Podcast | Bulletproof Screenwriting

BPS 445: What Every Indie Filmmaker Can Learn from a $5K Zombie Movie with Bojan Dulabic

November 13, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

A spark of madness is often the first step toward creation. On today’s episode, we welcome Bojan Dulabic, a passionate Vancouver-based filmmaker who pulled off a small miracle—he made a full-length zombie movie for just $5,000. But this isn’t just a story of budgeting brilliance; it’s a tale of relentless passion, artistic vision, and the kind of self-taught wisdom you can’t get in film school.

Born in Bosnia, raised in Germany and Croatia, and finally settled in Canada, Bojan Dulabic’s journey into filmmaking is stitched together by war, displacement, and a child’s fascination with VHS tapes in his mother’s shop. His early life sounds like something out of a global coming-of-age novel. And perhaps that nomadic upbringing seeded in him a gift for observation—a key trait in any great storyteller. When he finally turned his teenage creativity into a film project in high school, something clicked. Not just the shutter on a camera, but the internal compass of a man who knew he had to follow the path of cinema, even if it meant doing it on his own terms.

This wasn’t a journey paved in gold. His first feature, shot for $4,000, was a comedy that taught him the ropes. His follow-up? A feature-length zombie film titled Project Eugenics. What could have been a cliché genre dive instead becomes a thoughtful narrative on misinformation, the chaos of modern life, and yes—zombies as metaphors. “To me, a zombie flick… it’s not about the zombies. It’s always about something else,” Bojan reflects. In his hands, the walking dead become symbols of mass confusion, manipulation, and the blurred lines of truth in our hyper-connected world.

There is a playful seriousness to Bojan’s philosophy. He reveres Romero and admires Rodriguez, but he walks his own road. Like Alan Watts would muse about the dancer and the dance, Bojan seems less concerned with final outcomes and more with being in the creative flow—tripping over obstacles and finding meaning in the madness. He shares stories of juggling a wedding, a tight shooting schedule, and DIY visual effects like a magician with duct tape. His secret? A mindset that embraces “safe confusion”—a term borrowed from Tarantino—that invites the audience into mystery without losing them.

What’s more, Bojan brings a rare humility to the table. He speaks about his cast and crew with deep respect, understanding that low-budget filmmaking doesn’t give you the license to burn out others for your dream. His actors often worked just a few days, each scene scheduled with precision. His respect for time, energy, and goodwill may be the real reason his film came together. For him, filmmaking is not just a creative act but a spiritual contract—with himself, with his collaborators, and with the audience.

This podcast isn’t just a technical breakdown of low-budget indie cinema. It’s a spiritual blueprint for artists who feel the fire but lack the funds. Bojan’s approach is radical because it’s so simple: take stock of what you have, and build from there. Whether it’s stock footage, free VFX plugins, or your friend’s living room—use it. More importantly, finish it. Don’t wait for permission. Make your movie now.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:49
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:54
Joining me today is Bojan Dulabic. Bojan is a Vancouver filmmaker, and he just released the zombie feature film project eugenics Bojan how are you Sir?

Bojan Dulabic 2:04
Good, good. Thank you for having me, my friend.

Dave Bullis 2:07
Oh, it's my pleasure. You know, we met through Jason Brubaker. I end up meeting so many people because of Jason. I should really give him a producer credit for this podcast.

Bojan Dulabic 2:17
It's he's a great resource, man. I've written a few articles for his blog. And, yeah, he's great guy, great guy, yeah.

Dave Bullis 2:26
And the article that got us introduced, so to speak, was the article he wrote called how I made a zombie film for $5,000 and at first, when I saw that, you know, I thought Jason may have wrote that. And I was like, wow, Jason made another zombie film. And I said, Oh, wait, it's this guy, Bojan, he just wrote it. I started to learn more about you. So, you know, that's what we're going to talk about on this podcast, is, you know, I'm sure a lot of people probably saw that and was thinking, My God, how do you make a zombie film for $5,000 let alone a feature zombie film, you know, $5,000 so, Bojan, get started, you know, how did you get into the film industry?

Bojan Dulabic 2:57
Me, um, yeah, oh, man, that goes back a long time. You know how every filmmaker has a story. You know, when I was seven, my daddy bought me a camera, and, you know, I started filming, and I started to think about that. How did it actually happen with me? And I realized it actually goes as far back as when I was five years old. I'm originally from Bosnia, which is in Eastern Europe, and my mom actually had her own store, and in there, she also had a video store at the time. And so obviously, you know, I was, I think I was around five, I started watching movies, and it was all Hollywood movies, and I loved it, right? And so in 1990 there was a war in Bosnia, and we moved to Germany, lived there as refugees. And I just, you know, I just love movies. I but not just movies. I mean, I think every kid loves movies. I love to watch making off, you know. And you know, back then, we're talking early 90s, there was no Internet, there was no YouTube, you know. So finding out how movies were made was not that easy. So luckily, there was some shows, so I would watch as much as I could. And then in 1998 we moved to Croatia, because I'm Croatian from Bosnia. So we moved there, and we lived there for three years, and then we moved to Canada. And it was in Canada, in high school, Winnipeg, City of Winnipeg, when I where I really developed an interest for acting and for filmmaking. And it was, it was in grade 10. And, yeah, I just loved it. I, you know, it started with simple slide shows, and I did a, I did my first short film in think it was my grade 12 class, English class. It was a creative project. And, you know, I was like, I don't feel like doing another paper. And I was like, Hey, man, can I? Can I make a movie? And my teacher is like, sure, yeah, why not? And so I did. And that was really when I started doing it, and got more and more into it. Then I started doing videography for actually, my my the school division that my high school was part of, because. At that time they they saw some of my stuff that I was doing, and because for whatever project, school project that you know, if I could do a video about it, I would, you know. And so my teachers, kind of, you know, gotten to know my my filmmaking abilities and all that stuff. And so it started there, and then I went to the University of Winnipeg studying theater. Didn't do any, I didn't take any film courses or anything, everything when it comes to filmmaking, was pretty much self taught, you know, by making a lot of mistakes, you know, yeah, and you know how it goes. And then in 2007 I moved to Vancouver, where I am now, to, you know, pursue acting and filmmaking. So, yeah, and, you know, just kept doing short films, you know, my my YouTube channel, web shows, you know, that kind of stuff. And then in 2012 I finally decided, Okay, I'm gonna make my first feature, which was a comedy at the time. And that one I actually made for $4,000 it was even less, but it was a lot simpler. It was said mostly in one location, and, you know, talking heads kind of comedy. And, yeah, when that one was done, because I'm a, you know, zombie nerd and sci fi and horror geek, you know, I was like, okay, you know what? I think I can do this initially. I actually, my goal was to make this movie for $3,000 but, you know, I realized, okay, that's, I'm pushing it with five, but with three, I'm really that's just ridiculous. So, yeah, then, you know, in when was it early 20 late 2013 early 2014 around there, I had this idea for, you know, this, the zombie flick, and started writing. And by the summer, or was it, yeah, By late summer of 2014 I had my, you know, first draft, and then I started, you know, started thinking about casting and all that. Started casting in October ish of 2014, and November 1 we started shooting. So it was, it was very quick process. And, you know, then editing took longer. But also, if you want to add one more crazy element to the mix, I also got married three months ago. So, yeah, exactly. So, you know, obviously, you know, that's important, and in many ways that's more important than the movie, you know. But I'm a filmmaker, so you know, we're crazy people. So yeah, I managed to, you know, make all that work. And you know, I have an amazing wife who just, I can't thank her enough for, you know, putting up with me. So, yeah, that's kind of how I got into it, you know,

Dave Bullis 7:54
You know, that was pretty quick from, you know, having that initial idea to actually getting, you know, start shooting the the film. And you know, if there's one thing you do need when making a film, it's another crazy element to work against you, right? Yeah. So how long did it take you to actually write the script? Then, from, you know, from concept to actually writing a full page screenplay,

Bojan Dulabic 8:14
I would say, took about until I had my first draft. I'd say about seven months. Six, seven months around there, yeah, once I had the first draft, the rest was very, you know, relatively quick. But, you know, getting it up there to the first draft, yeah, I'd say about that around there.

Dave Bullis 8:31
So when you were writing the screenplay, did you try to, like, immerse yourself into zombie films? Some of the other guests I've had on the show, one of the things that I've noticed is, whatever their theme or genre they're writing for all they will watch and read about is just that one thing. So I imagine, if you use that method, all you were watching were zombie films. Now, did you? Did you follow that method?

Bojan Dulabic 8:53
Absolutely, absolutely. And you know, as my wife will testify, because she hates horror, it was, yes, I do the exact same thing. I mean, I, you know, I bought a book about zombies, and I, you know what, re watch pretty much every zombie movie I have. And, you know, whatever else is on Netflix, and, you know, and you know, out there, because you have to. I mean, you really have to, I mean, to me, a zombie flick, a good zombie flick, it's never, it's not about the zombies, right? It's always about something else. And then obviously, use the zombies to tell a story. So they're more a storytelling device. So to me, it was really the main thing was, okay, what is this movie about? Figuring out what's my angle, you know what? Because, I mean, zombie movies have been done to death, obviously, and we all love it, but there's one every week coming out. So how, what can I offer that's, you know, a little unique, that's little, you know, outside the box.

So you know, that was my main thing, as I was watching, like I said, all these these zombie flakes and reading and all that. And once I had that, you know idea, and once I figured that out, then the rest was a lot easier. You know, still wasn't easy, but it was easier. You know,

Dave Bullis 10:29
Yeah, yeah, I know exactly what you mean, and you're right though. You know, there is seemingly a new zombie film coming out every week. You know, I was just talking about it to my one friend, and you know, he's not in the film industry, but he watches a ton of films. And he's like, You know what? I'm so sick of zombies. He's like, Dave, I don't want to watch any zombie films. I ended up trying to talk him into watching a zombie film after that, because actually, and one of the things that I've you know as producing movies, I've noticed is, is that they always ask, you know, what is your unfair advantage? You know, if you're pitching to somebody, you know, what is your unfair advantage? You know, what is our unique selling position? You know? And that's something that you were, you know, you've kind of hit on there, you know, because you have to make it, what's going to be unique about your you know, your film. You know, anyone listening to this, I'm not even talking about making a zombie, so I'm talking about making any film, you know. How are you going to make it unique that so it stands out from the crowd. And, you know, obviously bullying. One of the things you did was, you know, you know, you put your own style into it. You know, I don't know if it words in your mouth, but, you know, actually, why don't I just ask you. So what are some of the things that you that you wanted to make sure you got in there that made it sort of your style, made it your movie, that you could help stand out?

Bojan Dulabic 11:40
Oh, sure, yeah, I mean, you know, growing up the way I did, you know, moving around a lot and be, you know, being part of different cultures and and all that stuff was great on one hand, because it really gave me insight into just, just humanity, right? I mean, just understanding how the world works, right? But on the other hand, it also made me the constant outsider, you know, I mean, as much as I tried to fit in, you know, it's difficult, right? So that's kind of, you know, what I tried to bring to this. It's, you know, interestingly enough, if, well, if, if I can use that word, for lack of a better word, you know, the things that are happening lately, just around the world and all that it, you know, it really seems like, like a zombie flake in one hand, in the sense that, you know, one of the things, for example, I tried to accomplish in this movie was, I'm trying to, I'm trying to say without giving away, you know, plot lines. But essentially, a lot of it deals with information. You know, what's happening, you know? Person A tells you this, person B tells you this, Person C tells you this, you know, and all that stuff. And you're kind of stuck in the middle going, I don't know what's going on, you know? So that was kind of what I tried to bring into it a certain a safe confusion. I watched an interview with Tarantino a long time ago where he talked about, I think he was talking about Reservoir Dogs or pulp or Pulp Fiction, one of the two. And he was talking about this concept that he calls a safe confusion, where you know, you want the audience to be confused in terms of, okay, what's going on, but at the same time, it has to be safe in the sense you haven't lost them, right as you, as you unfold the story, you know, you want them to be safe and keep watching, but yet, there's a certain amount of confusion they need to have, because that's when they'll they'll engage more. So that's what I tried to do with the way I structured the story, which, again, without giving too much away, it, it's a bit different. And, you know, it's not as simple, okay, from A to B kind of a scenario. So on one hand, I try to do that with the structure of the story. And I try to, like I said, I try to talk about real, well, quote, unquote, real things that do happen in the world, which, you know, the way the world is being portrayed by, whether it's the media, by just individuals by, you know, whoever it is, because I do believe, you know, that we live in in, like said, interesting times where we have so much access to technology. I mean, it is crazy, man. I'm sitting right now, you know, you don't see it, but I'm sitting in front of two screens. I got my tablet, I got my phone. There's way too much technology in here. You know, it would take me five seconds to look up anything, whatever I'm interested in, you know. So that's great on one hand, but on the other hand, there's also, I feel this, this confusion as to, you know, what is going on in the world, you know, like I said, whether it's politics, whether whatever it is, it doesn't really matter. You know. I. It's not my job as a filmmaker to tell you what's going on, because I don't, I don't think that's what we should be doing, but it's simply my job to talk about these things. And yeah, you make up your mind. I don't, you know, it's I respect, you know, whatever opinions people have. But yeah, if that, if that makes any sense, that's kind of what I try to bring into this to make it more than just a, you know, just, you know, just a dumb zombie flick. Because, like I said, I love zombies, but it shouldn't just be about the zombies. It's, it should be more than that, you know,

Dave Bullis 15:34
Yeah, definitely. And, you know, I think The Walking Dead, you know, hit touches on that theme. And then, you know, obviously Romero, he really set the tone for all of it with night of the living dead. And, you know, then he went into into consumerism with Dawn of the Dead. And then we went into the whole day of the dead. I mean, I actually just re watched Day of the Dead A while ago, and it actually was a lot better than I remembered. I remember, you know, in high school watching three of those. And I remember liking dawn the most by far and away, and I came back and revisited day to day recently, and I was like, wow, this is a lot better than I remembered it. Maybe I was just too stupid as a kid. I don't know.

Bojan Dulabic 16:08
No, absolutely no. I absolutely agree. I mean, interestingly enough, I mean, Ramiro is obviously one of my top zombie Well, I think he is the top zombie God, you know, film God. But interesting enough, it was actually diary of the dead. I don't know if you've seen that one that, I mean, I've seen all of them, but that one was really the one that stood out to me, and the one that, I would say, probably inspired me the most in terms of, you know, the what I want to talk about, because it does deal with different, sorry, similar themes, just in the sense that, you know, everything's well, it's slightly different. But, you know, technology plays a big part. And, and, you know, a certain like I said, confusion as to what's going on, and manipulation. Yeah, that's the right word. So, yeah, no, I agree. You know, Romero was a big influence on me as well, you know? I mean, there's plenty of them. If we step slightly out of the zombie genre, Robert Rodriguez is my, one of my top guys, just in terms of executing a movie. I mean, I'm sure I'm not the first one say this when I heard way, way back that, you know, when he made El Mariachi for $7,000 you know, I was like, Really, get out of here. You know, I was, I read it somewhere in the book. This was before I, you know, started, really started on my filmmaking journey. And I was like, Good God, man, if he made that back in 92 Why shouldn't I be able to do, you know, my version of it, by today's standards, which should be better, because technology is better. It's cheaper, you know, all that stuff. So that's really, you know, when, when this seed was planted in my head that, you know, I don't need it. Yes, it would be great if I had $100,000 a million dollars, you know, whatever, right? I don't so, but I, I'm pretty confident I can, I can do this, you know what I mean,

Dave Bullis 18:07
Yeah, we as filmmakers today, you know, Jason and I talked about this too, was we have so much information being thrown at us, and a lot of the times, you know, we end up not actually making a film. We talk about making a film. We sit there and we research every camera package. And you know, this boy on there's a new camera package coming out every other day. It's, you know, red is over there, and canon and Panasonic, and here's a black magic. And, I mean, it's just, it's a never ending deluge of new camera packages. And now you spend more time reading about cameras and lighting kits than you do actually writing the screenplay and going, Hey, wait a minute. Maybe I should make this. But wait, first I got to look at the new camera packages. I think, I think road just released a new audio kit. I gotta look at that, you know. And I think that's sort of, it's, it's paralysis through analysis. That's the best way to describe it. And, you know, that's, but it's, but it's good, though, that you read Rodriguez's book, and then, you know, realize, hey, you know, why couldn't I make this zombie film for $5,000

Bojan Dulabic 19:08
No, absolutely. And to go back to the whole gear fetish, as I like to call it, absolutely, I agree. And I think we all suffer from that. I do too, absolutely. You know, you know this, this evolution of technology in terms of, you know, filmmaking related technology is amazing. But yes, at some point you have to stop yourself and say, You know what? That's great. And yes, in reality, if I make this movie today, if I had waited a year longer, certain aspects would of it would probably be easier to make, but then you're in this endless cycle where, yeah, you'll never make anything, because, you know, things are always getting better easier. I mean, for this film, I used the Black Magic Pocket Cinema Camera, which, and I, you know, I really wanted to use it for this flick, because big, you know, because of various things. And we can certainly talk about. That too.

But you know, if I had waited, for example, until now, you know, I could have used the micro. What is it? The black magic micro studio camera. They got this really small one, which would have allowed me to do even fancier shots, you know what I mean. So yeah, you you can get crazy just thinking about all that stuff. So yeah, it's it's great. And but on one hand, you have to stop yourself and say, yeah, do this now. And yeah, when, yeah, going back to Rodriguez. I mean, you know, when I, you know, read about him in a different book, and started reading his book and all that stuff, you know, the one thing, and Jason talks about this too, the one thing that you know, certainly filmmakers. Who are, you know, beginning, beginner filmmakers. There are certain myths that we we start to believe, which is, you know, well, you have to have, whatever, a million dollars to make a movie. Or, you know, you have to, you have to have 20 people on crew, you know, to do all this blah, blah. And don't get me wrong, it certainly, you know, there are specific budgets for specific types of movies that you should have and all that, however, you know, if you get creative, you can make, I'm not going to say you can make everything work, because there are certain things that really, you know probably not going to work, but most things you can and, you know, like Rodriguez said in an interview and in his book, you know, take stock of what you have. You know, take stock of the relationships you have built and what do you have access to, and make a movie about that. You know, I did that for my first movie. I did that for this movie. And I mean, you should always challenge yourself, and, you know, grow so, you know that's that's obviously important. But don't be afraid, man. Just get out and do it. And yeah, you're going to make mistakes. You know, you, in my opinion, the best thing I could have done for this movie and my other movie was not to think everything through, you know what I mean? Because a lot of times we become our own enemy when we start dissecting everything, you know? I mean, you need to have a game plan Absolutely. But there are certain things where you'll just have to deal with it if it occurs or, you know, as it unfolds, um, because you don't have all the answers. I mean, good God, man, I've, you know, I've been on set as an actor, on professional sets, and I always love to observe the crew, because, you know, that's the filmmaker in me, and you think they have all the answers with with millions of dollars of budgets, no. So sometimes you just take things as they are, but don't be afraid to just dive in there and, you know, get your feet wet.

Dave Bullis 23:06
Yeah, very true. You know, oftentimes we think, you know, we have to have this large amount of money to do things. And the key, I think, is, if we are going to set out to make a movie and we're going to fund it ourselves, or even crowdfund, or even crowdfund, or even crowdfund, you know, a certain amount of money. I think the script has to be written that way on purpose, meaning that, you know, we're not going to be able to do all these wonderful special effects unless either a you know how to do it personally, like you as the as the director, or whoever know how to do that. And I've seen filmmakers do that. They, they're special effects guys by trade. So all the VFX stuff looks amazing, you know, all the bold time stuff. And then on the flip side of that, you know, they're hoping to, you know, maybe farm it out, maybe going to somewhere like Upwork, or somewhere to find somebody, maybe in like, you know, India, or something that could do it for a cheaper price. But, you know, barring that, you know, I think if you are going to write, you know, make a movie. And let's just say we have $1,000 to spend, like, kind of like, what Mark Duplass was recommending, just go making movies as cheap as possible to learn how to make movies we should make that, you know, we should write. Hey, listen, what do I have access to? I have access to my car, my house, this woods next to me. I can use my aunt Susie's house, you know, how am I going to figure how can I make this into a movie that you know is going to keep audiences engaged? Well, maybe I don't have enough for 90 minutes. Maybe I have enough for 20 minutes, so maybe I should make a short film instead and just build off from there.

Bojan Dulabic 24:36
Absolutely, absolutely I agree with everything. I mean, that's, you know, that's exactly what I tried to do on this one. You know, what I really wanted to do on this one that I didn't do on the first one was having more actors, having more locations, right? I really wanted to step up the production value on that side. But, of course, you know, there. No budget, really, for those things. So I knew, Okay, I have access to certain places, you know, I shot at my brother's place. I shot at my buddy's place. You know, I had access to a studio, so I was able to shoot some stuff there. And, you know, for example, you talked about VFX. I'm not a professional VFX guy. However, I am actually getting more and more into it, but I knew that, okay, I can do certain things with, you know, with VFX and and I do talk about this. I think I talked about that in the article as well. For example, I used video copilots plugins for After Effects, and they allowed me to animate, you know, jets and drones and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, create certain shots that I couldn't have gotten otherwise, not with my budget, right? So, you know, understanding that, okay, I can bring this to the game. And I think I talk about this during the article, I, you know, made use of stock footage, which, in my opinion, stock footage when used properly and sparingly and all that. There's nothing wrong with it. I know there's filmmakers who shy away from it, but to me, if using somebody else's music, what's the difference? It's somebody else's material. But like I said, as long as it supports your story and it makes sense, and you know, you're not using it every every two minutes or so, nothing wrong with it. So I made use of that. So I understood all these things as I was writing the, you know, the script and the way I structured the story. I also structured it purposely that way, because, like I said, I wanted more actors. And there's, there's quite a few actors in this one, but I don't have the budget to pay them, you know, but I figured, well, if I, if I only use actors for one, two, maybe three days at the most. I think that can work, right? So I structured the script that way, where you know, that's what ended up happening, because at the end of the day, you know you have to, you have to understand that, you know you can't abuse other people. You know what I mean? I mean, yes, this is my dream, this is my passion and all that, but that's mine. It's not others. You know, for other people, that's just a job, a gig, and when they're not getting paid, well, you got to be sensitive to that, right? So, and yeah, it's probably the actor in me as well. I've been on enough indie shoots where, you know, you start to feel like you're being taken for granted. On this one, you know. So I, you know, was thinking about all these things as I was, like I said, constructing the story, which is important. It's, it's crucial, because at the end of the day, I rather do a, you know, a smaller project, but do it right then try to attempt this epic thing where at the end of the day, you know, I burn out, and I don't even finish it the way I want. I owe money to gazillions of people, and everyone hates me. You know what I mean, this way I'm good, you know?

Dave Bullis 28:14
And you know that that's I made a mistake like that when I first started, you know, I tried to make something way too epic for like, my second or third movie. This movie will never see a light. No, no. It was my third movie. That's right, because my second and third short films will never, ever see the light of day. I But the third one, somebody actually has on DVD, and if I ever even got a modicum of success, I know somebody would be like, Hey, look at this. This is Dave Wilson's thing. But basically, there was a lot of of gunplay. And I had, this is one Video Copilot. I actually have that, that DVD as well. I actually got, got the DVD for, I think, Christmas, or maybe I bought it myself. And what happened was I was all all set to do all the I did all the choreography. Worked out well. One by one, I had my crew drop out. So now I'm doing like, not only three rolls and four rolls. Now I'm doing like six or seven roles. So now it's down to me, my cinematographer, because this was a whole new team. I've never worked with these guys before, and as the day went on, I just had more and more problems kept creeping up that, you know, I could have worked out had I had more people to fight these fires. For me, why I fight these fires? Because now it's like, you know, I'm going around trying to fix this and do that, and then, you know, the place was supposed to be vacant. And then here, guess what happens? Here comes security. Who are you guys? You're not supposed to be here. And I'm like, Yes, we are. I have been over this for months talking to you guys. I mean, it just it was a complete disaster. But the point I'm trying to make is, if I had just done something even a slightly, slightly step backwards, on a slightly smaller scale.

I would have had a much better time. I would have had a much better finished product. And we probably would have gotten shot, probably got would have gotten everything shot that day, rather than, you know, having like pieces of it, you know, put together somewhere. And, you know, eventually I put together what was like a rough cut of a couple of days, and it was like you couldn't show this anywhere. It was unbearable to watch just everything that could went wrong did go wrong. My second and third student films that everything that could go wrong went wrong. It was unbelievable. You know, I was just talking about, you know, making things that are epic. So if there's advice to pull from this from anybody listening, do not try to make like Godzilla or Lord of the Rings or Inglorious Bastards, your first time, you will fail horribly.

Bojan Dulabic 31:00
Yep. Oh, I absolutely agree. You know, I've done a fair share of mistakes on, you know, like short films and all that, but I definitely, you know, there's a lot of anxiety and fear on my first film, and that's why, you know, that's why that one, like, like I mentioned earlier, it's a comedy, mostly set in one location, you know, it's two roommates, and it's in their apartment, and, you know, stuff starts to go wrong and that kind of, you know, those kinds of scenarios. And you know, we shot that one in eight days, on weekends. And you know, that really, that was a great sort of playground, learning ground for me to see. Okay, first of all, can I do? That was 83 minutes, which is this one is also 80 minutes. So, you know, it's the same length. So that was a good opportunity for me to see. Okay, can I? Can I actually make a feature, you know, an 80 minute thing. Can i Because, you know, a lot of filmmakers talk about that, but they've actually never done it, you I know, I didn't know. What does it actually entail to make such a such a longer piece? You know, at that point, my longest short was probably 12-15, minutes. Maybe, you know. So, you know, but there was a certain safe environment, because, like I said, mostly shot in one location. It had four main actors, and then there was few others, but it was mostly those four guys, right? And, you know, I was very happy when, when it was all done and with, you know, the end result. And it, it boosted my, my, what's the word man, my, my, not my ego, but my confidence, confidence. Thank you, Jesus, I can talk Yes. So it definitely boosted my confidence. And, you know, made me realize that, okay, I think I'm ready to do something bigger. But that's, that's a crucial moment right there, when it could have fallen apart easily if I had gone, you know, just a slightly bigger than what I ended up doing. You know, it's a tricky thing, and I've, obviously, I have many filmmaking friends, as we all do, and actor friends and all that. And you know, some of them have never made a feature. Some of them are still working on it, and some are recovering from it, as we all are. And you know, it's always good to just be cognizant of, okay, you should always have your own style, absolutely. But you know, if, if you know people that have done it, talk to them, you know, I love to talk to, you know, guys like you, other filmmakers, and just kind of bounce ideas off, you know, okay, this is what worked for me. I don't know if it's going to work for you, but this is what worked for me, you know. And you know, once you start doing that, once you start understanding this whole process, it definitely helps you, at least it helped me, you know. So hopefully, when the next one, you know, when it's time for the next one, I'll, you know, it'll be bigger. But like I said, I don't want to go overboard where that one's pretty much going to bury me, you know.

Dave Bullis 34:22
Yeah, it's somebody once told me before, when I was starting out. They said, Dave, never listen to anybody in this business who teaches you how to make a film, who's never actually made a film. Never listen anybody who took out how to write a script, if they'd ever written a script. He said, You know, this is all so hands on that you can't just keep, you know, there's a lot of theory and all of this. There's a lot of theory like, Hey, I could, you know, make it this way or that way. What you really need is, the is, the is that meat and potatoes, so to speak. And I actually wrote a book. It didn't get published. It's actually on a hard drive. I took everybody on this journey. Day by day, and I actually took a snapshot of my bank account. Well, the productions bank account, everything from check stubs, receipts my own like writings of how I dealt with problems with crew, cast locations and every day, at the end of every day, or at the beginning of every day, I would write something. At the end of every day, I would write something so like, day one had a beginning, and this is what happened. This is what we're playing on doing. And then I, at the end of the day, I would come back and write this, and I would give you snapshots. I compound it all together into a book. It was this TV pilot, and I actually pitched it. And a lot of places were like, you know, this is a lot. And I said, Well, it's, it's just detailing, you know, how did I come up with $1,000 very quickly? How did I get this money? How did I when PayPal shut down our crowdfunding campaign because they had no clue what it was they How did I come back from that? It's, that's the stuff that you have to talk about. And then there's also, like, I actually have my own private checklist of what I do now, like, I'm gonna start a crowdfunding campaign next year. I know exactly what I'm going to do differently than I've done when I did years ago, and even when I've done last year, when I was helping out other friends, you know, sometimes I would they would, you know, send me their link or whatever, and I'd say, okay, just do this and this. And, you know, I, you know, don't worry about credit. Just, you know, when the time comes, just, you know, retweet my stuff or help me out any way you can. But, but, yeah, you know, it's, it's just about those relationships and actually cultivating it. And, you know, not being, you know, just not being a jerk to people, I guess, right?

Bojan Dulabic 36:34
Well, absolutely, no, absolutely. I mean, first of all, that sounds like an amazing book, man, you know, I want to read that, you know, no, but absolutely, that's, that's exactly what it is, you know. Going back to your comment about listening, people have never actually made a film. I 100% agree, and we all have listened to these individuals who have these amazing theories. And at the end of the day, look, if you haven't done it yourself or or if you unless you are talking about what someone else said, it's a theory, you know, I only talk about things that I've actually done, you know, because at the end of the day, I don't know, and I don't want to Be The Guy Who gives you some BS, you know, information, because I wouldn't want to be the one receiving BS information either. You know what I mean. So, no, absolutely, it's a tricky thing, because, you know, obviously everyone has an opinion. And you know, the one thing I always like to do, you know, whenever I meet, you know, let's say filmmakers. And you know, we start talking about everything. And you know, after I've met them, I I look them up online just to see, okay, has this person actually done something? Because, you know, you know, if they have given me so many information, all that, I want to see where that actually comes from. And you know, in some cases, you know, you're positively surprised. You go, Holy crap. Well, they've done amazingly, like, I want to talk more to this person. And then, you know, there's, there's situations where you go, I see nothing here. I see absolutely nothing. So at that point, you kind of go, I don't know. Man, I don't know. And, you know, it's the same thing. I, you know, I have my YouTube channel where I have a show called filmmaking today, where I talk about, it's different things, gear, I use, techniques I use for my film and my projects. And I always, you know, from the beginning, I told myself, I will only talk about things that I'm actually doing, you know, because, again, there's so many videos about, you know, all kinds of things coming from people who've actually never done it. I kind of have an issue with as an actor. I also have an issue with, you know, acting coaches, because, you know, you got to be careful with that, you know, you take, you take a workshop with Person X, and, you know, you look them up, and you see they had, they have, actually less gigs than you, you know, okay, I, I, technically, I, I'm more qualified to teach you this course, you know what I mean. So this is not, not a good idea. So, yeah, I agree to, you know, put it in one sentence.

Dave Bullis 39:30
It's funny. You mentioning acting coaches. There was actually an acting coach on my Facebook. He deleted me just recently. He was always inviting me to all his events in New York and stuff like that. And, you know, I actually, one day watched one of his I don't it's not a real it's like a promo for his classes. And he acted like he was, like the best actor who's ever existed. So I looked him up, and he was in virtually nothing,

How the hell is this guy running acting classes who has done absolutely positively nothing, and that's why, when he deleted me, I'm like, I didn't even worry about it. I was like, Oh well, because I have an app on my Facebook that tells my name, it deletes me and yeah, so I actually, I was like, I don't care anymore. So I took that app off because, like, you know, why even bother, right? I'm barely on Facebook anymore anyway. So as most people can tell, I'm just like, going there and this and that. But now I'm sorry. Now I'm getting off topic. But yeah, the Facebook and, but yeah, no, you're absolutely right. It's like Alex Ferrari. He just had a post on his indie film hustle.com blog where he said, Don't hire somebody just because they have a very good looking camera. That is a mistake that I made one time. And the guy, the guy was talented, but he was also insane. And by the end, we were fighting back and forth. He was fighting with everybody. And, you know, everyone kind of gave me the eye, like, you hired this guy. And I said, you know, I was like, Guys, I'm sorry I tried to fire him. The producer wants to keep him because he's got, you know, the RED camera, and he's got this, but it was a complete, you know, disaster and final. And I afterwards, like, I was so burned out for the project, I didn't want to talk about it anymore. I was just, you know, I told the producers, you know, that guy completely sapped all the energy because you, I mean, you, you know, Bucha, you know, when you go into a film set, anybody, and it's whether it's you, me, Quentin, Tarantino, Rob Rodriguez, we all have a finite amount of energy and patience and everything else, you know, we all have at the beginning of the day, we have, you know that those levels, you know, and as you go on, you know, going through everything, you know, it gets whittled down. Certain things get taken out more than others, you know. But by the end of the day, you know, you're pretty much on empty, you know, physically and mentally and sometimes spiritually. And you know, that's when you're you finally realize, you know, wow, it does take a village to raise a child. Sometimes it does take a whole army to make a film. And this is why,

Bojan Dulabic 42:14
Oh, absolutely. And, I mean, I don't think most people realize, absolutely, how exhausting this process is, especially in the film, in the indie film world where you know everything smaller, the budgets are smaller, you know everything. And absolutely i I have had my fair share of you know situations where you know whether it was dealing I have been blessed to work with great cast, but you know, there are certain situations where they might not understand that. Look, it's not, it's not just about you. I mean, again, I'm an actor, and when I once said, I understand that there are so many things happening at once, so many, so many stars have to align up, you know, line up to make this one shot. And, you know, we all have to suck it up, essentially, you know. And, you know, it's difficult. It absolutely is difficult. I mean, on, you know, on this, this set, it was, you know, a typical day would pretty much consist of me. I would have my audio guy, I would have, you know, my my makeup and prosthetics person, and then, if I'm lucky, one more person, right, sort of to help out a little bit of everything. And you know, that's it, you know. And then the actors, obviously, however many there were. So, you know, we're not talking like I said, 20, 30 people on set, because I'm a strong believer that the more people you have on set as crew members, it all slows you down. And a you know, it's not about having a lot of people. It's about having the right amount of people, you know. And yeah, sometimes I might go overboard in, you know, maybe not having enough, but that's what allows me to shoot seven to 10 pages a day, which is what I average. We shot this film in 10 days. And, you know, it's, it's, it's an exhausting process at the end of the day. I mean, I'm the first one on set. I'm the last one to leave. You know, I had been plenty of days where I wouldn't even eat anything, not, not because I don't want to use because, you know when, when it's lunchtime, I'm going through my shot list and I'm going, Okay, we got to get this done. We got to do this. I talked to my sound guy, you know, my, whoever it is, my prosthetics person, you know, and that kind of stuff. So it's very exhausting. But you know, I do believe that you have to have certain amount of insanity as a filmmaker to attempt anything in this world. Because I think any sane person would go, I, I'm good man. I'll stick to my nine to five, you know. So I am blessed with a certain. Sanity, which, which keeps me going, you know,

Dave Bullis 45:03
And you need that. You need that little bit of insanity that when you say at the end of, at the end of some of these projects, you'll say, Never again, never again. Am I going to do this? I don't care what comes along, and six months later, you know, at most, you're like, Damn, I should go make a movie. You know, what the hell is going on here. Because, you know, I mean, like, you know, my quick, you know, little story, it's been about four years since I actually made anything of my my own. I mean, that's not to say I haven't been on other people's sets or done this or done that. I'm just talking about my own stuff. It's I the last thing that produced was about four years ago, and I there's an interesting story about why it's been four years, but it's just to be put up make a long story short, it's, it's crazy people. I we had a crazy editor, and I finally looked at the guy that was the director, and because I recommended this guy, because all of a sudden he just kind of went berserk. And I'll tell the story another podcast. But basically, I was like, I apologize. I'm gonna work to figure the, you know, to solve this stuff. And that's, that's that point where I was like, I must be insane to keep wanting to come back and be a glutton for punishment with this stuff. You know, it's like, my god, and, you know, and, you know, speaking of, you know, of editing, what? Actually, one of the questions I want to ask you too. Bojan was, you know, what did you use to to Edit Project Eugenics?

Bojan Dulabic 46:24
Yeah, I use Premiere Pro for editing. I am a, I'm an Adobe nerd, right? So I use most of most of their products. So yeah, for editing, it was a Premiere Pro. I used to use Final Cut seven a while, while ago and on my last movie, my first movie, I actually was one of those people who switched to Final Cut 10, and I actually edited most of the movie in there. And it, it did not work out. Just it, just my personal opinion. It's not what seven used to be. So I went back to because before, or somewhere in between that I can't remember, I was using Premiere, and so I went back to premiere, which i i use exclusively now for, you know, my editing, and because I love the integration with Premiere Pro and After Effects, you know, just being able to send the sequence into After Effects. Do you know, whatever I need to do, and then, you know, keep working in it. So, yeah,

Dave Bullis 47:25
Yeah, you I use all the Adobe products as well. You can't beat that, because all you do is, literally, you click a button and I edit this podcast and audition. And you know, when I'm in Premiere, I can click a button and just say, send audio to audition, and I can work on all the audio problems I can take out pops and clicks and stuff. I mean, it's just it's amazingly easier. You actually couldn't get any easier. Because, I mean, maybe you could. But, I mean, it's just it's phenomenal the way it works together.

Bojan Dulabic 47:52
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I, you know, I also do graphic and web design related things. So, you know, I obviously use Photoshop and Illustrator for for all that. And, you know, in my opinion, I know a lot of people hate it when Adobe switched over to their Creative Cloud subscription based model, and I actually love it. I think, I think it's, it's, it's a great model. You know, I'm constantly, we're all constantly getting updates, and they're great. I mean, you know, just recently, I discovered their mobile apps so you can actually create a lot, you know, color lookup table using your phone. You just take a photo of whatever, I would say, a sunset, and it will create those colors, and you can apply that to your video footage. And it's amazing, you know, just the integration, which goes back to what I, you know, what I said earlier, earlier, the advancements in in this field. I mean, technology in general, but especially this field, are so incredible. I mean, there's really no excuse not to make a film, you know, whatever type of film, it doesn't matter. You know, yes, 2030, years ago, it was, you know, 10 times more difficult. And you know, you needed to ask for permission, right? Like, like Jason always talks about asking for permission. Nope, we're done with that. I'm not going to ask anyone for permission. You know, I'm, you know, able to make my films the way they are, and obviously I want to grow the budgets and all that. I don't want to keep making $5,000 movies, but I'm not asking anyone for permission, you know, and that's extremely empowering, and it really allows you to tell your story, you know, whether people like the movie or not, I have no impact on that, but this is my story. This is it. It's truly a Director's Cut. There's no, you know, no one interfering. You know,

Dave Bullis 49:48
You know that that's, that's what you know a lot of filmmakers are doing now, is they don't want, you know, they don't have to ask for permission. They don't have to, you know, wait for someone's notes to come in after seeing the dailies. Anymore. You know, it's they can go out and they can they they're the ones calling the shots, for instance, like M Night Shyamalan, that's what he does now, because, you know, after he made after earth. He said, I don't want to do this whole studio system anymore. So he went out, made the visit, and it was a lot more successful for him, both financially and, you know, as an artist, because now he didn't have anybody telling him, you know, what to do, because he could do it himself, you know, he he made all his own calls. There was no notes, no one looking over his shoulder. And that that's, you know, that's invaluable as a filmmaker. Robert Rigas also was talking about that recently when he said, You know, I'd rather have less money and more freedom than, you know, more money. And I have to answer to 10,000 people, he said, You know, it's, I'd easily rather have less money.

Bojan Dulabic 50:57
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I'm right on board with that statement. I mean, I, you know, I mean, my, one of my goals is to show people, you know that, okay, this is what I can do for $5,000 and by the way, that's 5000 Canadian dollars, which in us is like two bucks. Nowadays, $1 is worth nothing, apparently. But anyway, so that's, you know, that is my goal. And I, actually, I have absolutely no desire to make, like 100 or 100 and $50 million blockbuster movie. I really don't, because knowing myself, how passionate I get about these things, I probably get fired for picking a fight with with the wrong executive and all that stuff. And I, you know, so those stories don't interest me, because I think, for, you know, for 1 million, I mean, you know, you look especially in the horror field. Another one of my favorite directors is James Wong, you know, he made the first Saw movie and the insidious movies and all that. And, I mean, you look at just those movies, who all of them, all the insidious movies, I think the first one had a budget of 800,000 I think somewhere on there. And then, you know, the budgets grew slowly, but they're still in couple of few million dollar range. And you look at those movies, and, man, they're amazing. I mean, the horror fan and me, you know, if you're into horror, I love it. And from a production point of view, I think it's done very well, you know. So, you know, I think, you know. I mean, Spielberg talked about, you know, this the and Lucas too, about, you know, the implosion of Hollywood, which, my opinion is, I think something will happen in the next, you know, little bit the way I kind of see it, you know, if you look at the history of Hollywood, you know, back in the late 60s, when, when the studio system fell apart, right? And you had corporations buying all the studios and making the movies, and, you know, that was sort of the first, the first or the second wave, technically, you know, the first wave was the one that started. Then you had the second wave with the corporations. And I kind of look at this as the third wave, which is us indie guys, call it the YouTubers, whatever you want to call it doesn't matter who are able. And I'm not, I'm not, I'm not talking about myself here. I'm talking about in general. There's certainly plenty of other directors who are able to do much more than I am with small budgets. And, you know, you look at the stuff that they're doing for for virtually nothing, you know? And yes, most people don't get paid on those sets, but you know what I have, there are indie projects who caught that cost 100, $150,000 and people still don't get paid, you know. And then you look at movies where, you know, like 5000 or 10,000 Well, you know, I think if, if you make a movie for 10,000 just give the person a 10,000 and everyone would get paid. You know what I mean. But it would still be a great product. Whereas you start wondering, okay, the, you know, millions and millions of dollar budgets. What happened, man, you know, what? Where's the quality where, you know, did everything go towards the catering budget? It was like, you know, you start to wonder. And, yeah, so I firmly believe that we, we are part of the next wave, so to speak, because at the end of the day, you can't keep having budgets in the $200 million range. I mean, you know, you look at, you know, the recent Terminator movie. I mean, if it wasn't for China and the money they made there. The movie obviously flopped. Let's, let's not kid ourselves. You can say whatever you want in North America, the movie flopped, but it didn't have to. It could have been something, you know, I was praying it would be something as I was watching it. So, yeah, I think. There's a lot of change coming our way. And, you know, I think in the end, it will be positive change if we just stick to our guns. And, you know, say, you know, look, we can tell these stories. And you know, I'm not, you know, if a producer comes to me and says, Listen, we have a couple of million we want you to direct this movie. You know, I'm not going to be like, no, no, I'm an indie guy. No, no, I'm going to take the money. I'm going to make a movie. But absolutely, you know, you're not stupid, but at the at the same time it, if you came to me, you obviously trust that I can bring something to it. So let me tell my story, you know, and that's easier to tell. It's easier to have that conversation with someone when you're talking about a $2 million production versus a 200 million. So yes, it's, you know, I think a lot is going to happen, and some of it is already, you know,

Dave Bullis 55:57
Yeah, you know, I wonder, as I was talking in my last podcast interview with Brad Wilkie. You know, a lot of this, I think, is it's so accessible now, and we always talk about who is going to rise to the top. Is it just so overcrowded that it takes a rare instance of, you know, the perfect storm of a network of money, of this and that, to rise to the top? Or is it just still the old fashioned way, where everything's still just gonna rise at the top based upon quality, meaning, like, you know, the Reservoir Dogs is still gonna rise to the top those types of movies. I actually feel both are true. Personally, I think that you know, even with, you know, the influx of new filmmakers now, just in the past year or two, I really do think that you know you're going to see the quality projects are always going to go to the top. You're going to because, you know, you always trust your friends most of all. So if your friend tells you, hey, listen, go watch, you know, whatever movie, most of the time, you're going to listen to them. You're going to say, Hey, okay, I'll sit down. I'll carve out the time. But you know, I think with the, you know, with a lot of these superhero movies, I think that's going to cause a lot of burnout. But then again, I said that, like, two years ago, and then there's still, you know, churning them out, and they're still number one at the box office, and now Star Wars is coming out, and that's, let's face it, that's the unstoppable force right now, I don't, I don't even think Star Wars is a movie anymore. I think it's like a, I don't even it's almost like a need now, it's almost like on the Maslow's hierarchy of needs. It's like Star Wars and then food and shelter and feelings of safety. I mean, it is just a phenom. I mean, and I see all these spin offs, and I'm like, You know what? They could have 100 spin offs. They could have movies come out until everybody right now is passed, and our great, great grandchildren are still watching them. And you know what, I don't think it's ever going to stop. Uh, if they could just keep finding a new character to expand on, like, Hey, see that guy in the cantina? Well, that's, you know, rebuild six, and he's going to, you know, do something now. And it's all just, you know, it's, it's just all the continuation of this universe.

