then then it needs attention. It's it's something else. The next thing is, as I already said, it's got every single site and everything has to move the story forward. It's so easy to know if it does that or doesn't do that by just eliminating it and imagine that it's that it's not there. If it still plays then you didn't need it. Remember, integrate all rules are off of its integration. Forgive me because I'm going to tell you one last quick joke, a guy goes into a library. I said before I tell you this, one of the things that I'm really against is parents ethical directions. I've seen scripts with without one line that didn't have with that did not have one single line without I've seen scripts, if you took out the parenthetical directions, you'd lose eight, even 12 pages just banter the directions. So I'm against that, you know, Shakespeare never had melancholy Hamlet melancholy. Nevertheless, here's a joke. A guy walks into the library, and he steps over the desk to the library and I have a hamburger with Coke, and an order of fries. So the librarian systems. This is the library. He says, oh, okay, you understand? Now why do I tell you that joke? Because if that were dialogue, in a screenplay, you'd have to have the parent phenocal whispers or whispering? If you didn't, if you took that out, I have a hammer always is this lower than the line again, it doesn't make any you need the whispering at all goes to hell without that. But that's exceptional. And if you if you confuse the exception for the rule, you're gonna follow on your on your face every time. So less is more you have to say less. We've been trained to write too much. We have to go against that. I once said to Syd field, I miss him every day was good pal of mine. maturing is instead agreed with deep blink. He's I said maturing as a writer means not merely learning to throw stuff away, but learning to love to throw stuff away.
Alex Ferrari 1:43:37 Yeah. And it's not it's not easy. For sure. No. Now where can people find your book and find out more about you?
Richard Walter 1:43:44 God bless as somebody was saying the other day. Is Amazon a wonderful or a dreadful thing? And the answer is yes.
Alex Ferrari 1:43:52 Agreed. Agreed. 100%
Richard Walter 1:43:55 And you can find it on Amazon. You could also go to my my website. Richard Walter, there's no s at the end of my name Richard walker.com. Which will give you filiana about my my my webinars I do a I have been offering I've offered about a half a dozen times. Since I've retired a six week limited enrollment. interactive online webinar. This goes back to before the pandemic. anybody anywhere in the world can and people all around the world. Some people you know, like in Sydney, Australia, Iran at a three in the morning or whatever it is. It's six weeks, one day a week, 90 minute session that we do. We review writers pages who are participating in Islam and enrollment. I do need to tell you that as soon as we announced it, it sells out. anybody who is interested in taking that should go to my website. And then you'll think you'll be able to communicate with my manager Kathy Berardi to be put on the list of people be notified the next time you offer it so you get a chance to enroll it if if you want To my book is essential to screenwriting, the my current screenwriting book, I just got a royalty check from the American publisher for it. Why do I tell you that because I also got a royalty check from the the Beijing publisher of of its Mandarin translation and listen to me carefully now the the Chinese payment was 55 zero 50 times larger than the American royalty. I mean I'm apparently I'm a big hit, you can't walk you can't walk the streets
Alex Ferrari 1:45:33 you can't walk the streets in Beijing.
Richard Walter 1:45:38 I have enjoyed not recently been I when I was in China toward China in 87. With a group of scholars, they treat us like rock stars and I had a ball there and I was back about 10 years ago. Writers came from all over the People's Republic to hear me for a week and she on the ancient central central capital. But it what's interesting to me and I have traveled all around the world and you know, done a lot of international events including IT consulting with, with audience with with with National Film Development Corporation officials, and they all want to know that they are asked me the same quick question. films made outside the United States, only one in 10 is ever shown outside the country have its origin. But all all American films are shown outside the country there are some are only shown outside the country that aren't because it can't even get a domestic distribution deal here. And I think they want to know how they can get that for their own films. And I think it has to do with with diversity even even before casting was diverse. And it needs to be still more diverse. There is something in the American psyche that is biological, I think there's something about narrative. I really believe that Aristotle's model of the narrative what is the story a story is a real, really well constructed story is a model an idealized romanticized model of a human life childhood which is short, big, middle, and ideally a very, very quick ending. Raise your hand if you're looking forward to being on recessive taters and Ivy's, you know, for 30 for let's say, four or five, six years, at the end of your life, most people know she passed away peacefully in his sleep. And so and by the way, that's also a good a good reason to realize that every screenplay is a is a self portrait. Yeah, it's a model of a human life whose life the person who's writing it regardless of whatever else, it's about. And that's why you know, there's a guy, a very popular screenwriting educator over the years, not a university guy, and you know, self appointed one of the self appointed gurus, very popular. And one thing he says and both, by the way, most of all gurus I mentioned Syd field, we pretty much we get we agree about much more than we, you know, then we disagree. We agree it's about it's really about story. But this guy, and I have one disagreement, he says, Whatever you do, don't write your own personal little story.
Alex Ferrari 1:48:25 Yeah, I know. I know, I know who you're talking about.
Richard Walter 1:48:28 He says you should be if you're a professional, you should be treating yourself as you want other people to treat you like a professional. You got to treat yourself as a professional professional gauges. what's hot now, by the way, everything I'm saying now is a lie. I disagree with everything. I'm saying that but aren't I saying it persuasively, very much. You got a gauge? Do you know what the groceries were last weekend and so on, and one of them and stay apprised of the trades? And in fact, there's one very popular book that says you should actually stop people in the street and asked them about an idea that you have before you get started. The city, especially young people should ask young people then the main audience, you will you be interested in? Can you imagine somebody's being interested in something that the writer herself isn't even interested in? You know? Can you imagine somebody comes up to you and says, I have an idea for school? You know, can I tell you what I want? I just want to tell you the idea. It's about a high school chemistry teacher who gets cancer. And he, so he goes into the math trade. I mean, that's the stupidest idea I've ever heard. That's gonna be 63 hours of genius. If you get a crit What about if somebody came up to you and said, I have an idea for a movie. This guy stutters but he has to give a speech. So he hires a speech therapist and he gives the speech
Alex Ferrari 1:49:58 Oscar winner
Richard Walter 1:50:00 What if the guy said oh, well, I'm sorry that you don't like it, but I think it's actually going to win the Oscar for Best Screenplay. Best Picture. You'd figure this is a lunatic who needs to be 911911. And yet of course, that is an Oscar winning that is the Oscar winning movie The The King's Speech, The King's Speech. So so all you can run, I'm saying quite the contrary. I'm saying it's not okay to write your own personal so I'm saying that's the only story you should ever you should ever be able to able to write. I told you that I went to school with George Lucas. Francis Francis Ford Coppola when he formed his company, American zoetrope, he took George under his wing, he kind of mentored George. George's father was an executive at Xerox and Francis, who was not above looking for a bargain, asked George when he formed zoetrope, can you talk to your dad maybe about getting the photocopy services, you know, discounted rates for the photocopying? And George said to him? No, I can't do that. I don't get along with my father. We're kind of a strange he thinks I'm wasting my life in this business. He's hoping for me to get over this and get into something where I could make a living, you know, and I can't ask him for any we don't get along with well, who is the antagonist in Star Wars. It's a guy named Vader VAD er, VA t e. r. viatera. In German means father, Darth Vader, dark. Father, Luke, I'm your father. I'm here to tell you that Star Wars is a very keenly deeply personal movie. And you don't have a chance as a writer. If you're trying to figure out what other people will respond to, you have to write about what you care about. And just like the writers, David Chase, and his writers who created the sopranos, you have to do it in such a way that even though it's very different universe, very different people, it's still humans. I tell you again, I really believe that biology that that narrative is a biological enterprise, we need it. In our lives. It has been pointed out you know, a woman put that up lift before I was another saying beware of uplift. I mean, have you ever seen Matt Beth visit uplifting? Hamlet ends with nine corpses on the stage. Some of them have been run through on swords. Some of them have been poisoned. Gone with the Wind, very, very dark, unhappy ending, the Godfather terrible, you know, hardly, hardly uplifting. You do not need to worry about uplifting. I will tell you that I once lectured to I'm not a Christian and not a non evangelical Christian. I lectured to a convention of evangelical Christians 500 pastors from all across the country in Chicago about six or eight years ago, gathered in Chicago for the weekend, I will tell you also that I never experience more love. More referring group. They were just wonderful at the best time with these breaches. And I was telling them, then if you want people why was Isaiah well, because they were exploring the the narrative in Scripture. You know, if you look at the Old Testament, matter of fact, if you look at the New Testament, or if you look at the Muslim Bible, the Quran, there's advice, there's kind of commentary there principal, mainly its stories. And by the way, they are not polite, reassuring, comfortable stories. You know, the very, I still remember being in a boring event at a religious institution, alongside my son, and we were both looking at in front of us, you know, in the, in the back of the pews in front of us, were Bibles. And so we were looking at, at Genesis and the story of lat, the very first book of the Bible, Genesis, and here's the story, but this old man whose daughters get them drunk, each of his daughters get getting drunk, so that they can have sex with them and conceive a child with and that's not some tabloid. That's homeys graph chart. In any event, again, I told the preachers, that if they want to keep people in the church
after Sunday morning after they leave the church, and it's to say if you want them to be hefting, and considering their sermon all day, and once it's a really good sermon, what about the rest of the week thinking about what pastor Jones said, that was kind of provocative, I went on one hand If you want them to do that, and rather than just forget about it, you don't have to make them feel good. You just have to make them feel good out screenwriters. Imagine you're walking past a screen a movie theater. Suddenly the doors open. The movie is just broken. It's ended and the people all stream out there Oh, really crying. You'd say to yourself, gee, that was a sad movie. I mean, I made them feel so I don't want to see that. What the hell and I'm gonna, I'm gonna get right in line right then and there. I'm gonna stand up my date to see that movie. Right? If people feel that strongly imagine you walking down the street. And you run into somebody who's like, wobbling and short of breath. And you think they might fall down and you're so generous. A citizen that you say, Hey, yo, can you take them and you guide them to let's say, there's a bus stop. benches there. You're sitting on the bench, and the person is trying to catch his breath. And you say, should I call 911? And the person says, No, no, no. I'm okay. I'm recovering. Thanks so much. What a generous person you are. Well, what what matters is no, Nothing's the matter. I just saw this movie, I just came out of this movie. I mean, it was just the most upsetting the most frightening part of my life, well, you certainly wouldn't want to see that what the hell you and you immediately want to see that movie,
Alex Ferrari 1:56:31 right? So it's not always about
Richard Walter 1:56:32 the movies. It's a safe place to experience these lethal aspects of our nature so that when we experience them in real life, then inevitably we will nobody gets out of here alive. And before we die, we will have to face the loss of other loved ones. If you've been through that experience, emotionally in a movie theater, and you survived it, it helps you survive it in real life. That's why film is not just just an add on, you know, it's really an essential part of our emotional and spiritual diet. If we don't get art, in particular narrative art. We will become in our spirits and our souls will become distended and misshapen in the same way that bodies do when they are under nourish. So you know, in terms of protein, and and, you know, vitamins and minerals. What I'm saying is that what we are doing is important if you're a screenwriter, you are doing something that is very, very important. One last thought and it's about cubby broccoli, he used to produce the the James Bond pictures. Yeah. And every time the new bond picture came out, I always thought I sort of gave up on the bond picture some years ago, but I really did like the Sean Connery ones, which they call them cubby broccoli, I'm roughly produced every time a new picture would come out. I know barbecue committee would give a press conference. And he would always say, I we know what we're doing here. We're just trying to entertain the people. We're not doing my best. We just want to provide some entertainment. I was wanting to ask them I always was waiting for a reporter to ask them. Have you ever seen that Beth? How entertaining it is. It's got witches and riddles and special effects. You know, the blood on the hands? Is this a dagger I see before me. You know he hallucinates. It is a very entertaining enterprise. It's not one or the other. Right? these things all exists. together. They have no meaning. separately. I have a friend of mine who's a member of a writing team, very successful TV team. I was in touch with the other day and he said he was talking to some somebody who wants to become a writer. And he said that he's part of a team. He works with a partner. And he said, Oh, that's interesting. How does it work? You do the characters and he does the story? I mean, can you? No,
Alex Ferrari 1:59:23 no, no.
Richard Walter 1:59:24 That way I mean, it can't be done that way. It can only be done as a unit. Integrated, it's always sloppy and unorganized. It's never perfect. the truest thing setting I've ever heard said in my life was by the Rolling Stones and here it is can't get know. Exactly. Act and stop trying to be satisfied. I met James Epstein. He wrote he's now deceased, but he lived in his 90s. He wrote among other pictures, Casablanca and I said to all Mr. Gibson Wow. Well, I was thrilled to meet you all I or any of my film phony pals. All we hoped for is once in our lives. We should, as you did with Casablanca, peps, something that's timeless and eternal that will affect the hearts and minds of people. Now one of the great if I could tell you that Julius said the whole kind of you to say that Thank you, but he's a writer. That's not what he said. What he said. By the way he lived here for he came up from New York and when he was 20, he lived here for 70 something years maybe never lost that Brooklyn option. Yeah. Casablanca master plan do they fuck that up? You know, the same way Claude Rains education can hear his barking and griping about his movie what movie Casablanca and all I could think of myself as well. I wish somebody would, would ruin my movie
Alex Ferrari 2:00:50 like that like that like that. Right?
Richard Walter 2:00:52 Well, once again, you got to stop being perfect. Just just be a human being. You know what makes it God is perfect. We are imperfect. What makes us perfect if if anything, is our imperfection, we are perfectly imperfect. And our works don't need to be perfect either. I'm promising you will succeed. If you can make a movie that makes people feel some strong passion about anything, scare them, provoke them. You do not mean to make you comfortable. Indeed, the last thing you want is for them to be comfortable. Make them sorrowful frighten them, outrage them offend them.
Alex Ferrari 2:01:40 make them laugh and anything yeah,
Richard Walter 2:01:42 they will. That's what they're there in entitled to write. That is the job of the writer and the way to do that is by telling a good story. Telling a good story that way see there are guys out there who make movies that have terrific little moments. Forgive me I think the Coen brothers are like this somewhat over appreciated they can have like wacky crazy thing that happens and it is kind of fun. And I envision this and that but much harder than that is having a spine the through line where everything relates to every everything else parting shot, I was breaking and Breaking Bad. Does anybody remember? Do you remember you've seen seen Breaking Bad? Sure. Remember the whites opening line? The first line of dialogue spoken by Walter White and my first line of dialogue spoken by anybody in the series? Okay, remember he's it opens with
Alex Ferrari 2:02:48 the gun. Well,
Richard Walter 2:02:49 he he's racing through the desert in the RV. That is you know, you see a guy you don't know what's going on. He's he's naked except for his underpants. He's wearing a gas mask. Amazing pigments sitting next in the same way. Right? They drive on the back. We don't know what the heck is going on in the back of the vehicle. You can see two guys unconscious on the floor. You know, what is this? Well wondering where this? That's good. We're curious. We want to know, when finally we catch up with him later in the the episode. That's that pilot episode. We see him in his classroom, his chemistry classroom. And he speaks his first line. And what is his first line? He says, chemistry is transformation. Oh, you could think about how chemistry changes things. But what can you think of something else? That's transformation. Breaking Bad is transforming. It's the transformation of this guy walk away the humble chemistry teacher in Albuquerque, New Mexico, him to Heidegger Heidegger whatever they call him. Hi.
Alex Ferrari 2:03:51 zinger.
Richard Walter 2:03:53 international drug law. You see how everything has to fit to gather.
Alex Ferrari 2:03:59 What's the trick? Walter, we again, we could talk for another four hours. I appreciate you taking the time to talk to us. It is it is it is just sitting there. Like it's like being in a master level. class. So thank you so much for being on the show, my friend.
Richard Walter 2:04:16 My pleasure. Thanks for having me. You know where to reach me when you need man. Good luck to all the writers.
Alex Ferrari 2:04:21 I want to thank Richard so much for coming on the show and dropping his knowledge bombs on the tribe today. Thank you so so much, Richard. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, including how to get his amazing book essentials of screenwriting. Head over to the show notes at bulletproof screenwriting.tv forward slash one to zero. And if you haven't already, head over to screenwriting podcast comm subscribe, and leave a good review for the show. It really helps us out a lot. Thank you again so much for listening guys. As always, keep on writing, no matter what. I'll talk to you soon.
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So you want to write a High Concept Screenplay. Every story starts with a concept. An idea that hopefully causes your eyebrow to arch, your lips to purse, and your brain to go, “Hmmm… intriguing.” It’s what Robert McKee, the author of Story, refers to as the magic “What If.”
For instance, what if a police officer were killed and brought back from the dead as a robot made to serve and protect like in RoboCop.
Or what if a man accused of killing his wife discovers she faked her death to implicate him in her murder as in Gone Girl.
Both ideas have that Hmmm factor: they elicit curiosity — a desire for discovery — an excitement about the possibilities.
Some high concepts grab your immediate attention; others are more nuanced and require other aspects to sell it like an A-list actor or director attached or a producer with a reputable track record — and even then those film can struggle to get made: the film Forrest Gumpwas an Academy Award-winning film, but it took many years to convince a studio to finally make it. That’s because it was a nuanced concept.
Even the most well-established filmmakers must trudge through the quagmire of “no’s” to get their nuanced stories into production before finally getting the green light; you can only imagine how much more difficult it is for the struggling unknown writer trying just to get his or her screenplay read.
Barring access to foreign independent financing or Jake Gyllenhaal shepherding your script from page to screen, the most valuable arsenal at a writer’s disposal is the concept or high concept. The idea that essentially garners interest simply on the idea alone.
Question is, how do you find this high concept idea? That is the million-dollar question — or billion-dollar if you count the receipts of mega-blockbusters like Furious 9.
Unfortunately, there is no magic fountain that you can dip into with ease for these ideas, but there are divining rods that can lead you down the path of interesting possibilities.
One thing I like to do when creating a high concept is to look for the “twist”. The turn of an existing idea that in some way contradicts that concept — in other words, the irony. Tie it into a logline, and you may have the catalyst for that “hmmm” concept.
For instance, When a woman meets the man of her dreams, she must now become the creature of his nightmares to prove her love. Sure it may sound a little hokey, but it illustrates the use of irony that sparks the “what if” synapses in your mind.
Another approach is to take that ironic twist and apply it to characters and stories that are now in the public domain. Public domain is a term that refers to intellectual properties that are available to the public without having to obtain permission for use.
Hollywood has repurposed well-known characters from the public domain for years; Disney has done so with incredible success — Snow White, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, Aladdin— and that’s just scratching the surface.
My guess is that’s what writer Evan Daugherty was probably thinking when he wrote Snow White and the Huntsman, which turned into a box office success for Universal.
Characters like Frankenstein, Dracula, and the Big Bad Wolf are several of many that are available in the public domain. How about this, what if Tarzan were a girl left to fend for herself on an alien planet ruled by gorillas — that’s an example of taking the recognizably familiar and twisting it into an albeit crazy, new direction.
When I approached my writing partner, Jarod, with the idea that is now called The “InSpectres,” I simply posed the premise, what if there was a paranormal investigative team composed of famous literary writers like Arthur Conan Doyle and Charles Dickens. Well, in fact, there was one, and it was this piece of historical fact that became the foundation of our story.
A story that we took even further to include writers Bram Stoker, Robert Louis Stevenson, and Agatha Christie, as well as the most famous magician in history, Harry Houdini.
The high concept was built on making an almost impossible, seemingly possible which in it of itself is the essence of irony. If you want to see another example of this, check out my comic series called Dead Future King. It’s about the return of King Arthur to a modern-day England besieged by a zombie epidemic.
You may dislike zombies or may be ambivalent to the Arthurian legend, but there has been an encouraging amount of “hmmm, tell me more” to suggest I’m on the right track.
One of my favorite resources for this subject came from Terry Rossio, a top Hollywood screenwriter who co-wrote The Pirates of the Caribbean with Ted Elliot.
He wrote a column called Strange Attractor for their site www.wordplayer.comin which he discusses the nuts and bolts of what makes for a good concept. I highly recommend checking it out.
You can be the best writer in town, but if your concept doesn’t grab them instantly, or can’t be explained in a way to get them to go “Hmmm,” then you might be in for a bumpy ride.
Until next time, keep typing away.
David R. Flores is a writer and artist (aka Sic Monkie) based in Los Angeles. He is the creator of the comic book series Dead Future King published by Alterna Comics and Golden Apple Books.
On the show today veteran screenwriter, director, producer, educator, author, Paul Chitlik. Paul has worked on 80’s show classics like the Twilight Zone, Small Wonder, Who’s the Boss, and Perfect Strangers, among others. He spends his free time as a clinical assistant professor teaching Screenwriting at the Loyola Marymount University in Los Angelos.
Small Wonder follows the zany adventures of a suburban family, their next-door neighbors, and an innovative robot designed to look like a human child.
Veteran screenwriting instructor and award-winning writer Paul Chitlik presents an easy-to-read, step-by-step process to take your script from first draft tosubmission draft. He reveals the hidden structure of screenplays, sequences, and scenes, as he guides you through the process of examining your draft, restructuring it, and populating it with believable, complex, and compelling characters.
Along the way he outlines how to make your action leap off the page and your dialogue crackle. While the first edition was widely used in film school rewriting classes, it was also recommended as an introduction to screenwriting craft by a number of professors and professionals. Paul Chitlik has included, for the second edition, more examples, exercises, and applications for television, the web, and other media, using a wide range of citations in film, television, and the Internet to underline his approach.
Paul shared so much of his creative thought process during our conversation and how he approaches cutting his scene. You don’t want to miss it.
Alex Ferrari 0:12 Well guys Today on the show we have screenwriter and author Paul Chitlik. Now Paul has been in the screenwriting game for a long time. He cut his teeth with at sitcoms like who's the boss, amen. Small wonder Twilight Zone, perfect strangers, and so many more. He is also the best selling author of rewrite a step by step guide to strengthening structure, character and drama in your screenplay. Now I wanted Paul to come on the show to discuss the rewriting process, which is one of my favorite parts because I find it to be much easier to rewrite as opposed to right, because once you've got a nice fat piece of meat, you can start trimming the fat much easier than actually creating the meat. So without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Paul Chitlik. I like to welcome the show Paul Chitlik. How you doing Paul?
Paul Chitlik 3:11 Pretty good. How are you?
Alex Ferrari 3:12 I'm as good as we can be in this crazy crazy world that we live in.
Paul Chitlik 3:17 It's nuts.
Alex Ferrari 3:19 It's it is it's there's what can that what can be said that hasn't already been said about the times that we're living in. I mean, it's like a really, I keep saying this. It's a bad alternative timeline from Back to the Future. It is just it's it just does not seem real. It hasn't been real. For years now, I think but specifically this last year is been. It's just insane. So I'm waiting. I'm waiting to wake up. And Marty McFly is going to come with me. Come with me. This is the way to go
Paul Chitlik 3:54 back to the DeLorean.
Alex Ferrari 3:55 Let's go back to the future, please. Yeah.
Paul Chitlik 3:59 It's insane.
Alex Ferrari 4:00 So um, thank you so much for doing the show. I truly appreciate it. Before we get started talking about your book rewrite. How did you get into the business?
Paul Chitlik 4:10 Well, that's a that's a funny thing. When I graduated from college, I went to Europe, because I wanted to be a novelist. I had lived in Europe as a junior in college in Madrid. And I thought, well, I think I'll go back there and he'll write a book, right? Because I was 21 years old and stupid. I got there. It was kind of crazy. But I ended up living in London after that for four years, came back here. And I just took whatever job I could get. And that was translating because I was fluent Spanish speaker by that time and teaching English as a second language. And I got stuck in that world for seven years and one day, I became an administrator at Long Beach Community College. One day, I was standing at the board at the blackboard substituting for one of my teachers. And the little voice inside my head said, this is not the plan. And
Alex Ferrari 5:14 he's in your head, too. Got it?
Paul Chitlik 5:16 That same guy. So I decided I wanted to go back to writing and I did some research and found out that novelist, the average novelist makes $750 a year. At that time,
Alex Ferrari 5:29 that's ambitious, actually, that's pretty ambitious.
Paul Chitlik 5:32 Yeah. So I looked into what does a screenwriter make? And I thought, Oh, that's much better. So I started taking classes in screenwriting at UCLA extension. And I wrote a play I had written a play by that time called Casanova Goldberg. and stuff as you had me,
Alex Ferrari 5:52 you had me at Casanova Goldberg,
Paul Chitlik 5:54 yeah, so I send it around to a couple of agents and one agent. Will the Casanova group will tell you very shortly about what it's about. It's about a guy that works in one of those Catskills hotels as the tumour, the guy that, that programs, all the entertainment and stuff like that. And he's an older man, he's like in the 60s or 70s. And he needs he gets a new assistant, and he falls in love with her, even though she's in her 20s. So, alright, the reason I tell you this is because I pitched it to this agent, he read it and it turns out, he was 78 and has an 18 year old girlfriend. So he, he understood exactly what this was like. Anyway, he got me out there, and he got me my first job on something called Guilty or Innocent.
Alex Ferrari 6:44 Okay
Paul Chitlik 6:44 which was my first Oh, it was a crazy thing. So anyway, that's how I got in the business. And then one thing led to the other,
Alex Ferrari 6:52 is it isn't it funny that one of my first jobs in the business was a translator as well. I was a Spanish translator for Nickelodeon's global guts. It was a it was kind of like a show of kinda like an obstacle course show like those, like, you know, you know, Double Dare and those kind of things for kids. And they had International, an international wing and, and they came in and I call my, um, my, my listeners know that I'm Cuban. So I, I'm from Miami, and I speak from experience fluent Spanish, but then I now I do much more because my wife is is South American as well. So now my Spanish is much, much better. But then I only spoke Cuban Spanish, which, for people don't know Cuban Spanish. It's not proper, but
Paul Chitlik 7:41 it's comprehensible.
Alex Ferrari 7:42 It's up sometimes, you know, it's like Tony Montana, like really, really bad Tony Montana. But I but I could understand I could defend myself No problem. And I call my parents up and I go, Hey, I got a job at Nickelodeon. Being a translator. I'm like, you, Trent. What are you translating? I'm like Spanish. And they go well, in the in the client of the blind, the one eyed man rules and
Paul Chitlik 8:05 vote of confidence.
Alex Ferrari 8:06 And I'm like, true. And and by the way, it was great. It was it. But that's how I kind of got my way into Nickelodeon when I was PA doing pa work and stuff that
Paul Chitlik 8:16 I've worked in Spanish and I taught in Spanish around the world. Yeah, I've taught in Venezuela, in Chile, Cuba, Spain.
Alex Ferrari 8:25 Wow.
Paul Chitlik 8:25 So it's been quite a career.
Alex Ferrari 8:27 Now you you've worked a lot in sitcoms, you were working a lot in the sitcoms in the 80s in the 90s. I have to I have to kind of go through some of my favorites of yours. Because I mean, when I saw them on your, on your filmography, I was like, Well, I have to ask him about this. Small Wonder. I mean, for people not don't know about small wonder, first of all, the most probable and completely acceptable premise for a sitcom ever. It's it's absolutely not ridiculous at all. It's completely acceptable. Almost as acceptable as Alf. I think Alf was a little bit more believable.
But for whatever reason, small wonder, still hold like because there's so many sitcoms in the 80s but that one and it was only a season I think was one or two seasons right?
Paul Chitlik 9:19 five seasons.
Alex Ferrari 9:20 Oh it did run it did run a did run a while. We did 100 shows. Wow, it did. So it kept going. I always thought it was like a quick run. Great. Well, that's even better. So you did a small run on it. Can you tell the audience what Small Wonder was about and And what was your experience doing that show?
Paul Chitlik 9:37 Well, it was a crazy show. We were I was writing with a partner Jeremy merchant Fitch. And we were freelancing at the time. And we pitched small wonder which was a show about a computer expert who invented a I guess you would say a computer driven young girl
Alex Ferrari 9:58 An Android. Like an Android?
Paul Chitlik 10:01 Yeah. A 12 year old Android
Alex Ferrari 10:03 lifelike, lifelike?
Paul Chitlik 10:05 Yeah.
Alex Ferrari 10:06 physic physically lifelike, not speaking, but physically.
Paul Chitlik 10:10 She spoke with his computer voice was very, very strange. we pitched the show to them. We wrote the show. He said, this is the best one that's ever been written for this show, right in front of all of his staff, which I thought was really strange. Then he said, after they shot that one, he said, we want to do a sequel. He said, Great. So we wrote the sequel. And then he said in front of his staff, guys, what made you think you were professional writers? the complete opposite. So we walked out of there thinking What the hell is going on? Well, we knew some of the staff and they said to us, that's alright. That's his game. So I called my agent I said, You know, I don't know what's going on over there. But once you give a call, she gave him a call. We got three more episodes to do after that. So obviously, we knew something about how to do the show. was really strange. We did we did the last show as well. I think shot.
Alex Ferrari 11:09 Oh, did you did that either the the series finale?
Paul Chitlik 11:11 Yeah, the series finale, which was goodbye Hollywood or something like that. I forget.
Alex Ferrari 11:17 Look, I was I was I don't want to tell you what grade I was in. But I was I was a young man. And I would and I use the word man very loosely. back then. I was a young boy, when I watched that. And it was I loved it. It was like it was such a wonderful 80s stuff. It's just so so so great. And you and you also wrote for Twilight Zone, which is, you know, legendary legendary series.
Paul Chitlik 11:40 Well, as a matter of fact, we got the job on Twilight Zone while we were writing for a small wonder. And we were story at the Twilight Zone, we should have been producers, but it had Canadian contents that we weren't allowed to have the title. But that's what we did. We, we listened to pitches, we rewrote people's work. We wrote several episodes ourselves. And that was really probably the best creative experience ever had in television.
Alex Ferrari 12:08 Yeah, you could just jump in, you could jump to whatever every week was a new adventure. There was no through line, there was no characters, you had to kind of pay homage to every you know, and work with exactly is fresh. And it was a fresh short, every,
Paul Chitlik 12:21 every week, every week was a new thing. And I would come into work, I would say, I would come into work after dreaming and say, I had this dream last night. And it was about a guy who points at a deer and the deer freezes. And from there, we made a show why I had a dream about cave drawings, you know about cave drawings, of course, and they came off the cave and became real became a show. So you could just think about things and bang you wouldn't you made a show.
Alex Ferrari 12:53 And it was in the you can't and you can't have the the EP can't say well, you know, that's not really what the characters would do. That's really not the vibe of the show. It's like, and there's there's I know that we did that. I didn't think we released twilight zone with Jordan Peele. It was Jordan Peele It was a twilight zone. Or was it?
Paul Chitlik 13:11 Yeah. And they did it again on CBS prime or whatever it's called. So they it's been it's had at least four different lives. You know, Rod Serling was first. Then CBS did it again in the 80s. And then they did it in syndication. I was I did one for the CBS in the 80s. But and then I also ran with Joseph Kosinski and Jeremy Bertrand Finch. We ran the show for the late 80s. in syndication. We did 30 episodes. Then they did it again on UPN.
Alex Ferrari 13:46 That was the one with Forest Whitaker wasn't Forest Whitaker once Forest Whitaker crash, right? Yeah.
Paul Chitlik 13:50 And they did it again. I guess. Jordan Peele on CBS.
Alex Ferrari 13:54 The Prime one yeah, the whatever these years
Paul Chitlik 13:56 prime word they're there.
Alex Ferrari 13:58 They're streaming all access all access? Yeah. It's hard to keep it's hard to keep track of all the
Paul Chitlik 14:04 The new names.
And they've changed. Let's see, I think CBS has just changed it to paramount.
Alex Ferrari 14:11 Is that no is CBS, CBS and Paramount. Is that going to be the same? I know Paramount plus just came out.
Paul Chitlik 14:17 Paramount Plus,
Alex Ferrari 14:18 it's just coming out.
Paul Chitlik 14:19 I thought it was CBS.
Alex Ferrari 14:21 It might be another chain to get to something I don't. I don't Who the hell knows. It's just so there's so many streaming services. I think that's all gonna I think there's gonna be a reckoning for that. Eventually. We can't be sure. There has to be there has to be something has to happen because spending this obscene amount of money on content. I mean, it's ridiculous. Yeah, rididulous, listen how much
Paul Chitlik 14:44 it's good time to be a writer.