Bojan Dulabic 58:02
Amen, don't underestimate, don't underestimate, revelant six man, that guy's got it going, you know. Oh, absolutely. Uh, look, you know. I mean, it's human nature to to yearn for entertainment. I mean, this has been true way before there have been movies and television and all that. I mean, you know, we want to be entertained, you know, so that will always be there. But I do believe I agree with you, in the sense, you know, the way I see it, I don't want the big blockbusters to go away, you know. Because, you know, if you want to tell a an epic story, like a Star Wars type of story. You know, there are certain budgets needed. That's what I'm saying. You can't make everything for, you know, low budget. But I don't think that every movie needs to be that. You know, the problem, in my opinion, the problem is that, I mean, good God, we have comedies now that cost 60, 70 million to make, dude, it's a comedy. As long as you make people laugh, you're fine, you know, why? Why? Is my question. So, you know, I think it just, I just think it needs to, you know, balance itself out, sort of where, you know, we still, you know, I still want to see the big blockbusters coming out, you know, whatever, a few of them a year and all that. But that should be a small segment. The rest of it, you know, should be, you know, reasonable budgets. And at the end of the day, it all goes back to story. I actually, I don't go to the theater as much as I used to, because, frankly, when I look at, you know, I look at some of the movies, I'm like, I don't think it has knowing, like I said, knowing how story, the story, has suffered in a lot of movies, I just go, You know what? I don't trust that this is going to be a good story. So I just don't go and I wait until it's on. Netflix, and you know, then I give it a shot. And, you know, sometimes it's good, sometimes it isn't.

So if you make, if you really focus on the story and you and and the crucial part, which I don't know why execs seem to have a problem with that. If you hire a director because you think he or she is good, let them do their job, man, you know, let them do their job. Um, if they're not good, then don't hire them in the first place. So, you know, I think all that you know, like I said, the story needs to the story needs to, the story needs to be number one. You know, we're now at the time where we don't get wowed anymore, by by technology, by by CG and all that. And, you know, I saw the new, I'm sure you have to the new Batman versus Superman, or Superman versus Batman. You know, whatever the order is, trailer. And, you know, I'm more interested in the story, in in in the conflict between them. Not so much about the CG, because I know the CG will be fine. You don't have to pimp it. You know, it's 2015, we're able to do some amazing stuff with CG. So tell me more about the story. You know, that's what I'm curious. And I think a lot of studios make that mistake where they show you all the CG, all the explosions, blah, blah, blah, and, you know, no offense, it starts to look like a Michael Bay movie, you know. I mean, you know, so, yeah, like I said, it's a Yeah, I agree. I absolutely agree. I think on one hand it won't go away, but on the other hand, I, I do think certain things will change. You know what I mean, it's,

Dave Bullis 1:01:49
I concur. I think certain things will change. Because, you know, I mean, we always talk about, you know, theatrical releases too. And, you know, there was always that discussion of, you know, if you know, independent films should try to go get a theatrical release. Now, you actually had a theatrical, a theatrical screening, and I don't know, was that for one night, or was that for a couple nights? Or, yeah, it was, it was one night, yeah, okay. Now, I mean, now, do you feel because you did this for the one night, then so did you feel that that may have helped you, or do you feel that maybe next time you wouldn't do that again?

Bojan Dulabic 1:02:26
That's a good question. I do feel, I mean, I'm happy with the turnout, because we had it on Tuesday evening, rainy Tuesday in Vancouver, and, you know, I was able to get people out. So that's an accomplishment, considering I'm a nobody, no name filmmaker. Now for the next one, I don't think, I don't think it has to happen. No, I don't think a theatrical release is crucial. Honestly, I don't know if I'm going to do it for the next one or not. For this one. I really wanted to do it because I felt that I had a certain momentum going, you know, and I felt that, okay, this, this could help. So let's just do it. And, you know, like I said, I'm happy with the turnout and all that, but I think we're now at the time where, you know, including myself, like I said earlier, I don't really, you know, for example, you know, my wife and I bought tickets for Star Wars, obviously, like, a month ago, I would actually, if I could stream that sucker in my living room on my nice, big screen TV, you know, in two weeks, whenever It comes out, I'd be glad. I'd be happy to do that, you know, I, I, you know, I don't care about seeing it in the theater, because, like I said, if I could stream it here in the comfort of my own home and have a good time and, you know, popcorn and all that, I'm cool with that. So I think, you know, people's mindset has changed a lot when it comes to that. I, in my opinion, your movie should be available wherever it can be available. You know, sort of like the Netflix model. Because how people watch your stuff has changed drastically. You know, I have a I have a 15 year old cousin, and I always like to use him as a guinea pig. And you know, I asked him and couple of his buddies, you know. Okay, so I was curious, do you guys care about cable, you know? And they're like, No, you know, we care about the shows we watch. Okay, cool. So the shows you watch, do you care about watching it on a TV? Or how do you watch it? I'm like, I don't know. I watch it however I however. I want on my phone, on my tablet, blah, blah. So, you know, there's no, you know, I think, with with our generation, and certainly with the older generation. You know, the prime sort of experience of watching a movie is obviously the theater, and then, you know, at home. Home now with these guys, the only thing they do care about doing on the big screen is gaming. And you know, that's that, you know, day one on the big screen. But other than that, you know, they're okay with watching a movie on the or show on their phone. So, yeah, going back to the question, I think it has helped, and I'm happy we did it. I'm not sure if I'm going to do the next one. Honestly, I'll because, you know, it might be two, three years by the time we make the next one, and who knows how much will change? You know how the landscape will change by then? You know, hard to say,

Dave Bullis 1:05:37
Yeah, that's true. And by the way, I actually looked it up as of this recording, December the seventh, 5000 Canadian dollars equals 30 755 cents US dollars. So there's that. I wanted to look that up. So, so now we, we have a $1,300 surplus. Now that's from filming, but so, you know, you ended up putting the movie on VHX, and it's available now. You You know, you actually have a ton of extra footage on there, extra sorry, bonuses on there. You have, you know, you have an audio commentary, you have a behind the scenes look, you have this special effects tutorial that you did. You have your screenplay on there too. You know, is there a reason, you know, why you chose the VHX over maybe putting it on YouTube or any or, you know, even trying to get on Netflix?

Bojan Dulabic 1:06:26
Yeah, well, I haven't ruled out Netflix yet so, but the reason I went with VHX, I use them for my first movie as well, and I just liked how because they're still relatively, you know, a relatively new company. And I like how they're constantly improving their service. You know, I'm, I don't get paid to do any, say, any of this, you know, just my opinion. But I do like that. Every once in a while, they're like, Hey, you can you have this feature. Now you have this feature. So they seem to understand that the landscape is changing rapidly. So they're, you know, keeping up. And I just love the fact that, you know, I can upload all my stuff, whatever I want. I can set the price, you know, I mean, they take their cut from each transaction, but they don't dictate me, you know, how much I should sell the movie for, for example, iTunes, they do tell you they do have their set prices. Last time I checked anyway, could be wrong about that. So, and you know, and you have all the stats in terms of who downloaded or purchased your movie, rented your movie, whatever it is. So that was really the main reason just control, you know, at the end of the day, you know, I, I, you know, you get used as an indie guy. You do get used to a certain amount of control you have over your project, right? And you know, you spend so much time and energy, you know, making it. And you know, it would really suck, that when it comes to distribution, all that gets taken away from you, you know, which is usually what does happen. So that was the reason why I like a company like VHX. Now, having that said, you know, I, like I said earlier, I wanted to be available everywhere, you know. And you know, that's like I said, in my opinion, how we view and consume Entertainment has changed drastically. You know, I don't have cable because I, I, you know, the entertainment I watch is accessible via YouTube, via Netflix, you know, whatever service it is, and that's good enough for me, man, you know. So, yeah, that was, that was the main reason. And, yeah, going back to the special features, yeah, I, I always, most of my film education also comes from making our features on DVDs and blu rays, right? So, you know, when we, we moved to Canada in 2001 and, you know, we that's when I started watching blu ray, because they weren't available in Europe. And when I saw, holy crap, there's an audio commentary, dude, I cannot watch the movie, and the director is talking about what I'm watching. You know, how he did it, and all that stuff. And it was, it was, you know, I was like, Oh, my God, moment. So, you know, like said, most of my education comes from that. And I always feel I want to do the same, you know, it's, I guess it's a, it's a way of, you know, giving back, if you want to call it that, you know, because I feel, I feel, the more there are indie filmmakers, you know, the better it is for everyone. Because all of us will collectively sort of raise this industry to a level where, you know, we can actually make money doing this. You know, it's not just okay. Let's put my own money into this. And you know, you're never going to see anything from it.

So, yeah, that's the reason,

Dave Bullis 1:10:15
Yeah. And you know, Jason Brubaker was saying, you know, some of these distribution deals are just completely inane, you know, and nobody in the right mind would would go for them. I actually knew somebody who they actually made. I probably put about 10,000 into their movie, and they were trying to distribute it. And when the time came, they only had one company that was willing to pay them, and they were going to pay him something ridiculous, like, think it was like 1000 bucks or 600 bucks, and they would have the rights for the movie for five years, to show the movie in like, some foreign country. And I think it was like, I think maybe even Cambodia or something, and, and that filmmaker was like, What the hell kind of distribution deal is this like? And they got full race in the movie too. So for those five years, he couldn't sell it to anywhere else. It was all about. So it was really odd. And I don't know what they ended up doing with it, but, you know, I think this is the future too, where we, if we did have a theatrical run with a film. I think it should. It probably will end up being available the same day, or maybe the day after, on maybe VH x, or maybe, you know, YouTube, or even a digital download directly from that person's site. And, you know, hey, listen, it's 10 bucks and, or whatever the hell it might be. And you can get the bare bones version. You can get this version. Then you know, what draft house films does. Hey, look, you can get the film. But then you also get a t shirt and, or, if you want the next package, you get a poster with it. And the next package, you get the vinyl record with it. And, you know, I think stuff like that, the, you know, having those upselling packages and stuff are going to be the future as well. And, you know, and I think it's just going to be again. About is going to be again, excuse me, about building that market, building that audience, making sure you have a high quality project that you can actually do with the resources you have. And you know, maybe not shooting too high for the moon. And you know, crowdfunding, and you know, keep working that audience, and you know, seeing what you can come up with and you know, and just, you know, and building from there, you know, there's a, there was a really good article about, you know, if you do build an audience for a film, you know, what do you do with that audience after the film is over and you just sort of say, Hey guys, well, it's been fun. It's been a fun year. You know, us building this. So that's one of the things too, I think has to change is how people market films. I think Facebook fan pages, honestly starting a new one for every film you do, I think it's gonna get a little like ludicrous after a while, because I know people who have like seven, eight different Facebook pages for different films they've done, and then they have to, then there's that audience, and then there's this audience. But I think maybe if you had it under one umbrella. Or maybe Facebook could change this, but maybe if you had it just for your production company, it's, it's stuff like that that I think are really going to be key to making sure that everyone still sees your stuff and but then again, you know the email list is always going to be key. That email list is critical, because, you know, and you know all the social media stuff, we could talk about it for days, but the fact is, it's rented space, and they can change it without warning. They can change it. They can do whatever they want, and they never have to tell us about it. They don't, almost an explanation, because, after all, it's a free product, and you know, they, you know, they're the ones putting all the money for it, and we're just sort of renting that space out.

Bojan Dulabic 1:13:36
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, going back to the whole having multiple pages, absolutely. I mean, I, you know, I have my my mail list, mailing list, and initially, when I, when I put that together, I actually talked to someone about that, and I a person who had his own mailing list that I was subscribed to. And I asked him, What should I do? Should I have one for this movie, for this blah, blah. And he, to his credit, said, not a dude have one, trust me. And so that's what I did my you know, I treat my mailing list as a sort of like a VIP area. You know, if you subscribe to it, you will always be the first one to get, you know, clips, for example, if you go on the web, website, Project eugenics, you can watch the first three minutes and whatever is 40 seconds of the movie for free, right? Well, that was available to my newsletter subscribers months ago, right? So they were able to see it. And then, you know, whenever I have coupons, discounts and all that stuff, they are the first ones to, you know, find out about it and it not just about this movie, then, you know, whenever I have videos for my YouTube channel, they are the first ones to get notified. So you know that that's my way of building an audience, and, you know, rewarding them. And. So to me, that's really how you know how we're going to rise in this in this industry, in this indie industry, because at the end of the day, it all comes back to the fan base. You know, you look a guy like Kevin Smith, another good example, you know, who really has sort of cut himself off from Holly like mainstream Hollywood in terms of filmmaking. Who is, you know, making more of his own stuff? Well, he's allowed. He's able to do that because he has had almost 20 year career in Hollywood, right? Well, I don't have that. So I have to, I have to adapt a slightly different model, which, you know, hopefully it's not going to take me 20 years to get there. But, you know, you look at, you look at YouTube guys, which, that's sort of the model I'm adapting. You know, film right? Is a great YouTube channel where, you know, you talk all about film related stuff, and they have their fan base, and, you know, that's the approach I'm taking, which is, okay, this is the stuff I do. I talk about film related stuff, whether it's gear, whether it's techniques, all that stuff. Subscribe to my newsletter. You know, you'll, you'll get a book as free, which is, I think it's called How to make a movie in your own living room, which talks about my first movie, and then, you know, you'll be the first one to get all my info. Oh my sorry, all my promo stuff and and all that stuff. And, you know, it's, it's working. I mean, it's, it's, it's definitely growing, and I'm happy with it. You know, it's certainly not there where I want it to be at this point, but, you know, it's growing. So that's that's the main thing, and that's how we have to look at it. I know a lot of filmmakers, you know, young filmmakers, our generation, who are still trying to adopt the old model, you know, who aren't as active online who don't have their own fan base and all that. And look, everyone you know, there are people every year who succeed with the old model you know. You you write a script, you it gets noticed by the right people, you get your funding. That's all great, but that's a very small percentage, you know. And I don't want to build, you know, put all my hopes and efforts into something that, ultimately, yeah, might never be seen by anyone you know. And that's, that's also why I have, you know, an issue with film festivals these days, where, you know, I love film festivals. That's all great. But the reality is, you know, 10 years ago, you might film festival X may have received 200 submissions. Now it's 2 million. Or who knows, however, so, yeah, it's a lot more difficult to stand out. And I, you know, I just think by building your own audience, by, you know, having people dedicated to to you and what it is that you're doing will, in the long run, help you. And there's a lot of examples of that where, you know it works on YouTube and on online in general, right?

Dave Bullis 1:18:15
Yeah, it's very true. And you know, one of the other things that I've noticed is, is that once somebody gets a following on YouTube, they tend to go right to Patreon, and they start a Patreon account to get some, you know, to have people actually, you know, fund them, whether it be 510, you know, $15 a month. I actually was researching Patreon, and some of them, some of those channels, are pulling down a pretty good amount of money per month. I'm talking like 13, 15,000 per month. Now, I don't know. This is what I always wonder about Patreon. I don't know how that divvy up between the members, or if that's just all has to go towards art, or if they're quitting their day jobs. And who the hell knows? Because I guess it's a case by case situation, but you know. But I mean, you know. So there's a lot of options. Now, which is a good thing. You know, it's not a war of i when it's not a war anymore to get your film made, it's war of eyeballs and ears. So, you know, you just have to sort of chug along and figure out again, like we were saying when we started, you know, how are you going to stand out? You know? How are you going to stand up from the pack? And you know, how are you going to make sure that you know people know who you're you know, as soon as people put your movie in, how they're going to know it's your movie? How are they going to know your style? And I think it's, you know, I think that's a challenge now, is finding a voice, because I know I struggle to find my voice. Sometimes it's even in writing, even, you know, when it's just me with a memo pad and a pen, because I still do old school. I try to disconnect from technology when I'm writing, I don't. I save the laptop and the and the other stuff for later on, but for now, it's just, you know, a pen and a paper.

Um, you know. But so, you know, that's, you know, I now, I lost track. Now, don't tell my pens and papers, but, but no, I think, you know that's, you know, there are these options out there now. And you know, I think a lot of filmmakers are trying to figure out, you know, how to actually, how to actually make it work for them, as I'm trying to say,

Bojan Dulabic 1:20:22
Oh, absolutely. And look, by no means have I figured it out. I just want to say that I have figured out a lot, like I said, How to make a movie, but when it comes to distribution, that's still, you know, that's a beast on its own. And you know, on one hand, you just have to understand that things are changing constantly, you know, and the things we talk about right now, you know, a month from now, there might be another service that comes out that just Whoa, blows it out of the water, right? So you have to be open to change you you can't be stuck in the old ways. Because, you know, and I understand that the traditional way of making and distributing a movie has been there for, what, 60 years, 60 plus years, well more than that. So I get it, you know, it was, it's, that's, that's a, that's a significant time, significant time in, you know, in that industry. But much like when the first digital cameras came out 10 ish years ago, you know, things have changed, and things are changing, and you need to understand that. And I get why a Steven Spielberg type doesn't really care about it, because he doesn't have to, you know, but a Bobby and duly big type has to, because I don't have any of that, of what Steven Spielberg has. So, yeah, be open to change and simply embrace it. And, you know, understand that. You know, making a movie nowadays is not actually that difficult anymore. You know, it's difficult, but not as much. It's really, what do you do to get it noticed, to get it seen? You know, that's really what we need to tackle, and that's what I'm constantly trying to figure out. You know, I'm not worried about my next movie, how to make it. I mean, of course, I'm not going to be an arrogant prick, and it's like, oh, I got it all figured out. I don't, you know. But my bigger concern is, okay, how do I get it seen? How do I, frankly, make money? You know, you have to make money off of it because, like I said, you how else you're going to keep going and make more movies, you know? So that's a challenge, and but the more services come out, like Patreon, like VHX and all that, it makes me feel good, you know, I want an explosion of those services, because eventually we'll figure out something that is sustainable within that, you know,

Dave Bullis 1:23:00
Yeah, and that's, you know, that's true too, because, you know, making money, or making a profit on this is, again, is how you make your next film. Unless you, if you go and go in and make a movie, and it's just the goal is just for experience, or what have you, and you spend like, 2000 bucks, and you're just like, look, I'm gonna put up on YouTube. I don't I maybe this will give me some hits, maybe give me some subscribers, but I'm not gonna do some for the, you know, to make a profit or try to sell this, then that's fine, that, you know. But if you're serious about making this, you know, as a profit, you know, making it profitable, you have to actually have a business plan. You have to think this way, you know. You can't just sort of go in and say, Well, I hope things work out, you know, because eventually someone's going to come along. And this is a story I'll say for another time, but I have a friend of mine, and he had the attitude. And finally somebody, a big distributor, came to him and actually asked him for those materials, those business materials, those accounting materials, and everything else. And he was like, I don't have anything. I have, no, I can't give you the budget. I can't give you this. I can't give you that. And there's a couple of things they asked them for, and eventually they just sort of walked very interesting story. I mean, I'll tell it sometime, or I'll bring him on to tell it, but, but, you know, like you said, you know, there's a lot of options out there and, you know. But yeah, we've been talking for about, you know, about an hour 20 now. So you know, in closing, is there anything you wanted to maybe say, any final thoughts or closing thoughts you wanted out of this conversation?

Bojan Dulabic 1:24:30
Um, you know, just want to, obviously, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. And, you know, I love what you're doing. Keep doing it. We need guys like you, you know. And just want to just generally tell everyone you know, if you want to make a movie, make it. Do it. Obviously, be smart about it. Think about all those things we've been talking about, but just do it. Man. Life's way too short. And like I said, if you're smart about it, you can do all kinds of things also, um. If you are curious about my film, go project eugenics.com you can rent it, or you can purchase just a movie. Or there's a filmmaker edition, which has the making of features we talked about. And also, I have a promo code that I created just for the listeners here, if you get the filmmaker edition and just punch in in the coupon section, punch in podcast, and you'll get 30% off. So it's actually for you Americans, it'll be even better. Oh, no, wait, I'm trying to think, think, is it in US or Canadian? Anyway, it'll be either better. It'll be the same. So yeah, it'll be it's 1499 and then you'll get 30% off of that for the filmmaker edition. So and, yeah, if anyone has ever any questions, just, you know, ask me. You can email me at [email protected], D, U, L, A, B, I, C, or just look me up online. I'm very easily stockable online.

Dave Bullis 1:26:01
Yeah, I found you. So there you go. Yeah. You know, I want to say thank you very much for coming on Bojan, I will everyone again, as always. I will link to everything we talked about in the show notes all the I will even link to the article that boy on wrote for Jason Brubaker's website about how he made the film for $5,000 and I looked at everything else, all these social media sites, but yeah, we honestly thanks again for coming on and, you know, again, I wish you the best of luck. You know, with with, not only with Project Eugenics, whatever you're doing the whatever you're doing after project eugenics and all your future projects.

Bojan Dulabic 1:26:36
Thank you, my friend. And again, thank you for having me. And absolutely, keep on rocking my friend.

Dave Bullis 1:26:43
Oh, thank you. Do the same, buddy.

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BPS 444: Phil Proctor: A Journey Through Comedy, Resilience, and the Art of Reality

November 6, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

The landscape of existence can sometimes feel like a cosmic play—actors shifting between roles, creating stories that ripple through time. On today’s episode, we welcome Phil Proctor, an artist whose life weaves a tapestry of creativity, resilience, and humor. Known for his work with the legendary Firesign Theatre and an illustrious voice acting career, Phil has left an indelible mark on the worlds of comedy, film, and beyond.

Phil Proctor is not merely a performer; he’s a storyteller who transcends mediums. Reflecting on his career, Phil shared how the Firesign Theatre’s surreal humor was designed not only to entertain but to provoke thought. “We were asking, ‘What is reality?’” he explained. “It’s the question you should ask every day when you get out of bed.” These words capture the essence of his work—a blend of laughter and philosophy that challenges conventional perspectives.

Phil described how technology has transformed his craft. From the days of live radio to recording film dialogue remotely, he marveled at the evolution of his industry. With characteristic wit, he recounted a time he dubbed a French comedy for Mel Brooks, only to find the humor lost on American audiences. “The test audience thought we were speaking French!” he laughed. Moments like these underscore Phil’s adaptability and humor in the face of creative challenges.

Phil also opened up about the impact of his voice acting roles, such as his long-running portrayal of Howard DeVille in Rugrats. He reflected on the joy of connecting with audiences worldwide, even decades after the show’s heyday. From cartoons to video games like Assassin’s Creed, his performances have reached far and wide, bridging generational gaps.

One of the most profound parts of our discussion was Phil’s recollection of surviving the Golden Dragon massacre in 1977. Amidst the chaos, he found solace in an unexpected synchronicity: learning that his wife was pregnant with their daughter. “Life has a way of balancing tragedy with joy,” he mused. This event, along with its psychic premonition, became the foundation of his memoir, Where’s My Fortune Cookie?

Phil’s stories often ventured into the metaphysical. He shared how the Firesign Theatre’s comedy sought to “deprogram” audiences from societal conditioning, offering a fresh lens to perceive reality. This philosophy—wrapped in humor—resonates deeply in today’s fast-paced, media-saturated world. “We were making funny connections,” he said, “exercising the brain to see the world anew.”

Beyond his creative endeavors, Phil’s zest for life shines through in his personal anecdotes. Whether reminiscing about working with Mel Brooks or delighting in his grandchildren’s fascination with technology, he embodies a boundless curiosity. His ability to balance the absurd with the profound makes his journey a testament to the power of humor and resilience.

As the episode drew to a close, one thing became clear: Phil Proctor is more than a performer; he is a philosopher of humor, an explorer of reality, and a living reminder of life’s intricate, interconnected dance. His stories inspire us to embrace curiosity, resilience, and a healthy dose of laughter.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:49
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:53
On this episode, I have a hell of a guy. He is just full of life. He honestly, he just brims with life. And I love having people like this on he is a founding member of the legendary fire sign theater. He is a voice actor in movies like Monsters Inc, Toy Story, Inside Out TV shows like the Rugrats. He was filming little dad Howard. He was he does video games like Call of Duty event warfare, Assassins Creed, brotherhood. He's even embedded into the Apple OS, can you believe that he actually pulls out the phone and we're gonna go over that too. I didn't ask me if he gets free iPhones, though. I probably should have asked that damn! Without further ado with guest, Phil Proctor.

Phil Proctor 2:34
Well, thank you very much. It's really good to be here. Well, actually, it's always good to be here because I'm at home today here in Beverly Hills, adjacent in Nice, overcast Los Angeles weather.

Dave Bullis 2:48
Isn't technology wonderful Phil where you can do interviews from the comfort of your own home now it's it's amazing, right?

Phil Proctor 2:55
Yeah, not only that, but you can do auditions from from your laptop, which I do regularly now for voiceover work or animation work. And I've actually, which we can talk about. I've actually done jobs for movies from other parts of the country on my laptop, which is unheard of. You know, like five, six years ago, you'd have to go to a studio and have a link up with the satellite to be able to do you know, a commercial or something, if you were in New York and they wanted and they cast you from California. But the technology has really taken over the industry, sometimes for the good, sometimes for the worst,

Dave Bullis 3:39
You're very right. Philly, it's technology can be a double edged sword sometimes. And, you know, I do want to talk about, you know, obviously, doing things for movies from across the country, because I've kind of gotten to that point as well where maybe, like, you know, I can help out somebody from like, for instance. And I'm not to segue too far off, but I've been able to actually help friends of mine, not even, you know, not even just like, you know, maybe recording something, but actually being able to help them. And they're across the country filming a movie, and, you know, we kind of like, you know, do a FaceTime chat or something like that, I'm able to actually do stuff like that.

Phil Proctor 4:12
Yep, that's very true. A lot of actors audition now by not Skype, but they'll record their they'll record their audition, you know, using the camera built in to their machine, and then send it to the castle record. I just had lunch with a fabulous friend of mine named Jim Messam, who, if you know his career at all, is a master of a million voices. Jim Messman, if you want to Google him, you'll be constantly surprised and amused. And he got a job doing a Johnny Carson imitation in a film about Gore Vidal with Kevin Cos, not Kevin Costner, with a famous star whose name will come to be in a minute. And I. And he did it, you know, remotely, by sending in a tape. They cast him off of the tape, and he flew to Rome, and did, you know, two and a half days in this film. So all those wonderful things can happen now. And here comes the garbage. They don't recycle me.

Dave Bullis 5:19
No, Phil, they will you're, you're a treasure. Phil, they won't. They will take you away.

Phil Proctor 5:26
Can you hear the the wonderful sounds of the garbage truck in the back?

Dave Bullis 5:31
I absolutely can. This is funny to see this. This is kind of like Steve Allen's man on the street. It's raw. Anything could happen.

Phil Proctor 5:40
No, I often feel as though my whole career is recycled. You know, I've been in the business for 60 about 65 years. I started as a child actor on a television show in New York called Uncle Danny. Reached the funnies. Elliot Gould was also on that show, and we basically would improvise in this little, kind of a closet of a studio with a big old Dumont camera with three lenses on it, and we talk about the cartoons in the New York Daily News, okay? And there'd be a girl and a guy and a guy and a girl, and that's how I got my start on local television, local live television.

Dave Bullis 6:27
So anyway, well, I mean, that's something I wanted to actually talk about, too, Phil, was you have this illustrious career. I mean, you've been in the business for over 50 years. And, I mean, you've seen, you know, all sorts of things. Seen the ups and the downs. You've seen. You know how things have evolved where, you know, I mean, let's just, you know, like all, like Uncle Dudley reads the funnies. You know that that was, I mean, there's probably, I don't know how many channels when that started, and now, you know, going to now, now there's Netflix, YouTube, and then there's all, there's like, you know, you turn on your TV, and there's like, 1001 channels.

Phil Proctor 7:00
Remember Proctor and Bergman predicted that in TV or not TV in like 1973 or something like that, we predicted hundreds and hundreds of channels. We didn't think that there'd be 1000s and 1000s of channels, but then we didn't account for inflation. So there you go, for those people who might not know who, who I am talking about and who you are talking to. I'm a member of a group called the Fire sign Theater, which was a four man satirical comedy group. Sadly, two of our members have now left us for parts unknown, and only i and another partner named David Osman remain. So we now call our group the fire sign theater, or something like it, which is a parody of our first album, which was waiting for the electrician or someone like him. Okay? And the next time that the what's left of the group, which had a 50 year career, is going to perform will be on September 28 at the Library of Congress, where David and I will be doing the history of the art of radio, followed by some excerpts from our home movies, which have been released on a two DVD set called everything you know is wrong, the declassified fire sign theater. And then we'll have a Q and A with all of the people who were there. We're happy to say that our appearance sold out in like three days, which, of course, was helped for the fact that it's free. But nonetheless, we were pleased to see that there, you know, it was enough demand for us that the tickets went very quickly, and it'll also be, I believe, simulcast and, you know, archive, because, after all, it is the Library of Congress. They inducted another one of the fire sign theater albums called Don't crush that dwarf, hand me the pliers into their hysterical recordings. Oh, party, their historical recordings back in like 2007 and so they are now in the process, we hope, of acquiring our archives, the fireside theater archives. So if you don't know the fire sign theater, go to firesigntheater.com, or just Google us and who somebody just did, and you'll find out all kinds of crazy things about us. And you'll be able to, you know, to see stuff that we've done and hear stuff that we've done on on the web. And it is, Oh, and there's also 24, hour, seven day a week, fire sign theater radio site you can go to where there's a constantly, again, recycled playing of our radio shows and records and things and excerpts from our records. We also have a book which you can get at our site called Duke of madness motors, which contains an mp three of 80 hours of our radio shows. And it's a very colorful book with interviews and pictures and collages and things about our radio years.

Because that's how we got started. We started on local radio, KPFK, listener supported radio in Los Angeles back in like 1964 or something like that, and and that led to a career in recording with Columbia Records and then touring and films and, oh, 50 years of tom foolery and fun.

Dave Bullis 10:35
You know, you mentioned the prediction Phil of all the different TV stations. Did you ever think that, you know there'd be so much like reality TV? Did you ever you know what it'd be like? Yeah, I don't think that that is something that came out of left field for me.

Phil Proctor 10:50
Yeah, it's true. Now, I was the announcer on Big Brother for three years. In the early years of Big Brother, I think it was in their fourth season, fifth or fifth, sixth season, something like that. And to me, that was the best of the reality television, because before it's gotten very kind of convoluted and and more produced these days, although it's still a fun show, but in the in the early days, it was more about real people, you know, who wanted to put themselves into this game like situation and compete with other people. And it was a lot and and they were all isolated in this wonderful, crazy house with the cameras all hidden behind it. I could walk around and look through the two the two way mirrors and see what they were doing in there. It was really a gas, but, but reality television has indeed taken off to the extent that we now have a reality president, we have a rant reality TV president, and that is the most unreal thing of all, right, yeah. You know, the lines between entertainment and reality have become a news and you name it, have become more and more and more and more blurred so that they're the fire sign theater asked in one of its very earliest albums, I think, and don't crush the dwarf enemy the pliers, the question, what is reality? It's the it's the major question you should ask yourself every day when you get out of bed, what is what is my reality today? For me, what is reality? And that's become an increasingly difficult question to answer in the face of our the the media overload, the world of the internet, our second album is called, How can you be in two places at once, when you're not anywhere at all. And that's exactly where we find ourselves. Now, in fact, you and I are representing it as we speak.

Dave Bullis 12:50
Yeah, very, very, very true, Phil, you know, and you touched on something too. I often find, you know, that comedy as a whole, you know, it can be so philosophical, but sometimes, you know, during award seasons and stuff like that, comedy sort of gets, you know, pushed aside for the drama or something like, you know, of that nature. But, but you know, somebody, by the way, it's somebody that you mentioned in your book. By the way, you mentioned Mel Brooks and, you know, and he has taken that too to say what you have where it's like, if you want to, you know, you can make a really great philosophical statement. But also, if you wrap it in comedy, I think the message just gets through so much better. You know what I mean?

Phil Proctor 13:27
Yes, certainly. And of course, Woody Allen is another classic example of that, but, but Mel Brooks is more of a surrealist than Allen is in the Blazing Saddles, he absolutely exploded all of the precepts of the classic western movie, you know, to make all kinds of wonderful social and satirical points. And that's what endeared me to him, certainly. And of course, the 2000 year old man is another classic example of that kind of wonderful surrealistic comedy that he and and his dear partner, Carl Reiner put together. We fire sign theater have been nominated for Grammys three times for Best Comedy recording, and we lost to the 2000 year old man at one at one of the ceremonies. But hey, could we've lost to to Weird Al, who's another great surrealist and a friend, and to Mel Brooks and Carl Reiter. So you know, it's, it's not exactly chopped liver. It's okay. I did a film with with Brooks, which was an overdubbing of a very famous French comedy called the visitors, le visitor, which was a hit for gourmand production company in France, the biggest grossing comedy in the history of French cinema, back in what the 80s, maybe early 90s, and they decided to overdub the film in. English. So they hired Mel Brooks, and he cast a bunch of people, a lot of my friends and myself. And he thought it would be funny if we overdubbed it with a French accent. Because, you know, of course, the French accent is very funny, you know, clues, oh, it's not my dog. You know, he's a funny accent. So we all are speaking like this, with a French accent. The problem is that you are putting word into the mouth of character on the screen. What are all ever talking? Are already talking, you see, and in this particular film, the French that they were using, for the most part, was a very fast a Parisian French on per, neu or disa so and so it was. Everything was very fast, so we had to speak very quickly with the French accent in order to make it match with the moving of the lips. Well, when they finally finished the film, they showed it to a test audience in Encino, and they thought we were speaking French. The film was never released. It's, it's Bell's only failure, my only failure. But it sure was fun to do. God, it was fun working with him.

Dave Bullis 16:15
So how, like, for instance, Phil, how would you go about like, even, even being like approach for something like that, does milk find you and say, you know, Phil, we got to work together on something. And then you just sort of go and you basically, of course, you're gonna say yes, and you just, and you, and you just go from there, or was there, like a whole audition process for that?

Phil Proctor 16:32
It's always an audition process. It's, it's, it's humiliating, debilitating. It is seldom, I wouldn't say it's not. Now I think it's a little different. But back then, even if they knew the fire sign theater and knew the Cape of my capabilities as a voice actor, the there are other people in the chain of command who may say, the fireside, what? Okay, so Mel said, oh, you should, this guy is great. He could be great for it. So we'd have to do an audition, and then they could, Mel, could play the audition for the producers. And producers say, okay, Mel, I got it. You hire him. Okay? And that happened more often than not. Now, for instance, I was in a film called The Adventures of Rocky and Bullwinkle. Okay? Which, what was his name, anyway, which was directed by a fellow who hired me, des makanov. That's his name. I was hired to read the part of Boris Baden off with various actresses who were auditioning for the role of Natasha. Okay, so I am doing bodies about enough, and reading the lines from the script, you know. And these, and these famous actresses were coming in and reading for the part. I mean, top notch, a rated actresses, Renee Russo finally got it, and she was hysterical in the part. I think that that she was probably the best thing in the film, but, but I was astonished that I was reading with these tremendous actresses. Some of them came in and they'd memorize the material. Some of them came in with just the script pages in their hand. Some of them came in with the script pages written out in their own hands so that they could read it more easily, you know. But they were all reading for the role. And that's, and that's the nature of it, you know, yeah,

Dave Bullis 18:31
it's, it's amazing though, when you just, you're part of that addition process, and, you know, you don't know who's going to come through that door. Sometimes you don't, I mean, and, and I've actually, you know, I've been on both sides of that as well, too. Phil, yeah, yeah. And it's just, you know, you just, sometimes you're like, Oh, my, this person's auditioning. Well, my God, why aren't they more stuff, you know? And it's So,

Phil Proctor 18:52
Listen, there was a time. Now, first of all, I have to say, I don't know if you know this, but yesterday, Dick Van Dyke performed at a club out here in the valley called vitellos with a band of his own assembling. And he's 92 years old. Okay, Dick Van Dyke. But there was a time maybe 30 years ago, when I went in to read for a television show which had, you know, like 12 lines, or something like that, and Dick Van Dyke was sitting in the hallway with the other actors reading for this tiny role. So you see, it's, it's, it's indiscriminate sometimes. But as everybody says, What's the secret to being a success in our business, persistence and confidence, right?

Dave Bullis 19:46
I have that first part down, Phil, but that second part that's very elusive.

Phil Proctor 19:51
Well, it's like Groucho Marx used to always make wise cracks all the time, wherever he was his brain.

Was always in the comic groove, and he was always in effect, trying out material. And his his excuse for this was, you know, like being always on, was that he, even though maybe 60% of what he said fell on deaf ears, wasn't funny, that 40% that worked was his his trade, okay, it would go into a show or into a movie, right? And so, in a way, you have to just kind of let it, let it flow, let it happen, and be confident that eventually somebody is going to hire you. I remember when I was a commercial actor, and I did a lot of TV commercials and scores and scores of radio commercials at the height of my career, but the television commercials are the hardest, because you you'd have to go in and physically audition. And the people who are casting you would say, Okay, you have to come in dressed like a fisherman, or you have to come in in your pajamas, you know, because it's a and you go, why? Why? Why can't I come in looking like a fisherman or, you know, looking like I'm in my pajamas? But no, no, no, no. The casting director, our agents would say, no, no. They want to see you in character. Okay, so you're doing all the work for them. Well, at a certain point, I got burned out. I said, I just can't do this anymore. It's humiliating, and I wasn't getting any jobs. So I look back at my date book, and I looked at how many commercial auditions I had to on camera auditions. I had to go on before I got one. And it was something like, oh, I don't know, let's say 23 and I looked at how many I'd gone on, and I'd gone on like 21 so I said, Okay, I'll go on a couple more auditions. And wouldn't you know it, I got the next two jobs I read for So, you see, it's a question of attrition as well. You see, if you go into you read for something, the guy who is perfect for the part, the guy who is always in his pajamas and looks like he just got out of bed, he's going to get the job. He's also going to get a job as a, you know, I'm talking about guys who are either character actors or all American looking guys and gals, right? They're going to get a car commercial, fast food commercial, a breakfast food commercial, you name it. They're going to get it because they look the part, and everybody loves them, all right, but, then they can't do that anymore. They've got a car commercial, they've got a breakfast commercial, they've got so and so and so and so. So when you go in, if you're second their second choice, you become the first choice because they're out of competition, and that's how it happens. You see,

Dave Bullis 23:00
That's a great way to think about it. Phil, see, because you've been around for so many years, you know those secret ingredients, you know, persistence, confidence, and think of it as a war of attrition. I'm going to keep that. Phil, that's a really great way to think of it.

Phil Proctor 23:13
Since I know your show, you get into the nuts and bolts of various aspects of the business, the film business, you know, from editing to acting to lighting, and you name it. But the other little, little secret about it is you have to, you have to know how to use a variety of skills to get the work. I would find, for instance, that when, let's say, the acting gigs dried up for me, because maybe the nature of television had changed, and I wasn't getting as many guest starring parts on shows like all in the family, which I which I did, and other, you know, top rated shows, I would say, What the heck am I going to do? And that's when I turned my attention to a voiceover work. I'll concentrate on the voiceover work. I'll get myself an agent, and I'll put together a tape, and I'll go out, and I'll aggressively pursue that line of work. And then that paid off for me. And when if that dried up, I go, Well, let's see what's happening in the acting business, and maybe I can get on stage in a play. And I got on stage in a play. Another skill I have a musical, I can sing, so I get seen in a musical singing, and I get a musical commercial. Okay, so one, you must use as many skills as you have and juggle them. And feel free that when one area dries up, turn your attention into another. That's why I've never really had a manager, which is a good thing and a bad thing, but because it's good, because I get to keep most of my money, it's a bad thing, because managers can do a lot for you, especially in a film career. And I regret the fact that one point in my career I turned down management, but I managed my own career Okay, and being a renaissance man, I was able to. To apply my skills and focus my skills to the various areas of the business that seem to be opening to me at the time during my long career,

Dave Bullis 25:11
And also to Phil. Something I've noticed too is you've taken the bull by the horn, so to speak. And you know when maybe you if there wasn't a an audition happening, you know, you worked on your own, your own material in, you know, maybe you know the fireside theater, you know you basically, you casted yourself. There was a there was an episode, Episode 99 I had on Morgan J Freeman. And he has a great saying, green light yourself. He goes, if you have a script, green let it yourself, and don't wait for anybody else. Just take the bull by the horns and just go for it.

Phil Proctor 25:44
Absolutely correct. I saw a wonderful movie which I recommend everybody called In Search of Fellini, which is written by Nancy Cartwright, the voice of Bart Simpson and Nancy. It is a film which is based on a true story that she, as a young girl in Ohio, became enamored of the films of Federico Fellini and decided to go over to Italy on her own, supported by her mother, in order to meet the Great man. And this extraordinary film, which is both beautifully, beautifully made funny and heartbreaking at the same time, tells the story of that adventure. Well, Nancy first translated this into a one woman show, maybe 25 years ago, okay? And it and then based on that show, which she taped and studied and everything, she decided to make this movie. And now, because of the great success of The Simpsons, she's able to she was able to create her own production company, spotted cow productions, and she was able to put the financial energy, as well as her brilliant artistic energies into the creation of this movie, an absolute example of what you just spoke of in terms of fire sign theater. One of the reasons I became I committed myself, so to speak, to the lunacy, to the mad house of the four other fire signs, I'm a Leo, two Sagittarians and an Aries was because we could be our own boss. We were our own producers. Basically, we'd hire a producer for ears and to help us with, you know, the work you were doing, but we, we were writing it. We were acting in it. We were doing almost all the voices, except for a lot of the women. When we could cast women, we did, we did a lot of money Python women's voices too, as you know, and and we could control the budget and lay out the budget. We we could hire the studio we were working in. We could control the sound effects, of the music, all the elements of the production, so that there wasn't anybody from the outside telling us what we had to do. We were creating our own movies for the mind with all of our own skills, and that was very satisfying, and that's one of the reasons why I gave up other aspects of my career, like a movie career and more television and more of stage, because the fire sign ultimately kind of satisfied all of those cravings. Since we toured, we performed all over the country, and then later as Proctor and Bergman, a two man act, half the witch of the fire sign theater, we were able to tour even more easily and play places like Canada and Hawaii, because in our group, one of the members, Phil Austin, who is unfortunately my, one of my late partners, he didn't like to fly, so he would put his dogs and his wife into a van, and they would drive from one venue to another when fire sign theater was touring, okay? And that meant that the rest of us, the other three guys, we could fly into a venue, go on a radio show, promote, okay, and then Phil would catch up with us in time to do the show. We made it work, but it's still it limited the the range of success that fire sign theater could have.