Alex Ferrari 14:46 Yeah, it is. It is a good time to be a writer, especially this last year where you basically just got to stay home and write. It's pretty amazing. I know you've had you've had a very colorful career in In Hollywood, and you decided to write a book to help to help screenwriters about on the process of rewriting, which is something we've really never discussed heavily on the show. And I wanted to kind of dive into the rewrite, because it's something that we all do. We all have to do the rewrite, I always like the rewriting process, personally, much more than the writing process. Because it's like, I've got meat that I can shape or mold clay that I can shape. It's creating the clay, that's a big pain in the butt. All right, you know, so
Paul Chitlik 15:30 the original idea, that's the hard part. But actually, the craft is in the writing is in the rewriting?
Alex Ferrari 15:35 Yes.
Paul Chitlik 15:36 And, you know, no film gets done without many rewrites. As a matter of fact, I was at a conference at the Writers Guild once, several years ago. And we're talking about rewriting and they asked the panel, how many rewrites did your script go through before it got to the stage, and the average was 25. That's a lot of rewriting. Now, it doesn't always mean that you do a big rewrite. Sometimes it's just changing place, changing somebody's gender, taking out a character putting into character, whatever, doing a Polish, but 25 rewrites, and I've done several films where I've had to do that 25 rewrites.
Alex Ferrari 16:16 Oh, yeah. And then there's these legendary stories of like Stallone writing rocky in three days. And, and Stallone ends and Stallone Actually, I saw an interview with them. They asked him that, and he's like, no, I wrote it in three days, but I rewrote it for at least another five, six months. But the for that first draft i'd knocked out in three days. So that is true. It's just, that was not what you saw on the screen.
Paul Chitlik 16:40 Exactly, exactly. Never makes it to the screen on the first draft.
Alex Ferrari 16:43 Absolutely.
Paul Chitlik 16:44 Like the first job. Actually, even even when I worked on real stories of the Highway Patrol, which was a crazy show. I sometimes wrote two or three segments a day. But I always rewrote them in the same day, so at least once, but then I would hand them off to the director and then shoot it. So it only went through one rewrite
Alex Ferrari 17:06 that Yeah, and that was because that show was God if I remember correctly, like I remember the show vaguely in my head. But it was one of those shows that just it was a syndicated show, right. It just kind of
Paul Chitlik 17:14 was syndicated show, and it had two kinds of segments. One was right along, where they just had a guy with a video camera like cops. Yeah, like cops. And then we did recreations of of special things that the highway patrol had done, you know, special hold ups, or bank robberies, or pullovers or shoot outs or whatever. And I wrote 265 of those,
Alex Ferrari 17:39 Jesus. So that's Yeah, that was Yeah, it was, you got to do what you got
Paul Chitlik 17:47 What could I do. I had a family to support in private school, and you know, that to happen.
Alex Ferrari 17:53 I know, I know the feeling my friend. I know that feeling. Alright, so how do you approach a rewrite? Well,
Paul Chitlik 17:59 that's a good question. There's a lot of ways to do it. But the first way, I usually do it in eight steps. And the first step is you got to read it over again, after putting it aside for a couple of weeks and letting it cool off. Because you're not really objective enough, if you just start the rewrite the next day, so read it after a couple of weeks. And then the first thing you need to do is read it for structure. And there are there is a structure that we use in Hollywood, that's used around the world, really, and most people know it, but I'll just you give you a quick review of it. And it's a seven point structure, that is the ordinary life of the character, the inciting incident, the end of Act One goal and plan, the mid point where it's a turning point, the low point, the final challenge, which sometimes it's called the climax, and the return to normal life. So you make sure that your script has all those points. And then you have the connecting tissue for all those points as well. And you make sure all your scenes have those points, because that's the way a good scene is constructed. And make sure that your scenes have conflict. And then you read it over again. And you make sure that your protagonist stands out, and that your protagonist has his or her own language, that we can differentiate that person's language from everybody else's. And we make sure that your protagonist has a flaw, because if he doesn't have a flaw, there's no development, your character has to change from the beginning to the end, or it's not going to happen. Michael Caine used to say, I would read a script, the first five pages of the script and the last five pages of the script. And if the character didn't change, I wouldn't do the show. Yeah, it's a good thing if your character must change. So that's their, your antagonist also has to have a goal. Your protagonist has a goal. Your antagonist has to have goals. To, otherwise they're not in conflict. And those goals have to be in conflict. So you have to make sure about that. And the antagonist has a voice as well, then you have to check to see what is the story of the central emotional relationship. That is to say the person, sometimes called the love relationship. But it's not necessarily that it's not necessarily a romantic love. It could be two brothers, it could be friends, it could be a father and a son, a father and a daughter, whatever. But you have to make sure that there is a story there, too. So there's three stories going on. There's the plot that use your action plot that you see, there's the story that's going inside your character's head, as he's developing from whoever he was at the beginning to wherever he's going to be at the end. And then there's the story of the central emotional relationship. So you have to check for all those stories. And you have to check to see that the dialogue for all those people fits those people and those stories.
Alex Ferrari 21:02 So you're kind of going in as a almost as a doctor and doing a diagnostic on the story. When you're starting to rewrite, you're going in and checking. Okay, is this here? is this here? is this here? How's the heartbeat? Is the flow going? How's your cholesterol? Do you have to reflect this?
Paul Chitlik 21:18 I've never heard it described like that. But that is exactly what it is. We first we examined the patient, we make a diagnosis. And then we make a plan on how to fix it. And the plan is make sure that you have structure, make sure that every scene has conflict, make sure that every scene has structure as well. Make sure that all the dialogue is appropriate to the characters. Make sure that the action rises and falls where you're supposed to rise and fall. And make sure that it's fun to read. So you also have to go over the description. Make sure all the description is terse, and fun, cuz you don't want to have a lot of stuff. You know, you described writing as a haiku. Yeah, we
Alex Ferrari 22:04 were talking about that earlier. Like we were saying writing is arguably very difficult, just good writing period. But writing screenwriter screenwriting is arguably the most difficult form of writing, in my opinion, other than a haiku, because you can write a poem and then you can write a haiku and Haiku has to be so much more every single word has to have meaning so that the construction of Haiku is so much more complicated and harder than just a poem. Same way writing a novel and writing a screenplay are complete, you could tell the same story, but it has to be done so differently. So there's so much it's such a more technical writing, it's a skill set. That is, it's not for everybody. You could be a fantastic writer. I know. There's I mean, perfect example. So many great novelists. I mean, I don't think Stephen King has ever written an amazing screenplay.
Paul Chitlik 22:54 I don't know. Yeah, I mean,
Alex Ferrari 22:56 he, he's
Paul Chitlik 22:56 his stories have been the basis of amazing he
Alex Ferrari 22:59 is he is arguably one of the most prolific and best known and best selling authors of all time, definitely, of our generation, without question, but yet when he's tackled a screenplay, I don't remember. And he has written a few of them. But he's, they're not Oscar winners. And they're. So it's tough.
Paul Chitlik 23:21 Yeah, it's a it's a hard thing to do. I mean, there are there are steps you have to take in there things you have to keep in mind. But as I was saying about description, you know, it has to be like a haiku. It has to be very succinct. But it also has to create an image in your mind. So when people are reading it, and you, you're going to have somewhere between 150 and 5000, people working on your screenplay, they all have to have a document that they can look at, and see the same thing in their head. So that requires you to be very succinct, very clear, and you're writing, but not writing too much, but still writing enough. So it is a very hard technique to learn, but it's not impossible to learn. So that's what I get out of my book, there's, there are steps to take that you can do to improve your screenplay at any stage. And as a matter of fact, as I recommended my book, once you've done your first rewrite, set it aside again, and do another rewrite.
Alex Ferrari 24:26 Now can we touch upon just quickly structure because and I've talked about this on the show before but I just want people listening to really get understanding of this a lot of people's like, Oh, I don't, I don't go through like you know those seven steps that's going to block me in that's not creative. You're, you're not you know, it needs to flow and needs to go in like and be a lot of screenwriters arguably not professional ones, because I've talked to a lot of professional screenwriters at all of them. They might not follow the the, you know, Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey or they might They might not do it. And some of them might not even thinking about it. But when they write, they're such craftsmen and grass women, that they are doing it instinctively. And they've said that they've said, they've said that to me. They're like, I don't think about I don't like sit on page 20 this happens. But I go, but on page 20, that happened, he goes, Yeah, but I didn't think about it. I just, that's just the way it came out. Can you talk just a slight bit about structure and the importance of it? Sure.
Paul Chitlik 25:26 Well, I understand the idea that you want to be free to create what you want to create. But we all understand that most automobiles have four wheels, a transmission, a motor, a steering wheel, brake, pipe, and an accelerator pedal, even electric ones. So we all understand that and how many forms of automobile so we seen 1000s 1000s I mean, a Ferrari is not a Fiat. They all look different. They all have different purposes. And indifference 500 cars different, the same thing with movies, but you still have to have the steering wheel, the four wheels, the brake, the accelerator, the motor. And so that applies to screenwriting. And there are certain things that work. And it's not always the same thing. And it doesn't always have to be in the same exact order, you can have the 12 steps of the hero's journey, but they can be in slightly different order, or slightly more emphasis on one step in another step. Same thing for the seven steps that seven points that I talked about. This is the way a Hollywood movie is formed. And even when, before this paradigm was set out, before Syd field wrote, you know, here's the three act structure, the Wizard of Oz has it. All the other movies that were made at those time had it because you just instinctively if you're a good writer, you know that this is what has to happen. Now we've made it more of a science, so that more people can access this kind of art. But you still have to follow it. Now, that doesn't mean that there are other ways to make a movie. I mean, you make a German movie, or a French movie or a Greek movie, they're different. I mean, in a French movie, everybody commit suicide, if you hadn't, you know, it's in a German movie. Everybody suffers, you know, from
Alex Ferrari 27:20 Italy, Fellini definitely didn't work with with the standard structure.
Paul Chitlik 27:25 Exactly. And those are fine. And those those are great, but you know, those stand up? On the other hand, how well do they do worldwide, not the same as avatar, which has 1007 point actually pops the 12 point structure, not the same as Star Wars, which follows the 12 point structure. But also you can leave that seven point structure right on top of that, and it works perfectly. So yeah, there are other ways to go about things. But you know, how many people see Chinese movies? You don't they don't do well around the world. They do well in China, but they don't do in the United States. It's not just because they're in Chinese. Because we have seen some films out here in Chinese with subtitles. It's because everybody's expecting be told in a certain way. Because we've been expecting that for the last 2500 years. Right? You know, when Aristotle outlined how a story goes, in the days of Greek theater, he was he didn't invent it. He was laying his structure on top of Europe at ease and Sophocles and all those guys. And just saying, Well, here's how it goes. His poetics is not something that he just invented. It's something that he saw the structure of and just presented the three act structure to the rest of the world. So we're used to hearing stories that way. And that seems to be the best way to tell a story. There are other ways to help tell a story and find if you can make that work. Like, I'm just thinking of Koyaanisqatsi. Have you ever seen that movie? It was a documentary, kind of a documentary. And it told a story visually never used any words.
Alex Ferrari 29:05 Oh, yes, yes, yes. Yes. I remember that one. Yeah,
Paul Chitlik 29:07 yeah. Crazy, crazy story. But it didn't follow the seven point structure, but doesn't matter.
Alex Ferrari 29:13 It's art. But it's art. There's a difference between art and commerce. And if you want, if you're spending $200 million for a movie, you got to get a return on investment. And you can't you can't create a $200 million art project.
Paul Chitlik 29:27 Well, it can be an art, it can be artistic. Absolutely. But it's not an art film. Right. You know, so there's, there's room for every kind of film. As a matter of fact, this week I I'm I recommend to my class to read a script, one of my classes to read a script every week. So last week, they read Deadpool, which is a kind of a crazy,
Alex Ferrari 29:49 amazing, crazy, crazy,
Paul Chitlik 29:51 crazy movie and it's really big and it's very action adventure and it's very sarcastic and, and it's very clever. This week, they're going to read Side Ways completely different kinds of
Alex Ferrari 30:03 very much, right? So
Paul Chitlik 30:05 because you There are all kinds of films, there's room for all kinds of films. But if you look at those films, they both Deadpool and Sideways both have seven point structure. And if you follow that structure, you have the ability to freelance, you know, all kinds of ideas into just what I call greenlight thinking. You can think about all kinds of things within that structure, just like you can think of all kinds of different form for an automobile to take.
Alex Ferrari 30:43 What advice would you give killing your darlings, as they say, which is the most one of the most difficult things for a writer to do? And also, I mean, honestly, for a director in the editing room? Oh, yeah. Like you got to cut out a whole scene that took you three days to shoot or it costs x, but it's not working and all of this stuff. What advice do you have, when you have to kill those darlings in your script?
Paul Chitlik 31:08 Well, you have to look at your script. From a realistic point of view, there's, you have to look at every scene and understand what the purpose is of every scene. And there are only two purposes first scene. Purpose number one is to move the story forward. If it doesn't move the story forward, you don't need that scene, it can be the funniest fucking scene that you've ever thought of. But it doesn't move the story, take it out. second purpose to tell us more about the character. If you don't tell us something new about your characters, we don't need that scene. So it has to tell us more something new about the characters and move the story forward, one or the other. If it doesn't do that, you have to take it out. So how do you do that? How do you do that? Well, you you read your script and you ask yourself at the end of every scene, does this scene move the story forward? Is there conflict in the scene? Do we see something new? Do we learn something new about the character? If you can't answer yes to those questions, you have to take it out. And if you want to shorten your scene, there's another way to if it's an important scene, and it does move the story forward. And it does tell something new about the character. But it's too long. Well, there's there ways to cut it. First way you can cut the heads of the tails. So that means enter early, enter later, and exit earlier. So that's a way to cut down your scene. Another way to cut down your scene is to look at every word of view of dialogue, and make sure that every word of dialogue is necessary. Have you repeated dialogue. Do you need to do that? Sometimes some characters repeat themselves on purpose if you've done it on purpose, okay? Is every word in your description necessary? And I'm talking about every uh, every the every is? Are they all necessary? If they're not take them out. So you can shoot. I've never read a script I couldn't cut by 10%.
Alex Ferrari 33:04 Wow. You've never you've never I mean, depending on where they are the rewriting process, obviously, but but Fat Fat script? Yes. I get what you say. If it's Yeah, you're right. And I've gone through my scripts before in the past. And I've literally just started because it's like, oh, it's too many pages. I've got to cut this down. And then you start going to the descriptions and and you get down to that that kind of minute level of, of the thoughts and the A's. And can I shorten this sentence somehow as opposed to kind of kill those three words? It's it's just this honing in. It's It's, um, it's masonry, your brush, chiseling and scolding the corners.
Paul Chitlik 33:44 The other analogy I use is sometimes sculpting. Yeah. So you cut a piece of marble out of the mountain, you have a block. Now, where do you go? Well, you cut away as somebody asked Michelangelo? How he did the PA top? Yeah, I said, I just took away everything that wasn't the Pi top? Well, yeah, that's easy. No, first you carve up kind of a rough copy of the shape that you want. And then you start carving it down and down and down in it. And then you polish it and you polish it a little bit more. And you smooth it and it just it's a process. You don't do it on the first cut.
Yeah.
As the PA top.
Alex Ferrari 34:27 It doesn't it doesn't you can't even though even a master like like Michelangelo could not do that. Because it's not. It's just not the process. It's not the process of any art form. Almost you can't. There's Oh, you could always go back and tighten and
Paul Chitlik 34:43 tweak. You have to go through the process.
Alex Ferrari 34:45 Yeah,
Paul Chitlik 34:45 you have to respect the process.
Alex Ferrari 34:47 And I think that's something that a lot of screenwriters don't do especially young young screenwriters who are new to the craft. They don't understand the the amount of work that is needed to really hone a screenplay to a place Where it's good enough to even be read. And, and then I'm not even talking about the idea. I'm not even talking about if it's marketable, I'm not even talking just the craft of a good, well written screenplay. That's why a lot of agents and please correct me wrong, like agents and managers will read a script and like, yeah, this will never get made. But I see the talent here. Now let's put them on a project or get them into a writers room, because he or she will be able to do really well. Even though this this script is crap. As far as Mark ability is concerned, it will never ever, ever get made. But I see that they have, they have an understanding of the craft.
Paul Chitlik 35:40 Sure. And that's what a spec, a good spec script should have. Not necessarily a makeup script or shootable script. But it should be crafted, it should be well crafted, we can see not only well crafted, it should have something different about it, it should have that particular writers voice. And that's what really sets it off something that speaks directly to the person, but it also speaks of the person so that we're talking person to person, and you can see in your head, what I was seeing in my head
Alex Ferrari 36:16 when I was writing story. Now, um, can you talk a little bit about that central emotional relationship with those characters, you kind of go deeper into that?
Paul Chitlik 36:27 Sure. Every film that you see has a central emotional relationship, every good film, then not every film is good, but every good. And romantic comedies are more complicated, because that is about the central emotional relationship. But there is there's always something else going on at the same time. Like you've got mail had something else going on at the same time, the bookstore story that was going on it besides the romance. So the central emotional relationship is something that people could in movies to see they go to the movies to see people and their relationships with other people, not just action, but their relationships with other people. Even fast, the Fast and Furious franchise, which is I don't know what they're
Alex Ferrari 37:16 nine or nine, there are nine right now. But as Vin Diesel says also many times in the movie, it's about family.
Paul Chitlik 37:26 Okay, so it's about family. It's not about cars and racing, right? It's about family, it's what we see the relationship between those characters. That's what's important. And so every film has got a central emotional relationship, the relationship that your central character your protagonist has with another character. Usually, as I said before, it could be a romantic relationship. It can be a familiar relationship, a father and a son, a mother and a daughter, sisters, brothers, whatever, it doesn't really matter,
But it's always about people. So that relationship also follows a seven point structure. So there's an ordinary life that, let me back up a little bit. That relationship has to either be created or resuscitated in the film, because a lot of times, you'll start off with a film where there's a bad relationship between two people. And they have to fix that relationship along the course of the film,
Alex Ferrari 38:32 like rain man would be a great example of that
Paul Chitlik 38:35 there's a good one, very good, he has to establish a relationship there. And he has to fix the relationship. So we have the ordinary life where they first meet, or we see them individually, then they first meet, and that would be the inciting incident. At the end of that one, your central character has to think about forming that relationship. I want to be with this person, I want to fix this relationship, whichever one it is, if it's a romantic comedy, I want to be with this person. Or if it's one romantic comedy about divorce people, so I want to fix this relationship. His golf, his girl Friday is about that. That's a no film, but he wanted to fix that relationship. That's what that was, that movie was really about. There's a midpoint where that relationship goes to another level. So it doesn't always have to be a sexual level, but can be just as friends, they go to another level. But if it's a romantic movie, they go to another level, usually physically, they kiss for the first time, or they make love for the first time. Something happens that's different than what's happened before that. But then they screw up, because people screw up. And it's because of their flaw that we talked about earlier that every character every protagonist has to have a flaw and they screw up because of that flaw and they screw up that relationship at the low point in the film. And now they have to fix that relationship. Before they can get into the climax of the actual plot of the film, so they have to fix that relationship, they have to overcome their flaw, then they can go into the climax, or the final challenge, as I call and, and come out victorious. And then there's the return to ordinary life with your central character, and his or her central emotional relationship, and we see them enjoying the fruits of their labors.
Alex Ferrari 40:28 Right, then, so as you were talking, I'm just running Rain Man in my head, as you know, the relationship in the, in the seven points in that relationship, where I think that that that next level where they they start with Tom Cruise, and Dustin Hoffman Finally, changed the relationship is when he gets dressed up to go to the to the casino. And all of a sudden, they're working together as opposed to being completely at each other on each other's throat. I mean, Tom Cruise is just that doesn't doesn't happen does not change. He's, you know, Raman is Raman. But, but then it's followed right afterwards, with the low point, one of the low points is that he's like, Oh, my God, this relationship has changed, we're finally going to be brothers. He goes to hug them. And he has a complete meltdown. Because he can't handle that, because. And that's I felt that was like, one of the lowest parts of that it was such a powerful secret. Am I right in analyzing that?
Paul Chitlik 41:30 Exactly. And you see that the part of the film that you remember the most. And you remember the relationship between those two men? That's what that film is about?
Alex Ferrari 41:41 Yeah.
Paul Chitlik 41:42 So it's all about just, it's such a movie like that wouldn't ever get made in the studio today. It just wouldn't, unfortunately, but the transformation of Tom Cruise's character throughout from being that just arrogant cocky in it for myself only selfish character to the end, literally willing to give up everything for his brother, sorry, spoiler alert, guys, but it's on you if you haven't seen the movie. And being able to give give of himself, even though at the end, he just he what, what doesn't have to need he can't give him. It's true.
But the Tom Cruise character did change, remember, very much. So huge character arc, he changes from the beginning to the end, he starts with the fly, he ends up a better person. And that's what we go to movies to see.
Alex Ferrari 42:32 Yeah. And that's why it was such a huge hit, because it was just, there's no action. Now. There's no explosions, there's nothing. I think that's one of the things that Hollywood sometimes forgets, depending on politics and other things, is they'll make a movie like battleship. And they through every single visual effect monster action, which was all executed beautifully on a technical standpoint. But it's shallow, because there's no character development. There's no connection, where then you can watch something like Titanic, which is as action packed as you can get is a very action packed film. But the emotion that movie is all about no one talks about Oh, did you see when Titanic when when the Titanic broke in half? Did you see that scene where the water was rushing? No. It's all about why didn't she just hold on to jack there was room for both of them on that damn plank.
Paul Chitlik 43:28 You know, and it's a Romeo and Juliet story that story has been told. Yeah. Oh, and it's the central emotional relationship that makes us want to go to the movies. As we want to see explosions, we want to see fun buildings and all that stuff. But what we remember is what the central emotional relationship was all about. And that has its own structure, just like the the structure of the plot, the central plot,
Alex Ferrari 43:57 I bring up Marvel often on the show, because it's arguably one of the most one of the best examples of storytelling in the last decade done at such a high level. Regardless, if you'd like superheroes don't like superhero movies, there is something they're doing right. And arguably one of the characters since we're talking about emotional, central emotional relationship, the character of Iron Man, from the very first time we see him being this arrogant, selfish, self involved character, from the very moment we meet him to the end of endgame, where he gives the ultimate sacrifice to save the entire universe. Talk about what a complete change and they did that over 10 films and or 10 years and, and he you know, how many films was he and but he was always part of so many different, but that character arc is there in that 10 years that they were making films and it was an emotional is absolutely an emotional journey for that's why people just ball at the end of endgame people who are invested in these characters which just Yeah, oh my god it's just offered. It's it's, it's remarkable.
Paul Chitlik 45:13 Yeah, well people go to films to experience emotions. This is what Aristotle was talking about 2500 years ago, people go to cleanse themselves, to cry, to laugh, to take themselves out. To entertain in Spanish, you know the word in Spanish. It means internet, internet. Yeah, to hold yourself in the middle to add to hold, you know, it's between things. It's to get out of yourself for a moment, and to cleanse yourself and to be a different person when you walk out of it. You know, it? It, we need entertainment. We need entertainment, and we need entertainment. That's emotional. And emotional doesn't always mean crying can mean laughing, scared shouting, it could be anger, whatever it is, we don't.
Alex Ferrari 46:05 Yeah, and. And that's the safe way. And that's why during the pandemic, Netflix has exploded and streaming services exploded and we're all just clamoring to for stories. It was remarkable. It was a human experiment on a global scale of like, sorry, guys. There's barely any real big news movies out for this not last year, we've been been being promised these films, but they don't come out because of the pandemic. And that's why people like I mean, personally, I've, I've binged so many shows, I've gone into shows and just watch shows and shows and shows. And it's because that need of going through that and it is a need, it's an absolute human need to get to it love the word juice cleanse, to cleanse yourself through. Because sometimes when you're feeling down, you go to a funny movie to help you come up. If you want it, you want that thrill of a horror movie, if you're into that, like you really want that kind of like, Oh my god, I'm gonna die, that adrenaline rush, but I know nothing is gonna happen to me. It's really, it's not saying that we do important work, but we kind of want to saving lives. Let's just put ourselves in this in the scope of what we're doing here. But it is a very important job. It's very important job.
Paul Chitlik 47:21 I mean, I'm just trying to think of gfrc sylvans. Travel travels.
Alex Ferrari 47:26 Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah. persisters.
Paul Chitlik 47:29 Southern travels is about the importance of film. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. So it is important. A television is important. But what will we be doing without television right now? I mean, good. luck, I would be stuck. So we were killing each
Alex Ferrari 47:46 other. Yeah, people will be reading a lot more I would imagine. We were reading a lot more. You talk about life support for your protagonist in your book, and you kind of dive into that a bit?
Paul Chitlik 48:00 Yeah, when I say life support, that means you protect this test to have people around him. or her. I say him or her. Sometimes I just say her sometimes they just say him, but it's always him or her. or non binary. If you want to get into what we do know that the people around your your protagonist, have to have a reason to be around your protagonist. Why is this person in this film? Does this person bring out something in your central character that we need to see? Does this person tell your central character something that he or she needs to hear? So those supporting characters are really important in films? And we remember the supporting characters if they're good, and so it's something to think about when you're writing supporting characters. Number one, why are they in this scene? How are they helping move the story? are they helping our protagonist understand what he or she needs to do? How are they hindering what your protagonist needs to do so that the antagonist is a supporting character in most films. So these are people that lend reality to films, they lend depth to films, and they give the opportunity to the to the protagonist to develop as a person within the film. So the central emotional relationship is a supporting character. The antagonist is a supporting character. Even the guy in the in the clothing shop that makes the espresso in the Eddie Murphy film Beverly Hills Cop. Do you remember? Oh, of course.
Alex Ferrari 49:39 Yes. Yes. Yes. The Yeah. With Perfect Strangers guy.
Paul Chitlik 49:42 I forgot his name. Exactly. And I forgotten his name, though. Right to pachow Oh, god,
Alex Ferrari 49:46 I'm hot. Not hot. Was it hands or search? Search? Search? Search? Yes. sighs we remember him. Yeah,
Paul Chitlik 49:55 from that film.
Alex Ferrari 49:56 We do. You stands out and
Paul Chitlik 49:59 if you have characters like that, it gives a mix a wider, more interesting tapestry in your film, so that we have much more to look at much more to see much more to remember.
Alex Ferrari 50:12 Now something like surge. Let's dive into that. Just real quickly surge is a relationship with Axel Foley in that movie. I think he came back a couple times. And it wasn't just was he only in one scene or
Paul Chitlik 50:27 two scenes.
Alex Ferrari 50:28 He's interesting. I think he came in and out. But it was a funny scene, obviously. And it was it was that was a purpose of his character. But I think it was also just a I mean it, can you I'm just trying to think the reasoning why they were put to that other than just being funny that that scene, if I remember correctly, it's been a year since I've seen that movie. But that scene was moving the story very much more because it was very crucial part of who killed who and you know what that where the money was in the drugs and all that kind of stuff. And surge was kind of like a tapestry in that. But at the same time, it kind of also was another fish out of water scene because Axl had never run into a character like surge ever in his life. So it was a learning experience for for Axl, as well. As for Serge.
Paul Chitlik 51:10 It taught us something about Axl. And that's what that seems, therefore, was to open axos eyes to the possibility that there are different kinds of people in the world and that they're valuable. And even if they're strange, and they rub you the wrong way. They're valuable. So or the right way. I've never seen a person like that. So what the hell, what else is going on here? It opens his eyes. And that's the point of that person. So supporting characters can help your central character and it can help your audience to to appreciate your central character.
Alex Ferrari 51:44 Have you been watching shits Creek? Have you ever seen that show? Oh, God. It is. I just finished benching that show a little while ago. Oh my god, such a great cry. It just the characters are so wonderful. The whole town talk about supporting characters, I mean, that town, every from the from the diner, the owner of the diner to the boyfriend, that garage that they're all just so wonderfully written and performed
Paul Chitlik 52:16 by the central characters in that story changed. Oh, it was so selfish and self centered at the beginning. Yeah. And they all opened up. It's all about love. That series five epic five seasons of love.
Alex Ferrari 52:30 Yeah, it you're absolutely right. It was about and it's slowly and it was a slow process. They took that they took their time carving and chiseling those characters into who they became at the end, where when they first got there, they just want to leave. But at the end, like I don't want to go. Even when given the opportunities to go back to their lives. It's even the most self centered.
Paul Chitlik 52:55 We're open to sharing their lives with other people to helping other people to sacrifice self sacrificing. Yes.
Alex Ferrari 53:04 Yeah, it was. It was a beautifully, beautifully done. Now in the rewriting process, we were talking about descriptions. descriptions, arguably are one of the two big difficult parts of writing a screenplay dialogue and description, obviously, are the two major parts of a screenplay. Sometimes, and I heard this from one of my former guests, you want producers and readers want to see a sea of white, a sea of white on the page, as you know, as little they have to read as possible. And that's a sign of really tight, good screenwriting, as they say, how that's arguably depends on who you're talking to. Because if you look at a Tarantino script, I mean,
Paul Chitlik 53:49 it's different. It's true. But there's a problem there. Because you want to make them see the film in their heads, how you going to make them see it if you don't describe the situation. Now, a lot of people do skip over that. And some directors even cross that stuff out. And just go into the dialogue and say, well walk or create the scene using this dialogue. But you have to have some description. Now, the trick is to spread it out. So you don't have paragraphs that are 10 lines long, because people are not going to read it, it's too black. So you have a paragraph that's two or three lines long, or maybe one line long, or maybe one word long. You can do that. And that's a good idea. And then some dialog and then sometimes you don't want to have page after page after page of nothing but dialog either because that will say Well, what's going on what's happening?
Alex Ferrari 54:44 Unless Unless your name is Tarantino then you can do whatever
Paul Chitlik 54:46 well. You can have, you know 15 minutes seems to be exactly the scene in the downstairs in the restaurant where
Alex Ferrari 54:56 they're all glorious bastards. Yeah. Oh
Paul Chitlik 54:58 yeah. Glorious bastard. I mean, oh my God, what a long 22 minutes I believe
Alex Ferrari 55:04 the opening starts opening just the opening sequence at that movie is a masterclass. I mean, yes. Oh, Jesus. All right.
Paul Chitlik 55:13 And the page, here's the difficult thing you have to create, you have to write visually. And they tell you this all the time. And they looking for this all the time. So that means you have to have description. But on the other hand, people don't like to read description. So what do you do, right? So you have to write it, you have to sneak it in there. That's why I tell my people not to write more than four lines at a time in description, six at the most, if you have to, you have to break it up into shops to make it look wide to make it easier to read, so that your eyes go down the page faster. So if you break it into shots, for example, if I'm writing about your, your office right here, I might do a wide shot on the office. And I would say Alex is sitting in his office, I don't have to describe every part of your office. But if I want to do something specific about your office, I would say, well, there's a figure of Yoda wearing a cap in the corner. But I would say I put that on its own line, Yoda and I would capitalize it, Yoda. And then I would skip a line is standing wearing an overcoat and a cap. So we would direct the readers eye to that. So we would direct the reader to see that in his or her head. And then we would do some dialogue. And then we will get back to some other part of the room.
Alex Ferrari 56:36 Isn't that a lot of a lot of times screenwriters, when they're writing screenplays, they try to do it like a novel. So novelists extremely, you know, writing about my office, let's say as an example, can go into the detail of Yoda and the Lord like the the lanyards around his neck and, and the posters on the wall and the, the sculptures in the back and, and they could go into this. They could write a page just on this office if they felt like but a lot of screenwriters do that. And I've seen screenplays do that, that they write 6789 lines explaining this room, unless the room itself is the central character. And even then you wouldn't do that. You just don't do that? No,
Paul Chitlik 57:21 I tell my students, for example, if you're writing about a college classroom, all you have to say is his college classroom. That's all you have to say. People are gonna figure it out. Yeah,
Alex Ferrari 57:31 unless it's a specific unless it's a specific thing that you need to do. So like in goodwill hunting, I doubt that they went into a great amount of detail in the in the hallway that that will does. The thing is there's a chalkboard on it. I'm sure it was just very simple. And it wasn't like this long, like in use in what is it MIT, the hallways are really built, you know, they drip with, with brick on the wall and no one cares. It's a whole it's a it's a hallway, guys. It's a hallway.
Paul Chitlik 58:02 Now, if there's something important in that hallway for something important in the classroom, it's a classroom setup for COVID 919. Yeah, so then we would see a different hallway. I mean, we different classroom. If it's a classroom set up for people with wheelchairs, we will see a different classroom. So if it's important you write it, you have to remember that everything that you want to see in the screen. That's important. You have to write in your screenplay, write everything that's not important that ever the people deal with it. And they'll fill it out. Same thing goes for the wardrobe.