Dave Bullis 29:19
So and now, if you if you were to have, like, started something like fire sign theater today, you know, as we talk about technology, it's almost like what some others have done, where you could actually just, you know, record an episode, upload it to your website, or, you know, stuff like, all that, stuff like that. I see more and more artists doing, the guys from Mr. Science Theater, they've done stuff like that, but, but, you know, but as you know, as you toured, you know, all around, you know, all around the country to and then as you tour around we, I mean, what was your, your, your reaction to, the response of everything. I mean, were you? Were you, were you, like, just blown away about, you know, how big this had become.

Phil Proctor 30:00
Well, it's a good question. Dave, yes, we were because we didn't your question actually has created several little paths I'd like to touch upon, and I may have to ask you to ask the question again. But basically, our success on records, we were given a spoken arts record contract after our first album, waiting for the electrician or someone like him by an art by a producer at Columbia named John McClure, very respected producer, because they were going to drop us from the album, you know, four guys doing crazy, surrealistic comedy. What's that all about? And he said, these guys are geniuses. They're revolutionizing the recording of comedy in the industry. And you've we've got to keep them on, so I'll give them a spoken arts concert contract, which meant that we got free, unlimited studio time, and that's what allowed us to write our albums. Go in record, go back and write some more. Go in and record. And that's why we could make these layered, complex, surrealistic albums, surrealistic in the in the style of the goon shows and later Maddie Python, who are also surrealistically oriented, but we're lucky enough to be able to do it visually. So when we started to tour, because we became successful, people were playing our records uncensored in their own homes, right? We never expected that we'd be broadcast because we were using, you know, obscene language and things sweet language, I should say, and our albums were very revolutionary, and sometimes, you know, touched on social issues that were touchy during the the Vietnamese War period. But all of a sudden, a little thing called FM radio appeared, and suddenly in college stations all over the country, kids could play a 40 minute side of our record without commercial breaks, and people started listening to us in the college dorms and saying, Who are these guys? Then they go out and buy our records, and, you know, and, and, and we became famous because of that, and that's what allowed us to tour and to meet our our audience. Okay, so it was a conflux, a confluence, Congress, if you will, of of technology that allowed us to reach a particular audience, which I call a bad head cult, basically, you know, hip hip pockets on the backside of America, all right, because we were also the only comedians who were were reaching to a higher level of comedy. Nobody else was doing. You know what Bergman used to call college boy comedy, okay, Arcane comedy. And even though we, you know, we were, we were not, we would shame, shamelessly, stoop to punning whenever we possibly could, most of our albums in the storytelling had were, were redolent and redundant with many, many, many levels of meaning and understanding. So you could put our records on and play them over and over again and get different messages and different meanings and different jokes out of them. And this is even true if you played the record in a group of people, because there were people in that group who would get certain jokes that other people wouldn't get. And somehow, through the brain meld of being in their presence, it became funnier for you as well, see. So that's why I always consider what we do to be kind of mind messed minded, mind manifesting comedy, or brain exercising comedy, because we're making funny connections in the comedy that we're that we're writing in the writing itself that exercises your brain to make synapses. That is the way the brain works. The brain works by making unconscious and conscious connections to everything. And that's what we were, do we do? We did in our writing and fire sign theater, bingo!

Dave Bullis 34:27
It's that, you know, comedy, and you're able to put that idea like we were saying earlier. That's what I really like to Phil, is, you know, you're you're able to make a joke. When people say, hey, you know what? There's some truth to that. There's some truth to what they're saying, you know. And then they sort of, you know, they start thinking more and more and, you know, as we talk, you know, you know stuff about the, you know, fire sign theater, or even as we were discussing Mel Brooks, you know, a lot of you know, there was, there was that satire, there was a surrealism, where, on the surface, it made you laugh, but then as you started to sort of dig a little deeper, you're like, oh, there's a lot more going on here than yes, yeah.

Phil Proctor 34:59
One of the other things that we did very consciously was to parody regular commercial radio, News Radio, or I should say, news broadcasts and standard forms of entertainment, films and television. The album that was our breakthrough album was Nick danger third eye, okay? Because it was a parody of a noir detective radio show. And everybody in our generation who grew up on the radio could identify with that format, okay, but what we were often doing in all of our albums, including, I think, Rob bozos on this bus, which predicted, by the way, the computer revolution and was, and was and picked up as a fan Steve Jobs. And I'll demonstrate something bizarre that came out of that we were actually deprogramming you. We were un brainwashing you, because people who had been raised in the commercial society at that time in the 60s, particularly 60s and early 70s were, you know, we're taking for granted, in a way, that everything that we heard on the radio that was selling us things was true. You know, we had bad breath. We had under our we stank our feet didn't smell it smelled bad. We needed a fancy car, and we needed a new refrigerator with an ice maker and all. So we'd use those forms in order to kind of say, No, you don't. No, you don't. You might need something more important than that, like maybe a good marriage you know, or a girlfriend you know, or a boyfriend, I don't know, but it's yours. What is reality? What is your reality? Now, in the terms of the of the album, I think we're all bozos on this bus. I'm going to, I have in my hand an iPhone, and I'm going to ask a question of Siri. Here we go. Here we go. Or I'm going to make a statement to Siri. This is worker speaking, hello, see what you got. Clem, what function can I perform for you? Lol, hello, a Clem, what function can I perform for you? Lots of laughs. This is a reference to a character that I created in this album. I think we're all bozos on this bus, which as a character named Clem and I am a this the back story is I was a worker at this future Fair, which is a government fair that is designed to sell people on the idea that everything is going great. There's no unemployment, and, you know, there's going to be a job for everybody in the world. In the future, everything is going to be great, and it's like a Disneyland that the government creates with holograms walking around, making you happy, and all kinds of rides you can go on and and I come in because I've been fired, and I become a hacker, and I plant a virus in the mainframe computer, which is the direct readout, memory, computer doctor, memory, and I bring the whole system down. 1971 we predicted all of that. Okay. Now, Steve Jobs, I met him. He was a fan of this work, and it helped to inspire him to continue to develop the home computer. Okay? And I met him when I did voices for IT'S A Bug's Life, which Dave Osman did voices for as well Pixar, because he bought into he bought stock in Pixar. And I met him at the opening night party up in San Francisco, and he came up to me, or I came up to him to say, Mr. Jobs, nice to meet you. And he said, I'm a big fan of yours, and I that's when I learned he was a fire sign theater fan. So he put this hello. Ah Clem what function can I perform for you? Answer into Siri as an homage to the fire sign Theater Talk about cultural impact.

Dave Bullis 39:05
I was just about to say that, Phil, I've never have anyone have had on the show. I've never had anybody who has been embedded into the to the Apple iOS or to have, I mean that that is, that is freaking phenomenal. That is mind blowing,

Phil Proctor 39:22
It is. And the other thing that the the virus that I planted in our album is a question that the computer can't answer with a yes or a no. And the question was, why does the porridge bird lay his egg in the air? Okay, it's a Zen question. If you buy my book, where's my fortune cookie, which will be on Amazon after the 28 you'll find out the reason behind that particular koan. But if you say that to Siri, she will often say to you, you can't shut me down that easily.

So it's really exciting, you know, to be a part of the culture like that.

Dave Bullis 40:14
Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely amazing. Do you like? Do you show that like to any I don't know if you have grandkids, but I don't know if you do. You show that to them. Or

Phil Proctor 40:24
I show it when I go in to to a Mac store anywhere in the world, you know, to get a battery or something, I always show it to the people, the person who's waiting on me, okay, I share it with with one of the one of the workers at the back store, my grandkids. I have two grandkids, Bowen, who is eight and Audrey, who is six, and they live real close to me now, which is wonderful. My daughter, Kristen. Kristen proctor was an actress. She's been raising her kids now so but you can google Kristen proctor. She was on the wire, and even topless, she's a beautiful, beautiful girl, and now an even more beautiful woman of my Norwegian wife. So she's, you know, a honey blonde. But anyway, Mike, those kids, they know much more than I do. They're, you know, their faces are in these machines all the time. So much so that Jeffrey and Kristen have to wean them away from the iPads or from the games. You know, their favorite show that they like to watch online, I guess it is, is a show where these two characters, Jen and Ben, I don't know who they are, are talking while they're playing video games. Do you know about that?

Dave Bullis 41:45
Yeah, I've actually, I do know about that.

Phil Proctor 41:48
Okay, that's their favorite show. That's their favorite show. Besides playing video games, they like to hear these two imaginary characters, these two people, reality television. Okay, playing the games and making comments on it. So reality television has even invaded that area now. The other thing is, of course, I've done voices for all kinds of video games, and my longest run was as Dr. Vidick in Assassin's Creed. And what was fun about that was that I would wear this helmet that was developed in Montreal that has, you know, a feature capturing capabilities, computer capabilities, and so my facial expressions as I'd read the lines for Dr Vitt, the villain in Assassin's Creed, would be translated into a computer rendering of my head and my face, and then they would lay the character's face over my face. So when you play that game, all the expressions that Dr Vitt is making are my expressions. That's another what is reality for you? And I guess the thing that most people out there would would know me best for is that I was Howard on the Rugrats for 14 years. I'm the father of Phil and Lil, okay, and we did what, three movies and and and 14 years, or we had a little break, so maybe seven or eight years of of cartoons on Nickelodeon. They're still being aired, and they're aired all over the world. I get requests for autographs from China, from Poland, from Russia, from South America. I mean, England, Australia. You get so many countries where, unexpectedly, they're showing this cartoon. And I speak seven languages, so it's really fun for me to be able to write back in Russian to these people and communicate in in all these different languages, or to learn, you know, a little bit from a new language, so that I can communicate to them in their own tongue. And it's, it's just really fun. And I get, I got a stack of residuals today from Rugrats. Now the residuals, because it's not a network program, are like $1.56 10.59 12.30 .62 cents. But you know, it does add up, and it's thrilling to see that I get a stack of these residuals showing that it's still playing in the United States and all over the world.

Dave Bullis 44:26
You know, I do. I actually, I was a big fan of Rugrats growing up Phil, and you know it, I do remember you actually playing the dad of Phil and Lil and

Phil Proctor 44:39
Lots of other parts too, that you probably don't know the same. Nancy Cartwright, you know, she plays part, but she plays a slew of other parts as well. You know, they they take advantage of our voice talents as often as they can and give us multiple fun roles to play.

Dave Bullis 44:56
Yeah, and very true. I've noticed that too with cactus area. Was also on The Simpsons and, and obviously, you know, you've done work on Finding Nemo, you know, and you know, a couple of Disney films. And, I mean, you know, again, it's just, it's, you never know. That's why I always say Phil. That's why I was familiar with your work. And I was like, you know, he, he, Phil, you've done more than I thought you did. I was like, I might even pay attention. He's showing up everywhere. And I'm not even, I'm not even, I'm not even noticing it.

Phil Proctor 45:22
Well, the fun thing was, besides getting a chance to do at the first, the first Disney film I did was the, what's it called, The something down under the, not the remainders down under the the anyway, you know what I'm talking about. This the done. It does down under, oh, I can't remember. Anyway, it was followed by Beauty and the Beast, okay, and Beauty and the Beast was the breakthrough computer animation movie. And it was astonishing to work on that film. And then the Pixar movies started coming in Toy Story. And as I mentioned, well, I just mentioned a bunch of monsters incorporated Finding Nemo later on, the most recent film I did for Disney Pixar was inside out. Okay. But my, my days doing all kinds of car of animated voices and voices for movies and television ended about, I'd say, five or six years ago. You can hear my voice is tired today, but that's just because I'm talking a lot. But for the most part, it's okay. I had a terrific run doing voices. I started actually, on a show in New York called he, I think, here and now, no, wasn't called You Are there something like that? I did a Russian accented voiceover for a segment about the Second World War, and I was, I was 22 years old, fresh out of college. I was playing a juvenile delinquent on a soap opera called Edge of Night, okay? And then later went on to understudy Ralph, the singing Nazi on the sound of music. But I go into a studio in New York, and I worked for 15 minutes, and I made $365 and that's when I first went to myself, hmm, there's something to look into here. But it took me many, many more years before I was able to to really get into the voiceover industry seriously, and it happened pretty much after the fire sign theater. But I'm very grateful for all those wonderful years that I worked with with great improv groups adding crazy voices and different languages and different accents to the Muppets movies. And, my goodness, if you go and see my list of credits, you'll see that you can also visit me at Planet proctor.com where I post a weekly a monthly blog now, but I've been doing that for 20 years, and it's one way of keeping up with what I'm doing. I'm also on television right now. I should mention on a PBS documentary about Francis Scott Key by Philip Marshall called Francis Scott Key after the song. It's a three part documentary done in an interview style with the ghosts of famous people who lived in Francis Scott Key's time, including a character named John Randolph of Roanoke, who's the character I play. And Marshall interviews us as ghosts in our own words. We're speaking pretty much our own words. John Randolph had a very high voice, almost annoying, and he was quite a character. He was a senator in Virginia for many years, and he would hold forth on the floor of the Senate with his two white Afghan hounds and his black serving boy, his black servant dressed in Chinese, in a Chinese costume. And you'll get to see all of that in this amazing documentary. I can't tell you when it'll be on your local PBS station, but if you go to the website Fs key after the song, you'll find out, and it's really something, something to see. It's a revolutionary documentary,

Dave Bullis 49:21
Yeah, and I'll be look on the lookout for that, Phil, and you know, I am gonna link, by the way, everybody to all the things that Phil and I are talking about, all the websites, everything in the show notes. By the way, I'm always very good at that, Phil, I'm always very good at linking everything in the show notes. But my pleasure, Phil and I know we're starting to run out of time. Phil, so I just want to ask, you know, obviously your book is coming out September 28 of this year, 2017 where's my fortune cookie? You have quotes on the back from, from Weird Al Yankovic, Penn Jillette, and I'm you know, of all you know, all these, these, these great. Know people, uh, you know, have, you know, giving, giving you all these, these quotes, Tom

Phil Proctor 50:03
And Tom Hartman, too.

Yeah, yeah, politically, one of my heroes. And tell these people, which is great,

Dave Bullis 50:23
Yeah, that's actually, was gonna ask you was, you know, of, you know, of all the things in the book, you know, I mean, you touch on so much because, like, like, for one, I mean, I had in my listeners to talk about, but I know you had Amish upbringing, and I was gonna try to touch on that. But we, you know, see how quickly these interviews go it's like you blink Phil and they're over.

Phil Proctor 50:42
Well, I'm 77 years old. I've got a lot to talk about because I can still remember it. That's the good part. And yes, I'm of Amish Irish ancestry. And if you want to read about that, you can go online and find a book called Rosanna of the Amish written by my great uncle Joseph Yoder, which tells about the roots of that Amish Irish connection back in the 19th century, which is very unusual. And I guess that's why I'm so unusual.

Dave Bullis 51:13
Yeah, there's always amazing ties that tie in, Phil, there's always amazing tie ins. And about the book too. Is there anything? Is there any story you know, just as you talk about the book, as we sort of wrap up this whole interview, is there any sort of one story that really stands out that you really you just couldn't wait to retell?

Phil Proctor 51:35
Sure! Well, the fact is, the book is called where's my fortune cookie. It has on the front cover a picture of Peter Bergman and myself hiding under a restaurant table with Chinese food on top of it. It relates to the fact that Peter and I survived the golden dragon massacre in San Francisco, five killed, 11 wounded back in 1977 I think it was, and that particular gangland shooting that we were unfortunately in the middle of and hiding under the table occurred on the same day that I learned that my Norwegian wife, Barbro, was pregnant with my daughter Kristen, who is living nearby now. And the really weird thing about it, which is all recounted in the book, is that it was psychically predicted to me by a friend about a month and a half before it happened. And all of this is in the book, and it's called where's my fortune cookie because when Peter Bergman, who died of leukemia about five years ago at one of his memorial services, a friend of ours, one of the patrons of the fire sign theater made it, passed out fortune cookies to everybody with Peter Bergman's date of birth and death and a line a title of One of one of the fireside theater albums. And I asked her, I said, Gretchen, that was really sweet of you to do the fortune cookie thing. And I said, You did that because of the Golden Dragon massacre, didn't you? And she said, what? I said, you know Peter and I survived a Chinese gangland shooting. She said, You did. I never heard of that. I said, well, well, why did you, why did you make the fortune cookies? Then she said, Peter came to me in a dream, and he told me, I never got my fortune cookie. And it's all true that the book is filled with stories like that. Things like that have happened to me my entire life, and it ain't over yet.

Dave Bullis 53:51
You'll have to come back on, Phil, when you write this sequel and for the next, for the next 50 years that you're in show business.

Phil Proctor 53:58
Well, listen, when the book comes out. I'll be back in town probably at the end of October, yeah, so maybe when we get into the holiday season, we can figure out another excuse to talk together again.

Dave Bullis 54:12
Phil, I would love to talk to you anytime, because, like I said, there's a bunch of questions I didn't get to ask you, but I would love to chat again, and and just in case people didn't hear it the first time. Phil, where can people find you out online

Phil Proctor 54:25
planetproctor.com, is the best way. And if you like what you see there, and you want to subscribe to the newsletter, it's free. You just send me. There's my email address there, and you just send me your address and say, I want to, want to become a planet here, send me the planet, and I'll, I'll see that you're in a mailing group,

Dave Bullis 54:47
And everyone, I will link to that in the show notes, along with the the link to pre order Phil's book. Where is my fortune cookie? Out September the 28th of this year 2017 Phil Proctor it has been an absolute blast Sir.

Phil Proctor 55:00
Thank you very much. I hope I didn't talk your ear off.

Dave Bullis 55:03
No, not at all, not at all.

Phil Proctor 55:05
Great talking to you, Dave.

Dave Bullis 55:08
Oh, thank you so much, folks. Great talking to you as well. And you know I'm going to be on the and whenever you're in town, ever want to come back, please let me know.

Phil Proctor 55:15
Thank you. We'll do it again. Okay, bye for now!

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BPS 443: Breaking the Mold: Lily Yasuda and Michael Wolfe’s Journey to Crafting the Anti-Rom-Com

October 30, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

On today’s episode, we welcome the dynamic duo, Lily Yasuda and Michael Wolfe, two inspiring filmmakers who have decided to take the road less traveled by creating their own feature film, Like Love. Their journey is one of collaboration, determination, and creativity—filled with moments of laughter and the occasional unexpected hurdle.

From the outset, you’ll sense the chemistry between Lily and Michael. They first crossed paths during their time at Chapman University, bonding over vulnerable and humorous writing assignments in a creative writing class. Their shared passion for storytelling sparked not only a friendship but also a creative partnership. This partnership culminated in the idea for Like Love, a project born out of their desire to challenge traditional romantic comedy tropes. “We wanted to tell a story that feels real and honest,” Lily shares, “about friendships and the complexities of human connection.”

At its heart, Like Love is what they call an “anti-romantic comedy.” Drawing inspiration from classics like When Harry Met Sally, Lily and Michael aim to flip the script on the genre. Instead of perpetuating the myth that friendship between men and women inevitably leads to romance, their film explores the beauty of platonic relationships. As Michael explains, “It’s about two friends trying to fall in love and realizing they’re better off as friends. That’s the kind of story we don’t see enough.”

Their filmmaking journey hasn’t been without its challenges. Crowdfunding has been a pivotal part of bringing Like Love to life. Lily and Michael describe the process as “a full-time job in itself,” requiring not only meticulous planning but also a willingness to be vulnerable and open about their creative vision. They’ve leaned heavily on their network for support, finding generosity in unexpected places. “The community in Boise has been incredible,” says Lily. “People here are so supportive, offering locations, resources, and even homemade meals for the crew.”

Despite the logistical hurdles, their passion for storytelling shines through. Michael, the film’s director, admits that directing a micro-budget feature comes with unique pressures. “We’re all wearing multiple hats,” he notes, “but it’s an amazing experience to work so closely with a team that believes in the project.” Lily, who also stars as the film’s lead, balances her roles as actor, writer, and producer with grace, emphasizing the importance of collaboration in every aspect of the project.

As they reflect on their experiences, one thing becomes clear: Like Love is more than just a film; it’s a testament to the power of community and perseverance. Lily and Michael hope their story inspires other aspiring filmmakers to take the leap. “Making a movie isn’t easy,” Lily acknowledges, “but if you’re passionate about your story, you’ll find a way to make it happen.”

Please enjoy my conversation with Lily Yasuda and Michael Wolfe.

Right-click here to download the MP3

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:54
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:58
Under this week's episode, I have two people who decided to self produce their own movie because they saw that as the only alternative. They wanted to go out there and make something. They wanted to go out there and actually see something be made, and not just talk about it and not just write about it. You know, you actually want to see things get made. My first guest, because there's two of them. My first guest is a writer, actor and filmmaker from Boise, Idaho. She graduated summa cum laude from Chapman University, and we'll be making her on screen debut in the movie like love. My other guest is a writer, producer, director who has made his slew of short films and documentaries. He graduated with a PFA in film production from Chapman University. He is currently interning, I believe, at Scott Rudin productions, and he's actually a Fulbright semi finalist, which is actually pretty cool. So we're going to talk all about, you know, going to production companies. We're going to talk about film school hangover. We're going to talk about self production and their new project, which is on scene and spark right now, called like love, with guests Lily Yasuda and Michael Wolfe.

Lily Yasuda 3:00
Only good things. Marty, super great. He's actually more of Michael's friend than mine. You had him as a professor?

Michael Wolfe 3:07
Yeah! No, he Marty. So Marty was the production coordinator at Chapman University, where Lily and I both went to school and met for the project. And he has a lot of experience with crowdfunding, which is something we're doing for the movie we're making. And I had gotten to know him through through the school, and we were putting together a team of advisors for the project. And since he has experience with crowdfunding, he seemed like a logical bet. And one of the things we were talking to was Marty. Who do you know that we can tell more people about this kind of thing that we're doing, and he was more than happy to help, because Marty's just the nicest guy on the planet. But he did talk a lot of smack on you.

Lily Yasuda 3:49
He was like, Whatever you do, don't talk to Dave, because he's terrible. So we went to you immediately, and here we are. So we hope we don't get in trouble with Marty, but

Dave Bullis 3:59
Exactly you have to outsmart him. You do the exact opposite of what he suggests

Lily Yasuda 4:03
Exactly. That is exactly what we learned in film school, and here we are making a movie. So I don't know what could go wrong, but so far so good.

Dave Bullis 4:11
Yeah, I know Marty for years, and Marty is a really great guy, and I'm actually happy that you know you were able to be taught by somebody who not just talks the talk, but also walks the walk, because Marty's actually made films. He's actually crowdfunding things before for listeners of the podcast, they kind of know my history of you know, I didn't go to film school, but I did teach film school stuff, and what happens is, I have a kind of a love hate relationship with that, because oftentimes they hire these colleges, hire professors who don't know what they're doing. That's the black mark of a lot of a lot of colleges. That's a dirty little secret. They don't we didn't know about. But anyways, I'm sorry, Mike, what were you about to say?

Michael Wolfe 4:56
Oh, no, that's, that's absolutely that's absolutely true. Uh. Right? And just like, it's a, I think, I think it's partially because film is just so it's still very new to the world, you know, like, a lot of, like, really, only the private colleges have caught on to it, and even then, like, a lot of the people they get to teach it are, like, you know, they're, they're people who have tried and decided, like, I can't do this full time, so I just want to, like, you know, help other people, and it's easier for them because they're probably, they're not as hot in the industry anymore. But though it's just such a new concept, it's very, it's very touch and go where you like, you really have to do your research. And the Hollywood Reporter, which is, like, the go to for a lot of people, like, that's how, yeah, we found Chapman. Like, yeah, totally that. Uh, that's just like, you know, staffed by people who all come from USC and the bigger schools, and so they're just going to promote their own. And it's like,

Lily Yasuda 5:53
And I think coming from a, you know, Chapman is certainly an up and coming, certainly a recognized school, but, you know, a little bit a little bit newer on the sort of film school scale, you know, I think it's been great for us to, you know, obviously Michael and I met through school, and so that, in and of itself, I think the fact that we're making this movie proves that film school does provide a degree of networking, then can be really helpful. But we're also just trying to move forward with, you know, having a net of advisors, people like Marty, but we also have, you know, some other people on our list. You know, Dave Klein is a friend of my dad's, who's a DP on homeland and True Blood has worked with Kevin Smith, you know, and Heather shot clerks. Clerks together. Yeah, yeah, Dave and Kevin shot clerks when they were like, like 21 or 22 like, our age, you know. But having some people outside of the faculty sphere that can also provide some support and some guidances is really important. So it's definitely about about cultivating that network.

Dave Bullis 6:45
So you one of the questions I was about to ask too was, where did you guys meet? And you just, you just mentioned the Met in film school. So I wanted to ask that because I thought maybe you guys, you know, you two were friends before film school, and you decided to go there, at Chapman together. So let me ask you this, when you both decided to go to Chapman, when did you actually meet each other, and then, you know, how did you start working together like you are now?

Lily Yasuda 7:07
Do you want to do it?

Michael Wolfe 7:11
Yeah, well, so we, it turns out we lived on the same floor freshman year, yeah? Well, we didn't find that out until, like, a year later, because we didn't really talk to each other. We met in a like, I knew that you existed, but I don't think I'd ever actually spoken to you. I Yeah, I think that's what it was. But we met in this creative writing class outside of the build program, because you you just, like, you have to take electives, and you want to, like, build something that is general education, so it's something that's fun and sustains you. And we, Willie and I both just ended up, like, we had to write, like, a memoir piece. And Willie and I both ended up tackling topics about, like, our, like, sexual history, like I've told the story of, like, my first blow job. They were, yeah, they were, like, very unfortunate. They were, they're very unfortunate, very humorous, like, material. And we just, we just bonded,

Lily Yasuda 8:04
Yeah, we, like, we had to read them out loud. And it was, like, super uncomfortable, because, like, oh, who wants to go first? And Michael went first. And Michael Stern was like, so ethically, like, we'll say vulnerable in, like, an artsy way, we'll go with embarrassing and, like, a more literal way that I was like, okay, then I have to share. And we, like, talked after class, yeah, I'm like, had mutual friends, and then he sent me an email, like, I don't know, a few weeks later, pretty much totally out of the blue. And was like, I want to, I want to produce a feature when I graduate. I want you to write me something. And I was like, Cool. What do you want it to be? And he was like, it can be whatever you want. And I was like, that's really nice, but that's not what you mean. Like, what, what's the movie that you want to make? And he, you had a ton of ideas you sent me, like a doc. There were like eight or 10 things on that list, yeah, but one of them was a story about a girl that he was friends with in high school, he was really close with, and he was super into her, and she was not super into him. And sort of, I guess, the fallout of that, and like, sort of the, like, weird price you pay for one sided reciprocation. But then it became this conversation about, like, the friend zone, you know, and sort of what relationships look like now. And that seemed like an interesting place for us to start. So it was a pretty loose pitch when I started it. And this script has been through a lot in the last few years. So, yeah, it's definitely evolved, but, but it was, yeah, it was Michael's pitch, and I think that that coming together, I think not as friends, but like, where it was more about, like, being collaborators, yeah, editors,

Michael Wolfe 9:33
Well, and it was important to me, because I, I am more of a director than a writer, like, I like writing, and I like to talk about writing, but the actual writings is so difficult. And what's great about Lily is she just, is she's really prolific, like she's always writing something and she has to finish it. And you know, you usually you just start stuff and you don't finish it. And that's me in a nutshell. So to I approach Lily. Because she was the person who I knew could finish it.

Lily Yasuda 10:07
And that's kind of what you want when you ask someone to write you a movie. You want to make sure you have at least all of the movie so that's what, that's what we're trying to do as we move forward.

Dave Bullis 10:26
So when you mentioned the person who, who would never reciprocate, is that one of those typical people you kind of meet, not only in film school, but in all types of like colleges, in the workplace, where they're always there when they when they need something, and then whenever you need something from them, they're, you know, you can never find them.

Lily Yasuda 10:42
I think that's probably true. I don't think that's unique to film school, but I think the story that Michael brought to the table, you know, is less about, I don't know, feeling jilted or like, like, being taken advantage of by someone who doesn't reciprocate your feelings, but just the idea that, you know, romantic comedies have spun this idea that like, oh, well, if you're a boy and a girl who like each other's company, you're destined to be in love. And I don't know if you've ever existed in the world, you've probably found that that's not true. And I think just sort of mining the story within that about, Yeah, sort of the realities of attraction and intimacy and what that means, and that you can love someone and not be destined to be their partner was sort of the underlying ideology.

Dave Bullis 11:27
Yeah, yeah. No, I see exactly what you mean. I just, you know, I again, when I used to work at different universities and teach film stuff, there was always, you know, there's always a little friction sometimes and usually, that's like, the type of person, you know what I mean, it was always like, needed, it's neat, very needy. And then when they when you need something, they're just never there. It just as a side question. Have you ever met like, I guess, the the the stereotype, which is basically the, what I like to call the art school, the art school reject. And what I mean by that is, they're the person who is just, you know, makes everything they want they want to make is like avant garde that, you know what I mean, and they, and they, and I, dare I say, they almost where they want to wear, a beret that this,

Lily Yasuda 12:13
Maybe literally, honestly, not even the metaphorical beret, like, yeah.

Michael Wolfe 12:18
And they're lovely people, but they have no i They, they, when it comes time and you help them out on their project, they have no idea, like, how to communicate what it is they want. They just kind of just bark at things at you. And you're just, you just kind of, you're just kind of scrambling. And they usually like, you know, especially in film school and in the industry, you as and when you're starting out like this, you want to trade as many favors as you can. Like, that's my biggest thing. Totally, that's the kind of person where, like, they can't trade, they can't trade, they can't do anything. They've never even been on a set before. Yeah, they weren't even, like, they don't know how to be a boom up and why it's important to be good at boom opping and motivate a person who's going to boom up for you someday.

Lily Yasuda 13:01
Totally, yeah, we know people.

Dave Bullis 13:06
I usually have a saying, if you were in a class, you know, and you're in film school and you can't find that person, chances are you might actually be that person. So

Lily Yasuda 13:17
Definitely, if you're like, I don't know anyone like that, like, oh, other people, other people know that person, and I'm sure they could point you in the right direction.

Dave Bullis 13:26
When I, when I was, you know, working at different places. I there was a student project that this person made, and they were kind of, you know, in that sense, they were in that regard. And they would, they would constantly quote, you know, you know, they talk about Kurosawa films and this now, yes, and now I'm a huge movie nerd, so obviously I'll talk about that too, but, but it's just they kind of, you know how you mean, they, they shoot one thing, and it's like, oh, this is exactly Curacao would do it. Oh, my God. So anyways, the project they handed in was so badly done, like I could, I could do a whole podcast about what had happened, but essentially, aspect ratios didn't match from scene to scene. And I first was like, Is this an artistic choice of why you're going from, you know, all these different aspect ratios? Maybe, this is just something that I'm not aware of. And no, it wasn't a artist of choice. There was, there was a lot of that. There was a lot of sound issues. You're speaking of boom mic operator. There was a and there was something else. I want to say. There was something wrong with the coloring, and I can't remember what it was, but I think the color correction on the scene was so blown out as it was just like everything, it was like a hodgepodge of everything not to do in film school. But if I said to you, like, hey, come up with every stereotype of film school, that's what. This was awesome.

Lily Yasuda 14:54
Awesome. Yeah, well, and I think so much of that is, you know, particularly as young, as young filmmakers. Student filmmakers, you know, there's a desire to do something really big. Everybody wants to be Chris Nolan, or everybody wants to be Tarantino, right? If people want to write, oh God. And with all due respect, Edgar Wright, but you know, I think there's a desire to tell really big stories. And I know that, you know, I get off a little bit easier because I operate more on the writing side than the production side. But you know, I, I like to tell really small stories, and that's good news for me, because small stories are really producible, and that's very much how, how we approach this movie, like love, that we wanted to tell a small story, both that would not kill our our our pocketbook when it came time to pay for it, but that that we could really focus on, on telling the story well, and not getting too hung up on lens flares and car chases and, oh yeah.

Dave Bullis 15:50
And we've all been there to where we're, you know, they we're gonna make some movie that we absolutely possibly can't make, like, you know, a car chase movie or a time travel movie, stuff like that, and that's why, you know, it's just when people do that, it's always like, Godspeed. But you know, you're probably gonna end up hating every single second. Or when you're like, Oh, I'm making a time travel movie where we're going back to 1800 and, oh, there's cars in the background or walking, you know what I mean?

Lily Yasuda 16:19
You're like, Oh, it can't be that hard. We'll just need a few cars. And you're like, Those cars are really expensive, though. Like, like, a few cars can be most of your budget.

Michael Wolfe 16:27
Well, that was me. That was me with my thesis film. It was a superhero movie, which I now, like, because I had done the smaller stuff. And I was like, I want to challenge myself, so I'll make a superhero movie when, like, six locations, like it had VFX sequences, and how big was your crew? Our crew? We had like, crew of like 80 people, and it was, as a student filmmaker, you're leading a crew of like 80 people, and you're just like, that's a lot to manage. And you're also like, you're there's so many elements that you're trying to get into place. You can't even make the move. You're trying. You're spending so much time trying to make the movie happen that you don't make it good. You don't even, yeah, you don't make the movie. You just, you just kind of like, assemble, you just kind of throw a bunch of stuff on screen and call it a movie, yeah, at that point.

Lily Yasuda 17:13
And also, for the record, I would just like to say there will not even be 80 people on our set in total, including extras on this feature. So we're really scaling back on this, on this project that was, that was a crash course in like, what, when, what not to do, yeah, but I learned, you do learn how to stretch your budget really quickly when you're trying to assemble all those things. Goldfish for everybody. People love fruit snacks. That's true. Pro tip, aspiring filmmakers, everybody loves fruit snacks, and it has to be, it has to be welches. It can't be the off brand. Yes, exactly. That's our advice.

Dave Bullis 17:50
That's like the the Lloyd Kaufman brain of doing things, you know, the goldfish crackers and Dale bagels. That's the old Lloyd Kaufman special.

Lily Yasuda 17:57
That's the two major food groups, honestly, like, you get something crispy and something with cream cheese on it, and like, you'll be fine

Michael Wolfe 18:03
For my for my thesis, we had a night shoot, and my producer, she's wonderful, wonderful person, but she's from China, and she got bagels, and instead of cream cheese, she got sour cream. And it's like three in the morning, and you're you just want to go to go to sleep, you know, and you just try to work and so and so, you're not reading the labels. You just see what looks to be cream cheese. And you're putting sour cream on bagels, dip them. No, they spread them because they thought it was, they thought it was cream cheese. And Yikes, yeah. Talk about a way to wake up, though, better than coffee.

Lily Yasuda 18:40
That's rough.

Dave Bullis 18:43
That, yeah, that's that is, that is pretty rough. I don't know. I did, she was she able to sort of save herself, meaning that, like she did, she realize the mistakes she made and and she tried to make amends.

Michael Wolfe 18:55
She did. She did. She went out crafty for everybody. Oh, good, good. You gotta, you gotta feed your career. Well, yes, that's important.

Dave Bullis 19:05
Yeah, absolutely, you know. And before we get started talking more about, like, love, I just wanted to ask, you know when both of you are shooting? You know your student projects throughout, you know your four years, did you ever when you were out, out shooting? Did you ever get, you know, maybe somebody coming to ask you questions about, hey, what are you doing? And you kind of were able to pull the whole Hey, I student filmmaker card.

Michael Wolfe 19:31
Wait, I'm sorry. Repeat the question real quick.

Dave Bullis 19:33
Did you ever, like, when you were out filming? Did you ever get to pull the whole Hey, I'm a student filmmaker card? Like, like, if you're ever out somewhere shooting, and somebody asks you, like, Hey, what are you doing here? Like, hey, we're just students. We're making a movie.

Lily Yasuda 19:46
I think that's hard in California, especially in orange, where Chapman is located, because everybody does like everyone is on set all the time, like the residents of orange hate student filmmakers. which, like, is probably not unwarranted, you know, but for this, for this feature, we're shooting in Boise, Idaho, and even, like, today, like we did a couple of location scouts, and like, people are just so stoked. Like, they're like, What are you doing? And you're like, we're making a movie. And they're like, Wow, could we be in the movie? And you're like, Yeah, potentially. Like, people just think it's so fun. So I think there's a higher sort of, like, novelty.

Michael Wolfe 20:29
Well, yeah, well, in orange, it was like, You downplay the student aspect, and you just go for the we're young and hungry, and enter kind of thing.

Lily Yasuda 20:39
You do not say you go to Chapman, the people, the residents of orange, do not want to help you, as a Chapman student,

Dave Bullis 20:46
See, and that there's the, those are the pro tips that, see, that are like, you know, they you have to be in the know to get them. Oops, sorry, I just hit the microphone. Sorry, I was, see, I was so excited about that pro tip, I hit the microphone with my hand. But no, but see, those are the types of things that you kind of have to, you know, ebb and flow out of because you get, you don't want to say you're, you're, you're going to Chapman, but you also, you're always going to be able to say, hey, look, you know, if you're, if you're out somewhere and you're shooting without a permit and you're doing a gorilla style, you want to be able to say, Hey, I'm, I mean, I've done it too, where I'm like, Hey, I'm just a student making a film. What's going on here? I don't know any departments,

Lily Yasuda 21:22
Officer, yeah, well, that's why,

Michael Wolfe 21:24
That's why we're in Boise in particular. It's because they don't, we don't like, need selling permits. Yeah, there's not an emphasis on like in, I think in LA What is it like? If you if, I don't know if this is a rumor or not, but I've heard horror stories where, like, people will, they'll film gorilla style, and then in LA they find out you didn't have a permit. Afterwards, it can lead to huge fines, and, like, you can't use your footage, like, without being sued by the city. It's a, yeah, it's like, a big it's a big deal, just because they have so much production fatigue, sure. Whereas in you come out to this small place, like, like Boise, like, a significantly smaller where there's no, where there's hardly any film and infrastructure. I think, I think they don't even have like, film incentives, right?

Lily Yasuda 22:10
So maybe this is really just elaborate plug for people to come shoot films in Idaho. Like, surprise you got us, like, if you're looking to shoot an independent film, maybe you should come do it in in Boise. It's, it's hot and dry, and people are nice, and we like to deep fry steak like it's a pretty good time, truth be told, awesome. Yeah, awesome. Boom. We have one convert. That is our That is our mission.

Dave Bullis 22:35
I I'm here in Philadelphia, and there was a point where production fatigue started to kind of sort of set in. But then, you know, all the productions left the Pittsburgh, and now the only thing we have left, there's creed two, is here right now, and that's it. So it's like, that's

Lily Yasuda 22:51
not so bad. Take it. Take cream too. Yeah.

Dave Bullis 22:55
Well, it's just funny, because there used to be so many other things going on here, and now there's like nothing, and it's just like it has become just, you know, it's, you know, the people were, you know, wondering where all the other productions went. So apparently they've all gone to either Pittsburgh or and now, as I find out, Boise, Idaho,

Lily Yasuda 23:12
Yeah, surprise, we're stealing them from you,

Dave Bullis 23:15
You know. And I wonder too, if there is, you know, if there even, is there a Film Commission in Idaho, like, is there one?

Lily Yasuda 23:23
There is okay, cool. Tell you almost nothing else about it, except that it exists. But we do have one.

Michael Wolfe 23:29
I think they're waiting for their big, their big opportunity.

Lily Yasuda 23:32
La La Land, two that could be us,

Dave Bullis 23:35
See if I was. I mean, I mean, and Mike, you know, you, you being a, you know, a producer on the project, I imagine my producer hat starts to go off here, and I imagine there's a lot of empty buildings in in Idaho, not just around the Boise area. And what I mean by empty buildings is, you know, farms, old warehouses, old, you know, kind of like dairy silos, all those types of places. And I kind of wonder, you know, if they could be utilized more, you know what I mean?

Lily Yasuda 24:04
Sure, maybe not in our movie. But if you need a good like serial killer film, maybe this is the place to do it.

Michael Wolfe 24:13
They absolutely could. And the nice thing too, is like, when you don't have a town that has all the production fatigue is people will just open up and they're happy to have it. That the trick, though, and this is a discussion like when I visited New York, I went they the city has a like the Mayor's Office for film and television, and they're very big on educating so many shows shoot in New York. They're very big on educating the city about why film is great and TVs grade, and how it supports everything. And one of the things that they do is they train a lot of the they have a program that trains a lot of people who want to get involved in the industry, to create the infrastructure there, really. And yeah, and well, and that's the challenge with Boise, is there's, there are, there is a small team people. Willing to do it. There's just a small team, sure, you know, and so we are, we're bringing out some crew from California, and we do have the community support and a lot of people who are very interested in the arts stepping us out. But the people with the skill sets, for sure, are, there's a there's only so many, there's there's so many of them, and there's like, they're either on other projects and you're doing other things so you can find these places to shoot, but the project that you're making still is going to cost somebody, because you have to bring, you have to bring, just to bring, yeah, get to bring in the support network for it, for sure,

Dave Bullis 25:36
Yeah, that is true and but I, you know, I still think you know, again, that filming in in, you know, the small towns and stuff like that, it's always, you know, it's always an advantage, if you can use it as an advantage. And I mean by that is, you know, where towns where they're not actually, you know fatigue from filming, whether or not fatigue for people asking for favors or, you know, whatever else you know. That's why, if you do live in middle America, or even in a small town in California, whatever you can actually, because, again, you know people you know and you and people more willing to help you. Because if you live in a small town most of the time, you all know each other. You know what I mean, yeah, other than living in, like New York or LA where, as soon as you walk in, you know, hey, hey, you know, Hey, Lily, I want to film in your restaurant. You're like, just get out of here.

Lily Yasuda 26:19
Just know exactly, exactly, and that was ultimately, I mean, I'm from Boise, so that's sort of the short reason why we're here for production. But, yeah, just, just the generosity, and just people are so freaking nice. And you know, when you're poor and you're young, and this is both of our first feature, and you're starting out, I mean, you just, you need that infrastructure of support, and not even, I mean, yes, professional support of talented people that are willing to work for not a lot of money on set, but just people that are willing to bring you food, people that are willing to house your crew, people that are willing to, you know, we were freaking out. We didn't have our we're prepping our crowdfunding campaign on seed and spark, and we realized, like, two and a half weeks out that we didn't have graphics like, we needed a thumbnail for the video. We need reward stuff. And we were like, Oh, no. We're like, Okay, well, we need to hire someone, basically today, who can start work tomorrow. We can't pay them, and we need them to deliver, like, a bunch of stuff in like, 10 days. And we were like, Who could we talk to? And we were like, literally, no one. Like, like, students aren't going to do that. Like, professionals aren't going to work for free. We were freaking out. I talked to my dad, Dave Yasuda, who works, like, in marketing. He works in E commerce at a company that sells meat, but, like, he's done some stuff and, like, sort of the commercial and film space, and has directed and produced and done some stuff like that, but has done a lot of work in the advertising sphere, and reached out to his friend, Paul Carew, who runs a local ad agency, and was like, Hey, Paul, will you design for my daughter for free? And Paul was like, Sure. And so we got, like, a whole team of people to, like, do our graphics for literally no pay, you know, and you're not going to get that in LA, or I'm not. Maybe, if you're maybe, if you had better, better friends, but you're really well connected, you're real, if you're not me, basically, maybe la would play out for you. So

Dave Bullis 28:05
Better friends. Yeah, I like that.