Alex Ferrari 58:35 Oh, yeah, took it,
Paul Chitlik 58:36 you don't have to describe all the wardrobe. I can, I can just say, college students. And I don't have to describe what they're wearing. Everybody knows what college student wears. However, if I describe a college student who's non binary, and is wearing sweatshirt, and green, tennis shoes, and has purple hair, then that's important. I want to write that
Alex Ferrari 58:58 it's a characters like this characters dressed like he stuck in the 80s. That's all you need to know.
Paul Chitlik 59:03 That's exactly it. You don't have to say big here, big, big shoulder.
Alex Ferrari 59:08 Because that's not because I promise you, whatever you write will not be on the screen. If you go into great detail in what that person is wearing on your script, I promise you wardrobe and the director and the actor will all have their say on how that actors is I mean, unless this is a completely central part of the story, or the character or something in the wardrobe is magical. That case carries the story forward, then write it like you said, if it's important to the story, write it If not, you automatically get like all that out of a scene from the 90s out if they look like they just walked off the front set. You're done. You know exactly where that you are.
Paul Chitlik 59:45 Yeah, it's all about being very specific, and letting people create the image in their own head.
Alex Ferrari 59:51 Now, one of the things you talked about in your book, which I found interesting is that you discuss how to surprise the reader by Going outside the rules? Do you have any advice on how to do that? Because it's very similar to like, like we were saying, with Michelangelo, I just took away the stuff that wasn't supposed to be there. It's it's easy to say that said, Yeah, just work around the rules and surprise your character. How do you do that? We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.
Paul Chitlik 1:00:25 Well, that is that is a tough question. Because that has, you have to surprise yourself. Right? When you're writing, you have to say, what would this character do? That I wouldn't expect? But that, once I see it makes sense, because I know who that character is. So that's a hard thing to do. For example, let's say that your character is a police officer. And you would expect that character to enter a crime scene and do something, you know, examine the the body, look at the where the bullets are, see the blood, but you wouldn't expect that person to go down and put their finger in the blood. That would make sense, if they want to smell it, do something that's a little bit out of the ordinary. But that makes sense from this character's point of view. So that's harder to say, here's what you have to do. There's no,
Alex Ferrari 1:01:25 it's case by case. Yeah, it's a case by case basis, but something like arguably one of the best written shows in history, in my opinion, Breaking Bad. What Vince Gilligan did, I remember the character of Hank, the, the DEA agent, who had the biggest kingpin under his nose his entire time, he had a collection of rocks like he collected he was, I forgot what the term is when you collect rocks, like, Yeah, but anyway, he was really into rocks. And just like, that's really interesting. And then you start digging into that in your mind, like, why did he? Like, why did they throw that in there? But it keeps it interesting. It completely is outside of what you think of as a DEA agent.
Paul Chitlik 1:02:09 Right? It's something to give the character more depth.
Alex Ferrari 1:02:11 Something Yeah,
Paul Chitlik 1:02:12 yeah, we don't want to have a two dimensional character. So every characters got something a little bit different. I mean, I've never met a person that didn't have something unusual about them. One of the questions I asked about my students in the first day of classes, what is your secret talent, and they, they almost always come up with something weird. And it's very, it could be, you know, they can make their bed, they can bend their finger back to their elbow, or they can touch their nose with their tongue. Or they can play the violin. And, or they can do a magic trick. I had them do it in the class. And that gives us depth, but it's also something I do in class to teach people how to write a character. characters will have these things.
Alex Ferrari 1:02:57 That's why that's why a lot of my listeners, always freak out. When I tell when I've mentioned that a few times on my shows. I was like, Yeah, I used to own an olive oil and vinegar gourmet shop in Los Angeles. And they're like, what, like, Where did that come from? I'm like, Oh, yeah, if you need to know about olive oil, I can tell you how to pick a proper olive oil, how to sip it, how to taste it, how to buy it, you know, what's a good 18 year aged balsamic? And they're like, what is that about? Like? It's so that's like a little like, nobody would ever think that I owned the largest olive oil and vinegar tasting shop in Los Angeles in Studio City. For three years.
Paul Chitlik 1:03:35 I think I was there.
Alex Ferrari 1:03:37 Which one was it was in studio sitting right by Laurel Canyon. Yeah.
Paul Chitlik 1:03:40 Yeah. Yeah,
Alex Ferrari 1:03:40 that was my shop.
Paul Chitlik 1:03:41 I can't remember that. But yeah. I don't know if you can see this in my I'm trying to see if you see that. No, not there. Look at it. I've got a circuit. I have a poster on the wall of circus Vargas. Here's a little background.
Alex Ferrari 1:03:59 I see I
Paul Chitlik 1:03:59 see it in the reflection. Right behind you see reflection. I worked as a as a Rasht about in circus Vargas. What's the rest about? Rest about is the kind of guy that does everything. If I set up to 10 I put in the seat so you work you ran away with the circus is what you saw, I ran away with the circus. And there you go. Alright, so that's a part of me that most people don't know. But there's a little bit of an interesting thing. Now why would I bring that up in a movie? Maybe to show that I'm, I'm a small person. But by small I mean, I'm five foot six. But I'm strong. That was the hardest work I've ever done in my life. The first day I did it, I had blisters all over my hands. The second day I did it. I was wearing gloves, leather gloves that tour. That's how strong that's how tough the work is. So and I can describe stuff about the circus. Now that leads me to something else I we haven't talked about. And that's research. Hmm, yes. And I see this all the time. In my Didn't my students do? One of my students is writing about San Francisco in the 60s. Now I was there. So I know it. And I know what they said. And I know what they did. And they don't know. And I also had a student once, who was writing about Spain in the 1600s. And she was having a messenger, come to the door of a noble woman. Now, first of all, the noble woman answered the door, that would never happen. Second of all, the messenger was delivering a telegram in the 16th century, now they would,
Alex Ferrari 1:05:36 not so much, yeah, didn't get an email. They didn't get text. No, I didn't get that.
Paul Chitlik 1:05:41 So I have my people do research. And research gives depth to the depth to the characters. So it's an important part of your writing. If you're writing about something that you're not completely familiar with, you have to do the research. You can't
Alex Ferrari 1:05:58 write about what you don't know. It's so funny, because when I wrote a script that I had a short film that I wrote about a current carnivals, Carnival workers carnies, and I interviewed a carny. And I got a got what a carny actually didn't in my if you watch my film, you see things you've never seen him. Because no one had gone that deep into like the after hours of what a carny does and things like that. And it was fascinating as well. I'm just writing down I was like, Oh, this is all gold. He's just giving me gold, gold gold as I was interviewing them. And it's, it's amazing. If you look at some of it, like Michael Mann, I know does and it's sane amount of research. Oh, he writes, I mean, he's legendary for his research. Like he handed Jamie Foxx for collateral, like a binder, like this is where your character lives. This is his history. This is where he went to school stuff that will never ever, ever see the screen. But it gives so much depth to those characters. It's remarkable.
Paul Chitlik 1:06:55 That's one of the first steps I do have my students do is to write biographies of the main characters. And in those biographies, we go into depth where they were born, how many people were in their family, what kind of a family was it? what language they speak, what what school? Did they go to? How many years did they go to school, when they study what the Father do for a living with their mother do with their, maybe they had two fathers, maybe they had to mothers, maybe they were brought up by the grandchildren of their grandparents. All these things are important, the deeper you get into the character, the better you're going to write to character. The deeper you get into a situation, the better you can write that situation. So research of your character development and character is important in research into the media that your characters in is extremely important.
Alex Ferrari 1:07:45 And if you're in the rewriting process, and you go into a scene or you see a character's, you know, arc and stuff, like it's not working, maybe even during the rewriting process, you will go You know what, let me let me go into what like whatever they're, let's say, they're Carnival workers. And you're like, you know what I there's, it seems were way too one dimensional. You go do research, and then you go back into the rewriting process. And then you start adding all the nuance, as well. So research can be at the beginning, and could also be there for life support or helping revive the the patient if you will.
Paul Chitlik 1:08:18 Exactly, exactly. Now, we're getting back to the doctor analogy, what we're doing with the script,
Alex Ferrari 1:08:24 right, exactly, exactly. Now, I'm gonna ask you a few questions. I asked all of my guests. What are three screenplays every screenwriter should read? Well, I
Paul Chitlik 1:08:36 think every screenwriter should read
Groundhog
Alex Ferrari 1:08:40 Day. For one masterpiece.
Paul Chitlik 1:08:43 It's a masterpiece. Shakespeare in Love is another one great script. Shakespearean love was good. There's an interesting structure. You can lay the seven points on top of that, but it's a 5x structure. Because Shakespeare's plays were five acts now. If you look at that screenplay, you'll see five acts. And I think that's very important. Um, let me see what else what I would do I would recommend I find Inglorious Basterds was a good one.
Alex Ferrari 1:09:10 But like, even so, just to touch on Tarantino, for a second, if you look at Pulp Fiction, which is completely all over the place, story wise, the storylines it's not, it's not a coherent story when you know from beginning to end, if you still lay the points down, um, they're there. They're there. And that's the brilliance of that script. Because even though the character is in a completely different place in the timeline of the story, in the timeline of the script, it's still following that structure. And that is the brilliance of, of pulp fiction. Am I correct?
Paul Chitlik 1:09:44 Yes, I'm trying to remember this another screenplay I recommend and suddenly I can't remember the name of it. It's
memoria, memoria.
What is the one it starts backwards? Oh,
Alex Ferrari 1:09:55 momento momento. momento. Noland Norman's momento. Yeah, yeah.
Paul Chitlik 1:10:00 Also, that's very interesting screenplay because it's told in reverse order. But, but the the color, the thing that's in color is in reverse order, the stuff that's in black and white is in forward order. Both of those stories have seven points.
Alex Ferrari 1:10:17 It's the same. Now that's another. That's another script that you just him and his brother wrote that and you're just sitting there like, I just, you know, that's but that's Nolan. I mean, now, Nolan is who he is. But I mean, just absolutely brilliant. Great, great, great scripts. Now, what advice would you give a screenwriter trying to break into the business today?
Paul Chitlik 1:10:37 That's the hardest question there is, I would say, write and then write some more. And I would say, then write some more and rewrite it. So you have to have, at least if you're a screenwriter or a television writer, you have to have at least three original screenplays ready to go in preferably in three different genres, I would say, because you never know what people are going to be looking for. And right from your heart, right? Something you really know, don't write something about 17th century Spain, if you don't know it, because it's not going to work, right? Something you really know. And put your heart into it. And then rewrite it a couple of times, and then rewrite it a couple more times. And then start asking around and going to events. Well, when when we can virtual virtual events, virtual virtual, good, as many virtual events as you can. But as soon as we can go to real live events, go to real live events and start talking to people. And it doesn't matter who it is. You can go to a Screen Actors Guild event and talk to a screen actor. You can go to the Directors Guild event and talk to a costumer, you can go to a Writers Guild event and talk to somebody that is a first ad. They all know people you know who the best people to talk to our makeup and wardrobe people. Because the best thing to do for a new screenwriter is to get a star attached to it. And who talks to stars more than wardrobe people and makeup people. Nobody. So if you can talk to a makeup person and say so what do you been working on? And I'll tell you what, I've been working on shits Creek. Really? What? Would you be comfortable reading a script I have that I think Daniel lovies be really good for? Well, yeah, sure, why not? And they read it and then say, yeah, I think that'd be great in this.
Alex Ferrari 1:12:39 Then McCollum wrote to me. Yeah, I'll call him real quick. Yeah,
Paul Chitlik 1:12:42 I call because they're the people that know that can call them. Now you can talk to agents and managers and do the same thing. But I think talk to the craftspeople you can even call the cinematographer and talk to cinematographer or talk to a props person. Props persons know that the actors too.
Alex Ferrari 1:13:01 Oh, yeah. Yeah, some of my first big I got an academy nominated actor because my dp worked with them on a film. And he just called them up. And that's how it works. It works. It was it was it's pretty, it's you're absolutely right. One of the best pieces of advice on screenwriting I ever got was from a screenwriter, the screenwriter of Fight Club, when I asked him that question, and he said, All the best, here's what you need to do sit down, you write a script. When you're done with that script. Don't rewrite it, take it put another drawer, start writing a script number two, when you're done with that script, take it put in a drawer, start writing script number three. When you're done with script number three, go back to script one, number one, and start rewriting it. Because at that time you have already you've already become a much better writer.
Paul Chitlik 1:13:45 Exactly. He's totally right. He's totally right.
Alex Ferrari 1:13:48 The more you write, the better you write. Absolutely. Now what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?
Paul Chitlik 1:13:57 Wow, film industry or life on film industry is when you keep my mouth shut when you talk.
Alex Ferrari 1:14:04 Great advice.
Paul Chitlik 1:14:07 And in life that applies. Oh, yeah, preach
Alex Ferrari 1:14:10 my friend preach. Absolutely true. Absolutely. God, the stuff that came out of my mouth when I was in my 20s, I would just be like to shut just shut up. It's not about you. It's not about you. Please just shut up. And
Paul Chitlik 1:14:26 it's about making the product.
Alex Ferrari 1:14:29 Yeah, it's about making it's about making that that show that movie, whatever you're working, making it better. Absolutely. That's your job. And where can people find out more about you and your work and your book?
Paul Chitlik 1:14:41 Well, I'm over Google, you can always Google me. imdb. You can go to WP comm which is Michael we see productions.com they have all the books that I've written on screenwriting that's only two but they also have a ton of books. about making films. I think it's the best film publishing house there is. And they work with people. So if you have an idea for a book, those are people to talk to. To find out more about me, I just go on the web. I'm there. I'm all over the place,
Alex Ferrari 1:15:19 not hard to find not hard to find. And I'll put all that information in the show notes. But it is thank you so much for being on the show. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you, my friend.
Paul Chitlik 1:15:27 It's really been fun. I enjoyed it. Thank you.
Alex Ferrari 1:15:31 I want to thank Paul for coming on the show and dropping those knowledge bombs on the tribe. Thank you again, Paul. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, including how to get his his book rewrite a step by step guide to strengthening structure, characters, and drama in your screenplay, head over to the show notes at bulletproof screenwriting.tv forward slash 113. And guys, if you haven't already, head over to screenwriting podcast comm subscribe and leave a good review for the show. It really helps us out a lot. Thank you again for listening guys. As always, keep on writing, no matter what. I'll talk to you soon.
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A Logline: You’ve just finished writing your script and a friend puts you in touch with a film producer looking for her next project. During your conversation with the producer, she asks you,
“What’s the logline?”
Your insides melt because even though you may know what a logline is, you never bothered to create one after writing the script — and even more importantly before writing it. Has this happened to you? Well, it happened to me in a similar manner when I began as a screenwriter.
In my previous article (Lessons Learned From Winning A Screenwriting Competition) I briefly mentioned the value of a logline. In this article, I’ll go into what they are, how to generate them, and how they can help your script before you even write it.
A logline is a one-sentence (sometimes two) description of what your script is about. The ideal logline contains within the sentence who the protagonist is (“are” if dealing with a duo or team); the major conflict that changes the protagonist’s state from ordinary to extraordinary; the antagonist or antagonistic force; what the protagonist must do to overcome and achieve his / her (or a team) goal; and the stakes involved to achieve that goal.
The following is an example of a logline for Mad Max: Fury Road:
When a burnt out loner of a post-apocalyptic wasteland escapes from a tyrannical warlord and his marauding clan, he must work together with a defecting member of the clan and the warlord’s wives to find sanctuary in a chase to the death.
In the sentence we establish who the protagonist is — burnt out loner (Max). What the conflict is and what he needs to do to overcome it — he must escape. Who the antagonist is — the tyrannical warlord and his marauding clan (Immortan Joe and the War Boys). The protagonist’s goal — find sanctuary. What are the stakes — a chase to the death.
That’s essentially the concept of the movie in one sentence. But if you look closely you’ll notice that within that logline is the suggestion of a character arc: a burnt-out loner… must work together with a defecting clan member (Imperator Furiosa) and the warlord’s wives (The Five Wives). Within one sentence, we establish the main plot of the story and the hero’s inner journey!
So why is a logline so important?
Firstly, it’s important from the standpoint of writing your own script. Creating a logline for your story before you write your script will keep you on track. It reminds you of the story you are setting out to write, and once it’s written acts as a litmus test to see if, in fact, that is the story you ended up telling rather than treading off-road down another unrelated story path.
The second reason why it’s important is that if you were to pitch your story to that film producer or movie exec in an elevator, within the breadth of a sentence, you clearly and concisely grab his or her attention with one masterstroke.
To construct a logline I typically start with the word “when” in a subordinate clause. “When” suggests the first turning point (major conflict) that takes you from Act 1 into Act 2. In the independent clause that follows you include an action verb (work, fight, run, etc) which describes what the protagonist needs to proactively do against some opposing force to achieve the goal of the main plot.
It even works if your script is a character-driven story like the film Black Swan:
When a dancer gets the coveted lead part in the ballet production of Swan Lake, she must fight to retain her sanity or lose herself forever.
How you can tell that this is a logline for a character-driven story is that the protagonist’s goal isn’t an outward achievement such as completing the opening night performance (which is in the story; however, not the main emphasis), but an internalized battle for her to determine what is real and what is just a mad hallucination.
If you have written a script without the aid of a logline, it’s never too late to come up with one. You just might find it will help if and when you do that rewrite.
David R. Flores is a writer and artist (@sicmonkie) based in Los Angeles. He is the creator of the comic book series Dead Future King published by Alterna Comics and Golden Apple Books. Website: www.davidrflores.com
Today on the show we have author Pamela Jaye Smith. She is is a mythologist, international consultant-speaker, and award-winning writer-producer-director with 30+ years in features, TV, music videos, commercials, documentaries, web series, corporate and military films. She has worked at major studios and with wildly independent companies in Hollywood and around the world, always enjoying the process of bringing creative ideas to worldwide screens.
Credits include Fox, Disney, Paramount, Microsoft, Universal, RAI-TV Rome, UCLA, USC Film School, American Film Institute, Women in Film, Natl. Film Institute of Denmark, LA and Marseille and Roma WebFests, Romance Writers of America, Children’s Book Writers LA, and many media festivals and
Pamela founded MYTHWORKS a consulting and information resource offering Applied Mythology for individuals, organizations, and the media arts. She teaches and consults on fiction and non-fiction, writes for others, coaches writers and actors, and helps individuals discover and use their personal archetypes.
Smith authored “SHOW ME THE LOVE: All Kinds of Love for All Kinds of Stories”, “INNER DRIVES: How to Write and Create Characters Using the [chakras] 8 Classic Centers of Motivation”, “SYMBOLS.IMAGES.CODES: The Secret Language of Meaning in Media”, and “BEYOND THE HERO’S JOURNEY: Other Powerful Mythic Themes”.
She was the mythologist interviewed on Fox’s ICE AGE: CONTINENTAL DRIFT Special Features and has appeared on national TV and radio programs as a mythology expert, including the “Forbidden Secrets” TV series. She was on-camera spokesperson for Microsoft’s “Age of Mythology” on-line computer game and designed their “Which God Are You?” quiz.
Alex Ferrari 2:05 Now guys today on the show, we have author, Pamela J. Smith, and she is the writer of the book, power of the dark side, creating great villains, dangerous situations, and dramatic conflict. And we dive into the dark side of characters, specifically, villains, anti heroes, and how you can better craft a good bad guy for your story. So without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Pamela J. Smith. I'd like to welcome the show Pamela J. Smith. How you doing Pamela?
Pamela Jaye Smith 2:46 Oh, very well, thank you. I'm pleased to be invited and I'm very much looking forward to our conversation.
Alex Ferrari 2:51 Yes, me as well. I am a fan of the work you do. And I reached out to you because I wanted to talk about your your remarkable book power of the dark side creating villains and, and drama and I forgot the rest of the title. But power of the dark side caught my eye as everyone knows that I have a giant Yoda sitting behind me in my office. It is not a movie. This by the way, everyone listening, it's not going to be a Star Wars only show, I promise you. But the concept of the dark side which George Lucas, so eloquently put back in 1977 is is something that is in the Zeitgeist without question. So I wanted to kind of delve into great villains and the dark side of story and things like that. But before we get started, how did you get into the business?
Pamela Jaye Smith 3:38 Well, as a tall girl in Texas, I started out as a model, because that's what you do if you're tall in Texas. And I've been doing modeling and some TV commercials and tried a little bit of acting. But it soon became painfully obvious. I was not even not talented. I was minus talented when it came back. And a friend advised me get behind the camera as fast as you can. And why don't you go to film school. And at the time at UT Austin, I was studying English and Latin. And then I got into the film program, started studying film and just loved it and had a great time and learned so much.
Alex Ferrari 4:20 So then how did you get into the whole, you know, story side of the business?
Pamela Jaye Smith 4:27 Well, I'd always been a writer, actually, my first writing commission was in the fourth grade. And this girl a few years older than me asked me to write a little love story for a big rollerskating party we were all going to. And it wasn't so much that she said I'll pay you as much as I won't beat you up if you write the story.
Alex Ferrari 4:50 Payment payment has been
Pamela Jaye Smith 4:51 Yeah, I'll write it anyway. But I've always been interested in stories my parents read to us and we were reading at a bear young age. And I started writing and just always enjoyed it and made my way through school in music and English for the purpose on both of those. So it was just a natural progression.
Alex Ferrari 5:14 So in your book power to Darkside, you you really dive into what is a great villain what what makes a great villain?
Pamela Jaye Smith 5:24 To me, it's a person that we can both have curiosity about and anathema towards. And so it's one thing to be seduced by somebody who's a little rakish and doing a little, you know, God, it's kind of halfway criminal maybe what do you think that's not necessarily villainous? To me, the villain is the person who poses actual real danger of some time, and can be mortal danger, like the planet killing Darth Vader and the Death Star. Or it can be that kind of danger that seduces you into doing things that you may know are not right. But you just kind of can't help yourself because you're being drawn into it. And then it turns you, but I don't think we need to have a total identification with a villain. In fact, I think less is probably more in that instance, because otherwise, you're only speaking to the serial killers.
Alex Ferrari 6:35 Right? Right. So like with there's, I mean, I'm always fascinated by villains. I mean, Hannibal Lecter is an amazing villain that you, you forget that he's a cannibal, that he's a murderous cannibal. And yet, he is so charming. And so disarming, that you will have a kiante and some fava beans with him. And you won't even you'd be like, Oh, are you eating my hand? Oh, it's fine animal. You know, it's it's it's really remarkable. He was so not only well written, but so well performed by Anthony Hopkins. That's a villain that pops into your head that's like that. It's the ducted villain that truly makes you forget. And he's not hiding who he is. It's not like, Oh, you discover he's a cannibalistic murder? No,it's right up front. The first time you hear his name, it's associated with murder and cannibalism, and yet, you you're rooting for him in that movie in the first movie.
Pamela Jaye Smith 7:40 That's brilliant writing. And it's I think it's something to strive for that, that push pull of the lure of the dark side. And still to hold that that reticence or tablet, the registers come back in and you know, you've gone too many steps down that wrong path. But it's a very interesting scale. I would say also, you know, my kit might just about anything and story or just about anything in life, there's a spectrum. And so you've got the light, dark side, the light side of the dark, where you've got the comedic villains, right? And then you've got those more the the Hannibal and the Darth Vader. All those people too out of history that you think, captured so many imaginations and got so many people to follow them. What was it? What was that look? So I just I've always found that really fascinating. And that's part of what stirred my impetus to write the book was to say, how these how these things happen, and why and what do we do about it?
Alex Ferrari 8:54 Yeah, like so how does like a villain, you know, who, again, a villain is all perspective. And in history, let's talk about history. Not cinema for a second, but in history, it's about perspective. So Napoleon, depending on what side of the fence you're on, he's either a hero or a villain. Unfortunately, someone like Hitler, depending on what side of the fence you are on. That's it's all about perspective. How does someone seduce a nation is like seducing one or two characters seducing a group, but to seduce a nation even these cults that you saw like I mean, I forgot the names of budget and Jim Jones is the one that brings true as right now off the top of my head. He seduced I don't know hundreds of people to fly down to South America and then essentially drink Kool Aid spoiler alert, drink poisoned Kool Aid and, and commit suicide. So that's that kind of villain, but then to have the kind of villain that can literally change the minds of The majority of a nation to do just just crazy, insane, destructive, disgusting things. What is it about? You know that if we could study someone like Napoleon or Hitler or Mussolini, or you know, all the, you know, all these these insane villains in history? What could we take from those stories and maybe apply them to a story that we're writing with a really bad guy?
Pamela Jaye Smith 10:32 Okay, I think we have to back up a few steps to talk about. So in evolutionary psychology, what we see is that, and we find this in Maslow's pyramid of needs, you find it in the chakra system, the very lowest point for any living creature is survival. That's your prime directive is to survive. So if someone gets you into a fearsome situation, and then offers you salvation from it, then you are more likely to follow them via a religion that makes you afraid of this particular sin or that particular horrible the Manichaean the dark the light side. I came across an interesting thing in a in a book about philosophy and humor, and they said, you can tell a lot about a religion by what is the worst thing you can do in it. And for Catholics, it's missing mass. For Baptists, it's dancing. And for Episcopalians, it's using your salad fork on the desert. Yeah, yeah, tapping into the fear of a nation tapping into people's concerns for their own livelihood is off, and particularly if they've been defeated, or they're marginalized. And then they are fearful and you come along and you say, it's not your fault. It's their fault.
Alex Ferrari 12:19 And there you go. And we're off and running, and we're off and running, as they say. And you can kind of see that and you can kind of see that as a pattern. Throughout history, all of those dictators that we kind of talked about did that to rise to power, once they got to power is a different conversation. They all did different things to maintain power, or lose power or so on. But to rise to that power. I mean, Hitler specifically did exactly that. Yeah, he villainized a group of people and said, Do you guys, I feel everybody's pain, you guys. It's not your fault. It's their fault. And I'm gonna bring us back to our glory. And, and that was it.
Pamela Jaye Smith 13:01 Yeah, and you see that also in some, a couple of recent historical events in the Khmer Rouge with pol pot. And then in the Cultural Revolution in China with now, you also had not only this fear, people were, in many cases starving, they were poverty stricken. But also there was a comparison of these people are better off than you why. And so then you start finding that disparity between the value systems and the work of in a system. The thinkers, the creatives, and those who aren't. And often those who aren't, they really are, they just haven't been given the opportunity to do so. So that's when you start finding. First we go in and we kill all the thinkers, we kill all the artists, we burn all the books. And you can get a lot of people who don't have access to those things to go after the elites. It's a very, very old system of social manipulation.
Alex Ferrari 14:10 So the old I mean, one of the oldest, I don't think he's the oldest but one of the oldest, original Bad Boys, if you will, is the devil. You know, he is the original villain and one of the original villains I think, I think the Epic of Gilgamesh might have had another villain. There might have been a couple other ones prior to the devil, but he is the devil's got a great PR firm. I mean, he's been, he is Wow, we all know about the devil. What makes and especially in cinema, and in story in general, but in cinema, the devil is so seductive and attractive, what makes that kind of villain, so attractive to people?
Pamela Jaye Smith 14:55 Okay, I think a couple of things. One is the power that they hold. If you are aligned with the devil, then you share it that power. And you will get those goodies and a lot of humans are more focused on it well is that line from Postcards from the Edge with Carrie Fisher says Instagram gratification takes too long. So, you know, most of us want what we want. We want it now. And it's okay if there's a big balloon payment at the end. Because who knows? There may not be this could go on forever.
Alex Ferrari 15:34 Oh, yes. The stock markets are are infamous for that. infamous for that, isn't it that you heard you heard that story about GameStop that just came out today? If everyone listening a bunch of Reddit investors are basically hijacking the Wall Street, the stock market. It is fascinating to watch. And it actually does show what the realities of the stock market is. It's essentially a game in many, many, many ways all about perspective and, and talk about villains. I mean, I mean, I mean, Wall Street's just, I just watched a documentary on Ivan Boesky. And I was just like, Oh, my God, Michael Milken from the 80s. And what they these guys did. I mean, it's, it's fascinating. So I do love. I love the, the idea of the power aspect of villains because villains generally, generally not always have a power. And it could be a grand power. Or it could be Buffalo Bill, in Silence of the Lambs, which is just power over. Its Vic his victim. I mean, there is a sense of power. There's never me, correct me if I'm wrong. Are there villains who they can't be weaker, they have to be more powerful than whoever they're going against, or at least a perceived power. Is that is that fair?
Pamela Jaye Smith 17:01 I think that's absolutely fair. What it seems to me is indeed, fulfilling can appear weak. turned back, it's a trap. Oh, you know, it's like, you're limping along and come help me and, and, okay, now that you're here,
Alex Ferrari 17:21 right, exactly. So there's always so the villain, so everyone listening, the villain always has to be at least a bit more powerful than whoever they're going up against. And if there isn't, then if you're if your hero is obviously stronger than the villain, then it's a weak story. Because then what's the point? I mean, if I could just beat you up, it's like, if I'm the good guy, and the bad guys, a seven year old girl with a spoon, who's really bad and done bad stuff. Obviously, I'm gonna be able to that's why like, like films like Chucky always used to bother me, I'm like, it's a doll. It's a blanket over it, justjust kick it. It's like three feet tall, and it's a doll has no magical powers. Just kick it, you know? But, but then, you know, and that's why it's like, so difficult to write for characters. Who are Gods like Superman? Like, you know, Zeus and and even going back to, to the gods, it was difficult to, to write stories around something that's like Superman is a perfect example. It's almost impossible to write really good Superman stories, because he's Superman. So you need to have someone bigger than Superman, which is hard, or at least equal to, and it's difficult to do. That's why it's just so hard sometimes to write for those kinds of, of heroes. Do you agree?
Pamela Jaye Smith 18:54 Absolutely. That's why you need kryptonite.
Alex Ferrari 18:57 You need something to weaken them,
Pamela Jaye Smith 18:59 you need something to weaken them if they are a strong person. And whether it is their emotional attachment to something, whether it's physically being physically debilitated by the kryptonite, whatever that is. Absolutely. And that, that balance, not equity, that balance that keeps shifting between the villain and the hero, the protagonist and the antagonist. You don't want even that you want it real close, so that you can get the ups and the downs that make a story interesting.
Alex Ferrari 19:34 The one Um, there's two villains that I have in my head that I found to be really complex because they have a point of view. And I've always found that villains with points of views make the best villains. So someone like Thanos from the Marvel, the Marvel Universe, who was so strong, so powerful, it literally took every superhero to defeat the little like all of them to defeat this guy. That's how powerful he was his point of view, was it wrong, he in the sense of the universe is overcrowded, we there's not enough resources to go around. Something has to change. Now that right there is a conversation starter, where the conversation ends, is I'm going to now destroy half the population in the universe with a flick of my finger, or snap of my finger. That's where that's where he turned that. So it was just his perspective that his perspective was, you can agree with him, like, Yeah, dude, there's a problem. But I don't agree with the way you're doing it. And that makes that villain so good. And Black Panther was another villain killmonger his he was like, my life was stolen from me. You got it. And you completely identify and are empathetic to him. Now how he's trying to take power and doing it what is wrong, but yet you feel for him as opposed to the early days of Cinema of silent cinema where you had the guy twisting the mustache on the railroad. And that was this is one dimension as far as a villain is concerned,
Pamela Jaye Smith 21:22 yes, yes. Much more fascinating when there is a this may not be the right combination of words, but misguided altruism. Yeah. Yeah, the world would be better if and then what you pointed out, but your methodology, dude, you gotta work on that.
Alex Ferrari 21:45 Yeah, I get you. There's maybe we could put some programs in place, but the snapping of the finger and killing, killing everybody, half of everybody. It's a bit. It's a bit extreme, sir. I get it. I get it. Yeah, it's. But I always, I always found that so fascinating, because that that character, arguably was in one of the biggest movies of all time. And they built that villain up over a course of a decade, just building up slowly and slowly and slowly, and a crescendo in the end in the end game, which is why people watch that end sequence in that movie. And just, I heard I mean, I was in the theater, back when you could go to theaters. You You heard just the emotional release of what they had been doing. And, and also, on the opposite side of that, did you ever watch The Walking Dead?