Lily Yasuda 28:09
Yeah, Michael, get out.

Dave Bullis 28:12
Yeah, Mike, come on.

Michael Wolfe 28:14
No, it's true. She's literally, like, it's she's bringing all the resources to the project, and I'm just kind of coming in and going, Yeah, let's do this. Let's not do this.

Lily Yasuda 28:23
He provides moral support. Moral support. I like that.

Dave Bullis 28:28
So let's talk about, like, love, you know, I'm interested because, you know, I can just tell what you're you know, both. You're wearing a lot of different hats for this project. So, you know, you know, Lily, you're from Boise, so you're shooting it in Boise, Idaho, you know, Mike, you're coming along for the ride. So you know, and Lily, you wrote this correct. That's correct. And then, and Michael, you're directing it. I am, yes. And then now, are you both starring in it?

Lily Yasuda 28:55
I am Michael, who've been making a small appearance as gas station attendant, but I'm playing the lead role, correct.

Dave Bullis 29:04
Okay, cool. So just to talk more about, like love, you know, Lily, since you wrote it, could you sort of give us the log line or synopsis about the film?

Lily Yasuda 29:12
Yeah, for sure. So it's heavily inspired by When Harry Met Sally, as I suppose most romantic comedies are, but we wanted to get sort of a step further and very directly honor. You know, the interviews of When Harry Met Sally. For those of you who've seen the film, you know, and for those of you who don't, I'll fill you in real fast, you know. So When Harry Met Sally is like the classic rom com, about two friends who eventually fall in love over the course of, like, 13 years, or whatever, being together. But the backbone of the story is a series of interviews of like, old, sort of crotchety couples, telling the stories of how they met and how they fell in love. And I love When Harry Met Sally, but I think

Michael Wolfe 29:48
The tension of it is that, like, yes, they men. The tension of it is, is there these two people who are friends that fall in love, but it's like, men and women can't be can't be friends. because the sex and the attraction always gets in the way

Lily Yasuda 30:12
Right! And at the end of the movie, it turns out that's true, because, of course, they get together, so the interviews being all these various elderly couples telling the stories of how they met, how they fell in love. And I think the interviews have aged really badly. Like, if you watch them now, they're all of these, like, sort of sad stories where it's like, the guy is like, wow, I saw this woman, and she was so fine that I just had to have her. And we've been married for 100 years, and you're like, I don't know if that's, like, cute, you know, like, and obviously the interviews are intended to be funny, but they just, I don't know, like, if you wanted to go there, there may be a little bit misogynistic, but they just reflect, I think, this very outdated sort of idea of, like, love at first sight, like, then being together forever is more important than, like, being happy or supporting each other in a meaningful way. So that was sort of the impetus for the story. So like love is, as we've been pitching it, an anti romantic comedy about two friends who try to fall in love and can't, and what that then means for their friendships, for them individually and trying to overcome the can men and women actually just be friends and have that be a meaningful prize at the end,

Michael Wolfe 31:21
And it particularly plays on the gender dynamic, because it's from the woman's perspective, and how she's not he's into her, but she's not into him. And what like? Like, how she feels pressured because she thought she has this really awesome friend, and he wants something more,

Lily Yasuda 31:40
And she doesn't want to jeopardize the friendship, and it's easier for her to try and be in love with him than for her to tell him that she's just not interested.

Dave Bullis 31:49
I say, so the old friend zone. I'm a place I'm familiar with very, very often. No, I'm just kidding. No, but you're

Lily Yasuda 31:56
Like, I've been there. I feel that. I think we all have so

Dave Bullis 31:59
Story of my life, no, but, but, you know, so when you were talking about the interviews Lily, let me what kind of like I say, I always think there's, there's generation gaps, because I think each generation, you know, they have a different idea of relationships and love and all these sort of things. And, you know, I fall into the millennial category, I guess, are you millennial or generation? Y, I don't know, or how far are you on the cut off?

Michael Wolfe 32:26
We' re? We're on the cut where? So we're both what? Like, she you're 21 I'm 22 like, we're both on that, like, cut off, where? Like, I think the New York Times even had, like, a whole thing about it, where they're, like, they asked people our age specifically, are we millennial? Yeah, because the cutoff is supposed to be like, some people say the cutoff was 2000 2001 and some people are like, no, it's 1990

Lily Yasuda 32:49
And that's a significant difference.

Michael Wolfe 32:51
But we're like, right in the middle, like, I It's weird, because, like, the Parkland teens that are so big for their activism are being called Gen, Gen, Gen Z or whatever, and your isn't it? Yeah, yeah. And we're like, we're like, not that much older than them, like, they would have been freshmen when we Yeah, were seniors in high school.

Lily Yasuda 33:08
So unclear. Well, I feel like Millennials sounds snappier. So we'll go with that.

Michael Wolfe 33:12
We're in that weird middle gap of like, I remember what it was like to play outside, and I did that just barely, but, and I remember, like, I remember, like, before cell phones, yeah, but definitely, we've grown up with them. And for sure, what the expectation that smartphones and all that stuff, sure, and online dating and all of that stuff, yeah?

Dave Bullis 33:34
So, I mean, I think I'm, what, what probably, like, eight to nine years older than both of you, because I'm 31 so it's kind of, or, I mean, well, yeah, so basically, like, about 10 years older than you guys. So I'm kind of like the because I read somewhere that the millennial cough was like 1980 to 19 like 92 I think it was so like, I, you know, I fall into that category there. And I always sort of go back and I see how all these different generation gaps in this country kind of view different things, because each generation kind of is a is a lot different than the one before it. I mean, you have the you have the once in the 1940 which are called the greatest generation. And then you have the they gave birth to the baby boomers, and they they were totally different in a lot of different ways. And then you have the generation Xers, which, you know, which are even more, you know, different than their parents. I mean, it's just, you know, I don't think there's any country in the world that has such generation gaps as we do here in America,

Lily Yasuda 34:32
Definitely. And I think, you know, sort of the evolution of the romantic comedy, or just maybe how people see romance in general, is a good time capsule of that, that gap,

Dave Bullis 34:42
Yes, yeah. And that's why, I think, with the with those interviews, I think that's a good, you know, time capsule to have, because I think you know, you're looking and saying, Look, you know, this is, you know, they, they, they dated. I mean, look, look at how finding jobs are so different. Now, you know, back, you know, you hear a lot of baby boomers talk, and they go, oh, you know, I. Asked old Fred to have the steel mill for a job, and I got a job, and we're like, What the hell are you talking about? Like, you know, there's no, there's no steel mills. And if you go to a place right now and say, Hey, can I talk to somebody, they're gonna say, No, you have to make an appointment. You have to apply, blah, blah, you know, I mean, so it's like, it's all, it's also different now, but, but that's why, you know, again, we're just going back to the generational gaps. But you know, when you're so, you're, you're on season spark right now, or you're going to be on scene Spark, correct? You're going to be launching.

Lily Yasuda 35:30
We are live as of two days ago. So this is day is this day three. This is day three. Day three of our campaign. So we have 27 days to go.

Dave Bullis 35:39
So, so what are some of the, you know, the you know, the things that you've encountered, like, where you're planning this crowdfunding campaign, have you? Have you encountered a lot of, you know, unexpected things that have sort of come up,

Lily Yasuda 35:50
Aahh, I guess just that it's really hard. Like, I would say, nobody tells you, but everybody tells you. They're, Oh, it'll be really hard. And you're like, oh, but it won't be that hard. And then you start doing it, and you're like, This is, in fact, very hard.

Michael Wolfe 36:01
Yes, it's a it's a full time job in and of itself,

Lily Yasuda 36:04
But you don't get paid. You hope that other people pay the campaign. So no, but we have a great team, and like we have a we have a social media advisor, and our producers have been involved as well. So you know, again, it's pretty early on, and we've made good progress, given where we're at, but it's a long, a long and windy road ahead of us, I'd imagine.

Dave Bullis 36:27
So what is your goal right now?

Michael Wolfe 36:30
We're trying to raise a little over $31,000 and then the budget's a little bit higher than that. We also received a generous grant from the Alexa Rose Foundation in Idaho supports Idaho based artists like Lily So, but the 31 31k is the, is roughly the goal on the platform. Yeah, yeah, on the platform.

Dave Bullis 36:52
So, before the, you know, the the launch of this, did, I'm sure, you know, Marty was probably working with you on this. So, did you know if there's any advice you would give to anybody out there. What would it be that you that maybe you wish you would have done differently, or, you know, maybe just, you know, is it more time? Did you wish you have something else? Is there anything you would you know that, that you wish you knew that you know now, before you launched?

Michael Wolfe 37:16
Um, well, I mean, you know, it's, it's kind of, it's kind of, in a way, like the Pro, it's not, it's similar to the process of preparing for just to make a movie in general. Like, you know, you really do have to plan, like, there's the crowdfunding campaign has its own separate reproduction. You have to pitch video that needs to really reflect the movie. Because people are, they're watching that, and they're expecting, when they see that, that they're going to see what they're going to see when you make the actual move, yeah,

Lily Yasuda 37:45
And visual consistency and fonts and colors and graphics and all that, you know, I feel like we I think we did everything we could, which is not to say we couldn't have done more. You know, again, we're only three days in, and I'm already like, oh my god, we haven't done enough. But I think it's just giving yourself time to fully prepare and and just really going through all the specifics with your team. And ultimately, I guess it's about cultivating a cohesive message of like, so what is the project? Why does it matter? And who would watch it? And Michael and I, when we had sort of a turbulent road with producers, and so like, we'd gone through a lot of stages, of of pitching the project, of selling the project of, you know, who are we and why should we tell this and why this story, and why now? And I think once you've done that work, I mean, yes, you need to think about what you're going to post on Twitter and whatever, but it's more about that branding of what you're selling is what I would advise people to to think about,

Michael Wolfe 38:39
Yeah, yeah. And making sure that your your team in particular, is very consistent in that message, and because you have your friends and your family who are going to donate, and that makes up a large part of it. But then, if your movie is geared towards a very specific audience like ours, which is, well, you know, young millennials, then how do you market a movie to your friends and family so that they donate, but then also make that message so that it plays to the P

Lily Yasuda 39:09
I would watch a movie, yeah? Like your grandma would probably donate to your movie, but your grandma is probably not your ideal audience member. You know? I mean, I love my grandmas, don't get me wrong.

Michael Wolfe 39:19
But, and then your ideal audience member isn't exactly someone who's rich and has a lot of money. So how do you find them? Get them and so it's been a constant back and forth of like, where are we going online to find these keys?

Lily Yasuda 39:30
Yeah. So maybe the point is you should just make a movie that only really rich people would want to watch. I think that's your ideal film. And then the audience just takes care of itself,

Dave Bullis 39:42
You know, I think that is excellent advice, Lily. I think just having rich friends and just saying, hey, this movie will be for you. I, you know. And the weird part is, Lily, I, you know, because I get to talk to so many that one of the benefits of doing this podcast is I get to talk to so many different people not only in America, but also, you know, all over the world. And sometimes it actually happens where somebody has a very rich friend who donates a lot of money to projects. And I'm just like you son of a bitch. How that? You know, how can I get that? Because, you know, I'm just some schmuck here in Philly, but, you know, come on.

Lily Yasuda 40:29
Yeah, well, and I think it's also about remembering, and I say this, I'm really bad at implementing it, but in theory, remembering that as an independent filmmaker, especially if you're, if you're like Michael or i, where you're willing to wear a lot of hats. I mean, I can barely see for all of the hats that I'm wearing, but where you're wearing a lot of hats, you're doing a lot of work that you need to love doing the work, because 99% of the work is not being on set. It's not being on set, and it's not shooting the movie, and it's not like getting a beautiful shot, right? It's like, you're gonna, you're like, hey, today's the day we're gonna hire a production designer, and that needs to be really interesting to you. Or, like, today's the day we're gonna come up with a mock poster, and that needs to be really exciting to you, because, like, that is your, that is most of your job.

Michael Wolfe 41:13
And if people, and if people see that, yeah, after you love doing the work, then they're more interested in contributing. Like, you've got to be, you've got to be really open and, like, vulnerable about everything that it is you're doing, which is really hard when you're a filmmaker who's telling a story. Like, usually, you know, you you're a little cagey because you're putting, you're putting art out into the world. And, you know, there's a good chance a lot of people, everyone, has an opinion that's for sure, sure, and but if you're willing to just, like, what I've been discovering is you've just got to be willing to be very open about it, definitely when so, like, we shared, like our campaigns, like our our films, tone real, we're sharing, like, the actual process of, like, the nitty gritty of how we're creating race. And it's about

Lily Yasuda 41:59
You get, yeah, you get to watch Michael and I eat like, 19 frozen waffles, which is a pretty good time, which, in case you were wondering, like, don't eat frozen waffles when they're warm from the sun. Like, I wouldn't advise that. It's a terrible idea. So that's the kind of stuff that you just can't learn in film school.

Dave Bullis 42:19
I don't want you about the waffles. Yeah, I just some of the things you learn in film school and some of the things you can't and that's one of them, don't eat though. Don't eat the waffles that are, that are, that are,

Lily Yasuda 42:31
Don't eat the waffles. Yeah, I make that a T shirt. You can have that.

Dave Bullis 42:36
Oh, thank you, Lily, thank you. Yeah, I know we're running out of time. I know you both have to run. So I'm going to link to everything in the show notes, everybody. But just in closing, Lily and Michael, is there anything you want to say to sort of put a period at the end of this whole conversation?

Michael Wolfe 42:55
Yeah, well, thank you so much for having us on the show. It's great just know the talk and talk about the project so other people can hear about it. And you know, more than happy to if anybody who's listening, I know a lot of your listeners are very interested in working professionals, and you know, we're happy to connect in whatever week way we can with your project, but also to help them. Because the reason we the reason I'm doing this, and the reason I'm in film, the generals, because I love working with other people, and tying that into like love, I'm very excited about the crew. We've got a happy young crew, micro budget of 10 people post micro budget. So micro, you know, we're all wearing multiple hats, and I'm so excited for you, for everyone, to get to see the the work that we're doing. And I think what's, what's true about this movie, like, and it becomes a cliche, but, you know, we're here because we value working with each other, and we value the story that we feel like we haven't seen before. Yeah, and like, love has been very

Lily Yasuda 43:57
Very collaborative, very, very collaborative. And I think, you know, in the spirit of collaboration, of working with other people, like my, my takeaway for real listeners, or I don't know, just other people out in the art industry, like I was telling Michael, nothing makes you want to be generous to other people who make art, like desperately asking people to give you money. Like, again, we're only on day three of our campaign. And, you know, I think it's easy, as you know, whether, whether you are a working artist, you're just someone who likes art. You know that you see other people making stuff and they're like, hey, like, we need extra. Hey, we need $5 or Hey, and it's kind of like, Oh, that's nice, but it's easy for that to sort of into the background of your life and not then it you owe it to everyone you meet to give them $5 or spend your relay to become an extra but, you know, just little things of there are people in your life or your community who are writing a play and need a place to stage it. Or if there are people like, you know, I think making art intrinsically requires the help and support of others. And like, if you're in a place to support people, you have an oblation to do so. And I know that's something I was not very good at before starting. Movie, and even on a very small level, just felt like I was at a play the other night at Homegrown theater in Boise, and, you know, they were like, really, looking for people to help me, sponsors, right? For five bucks a month, you can become a sponsor. And I was like, you know, what, I want to be a sponsor. Because, like, I've spent literally my whole day sending emails trying to get people to give me $5 and it is so hard. And I think, like, you know, at that moment, I was, like, the least I can do is, like, you know, help them keep the power on so

Michael Wolfe 45:24
Well. And that's, that's what's cool about supporting like love is like, love is being supported by a community, like, boys, yeah. So it's like, it so, like, when people come and support us, they're supporting Boise, General, sure. And, you know, we're supporting them in tandem. It's, it's a win, win in that way. So it's really great to be a part of a project like that.

Lily Yasuda 45:43
Yeah. So I think to anyone out there, if you can help us out, that would be awesome. But really, truly, there's any way we can help anyone out there, if you're looking for advice or help or maybe $5 I have exactly $5 to give, so hit me up. You can find us our site. We could give it to ourselves. We could give it to ourselves. No, no, this $5 is only reserved for someone who's not you. Michael, so yeah, but Dave, thank you so much for having us. We really appreciate it. Yeah, if you have any questions or comments for us, feel free to feel free to let us know, and you can find the links to our social and everything in our seat spark at like club movie.com, and that should all be in the show notes. So, and

Michael Wolfe 46:23
That will be, thank you so much for having,

Dave Bullis 46:25
Oh, no problem, no problem, Mike, Mike and Lily, and, yes, everyone, everything will be at the show notes. Because I know a lot, you know, everybody died, or, I'm sorry, everyone ingests a podcast. They really sometimes are, you know, riding in their car, or they're walking to work, or they're at the gym. So, so they can always check those show notes. That's one thing. That's one tip I've always learned about podcasts, is that you should, if you're are gonna give, you know, like, links and stuff like that. It's always you have to put, you have to do the one two combination, putting them in the show notes. Because people, people, you know, people are busy. They're not like, oh my god, I gotta, you know what I mean. It's honestly out of mind. So I

Lily Yasuda 47:00
So don't think I've ever listened to a podcast, not in my car. So that is, that is sage advice as well. I'm gonna test you. I do like to text while I am driving the car, but that is not safe. I would not recommend that. So please, please haul your motor vehicle before checking the show notes.

Dave Bullis 47:17
Yeah, don't, don't click and drive, you know. So just put the phone down. Lily, Michael, I want to say thank you so much for coming on.

Lily Yasuda 47:25
Thank you so much, Dave.

Michael Wolfe 47:26
Thank you. Thank you. And I have to give Marty another thank you for introducing us, because great conversation.

Lily Yasuda 47:31
Big shout out to Marty.

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BPS 442: The No-Excuses Filmmaking Philosophy of Len Kabasinski

October 23, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

It began, as it often does, in the hushed corridors of childhood imagination—monsters lumbering across the television screen while the rest of the world slept. In the quiet glow of late-night horror flicks, a young soul discovered the strange alchemy of cinema. On today’s episode, we welcome Len Kabasinski, a martial artist turned indie filmmaker whose films blend blood, bone, and the spirit of doing-it-yourself with gritty determination. Len is a B-movie legend, crafting low-budget action-horror films with the vigor of a man who knows that creativity isn’t about permission—it’s about pursuit.

From his first plunge into filmmaking with Swamp Zombies, Len Kabasinski knew that making a film wasn’t just about pointing a camera. It was an act of becoming—writer, director, producer, marketer, even actor. And unlike the dreamers who never make it past the couch, he threw himself headlong into the flames. Armed with a Canon GL2 and the reckless enthusiasm of someone too committed to quit, he crafted his debut. “I’m not interested in just being called a filmmaker,” he said. “I am one. This is what I do.”

It wasn’t about waiting for a golden invitation. For Len, filmmaking came with duct tape, missed calls, and wrestlers-turned-actors like Dan Severn battling zombies in the woods of Pennsylvania. He’s not coy about the chaos: missed actors, last-minute rewrites, and reshoots in the backyards of MMA legends. But like any warrior worth his salt, Len learned to fight with what he had. His method became a rhythm—build the team, shoot in blocks, rely on the extras, trust the plan. Not a single project escaped without scars, but none were left unfinished.

Perhaps the most telling truth came when he spoke of being creatively alive. For some, making movies is a resume; for Len, it’s oxygen. “It’s like sharks,” he said. “They swim forward all the time, and if not, they die.” This hunger kept him moving through Curse of the Wolf, Fist of the Vampire, and the revenge-fueled biker saga Hellcat’s Revenge. Each film grew leaner, sharper, more deliberate. Locations condensed. Casts were refined. Extras became the lifeblood of the visual world. If it couldn’t be controlled, it was reimagined. That was the ethic.

And then came the recognition—not from red carpets, but from cult fans, late-night screenings, and the digital frontier. As he prepared for the martial arts epic Challenge of the Five Gauntlets, it was clear that Len was done chasing approval. People were watching now not for gimmicks, but for him. “I don’t have to worry about trying to draw them in with something else,” he said, echoing a quiet triumph only an artist forged in fire can know.

Len Kabasinski isn’t interested in nostalgia, though he pays homage to the B-movie gods that birthed him. What he offers is grit and grace at the intersection of martial arts, micro-budget cinema, and unwavering drive. Even now, as Swamp Zombies 2 looms with its blend of Running Man mayhem and undead madness, you can feel the energy of a man who never stopped moving. He’s not here to prove anything. He’s just here—still making, still dreaming, still Len.

“If you’re not 1,000,000% in, it’s a no.” – Len Kabasinski

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:49
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Len Kabasinski 1:53
Hey, thanks for having me.

Dave Bullis 1:55
Yeah, and that's that's so awesome again thank you for doing this. I know you're probably got like, a million things to do today.

Len Kabasinski 2:02
You know what mate the hard part, all that stuff is over for me. I just sit back and relax now. So I just, I just show up at the venue at, you know, before the doors open, I look at the movie on screen and make sure it looks pretty or sounds pretty, and that's about all I do today. So I sit back and relax. And it's a it's more about the cast and crew anyways, that then me, my job for everything is has been done for a little while, so I just hope they come out and have fun, and then it premieres for the public in a couple of weeks here,

Dave Bullis 2:30
And that's really cool. Then I'm going to make sure to link to everything in the show notes that we talked about, too. And by the way, you know Len and I are probably about an hour away from each other, because you're in western PA, I'm here in Philadelphia. So usually when I interview everyone land, they're either in New York or LA, that's like, so usually their weather is amazing, and it's like, you know, a humid or it's a rainy day out here in Philadelphia.

Len Kabasinski 2:54
Yeah, you know, I'm a biker guy. I've been a motorcycle guy for most of my life. Um, so you know, when it's 90 degrees, humid and hot, or Vegas and it's 115 and people are bitching and moaning, that's the weather I like. I like it the kind of hot that people complain about. So the hotter the better.

Dave Bullis 3:12
Yeah, right? Because, you know, if you go out when it's when it's too wet out or something, you'd like wipe out, right?

Len Kabasinski 3:19
Yeah, it's not fun, right? Rain hurts when you're riding a motorcycle, trust me, it's, it's, it's not a fun time. So,

Dave Bullis 3:26
So, you know, Len and you and I too, have a lot of things in common, martial arts and filmmaking. And I wanted to get asked you about your filmmaking career first, you know, because you've done a lot of really cool stuff. And I wanted to ask, you know, you've been working since about, like, think, 2005 when you created your first movie, swamp zombies. So wanted to ask Glenn, you know, at what point did you get bit by the filmmaking bug where you said to yourself, hey, I want to go out there and I want to make my own film.

Len Kabasinski 3:51
Yeah, you know, it's, it's something I wanted to do ever since I was little, little, you know, when I was, you know, whatever, six years old or whatever, I started to want to do things, or creatively imagination type things were started to run as my mom would stay up and watch science fiction and horror movies with me. There was like a late, great horror show. It was called on Saturday nights at midnight. It wasn't a school night. So my mom would let me stay up and she'd watch, like man with two brains, or any number, Godzilla versus the smog monster or something like that. So, you know, and staying up and watching these, and they were all PG rated stuff. So, but still, it kind of planted the seed in my brain that, hey, look at all this creative stuff that's in front of me. And they get to do monsters and dinosaurs and scientific experiment dudes with two brains and this kind of stuff. So I thought, Oh, this is so cool. So, but going along and, you know, that that spurned my love, really, for for B movies and stuff like that, and that got me on on track that, you know, I still love that kind of stuff to this day. I still watch that stuff to this day, you know, my days, if it's not watching sports or obviously working, which is, it seems like I work. Five jobs at times Other than that, you know, I'm watching B movies on Amazon Prime, or seeing what the latest trauma flick on prime is, or the latest Godfrey Ho movie on prime is, or whatever. So I watch a lot of Amazon Prime stuff, but, but, yeah, my mom staying up with me, watching those films that got the ball rolling. But as I went into high school and college and, you know, back then it's, it's night, you know, the early 90s and stuff. There is no digital video or mini DV, even at that point, or anything like that. It's like, if, if you wanted to shoot your film, or do a film that was, you had to film on 35 millimeter. Now, yeah, 16 and stuff was around. But, I mean, nobody really got out there shooting on that stuff. I mean, you had to do 35 millimeter really, to be taken seriously even. So. I mean, even in movies to this day that like you see, Rifftrax makes popular movies like Future Force or something like that with David Carradine. You know, that's 1990 that's still shot on film. I mean, it might look like a movie with a $20,000 budget, but, I mean, that's 35 millimeter film. They had six figures right there, just shooting on film. So, so, you know, I didn't have, obviously, the knowledge or anything like that to to, you know, I didn't go to UCLA Film School and those kinds of things. Um, I just kind of always wanted to do it, but didn't have the real knowledge, you know, and still might not take to two, you know, those kinds of things. But as I went along, mini DV came about. I started just kind of hanging out at, like, horror movie conventions and science fiction conventions and stuff like that, where I I had ran into, again, this is a really, really condensed quick version i years later, ran into Bob Zidar and Chris Watson, who directs and writes and does casting. He does a lot of studies. He's an author. He has a few books out there. Chris Watson did a movie called Zombie get and he was working on, again, a very low budget movie populated it all. I mean, in my opinion, he really started the boom, if you will, of the one day on set things for, you know, name actors and actresses in micro indie movies. He would get Tom Savini for a day, or he'd get Bob zedar for a day or two. And he'd get all these zombie gun and is packed with B name, you know, actors in it. And that's what he would do, is go around to these conventions, you know, pay him a few 100 bucks, or whatever it was, and, you know, get him on set for the day, and bam, they're in his movie, zombie getting so I kind of learned some things from him and and right then the mini DV thing was, the ball was, was getting rolling pretty good. And that, this is around 2003 2004 so, so that's pretty much how it all got started there.

Dave Bullis 7:42
You mentioned film school, Len, and that's something that we talk a lot about on this show, because some people have gone to film school. I didn't, I didn't go to film school either. You know, I find that it's kind of there. You know, there's a million million one different ways to enter this business right there. You can do a ton of different ways to get in. And, you know, I think the people that are quote, unquote normal, other people that, you know, maybe sit on the couch, or they're driving or always saying themselves, oh man, I wish I could go out and make my movie. I wish. I want to make a movie. That's why, you know, with guests like yourself there, and the other guests have had have on, it's not really normal, because you actually out there doing it. You know what? I mean, you're actually out there. And, you know, Len, I mean, as we're gonna get into it's so damn hard to make a movie because you have to wear five different hats, at least, you know, you're always juggling 10 different things, you know? And it's like the fact that a movie even comes together is a small miracle in of itself.

Len Kabasinski 8:41
Yeah, and, you know, I've been there 12 times now, or something like that, so it's not that it can't be done, but, yeah, the amount of work and effort I tell you along the way, since 2004 it's I've probably met, I don't know hundreds of filmmakers put it that way, but I've met 1000s of wannabe filmmakers, or wish they would make films I don't want to see. Say wanna be, as in derogatory. I mean, you know, want to be, want to do stuff that kind of I've met 1000s and 1000s of them, but most of them quit along the way somehow, when they find out how really difficult it is. You know, I'm not interested in just being called a filmmaker. I am one. This is what I do. You know what I mean, I don't, I don't have projects and then just not make them. I mean, in my brain and the way I am, I mean, I have to do this stuff for you know, it's like sharks. They swim for it all the time, and if not, they die, sir. So that's kind of how I am. I feel creatively. I always have to keep being creative or keep working towards things, and that's just kind of how life is lived for me.

Dave Bullis 9:49
So, yeah, and I completely understand what you mean. I mean it is. And when you finally go sit down and start to write a script, or, you know, you go over and you're wearing a producer hat, and you're thinking. Yourself, all right, but we got to make sure our schedules are going to coordinate for these shooting days you gotta wear another hat for a marketing you know, from a marketing standpoint, she made the thing, and you're like, Oh, crap. Now I got to get it out there, and how are people going to be able to see it? So, so, so, Len, when you were making swamp zombies, which, which was, which was your first film, you know, at what point did you sit down, you and start writing the script and then say to yourself, oh, man, you know what I'm going to make this. I'm going to, I'm going to direct this. This is gonna be my first feature. You know what you know was there any, was there an impetus that happened where you finally said, You know what this is, the year I'm going to is, the year I'm going to do it.

Len Kabasinski 10:44
Yeah, you know, it was after I had met Chris Watson, when I when I had been on set of zombie get in, and I still talk to Chris Watson to this day. I talked to him a week ago. You know, I knew that his plan and what he was doing, and he was talking to people from either trauma or or or whatever. There's 1000s of, you know, distributors out there that want to sign your movie. So, yeah, I knew, right after zombie get in, I knew that what kind of camera he used, what, what could I do? And I thought, wow, you know, being on set of this, this film, I I could do this. Finally, you know, this camera cost, you know, a couple 1000 bucks or whatever. You know, I'm in college at the time. I'm in medical school at the time. And I said, You know what? That's it, I'll use a charge card, which is what 99% of micro indie people do a lot of times. And, you know, they put all their initial equipment and those kinds of things on it. And to this day, even though I do not use it, I still own the camera that shot swamp zombies, which is a Canon GL two but, but by and it's still a nice camera. It's just not a 24p It's in beautiful 30 frames per second, and just like Uncle Ted's video camera 20 years ago. So, you know, that's what we did and but I knew that, yeah, one's on zombie get in. I came back and I sat there and thought, man, you know, I could do this, but the script I wrote for swamp zombies. And I love writing scripts, but the script I wrote back then, I mean, again, I still don't have any real experience, it was a pretty ambitious script that I needed to have my head examined trying to produce a movie like that is my first film, but in terms of getting it out there and stuff. I did have a plan, though. I mean, even when I didn't know what I was doing, I did have a plan. I knew I wanted to get eyeballs on the movie, and I knew I wanted to pick genres, if you will, or or or entertainment outlets if you will, like WWE or the adult film industry or UFC, which was not in 2004 this big thing that it is today, UFC was just kind of still kind of getting rolling kind of thing so that that's where Dan Severn came in, that's where blue meanie came in. That's where Jasmine, Saint Claire came in. I mean, I strategically, obviously went and wanted to use these people because of their names and kind of a following that, you know, hopefully would come along. So, so, yeah, there was plans like that. I mean, I didn't go in just completely, well, I'm just going to film this, and whatever happens, happens, you know, I didn't go in like that. I kind of thought, you know, this is my plan. I'm going to get it signed with the distributor. They're going to use and market my, my star people here, and we'll see what happens from there. So that's how that came about.

Dave Bullis 13:23
You know, I actually have seen swamp zombies, and I actually watched it on Amazon Prime.

Len Kabasinski 13:28
So you've seen the condensed version of it, you've seen the 90 minute version of it.

Dave Bullis 13:33
Yeah, exactly. I Good deal. I actually went on a Len kabazinski sort of run. I actually saw that fist of the vampire, Curse of the wolf. Skull forest, I think. No, no, I don't think skull forest is on there yet. When I watched it, or maybe it was, yeah, I was gonna say, I don't. I think that's when I was, I was on your Facebook. I knew it was, it was bridal party massacre. That's actually, Oh, yeah. So, yeah. So when I watched swamp zombies, by the way, I was like, Dan Severin looks exactly like you think a police chief would look, he has that look to Him where He looks like a detective, or, you know what, I mean, like, like him and Don fry could be like,

Len Kabasinski 14:09
Oh yeah, yeah. They trained together back in the day too, yeah.

Dave Bullis 14:13
I mean, they look like those hard, grizzled tough guys. And they both are legit tough guys too, which is even, you know, I mean, Dan Severn, I'm a huge UFC fan. Like I was saying, you know, we have, yeah, that's me too, yeah. Like, you know, we have two things in common, martial arts and movies. And, you know, I remember, I remember the early days of the UFC, and it was like they had to have it in, like, Casper Wyoming. And it was just like, there was three rules, you know what? I mean, it's energy,

Len Kabasinski 14:37
I remember. And, yep. But Dan was my favorite even back then. But when I approached him for swamp zombies, yeah, super nice man. Actually, in swamp zombies, he came to Erie for the day because I had this swamp cabin type location that you see in the movie where I'm doing a Kata or something to introduce my character. We had that location and and. A couple cast members, their dad or something, owned it. So I was like, Man, this is a super awesome location. So I was really fortunate to have stuff like that in the movie. Dan Severn came out to that location to film some scenes. And then I thought, man, you know, I just don't have him fighting enough at this point. So I contacted him and said, Dan, you know what, he's in Michigan, but he had all kinds of woods and stuff around his property. And I said, You know what? What if I come to you, you don't have to do anything, just eat breakfast and come outside and fight zombies. So I'll come to you, Dan, because mission, Michigan's only, like, four and a half hours away drive for me. So I just we went up there for the day, and what a hospitable just nice guy. I mean, he was super nice and and we always wanted to work together again. But scheduling wise, you know what? Once my film schedules are set, I can't really change them, because I do vacation from work and leave and those kinds of things. And once I take my dates, my my dates are my dates kind of thing, and it just never could work out. And he's a super busy guy. I mean, even to this day, he does tons and tons of stuff, whether it's law enforcement or UFC promotional things or wrestling, he still that promotes those kinds of things too. And, yeah, nice man. I hope to work with him again. And, yeah, he was awesome.

Dave Bullis 16:13
Yeah, it's, I've seen all the things that he's he's done over the years. I know he went back into MMA, I think last year. I mean, he's got like, a, what is it like? I think he's like 105 or five or 110 and like 19 losses, like unbelievable career. Because, I mean, most guys in MMA, they last for maybe, you know, what, 810, fights. You know, a lot of the guys, and the upper echelon guys keep going. But I mean, you know, I mean, he has over 100 fights, for God's sakes. I mean,

Len Kabasinski 16:37
Yeah, with him too, though he's got a style too, though, if you look at him, I mean, look at the dude. He just has not taken tons of damage throughout his career. He's got a style that lends him to, you know, not get beat up a lot in fights. So I think that's one of the reasons he's lasted as long as, as long as he did.

Dave Bullis 16:55
Oh, I agree, completely. Len, he was definitely one of the forefathers of, you know, he has a more of a wrestling background. He uses that in the gauntlet. I'm sorry, the octagon. I'm jumping ahead. I'm thinking of your movie challenge of the five. That's what I'm thinking of. And so, but yeah, you know, I agree completely. And you know, he's just used his style so well. And when you know, and you also look at somebody like Don fry, kind of similar style, Don fry might strike a little more. I'm sure that all the people listening to this for film, by the way, film, by the way, are probably like, Dave talking about, you about MMA, right? Yeah, so, you know, but, but, yeah, help two awesome guys. And I actually was fortunate to meet Don fry before, but not Dan. And I'm glad to hear these. He's an awesome guy. Oh yeah, because he seems pretty intimidating, by the way, like, you know,

Len Kabasinski 17:41
Oh yeah, after the one after we shot Swan zombies in Meadville, Pennsylvania, there we all went out to Pizza Hut afterwards, and he was like, as nice as, like, a librarian type person. He's eating his pizza with a knife and fork. And he's Yes, sir, yes, ma'am, to the waitresses. And, I mean, he treats everybody super good. So you can tell he's like, I believe he's from Missouri, and he's got that kind of hospitality thing going on for him. So he's extremely nice to everybody and and with that too, he's got the wrestling base, but he acts like a true martial artist, though he has that respect and that that nature about him, that you can tell those kinds of disciplines kind of molded his character, probably personally as well. So, very nice guy,

Dave Bullis 18:25
And that's awesome to hear. You know, a lot of those wrestlers from the Midwest, you know, amazing, amazing stuff they do out there. And so just getting back to swamp zombies. So when you finally, you know, you were putting this together, and you mentioned, you know, you had a few, you know, pieces of the way the cast and crew, you know, helped you get maybe a location here, location there, or maybe a resource here and there. You know, was there ever a point in time where you had, like, a huge problem, like a production problem? My question was, yeah. I'm glad I brought it up. Thanks. I love to hear stories like this about how filmmakers overcame this. You know, you have a, sort of like a resource problem, and you know, so what was your biggest problem on and how did you overcome it?

Len Kabasinski 19:04
Oh, God, biggest problem. I don't know. I can think of one off at the top of my head. I don't know if it was the biggest problem, because we still would have got around it, but we had a local actress. Well, nobody's actors and actresses. We're all just starting, but we'll just say actress who wanted the role. She was the friend of Pamela, such as character in the movie they're going on the beach and stuff like that, and sunbathing and just girls hanging out on the beach kind of thing. Well, the one character did not show up, and I had just talked to them the night before and actually met with them and said, Okay, this is what we're doing. We're going to show up at this beach at X amount of time. I'll have you done within probably four or five hours, and that'll be that. And, you know, and they're like, Oh, great. This is awesome. I'm so excited to do this. Blah, blah, blah, blah, so Pam, such is on set. We're all down there waiting, and this person just doesn't show up, doesn't call me, doesn't do anything. And I thought, oh, man, now what! So and back then my brain wasn't running where it didn't. I'll get into a Hellcats example in a little bit here. But now, if something like this were to happen and somebody would no show, I'm pretty confident in my abilities. I could, I could script right on the fly and fix it, whatever the situation is. I'm pretty I have that confidence now that I'll fix any problem that arises like this, but, um, but, yeah, the actress no showed, and I was stuck without a character there, and I thought, Oh, God, I'm panicking and stuff. And then one of the extras comes up to me and says, Hey, I know this local girl that works as a stripper here, and she might, you know, come out and do this. And I said, Okay, offer 100 bucks to get down here, like, right now, you know, for the day. And he's like, okay, like, oh. And sure enough, he did. And an hour later came this, this red haired, tall, good looking, young girl that comes out, and girl, woman, probably in her early 20s, there, that comes out to set. And sure enough, we made the scene happen and it got done. And, yeah, she's the character that's Pamela, such as friend they go on the beach and she gets killed by zombies. So yeah, the that was, that was a major problem where somebody just didn't show up, who we pretty much fully expected to show up. So yeah, we had to pull that one out. And luckily, we did so but yeah, it's funny, you're watching on Amazon Prime. I had done the RE edit on that movie, and I chopped about a half hour from it and put it on prime. And actually, the movie has been out of print for several, several months now, probably close to, I don't know, almost going on a year anyways, because I got the rights back to that film. It is not available on DVD. It's out of print now, so you're going to pay potentially big bucks to try to find it right this second. But it's coming. It's coming back to DVD in like a month. I'm just sending it out to get authored now the DVD so, and then it'll be out and selling again on DVD, with a couple new commentary tracks. So it'll be a brand new package, new artwork, all that kind of stuff. So it should be just about a month, or maybe even a little less, and Swan zombies will be back on DVD.

Dave Bullis 22:15
Oh, that's really cool. I mean, you know, and by the way, I mentioned that about production problems, how you overcame them? You know, when you were talking about somebody not showing up, that happened to me too, Len, I completely understand where you're coming from. Because when I started doing movies too, that was one of the biggest problems, was people who would say, oh my god, you know, it's, I've always wanted to do this. I'm going to show up. And the day of they no show, no call

Len Kabasinski 22:39
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, but that's a it's a good lesson learned. And going forward in the future, when I when I'm doing extras, and a lot of times, I didn't have to coordinate extras going forward, sometimes I did, but, but then is I got associate producers come on board and things I would have like my associate producer for quite a few films. Now, Ruth Sprague does a lot of coordinating with extras and things like that, but the main thing I do is, if you aren't 1,000,000% sure you're coming, just please. You know I'm marking you down as a no. You know what I mean? I don't maybes are nos to me now in filmmaking, and it's like I try to only do the sure things, and if they show up, great, if it's a maybe and they show up. Great if not. I didn't count on them anyways, kind of thing. And that's kind of how I treat that.

Dave Bullis 23:28
Yeah, I concur if they're not into it 1,000,000% and they even say, Well, you know, hey, Len, I'll try to show up, or, you know, try to be there. I was like, that's that subtext, meaning, no,

Len Kabasinski 23:39
That's, that's right, right, right. I don't try anything. I just do it So, little faster. Pussycat reference there,

Dave Bullis 23:48
Yeah, it's, there is no do it or not. There is no try the Yoda, yeah, from the Yoda and, but so, you know, as you actually got, you know, swamp zombies, you got it done. You know, you're, you were able to sort of market it. So when you start, you know, going into your other projects, like Curse of the wolf and Fist of the vampire, you know what? What are some of the things that you, that you started to do, you know, maybe more of, or less of meaning, did you start hiring more crew members to, like, help you out? Did you maybe say, You know what, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get a person just for marketing, and maybe I'm gonna find some producers that I can actually work with, you know, to that I can keep using for project to project to project, project. Because that's something I found out, is too is like, you know, Kevin Smith has Scott Mosier, Quentin Tarantino has Lawrence Bender. There was always that, that, that tandem. So were you able to start, you know, finding more and more people that you wanted to work with?

Len Kabasinski 24:34
Yeah, you know, the way I tried to do it after swamp zombies, I went into Curse of the wolf. And the first thing I knew I had to improve right off the bat is I looked at other films and looked at my peers and things like that. And as I said, mini TV was still fairly new at that point, but so was 20 4p cameras for consumers. And I knew once I saw 20 4p and one of my other peers projects were looking like I knew right then and there I need to go. 20. 4p and I need to just try to get a hold of a good camera for curse. So I had bought a Panasonic 100 dv x1 100 a off of a guy that was filming biker documentaries for the Discovery Channel, and he was local, making motorcycle engines or something. He said, Hey, I got this camera. I'll sell it to you 500 bucks. And that's the best 500 bucks I ever spent because it went on to shoot, you know, three or four more movies for me on the DVX. It was just a workhorse for me, so I knew I had to improve that. I think we pretty much did that. And I think there's a big jump between Swan, zombies and curse of the wolf. I can see a big divide between those two films in terms of, look, at least, but, yeah, it's shit, you know, dude, it's you try to. I want that when I do my pictures, I want to have a cast that I can run with for a while. And I thought it would happen back on Curse of the wolf we had, we had changed editors, because the editors of curse of the wolf, were actually on set doing effects, so they really lived with curse of the wolf like I did. And he was not begging, but really strongly lobbying. Len, let me edit this movie. Let me edit curse, let me edit curse. And I was going to use the same editor as swamp zombies, but he kind of convinced me and Lisa, who was the producer of that film, to use him. And going forward, he ended up editing Fist of the vampire as well. And at that point, I'm like, Okay, let's do like, a three picture type handshake deal here. You know what I mean? In the micro world, you don't pay somebody 10 grand to edit three pictures. That just doesn't happen. You shake hands and say, hey, I want to use you the next three movies. Let's do it. So that's what we thought would happen. But he edited two pictures, and then I kind of just let them go from there. Just the amount of work and stuff and being a perfectionist myself, it's just like, I'm not happy a lot. I I tend to really try to just push and push people and get the best out of things. And you know that that's kind of a personality quirk of mine that doesn't always work out all the time anyways, you know, it's, it's kind of like a leader of a band that goes through a lot of musicians, you know, they either think he's a dick or they push him to work too hard for too little money and all those kinds of things. But I understand all that stuff. I mean, I know my my limitations when it comes to that. But, yeah, you know, it works out where you end up using the same people for two or three movies or so, but then they move on. Or, you know, something happens where, you know, they go on to their own projects or something like that. But, um, you know, at the end of the day, when, when my people want to go off and do things or do that, that's totally cool. But you know, for killer wolf films, at the end of the day, I'm the one still here. You know what I mean, I'm still here and working no matter what, and everybody else can leave and branch off. But, you know, at the end of the day, I'm still here doing stuff, and that's not going to change.