Pamela Jaye Smith 22:38 Um, maybe one episode
Alex Ferrari 22:41 in the show. So in the in the show, the main antagonist of the show, and it's generally had, there were some antagonists that show up like bad guys, official villains. But for a little while, the main villain was zombies were kind of just like the threat. And survival was essentially the, what they were fighting, they were just fighting the threat and there was no main bad guy, then a few season then they got, you know, the governor who's, who's really great, great, complex, bad guy. And but then they brought in this character named neguin. And neguin was so overpowering. That it ruined the show for me, because I stopped watching after watching six years, because the villain did not give the heroes a win, ever. Even if you're fighting a villain that's so powerful, you got to be able to get a punch in for like 10 episodes. They were just beating and beaten and beaten and never gave them a moment's breath. And it was so disheartening for you to watch your heroes get beaten like that. There was no I think the writing suffered so bad and and the show, the show started to completely go down. It wasn't just me, everyone got tired of it. And it just now it's gone. I think it's gone. Or it's about to go away completely. Because it just they just ruined it with that as they jumped the shark, as they say, but it was, but it was the villain that causes that villain was so overpowering. And they just, they never gave them a win to like towards the end of the season. But by that time you were so exhausted. You're just like, it's I'm over. I'm done.
Pamela Jaye Smith 24:26 Yeah, you're pointing out a good example of once again, that balance that needs to be there. And when the imbalance is too overwhelming. You get what you just were talking about. If people haven't seen it, there's a charmingly funny, or cartoon video. It's like Godzilla vs. Bambi just clicked. Last like 10 seconds. Maybe it's just the point.
Alex Ferrari 24:55 I think I saw it in the theater. I saw that in the theater when it came. I think it was Like in the 70s, or 80s, when that came out, but for everyone, for everyone listening, this is basically the this is basically the short. It's Bambi versus Godzilla. And you see Bambi just sitting there eating, eating, just like La la la. And then all of a sudden Godzilla his foot comes and stops at the end. That's it. Brilliant. Brilliant. Well, your point, your point in that story?
Pamela Jaye Smith 25:28 Well, yeah, once again, if it's too imbalanced, it doesn't work. Just like a Super Bowl game. You're not gonna put the Chiefs against the bell heart, Texas varsity football team, right? No, you have to have somewhat evenly matched or, you know, put the heavyweight against the flyweight. And I think even now, let's talk about waging bets. If there's not some kind of odds to be had, it's boring. It's boring. And it's boring. And on both on both sides. So if you have
Alex Ferrari 26:03 a hero that constantly is beating on the villain, like why am I watching this, this is just abusive. And if the villains constantly beating on the hero, and there's no opportunity for a comeback, like for something to happen, then it's then it doesn't work. So that's why rocky works so well as not only a movie but as a series, with a couple of exceptions in that series, is were just a couple. But it was it was it was essentially what you were saying the Chiefs versus the varsity football team from your high school was rocky Glen against Apollo, he was the heavyweight champion of well, this guy was a, you know, a nice knee breaker, you know, a bump. And, but those odds were that's why that is that will resonate forever. Because it's just the ultimate comeback story. And we if we go back to Star Wars, the rebels against the Death Star. Yes. I mean, it's one little dude in it in a hole in the hall, flying through a thread through a cavern and shoots one little missile into one little hole and explodes though, like it's so overwhelming Oh, by the way, horrible design of the Deathstar. Whoever designed that, that star to have that kind of vulnerability. Let's not even talk about that. Oops. Oops, I mean, come on, guys. You could have just put a flap on it. It's not that difficult. I mean, seriously, I mean, come on. But um, but again that kind of over that that that odd so you can have a villain that is seemingly overpower but you've got to give the hero a shot. You know, me walking in with Mike Tyson. Even at my age in his age, I'm not gonna win that fight. There's just, it's, it's not gonna happen. There's no way I'll ever be able to, I might get I don't even think I'd even I don't even think I touch him. I think he'd be hit me 30 times before he even blinked even at this age where he is now. So there has to be like you said that balance with villains. And I think and I think you've probably I don't know, I can't think of any bad examples of it. But in, in cinema, when you watch a bad movie, with a bad villain, it's because of its imbalancing of it, or that the villain is just so there's no depth to it, or it's so one dimensional. It becomes the the the the the moustache twirling kind of villain and there's just nothing there. And that's, you know, but when you have a great like Hans Gruber and diehard you know, oh, I mean, wonderful village, wonderful village just so wonderfully written, wonderful played, and then against the hero, which is, you know, which is Bruce Willis. JOHN McClane. The power struggle is really interesting in that movie, because john McClane is pretty much on the ropes the entire movie. Oh,
Pamela Jaye Smith 28:57 yeah. And barefoot for a lot of it too, which was such a brilliant
Alex Ferrari 29:00 choice, by the way. Such a brilliant choice to make him barefoot. So he's running over class, and he's so brilliant. They didn't give him boots. I mean, that was like they gave it maybe barefooted. That's like another level. It was so brilliantly done. But But john has pretty much on on the ropes the entire movie, and Hans is not particularly a imposing physical villain, but he's a villain who's intellectual and his resources are are very substantial, which is to essentially correct
Pamela Jaye Smith 29:35 yes, absolutely. And of course, Alan Rickman has that ability to just give the stare that withers. So can you just raise his eyebrow and just go, oh, okay, fine.
Alex Ferrari 29:50 Now what? So you talk about the three levels of the dark side, what are the three levels? We'll be right back after a word from Our sponsor. And now back to the show.
Pamela Jaye Smith 30:07 This was so interesting when it was pointed out to me, I was taking a series of courses at the philosophical Research Society here in Los Angeles, and studying comparative mysticism, that my specialty is mythology, and the physics of metaphysics and esoteric anatomy and all kinds of stuff, calling from different spiritual systems from ancient Hindu, ancient Egyptian, etc. And the teacher pointed out that there were three levels of the dark side. And the first level is personal. That's your own internal shadow, as Jung would say. So it's your phobias. It's your fears, it's your inabilities or your disabilities. It's one of my favorite examples of that and how the story arcs around this personal dark side is with Indiana Jones. And in the first part of the first film, we find out he's terrified of snakes, I hate snakes. And then, towards the combination of that film, he has had to rise above that personal phobia, and jump down into the Well of Souls. Snakes, why'd it have to be snakes are you give somebody you know, a fear of heights, and then they have to climb the oil drill tower to save the day. The personal side is called in those old mystery traditions, the dweller on the threshold, because it's what stands between you and your next step between you and where you want to be, who you want to become what's holding you back. And we can all probably come up with a you know, there's procrastination, or rebelliousness or laziness, or I'd really just rather party than work. Exactly. Now. And so the dweller on the threshold is what your character needs to be dealing with, in addition to the exterior things. So that's your first level is the dweller on the threshold, the personal foibles, the second level is impersonal. And that's the dark forces. That's nature, red in tooth and claw. That's hurricanes. That's floods. That's earthquakes. That's I just watched Armageddon. Florida. Fun action,
Alex Ferrari 33:03 though. So such so much fun. It's, I mean, it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. It's an app. It's an absolutely ridiculous premise. And I have to take a side note, I was listening to the audio commentary years ago, where Ben Affleck asked Michael Bay in the commentaries like he goes, Michael, let me ask you a question. Wouldn't it be easier to teach astronauts how to be drillers as opposed to be drillers to be astronauts? And he said, Shut the f up bed and just keep acting? Oh, that's good. But for everyone listening who was a criterion collections fan, Armageddon is in the Criterion Collection. So there's something to be said about that. Yeah,
Pamela Jaye Smith 33:49 yeah. And that, that is an example of your characters going up against level to the dark forces. You can't reason with an asteroid. can't bring it over to your side. What are you going to do with an earthquake?
Alex Ferrari 34:09 Or or the bear or the bear in reverence? Revenant? Like there's no talking to the bear? No,
Pamela Jaye Smith 34:15 there's no, no. So it's that old saying that. In nature, there's neither right nor wrong. There are just consequences. Now, and we're seeing a lot of with our climate catastrophes around the globe these days, we are seeing some of the Dark Forces, but we're also seeing the contribution of our actions, the consequences of the contribution of our actions to that so yeah, so dealing with the dark forces. And if you have a story like Armageddon, let's say where the main thing is the dark force, it's the asteroid, destroying the city's going to destroy the whole planet and then Within that you have the personal story, the father daughter story, the love story, the friendship and collaboration and NASA verses that goes with cetera. But it's against that being dark force second level. And even with a story that's all about something personal, if you put something bigger behind it, it can have more impact. So even if somebody is dealing with like, I think, yes, it was well received, but was a silver something playbooks.
Alex Ferrari 35:37 So the Silver Linings Playbook,
Pamela Jaye Smith 35:40 Silver Linings Playbook, yeah. I would like to have seen there be just a bit more going on in the background of you know, some ruling that was coming down or something that was gonna take away the funding from the kind of treatment people were getting something a little bigger. So we have once again, a bit of balance. The third level of the dark side is what used to be called the Dark Brotherhood. Now, you know, we're trying to be gender neutral, so we're calling it the Dark Brotherhood. And that's your Darth Vader's. It's your governance. It's your marauding armies. Oh, and in certainly in the dark forces, you put pandemics and disease?
Unknown Speaker 36:21 Yeah, of course.
Pamela Jaye Smith 36:23 You can't reason with the bug. But the dark other hood can also be a very powerful villain like a Lucifer like a Santos. But something that's a little bit bigger than an ordinary person.
Alex Ferrari 36:43 Right. So it's the I understand what you're saying. So it's not like Hannibal Lecter as a human being still, but but in the, in the grand scope of a fantasy is, I mean, it's also a different kind of story. I mean, Daniels wouldn't work in Silence of the Lambs, though. That would be an interesting film.
Pamela Jaye Smith 37:01 That mashup Oh my goodness.
Alex Ferrari 37:04 That would be an interesting, but you're right. these are these are larger story, different kinds of stories, especially in science fiction, you get a lot of that. And especially like in Star Wars, or in, in sci fi, and things like that. These are these films that are so much more than just a villain.
Pamela Jaye Smith 37:22 Yeah. And Spartacus. Is that kind of story, too. Yep. So those kinds of combinations, then you want to have at least where you always, I think, want to have an individual protagonist. So then you've got their dwellers on the threshold, their foibles and then are you putting them up against a dark other hood character or group and or against a dark force? And then that you got a story. But I think we always have that dweller part to
Alex Ferrari 37:57 know. Have you have you had the pleasure of watching that the biggest show on Netflix right now, Cobra Kai?
Pamela Jaye Smith 38:03 I love it.
Alex Ferrari 38:06 It's amazing. It's amazing. Now what I was watching it when it was still on YouTube, and because I was a fan of The Karate Kid, I was like, oh, let's let's take a watch and, and, you know, everything on paper, it doesn't seem like it's gonna be that great of a idea. Like, okay, we're gonna see Johnny Lawrence and he's life is over. And the karate kid has a car dealership, Mr. Miyagi is not even there. It doesn't seem like it's a, it's gonna work. But what the writers and the creators of the show did so absolutely, brilliantly, and they're continuing to do it, even through the third season, is that they keep shifting the goalposts, which is something I really, I rarely see, you know, like, there's anti heroes, and we'll talk about what an antihero is in a minute. But, but literally, like at the beginning, you're like, well, Joey Lawrence is the bad guy. And Ralph macchio, The Karate Kid is Danny luosto is the good guy, because that's the way it was in the movie. But then, as the season goes on, Dan Russo turns to the piece, kind of the bad guy, and the dark side, right? And he's going to the dark side, and then also with their students, is the same thing. They start off and they flip as well. And they keep doing this and then throughout the series, it's up and down. So one moment Joey, Joey Lawrence is the bad guy, then he's the good guy, then he's the bad guy. Then he's like, he's both and like, and then same thing happens with Louis. So now, like at the end of season three, we just know that I'm not gonna spoil it for anyone listening but you don't you they're just like, they are what they are. It's like it's not a clear line. It's so blurred. It takes I mean, please correct me wrong. It takes an insane amount of skill as a storyteller and as a writer, to do well. They've done in karate in Cobra Kai, because it is arguably one of the cheaper shows to shoot. It's not Stranger Things. It's not, you know, games of throne. But yet it's got numbers that are insanely bigger than those shows on Netflix. And it's all because of the story. But specifically that back and forth that is so rare to see. Do you agree?
Pamela Jaye Smith 40:26 Absolutely. And I think you put it very well. It's that shifting of the balance, when each of those main characters begins to transform against and because of the influence of the other. And so there's this continual awakening, and then oh, my gosh, I didn't think I was like that anymore. But I fell into it. And then you've got that also, I like that generational split, where you've got the young kids. And you see how talk about that the dark leadership again, you see how the kids, particularly those who were bullied, who were fearful, and then you give them a tool to strike out at that strike back against those who had been oppressing them. You know, it's classical, socio politics, psychology.
Alex Ferrari 41:22 It wasn't wasn't that wasn't there. Um, I think he was in Berkeley that that that very famous experiment, the Prison Experiment, where they were they put just two groups of people, one of them got guards, outfits, and one of them were prisoners. And it was just an experiment and it went, it went haywire. Like they had to stop it, because the guards starting to beat this because they felt the power. It was so is that right? Do you know more about that that experiment?
Pamela Jaye Smith 41:51 Yes, actually, I attended a lecture by Dr. Zimbardo at one point. And you can find a lot about his work on web Zimbardo experiment. And there were a few others that followed that, but he's got a couple of books out. And one of the most recent well in the last 15 years was he came out with one after the torture scandal from it, and had a really good book and was giving talks about that how easily we are seduced into the dark side by power. Yes. And think about this too, though. You wouldn't be seduced by power if you already had it. So when you have a system with a stratified populace, you've got a built in revolution waiting to happen.
Alex Ferrari 42:52 There's always people who don't have that power don't have the resources to fight back. And, and, you know, in many ways, you know, especially here in the United States, I'm sure around the world as well that they're we're getting beaten down by so many different powers, whether it's government whether it's medical bills, whether it's you know, food that's not healthy for you, whether it's you know, you know if the credit card companies the banks can you charge like it's there's a constant beating up of, of the of the little guy. And yet that's why this story with GameStop is so kind of fascinating that the little guys like oh, yeah, oh, yeah, well, now we've got some power, and now they're abusing. But now but watch, if you watch that experiment now. Now they're like, We're going after they're gonna do it, the Bed Bath and Beyond Next, the stock, they're gonna do it to AMC, because those are two stocks that are dying. And they're even talking about doing it a blockbuster.
Pamela Jaye Smith 43:51 Buster was still even alive. It's the company.
Alex Ferrari 43:54 Exactly. That was like, you know what we're just and it's, that's, it's so fascinating, to see what happens. And even a revolution when the when, when the when the masses overtake a government or takeover, then it just starts the cycle starts again. Then they put someone new empower. That person gets addicted to power. And then it's like, I really want to help but rarely is there some Jesus Christ Buddha, like Gandhi, like figure that takes the power and actually, you know, tries to help him for a long, long period of time. It does happen but it's rare. It's usually whoever gets that power gets, gets addicted to it and they turn into villains, which is so that's what's the brilliance of Cobra Kai. That is the brute and the power is karate is karate like the like Hawk perfect example that character Hawk who has a cleft lip and he was a beaten up and he was just the complete like he was as nerdy and as weakling as you can. Then he turns into it. Sorry, if you haven't seen season one. I can't help you. There's gonna be a slight spoiler here, he turns into this, he turns into one of the baddest, most evil kind of bad guys in the show. It's so fascinating to see that kind of like shift. And you were saying something really interesting about Danny and, and, and Daniel Russo and enjoy Lawrence is that they change because of each other's interaction with each other. If you left Daniel Russo alone, he would have just stayed being a car dealer dude. And if you'd let Joey Lawrence, he'd still be wallowing and drinking his beer and, you know, watching these heavy metal music videos from the 80s. And he'd be fine. But what, but when you put them together, they react to each other almost as a chemical reaction. And it is a yin and a yang. But the yin and the yang are constantly shifting. And it's so fascinating to watch.