Dave Bullis 27:51
Yeah, you know. And I think you always have this sort of being the master of your own fate. You know what I mean, you always have to be, not only, I mean, you're like me, Len, you want to write your own scripts and honestly, because it's your story, it's your own special sauce, so to speak. And you want to say, You know what, I actually want to see this done. So I'm going to lead the charge to get this produced. Obviously, I'll direct it. And then, you know, and you want to make sure that, that the last part of that left is the production phase, you know. And you want to make sure a do, I have some kind of, you know, money to, you know, you know, cash is king, right? And then, you know, resources, the locations and stuff like that. And then we go into the whole cast and crew stuff of, you know, what's my list? And like you said, Len, you, as you keep doing this, your list grows more and more. So if somebody does drop out, you know, hey, well, I have a couple other people now, and I'm not sure, I'm not you know where. You know, when you first start out your list is very small. And then as you start going out more, you network, you and you start meeting new people.

Len Kabasinski 28:44
Yeah, when I a big turning point for me with the less is more kind of thing is between a movie I did called ninja prophecy of death, which was one of my higher last like, higher budgeted movies for what I do. I went in and did a movie called skull forest, where Skull forest, I tried to, like, not dumb it down, but I tried to do a less is more thing where, you know what? I'm not trying to get 27 different locations. I think skull forest might have four or five locations total in it, and something like that. But I knew that I'll condense the story. I'll make it you know, we're not going to be running around on a film like a day planner, you know, day one, we're in the woods, that's it. We're there all day. Day two, we're in a dance hall or something all day. And I knew I got really, I got better at day planning for, you know, what shooting on what day that, that thing I and the last several films have went really smooth for me to shoot. So day planning and constructing, uh, usually if I have extras, I put them all on one day, for example, like Hellcat, because extras are always the hardest thing for me, anyways, is to round up a bunch of people, get them all on the same day, on the same schedules, and all that stuff. That's hard. So if it's one group of people that I want to really have fun on my movie sets. It's not even so much my lead actors. It's my extras, because those are the people that populate scenes and make them look good, you know? I think so. So the number one group of people, if you will, on set that I want to come out and have fun is the extras. Because when I do my next film, I want them back to do something else if I need them. So, yeah, I want Hellcats revenge. That's coming out here, and it's already it's signed a worldwide multimedia so it's out of my hands now, but I do think the DVD is probably coming by, like Thanksgiving. Ish time here for Hellcats revenge, but we did a clubhouse, if you will, a female Hellcats like motorcycle clubhouse, and we shot all those scenes on the same day. We did an eight hour day or whatever. And all we did for that eight hour shift was film all the scenes where it's really, really populated in the clubhouse. And it worked out really, really well. So and we did the same thing where we were at a strip club. We shot all the strip club scenes on one day. Got a bunch of people who doesn't want to come out and be an extra in a strip club. So it's like we got a bunch of people on that day. So that's one thing I've gotten better at as we go along. But, yeah, it's the it's those elements that you've got to it's not about cutting or trimming. It's about, really, what I think I've gotten better at is writing scripts that I know I can accomplish kind of thing and and I get a lot of emails actually saying, Well, Len, how did you go about doing this or that, or how did you get this or that, and your films and stuff? And I said, You know what? If you want to accomplish your film and you're just getting rolling, or it's your first movie or second movie or whatever. Write one. Write your script to what you know you can get. If you have a script that calls for a double decker bus in France and sharks coming at you from the sky, but you can't get those things. Don't do it. Yeah, don't. Don't write it. So, and I'm not trying to limit your imagination, but what I'm trying to do is get you to have a film that's realistic for you to shoot kind of thing, and it's all for us. Being example, it's woods, it's guns, it's fight scenes, and that's about it. So I knew I could get that done, but so I tell them that, and then I said, you know, limit your cast and crew. Everybody wants to do a movie. Every Joe Blow off the street wants to do a movie, but when it comes time for them to show up on your set, and they don't, you know, don't be surprised kind of thing. So, you know, don't, don't make your cast real expansive and stuff. Just to start off, I would say, start, start small here. And speaking, I know we've talked a lot about swamp zombies and, yeah, I mean coordinating, God bless everybody that helped me out for that film. But yeah, sometimes it was just hell trying to coordinate 20 zombies on set or whatever. I mean, and I was doing it all back then. I didn't have an associate producer or anything. I mean, I was on the phone and doing, oh man, it was, I ain't going back there again. Put it that way, but, but everybody that helped out was super great. I mean, I've been really blessed that out of whatever a dozen movies or whatever it is now, very, very, very, I can't, I can't remember many dickheads or jerks really, so I've been really fortunate there. And yeah, even back in the day, to kind of prevent that stuff, I had met Jasmine St Clair and blue meanie and talked to Dan Severin and well, before shooting, because I knew I didn't want to bring these people on that were getting paid for their roles, and everybody else is covered in swamp crap and zombie makeup and stuff, and they're not getting paid. The last thing I'm going to do is bring Jasmine St Clair on set and paid role and have her treat my people like jerks or whatever. So I made sure everybody I used had a cool personality and stuff and and I still kind of work that way to this day. If there's a more name person that maybe once involved, I would talk to him and just kind of make sure that it's going to be a personality fit. I'm a real blue collar guy, so it's divas and those kinds of people, they're just going to hate me. I'm going to probably hate them, and it's just not gonna work. So, you know,

Dave Bullis 34:02
Yeah, you know that that's the thing, Lynn, you have to get those bad attitudes out of there. And that's so true, because those bad attitudes spread. It's almost like, like a disease, you know? It's almost like it was like a zombie curse, you know? It's like it affects one person, that it affects two. And that's why it's so good to, sort of like, hire, slow, fire, fast, as you're saying, out of business. And that's something I've learned over the years too, is, you know, I've been there. We were just mentioning about swamp zombies, where you're on the phone and you're trying to coordinate all these people, you know, I've been there too, where you're you're like, Okay, you're on the phone trying to give somebody directions, people coming up to at the same time asking you for stuff. And you're like, my god, you know, it's a lot, right? So that's when you need to have, you know, the crew to sort of, you know, to sort of delegate the, you know, all these assignments. And you want to have everyone have that upbeat attitude. Hey, look, you know, we're making art. We're actually out here doing something, and we're getting treated well for it. The director is not talking down to us. You know, we all feel like we're a part of the team. And I and, you know, I that. Is so key, because, you know, I've been on those sets here in Philadelphia where, you know, you show up and the director acts like, you know, who the hell is, you know, what are you doing here? Don't talk to me, whatever. And you're like, Come on, dude, yeah, we're all in the same boat here,

Len Kabasinski 35:13
Yeah, with stuff like that, I'm kind of the opposite. I wish I could hang out and talk to the extras more. Just talk to people in general. I mean, there's people that had starring roles in my films who I probably spoke three sentences to, you know, just because I don't, I don't have time on set and with a wonderful internet here. I mean, a lot of my directing, if you will, to the actors. It's done months beforehand. You know, we're communicating online, or you know, they'll message me questions about their characters, that I do a lot of the directing remotely. So when, by the time they show up on set, they know what's expected of them, you know, character wise and things like that. So it does make my job easier come actual, you know, film time when the cameras rolling, that they know what what I'm expecting of them. And that doesn't mean I still have to kind of direct them and reel them in from here or there, but it's, it's a good process that I get to nail a lot of direction really, ahead of time, a lot, many times.

Dave Bullis 36:13
And that's good. That's really efficient too, because that way, when they get there, you're, you know, everyone knows what's expected of them, and you can just rock and roll through this, and not a lot of you know, waiting around between takes and stuff like that.

Len Kabasinski 36:24
Oh yeah, Hellcats revenge. I rewrote the script at the last minute, literally last minute. We had a cast member drop out, and I thought, well, I'm still filming this. I'm just gonna change a couple things. And I'm, you know, I had people in from Vegas. I had people in from LA already on set, and I had to change the script and but I did it. The movie premieres tonight. It's like, it's out there. It's going to come to DVD later this year. And, I mean, wow, that was one of the craziest experience in film ever to have, like a lead, you know, not be there, and then me have to just kind of rework everything at the last minute, and it definitely worked out for the better. So it's one of those moments you just got to nut up and figure out, you know, what are you going to do this? Are you not going to do it? Pick a direction and go. And mine was, go make a movie. So

Dave Bullis 37:14
Yeah, and usually Len, that is the best option to go with is, you know what? You got to put your head down and just keep going forward. Because, you know, a lot of the time it is the right decision, you know, because it's better to make it than not make it right. So and So, as we talk about Hellcats revenge, could you just give me a, you know, give everyone a log line about the film?

Len Kabasinski 37:34
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Basically, Hellcats revenge is your kind of biker revenge movie. I mean, you're not going to get some kind of complex, you know, seven ish story out of it, or something like that. I mean, it's pretty straightforward. Well, biker leader of a female gang is killed, and so her her Hellcats, if you were her gang riding club, or whatever you want to call them, kind of go out and try to find out who killed her, and they end up coming up against a criminal gang called the Vipers, and they kind of go at it, kind of thing. So it's a female gang versus a male biker gang in the film. And then there's kind of some like fence sitting shady characters that kind of kind of play both, both sides there. But yeah, it's not an all out martial art film. There is some fight scenes, obviously, in it and stuff like that. It moves along at a pretty good pace. It's like an hour and 20 minutes, I think. So I was pretty pleased with the runtime and all that kind of stuff. So I think it moves along good. We had an Osmo camera for this one, so we have some really cool, steady tracking shots and those kinds of things. The Osmo camera was wonderful. So I think, I think, I think what people will see is increased production values, just even stepping up from like Angel of reckoning. So I think they'll see those kind of productions, like lighting and all those kinds of things sound, we ADR, a lot of stuff in it. So we wanted to make sure, because that's a common problem, especially micro indie stuff, is lighting and sound are the two big things that you know, usually need the most work or end up sucking. So we try to really, and we did that with Angel of reckoning too, but even hell cats revenge even more so that we wanted to, you know, if we had ADR stuff, that is what it is. Let's just make it the best you know, that we can. And so, yeah, it's just a crazy little action picture. There's a lot of guns, few fight scenes, some hot chicks, that kind of thing. So I hope people enjoy it. It continues my trend of, like, action movies without being martial art movies. But um, that being said, you kind of mentioned this briefly, and I'll touch on it now real quick. Is um, I got I actually will backtrack to Hellcats one second here. I've had a lot of especially like Red Letter Media fans and stuff like that, message me that Len, when are you going back to doing like a lead type role? Because we they for whatever reason, like, when I'm I'm acting and doing that kind of stuff, and for the last couple pictures, I really haven't been but for those that want to see me in a lead type role, Hellcats or revenge will be your movie. I play the character snake in the movie, who is like the lead villain type character. So for those that want to see me in a lead role, Hellcats Revenge will be your movie. It's Lisa Neal. Playboy cover model. Lisa Neal plays the cat, the leader of the Hellcats, and I play Snake, the leader of the Vipers. So for those that want to see me in a lead role, that's the Hellcats is your movie. But that's a question I got, was land when you do an elite role again? So there's the answer to that. And then the other question I get a lot is, Len, your last couple movies, like Angel of reckoning, for example, aren't really martial art movies. When are you going to do your martial art movie? Well, that's coming next year. I'm writing now a movie called challenge of five gauntlets, which is a all out martial art picture. It is done in the vein of stuff I really love in the 70s, like Shaw Brothers studio martial art pictures or kung fu movies, those kinds of things. Got challenge of five gauntlets will be in that style. So it will be my first all out, you know, martial art picture. There is no vampire, zombies, you know, whatever. Then none of that is in it. It's all it's an all out kung fu picture. So, and that starts filming next, next spring.

Dave Bullis 41:18
And I know you mentioned that there's a certain somebody from Red Letter Media who's going to play the wise old kung fu master.

Len Kabasinski 41:26
I'm hoping that happens. If it doesn't, you know, it's not like I'm not doing the film or whatever, but I thought it would be funny. You know, if that happens, it's not a comedy film, obviously. But if it happens, I think it'll be really funny for the fans, if not, and they they're still interested in checking it out. They're going to get what they want out of me. They're going to get that that all out martial art, you know, picture. So even now I'm currently as I'm writing it, I'm studying a lot of fight scenes from that area, really, studying the choreography and things, not so much to like rip off things, because that's really not my deal. It's more to, like, understand, like, in a Shaw Brothers fight scene and challenge a fight or challenge in five element ninjas. You know, here's this big fight scene. How many moves do they go with before cutting and switching an angle or doing stuff like that? So really trying to, like, see how the fight scenes are in those films. And really, I'm going to try to mold my fight scenes in a similar fashion,

Dave Bullis 42:24
And that's awesome. Again, you're a big martial arts fan. You're a martial artist yourself, you know? I I've read about your background, I know you've done a lot of Taekwondo, a lot of Fang sudo, you know. And that's awesome. And you can bring that to to the to the films, you know, you do fight choreography. And I actually can't wait to see challenge the five gauntlets and see what you do with it.

Len Kabasinski 42:45
Yeah, yeah, it's I'm excited to do an all out martial art picture. I really am, because now, when it comes time for distribution, you know, back in the is, as we mentioned, mini DV booming, and the early micro horror type stuff coming about. Now I don't need to play to anything. I can just do a film. And, you know, I realized a couple films ago, and I try to be a humble guy about things, but, um, so I never see myself as somebody like this popular star type person that's just not myself, but, but now people seem to want to watch my films for me and not for, you know, certain actor I put in him, or whatever, you know what I mean. So that kind of allowed me the freedom to go, kind of go out and make, you know, gauntlets here, and say, You know what, I don't have to worry about trying to get a gimmicky name or do something like that. And I can go out and be myself now, and people will watch it for me, and I don't have to worry about trying to draw them in with something else. So,

Dave Bullis 43:40
Yeah, and, you know, I found that too Len, because when I was showing, I think, swamp zombies to a few people, they actually were like, Hey, where's Len at? They actually, and I'm not just saying next, I'm all, you know, doing this interview with you, but I'm dead serious. They were like, you know, they, they, they always felt that the movie, really, you know, quote, unquote, came alive, you know, when you were on screen. So, you know, honestly, and that that works well, honestly, Len, because the just like you said, you can actually focus on, hey, look, you know, I'm in the movie. It's just me. You know, people want to watch for you, and you don't have to, you know, you know, do anything. You know, you know what I mean. And that that's a great advantage to have.

Len Kabasinski 44:12
Yeah, and come to challenge of five gauntlets there, I will not disappoint them. I am the lead character in it. I don't know how many lead roles I got in me anymore. I mean, I would like to stay behind the camera more, much like I did for Angel of reckoning, which I got a lot of love for, that film. I think it turned out pretty well for for, you know, that kind of thing. But you know, even going back as I've had to close caption my films from the Amazon Prime, I've really been living a lot with the movies like Swan zombies and curse of the wolf and Fist of the vampire lately. And I'll say this, though, for Fist of the vampire, I was, you know, I would put that movie up against a lot of micro, windy stuff being made today. And Fist of the vampire is 10 years old now, so there's, I still think there's some good stuff in there, you know, swamp zombies, Curse of the wolf. There's a lot of growing pains, but, but fist, I think, has some, some decent stuff in it. Still that that can translate to today's micro filmmaking world. So,

Dave Bullis 45:06
Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, you know, just as we as we all grow, and we all do our different films, we see different things happening. And we in this world that we're in, land is constantly changing. You know, there's constantly new technology coming out. There's constantly new distribution realms. I mean, I mean hell in in 2006 for first of the vampires and seven, Amazon Prime was even a thing, right? You know? I mean, it's, it's like, now all of a sudden, you know, you there's, there's an article a friend of mine wrote. He goes, if you were an indie filmmaker today, what's better YouTube or or Amazon Prime? You know, which one is going to help the filmmakers more? And at the end of the article. You know, spoiler alert, he picks Amazon Prime and and he feels that that's much better because YouTube has a lot of different selections of like, Hey, watch me play video games. Hey, watch me. You know, practice guitar. Well, if you're on Amazon Prime, it's there to watch movies, exactly, right? You're just there to watch movies.

Len Kabasinski 45:58
Yeah, that's smart. Yeah, yeah, there is no, you know, music, whatever that. I mean, YouTube can be anything. It'd be some I'm not playing with his dog in the backyard or whatever. But, I mean, when you're in Amazon, right? You're there to watch movies. So, yeah, I think that's a good way to go. And I think I'm gonna go that route when I've got a movie called Blood prism coming out that's gonna wrap in probably two months here. And that is another one, though, where, again, fans might see it and be like, oh, man, where's Len because I am not in the movie. I just, I wrote, I co wrote and direct it. It is a dark comedy. There is no action, fight scene type stuff in it. It's a dark comedy film. But I also, with that, want to show people, I mean, if they check it out, it's a, you know, I'm not a one trick type thing. I mean, yeah, I love martial art films and stuff like that. I love micro horror movies and stuff. But I also want to show that I'm not old school or new school. I'm I want to be all school So, and that's what I'm trying to kind of prove to people in blood prisms. So, uh, hopefully they'll check it out. But it's a very, very, very different, different movie.

Dave Bullis 47:00
Yeah, and I'm going to make sure to link to all your stuff in the show notes. Len, you know, I know we've been talking for about 45 minutes now. I know you know we're running out of time, because I know you have, you know you want to, you have a couple things to do before the premiere tonight. So Len, just in closing, just to sort of wrap up everything. Is there anything that we can get a chance to talk about that maybe you want to talk about right now, or anything you want to sort of say, just to put a period then this whole conversation

Len Kabasinski 47:21
Just to check out, like we just started a Patreon page. It's only a $2 we just have a $2 level. It's a patreon.com/killerwolffilms. If you want to check it out, I film new content every month, so it's not like you're giving me $2 and it just sits there, whatever. I really just only kept it at that level. It's not really more than that. It's, uh, you know, it's not a cash grab type, type thing for me. It's like, hey, you know, help me get lights or a camera or get a stunt man or something like that, in by by, you know, joining our Patreon. So, so we did start the Patreon campaign there. I'm on Twitter, twitter.com/terrible, films. Or you can hit me up at Facebook. I'm out of like friends things now, so you can't friend me because it won't let me. I guess I'm at a limit or something like that. But, you know, whatever, that's stupid. But yeah, there's they put a limit on your friends so, so that's very whatever. That seems like, communistic, almost. But yeah, you have a cap on the number of friends you can have, but check me out at facebook.com it's slash len.kabasinski or killer wolf films is on there too. But yeah, there's those new things I'm doing now. There's so many new things coming out, swamp zombies, Curse of the wolf. This the vampire. They're all coming back to DVD. They're out of print now. I'm working hard on them now to get them back out there. Like I said, Swan zombies will probably be first up, and it should be out by October 1, I would imagine so. So there's those things. Hellcats revenge should be on DVD by the end of the year, coming from worldwide multimedia. Blood prism, again, is another brand new movie that I just got done shooting a few months ago. That should be out by the end of the year on DVD, and then challenge the five gauntlets I'm writing. But also something that kind of fell into my lap within the last week or two. Here was a sequel to swamp zombies, which I know we didn't get to talk about much, but that might start, that could start shooting as soon as a month away. And that's filming in the Philadelphia area there. So swamp zombies, two would happen. It's kind of a Running Man mixed with survivor mixed with a zombie movie type story. So Newt Whalen, who owns a theater in Philly there, he actually wrote the script, and I was kind of just kind of changing and picking at things with them there. It's a really cool story. So I hope the ball gets rolling on that, and it'll, it'll continue my stuff, like, like I said, swamp zombies too, with it, with a name like Swan, zombies are not expecting to get Gone With the Wind type stuff there. But, you know, it's I told him that, you know, much like I told Red Letter Media when we were kind of talking about a bite of the mummy picture is, you know, I'm still Len. I'll still be Len, but at the same time, the swamp zombie production kind of Len is long gone. You know what I mean? I'm not interested in not getting better with lighting and sound and those kinds of things. So if you want that more shittier level of production, I'm not interested in going backwards. I just want to, you know, I want to continue my trend to getting better at those things. So as long as they were cool with that, I was cool with that. I still love trauma movies, Swan, zombies, two will still be that campy Troma ish kind of movie, but yet still have really good lighting and good sound and those kinds of things. So So I hope everybody can check it out, drop by my Patreon, or hit me up on Twitter or whatever. So I try to be super interactive with the fans. You know, I get dinged every time somebody sends me a message, so it takes me, you know, they're like, Len, you must not have anything to do if you're responding to all these fans. And I'm like, No, it's not that. It's just it takes me 10 seconds, if let not less, to just drop by and say, Hey, thanks for watching my stuff or whatever. So I appreciate everybody that's that's kind of supported killer wool films through the years here. And like you said, it started in 2004 when I started writing swamp zombies. And we're in the 2017 now. And I, you know, much like I said before, I'm still here, so I'm not going anywhere. So jump on board

Dave Bullis 51:26
And everybody. I will link to everything that Len talked about. Len and I talked about in the show notes. Len Kabasinski, I want to say, man, it's been an absolute blast talking with you.

Len Kabasinski 51:39
Thanks for having me on any time as we get closer to other, you know, newer releases I have towards the end of the year, or whatever. Let's do it again, brother.

Dave Bullis 51:46
You know what Len, I love to have you back on anytime. Man, I you know you and I could talk all day about this stuff. Oh, you talk about old movies too.

Len Kabasinski 51:53
Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah. I'm a wealth of stuff. And speaking of that, just quickly on the Patreon page, I have a lens forgotten movie den, where I talk a lot about direct to video, maybe films you haven't heard of. Usually it's a lot of like 80s films or early 90s films. But I talked about movies like overkill with Aaron Norris, or I talk about George Rivera's fist fight, or a movie I adore from the 80s. So yeah, just just on a tangent there, about talking about movies all day. I try to do that. I pick a film each month to try to bring to your attention. I don't critique them or anything, but I just kind of say, Hey, there's this movie I really love. You should check it out, kind of thing. So again, thanks for having me, man. And enjoy your Sunday.

Dave Bullis 52:31
You too, Len, and I wish you the best of luck with Hell's cat revenge and now all the other things you got going on. So I wish you, but I know the Premier is tonight, so I wanted to focus on that. So best of luck with that, my friend,

Len Kabasinski 53:18
Thanks a lot man, take care.

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BPS 441: Comedy, Confidence, and the Art of Reinvention with Rhonda Shear

October 16, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Some moments in life are stitched together like the seams of a well-loved garment, their fabric woven with laughter, reinvention, and a refusal to let the world dictate what is possible. On today’s episode, we welcome Rhonda Shear, a woman who embodies this spirit of transformation with a playful wink and an unstoppable drive. Many remember her as the effervescent host of USA Up All Night, where she brought an entire generation into the cult world of late-night B-movies, but her journey extends far beyond the glow of a television screen.

Rhonda Shear is an actress, comedian, entrepreneur, and accidental feminist, though “accidental” may not quite capture the intentionality with which she has shaped her life. Her story arcs from the glitz of Hollywood to the entrepreneurial success of her intimate apparel empire, with plenty of misadventures and revelations in between. She grew up in New Orleans, a city that instilled in her a sense of pageantry and performance, leading her from beauty pageants to acting, stand-up comedy, and ultimately, to building the number one selling bra in the world, the Ahh Bra.

From the outside, her career may look like a sequence of lucky breaks, but Rhonda speaks to something deeper—the power of embracing reinvention without losing authenticity. Hollywood tried to confine her to a singular image, the bubbly blonde bombshell, but she turned it into her own brand of comedy, injecting intelligence into satire and challenging expectations. “People told me, ‘You can’t be sexy and be funny.’ And I said, ‘Watch me,’” she recalls.

Her experiences in the entertainment industry—auditioning against preconceived notions, breaking into stand-up at a time when female comedians were still a rarity, and later navigating the world of business—illustrate the universal lesson that one does not have to be what the world expects. Rhonda’s path has been a testament to self-creation, a refusal to be boxed in by labels. In her book Up All Night: From Hollywood Bombshell to Lingerie Mogul, she shares the lessons gleaned from a life spent dancing between entertainment and entrepreneurship, always with an eye on what’s next.

One of the most refreshing things about Rhonda is her unwillingness to bow to negativity. When the reality TV industry came knocking, hoping to manufacture conflict in her life, she turned them down. “I don’t do drama,” she says. “I don’t need to create problems where there are none.” This philosophy extends into her approach to life and business—where others see obstacles, she sees opportunities. Whether it’s transitioning from comedy to commerce or proving that reinvention is possible at any stage of life, Shear radiates the certainty that success is about mindset as much as talent.

Her journey isn’t just about professional transformation; it’s about love, too. In a twist straight out of a romantic comedy, she reunited with her high school sweetheart decades later, and together they built an empire. Their story reminds us that some things are destined to find their way back to us, no matter how much time has passed.

Life, as Rhonda Shear so effortlessly demonstrates, is about embracing every chapter with humor and grace. The journey from late-night TV to the boardroom isn’t as unlikely as it seems—it’s simply the next scene in a story written by someone unwilling to accept limitations.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:07
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

And I don't like to play favorites, but this is actually one of my favorite episodes because I grew up watching USA up all night all the time. I remember when this was on, I found so many movies because USA up all night. And my guest this week was a host of USA up all night from 1991 to 1998 she's acting in TV shows like Happy Days, married with children, duck man, just to name a few. In 2001 she launched, launched her own woman's intimate line, and she has the number one selling bra in the world, and her new book up all night, from Hollywood bombshell to Andre mogul, life lessons from an accident dental feminist is out on October the third, 2017 so that'd be next month. In this episode, we chat a lot about movies, finding the courage to follow your dreams, preventing yourself at any age, it's just tons more again, one of my favorite episodes with guests Rhonda Shear.

Rhonda Shear 2:49
Happy to speak to. Heard nothing but amazing things about you. So thanks for having me on.

Dave Bullis 2:54
Oh, thank you, Ron. I really appreciate that. And you know, I really wanted to have you on to because I grew up watching up all night, or USA is up all night, and I

Rhonda Shear 3:03
Wait, let me do it. Dave day, wait, wait. USA, Up all night. I know I have to do that.

Dave Bullis 3:14
I remember that all the time. I mean, sometimes I wouldn't even remember the movies, but I remember, I remember that because, you know, I remember to finding a lot of movies I never heard of before from, from that intro. And I remember, I just remember that intro, the first time I ever saw it was, you, you doing that. And I remember, like it was so great, because it's so it's so catchy, because, you know what, I mean, it gets so

Rhonda Shear 3:35
Absolutely, and it's so funny that you say that. Because, you know, when I first, you know, there was another gal before me that hosted up all night with Gilbert on I was always on Friday, and Gilbert Gotti was on Saturday. And I'm blanking on her name right now, but anyway, you might be able to think Carolyn Caroline, Caroline Caroline. And so she was there about a year and a half before I got there. And I know people really loved her, and I thought she was actually very good. But, you know, it was USA Network that wanted to replace her for whatever reason. And I think they were going a little bit, they thought it being a little bit sexier. They wanted to kind of go for it. So I did. But I always thought, when I got it, I always thought, you know, you have to come up with kind of a catch phrase. And because, years ago, I'm from New Orleans. And when I was in New Orleans, I used to do this commercial for it was an all female, you know, like class, like pre, you know, all the gyms that were mixed, they used to have, like, men gym, female gyms. I was called a shape spa for all women. And I used to, and the catchphrase was, let's get in shape. So that was kind of like my thing. I'm going to do it all through my teens and then my 20s. In my 20s. And so it always caught. And wherever I would go in New Orleans, everybody shape spot girl. So anyway, that kind of brought me back to that. And so I said, I have to come up with some way of saying, show that kind of catches. And so hence that, that's how that was born. And and, of course. It was the little bit of a ditzier character. But if you really listened to the character, you know, it was fun and smart comedy. But if you would just, I guess, channel surfing, you would just see a lot of blonde hair, a lot of cleavers and up all night. But anyway, it was good. It was a good run almost, almost eight years. So kind of cool to have that long line on the show, on any show, on today.

Dave Bullis 5:25
Yeah. I mean, that's absolutely amazing, because I actually looked it up, because I didn't even know the total number of episodes off the top of my head. I mean, there's like 900 episodes of up all night. And, I mean, right, you did it for like, eight years. I mean, that's an insane number of episodes.

Rhonda Shear 5:39
It really is. Well, you know what it is? It's because we taped every week, as opposed to, like, you know, most episodic shows, or, like, 22 a season. But we were, we were on every week, so we either tape every week and then the show moved to New York for a while. I didn't move to New York, but we would go to New York and take four or five, you know, bank them, and then they would air. So it was really cool to have that much fun. And I had, unfortunately or fortunately, I guess they kept changing producers and directors on me. I don't know what they wanted, but actually, in looking back, I'm so friendly with all these people, and each one brought something else to the table. Well, of course, in the very early years, it was really sexy and sassy and a little lingerie. And for a couple of years, and then it kind of changed, and it became more interview style. And then when we got to New York, it really changed. But I think people remember the earlier years, but for me as a performer, they were all cool, because I really got to, you know, have a lot of saying what I want to do. So first, you watched the late, like, even the last year, we did a lot of, I did a lot of impressions of like, Lucille Ball and Cher and, like some of my I powered you a lot of my favorite ladies on television. So that was really cool. But yeah, that I did 450 episodes myself, and I think I'm the only one that has most. I mean, I have probably at least 400 might be missing a few, but I actually had them. You know, that was part of my contract that they had to give me a video tape of everything. So most of those have been down or uploaded, I should say, and then a lot of them are still on DVD. So eventually we'll get to them and put them all on YouTube. But I'm the only one that they literally USA Network dispose of them back then, because of the tape, just saving tape. Can you imagine how? What a shame. So I think I even the producer. Some of the producers have a few shows, but I have most of them. Of course, I don't have the movies. I used to have all the movies. What they would do. USA Network would send me the movie to watch. And you know, of course, then you know how much you know I do the do the wraparounds later on? I should have saved all those movies, although I wouldn't have had the rights to them myself. But people always say, you have this film, you have that. And back in the day, I did, but for my my own storage, I couldn't, you know, I we actually did two movies, or I hosted three movies every Friday night. So we, we hosted and wrapped around two and then the third one was just voiceover, but they would send me all the movies ahead of time, so I would have had a really great collection of B Films if I would have kept them all. But it's funny, it's a genre that is kind of coming back. Even a few years ago, I was asked to do a film, and everyone really misses that genre and the fact that it was kind of innocent, like everybody thought you would see more, see more skin or hear more language than than you really got. So it was kind of titillating without being nasty or what have you so anyway, interesting time. I'm glad I was part of it. And even being part of early basic cable, which was USA Network, was the first full out basic cable. So very cool time. I'm glad I was part of it, of course, and it led to, obviously, many other opportunities and wonderful things.

Dave Bullis 8:52
Yeah, I was going to say that there really is nothing like this on TV anymore, because this, you know, as I was saying earlier, introduced me to a lot of films that I wouldn't have seen otherwise, you know, because, again, you know, your character was great. It was, it was engaging. You actually enjoyed, you know, doing what you were doing. You know, again, I imagine watching all these movies, you know, you're probably, you know, you're getting a feel for these movies. You know, this was a comedy right on Elm Street. Obviously, that's, you know, more of a horror. But, you know, yeah, you but you know, it really is nothing like this.

Rhonda Shear 9:24
Believe me, I still get, I still have fans reach out to me and say, I really miss this. I mean, I grew up with this. Of course, I always can say I got a lot of boys, I think I did, but I have a lot of female fans in the show too, as well. But there isn't anything. I mean, of course, Elvira was, you know, she was syndicated, I know, Cassandra Peterson. And then they had Joe, Bob Briggs. And then they had, they had, I guess the later one was a dinner in the movie, which was, you know, a knockoff of us, in a way. But, um. They were all good in their own way. And then, I don't know of any, there might be some local people that do it. I mean, all of this burned from local people that did it back in the day. And you know, even though virus started off a local show on Channel Five in LA, and then that became syndicated. But now it's a shame, it's really, it's a sweet it looks it's really all about, I mean, what it was about then was making people tune in to the commercials and keeping them entertained with these films, so that, you know, USA would make money off the ads. Well, I don't think anybody realizes it, but that little show made a fortune for USA Network offseason, but the ads and that funded a lot of their early original programming, like LA fam Nikita and other shows like that. So we were like this little cable show that cost very little to produce that was making some big dollars, some big bucks for the network. So, good time. Good time to be in TV experiment. A little bit fun. I hosted the show from 91 to 98 everybody thinks it was in the 80s because I kept my hair big. But I didn't start till January of 91 and just had a great time with it, yeah.

Dave Bullis 11:21
And I remember some of those other USA shows too. By the way you met, you mentioned La Femme Nikita. And I remember, like, you remember duck man, that show.

Rhonda Shear 11:29
Duck man, yeah, I actually did a couple of episodes of it as Rhonda. I wasn't a dog coming up. That was Rhonda. And then I did, then we had all science. I was an episode of that. I was on the other show. I was almost at Nikita. Darn. I'm blanking on the other name of the show. I can't believe. I can't think of it. But then they started off, which really made them put before up all night. Was Night Flight, which is a lot of people still remember. I vaguely remember, but because it was before May, but that was their first kind of out there programming of, you know, interstitial, late night television. So it was a really cool network to be part of in the early days. And then they got into, I wish, I mean, from, I mean, I don't watch us as much. I just don't do much, a lot of television. But I always, I'm told that it was better back in the day. I think it was just, it was a little more raw and a little bit more experimental. And, you know, everything is so and everything so much more reality today than scripted, because we were a little bit of both. We had a little we had a little script, and then a lot of, like, flying by the seat of our pants, but it would take about 12 hours to film those. I mean, because I would fill anywhere between 30 minutes of time till to an hour, depending on how much was cut out of the film is, how much, you know, how, how short the films are. So I it just depended on the film. Sometimes I would have to fill a longer period. So people think that people thought that we were live, we were never live. And we taped in the day, usually, unless we were doing a night event or something, and we shot for hours. It was, it was a, I mean, it was definitely a lot more hard work than I think people thought. But I had a blast, and I had going people in my life and and that produced it and directed it. And a lot of people that were young people that started off and went on to do amazing things, like, like, one of the young producers, I think he produces bill now, so, I mean, they went on to do some pretty amazing things after that.

Dave Bullis 13:33
Yeah, and you mentioned one thing too Rhonda, which is about how TV is nowadays. And, you know, I wanted to get your take on this. You know, I think back in the in the 90s and the and even the 80s were, you know, a lot of these, like new TV shows, you know, were breaking ground, and they were something new, and they were fresh. My whole take on this, and something that I've noticed is that they let the hosts, like yourself, be themselves, and they really didn't say, say, hey, Rhonda, here's a 90 page script you have to memorize. They then, you know, would let you be yourselves. And I think as we get along to TV nowadays, it's more of, here's a script. Read it and don't, don't venture off this script. And I think it really makes a lot of shows to cookie cutter, because all the characters are talking the same. You know what I mean,

Rhonda Shear 14:22
Absolutely, and even in reality, which everybody thinks of reality, I can tell you this. I mean, some of my friends, I did a lot of talk shows and hosted and hosted on talk shows back in that era, and a lot of these young producers are now the people who are kicking butt in reality TV. So I was kind of, I did a lot of basically reality TV, but they were just segments that reality TV is not so real. I mean, yes, they don't necessarily have scripts at what that they memorize, but the producers really push you into situations, and they'll say, Oh, I'd like to see you and I. That guy and that girl, and I'd like to see this happen. So you're kind of pushed those, those reality shows aren't necessarily as real. So I mean, they and they kind of stir the pot to make, you know, tension happen. And I just because of that, it's kind of manufacturing its own. That's why a lot of reality shows all feel the same, because the same thing, they're pushing for fighting, or they're pushing for, you know, for stuff to happen. So it's not organic. And yeah, we had a really good time. I mean, even if we were scripted, and we had certain jokes that were scripted, I mean, Gilbert and I were really able to be ourselves, and it was really fun to experiment with that. And by the way, we had so many guests on both of us. McIlroy had all these great comedians in New York, and I had great comics, and I also had cheerleaders, and, you know, I had actors and actresses, stand up, comics, and just all kinds of people, singers and what, you know, from all walks of Williams. And that was fun. That kind of came into Rhonda world back then. So, yeah, I mean, and then we, we would shamelessly promote whatever, you know, if they had a movie out or a book out, we would promote them, and we had fun with it, and we were we would kid about how shameless we are, and we would do spoofs off of Letterman was big at the time and his list of 10. And so we would do our own list of craziness. And I had all kinds of fans. I had foot feathers, fans that love my feet and my shoes and all that we would cater to, you know, whoever would really write us and really pay attention, we would give them a shout out. And, no, you don't see that happening anymore when you really cater to fans, you know, we did. We took, we took the fan mail. Really, we have fan mail night. So I just read fan mail, and that was fun.

Dave Bullis 16:44
And you would, you would also, just because you were being yourself, and you know, it was also you were having fun, and you having fun with it, you know, because you could just go on, you know, be yourself. And like you said, you do have some scripted jokes, but they allowed you, you know, you were a character. And then, you know, well, that's why I think a lot of today. It's just, it's harder and harder. It's almost like they want to homogenize things in terms of, like, you know, I mean, you know how it is. So somebody probably looked at, you know, a sheet or something, and said, Well, hey, people really are responding to this on that show. So what if we, you know, what if we did this and, and that's what I think happens, happens today is you have people who've been looking at, like, so many numbers and stuff like that, that they just think, right? You know, hey, look, we have a formula we've made, and if we plug this right in, we're going to make hit after hit after hit. And I think that's what,

Rhonda Shear 17:30
100 100% right? It's more scientific today than it is organic. And that that was kind of sad, I agree, because I've, like, I've pitched TV shows, and in the beginning, I really, in the beginning. I mean, years ago, I wanted to do a reality show, because there was so much craziness in my life. You know, I manufacture and produce undergarments, which, of course, was a, you know, came out of wearing so many intimate apparel on up all night. But I, you know, I want, I thought it was such, such a funny business to be in. I mean, you know, you're actually talking panties and bars. And I pitched it. And you know, people, you know, they liked it, but they wanted it. They wanted they wanted to see my husband's my business partner, and they wanted to see us fighting and have him, you know, me being jealous of the models. And I said, that isn't happening. I mean, I'm not going to make up something that's not real. And, I mean, these producers, I had a father, successful, but he actually, he kept pushing. You know, what your husband's thinking, you're trying to make something happen that doesn't happen. I mean, we can look at beautiful girls and think they're beautiful, but that doesn't mean he left or wants you know that you're trying to make something happen. It's completely untrue. So that's what happens on those reality shows. I think it's kind of yucky, you know. So we didn't agree to go down that road at all. I mean, you know, that's a bad road to go down.

Dave Bullis 18:54
Oh, yeah. And, I mean, if that would cause you problems off camera as well, because, you know, right?

Rhonda Shear 19:00
Yeah. I mean, that's just bad. It's just bad. And then, besides that, it's not who I am. I'm not negative. That's not who I who I am as a person, and that's not how I talk to my customers. No, you know, I'm more of a positive, flirty, fun, you know, I kid about my husband, but I I don't believe in negative and nastiness. I mean, a lot of these people end up getting divorces and some bad stuff happening on these reality shows, but, and I do think it's the fault of the producers for pushing them down certain bad roads. So yeah, I don't need to do that. Yeah. Don't need any of that in my life. As one of the positives, there's enough negative that happens. You know that you don't want to happen. There's all these things in business or life, but you don't need to push that into your life, and that's what they want. They always want to have that kind of Ying and Yang and the fight and people fighting and arguing and pulling hair. And I'm like, not me,

Dave Bullis 19:52
Yeah, it's kind of like Jersey Shore. I think that that reality show, I think, ruined a lot of producers because, like, we need more of that. And it's like, you know, that was so manufactured. And you know now, it's like, oh, you know. And, or the Kardashians, that was another, I think, that just, you know, it was a, I think, again, like we were talking about formulas. And I think that that was too much of a lot of work. Producers could look at that and say, Hey, see, we could be that. Do that show, right? You know, look at what Kim can do from that show. It's like, well, yeah, it's that's not something most people really,

Rhonda Shear 20:35
All the housewife shows, you know that the fact that they keep me, I've never watched any of them, you know. And people say, the other semester, I've never seen any of they just don't intrigue me or interest me at all. Totally get it. I mean, I'm, hey, good for them. That makes me happy. But, you know, I like the old fashioned piece of people becoming celebrities because they actually had talent, you know. I mean, I was a stand up comic for many years, and the Jerry Seinfeld were around, and those people, and that's, that's, that's where I came from. People had to really be funny and write a good joke. And and my days of stand up and a new one was kind of doing the sexy stand up comedy, female comic comedy at all when I started in 1984 85 and so it was kind of a category. They didn't know what to do with me. But, I ended up getting booked and headlining and all over but, I mean, nowadays, I would have been right in there with the Amy Schumer's, but back then, they didn't want that. Of course, I'm not. I'm a feminist in my own way, but I but not the way these women are, like the Amy Schumer movies. You know, she's attacking the guy. I'm still that old fashioned girl. It's like, I want the guy, you know, coming on to the girl and being flirty, but I don't, I don't like, it's just, I like just a little bit more old fashioned in my life. I think it's sexier, but whatever you want to call it out of old fashioned. But that's just the way I was brought up. And I still think, you know, that's just, I still think guys like that at the end of the day, I don't think they wrestle with love aggressive women, and those are that aggressive. You can still be a feminist that my books about, by the way, I do have a book out, you know, that will be actually hitting it's a pre sale right now on Amazon called, called up all night, and it's the life and journey of an accidental feminist, which I really think my life was, because I did so many pageants, I was in Miss Louisiana that I was a saints cheerleader about the New Orleans. And then I went on to Los Angeles and did Happy Days and was co starred on a lot of television. And then eventually up all night, and then I reunited with my high school sweetheart 16 years ago, and we started the current business. I am on the Rhonda shear brand of intimate apparel. And so it was about, you know, my book covers, you know, my early life. I ran for public office when I was young. It talks about that, how I was accepted to law school. But then I went to Hollywood, and I was very I was typecast immediately as a sexy girl. And I thought it, but it just, it didn't work. So eventually I just went with it. And so it, the book has all these life lessons on how to use what's God given. And I mean, basically, I was a feminist in my own way, and stood up and stood my ground and always did and always got things my way, but I also used the things that were given to me in life. So I didn't know I wasn't this aggressive or outwardly aggressive woman, but yet, I did fight for my own rights, just I did it my way. So the book has a lot of life lessons and tips, along with comedy and a lot of pictures from up all night and my younger life. And I'm really excited. It actually, like I said, it's on pre sale right now on Amazon called Rhonda. It's up. Actually, it's called up all night by Rhonda shear, but it It literally will be out October 3 is when everything you know, hits HSN and all the other places. So we're in bookstore, so we're very excited about it.

Dave Bullis 24:04
And I'm going to link to that in the show notes everybody, because I actually saw Ron was writing the book, and I thought this would be a great time to approach you. Rhonda, about, you know, coming on this podcast. Because, you know, thank you. Oh, my pleasure. Thanks for, you know, for coming on. And I will link to that in the show notes, because again, I love the title, obviously. And again, you know, some of the things you were just talking about, about using your strengths and, you know, and using, you know, not trying to fight resistance. You know what I mean, like people were saying to you, you know, hey, you know, hey, Rhonda, this or that, the other thing. And you know, you just mentioned about, you know, finding your talents and finding what you do, what you really like to do, and are very good at and you use that, and you were able to, you know, build this whole empire you have now you have a clothing line, which is doing very well, by the way. I actually, you know, to prepare for this interview. I actually looked it up, and I didn't know you have, like, the number one selling bra in the world. I think,

Rhonda Shear 24:57
Yes, it's called the ah bra. Ah bra. Yes, which I always believed in taglines, and it just that it's very comfortable, wireless, no hooks and eyes, bra, and it it took off. I started doing it at 2003 that really took off, like in 2009 10. And then we did an infomercial. Then lo and behold, it became the best selling bra in the world, with over 35 million sold in 34 countries. And we continue to do the bra along with other bras. So we basically came up with a category of bras. So, and we also started, you know, after ah bra, then we have the ah lifestyle clothing. And now I'm starting to get another lounge line called ah dreams by Rhonda shear. So it's really exciting. And this is something that came out of my husband and I getting married and reunited, and we started this business just to work together because we hadn't seen each other really since we were kids, and he was living in Louisiana, and I was living in Hollywood, and we put this together, never thinking that it would have the success that it did. But, you know, we both complimented each other as good as people, me as a spokesperson. He, you know, behind the scenes and the financial end of it. So very cool. So the book talks about love later in life and finding a soulmate. It talks about, you know, becoming an entrepreneur later in life, and that you can reinvent at any age. And so I have a lot of tips, along with being really funny. I mean, there's some really funny stories. Now my Hollywood stories and some fun pictures. So I think it's a book for everyone to read, both men and women. Think we'll really enjoy it. So I mean, then I have to say accomplishing and writing a book is something I always wanted to do, and I actually am getting ready to start my second one, because it kind of gets into your blog. But I have to say it's like, one of the proudest things that I've done is, like, you know, actually writing down, because I thought I really feel I have a lot to share with a lot of people, and you also want to remember some of those amazing moments in your life. And because this, you know, I get up and I do a lot of speeches, and people love to hear my story and my story with my husband. And, you know, it's a very loving tale of two people who were first, first loves. We met when we were 12 and 13, and then getting back together and then starting a business. I mean, gosh, now you never even dream that. That's why you kind of have to go sometimes where life needs you. And again, that's like, not manufactured. So people want you to manufacture this stuff. And I just feel like you have to be really real in life and very authentic and and stick with whatever you're doing. And you know, all dreams can come true.

Dave Bullis 27:30
You mentioned about reinventing yourself. You know, if there's one thing I've learned about this podcast is I've talked interviewed people from all walks of life, and one thing that they've all sort of mentioned, in mentioned is, one way or another, is reinventing themselves. You know, some people, they didn't, they didn't pick up a camera until they, you know, they were 40 50, years old, and they were able to go out films. And, you know, some people, they ended up, you know, winning Sundance, and they ended up just sort of, you know, doing something completely different now. And you know, it's just, it's amazing.

Rhonda Shear 28:03
It's taking chances, Dave, a lot of so, you know, when my husband, I got together, he was living in Louisiana, I was living again in LA. We took a chance, and we moved to Florida after a couple years to start our business, because Home Shopping Network, which is known as HSN, now it's branded as HSN is located in Florida, so we figured if we moved here, that it would really help our business move it along, would be in front of the right people, and it did. But so many people are so complacent where they live and what they do that they won't take that chance. So it's one of the things I always told entrepreneurs and all people, is that sometimes you have what's the worst that'll happen? You can always go back home or back but it's where you began. But if you don't take a chance at something, and people get stuck in ruts and won't do it. So when you talk about these people, I am sure and interview with people, I am sure that they all took answers. And there's some of us that will do that and some that won't. So I always like to encourage people that, hey, it's cool. It's okay. Go for it. Nothing bad will happen. You'll always wonder in your life if you don't just like you doing the podcast. I mean, I'm sure it's amazing and that you keep learning things, and, you know, it's amazing to interview people and hear how they've made it, or how they've changed. And, you know, I use the word reinvent, but it's not even that I started out doing things when I get married, we both had to change, you know, directions Korea for for different reasons. You know, I wasn't, you know, wasn't 21 sexy girl stuff anymore. Not that I couldn't be the sexy older girl, but you know, you have to be real in where you are in your life. And yet, I didn't want to stop working. So it's just like, Okay, well, let me continue doing something that is I love, near and dear to me. I can still be myself, but it's just another extension of myself and my husband as well. He was a businessman. He had never done anything in the obviously, apparel world, but he just applied everything that he knew about business to what we're doing, same thing. So a lot of people are just afraid to do that, and no reason to be so, you know, living in my dream house in Florida, I got the five dogs very happy, and we don't know where life will take us next. The book is exciting because that's kind of taking me on another journey. I'm getting offers to make speeches and appearances and some TV talk shows, and just hired a publicist, and he's got some really exciting plans, and we're to do a book signing in New Orleans the weekend of October the 27th and then, which is a fun weekend, because it goes almost right into Halloween. And then we're going to do a book signing here in Florida, St Petersburg, Tampa area, the weekend of october 14. So you know, just those two things I am so excited about, because I'm sure I'll get a lot of my Up All Night fans. I'm sure I'll have some fans from who watch me on HSN and are big, you know, customers of my brand. So it's neat, you know, just you just living life. I don't, I don't look back and go, gee, I wish I was still this age, or I still wish I would, I just look forward and think, wow, I still got time to do accomplish a lot more. Yeah, it's fun.

Dave Bullis 31:30
Yeah, absolutely. And you probably took a chance writing that book because, you know, I have a friend of mine who's a professional author, and he said, if you actually think about writing a book, and what it really is, he goes, You know, it's only been around for this little sliver in human history, and being able to, you know, write it, write an actual book, put it together. And then he said, if you look at it again, in the world that we live in now, Rhonda, you know, you can put, you make a Kindle version. You can do self publishing. You go through a publisher, you have a lot of options. Yeah, that's even a smaller sliver. And he said, if you think about how it actually what it means to write a book. He goes, you as a human being, are sitting down and writing, you know, five digits, you know, in words. So it's a couple 1000s upon 1000s of words and compiling together all these thoughts. And I mean, it's time consuming. And I mean, you probably thought to yourself, you know, hey, I could write this book, or I could go do another thing, I mean, and so you really have to make a choice.

Rhonda Shear 32:23
I love that your son put it that way. I've never thought about it, but it's true and and I did, I did put it off for years, and then I because I've been wanting to do it, but I just felt like it's the right time with everything that's going on in my life. So finally, I just sat down. I do have a ghost writer that kind of put my thoughts into the right order, and then I completely rewrote what he did, and then he loved what I did. I mean, I literally took it and started not over, but just, you know, it had to have my voice completely and then after that, he then took that and really pulled it together. So it was a really, you know, because I had never structured a book. And if, as a new author, you really have to have that right structure. So, you know, it holds people's attention, and it's my life. Because even when Tim, Tim is my, Tim Van der Hey is my ghost writer's name, he's fabulous. I don't mind admitting it at all. But he, he just, you know, really made me understand, you know, that the process and and again, holding attention, and we went back and forth of how, because a lot of my things start in one, one part of my life. So it kind of like goes back, and it keeps going back to certain stories. So I think that's where I needed help, because I would started saying, If I start from the very beginning, then it's going to get boring if I just go through my life. So we did start, you know, we started it like, you know, a certain birthday, and then we told some stories there. So it's very compelling. I'm very excited about it. And again, we put the life lessons in. We also put this, like, basically, like a bubble over my head, so I express to the reader what is going on in my head, like even what I was thinking when I was in a beauty pageant, you know. So how did I feel when I was on stage and in front of an audience with just a swimsuit on? So even though I was young, I never really you know what was going on in your mind. And I think that really gives an insight to the people who read it of what was really happening in my head and what motivated me to continue to do what I did through life, and I'm just really excited about it. So the second book that I'm already concocting in my brain is perfect because it has to do with self, body image and how we look in the mirror as women. So that covers my brand, but it also covers, you know, who I am, and then how you know for life. You know, you gain weight, you lose weight, you know, you get women become self conscious, but then, you know, so it deals with it, but I'm going to do it with a lot of levity and a lot of comedy. So I'm already putting thoughts down about that, and then I could put a lot of the story. Stories that I couldn't fit into the book. I can add those stories back into because it was hard when we edited it. So I know a lot of the stories I would have loved in were taken out. But you can't put everything this way. I get to put back a few of the stories and add to it until some more tales, because I do kiss and tell a little bit in the book about some of my Hollywood stories from people like David and and that's kind of fun. And it's not done viciously. It's just, you know, it's just just just real. There's nothing in it that isn't 100% authentic and real. So, but that's cool. What your friend says was the author, I could see becoming very addicted to that. Now, when I wrote my book, though, here was the only obstacle I had. So I've got these four little schwa with New York, so I'm sitting there writing, and they wouldn't let me write at my desk, so I had to write downstairs on the couch, on a computer, and basically they were climbing over me. So months and months of dogs climbing now, I think that takes a special talent to be able to have dogs on your computer and write more so than anything. But it's a great feat when you finish it and you find then the only thing this is when you need, sometimes, like, thinking, we definitely need an editor. But because you just, like, don't know when you think it's over, and then you think of, oh, I have just one more thing. And then you need, you need that other eye, even outside of my husband or whoever read it, to look at it and go, Okay, you're done. You don't need. You'll write again and you'll put it in there. So it is an interesting process, especially your first book.

Dave Bullis 36:38
Yeah, you know, it's funny, because the friend of mine who's an author who actually said that to me. He said, the first I, you know, he and I would talk back and forth, and I've actually had him on this podcast before, and he said to me that the hardest part about anything is actually starting it. And I said, Well, what's the second hardest part? And he goes finishing it. And I said, Yeah, because, because you just, like, you said, you get stuck in that endless loop of rewrites, like, Oh, should I keep this No, should I not, right? And then you just have to get out your own head.

Rhonda Shear 37:08
I mean, that's what I did. I completely rewrote, you know, I completely rewrote it from scratch, and and, and then it took a different turn. But, you know, at the end of the day, it's exactly where I want it to be, because I think what it was desperately it was more autobiographical in the beginning. And I do have a book agent, and even though we've self published it, we we may still bring it to, you know, major publishing house, which you can do now. And my I do have a book agent in Los Angeles, and when he first started was it's great. It's autobiographical. I can't believe all the things you've done in your life. It's amazing. But the big publishing houses don't necessarily buy complete autobiographical books now. So, and he's, he's, he's a really big book agent who deals with just the big houses, you know? So he said, I think it needs to have more insight. And I didn't know how to do that at first. I didn't I couldn't figure it out. I couldn't figure out how to take what I had already, and then, you know, make it insightful. So that's when we my started thinking of the bubble, you know, like people always know, what is that person really thinking? You know? And so it became like the bubble over my head. And then also, each chapter will have life lessons that I learned at that part of my life. So it really goes back to my, I mean, it has my up all night, years. It has my, you know, years as a miss Louisiana and my New Orleans upbringing, I mean, and that in itself is interesting to grow up in New Orleans and then finding love. So each, each, each chapter really has something for everybody. Entrepreneur, I think, will give a lot of people insight to how to start a business and how to keep going with it and not give up. So, you know, I think, you know, it tells the story of my life, but it also has lessons. I think it's important to to, you know, even if someone has no idea who I am, and they will pick it up and just read, okay, this is a woman who, and, you know, when I started, if, like, I can call it kind of the Bill Cosby years, because when I was in Hollywood, you know, we don't know what, who knows what happened and what didn't happen then, but I can tell you I was, I In Hollywood in the 80s and in that era, and guys would push themselves on you, and they would say, if you don't sleep with me, you are, I will get you blackballed from the business. Now, I never went down that route. Maybe if I would have, I would have been a bigger star, but it wasn't who I am. I always kid about that. If I was swept around, maybe, you know, it would have worked, but it wasn't me. I was. I came from this nice, Southern, strict family, and it wasn't who I was. I mean, it just wasn't, you know, I had, yeah, I had boyfriends, but they weren't, you know, I never chose the big producer types that came after me, but we need some big, big ones. Think of my life. But no one was going to push that down my throat, and I. Pardon the pun, But you know, it was, I was not going down that road of I had to live with myself. So, you know, everything I got, I got on my own. I didn't have family in the business. I knew no one when I first got to Hollywood, and literally, I just did it the old fashioned way of auditioning. When you look at Hollywood today, this connection, it is who your father and mother is, but I moved here, I didn't know us all. So I'm proud of that. I'm proud that I got where I got on my own, and, you know, did get a name for myself and did end up headlining as a stand up comic when I was told you're too pretty or you're too sexy to be a comedian, and I was like, to hell with that. I will do it. I stood in line at the Comedy Store until I got on stage and the improv, until finally I got all the way up to headlining and Vegas. So, I mean, I feel like I really accomplished things that I wanted to and pretty much the book talks about, you know, whenever anybody would tell me I couldn't do something, it would make me try harder. I mean, I've been told that my whole life I was, I was either too pretty or too sexy to do this, or I was, you know, ahead of my time doing stand up, short dresses, whispers, no one was doing it hasn't like being a frumpy mother or or, you know, even in, even in my lingerie business, you can't do that. There's too many other brands out there. You can't start who's going to buy your brand. So, pretty much, my whole life has been you can't and and I have so that just shows you that anybody can do it. If you, if you just can't listen to negativity. I'm, I am a glass half full person, not a half empty person. And I think that makes a difference just who you are, you know. And so when I started the book, I'm like, well, Will anybody read it? I really feel like, you know, after having a few people have that have read it, they have and that people that are like, major people like, you know, a friend who's who's one of the presidents at MGM, and he loves this book, and that really made me feel good, because these people had a lot of lot of manuscripts go past their death. So who knows, maybe one day it'll be a book. I mean, not a book, a movie, yeah, not about, hopefully not a B movie, but I'll take a B movie too. I'm fine with that.

Dave Bullis 42:20
It would be really a meta if you actually introduced it on, like a special edition of USA up all night and introduced your movie.

Rhonda Shear 42:28
You know what's really funny, Dave, was the very first thing I did on the whole night was the very first movie I ever introduced was, or rather, on USA, Up All Night was basic training, which is a movie I started, which had, like, three seconds of toplessness, which I was mortified to do at the time. It was in my contract that it didn't have to be more than three seconds. Of course, I went on to do Cleveland wait in 91 called girls of the of comedy, which I actually brought that idea to them. And then that next year, up all night, had like, taken off, and so they came back and offered me a celebrity pictorial. And so that was really cool. So, you know, I have, you know, so the book also talks about my Playboy years and going to the mansion. So a lot of people like that in itself, you know, because I did go to the mansion for many, many years. Actually, I had a line with crystal Hefner a couple of years back, you know, the, I should say the last Mrs. Hefner. I believe the last Mrs. Hefner. Who is this, Joe, Mrs. Hess. But, you know, so, you know, just, they just want through all those kind of interesting things, and along with, you know, do a lot of charity work, and it talks about that giving back once you've kind of hit a certain spot in life. You we enjoy my husband, I, you know, getting back to the community and kind of hits all that.

Dave Bullis 43:50
But you mentioned, I'm sorry, Ron, you mentioned the Comedy Store. I just want to ask this before I forget. You mentioned the Comedy Store. Did you meet a comedian there named Don Barris?

Rhonda Shear 44:01
Name? From what, how old, or what era, what

Dave Bullis 44:08
He started in the 90s, like the early 90s, he was there, and now he's, like the he does the the he's the headliner on the ding dong show on the Monday nights.

Rhonda Shear 44:18
Oh, maybe that's why I may know a thing that kind of in a probable, I mean, that would have, I still would have been out there, of course, in 91 because, I mean, I was still on the, still on the road, gosh. I mean, I was on the road until, I mean, I still, actually occasionally do stuff, but definitely up into, like 2006 or seven. I was still, you know, out there. I guess I may I know his name from that, but I, I can't say I remember, like, medium, I'm thinking, like, maybe I dated him. I don't remember.

Dave Bullis 44:56
He's been out there for years, and he actually does, like, a lot of work with the comedy. Store every night he's there and,

Rhonda Shear 45:03
Yeah, his name was really familiar to me absolutely,

Dave Bullis 45:07
Because he was like him and Mark marron are really good friends.

Rhonda Shear 45:11
Okay, well, I am sure that we came across each other, but that would have been during my Up All Night years. It was really funny, you know. And I've met so many people to my life, like through New Orleans and then my comedy years of mine now apparel years. And I'll go, I know that name. There's a there's a comedy comic out that's doing really well out there now, named Sebastian. Do you know who he is?

Dave Bullis 45:37
No,

Rhonda Shear 45:39
Okay, if you, if you just Google Sebastian will come up comment, I can never pronounce his last name, right? But anyway, he's major. He has like major, like major shows, major Showtime, all that stuff. And Sebastian used to wait on me as a waiter at the Four Seasons bar or go there was around the corner from my house in Beverly Hills, and we'd go there, and he was funny. And he would say to me, I was on Up All Night at the time. And he would say, I want to be you. You know, LA has a lot of ways of little actors, you know, I mean, it's like the only one thing I didn't do. But, you know, people that legitimately that's, that's their job, that's their day job, or their night job. And he would say, I really admired sweet because he was, I admired, he was a female comic, and he, when he took off, he took off. I mean, he really took off. And I didn't even realize it, because I've been so out of the loop myself, just doing my own thing in the last few years. And then I came across him, like, on social media, and I was like, Man, I'm proud of you. I mean, you know, because he said he was doing, gonna do it, and he did it, and he's got a whole different take. So, yeah, I, you know, stand up comedy is a really rough road. Most of my friends that even started like I started maybe four, but most of my friends have started maybe four are still doing stand up. People usually don't leave that world. And the cool thing is, you can get older and still do comedy, but you just have to find kind of different venues, because, you know, there's a younger world at the Comedy Club. So then people move to ships. They do boats. They do, you know, comedy cruises. They do theater, you know. So you can keep at it. But I have to say, I'm not, I'm happy Dave, and I'm not out there on the road doing that for a living, although every now and then, there's a piece of me that, you know, my friend will come to town, Carol Montgomery. She's hysterical out of New York, and she gets up at a club, and I'll have a cup of glass of wine, and I be like, I want to do what you do. She's like, No, you don't want to give up your life. Your life is good. It's still my it's still in my blood, you know, to make people laugh. And it's still, like game once it's in your blood, it's for your blood. But we every now and then I do Rhonda pajama party, and I'll host it, and I'll do some stand up, and then I have like, four other females, and sometimes I put a male comic in there. So maybe with the book coming out, we'll do that again, which would be really cool.

Dave Bullis 47:55
Yeah, I was just gonna say, when the book comes when the book comes out, if you do like a tour, like, you know there are tour you get, like, another taste of it. So then at the end running, probably like, well, you know what? I got it out of my system again, but now I'm gonna, I'm glad, I'm glad I'm not, I'm not doing this again for until the next book, right?

Rhonda Shear 48:12
Exactly, exactly, but I do. But you know what I love doing is the speaking tours. So I'm excited about that, because I did a lot of it during we won Ernst and Young and all these major entrepreneurial awards for this bra. And I mean, I didn't think about myself as an entrepreneur, you know, but all of a sudden we're winning all these awards, and it was amazing. So I found myself being asked to speak locally and regionally, and all of a sudden I'm getting up making speeches about being an entrepreneur, but I'm funny, and then they're asking questions, apparently, Hollywood background. So I really enjoyed it. I mean, I had never done just speaking without doing stand up, obviously. So I'm really excited that now I'm being submitted and being asked to speak because, you know, there's, there's, there's a few comedic speakers, but not many that can, you know, just tell talk about their life and how they did it. So I'm looking forward to doing that. It's a little bit of stand up and it's a little bit of, you know, information giving. So I look forward to that too. That may be, who knows, that may be the next, the next sort of stand up comedy. It'll just be, you know, entrepreneur speeches.

Dave Bullis 49:23
Yeah, you have to do, like, different podcasts too. Like John Lee podcast, Entrepreneur on Fire. I'm sure you've heard of his podcast, yes, yeah. So it's, like, the one podcast in the world, right, right up there, like Mark Marin's and, like, this is your American life, and, but, but, you know,

Rhonda Shear 49:39
That's good. So you have to help me get this is kind of all new to me too. You know, when you have your head to, you know, I have been a very focused person in my world. So, you know, my life has been Women's Wear Daily and fashion, and so I'm pretty excited about opening this new chapter of, like you said, doing podcasts. I mean, I did Gilbert Godfrey. If you talk about dirty, you're telling that can be uncensored. If you ever go Google, I'm sure, hopefully I'll do it again talk about my book. But if you, if you google and find the Ron to share podcast with Gilbert Gottfried. You might It is beyond dirty. It is like, I mean, he and I, when we get together, I don't know what it is, but he brings out the naughty. And, man, he's naughty, but he think it's naughtier. It's pretty funny. I mean, you know, I've had people say they were walking down the street and listening to it and laughing out loud. People like staring at them. So, yeah, it was pretty funny, because he could do impressions. So I would name different guys, you know, from my past in Hollywood, and then he would go off and just do an impression of them, and you're just laughing. So he's, he's one of the quotes on the back of my book that that, you know, says to buy the book. And then I have Mindy Grossman on the back, who's the CEO of Weight Watchers, and was the CEO of HSN, major business person. And then I have Joy Mangano, who the movie Joy was, was written about. So pretty, pretty exciting, plus a lot of other friends on the inside and celebrities. But it kind of hits show business and entrepreneurs and CEOs. So I'm really excited. I know I'm talking more about the book, but I guess it's just that I'm really excited about it, along with my mind. Listen, you know, please go to Rhonda. Share.com go to hsn.com check out. I have this full amazing line of everything from the most amazing undergarments to loungewear. And I was really enjoy. We literally designed everything in house here in Florida, and then we manufacture all over the world. And a lot of that, lot of my, most of my apparel, like my clothing, is made in the USA, and then a lot of my other pieces are made in Turkey, and we make it China, but we use beautiful factories with real, high quality everything. So that's very exciting, too. And we get into that world. And that was, listen, my husband and I taught ourselves. We we didn't come from that world at all. I came from a background in show business. Next thing you know, you know, we're reaching out to factories. And you know, that was quite an interesting time in our lives, too. But again, you're never too old to read, to recreate, to reinvent and find another career and find love, find all those wonderful things.

Dave Bullis 52:33
Yeah, and that is such a wonderful assignment, Rhonda and but yeah, I mean, I would definitely send you the links to to the podcast I just mentioned. Thank you. Check them out, because

Rhonda Shear 52:42
Please, I want, I want to put it up for sure. There goes my dog. See, they knew the end of the podcast. Yeah, we haven't talked. You're like, Mommy, I'm hungry. Yeah, I must, I must acknowledge their names. We have Chicky, Tiki, Sweetie, Lexie and Brandy, like two and a half for rescues, when I got it at a kind of a rescue.

Dave Bullis 53:11
And now you mentioned your names are probably like, now even more eager, because they're probably like, what? Yeah, is it? Do we do something that you know what's going on, but I will link to everything Rhonda that you mentioned, you know, your thank you and everyone listening. I will link to everything that Rhonda mentioned, show notes at davebullis.com Rhonda, just yeah, just quickly, before we, before we sign off on this episode of the podcast, I just have one final question, and I just want to ask, is there anything that you might want to just, you know, talk about or discuss, or is there anything you wanted just to say to sort of sum up this whole podcast interview?

Rhonda Shear 53:45
Well, you know, just to sum it up is like, I am a positive person. Everybody out there is to think positive and try to run some negativity. I mean, just don't surround yourself with negativity and don't listen. I mean, always, I always like to say, put a stake in it and go for it. In your life. Enjoy your life. Savor your life. I love food. I love everything, you know, I in moderation, obviously, you know, listen, I love fine wine. But I say, enjoy life. Enjoy the journey of your life and and of your business, and then it's fun, and just don't be negative. So that kind of sums up my life. And I've had a had a wonderful life so far, and hopefully it will continue to be amazing. Who knows where I'll end up next, maybe doing a podcast. Who knows, but, but I thank you, Dave, it's been wonderful. And I just, I know you're going to link, but I do have a website too, or a web page of Rhonda shear speaks.com so that's for anybody who is interested in having me as a speaker along with Rhonda shear.com and, of course, Amazon with the book, and I know that you'll promote the rest. And I thank you so much.

Dave Bullis 54:50
My pleasure. Rhonda. Rhonda, it has been so great talking to you. Thank you, Dave. It really has again. I used to watch USA up all night all the time. I. You know, I know I've already mentioned that, but I thought I mentioned it again. I mean, because of you, I found the Toxic Avenger, and I've had

Rhonda Shear 55:05
Lloyd on the last big film I did. He was in it. We had a scene together. Oh, and I was like, I was like, a, like, a bad prisoner, of course, because that's what it was. It was, I can't remember, but anyway, but we actually won best film of the best b film of the year. But anyway, I love Lloyd. Lloyd used to come on up all night, all the time, and taxi came on. I mean, literally, he was one of my regular guests. So he's, he's a great guy, isn't he brilliant, brilliant man. Great guy.

Dave Bullis 55:38
It was funny, really, really quick, because I know you have to run really quickly. When he came on the podcast, he he said that he started trauma in prison with him and Michael hertz because and he was like, Well, I was Michael's prison bitch, and he's we got married. Well, people who listen to that podcast actually wrote into me, and they're like, Dave, is that true? Did he really form this in prison? And I said, No. I said it would have been funny if he did, but I was like, you know, disclaimer before Lloyd's interview, being like, don't, don't pay attention.

Rhonda Shear 56:08
I know, and he is so funny and so brilliant, such a family man. I'm a great guy and and really helped us. Hung up all night because he supplied this great films. And, you know, he we had taxi What can I say? I'm not going to tell you what a good lover he was. People believe that too. Rhonda, it's been an absolute pleasure talking. Thank you. I'm sure we'll do it again anytime, please. Thank you.

Dave Bullis 56:36
Yeah, I was gonna say, when the second book comes out, you have to come back on.

Rhonda Shear 56:39
You've got it, you've got it. Or the next time I'm hosting, or whatever, why? Another reason I'll weasel back on your show somehow,

Dave Bullis 56:48
The door is always open. I thank you so much.

Rhonda Shear 56:50
Thank you, Dave, and please send me the link and I'll talk to you soon.

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BPS 440: Crafting Authentic Stories from Lady Gaga to Sci-Fi Futures with Kim Ray

October 9, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

On today’s episode, we welcome the multi-talented Kim Ray, a writer, producer, and director whose career spans reality TV, documentaries, and scripted projects. Best known for her work on the Netflix documentary Gaga: Five Foot Two, Kim’s journey through the industry is an inspiring tale of creativity, resilience, and innovation.

Our conversation begins with Kim’s fascinating experience co-writing West Bank Story, a parody of West Side Story that cleverly blended humor with themes of peace and cultural commonality. As Kim describes, “It was about showing that even in a world full of conflict, there’s so much that connects us.” The project, which gained significant recognition, was a testament to her ability to merge art with meaningful messages.

Kim’s transition into reality television was both unexpected and transformative. While it wasn’t her original focus, she brought her narrative expertise to shows like The X Factor and Kendra on Top. “Reality TV,” Kim explains, “requires storytelling that’s just as nuanced as scripted work. You’re shaping real moments into something cohesive and engaging.” Her work on these projects highlights her adaptability and deep understanding of human emotion.

One of the standout points in Kim’s career was producing Gaga: Five Foot Two. The project offered an intimate glimpse into Lady Gaga’s life, showcasing her vulnerabilities and strength. Kim recounts the challenges of crafting such an unfiltered narrative, saying, “The magic was in the authenticity. Gaga was raw and real, and we wanted viewers to feel like they were walking alongside her.” The minimal crew and close collaboration created an unparalleled connection between the subject and the audience.

Beyond her professional achievements, Kim’s insights into the industry’s evolution are enlightening. She speaks candidly about the systemic challenges women face in Hollywood, sharing how she navigated a landscape often dominated by male voices. Her reflections on the #MeToo movement underscore the importance of platforms like social media for amplifying marginalized voices. “It’s a double-edged sword,” Kim notes, “but it’s also a powerful tool for change.”

Kim’s current project, Violet’s New Life, delves into the futuristic concept of consciousness transfer. The short film and pilot explore what it means to live again in a synthetic body, blending technology and human emotion. As Kim puts it, “It’s not just about immortality—it’s about the psychology of starting over, carrying the weight of one life into another.”

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:09
Today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

My guest is a writer, producer and director. She has produced reality TV shows such as MTV made she's been produced on The X Factor. She has been a producer for Kendra on top, which is currently on its sixth season on Wii TV. And her current produced project stars a little known singer named Lady Gaga. You may have heard of her in the documentary Gaga five foot two, which is on Netflix right now, which follows Gaga around as she prepares for her Super Bowl Halftime Show, and just gives you a sneak peek of our life in general with guest Kim Ray.

Dave Bullis 2:28
You know, we actually met on Twitter, and I usually meet a lot of people through Twitter because you produced the new Netflix special Gaga five foot two. And, you know, we got to talking, and I looked up your IMDB, and I'm actually familiar with a lot of your work. Actually, it was actually funny enough, starting with West Bank story, I actually remember seeing that years ago, and I when I saw that was one of the things that you produced, I was like, Wow, what a small world.

Kim Ray 2:56
I co wrote it. Yeah, I wrote it with Ari, the director. We were in grad school together at the time at USC, and we had kind of become besties, and we started an organization at USC for the grad production students called the entertainment industry network, because when we both got there, we we started the same semester for the directing program at USC, the production program, And there was no, there wasn't a lot of interaction with the other programs, with the writing program, the producing program, or even with Hollywood. So we started this organization and kind of mixed everybody up and got everybody going, you know, working together on different projects, so that, you know, people from the producers, the Peter shark producing program would get with the writers, and they bring directors projects. And so it was really successful. And then when it came time for us to do our thesis films, I wrote mine, and obviously was directing it, and but I needed an assistant director. I really needed somebody to run the set. And I was like, you have to see my ad, you have no choice. And he's like, Well, help me write my thesis film. He's like, I got nothing. He's like, I just have an idea. It's called West Bank story. And maybe it's like a bank in the in the valley, you know, but it's, it's kind of still like, you know, West Side Story with an Israeli, but with an Israeli and a Palestinian. And we just kind of went from there. And I was like, All right, and we just, you know, developed and developed. And then one day, and I have never been to Israel, and his father, our dad is Israeli, so he had been and so I was like, Well, explain it to me, like, what is it like, you know, what is it, what do they have in common? You know, he's like, Well, they really just have the food in common. And you know for sure, not just but that's one of the things they have in common, is the food. And we started talking about, and I just remembered, like, all of the McDonald's and Burger King wars when I was a kid and like, Pepsi and Coke and all that stuff. I was like, Well, what if it's competing Fauci. Stands in the West Bank, and he was like, Well, that would never happen, because there's checkpoint, you know, they're, they're not like, you can't feel like, you just walk from one side to the other, you know. I said, Well, what if it was at a checkpoint? Like, he's like, No, that would never happen. I was like, Well, okay, but let's take some creative license here. Maybe it could happen. And we just both it was, ended up being funny. And at one point we had, like, Fatima, you know, have a backpack on, like, maybe she's a suicide bomb. Obviously, that wasn't funny, and that was we cut that. But, you know, we're just going through ideas of what could be funny and how it could be a comedy musical. And I had actually been in a band in college and written a lot of songs and a lot of poetry. And so when we finished the script, Ari was like, we have to find a composer, you know, we have to find somebody to write all the songs. And I was like, Well, why don't we take a stab? And he's like, I don't know anything about writing songs. I was like, I was in a band. Maybe I, you know, maybe I could do any writing music. Have you ever written any songs or poetry?

Dave Bullis 5:59
No, no, believe me, Kim, no, nobody wants to see me sing either.

Kim Ray 6:05
So okay, all right, well, it's, you know, it's, it's kind of embarrassing, right? Like when you write a song or a poem and you you can write it, that's not embarrassing. That's like, you know, you're putting your emotions down on paper, but as soon as you say it out loud or you sing it, it's kind of like there's a certain it's, you're being very vulnerable, you know, to whoever's listening, you're, it's a very you're in a very vulnerable moment, because you're sharing with them something that you felt emotionally or, you know, that you put on paper, and now it's coming out in this kind of, In this emotional way. And so I took a stab at writing one of the songs. In fact, I wrote the love the love song first the lyrics, and I sent it to Ari, like you might hate. This is going to be horrible. I just remember, like, waiting to hear back because I emailed it over, and we were really good friends. That wasn't like, I was embarrassed to him, but I still it was just like, you know, I'd been this emotional kind of love song, and it took him a while to get back to me, which was probably like, five hours, you know, but still, it felt like an eternity. And then he was like, Okay, I gave it to my mom. And Ari is very much like he was in a fraternity. In in some ways, he's kind of like a dude. And he was like, Okay, well, I gave it to my mom and my mom really liked your styles, really good. Let's just try to write the songs. And this is after we had gone to so many composers, and I kept telling them, because all the composers we met with, they they were good composers, but I just didn't think they'd be good lyricists, but they would write the right songs. I felt, as the writers, we really needed to write them and so, and so we did. And it was a really rewarding experience, making that and writing it, and, yeah, and and then, you know, seeing it come to fruition was it was a really great, really great experience. So, yeah, music has always been a big part of my life. So you know that is that film is kind of just an extension of that.

Dave Bullis 8:10
So when you were putting this all together, and you finally were able to make it, and everyone was able to view it, did they finally understand the idea behind the complete the competing Fauci stands?

Kim Ray 8:22
Yeah, they did. They did. It was fun casting it too, because, you know, on the Israeli side, we had more freedom because we could cast, you know, people who were supposed to be Russian, or, you know, like people from all over, you know, that go, who are Jewish, who go to Israel, to live there, you know? So, yeah, it was, it was actually, it was a lot of fun making it and casting it, and, yeah, and and seeing it, having people see it, it was scary at first, because, you know, you really hope that people aren't offended and that people get it and they understand that it's a peaceful, you know, it's a message of peace and hope, and we're all alike, and why do we have to have these wars? And why do we have to have so much hatred and and so, yeah, there was a little bit of fear at first, but then everybody kind of embraced it. And this day, like, anytime I meet a Palestinian, they've seen the movie. So ran, or a lot of Israeli, yeah, or an Israeli, they've seen the movie. So it was shown a lot over there, and Ari went over there a lot with it. And, yeah, it was a popular short film, especially in the Middle East, apparently.

Dave Bullis 9:30
And that's awesome, by the way, because I was actually going to ask you about the reception of like, how they actually responded to it. Because, you know, you know, nowadays, whenever somebody makes anything. I mean, good. And look, you just touched on, you know, there you did fear for a little, for even a split second. You know, how are people gonna respond to this? Is there gonna be some bad backlash? Is there even gonna be any backlash?

You know, as you sort of, as we because you that was like, 2004 2005 as we go forward to today. You know, I do you think things are more sensitive now in terms of, if you were trying, like, let's just say Kim, you were trying to make the West Bank story right now, do you think that you'd have a lot more backlash?

Kim Ray 10:22
Um, I don't know. I mean, there's still not peace in the Middle East, you know, you know, maybe, maybe not. I think, I think people are always looking for a positive message. I really believe that, you know. And I think everybody, everybody kind of does, I mean, one of the first, you know, even like internet stuff, it's like, you know, you want to keep your message inspirational. What people say about when you're trying to market yourself or whatever. I think, I think people who are, who have a positive message, are kind of beacons in in the world we're in right now, because we are so divided, and there's so much, you know, anger and frustration and, you know, starting with, you know, our president, it's, I don't know, I think it would be, I think it'd be received just as well today, actually,

Dave Bullis 11:23
Yeah, you know, it's funny because it's Halloween. We're recording this on Halloween. And I said to somebody today, they said, Oh, Dave, I didn't dress up. And I said, Well, you can be a millennial and just be offended at everything. But, you know, it was, it was a funny joke, you know, because, I mean, I'm a millennial too, which it's just, you know, it was just funny, though, and, but, but, you know, I just, you know, we look out in the country today, and even, you know, and it's amazing, Kim, how fast everything has sort of changed, not only in film, but in the, you know, in the in the world, you know, cell phones are so fast. And where I'm going with this is, you know, everyone sort of knows news as it happens, you know, you soon as something happens, you get a notification on Twitter or what have you, and it's, you know, we become almost inundated with this and, you know, and that's why, I think sometimes people get a little more sensitive about things, because it seems like that's all it's happening. If that's all you're looking for. Do you know what I mean?

Kim Ray 12:18
Yeah, no, I do. I actually, you know, I was a huge fan of Hillary Clinton. I'm, I followed her since I was in college, and, you know, read all of her speeches. And really, you know, I'm the same person. I go down the rabbit hole, you know, I do all the research. I, you know, I really want to know who she was years ago. And really followed the campaign really closely, and a friend of mine is a PhD in this. He's getting his PhD at UCLA for want to say it's called information systems, but I could be completely relining that. Basically, he studies the internet and and he's also a journalist, and for in Denmark. He lives here in Los Angeles, though, and you know, so I was really aware from him, and also from a project that I did with Chris McCarville. He's the director of the Gaga film he and I did, we were, we did, kind of like a pilot for a show that that was about internet culture and just various things about about the internet. And the pilot that we did was about Russian trolls and Russian troll farms and what in particular they had tried to start this emergency situation in a small town, Louisiana. And so we kind of followed that story. And then throughout the election, my friend was, you know, alerting me to all the Russian ads that were, you know, how Russians were meddling in the election, especially in Wisconsin and Michigan, and what was happening there. And so I got really addicted to the news, you know, I mean, if I hadn't already been it was really addicted to news, and just hyper inflamed by everything I read, you know, especially, you know, if it was coming from, you know, the Trump camp or whatever. And but once, once, once the election happened, I really, I just kind of stopped, and because what happened was this thing that had never happened before, and there have been studies done on this and things written about it. You can look it up. I started. I have, you know, I have a I have the apple aggregator for news on my phone, like everybody with an iPhone or whatever program they use, that aggregates the news from all my favorite sources. So, you know, I do New York Times, Wired Magazine, CNN, you know, you name it, and all of a sudden the word Trump started showing up like every single article, Trump, Trump, Trump. And I had never, you know, we're all addicted to the news, but I had. Never seen one name cover all of my news feed before and and again, it was a phenomena, right like again, this is something that's been studied. It he the amount of news coverage that he's gotten since pretty much right before the election and post the election goes beyond the pale. I mean, it supersedes any other figure who's ever been covered by the news, and it's been sustained. You know, obviously, in part, because of the egregious things that he said done, the lies that he's told, blah blah blah blah blah, on and on. It's all newsworthy. But I just kind of, you know, wrapped my head around that. Was like, I'm kind of peace outing the news as much as I can. And because I was so angry, I was angry on my social media feeds, I was angry, and I just something, just snapped at me, and I was just like, it's the world isn't going to change if I whether or not I read every single news article. You know what I mean? Like, it's not I'm, you know, I grew up in an era of newspapers where you read the newspaper pretty much. When I lived in New York especially, I just read it on Sunday. Get the New York Times on Sunday, and that was it. So it wasn't so hard for me to kind of turn it off or not. I don't think I needed it, but I think I definitely turned it down, way down, because it's just not life is too short. That's my lawn response to that.

Dave Bullis 16:36
I agree. You know, it's I stopped. You know, Facebook, to me was, was like, was my version of your apple aggregator on your iPhone. I would log on to Facebook, and I made a very stupid mistake. Kim, I would log on Facebook first thing in the morning when I woke up.

Kim Ray 16:54
Yeah, no, same, same thing, because you're laying in bed, right? And you're waking up, and the first thing you do is you go to your phone, yeah, no, I'm with you, uh huh. And

Dave Bullis 17:04
It's, it's all it was, was bad news on top of bad news on top of more, like, terrible news. And I go, why am I subjecting myself to this? Like, you know, you know, first off, I, you know, what could I do about North Korea? You know, what can I do about this or that or the other thing. And I started to realize, you know, the less I was on Facebook, the better. And Twitter, I can control a lot more. And Facebook, it's just like it was. So finally I just stopped it all together. And you know what, Kim my gradually, I got happier again. I stopped worry about this stuff. Because, I mean, at the end of the day, you're just gonna say, if it's happens, it happens, and there's nothing that that, you know, we could do about it, so you stop really worrying about it. I mean, I have a friend of mine who goes on Facebook, and he used to do a lot of movie stuff, and all of a sudden he just, he's like, obsessed now with, like, going on Facebook and like seeing all this news and posting all this and he's guilty to a posting fake news. And I'm like, you know, what is that going to do for you? At the end of the day, you posted a news article that is most likely not true. What is that going to do for you? You know, it just, I don't really see what the point of that is.