Pamela Jaye Smith 45:54 That's a, that's a very good point. And
Alex Ferrari 45:59 you're writing notes, thank you
Pamela Jaye Smith 46:01 about that. There's a thing, it's certainly I didn't think it up. But I think it's really great. And that is what we need is not revolution, or devolution, we need evolution. Because what you just pointed out there revolution, think about the term resolve, it's like, you're a pig on a spit, one sides done. If you make a revolution, you're just cooking the other side and the other sides of that, that one's all about. And it just keeps revolving, hence, the counter reformation, the counter revolutions that you find in so many systems. And you I think you see that in Cobra Kai. But what they're starting to do is to evolve up,
Alex Ferrari 46:45 they are you absolutely right, because they can't keep that, Eliot's that that gimmick you can't keep up and then they had to create an even better guy, which I won't say for anyone listening. They even created even a bigger, badder guy. We're now the, the yin and the yang have to figure some stuff out. It's so so so, so brilliant. One of my good friends works on the show. He's one of their editors. And he he can't tell me anything, cuz he's, you know, he's signed away his life. But like the moment season three popped out, I was just like, dude, he's like, I know, man. I know. It's just like, it's like, it's fascinating to watch that. Now, we hinted about it earlier. But I want to talk about the antihero. Because the antihero has villain esque tendencies, but yet is driven by a moral code of some sort. And it might not be your moral code or my moral code, but it is a moral code. So I always like using Wolverine. The you know, that very famous x men character?
Pamela Jaye Smith 47:53 Yeah,
Alex Ferrari 47:54 who is the personification of an antihero, and he is, in the scope of the movies and stuff. He's definitely shifted towards more being of the good guy then of the antihero. There's like glimmers of antihero in him. But in the comic books and the original source material, he always danced the line between like, I'm not a hero. But if you see something bad happening, he's gonna take care of it. But I'm not a hero. And the way I do it, you might not like that. That's I love that about anti heroes. So can you talk a little bit about anti heroes? Okay,
Pamela Jaye Smith 48:29 I think first we need to step into linguistics for a moment. And if you haven't anti anything, it implies there is a system, there is something that it is going against, if you will. So the antihero will typically be somebody who is rebellious, they don't accept the system that they're in. That's what makes them anti hero. Because the hero of the system is the civilized person who follows all the laws and, and does everything right and checks all the boxes and the anti hero, just as rebellious goes in and says I don't care about the rules. We're going for this and kick this out of the way and yeah, so in some instances, often, what they are upholding is a purity that has gotten lost. When a system starts taking over something. You used to see this a lot in the westerns where, you know, you're out there on the frontier. And you're well ultimately, of course, doing bad things with like, you know, killing a whole bunch of people that were there first. But then you've got the civilizing forces that come in, you get the sheriffs coming in and you get the lawyers and you get the newspaper, then you get the school moms and then you get the wives and the kids and all this. You get a system, but you still have those cowboys who are out on the edge who are holding on to Something that used to be in their point of view, noble sand pack and pause the Wild Bunch example of that. And these guys are the end of an era
Alex Ferrari 50:13 was that Samurai Samurai is similar. Yeah, Samurai movies?
Pamela Jaye Smith 50:17 Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's that leftover, often in its own interpretation, a noble time a noble way. And I'm still fighting that way. So the antihero, I think has this sense of nobility within, and also an anger and a disappointment at how the system has corrupted or dulled down. Everything taken away things of value. So in a way an antihero can be a savior, if you will, to get us back to something that was better in their eyes. Right? We were lucky, they can help us evolve into something that's above even the old way, the current way. Well, let's try a new way. Well, I
Alex Ferrari 51:16 think the perfect example of that is Superman and Batman. You know, it's I mean, Batman is, you know, depending on which version of Batman you read or watch, is an antihero exactly plays by his own rules. He's a, he's a vigilante, you know, he's like, Superman is not a vigilante, he is considered a superhero, even though some people might define him as a vigilante because he doesn't work within the laws. But he's also a god. So he's, he's running around. But Batman is a complete kind of almost mirror image of what Superman values where Batman is, like, we both agree that there's a problem, but we don't agree on how to deal with it. And I'm gonna deal with it the way I deal with it. And I'm not gonna wait around for other people to give me permission to do so. That's why I think he's so one of the reasons why he's one of the more popular, you know, superheroes of all time is because of that. And also, he has weakness. He's a man.
Pamela Jaye Smith 52:21 Oh, yeah. He's one of the best ones there, I think is the Dark Knight.
Alex Ferrari 52:29 It's like a masterpiece masterpiece.
Pamela Jaye Smith 52:32 And you've got that that mythic theme of twins, you know, the, the two sides of a persona, if you will? And then oh, yeah, the shifting between them the balance of power, but your Oh, it's brilliant, and chaos and order. And, yeah,
Alex Ferrari 52:48 I mean, it was I mean, let's talk about a villain Joker. So and that's something we haven't said about we haven't spoken about in this episode, which is a villain a good villain should be the mirror of the the hero, in my opinion, do you agree because I think the Joker is literally the opposite. And then we were just talking about Cobra Kai. They both are at once poor once rich, once defeated once not, you know, and then, you know, one has a family when that so there's there's that that whole kind of complete mirror image of where it was. And by the way, it was the opposite when they were kids in karate kid. Yeah. Daniel was the weak and poor. And Joe, Johnny was the rich and the you know, and had a higher status in society. So it's so crowded, the more we deep into the psychology of Cobra Kai, I mean, we could do a whole episode on Cobra Kai. But going back to Joker and Batman, they are mirror images, and they have such different beliefs. Does that really make Do you agree that that makes a villain? A really good villain is to having that opposite mirror image.
Pamela Jaye Smith 53:57 Absolutely. And you're going back now into when you brought up Lucifer some time ago. Any any system that has any kind of duality, one of the terms is Manichaean, if not the light, you've got to have the dark now Buddhism isn't like that. It's it doesn't go into dualities as much as many other spiritual systems philosophical systems do. But absolutely, you've got that the mirror image. And so once again, if we get into human psychology, we all fight with our Angel on one shoulder devil on the shoulders. Yeah. So that polarity creates energy just like a bar magnet. You can have two light poles so there's nothing going to happen to get work to get energy, you'd have to have opposites. And so those opposites then and the shifted train them is what creates the current, you know, just go to the physics of story.
Alex Ferrari 55:05 And that means you're so right, because it makes so much sense. Because I mean, if you what drives dark night, is those complete polar opposites? If they were even remotely, if Batman was just a bit more chaotic, just a bit, it wouldn't work, or have the Joker was a bit more civilized, it just wouldn't work. It needed to be those extremes. And you, I never thought about it that way. It actually creates energy in the story. So so you're perfect. That will go back to Santos. Santos is has such a point of view. And the vengers have a completely different point of view. And they're up they're complete opposites. And they in the way they want to deal with things. Is that is that fair? Oh,
Pamela Jaye Smith 55:55 yes, that's how I see it as well. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, um, you know, that's another basic myth. mythic theme that you find is myths and in stories, is that war in heaven? The fight between? How is this world going to be we, we agree there's a problem in the world? How are we going to solve it? What is the solution going to look like? And if Santos wins, it's going to be one way. And if the Avengers when it's going to be a different way, there's a war about the future of everything. That's a big, mythic name.
Alex Ferrari 56:37 I mean, throughout throughout history, I mean, the Greeks and and I mean, in the mean, Shakespeare is constant, it's constant. It's a constant thing throughout throughout mythology and literature. Now, I want to really quickly talk about the the evil person versus the evil group, because there are films in cinema that have bad groups of people, and that they're like, that's the, there's not one specific person, you can point out there's groups of them. How does that differ from? I'm trying to think, I guess, like the, I mean, not the wild, like Wild Bunch. Let's do Wild Bunch. There's a group of good guys, quote, unquote, anti heroes, though, if you will. Yeah. But what if I remember, I haven't seen the movie in years? Was there like a specific there wasn't a specific was there a specific bad guy? I remember that there was an army that they had to fight. And they, they what was the deal with that?
Pamela Jaye Smith 57:35 Well, there was an army. There were also the civilizing forces of the railroad. telegraph. And I think the telephone was coming in. So it was civilization, the civilization that was uprooting them from their former life. And so they went south of the border. And sure enough, there was a revolution going on in Mexico. And they got caught up in that. So they were a small revolution, that moved into a larger revolution, and help the revolutionaries. And it's always well worth seeing again, I went to see it at the dome last time. It was marvelous.
Alex Ferrari 58:20 That's amazing. That's amazing. Yeah, I mean, I haven't seen it in the prior decades. So I don't remember right off the bat, but it's just it's a masterpiece. Of course, anything peckinpah did almost was a masterpiece. So I wanted to ask you, what is something that all screenwriters should know about when writing a bill or writing a villain or writing their script? And I know, that's a very big question. And there's 1000 things you want to say. But what's, what's that? One thing that, you know, if you don't get this, it's never going to work?
Pamela Jaye Smith 58:55 Okay. Two things these are pretty standard four story is, you've absolutely got to have two things. In a story, which be good story, you have to have familiarity. And you have to have surprise. So you need to give us enough that we can identify with somehow or become familiar with and start rooting for you know, whether it's the protagonist or the group of them like in the Wild Bunch prizes with how you bring it about going back again to the Dark Knight. Okay, we know that Joker is always against Batman. We've seen this forever. So that's familiar to us. Oh my god is what did you do with the joker? That is so surprising. Why what. So taking that 30 degree shift in one direction, or just cranking it down a couple of F stops deeper. into the dark side. Daddy, are you going to take the familiarity of a storyline of the show now? and surprises? But it can't be too crazy? Because then nobody Oh, wow, what's that?
Alex Ferrari 1:00:15 And I think that that's basically Cobra Kai. You talk. It's the definition of that, which is familiarity. But then they're like, wait a minute, Daniels the bad guy. Wait, Johnny's the good guy, like way back. Like it's a constant. And that's a constant moving and flux. Kind of surprise, because every episode is just like, Who's, who are we rooting for? I don't even know. Let's just keep going on this crazy ride. It's, it's it's a remarkable thing. Now I'm gonna ask you a few questions asked all my guests. What are three screenplays every screenwriter should read?
Pamela Jaye Smith 1:00:49 Oh, let's see. Well, I think Apocalypse Now. I think Princess Bride? Coleman. Yeah. Yeah. It's just so fabulous. And because we were talking about him, I suggest that people read and not necessarily, that's one of the best I've ever written. But there's a part in there that draws you in as the reader logon. Oh, so good. So on about page two or three, the screenwriter breaks the fourth wall for the reader and says, Okay, now wait a minute, I'm going to tell you what's going to happen here. Now, this guy is burned out. It's not going to work. what he's doing nothing he he has been trying to do is going to work anymore. He's worn out and he uses up some extra words in it. But it's just it's like turning to you and say, okay, Alex, let me tell you before you read any further, you got to you got to give up some of your ideas about this because this is what's going to happen. And then he goes back to the regular screenplay, which is good.
Alex Ferrari 1:02:02 But also that works because we are everyone reading that script is so familiar with that character. Yeah, it there's such an expectation you're like okay, before we keep going here this is this is what's going to happen so you need to break this all out if this is not gonna work. Okay, and we're back in No, I I argue that Logan is in the top top five best superhero genre films in history Dark Knight being up there and Logan being up there. x men to probably being up there as well. Deadpool the original, I think it's it's so brilliantly done as a it's just so brilliant. But But Logan when I saw Logan, I'm like, Oh my god, this is this it transcends the genre, like Dark Knight. Dark Knight was so good that people were so pissed that didn't get an Oscar nomination that they next year, they added five more spots. So they would give a shot to things like that. And like there was because it just transcends the genre. And when you transcend the genre, as a writer and as a, as a filmmaker, you have, you've done something pretty special. doesn't happen very often.
Pamela Jaye Smith 1:03:12 Yeah, absolutely. And we love you for it. When that happens, absolutely.
Alex Ferrari 1:03:19 Now what advice would you give a screenwriter trying to break into the business today?
Pamela Jaye Smith 1:03:23 Hmm, okay. Well, some of the basics of course is write write, write. Never give up. Never Surrender called Galaxy Quest. Would you also script
Alex Ferrari 1:03:37 the movie and they're making the sequel? They're making this. I think they just said I think they just signed on it. I think they just signed on it. They're writing the script right now. So it's the cast is back. But yes, I just saw it recently, by the way. And again, I'm sorry guys listening. We have to go on a Galaxy Quest. Side note here. How that movie has so as aged so well. Yeah, it should have been a throwaway movie. It should have been just like, oh, that's kind of nice. But the emotions in that movie hold so brilliantly. It's not it's kind of like elf. Like you watch elf. And you're just like, this. This is just a silly comedy, but that is like no, it's so much more than a silly comedy like it. It resonates on a deeper level with with the audience. Okay, continue. I'm
Pamela Jaye Smith 1:04:28 sorry. And I would say if you have not seen it, do see it. probably seen it 100 times. We used to watch it once a week. Almost every day one of us is quoting. No time for pleasantries, Kyle. Never saw it. I knew it was so good. So good. So good.
Alex Ferrari 1:04:50 So okay, so go Right, right, right.
Pamela Jaye Smith 1:04:52 Okay, right, right. Right. Also, I would say read actual books. Start with some of the content Classic Stop it. I know, I know, it may seem a heretical idea. And not just the Western Civ books, but you know, read novels read the first Chinese novel written by a woman 1000 1500 years ago, okay? And get yourself at least one book of mythology. Because that's where they keep all the good stories is in the myths, you know this? Yeah, it'll, it'll help you so much in your storytelling. And all of us are seeing media all the time. That's great. But as far as writing, read books, read screenplays, read mythology. And I would say, persist, persist, persist. And I have a personal story to tell about that. And 1977 we wrote a screenplay. And we polished it and got it out there for a while. And there was some interest at one point from MGM, but then they had a regime change. We all know what happens after that, usually nothing. So it kind of sat on a shelf for a while. And then a couple of years ago, we brought it back out. And because of some things that have happened in the world, and started entering it in contests, and it was a winner at the Bahamas International Film Festival, okay. And we got to go spend a week in the Bahamas. Yes, at a writer's retreat that we had written in 1977, practically fresh out of film school,
Alex Ferrari 1:06:43 worth it worth the price of admission, just to get us to get a trip over to the Bahamas, right? I mean, why not?
Pamela Jaye Smith 1:06:51 answers, it's so it's so wonderful. Now, writers are so fortunate that you can get your stories out to so many different production companies. And when we first started, there were the major studios. And that was it. And fortunately, we were able to get some things around. But enter some of these scripts contest, write up your pitch materials and submit through the pitch portals. There are a lot of places out there where you can pay X amount of dollars, and list your scripts or your logline, or send out query letters. And we've just recently, in the last couple of weeks, had some requests from some good companies, for some of our stuff, just going through the pitch portals. So it's really a great time to be a writer, people are looking for content. They want what you've got. And just remember, they're looking for what you're doing. So do it well, and get it out there.
Alex Ferrari 1:07:54 Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?
Pamela Jaye Smith 1:08:00 Oh, that's a really good question. Because you make it so broad. Listen to your own intuition. Or it's the one that says don't go on that rafting trip instead of a rap party should have gone to the rap party, almost on a rafting trip. And it says sometimes, you know, you can just kind of get a sense that this is not going to be a good shoot. We were asked once I won't mention the country, but we were asked by a country to come over and do some documentary work for it. And then we thought about it for about 10 minutes and then said, you know, thank you for but now, learn to recognize danger. Listen to other stories, watch the news a bit, don't get totally grossed out on it. But observe and pay attention to your own inner monitor your own inner voice.
Alex Ferrari 1:09:06 And where can people find you and the work that you do?
Pamela Jaye Smith 1:09:11 Oh, thank you. They can go to Pamela j Smith comm or miss works dotnet they'll take it to the same place. And there are all of our newsletters for years gone by interviews, articles, stuff, we've done stuff, we're doing my consultation services, at cetera, et cetera.
Alex Ferrari 1:09:36 It has been an absolute pleasure talking to you Pamela, thank you so much for taking us down the path of the dark side. And and showing us about teaching us about villains and I I just love the conversation. I had a ball talking about characters and villains and, and Cobra Kai
Pamela Jaye Smith 1:09:57 wonderful questions. Thank you. It was thought provoking for me and brought up some new thoughts as well. So great, thank you so much.
Alex Ferrari 1:10:07 I want to thank Pamela for coming on the show and dropping her dark side bombs on the tribe today. Thank you so much, Pamela. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, including how to get access to her book, power of the dark side, head over to the show notes at bulletproof screenwriting.tv forward slash 108. And if you haven't already, please head over to screenwriting podcast.com and leave a good review for the show. It really, really helps us out a lot. Thank you so much for listening, guys. As always, keep on writing, no matter what. Stay safe out there. And I'll talk to you soon.
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