Kim Ray 18:13
Yeah, I mean, I think it's one thing to be intelligently informed and to check different sources. If something interests you or disturbs you, it's just another thing to like you say, you know, be pouring through Facebook every morning and then pouring through the news and spending an hour going through all this stuff for several hours a day. It's just it's too much. On the flip side, I have to say, the good thing about the internet and this dissemination of information has been, you know, all of the sexual harassment stories coming out over the last like year, especially, you know, the most recent Weinstein story, because these women had no place to go before. They couldn't go to human resources, they couldn't go to their boss, they couldn't go anywhere. And now they can go to the internet. And even if it's just like, hey, this happened to me, and then another person's like, hey, this happened to me too. Even if it's just two people, it's powerful. But when it becomes 30, 40, 50, 60, people, women, who are like, hey, this happened to me, and it all. And then you start seeing how the stories are eerily similar, that's when I think that's when social media and the dissemination of data become important, and in the entertainment industry, it's also I came out of USC in 2005 and I had an agent at Uta, an agent, a manager and a lawyer, and I was doing really well in the beginning of my career, but and I write big budget sci fi action primarily. That's what I write, and that's what I'm interested in

And I had all these various projects, you know, semi development, or almost sold, or whatever, but I just, I wasn't stealing the deal. And it was really frustrating, because I would walk in, you know, to these producers offices, and I just, and they were all men. I never, I think once or twice I ever met with a woman, but, you know, all these executives and producers, and it was never, I was never like feeling the deal. And I really, you know, I like to think of myself as good in a room. I like to think of myself, self as personable. I like to think of myself as a good writer, as a good, you know, filmmaker in general. But I just it wasn't happening. And I got, you know, is getting really down on it, and that's kind of actually, you know, the film industry obviously, was changing, right? This is before Netflix was doing their own content, and studios were only putting out like eight movies a year, like the film industry was was changing, that's undeniable. But a few years ago, data started coming out and statistics started coming out for those years in terms of how many women writers were getting hired to write feature films. How many women writers were selling spec scripts? How many women writers were getting hired for writing rooms? How many scripts were selling that had female protagonists? And the numbers didn't lie. The numbers, excuse me, the numbers reflected my personal experience, which was that the doors, the door to entry, was shut, and very few women were getting through. And it actually, in some ways it was profoundly depressing, but in other ways it was profoundly encouraging, because I stopped blaming myself, you know, I stopped thinking, Oh, it's just because you weren't talented enough, or you weren't, you know, enough of a salesperson to sell your idea, or, you know, You couldn't communicate. You know, what your pitch was, or your concept, or this or that it was, it was because there was a bias, whether it was conscious, unconscious, whatever it was, there was a bias against women, and there still is, you know, I think the stories of the Harvey Weinstein, whatever, whatever, that's the most horrific example, right? But then you look at all the microaggressions in the microaggressions exist in the data that show how many female directors, and I was just going up for a lot of writing stuff. Forget directing me. My degree from USC, my MFA is in direct directing. My undergrad from University of Michigan is in film, and I feel like I didn't even, I was even trying that hard to direct. I mean, I actually ended up getting a job. I was working as a commercial director for production company, advertising company, for three years, which was great, while going out and trying to sell, you know, bigger projects. But it's, you know, I think, you know, there's, I guess my point is, there's good and bad in in the dissemination of news and social media and all that stuff. And it's like, we, you know, it keeps us aware, but it can also be, like, you say, debilitating. So it has, it definitely has an upside, and then it also has a downside, you know, like I know, looking at all the hashtag me too, over the last few weeks has been completely depressing, but also 100% you know, it needed to be seen. You know what I mean?

Dave Bullis 23:59
Yeah, and I do know. Do you know what you mean, Kim, you know, I think also you're right. That is a good, you know, a benefit of social media is that you can, you can not only share this news out like again. Harvey Weinstein, how that whole thing broke. And basically, if it wasn't for social media being as strong as it was, you know, would we be able to get it out there. Would he even be facing charges? You know, if it wasn't as strong first lady wasn't as strong as it was. You know, I actually had Cassian it was, I'm sure I just butchered his last name again on the podcast. I don't know if you know Cassian, but Cassian is a producer Dallas Buyers Club, the new Sundance hits mud, a mud bound, excuse me. And he actually, our whole episode, we talked a lot about this, about he looked at all the numbers of, like, you know, direct film projects and, you know, directed and written by women, and the number was, like 7% I think he said, and yeah, he actually, actually that, that that's like, his whole thing now is getting making more opportunities for, i. For women, because he wants to actually improve those numbers. And that's all so by the way, if you, if you're interested, I'm just gonna, sorry not to segue, but I was just gonna say it. Was gonna say that the whole episode that actually just aired right now on Halloween, and that's all it is, is it's all we talk a lot about that he's actually launched. He actually helped launch. Excuse the horizon Award, which sends to film, two filmmakers to women, filmmakers to Sundance. I mean, it's just, you know, the this guy, yeah. I mean, seriously, for

Kim Ray 25:30
Good for him, man, good for him. Because, you know what? At the end of the day, it's like all these women are out there trying to, like, you know, trying to say, Oh, we were to hire more women. But at the end of the day, men are still in charge. So they're the ones who have to do what he's doing. You know, not that they're 100% still in charge. It's changing. But if you're going to really change a power dynamic, obviously those in power have to, you know, put forth some kind of effort. And people rare, you know, I think people really want to do that, right? You really want to give away the key to the kingdom, but good on him. And he's like, you know, doing that, that's awesome.

Dave Bullis 26:06
Yeah, great guy, by the way. And I yeah, by the way, I'll give you guys a Twitter intro. I think you're really like, no serious Twitter is, I'm telling you, Kim, Twitter is one of the best networking tools around, and it's free, you know, I mean, look, we've been over twice.

Kim Ray 26:22
Yeah, no, that's a really good point.

Dave Bullis 26:26
So, you know, just to continue with your with your career, Kim, I see you did the X Factor, by the way, which I know you, you music has always been a huge part of your life. So I see you did the X Factor in 2012 and I wanted to ask, you know, how did you, you know, get into to producing the X Factor?

Kim Ray 26:43
Um, I had worked with one of the show runners for the X Factor on another project, and she got on X Factor, and she's like, we need, we need people like you, who can, who can write, you know, who can do story. Because initially they were going to, they were trying to kind of revamp the show a little bit so that the there would be the packages on the people who were competing and who were auditioning would be a little more beefed up. And because, honestly, in so many ways, like that's, that's the heart of the show, right? Are these people who have the dream of being a musician, and they're just and you see, you look into their lives and you see, like, how hard they've been trying to do this and for how long. And a lot of them, you know, started as children, and have, you know, gone to Nashville or LA or, you know, New York, and, you know, really sung those little arts out, you know, really tried three musicians. So being on the show was such a huge deal for them. So they brought me on to to put together the packages on on those people primarily. I mean, I did other things, but with the talent, with Britney Spears and whatever. But that was my main thing. And, yeah, it was. It was really heartwarming, actually. And the show is, the show was a machine. I mean, it was, I don't even know how many editors were working on that show. I want to say 20. It was a big show. It was a really big show. So, yeah, it was, it was an interesting experience.

Dave Bullis 26:43
Yeah, I was gonna say there must be, like, a million people working on that show. It came out like a bullet too, because, you know, all of a sudden it was, like every, every time I turn around, I saw something about the X Factor. I saw, you know, like a commercial for it, a billboard for it. You know, I saw ads on Facebook. I mean, that show had so much going behind it, just in marketing. You know what I mean, like, that's why I'm always like the shows like that. And it's an indicator too, because something has that much money in it has to be, you know what, the what the network wanted. You know what I mean, it has to be something that they view, they feel, is a is a viable product. So, I mean, Jae, so is producing for like live TV, like DAX. I know you also, after that, you've done a couple other of TV series, like Kendra on top and good food America. So when you're producing like live TV, you know, it was that any adjustment or any for you of any kind, because, you know, it's there really is no take backs or edits, so to speak.

Kim Ray 29:21
Yeah. I mean, on for the live portion of X factor. So there was a live portion, and there was all the stuff that we did beforehand. And so the live portion, there's like a 32nd or minute delay. So everybody, you know, everybody again, being a fine, you know, finally, honed machine. Everybody has all of their kind of all of their their roles that they play. And the show wasn't always live, because sometimes I'm trying to think, yeah, it wasn't all, oh, I'm thinking of the auditions.

Because I'm just trying to think if we had to cut together at one point, we literally cut together for the audition part, which was, you know, the kind of like the not live part reaction shots for Britney Spears and Simon and I'm blanking on her name, Paula, that we would reuse, that we would reuse over again, because we didn't have enough reactions that were good, you know, so we'd end up reusing their reactions, which is really funny, but for the live shows, yeah, there was a slight delay. It was a CBS Studios, and it was very, you know, it was very choreographed, like everybody knew, you know exactly what, what they were doing. And, you know, there were, there were, honestly, there were some surprises, but kind of very few surprises.

Dave Bullis 30:56
So, so basically, when it, when you go through, like, yeah, working inside of the X factor when you got out, when you, I'm sorry, make it seem like you're in jail. Sorry, let me rephrase that question, when you got in jail.

Kim Ray 31:10
No, really. I mean, you know, like I said, reality and dog TV was never my focus. It just, it just kind of happened because it was, I was having a really hard time get, getting into scripted, getting getting directing, you know, getting directing work and getting hired as a writer. So it was, and it came really easy, you know, it was, you know, it was just, it was just very easy for me to do. It was like riding a bike. It was not difficult. But go ahead,

Dave Bullis 31:40
Before I was, I was, you know, making it seem like you were in jail. So if you're, you know, you were, you got done producing the X Factor, and you went into producing Kendra on top, and, you know, also good food America and sex on so when you were producing, these are all episodics, did you sort of see Kim like how things were sort of progressing in terms of, you know, all the top talented people were moving, you know, out of, out of the film industry, and now they, as they say, all the, all the top talented people are working in the TV industry.

Kim Ray 32:14
Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, I, I know people. I have a friend who went to Princeton undergrad and went to USC grad for screenwriting, and is now one of the executive producers on Vanderpump Rules, like you know, but he's one of the reasons I have no doubt that the show is successful, because he's a brilliant, talented person, you know, and that even though these shows are not, you know, House of Cards, they're still, they require storytelling, and they require a lot of, you know, filmic kind of films, you know, a lot of skills. And that really did happen in like around 2000 just say, like, you know, once the recession hit, in like 2008 2009 film opportunities really started drying up, and my manager sat me down. He's like, you have to write television. Now, I was like, What are you talking about? Like, I just finished film school, like, Why do I don't want to write television? And, you know, at the time, like, I mean, sopranos, I think had just ended the wire had been on, but there wasn't a lot of, you know, great. There wasn't a ton of everything had to be at that at that point, standalone, you know, people didn't want the sopranos per se, or they didn't want the lawyer, they didn't want something that told a story over a season. And like anything else, TV was hard to get into. There wasn't as much of it as there is now. Blah, blah, blah. So yeah, reality came in, and everybody just kind of went that way, because it was easier to get jobs on reality, and if you knew how to write a script or had any kind of production experience, it was, it was easy. So, yeah, a lot of a lot of talent went to reality and Doc stuff. And Kendra on top was actually really funny, because I hate Hugh Hefner hate and I don't I'm the you know, I'm a feminist to believe he putting women in Bunyi ears and little outfits and making them look really fuckable was not an advancement for women and but I got a call, she sort of produced on the show called Kendra on top. And I had no idea who Kendra Wilkinson was. I had never watched The Girls Next Door. Obviously, I hate Hugh Hefner, so, you know, I was like, I don't really think I'm a good fit for that. And the person was like, No, really, you should go. In and just, just check it out. You know, she's actually, you know, her story, it's a light show, it's kind of a comedy. And, you know, she's, she's, you know, she's married, has a kid, and it's not that kind of show, and she's kind of, you know, a tough chick. So it's like, okay, so I went in and got the job and had never really story produced per se, and which basically, do you know what story producing is? Yeah, yeah. So it's just basically, you're taking the footage that was shot and cutting it into what is essentially, kind of like the rough cut that you that's that's then going to be given to the editor. So I did that. It was the first, I was given the first episode of the first season of the show. It was a new show that she was doing for WE tv. Previously, she had been on ETV, so the network was really, you know, kind of putting it through its paces, as they do when it's, you know, a pilot when it's, you know, it's his first show of a season, and I got kind of close with the very eccentric executive producer of the show. And, and by close, I just mean he would scream at me a little less than he screams, because he was a screamer. And, and we got along, you know, I was able to get along with him for whatever reason. And, but the guy who was my boss, supervising story producer, who works that position, works really closely with the field in crafting the stories and making sure that you know the stories are are you know that everything that's in the story is shot and that, you know, episodes track from episode to episode, and across the entire season, there are character arcs, or story arcs all that stuff. That guy within like, two or three weeks, really great guy named Kevin, I'm still friends with, couldn't take, couldn't take the environment at that production company anymore and quit. Just walk like, just no notice. It's just like, I can't do this anymore. And so they kept me for whatever reason. Again, I never even story produced. And they were like, will you be the supervising story producer on the on the show? And I was like, Sure, yeah, of course, you know. And I called Kevin, I'm like, Okay, what am I supposed to do as a supervising story producer? And he basically told me. I was like, okay, all right. And it was, it was easy and it was fun. I don't watch reality TV. I The only episodes of Kendra on top I've ever seen are the ones that we made and but it was fun to make it. You know it was, it was kind of fun television to make it. And I ended up doing it for two seasons because I was at the time, writing this kind of in depth, intense sci fi script, feature script. And it was great. It was a great job to have I was writing. So that's Kendra on top.

Dave Bullis 37:58
So Kim, I have to ask, when you touched on somebody who was a real big screamer, what? How do you handle situations like that? You know, everyone has sort of a different idea of how to handle that. Where somebody who maybe is your boss or maybe someone who is your co worker, they're just very hard to handle on a film set. How were you able to handle it? Handle it so well,

Kim Ray 38:22
Um, I just it was a combination of just waiting it out and or getting up and leaving. At one point I did in that first season, I just got up and left, and I was just like, I'm done. And his kind of second guy in charge, or whatever, like, called me repeatedly on the way home. Please don't quit. Please don't quit. He's so sorry. Please don't leave. And I was just like, I can't I just I can't. You know that's it's completely inappropriate. The yelling, and I don't know if he had said something personal or I don't remember what it was, but, and then the guy himself called and apologized, and I was like, okay, whatever. I guess, I guess I'll go back. And then, you know, of course, like all serial whatever, whatever, he was nice after that. I think, you know, entertainment business is a tough business. And I think any business, whether you know, there was a good McSweeney's thing recently saying, you know, if women, you know, are you familiar with McSweeney's? Yeah, yeah. So everything's all tongue in cheek. And it was like, kind of, you know, if women can't handle the entertainment business, they should get out, you know. And it is kind of funny, if they can't handle, you know, having meetings in a hotel room, you know, that, you know, instead of, you know, at a table, then you know, they're too sensitive and they should get out.

And then it was like, you know, maybe they should go into television, you know, like, talk about, like, Bill O'Reilly and, you know, and maybe they can't handle television, maybe they should go into tech, you know. And then it goes into tech, where the guy next to you is, like, you know, writing an essay on why women are inferior. And, you know, women are getting hit on when they're pitching their app ideas. As always, you don't want to do tech. You should go to politics. You know, where the President of the United States is, you know, saying, grab them by their pussy. So it was just, it was really hilarious, and it kind of, it kind of detailed, like, I think women have it tough, obviously, in every industry, and there's, I don't know, maybe there's more of a put up with it miss that women have. I don't know, but yeah, I mean, typically, if somebody, this particular person, I felt was, at the end of the day, harmless and just kind of crazy and it, it wasn't it. I was never sexually harassed or anything like that. It wasn't that kind of thing at all. I think if I'd ever felt Actually, I did work at Miramax back in the day when I first started, and did walk away with a check, because the environment was a sexist environment. And at the time I just I went into the guy was working for who, it's funny, this guy has now come out and said, Oh, I was so crazy that Harvey wanted to he was acting this way. I walked his office and said, You know, it's obvious I'm not the kind of assistant that you want. Maybe you should just, you know, write me a check and I'll leave. And he handed me a check request. I walked it down to accounts payable, and I left that company. It was a horrible company, and everybody knew it. So, yeah, no, I think, I think it depends on the situation. I think there are certain types of situations I would never stand for. You know, I would never stand first to be sexually harassed in an environment, but screamers and, you know, emotional people who are creative to lose their their shit from time to time. That kind of just comes with the territory. With creative people, they're not always the most professional business types that you're ever going to deal with. You know, same with talent, you know, you never, I mean, I don't know creative types are just more emotional and you there's a part of it that you just kind of got to accept that and roll with it.

Dave Bullis 42:39
Yeah, I concur there's the worst person I've ever had to work with was a director of cinematography who, well, it's actually toss up to the worst person I work with. But mine was a director of cinematography who thought that he was God's gift to everybody. And oh yeah, that guy. Yeah, that guy. You work with him too, all right, but y'all know that guy, yeah, we're exactly right. Everyone's got a story about that guy, but he would happen was he actually was, was, like, condescending to everybody. So finally, I call him over, and he and I started, you know, I said to him, did Is there something wrong? Is there Did somebody say something to you, is there something that happened? Let's just talk this out. And he basically took that as he I wanted to fight him, and he tried to, and I was like, and I said, Are you serious right now? And finally, this, it was, we were just about the day was just about over anyway, and we just broke early that day, and I said, this guy is never coming back. It's got it. We got to make a decision. I went to the producers, and I said, you have to make a decision. Either he goes or I go, like, this is absolutely terrible. And they chose me, and they were like, Yeah, we don't like him either, because apparently he mouthed off to them too. And I'm like, Oh, good. We all hate them. Weird agreements, all right,

Kim Ray 43:58
Yeah, let's get him out of here. Yeah. So it didn't come to 50 cups. You didn't have to, like, No, you didn't have to fight him.

Dave Bullis 44:04
No, not have to fight him. Thank God, because we were a public place too. So it would have gone well for anybody. It would have been, it wasn't like on, like, a closed set. It was like we were in the middle of the open, so in a public place. So we would have gotten, and we have permission to shoot and everything like that. It's just that, you know, two guys fighting in the middle of Philadelphia doesn't really bode well, but

Kim Ray 44:27
Right, right! Yeah, no, that's the other thing, right? Is that, in addition to emotions and feelings, you have egos, right? That you know that some people, their egos get out of whack. And whether it's because they're they have a ton of self doubt, you know, buried underneath, or because they think they're too good for the situation or the film or the project, or, you know, whatever, which, again, if they think that, it's probably just all boiled down to self doubt. But you. Yeah, it's, it's, this is tough. It's a tough business. And a lot of times, you know, especially, you know, in film and TV, and I need to tell you, you know, people are calling in favors, or there's, I don't know there's, there's always a million different things going on with every single person that's on set. And you either become like a family in a few weeks, a happy family, or you become a really dysfunctional, angry family, you know, depending on the crew.

Dave Bullis 45:30
Usually, yeah, usually for me, it's the latter. We become like this functional family. You love to hate them and hate to love them. So it's

Kim Ray 45:38
Right, yeah, exactly, exactly. But boy, do you miss him and you see him on Facebook, you're like, Oh my God, look what he just says. Did I love that guy? You know, yeah. Two years later, yeah,

Dave Bullis 45:49
Yeah, right. Because you end up being, ends up being a small world. And, you know, as you sort of go from project to project and and you sort of meet all these familiar faces. But you know, Kim, I wanted to ask, and this is the, you know, we actually met, because I saw, you know, this project being tweeted out. And I wanted to ask how you got involved with Gaga, five foot two Lady Gaga, obviously, I'm gonna, I mean, I think everyone listening knows who she is, unless you've been under a rock for the past 10 years. Yeah, I think everybody knows who Lady Gaga is. So I wanted to ask Kim, you know, how did you get involved with with the project?

Kim Ray 46:25
So Chris McCarville, the director, and I had worked together on sex on, so we met on the HBO show, sex on, which is a show about how sex and relationships exist online and with technology. So it was all about, like, you know, sex relationships, love and technology. And he and I are both super into music and technology and the internet and sci fi, and we were kind of a love fest when we first met. And so after sex on, we, we did the that pilot that I was telling you about, but the Russian trolls, and, you know, that had to do with the Internet of Things, kind of, and then we did another project that was also kind of like a development project. And then he, he had a meeting with Live Nation, and they said they might have this lady gaga documentary, that there was potential for him to direct it. And he got, he got really exciting because, oh, there might, you know, this might happen. I was like, Okay, well, you know, like, he's like, I really want you to produce it. I'm like, All right, great. Well, let me know if it happened. Because it just didn't seem, it just seemed like kind of a long shot, you know? And so then I think it was almost like a month later, a month went by, and he went, he met with Gaga producer, Bobby Campbell, and he and Bobby really hit it off. And he called me, and he's, like, I met with her manager. I really liked him. He's super cool. I think it's really gonna happen. And like, okay, great. He's like, okay, great. Well, you know, because, you know, I mean, there's always something right, like, there's always two or three or four projects that are maybe going to happen, or could happen, or, you know, and then they'll all go away, and then something else will come up. But you just never know. And I was so I wasn't really super excited about I didn't I thought it sounded cool, and, you know, obviously I would have been thrilled, but I just didn't know. And then another few weeks went by, I feel like, and he called me, and he's like, Okay, I got a call to go and film her house tomorrow. I'm like, No way. And he's like, yeah. He's like, it's happening. It's happening. And I was like, okay, so we got him, we he had a camera, and I think we just used a lens that he already had, because I don't think we even had a plan in place, yet we ended up shooting on can see 300 using Zeiss Super Speed lenses, fixed lenses, which was, which was an immense challenge, and in some ways stupid of us, but also brilliant, because it allowed us to, you always had to be close to her to film her within, like, A few feet. And I think you feel that in the film, which is what we wanted, we really wanted it to feel like a because he could. So he goes and shoots, is one day, and he comes back, and we sit down, we watch all the footage, and we're going to cut together this little kind of teaser to give to Live Nation. And we're watching it, and it's like he really got a sense, and you really get a sense of the food she shot the first day, a lot of which ended up in the film, of what, of what it was going to be like filming her, that it was going to be this really rare close up view of her

And then it was gonna be like this door would open and we'd go in, or just he would go in, or whatever, and then film, and then the door shuts, you know, and then, so we knew that, and that kind of contributed to the lenses and the camera that we chose and the way we chose to film it. We couldn't have a big crew, you know, you're not going to go into her house or get on her plane or go into her studio when she's recording with five people. She's never going to happen. So we needed to do something that was compact, that would allow for, you know, just a DP, a very discreet sound person who knew how to, you know, who could get out of the way, and often not like her, and and then a camera set up that, you know, Chris could use if he needed to. I shot for a minute in one of the locations. I think I shot the last step of the film where she's talking about shart, where she says shart in the credit like I was shooting that in Nashville. But, yeah, so, so he, so he did that. We put together thing for Live Nation, and they were like, you know, and then the next call I got was Chris on the phone with one of the VPS at five nation saying, Okay, we need a budget and a schedule. And this is like, oh, okay, I guess this is happening. I guess, I guess we're making this movie. So literally, we just immediately were in production, like it just like it was, like it was happening, right then, right, it was going. And we knew we were going to get a call soon to shoot again. And we sat down with her manager. We sat down with Bobby, and he kind of gave me a rundown of all of the things that she had coming up over the summer. This is like in June of last year of 2016 and he just kind of gave us, you know, this rundown like, these are all the things she has coming up. Let us know which ones would be interesting for you guys to film. What you know, whatever you think, these are the things that we think would be good. These are the days she's filming in Malibu. These are the days she's filming in New York, or not filming, I'm sorry, these are the days she's making the record. This is the day she's recording in New York. These are days she's recording in LA. And you know, if you want to do those that you know, let us know, you know what you know who's coming in, because Florence Welsh came in. And you know, there were days that obviously Mark Bronson was going to be there at blood pop, and other people that she was collaborating with that we wanted to make sure we got and so, yeah, we literally just, it's like the door opened and we were in and we were making the film, and we started, we didn't know, we didn't know that she was up for the Super Bowl. Like we didn't even know that. And I think within two months, we knew that she was up for it. There's, you know, I think after she does the DNC performance, she's in the car. I think this is still in the movie. No, I can't remember it now, but, but Bobby says to her, you know, I think we got it right, you know. Or I think we're going to get or she he says, It looks like we might get it. She's like, I think we're going to get it. And it was kind of news to us that she was even up for it. Once we knew she was up for it, we were just like, she's going to get it. Of course, she's going to get it. And we wanted her to get it, because we were like, This is the end of the movie. You know, we're watching because we just felt it. Immediately. It was like, this is the end of the movie, because she hadn't made an album three years she was making a new album. It was a huge departure from a lot of her dance music that, you know, she had done prior. And she was also, you know, she was doing this whole new look where she was wearing jeans and T shirts and instead of these crazy costumes, and, you know, these beautiful costumes, I should say, and masks and whatever else, it was very stripped down. And it was, it was completely new. So to see her do that through the course of the film, and then to be able to, you know, and also to kind of see her in this really stripped down, raw, real way that we were seeing her, and then to have the end of the because, and there were no, you know, she wasn't on tour. We filmed her a million times, you know, doing shows or performances. But they were all, they were all pretty small. She did a dive bar tour. She did the DNC, she did Tony Bennett Sunday at birthday. She did PR stuff, she performed in Tokyo, but nothing like, you know, one of her concerts, or, you know, or in a stadium, or like the Super Bowl. So it, you know, it was just such a it was just such a no brainer. We knew she was at fourth ago. This is the end, and we can see, so that we see this person, this, you know. And I'm five nine. So to me, she always is, like, so small. We were in the edit. I was like, explaining to the editor, who hadn't met her yet, but of course, had spent 1000s of hours with her, you know, in his mind, you know, in reality, you know, watching her on on screen. And I was like, it's so amazing, because she's like, this little person. I mean again, to me, because I've always felt as a woman, I've always felt big because I'm, I'm almost five, nine and, and then I just, I kind of started saying, he pops, you know, I'm facilit wand and, and that ends up being a possible title. Chris was like, oh, maybe that's a title. Because we were, we had, we had a million titles, and we could not naming anything is the worst. So that ended up going on the on the title list and but yeah, so it was, it was a real windfall for her to do the Super Bowl, because then we could see this stripped down, small person do this thing that was larger than life, and see how she did it. You know, for us, anybody can go on YouTube and watch her Super Bowl performance from beginning to end. What we wanted to see was the viewpoint of what it's like backstage, what it's like when she's, you know, rehearsing in her sweatpants, you know, when her hip hurts in that back room. And that back room really was where everybody hung out and stayed it's not a beautiful place, you know, it's like, but that's the reality is of what, what it's like behind the scenes. And for us, it was, you know, all of it was kind of fascinating. It was really, it was really fascinating to be, to be in that world for the time that we were in it.

Dave Bullis 56:39
So what was your most memorable experience making the making this documentary?

Kim Ray 56:50
There were so many, I mean, the most, the thing that one of the things that really stuck with me was everywhere we went with her, we, you know, you'd go in an SUV. You know, there'd be like, several black SUVs or vehicles, and you'd enter through the security entrance and go up a back elevator. You enter, you enter spaces the most ugly way. You know what I mean, like, you kind of enter every space you're like, the same way a messenger might enter that space, you know, or something like that, just the most you know. You're not going typically, through the palatial, you know, front entrances of any of anywhere. You're always just going through the bottom to get her up to a back room that's like a green room, fitting room in it, and she's in, you know, a makeup hair room with all of her, you know, closest people who are helping. And then there's, you know, another room that's all the production people and the musician related people. And, you know, I mean, there's, there's several rooms of people, wherever she goes, whenever she performs, it for anything, or does an appearance. And the interesting thing, so that was interesting. And then we would go, we would go in, you know, that way, and then we go and set up our cameras, you know, and sound or whatever, and then go back down to the street to film often. And the barricades would be up, and all these people would be out there, like waiting for her, and we'd be filming from behind the barricades. And it was a really surreal experience, because you just see how much these people revere her. And you know, at one point, she did a show in LA and I was interviewing people, because we thought what might be interesting for the film, because your album had just come out, to talk to people about her and her music and what, you know, why they were such fans. And afterwards, I walked into the venue, and just like, start crying. So it's like, oh my god, you know, like people, it's not just, you know, hero worship or whatever. It's like people identify with her because of her message of, if you don't fit in, if you're an outsider, that's cool, you know, that's a great thing to be, you know, especially from being born this way and all that. So that was, that was a huge that was kind of, that was super memorable. It's also memorable when she, we were in Tokyo and we were, she was getting, she was practicing for this performance on this show, and I was filming, I think I was filming Chris, filming her, so I think I was just filming with an iPhone, so filming him, filming her, and she walked over to me, she's like, I'm really sorry, but just a close set. We just really need to focus on this so and like she was kicking me out. Like I looked at her, I go, it's me, it's Kim for the doc. And she's like, Oh my god, I'm so sorry. She's like, you're like me, you're like a chameleon.

I never she's like, you always have your hair different. I never know. She's like, it always takes me a minute to know it's you. And she was like, so clean, like, hugged me and was like, really sorry. But it was like, if we've been filming her for like, two months at that point, I was like, Really, you're kicking me out. Like, obviously, I got to stay. But yeah, so that was funny. We really, I mean that just also just goes to speak to we really tried to be slides on the wall, like we were. It's 100% different than making reality TV. When you're making reality TV, it's like, okay, Kendra, this is the scene. So you're going to come in and you're going to be mad at this person for what they said or what you thought they said, and you guys are gonna have an argument. Okay? Everybody ready? Okay, action, you know, I mean, and then they improvised it out however they're gonna do and but making a doc, especially about Lady Gaga, who is actually doing things in the moment, and you know, whether she's rehearsing for the Super Bowl, or for a program she's about to be on in Tokyo, or making a record she is busy, and so you're not, you're the last thing you're trying to do is to get in her way, you know. So, yeah,

Dave Bullis 1:01:15
Yeah. I mean, because I imagine, you know, she the way you're where you're describing it, Kim, she had a small army and then to make a film as a small army. So it's so now they make up a giant Yeah. So yeah,

Kim Ray 1:01:27
The army was often just Chris and I. Our army was typically Chris and myself and a sound person and a DP. That was typically we didn't even have, we often didn't even have a PA. In fact, we didn't even have a data transfer person. I would, at the end of the shoot day, do all the data transfer from the cards to drives in my hotel room. I did. I did all that because A, I didn't trust anybody with the footage. And B, there was just, was no, there was just no point in high, you know, and break. We couldn't really bring anybody else on at one point in New York. We had a PA for a little while to drive us places or to go grab stuff if we needed it. But we didn't really, you know, or we'd have, we had a production coordinator in LA that we'd have in the in our office. We had two production coordinators here in LA that we would have go do stuff or whatever. But typically, we were filming it was, it was super minimal.

Dave Bullis 1:02:29
Yeah, I was gonna say, I imagine it was probably like, it's guerla filmmaking. You know you're getting your hands dirty. You know you're, you're one minute, you're producer, next minute, you know you're transferring footage. It's all for the love of the game, right Kim?

Kim Ray 1:02:42
Yes, exactly it is. And you know, if you love it, if that's what you love, then you don't care, because you love it, you know. And I I really love filmmaking, and I love storytelling. And you know what's not to love about, you know, running around with a camera after Lady Gaga. I mean, you know, there's no, you're not going to complain about that. So, yeah, it was, it was great. It was fun.

Dave Bullis 1:03:08
And were you surprised when Netflix picked this up?

Kim Ray 1:03:12
No, not really, because, you know, the film was financed by Live Nation, and there were multiple people who were interested. And so, I mean, I even have friends who who buy films for studios, and they were interested. So we kind of, we just didn't know who the buyer was going to be. That was up, and that was, that was up to Live Nation. So they, they controlled the movie.

Dave Bullis 1:03:38
And the the film is on Netflix right now, correct?

Kim Ray 1:03:42
Yes, it is. You can stream it from the comfort of your own home. You don't have to leave the house. You can go, yeah, you can watch it anytime, anywhere.

Dave Bullis 1:03:51
And I will also link to that in the show notes, along with the trailer and all the other good stuff that you know. Kim and I have discussed in this in this whole conversation, Kim, I just have one more question before we close out. You know, what are you working on next?

Kim Ray 1:04:07
So right now, as we speak, I'm waiting to hear from my an editor whose name is Darren Navarro. He's a great editor who's done, I love dick and ballers, and those two shows together are not right. And also, yeah, I'm sorry, yeah, pardon my French, no, but he entered this he edited the film the end of the tour with Jesse Eisenberg as well, and he just a great editor. So he's overseeing the edit on a short film I just shot, called I directed, I wrote and directed, called violets, new life. And it's a short, but it's also kind of a, it's a it's a pilot presentation, it's a show presentation. It's about the short is about violet, who takes place maybe five or 10 years in the future. Who just had her mind downloaded into a 35 year old synthetic version of herself. She had a terminal illness at 72 and decided to go ahead and have her mind downloaded into a synthetic body. And so she is picked up by her adopted daughter, Joyce, and they go to her funeral. And that's the short film. So the show is basically, the show is called Violet's new life, and it's about violet acclimating to to life as a 35 year old. And, you know, I mean to be 72 and a 35 year old body is pretty crazy. So it's, you know, again, I'm super interested in technology, and I don't want to die. I don't want to die, and I don't really even if there is an afterlife, which, let's hope, you know, let's hope there's something else I'm not conscious of it now I don't know what that is, and that kind of pisses me off. And it pissed me off that my life is so short, so, but then, you know, when you think, okay, so great. What if, you know, you take all of your life's experiences, you live to your 72 and you get to be 35 again. What's that like? You know? What? How do you acclimate to life? You know, knowing everything you know, and being able to do that. So, yeah, so that's the show is like a took a 30 minute dramedy along the lines of transparent or insecure, or, I love dick or glow. So, so, yeah, so I'm, I've written the first two episodes and kind of outline the first few seasons, and we'll be taking that out in the next five month or two and submitting it to Festival, the short, the short film, to festivals. And that's why I'm working.

Dave Bullis 1:06:52
Well, I was gonna say, because I know, again, as we're talking about TV, that's where it's at right now. And, you know, I even when I discuss things, you know, I don't have an Agent Manager, but as soon as I just start discussing things with a myriad of people, they always say, Well, do you have, like, a TV pilot or something, or anything TV episodic related? And I'm always like, well, I, you know, I'm kind of slow, Kim, but I started to notice a pattern. And I'm like, Okay, I see it. So by the I mean, and I even shot a TV pilot myself a couple years ago, and I actually put it up on YouTube right now. So it's, yeah, it was actually pretty cool, because where I shot right after me, we shot at a studio right down the street from my house, and here in Philadelphia, and right after us, Emma Shalon came in to shoot After Earth with Will Smith. So Oh, wow, that's cool. Yeah, they were like, Guys, you have to leave soon because, well, M Night and sham line and Will Smith are coming in the day after you guys break and like, All right, we'll have everything cleaned up so, but, yeah, I have it up on YouTube right now. It's all free. It's pretty cool. But, but, yeah, I mean that, see that that's one of the things I hope people take away is, you know, you don't want to be in a room and they in, somebody ask, What else you got? And you're like, Well, I don't have any episodic stuff, because I now realize that's the way in right now, is there is to make sure you have episodic things. But So Kim, I want to say it's been a blast talking to you. Where can people find you out online?

Kim Ray 1:08:18
Um, you know, on Twitter. I'm on Instagram. I am Kim Ray on Instagram. Kim Ray on Twitter. Pretty much I don't have a website. I've been toying with the idea of a website, but I'm kind of like, you know, what am I going to do? Put I don't put clips from my movies or pages from my scripts on a website. I don't know. I'm not sold on having a website right now. But what do you think?

Dave Bullis 1:08:40
Well, I think really depends on what your strategy is, because I think if you're gonna, if you're gonna mainly be, you know, talking to other people and and sharing, like trailers and stuff like that, you know, I again, I'm big on Twitter. I and I think it's wherever you feel the most comfortable that that's usually my advice, because, you know, any any tool is only as good as the person that wields it. So yeah, that's my sage advice, Kim. I sound very sad, but

Kim Ray 1:09:08
Well, thank you. Thank you very much.

Dave Bullis 1:09:11
Everybody I will link to everything Kim and I talked about in the show in the show notes at my website davebullis.com so you go there for for all the podcasts, all the other stuff that I'm doing, all the craziness and everyone. I want to say, thank you so much for listening, Kim I want to say, thank you so much for coming on. This has been an absolute blast, and I hope everyone checks out. Gaga, five foot two by the way, Kim, do you know Gaga follows me on Twitter?

Kim Ray 1:09:39
No way.

Dave Bullis 1:09:40
I'm dead serious. I swear she follows me on Twitter.

Kim Ray 1:09:43
Oh, my God, she doesn't follow me on Twitter. I know because I never asked. I should ask her social media person, can she please follow me? I don't think she follows. I even know her manager, Bobby and I follow each other on Instagram. But, yeah, wow, you're you that's that's pretty impressive.

Dave Bullis 1:10:00
I don't even remember, can you believe this, Kim, I don't even remember how it happened. I just remember one day I was like, what? This can't be the real and it's the real. Lady Gaga verified and everything, and she follows my personal Wow. Look at Jae, yeah. Seriously,

Kim Ray 1:10:14
You should DM her. You should DM her.

Dave Bullis 1:10:16
I should, I should be. Hey, I had your producer on on the podcast. Come on.

Kim Ray 1:10:21
Tell her. You should tell her for sure. That's awesome.

Dave Bullis 1:10:26
That person I kicked out off the set that one day, like it's the same one. Gaga. That's funny. So Kim, I want to say again, thank you so much for coming on, and I wish you the best.

Kim Ray 1:10:39
All right, thanks so much, Dave you too.

Dave Bullis 1:10:41
Take care. Take care Kim.

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BPS 439: From Wrestling Rings to Public Access Mayhem: The Wild Ride of Mad Man Pondo

October 2, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

The world is far more peculiar than most of us dare to admit. Somewhere between a demolition derby and a wrestling ring, between the crackle of VHS tapes and the shriek of late-night public access, lies a man who has turned mayhem into meaning. On today’s episode, we welcome the unparalleled and unfiltered Mad Man Pondo, a professional wrestler and author whose life has been a whirlwind of body slams, topless TV hosts, and late-night green room oddities. With a voice still rough from last night’s match, he guides us into a tale of chaos, tenacity, and triumph.

Mad Man Pondo—real name Kevin Canady—is not merely a character in the ring. He is a living mosaic of outrageous stories and unshakable spirit. Raised in a reserved household, he found himself drawn to the fever-pitched passion of pro wrestling his grandparents once yelled at on their living room TV. That early spark lit a fire, and he never let it go out. As he says in this episode, “My mom still has the paper I filled out in grade school that said I wanted to be a professional wrestler.” That dream, written in crayon, would become a 30-year odyssey through blood, barbed wire, and blinding spotlights.

The journey to the ring was not paved with ease. Pondo describes the brutal, often humiliating, early days of wrestling school—the beatings, the busted lips, the sheer will required to prove he belonged. He tells of how many walked away, unwilling to endure it, while he pressed on. That kind of devotion would become his defining trait. When the legendary Abdullah the Butcher told him he had the talent to wrestle in Japan, Pondo drove through the night, edited his best matches on two old VCRs, and mailed the tape by sunrise. The result? Forty-three trips to the Land of the Rising Sun.

But Pondo’s life wasn’t confined to the ring. Ever curious, ever mischievous, he created “Skull Talk,” a public access show featuring wrestling commentary and, yes, topless women sitting on his lap. Equal parts performance art and rebellion, the show sandwiched between two church broadcasts caused outrage and fandom in equal measure. “One preacher would send me scripture every week,” he laughs. “But I knew he watched every episode.” This was Pondo in his purest form—pushing boundaries, dancing at the edge of decency, and always keeping his audience on their toes.

What’s perhaps most impressive is his ability to weave these escapades into something strangely noble. Whether talking about riding shotgun in a demolition derby car painted with horror icons or booking outrageous guests for the Jerry Springer Show, there’s a heart beneath the madness. His creation of “Girl Fight,” an all-women’s wrestling promotion, is a testament to his desire to give others a platform, to share the stage, to pass the torch. He’s not just fighting for himself anymore—he’s built a ring where others can rise too.

And then there’s the book, Memoirs of a Mad Man, a wild ride through his memories, filled with stories that make you laugh, cringe, and occasionally tear up. One story he held secret for decades—a deeply personal moment with wrestling legend Junkyard Dog—was finally shared in its pages. “I thought, you know what, let’s put this in there,” he says. “It was time.” In telling that story, and many others, he transformed scars into stories and chaos into legacy.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:07
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Without further ado, this week's episode as a guest who is a pro wrestler, TV personality and author of the new book, Memoirs of a Mad Man, which covers his entire 30 year career. Just, you know, it's not just a wrestling book, and he's gonna touch on that as well in this episode, you know, we're gonna chat all about becoming an agent for the Jerry Springer Show, creating his own public access TV show, participating in a demolition derby. And just, generally fun, crazy stories. And I honestly, this is a guy I've been trying to get on for a while, and then when I saw he came out with this book, I just finally, I was able to get him to come on. And finally he agreed to and said yes to come on with guest Mad Man Pondo.

Mad Man Pondo 2:38
Hey, thank you, man. For giving me time to talk about the book and whatever else want to talk about, and I'm ready to roll with you are

Dave Bullis 2:49
And you know, Pondo, it's funny because you and I have actually met way, way back in the CCW days. I was actually, I was a, you know, I used to go to all those shows back then. And I have a picture somewhere in my room. I have a picture of us, and it's you, myself, and Bridget, the midget. And it was, and it was just, it was hilarious, because I always use that photo, and I showed it, I used to show it to people, and people were like, it just looks like a story. That just an interesting story behind because Bridget has a bottle of wine with her. And, yeah, it's just, it's just, it's just funny, because, you know, it looks like there's such an interesting story behind it. And I was like, Well, let me tell you about Pando, and then I'll tell you about Bridget. And then, you know, I'm not that interesting, but you know, at least I, at least you guys are interesting.

Mad Man Pondo 3:34
There's a bunch of stories behind that. There's actually a few of them in the book, but, yeah, Bridget's real cool. We still talk today, and, you know, I get hit in the head a lot. I can't even remember her having a wine bottle or taking a picture, but, yeah, maybe put that on my Facebook sometime. That picture,

Dave Bullis 3:55
Yeah, I will do Pondo. I'll have to find it. I've been I it got kind of lost in the shuffle with all my other stuff as I've moved, but I'm gonna find that again, and I'll post that. But you're just just to get started. Pondo, you know, I wanted to ask you how you actually got started, you know, doing all this, all the wrestling and in the movies. So, you know, just to get started. You know, how did you get involved with wrestling? Did you watch a lot of wrestling growing up?

Mad Man Pondo 4:21
Man, did I this was all in the book, but I'll go ahead and tell you, but So at a very young age, I always realized my family is very reserved, and, you know, not like, super religious, but just never wanted to be the center of attention, and me and my brother would always go to family dinners on Sunday at my great grandma grandpa's house, and everything, you know, was pretty calm and and, but the cool thing was, we. And Evansville wrestling channel seven would come on out of Memphis, Tennessee, Jared King Lawler and Bill Dundee and all them guys. My great grandma and grandpa would lose their nuts like, you know, talking about dirty motherfuckers and and, you know, and me and my brother, we were just blown back that my great grandma and grandpa was talking like this, but it made me an instant fan of professional wrestling, just a good time that I would have listened to them. So at an early age, I told my mom and my dad that that's what I was going to do. I was going to be a professional wrestler, and my mom to this day, still has a paper from my school, grade school. It said, draw a picture of what you want to be when you grow up. And kids were drawing police officers and doctors and, you know, kiss ass. Kids was drawing teachers. Well, mine had a ring with two stick people wrestling, getting ready to wrestle each other, and that's what I put I want to be a professional wrestler. So my mom still has that paper today, and over the years, that's what she would hear. I want to be a professional so I want to be friends. So then it, you know, I was okay. So I'll give you this scenario. I lived in Florida, Illinois, an hour and a half to the West was St Louis, Missouri, which had wrestling at the chase. An hour to the South was Carmine, Illinois, Harrisburg, Illinois, and infield, Illinois, and that had Angelo potholes. I CW an hour and a half to the east was Evansville, Indiana that had CWA, which started the uswa Jeremy King mall, or Bill Dundee. Five hours to the North was Chicago, that just had everything, you know, Awa, WWF and WCW and Windy City and all these companies. And there was a guy named Roy West junior, and as long as you did good in school, he would take you, you know, to these wrestling shows. So I've been going to live wrestling shows since childhood, and then, excuse me, and then it I was friends with a college teacher named Milton Smith, and he called me on the phone one time and said, Hey, I have a professional wrestler in my class, and I said, please get the guy's telephone number. And he got it to me, and he said, Are you trying to get tickets out of the guy? And I said, No, this is my chance. I'm going to call this guy and become a professional wrestler. The guy's name was Terry Runyon, and he was in a team called the sensational Hill bullies, excuse me, I'm so sorry. I wrestled last night and I was healed. I yelled and my throats all scratchy, but so I called Terry ruggin and started school that very next week with a guy named Bud Chapman out of only Illinois. Both those guys are passed away now, but they were both the two that gave me a chance at professional wrestling. And you know, it's not just on my account, but everybody that was in that class says that I'm the one that, you know, I'm the only one that went far out of Bud Chapman school, which makes me feel pretty good, but that's where it started. It wasn't our core. It was just basic wrestling bit. So after I learned as much as I could out of Bud Chapman, Chris here, Chris champion, who just passed away, also, I started going down to wrestle for him, and then Bill Dundee at its furniture store, and I was villa, I started wrestling for him, and things just took off. And then I met Ian rotten and became retarded, landed in stuff, and here I am today.

Dave Bullis 9:21
And no worries, Bondo, about your voice. By the way, my, I'm actually sick right now, so if I said a little little bad, or you hear me, you know, hacking or something, that's what. That's what, what's wrong with me. But well, you know, you mentioned, you know, wrestling school and how you had to get connected. And, you know, do you look around today and you see all these different wrestling schools. I mean, do you ever, I mean, do you ever think to yourself like, my god, it's kind of the the ease of, of sort of access, is so much easier now, because, you know, they're, they're publicly, you know, mentioned these schools now, like, you know what I mean, like, they're positive promoted, and then they're all over the place now.

Mad Man Pondo 10:05
Well, I will say this, but when I got into wrestling, things were so much rougher, like I hear kids today get trade and not what job or, you know, don't pick me up and body slightly, just ridiculous stuff that I hear today. But the thing about it is, when I got into wrestling, then we got me and my best friend, Leslie Thompson, which, you know, we always called flick. It was part no flick, week after week after week. Tried to show these guys that this is where we wanted to be. You know, we'd go home with black eyes, busted lips. These guys didn't give too much care about our welfare. And finally, flick Toby, he's like, Man, I'm not paying to go down there and just get my ass kicked week after week. I'm like, well, it's gonna pay off someday, trust me. Well, he quit. I kept going, and now I'm the only one. There was two others where I got a small break. Now I'm the only one. So for about another three weeks, it was pretty bad. But finally, some more students came, and things got easier on me, because I wasn't the new guy anymore, plus, I'm kind of funny, so everybody kind of liked me, you know. So everything fell into place for me as a school. But, you know, I don't hate on how many wrestling schools there are, because the thing about it is, say there's 10 wrestling schools in the area. There's going to be one to two stars that go far out of those schools. So, you know, who knows? If say Joey Ryan, who's pretty huge though, if he didn't go to one of those, one out of 10 schools, would he be a star today? So, you know, those wanted kids schools just like me, I branched out, kept going, and and, you know, I'm not a star, but whatever you think about me is what I am. But you know, you got to have schools for future stars. And since we're on the subject, to also say, you know, it's just like what you said, okay, so always make sure the school that you go to is can can help you get a little farther. You know, the real honor school, let's Thatcher school to talk to, Tony as a school, you know, guys like that, that could get you just a little farther to help you get your name out there, Billy Bob's school, or John Smith School that he just bought a ring and put up in a barn and and, you know all the dress was have tennis shoes, maybe not the best choice. Always make sure the school we go to has a little bit of rep to it, where you should go a little farther?

Dave Bullis 13:28
Yeah, you know, that's good advice. Pond. Oh, so, you know, I even saw that. You know, Gangrel has a school now and more, and Ricky Morton has a school now. So I figured an excellent school. Yeah, I figured both most, most wrestling fans have heard of either one of those guys?

Mad Man Pondo 13:43
Right at she has a school out of California. You know, there's guys that I mean, adult, I might say this about every school that people don't know about, but, uh, you know, just make sure whoever owns the school that they care about the other wrestlers, not just the guy who says, Hey, make sure your dues are paid, and has everybody else go in and and train you. You know, always make sure it's somebody who cares about you.

Dave Bullis 14:16
Yeah, and that's, that's true too. And you got to make sure that, you know, you're not just $1 sign, right? You're actually, they're actually there to make sure see, you develop and succeed and and, you know, it's not just kind of like, hey, you know, give me your money and now go fuck off. Right? Exactly, you know, Panda, one of the stories that I can't remember. It's in the book, but I remember hearing this. You tell the story on Hannibal's podcast, where you know you wanted to, you had the opportunity to go to Japan to wrestle, and you had to drive all the way home to make a tape. I think that I love that story, because that just shows you your determination. And I love stories like that because it's kind of like my. Know, what are you willing to do, or how are you willing to pay your dues, to sort of follow your dreams. So if you don't mind, you know, would you mind retold that story, just for those listening,

Mad Man Pondo 15:10
I was wrestling Abdullah the butcher in Overland, Missouri, and I believe I was leaving League of I believe I was living in either Florida, Illinois or Louisville, Kentucky. Man, I swear my brains are beat out, and I forget things so much, but I'm doing the butcher. After I got, we got done wrestling, was really happy with that match. And he said, kid, you got it, you know, you need to, you need to go to Japan. And when he said that, I was a flabbergast of of excitement. So he said, uh, I'll tell you what. I'm going to Japan in four days. So if you can get me a video tape by the time I come back, when I go back to Japan, I will take your video tape and see what I can't do for you. I didn't let that slide the you know, I was so excited I couldn't sleep. Anyway, so from old Missouri, I drove straight home, got my two VCRs together, put the cables in, stayed up all night, make this video tape, and was at the post office when it opened. I think I rested him on a Friday. So it was, it was going to be open from nine to noon. The post office is going to be open from nine to noon on Saturday. Went to the post office overnighted. I don't remember back then, it wasn't as bad as what it is now. I think it was like 24 bucks or something like that. Overnighted, this video tape to Abdul was restaurant, and then three, within three days, he called me on the phone and said, Damn champ, you really want to go to Japan, don't you? I said, Yes, sir, I do. He took the videotape that time, and the next time he went, I was going to so not only was he telling the truth, but he also realized the determination that you know, that that was my dream. Never WWE, WCW, none of the big companies my dream was. I wanted to go to Japan and wrestle, and 43 trips there and back. I believe I exceeded my dream pretty hard.

Dave Bullis 17:28
Yeah. And it also shows, again, you know, what I was, you know, just saying before, you know, it really just shows you were willing to just do whatever it took. Because, you know, other people would, it may have just been like, Well, shit, I don't have anything ready. Do. I really want to drive all the way back? Then have to edit a tape together then send it out. You know what I mean, like? So you actually just, you know, just drove back, and it was like, wasn't even a thought. It was like I had another option. I guess I just got to do this

Mad Man Pondo 17:51
All the way home. I was thinking of what matches to put on this, on this video tape. So if that tells you how determined I was that, you know, like I remember, and I had it for the longest time, and I don't anymore. I've been divorced and broke up with chicks so much that, or they broke up with me, however, but stuff skip left behind. But I had the snapkin that had the matches that I wanted to put on it, and the listing of of how I wanted to do it. So yeah, the minute he said that, that's all I could think of was, hell yeah, I can't wait to get home and make the state. And another funny thing, yeah, when Hannibal, when I was on his podcast, he asked me, he was like, so how did you get in Japan? And I was like, man, I was hoping you wouldn't ask for this, but Abdullah got me over there, but it wasn't comfortable, was what I thought it was. But, yeah, he really didn't even act like it fazed him. And so there's that story,

Dave Bullis 19:08
So when you finally were able to go to Japan, I mean, that was your dream. So that first, you know, that first tour, that first day that you kind of set foot on Japanese soil, you know, what did that feel like Pondo?

Mad Man Pondo 19:20
Well, of course, this was before cell phones. But there was a thing at the airport that said, Welcome to Japan. I just sat there, and I looked at it for a minute, and then so people walking by, I had them take my picture. You know, of course, it wasn't a digital picture. It was a this was before anything modern, so it was just one of those little disposable cameras, but I took, like, four or five pictures in front of the side that said, Welcome to Japan. I had made it you know, that was the dream. And there I was. I had three dreams growing up. I wanted to be the demolition therapy. I wanted to marry an Asian chick. What wrestle Japan, and I pretty well exceeded all three

Dave Bullis 20:25
So and so you actually did end up going into a demolition derby.

Mad Man Pondo 20:30
I sure did. My car was decked out in horror movies like I had Chase hood, leather face, Freddie. Michael Byers, tall man. Jack Nicholson from the shiny I mean, my car looked look like sorted out of a comic book when I was done. But yeah, I my buddies Sam Delaney and Robert Delaney knew how bad I want to be. The boys to therapy. They they sold me a car for 200 bucks, helped me put it together, and yep, I got to a divolistic Derby.

Dave Bullis 21:05
So, so did you end up? Did you end up winning?

Mad Man Pondo 21:11
No, not at all. Maybe, maybe I didn't understand that you're not supposed to hit people hard and save your car. And there was a guy who was kind of sandbag and ladder up right around the entrance to where he wouldn't get pushed up on a log. So I went from one end of the of the track to the other. Hit this guy, and when I did it, not my accelerator off. It was like it was laying down on the floor. And after that, I knew I was done.

Dave Bullis 21:48
See, I would have made that same mistake pond, though. I would always say, get the idea is to just wreck as much stuff as possible, right? So, yeah, I mean, hey, you know that's awesome, man, you're able to at least do that. And again, by the way, that's a really cool idea for a car. By the way,

Mad Man Pondo 22:04
It was so cool. And of course, my number was Friday the 13th,

Dave Bullis 22:11
So 513 was the name of the car.

Mad Man Pondo 22:14
Yes, number 13.

Dave Bullis 22:18
That's really cool, man. Would you ever do another demolition derby?

Mad Man Pondo 22:24
Actually, there is a tag team called the Mercy Brothers out of there, out of strictly insane pro wrestling in cross hill, Illinois, and there is a demolition derby where you can have a rider with you. And one of them asked me if I wanted to ride with the boys and Derby. And I said, Hell yeah, I'm there till January. I'm not going to be driving, but I will be in another demolition derby.

Dave Bullis 22:53
That's cool. So you're going to be kind of like, you can actually give him advice too. You might tell him, like, hey, look, don't, don't just smash, don't drive across the track full speed and smashing to somebody.

Mad Man Pondo 23:03
I think he's done a few, so I think, you know, he's, he's got it, but that was my first and only one, and I didn't have it at all

Dave Bullis 23:13
But I would have made that same mistake,

Mad Man Pondo 23:16
Right!

Dave Bullis 23:18
So Pondo you know, as you, you know, continue your career. You were doing wrestling and all the independence, you got a you actually started your own public access show. And this is really cool, because, you know, I again, I've heard the story before, and I've read it in your book, but you were able to start your own public access show called skull talk TV. And, you know, it's so interesting. So could you do tell everybody, you know, you know how you got able to, how you able to start this show, and you know how, what the theme, whole, you know, theme and format of the show was,

Mad Man Pondo 23:52
Well, I was working for IWA, mid south, and an older gentleman like, I don't think, I don't even think I saw him at another show, but an older gentleman was coming over and telling me he he really liked my stuff, you know, that I was a good character. And he started telling me that this wrestling should be on TV here in Louisville for that. He said, There's a, there's a company called back, any better what day is called, excuse me, let me get a drink real quick. And you know, the wrestling is horrible. He said, You know, you guys should try and do something on public access I told him. I said, Well, Ian sells these DVDs. I'm pretty sure he's not want to give them away, free on a public access show. So he said, You know, I try to watch Public. Access as much as I can. But one of the biggest problems with it is they, they could do whatever they want on public access. And I was like, really? He was like, yeah, they could cuss and they can say as much as the effort on there. I was like, I'm appalled. And then next thing he said, and you know, what else they could do? They could have nudity on there. And I was like, no kidding, and I just act like I was so disgusted. But by the next week or two, I had a public access show on on there, just by that guy telling me what I could couldn't do. But it was called, call, talk. It was one of the best and worst ideas I ever had. I I was a big Cape trader back in the day, but I still had a whole bunch of those video tapes. And what I did was I would put together, I had two VCRs, and I would edit, edit everything myself, and I would have topless or naked girls sitting on my lap, and I would introduce different wrestling matches, and then we would play them, and it was just a half hour show, but, you know, I'd have, like, old matches from Florida with Jimmy Delray. I do believe I had a, I don't remember what the matches was, but the cool thing was, I had these naked chicks sitting on my lap for no apparent reason, just that there was naked chicks sitting on my lap. Now one of the rule, well, not one, but there was a few rules. You couldn't advertise anything. You couldn't show penis, which I wouldn't anyway, and you couldn't show penetration. Well, I this was back when web TV. Do you remember web TV? Yeah, yeah. I had a web TV. Well, you could put your email address at the bottom there. So I put my my web TV address, which would really activate everybody was Mad Man Pondo in the house, which was long enough, and then you had to put at Web tv.com so everybody who was best for me had to write out that whole thing, Batman, pondo in so that was at the bottom which my every episode, my inbox would just be full 50/50, 50% of People. Oh, I love this show. This is so funny. What a great idea. The other 50 was all hate, and I think it's a public outfit show. I think they was having a little fun with either me or or the other shows. But I was in the middle of two religious church shows. There would be a religious church show, naked chicks on my lap, and then another religious church show, and this one preacher, every episode would just, you know, write this. He'd put scripture on my in my inbox, and, you know, tell me how fast I was going. To Hell, I tried, yeah, just all this stuff. So finally, it got down to being a little bored of it, and I had a girl use a vibrator on herself, and that was considered penetration. So they called me on the phone and said, I'm sorry we're not going to be able to play your TV show anymore. Was because I was kind of bored, not because the girls were such a problem. You know what? What you think could take 10-15 minutes was taking hours because the girls had to pee, or, you know, they wanted to check their makeup, all this shit. So I really just let it go. And that was after, I believe, 17 episodes. And finally, that after maybe a month, month and a half that cable cut the public access people called me back and said we was wondering if you could keep on doing those shows, because people was was ordering cable just to watch your shows, and by then I was done with it. I said, No, I'm not interested. Thank you. But it was a good feeling knowing that that many people watched it or talked about it to the public access show that they would call me and ask me to come back.

Dave Bullis 29:46
Yeah, because, I imagine, because they weren't really going to pay anyway. So you're probably, you know, it was kind of like a, you know, really like a no brainer for you, right, right,

Mad Man Pondo 30:04
Exactly.

Dave Bullis 30:04
So, you know, potty you mentioned the girls, you know, how would you approach girls, you know, to come on, to come on. Skull Talk?

Mad Man Pondo 30:12
Tower of Doom was running a company in Cincinnati, Ohio, and there was only strippers around. So that's where it started, first the strippers from his shows, and then every episode I would put on web TV. Hey, if you'd like to appear, if you're a hot chick and you'd like to appear on public access on my show, please email me. Well, then the email started coming in. And out of every 10 girls, you might get one or two, but that was good enough for me, you know, because that it was coming to my house, and we would put up a backdrop and and film them. But like I said, it was just like, one would say, Oh yeah, I'm so into this. And then, you know, here we'll wait on her one hour, two hours, all right, she's not coming. But when those ones that did show up, you'd be excited about it. You're like, alright, we got another episode two. And like I said, two or three hours into them, just being divas. It was just so rough, so rough at the end of the night. So yeah, I was ready for it to stop, but couldn't stop, because one, I was just I was just so into the TV show, because I would go to restless shows, and people would say, Man, I saw that call talk episode. It was so awesome. And two, I couldn't let these religious guys beat me. But there was even a point where I took my own video tape to the public access station, and as I was walking in, the guy that had a religious show on before mine was walking out. We didn't say nothing to each other, but he stared at me all the way in, and I stared at him all the way, you know, so, I mean, it was time for it to stop, and when they called us if I would continue, I was I had already taken a break from it and didn't have the headaches and the problems with it. And I was like, Nah, I'm not interested,

Dave Bullis 32:34
Yeah, especially when you're doing it for love of the game, right? Because I had a friend of mine who was a he was to do photography. And every so often, like, you know, he did professional photography, you know, he did different models and stuff. So every so often, you know, you know, friends of his, you know, would say, hey, I want to come in. And would you give me, you know, a discount on something? So he would generally just say, hey, look, we've known each other for a while. If you come in on a Sunday at like, you know, I don't know, like, noon or whatever, or 10am he's like, I'll just, I'll give you a whole session for free, because, you know, I'm not gonna nickel and dime you. And you know, they would say, Oh, thank you. I'm so I can't wait. And he would drive to his studio, and he would wait and wait, and they would be, like, an hour or two hours late, three hours late. And finally, he would just be like, you know, be texting him. And then they would get there and be like, we don't know what to wear. Should we not do this? Blah, blah. And finally, he just goes, I'm not doing this for anybody anymore. He's like, they have to pay me now to do this, just because it became so it became a beast onto itself,

Mad Man Pondo 33:35
Right! Exactly. You wouldn't think it would you think it would just be something so easy of somebody coming in, sitting on my lap. You know, they don't have to talk, they don't have to do nothing, they just have to show their kids. That's it. But that was just such a chore for time after time. And you're just like, I'm sick of this, yeah? Which is really saying something. When a guy says, Man, I'm sick of these titties. Get dude out of here. Yeah,

Dave Bullis 34:04
That should be a quote from you, pondo, I'm sick of these titties. Get him out of here. There you go. You know, Pondo, in your book, by the way, I have to ask. There was a you said on the public access. There was a you turned it on one day, and there was a show called I eat poop.

Mad Man Pondo 34:20
Yes, that was the that was the when the old guy told me about the shows. I started a I started watching some public heads to see what the guy was talking about. And that was one of the shows I poop.

Dave Bullis 34:35
So is he I guess this is a dumb question on my part. Is it, is it exactly what it sounds like, or is it different?

Mad Man Pondo 34:43
No, it was just four or five guys doing their best at like Saturday Night Live skits, but failing horribly. But you know they would train the fuck word and you know they would have a good. Girls with small outfits on, but not totally nude. And, and I didn't, you know, it was just funny that there was a show on called ie poo, but of course, they would cut so people would like it. But then when skull talk, come on, and there's actual naked girls, and, you know, not just tits, there's vaginas and and, you know, I'm fuck this and suck that, and I don't know, I guess it just people was more amazed about that and tuning in. I don't even take you had to be a wrestler fan to watch my TV show. It was just so a shock value that it was on TV that people would tune in, but they're religious guys, man, they would talk about how terrible it was, but they would watch every episode and write me so, you know,

Dave Bullis 35:56
No, I was gonna say They're closet fans Pondo,

Mad Man Pondo 35:59
Exactly,

Dave Bullis 36:02
It kind of reminds me a few years ago, Howard Stern used to direct people to the what is it like the parents watch group? Because basically this parents watch group, well, on their website, they they had a they had a collection of all the worst things on the internet. I was like, Oh my God, look at this. This is awful. We got to boycott this. Or, oh my God, look at this. Well, it accidentally became this, like hub. Now, for all of this, like, awful stuff that people could like, Oh, you want to do something bad, go to the people in charge of decency, quote, unquote. And it was like, it was just this big collection of stuff. And then they had to, like, they had to, like they had, they started to realize all these people were coming to their site. And it was like it was made it even easier to access all the stuff

Mad Man Pondo 36:48
I do. The same thing with there's a there's a website. It's called Bad numbers.com and what bad numbers.com is, it's a website that will put numbers that people have called their number, their number. And you know, it's like the Microsoft scammers or the FBI is about to rest you if you don't give us this money, scammers. And the reason the website was made was so you don't call these telephone numbers, but I figured if scammers are out to waste our time, we need to waste as much as their time as well. So I'll go to that side. I'll find a bad number, and I'll get a bunch of friends around, and I'll start with these cameras. So kind of like the same what you just said with the Howard Stern

Dave Bullis 37:44
You know, that that seems like that would be a pretty funny, you know, TV show or podcast Pondo,

Mad Man Pondo 37:49
I hear you. Maybe I'll, I'll try to do that.

Dave Bullis 37:53
And if you do that, just, just remember your old pal, Dave, I'll do it. That was about, you know, after, you did skull talk TV, you know, you ended up becoming a producer for the Jerry Springer show.

Mad Man Pondo 38:06
I wouldn't call me a producer. I would call me a hired hand. I mean, I was just getting them guests and and, you know, they was, they was giving me a check so, and all I had to do was call in and and, of course, all my friends are show offs just like me and was ready to go. So it was, it was a win, win situation for everybody.

Dave Bullis 38:33
So, so how did they go about contacting you to come on the show and to sort of be the hired hand for them?

Mad Man Pondo 38:38
Well, my buddy ace craft got on the jarred show, and they asked him, Do you know any crazy people? And of course, he showed them my videos, and I was on the show twice. And finally they asked, Hey, do you know any crazy you know crazy people yourselves? And I said, I'm a wrestler. I know all pops are crazy people. So I just started getting wrestlers or fans and putting them on the show. And that's like, I know I got $800 check, $600 check. And I was like, Well, this is easy, but just like the Scott off show after a while, just, you know, got so boring because they wanted you on call 24 hours. If they needed somebody at 2,3,4, in the morning, they would call you and say, Hey, we need this. Well, who the hell you got to get it two or three or four in the morning? So, but they was very demanding, you know? And then when he said, Well, I don't know who I'm going to get. Wow, we've been paying you. We've been doing, you know, it just became bullshit, and I didn't want to do it no more, so I stopped.

Dave Bullis 39:46
Yeah, I can imagine getting called two or three in the morning and just being like, hey, Bondo, we need a, you know, a couple to come on the show or whatever. And you're like, Well, how am I supposed to get that right now? It's, you know, it's three o'clock in the morning and, you know. They may be halfway across the country.

Alex Ferrari 40:03
Right! Exactly.

Dave Bullis 40:15
So you know Panda, what was some of the you know, some of the crazy people you met while while doing spring. I knew in the book you mentioned that you met Butterbean.

Mad Man Pondo 40:22
Yeah, Butterbean rod Jeremy was there for one and one of the Backstreet Boys. I don't listen to him, so I don't remember who it was, but he was just there to work. I guess he was doing a concert somewhere in the area, and he he was at the show to to watch, not to be on the show, but I got to meet him. And you know I mean, and plus, if you when you would go to the circus, it wasn't the circus that would draw me in. It was the small freak show before the circus. Jerry Springer show from Green Room to green room was its own free show that I just loved. And they would fly me in to hang out with, you know, the people that I was getting on the show. So I was able to go to green room to green room to green room. And, man, I'm telling you, there was some, there was some strange ones, some hot ones, some ugly ones, some misshaped ones. I mean, that Jerry's free of green rooms was a freak show all of itself, and it would draw me in.

Dave Bullis 41:36
So you mentioned, you know, I actually, I mentioned butter bean, you know. So was he? Was he there to be a guest on the show?

Mad Man Pondo 41:42
Yes, but he was in the back with us first. He was like waiting in line. I guess his manager had called the Springer show and said, Hey, better be be interested in coming in. So of course, they put him on the front row and And ironically, that was, I got all the guests for that show, except two. And two of the guests that I got was, was the bumping ugly, and my buddy Bubba was like challenging Butterbean to get up on stage and fight him. So, you know, just Yeah, butter bean and and Ron, Jamie. I don't remember why he was there. He was on the show, though, for that, I do believe, I don't remember, but, you know, just any, any little perk that he got, and of course, I would get to hang out with Jerry every once in a while. Steve didn't really care for me, so I didn't really get to hang out with Steve all that much. But Jerry Springer was a really nice guy, and, you know, he would talk to us and stuff, and he would go from green room to green room and welcome everybody there. So I got to meet him a lot, you know, be in all these green rooms, and it was a fun experience. But when it's time to go, it's time to go, you know,

Dave Bullis 43:06
Yeah, I definitely know what you mean. You know, just to sort of follow with butter bean, you mentioned him fighting, you know, somebody challenging him to fight him on stage. Do you remember what butter bean fought in the brawl for all in WWF? I do, yeah. What are your thoughts on that whole Brawl for all thing, yeah? I mean, it just Yeah. I remember when butter being knocked out Bart gun in like 20 seconds. But what did you think about that whole competition? You know, that was actually legit.

Mad Man Pondo 43:35
I mean, of course I was. I couldn't take my eyes off of it. But I'll tell you a funny story. Do you remember bar gun won one of those? I know, I know he got beat down my butter bean, and I don't remember the situation. But Bart Gunn won one of those Brawl for it all, and he brought the trophy to IWA, mid south, and he said he would get it when he when he came back, and he never came back. So the original trophy was sitting in the locker room of IWA, mid south for, I bet all we year. But, uh, it was the original trophy from brawford Hall. You know, big, tall thing about I better come up to my shoulder. And think somebody who won that trophy would want it back, but it was just there for some reason.

Dave Bullis 44:29
So did he did it. So whatever happened to it?

Mad Man Pondo 44:32
You know, I don't know, but Ian probably sold it on eBay for something. I don't know, but it was there for I remember a long time.

Dave Bullis 44:44
Yeah, I would have been kind of funny if you had taken it and been like, you're there, you're there. Brawl, fall champion,

Mad Man Pondo 44:51
Nah, I'm not. I'm not. That'd be like a target on my forehead saying something I can I ain't having them guys beat the shit out of me.

Dave Bullis 44:59
Me, no, I'm just kidding, pondo, I mean, plus, you're such an awesome guy, I can't imagine, like I do remember. I do remember the brawl for all when Bart Gunn beat Dr Death, that was kind of, that was kind of an upset. But I remember, yeah, I mean, and they thought Dr death was gonna win the whole thing. Do you remember that?

Mad Man Pondo 45:17
I do. Yeah, they was pumping it up. I don't even think Bart Gunn had a promo. It was Dr Neptune promos, all to the thing. And that thing, you know, Bart Gunn, you know, just knocked him out.

Dave Bullis 45:33
Yeah, and then, and then they had him, had him fight butter bean. And, I mean, I mean that that was, I mean, I mean butter bean, you know, he's, I don't know how you classify butter bean, if he's like an amateur or a professional, or somewhere in between, but I mean that guy, I mean he was a legit fighter, regardless, when I saw because I actually saw that, that fight, and when I saw that, I and, you know, within the first a couple of seconds, butter bean knocked bark on down, and then I think couple seconds later, he just gave him that right hook. And, I mean, he dropped our gun, and I think Bart Gunn, like, kind of left after that, right. I can't remember, but

Mad Man Pondo 46:11
I think that was his demise. I think when he lost that, that was more or less his ticket out,

Dave Bullis 46:19
Yeah, and then, and but, yeah, you know, just to kind of tie this all in, I'm surprised he actually, you know, left that trophy there in the locker room. Did you think maybe, do you think maybe he just forgot that, where he left it,

Mad Man Pondo 46:30
Or just didn't get two shits about it? One of the two,

Dave Bullis 46:34
Yeah, yeah, that's true. But yeah. Now I guess it's kind of lost, or it was sold somewhere on eBay. But that's interesting as hell, man. But you know, just to, you know, just to continue along, you know, I just want to say, pando, you know, I read your book from cover to cover I and when I heard it was coming out, I was really excited, because, again, I followed your career for a while when I, when I used to watch wrestling. I haven't watched wrestling since probably 2004 or five right around when I graduated high school, and I just, kind of, I just got, kind of, kind of got out of it, but, but, you know, the your your book, Memoirs of a madman, it's sitting right here next to me. I have so I actually marked up some pages so I, you know, had some things that, you know, I was like, Oh, I better ask about this. I want to ask him more about this. But, you know, where did you start to, you know, one you know, did you sort of get the impetus to write your own book?

Mad Man Pondo 47:27
There was John Costner, wrote another book called revel, and he had asked me, I don't even remember what the question he asked me, but I had a couple of paragraphs in that book. And people kept asking John coffd, hey, if mad man ponto wrote a couple of paragraphs, you should do a book on him. It'd be really funny and entertaining. So John Costner kept asking me, you know, hey, I want to do a book on you. Are you interested in you know, to me, I don't know if it's the humbleness in me or just the the fried of nobody giving a shit, but, you know, I was, I was really on the fence about, I don't know, you know, I don't know about being a book, because I didn't want a book written about me and then walking in like the Dollar Tree, and it's, it's even half off at the Dollar Tree, you know, just some shit like that. But finally, people started coming to me and saying, Hey, you should, you should write a book, you know. And they didn't even know that John Costner was making me the the proposition. So then I started thinking, Oh, maybe, maybe people would read my book. So I went to John Cosworth, I said, All right, let's do it. Let's write this Batman pondo book. And when I finally did agree to do the book, he was also working on dr d David Schultz's book, which is also available. And so it took longer to get the book written, because he would, he was really focusing then on that. And there was a lot of stuff he had to go over, but on his free time, we would meet at Denny's or his house and and work on my book. And then finally, when he was done with Dr D's, we just focused in on it, got it done, and there it is in front of you. But I just want everybody to know that, yes, I'm a wrestler, but this book isn't all about my wrestling career. I put things that I messed up in my life, funny things that I did on the road. I believe there is a whole conversation with a Nigerian scammer in there. There's, I made it in a comic book that's in there. It's full of pictures that a few. That I've taken over the years. I mean this, So much, so much in this book. And when John, after it came out, John Cosper wrote me. He said, Hey, you're the number one wrestling autobiography on Amazon. I was like, Holy shit, are you kidding me? So it showed me that people did really want to hear what I had to say. But, uh, in reality, I was just the newest book. And then Shinsuke wrote his and then, you know that number one thought got the shit kicked out of it, but I was a number one something on Amazon, which is a pretty big thing for me. So like I said, you should get this book on amazon.com, or you can contact John Costner, get your own autograph copy at eatsleep wrestle.com,

Dave Bullis 50:58
And I'm gonna, I'm gonna link to everything Pondo and I just talked about there in the show notes. Everybody, Pondo, just want to ask you real quick, what is your favorite story from the book?

Mad Man Pondo 51:12
I don't know if it's my favorite story, but as you read the book, you saw that I held on to a story and never told anybody. And then finally, when I was writing the book, I thought, You know what, let's put this in there. And it was the junkyard dog story. Did you Did you like that story?

Dave Bullis 51:35
Yeah, I did, actually,

Speaker 1 51:36
That was, that was the one. That was the story that I held on to for my 29 years of wrestling. And I was like, You know what? Fuck it. Let's put it in there. And so let's not ruin it for everybody what the Jack garddock story is, but that was probably my favorite one that I put in the book.

Dave Bullis 51:57
Yeah, yeah. We will ruin the story. But I have two favorite stories from the book. One is the Abdullah butcher story and and the other one is the is the Joe Leduc story.

Mad Man Pondo 52:10
Yeah, I get asked a lot about that Joe Leduc story,

Dave Bullis 52:18
Because I think that's hilarious, because I can just see something like, like, you know what? We'll call it an unfortunate series of events, happening, things just keep getting worse and worse, and you can't

Mad Man Pondo 52:31
Wrong place at the wrong time.

Dave Bullis 52:35
Yeah, it's just like, whatever could have went wrong in that story went wrong for for you. Pondo, like, even from the get go, from the get go, it was, it was, it was bad,

Mad Man Pondo 52:45
But it was real bad, but he made me a star at my school. So they'll, you know,

Dave Bullis 52:53
Yeah, is it all. It all worked out in the end. So, you know, Pondo, we've been talking for about, you know, roughly 50 minutes now. So just in closing, is there anything you you sort of want to say to put a period at the end of this whole conversation?

Mad Man Pondo 53:06
Well, we didn't, we didn't cap on it, but I've started my own all girls reference company. It's called Girl Fight Refluent. You can go to Facebook and search girl fight. It'll be the first time that pops up and, you know, it's a platform for newer girls to network and get to work with the vet girls. So I'm pretty proud of it. And we have another one. We've been we did one called Midnight girl fight. We drew pretty good for it. So the night before Thanksgiving, we're going to have another midnight girl fight. And what that is we started 11:59 because if I started it at midnight, oh my god, you can't believe how many people thought a Friday show was going to be on a Saturday. You know, it was just a big headache. So I changed the flyer, and it starts on 1159, on Wednesday, and it's just a good time. You know. I mean, people come out at midnight and it's still really loud, and they're all having a good time. But, you know, pick up a girl fight DVD or whatever and and see what we're all about, but a girl fight. That's my my all girls wrestling company

Dave Bullis 54:28
Yeah, and I'll make sure to link to that in the show notes. Is, uh, is there any social media sites that people can find you at Pondo?

Mad Man Pondo 54:34
You know, I'm real terrible about that shit, but, uh, my name is Kevin Canady, C, A, N, A, D, Y, and I'm on Facebook, and I do have an Instagram and a Twitter, but I don't know, for the longest time on Twitter, I was writing people and they wouldn't write me back. I'm like, What an asshole, but I didn't know you had to put at at the beginning of who you're trying to. It, right? So I was the assho. But anyway, Facebook is probably the easiest one. And that's Kevin Canady, C, A, N, A, D, Y, I think there's a picture of me and Elvira. Yeah, it is. It's me and Elvira is my profile pic right now.

Dave Bullis 55:16
And I'll link that in the show notes, by the way. I think Pondo, I think you're at your friends cap, because I actually sent you a friend request and it just said, I think you were at your limit.

Mad Man Pondo 55:29
Well, I'll delete some people. I don't give a shit.

Dave Bullis 55:32
Yeah, thank you. You make room. Just make some room for me. But Mad Man Pondo, I'm gonna say thank you so much for coming on.

Mad Man Pondo 55:42
Man, thank you for giving me the time. Man, like you can't wrestle enough to keep on living after you die, so things like this help my name stay out there. Thank you so much.

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BPS 438: Why Your Script Still Isn’t Getting Read; And What to Do About It with Whitney Davis

September 25, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

In a world where stories are the heartbeat of cinema, it’s a rare gift to hear from someone who not only understands the creative pulse of screenwriting, but also the business savvy required to get scripts into the right hands. In this candid and energizing episode, we welcome Whitney Davis, a literary manager and script consultant who’s carved out a unique path helping screenwriters navigate the often bewildering landscape of Hollywood. Her journey began in the most unexpected of places—pitching a book idea at a party while balancing motherhood—only to be discovered by a top TV lit agent who instantly saw the project’s potential as a television series.

What makes Whitney’s story so compelling is that she didn’t come to Los Angeles to break into the industry. It found her. Through a string of bold choices, lucky timing, and her fearless willingness to step into the unknown, she found herself developing a TV show and entering the high-stakes world of studio pitching. But when the writers’ strike hit and priorities shifted, she pivoted into script consulting. From there, one natural step led to another—and she began managing writers. For those of us in the filmmaking space, her story is a reminder that sometimes the career finds you when you’re already busy creating.

Throughout the episode, Whitney shares priceless insights into what truly makes a screenwriter stand out in today’s hyper-competitive industry. She isn’t interested in flashy gimmicks or name-dropping references to Tarantino or Nolan. Instead, she wants to see writers who know how to communicate authentically—people who can hold a conversation, who’ve honed their voice, and who understand the rhythm of story. “You don’t need a perfect pitch,” she says, “you need a great story, told like you’re chatting with a friend.” It’s advice filmmakers and writers alike would do well to remember.

Whitney dives deep into the art of the pitch and demystifies the often confusing world of representation. She breaks down the differences between agents and managers, noting that managers, especially, are essential early in a filmmaker’s or writer’s career. Managers help shape ideas, coach development, and create momentum. “It’s like a marriage,” she says. “If I’m going to rep you, I have to believe in your voice and know how to position your work.” That’s not just smart—it’s strategy.

She also highlights what turns her off: poor grammar in query letters, sloppy communication, impatience, and a lack of professionalism. For filmmakers and writers seeking representation, she urges a meticulous approach. Do your homework on the people you’re querying. Be respectful of their time. And never, ever spam them with mass emails. Whitney emphasizes that great writing isn’t enough. Being a great collaborator is just as important. “You’re not just pitching your story,” she explains. “You’re pitching yourself as someone worth working with.”

Her approach is refreshingly grounded and actionable. If you’re not in Los Angeles, she recommends saving up for a trip to attend top-tier events like the Great American PitchFest or Austin Film Festival. Better yet, build relationships online—Twitter, she says, has become a powerful hub for connecting with reps, writers, and producers. She encourages filmmakers to take advantage of contests, consulting services, and peer feedback as a way to sharpen their craft and increase visibility.

Perhaps the most refreshing aspect of Whitney’s perspective is her deep passion for helping storytellers rise. Whether she’s managing a writer or consulting on a script, she brings an energy that feels rare in an industry often marked by cynicism. Her goal isn’t just to sell projects—it’s to help people grow into the kind of creatives who can sustain careers. “Write because you love it,” she says. “The money and opportunities will come if you stay focused and keep showing up.”

This episode is a must-listen for any filmmaker who’s ever wondered what it really takes to get to the next level—not through shortcuts or formulas, but through clarity, consistency, and a strong creative voice. Whether you’re a writer, director, or producer, the lessons shared by Whitney Davis are a blueprint for building a career rooted in purpose and professionalism.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:49
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:53
So my guest today is a literary manager and script consultant, and she runs her own consulting agency, and we discussed that very question, what does it take to make it to the next level? And we all know what that next level is, and that's all really very subjective, and I want to make sure everyone knows that. Because if you know, if you haven't read a script before, your next level is writing a script. If you've written 10 scripts, and your next level is, you want to get representation. You have representation. Your next level is, you want to get it made by an A list cast and crew. Sounds simple, right? With guest, Whitney Davis. Hey Whitney, thanks a lot for coming on the show.

Whitney Davis 2:30
Hey, thank you for having me.

Dave Bullis 2:33
You know my pleasure. You know it's funny. We were trying to get a hold each other for a while now, we just keep missing each other, but I'm so glad we could finally connect. Because I, you know, I saw your bio, and you have a really, really cool bio, and I said, I got to get Whitney on the podcast.

Whitney Davis 2:52
Well, thanks. It's been quite a journey, that is for sure.

Dave Bullis 2:57
Yeah. And I actually wanted to ask about that journey. And I wanted to ask, you know, Whitney, how did you get started, you know, in the whole literary management business, and how did you get involved in the consulting business, you know? So, basically, what I'm asking is, where did this whole journey start?

Whitney Davis 3:12
Oh, my gosh, this crazy story, to make it short, because it obviously has been a 10 year journey. Essentially, I was in the right place at the right time with the right person, is how this whole journey started. About 10 years ago, I had moved to Los Angeles with zero aspirations to be in the entertainment industry. It wasn't even really on my radar. And I had always thought I was going to be a novelist, actually, that if I ever really sat down and put pen to paper, which I think is something that a lot of people struggle with actually getting started, that if I ever actually got started, that I was going to write a book, and I was actually at a party, and this woman approached me, and I didn't know who she was or what she did, and she asked me what I was doing with myself. And I was like, Well, I'm actually raising a baby. And she's like, but no, honey, really. I mean, what do you want to do? And I was like, Well, you know, maybe I'll write a book. And so she started asking me about it, and when I told her about this concept for my book, her face just dropped. And she was like, I'm gonna have my assistant contact you tomorrow. And I was like, what is that? And so her assistant actually did come over the next day, and I kid you not. This never happens. That was a stack of TV pilot screeners, like DVDs and a stack of TV pilots. And they said, Forget your book concepts. Were turning it into an original television series. And she happened to be a TV lit agent with William Morris at the time. And so that is how I got my start. And to segue into the other part of it, you know, I started into in the television business, and then the writer strike happened. And so people started. Once I was out of work, people started bringing me their scripts, just being like, Hey, can you look this over, since you already kind of broke in? And I was like, Sure. And so I did it for free for a while, because I didn't know any better. And then I was like, Maybe I should charge, and people will go away. And then it just got worse. And. So I just did script development for a long time, and then crazy enough again, this just organically occurred. Some of my clients that were starting to do well in the contest asked if I would consider managing them, and I said no for a long time, and then it was just like I was actually already kind of orchestrating meetings. And so I finally just said, What the heck? And I just jumped in with both feet. So that is how I got to where I am today. In a nutshell, very crazy.

Dave Bullis 5:27
So when you when you first moved to LA, was there a reason that you moved to LA? Because I know you said you didn't want to be in the entertainment business at that point.

Whitney Davis 5:37
Yeah. So my husband, at the time, he was there for grad school, and so he had come to UCLA to get his master's degree. And I actually had applied to be an English teacher at Santa Monica High School, but then I found out I was pregnant, so I just decided the baby was coming in December, which was going to be in the middle of the year. So I just actually decided not to teach at all. And again, like, it was just the perfect timing that, right, you know, right after the baby was born, and I was kind of had my feet back on, you know, up again, that I ran into this woman and started developing my original TV series and all that. So it was just, and it was hilarious, because I was so green, I didn't know anything. Like, I was just like, oh, this is kind of cool. But now looking back on it, I'm like, Oh my gosh. What an amazing opportunity, like, people would have killed to be in my position. And I was just kind of like doodling along, like it was no big deal. But now looking back at it, I'm like, Wow, what an amazing, you know, what an amazing blessing and opportunities to just not have been afraid, you know, I just didn't know anything, and I wasn't jaded, so I wasn't afraid to open up my mouth and say, oh, yeah, here's my idea. And I essentially pitched her without knowing I was pitching her. So that's what I always tell people, that they just need to do their pitches. You know, when they pitch, they just need to do their pitches like they're having a conversation. Because whoever they're pitching is just a human being like you and me, all they want is to hear a great story. And I think people get really nervous at the thought of pitching, but you know, the other person listening to your pitch isn't like a unicorn, like they just, you know, they're just a regular human who wants to find great material. And so I just say, hey, the best way to pitch is just having a conversation. You know, that's the best, the best advice I can give on that, because that's how it happened. For me, it didn't even know it that it was happening. So it was great.

Dave Bullis 7:27
It's like what Dan Harmon said about, you know, he gave advice to pitching. And his advice was, have you said, when you ever, when you ever going out there and you tell your friends about some movie, and they go, Oh, should I see that movie? And and you say, yeah. And then your friend says, Well, what happens? Well, okay, let me tell you what happens in the movie. He says that right there is how you should pitch to people. He goes, just telling them about this really cool thing,

Whitney Davis 7:49
Yes. And I think that there's so much pressure these days for you know how to pitch. And I really think there is no you know formula, if you would say, I mean, I think everybody's so individual that I just, I mean, I did great American pitch Fest in May, and I was really amazed, like I sat and probably listened to 150 pitches, and there was a real big difference to the ones who were pitching comfortably and like, knew their story well, as opposed to those who were trying. I felt like to follow a very formulaic pitch that like they're like, like, I'm not doing this. And, you know, I could just tell that they were tied up. And am I giving them the right information in the right in the right sequence, I guess so. Yeah. I mean, that's just something that I really love to talk to people about, is just pitching bravely, like not being afraid to just say what they want to say, and not worrying about a formula or anything like that. So I love it.

Dave Bullis 8:45
So are you still working with that, with the agent or manager?

Whitney Davis 8:49
No, actually, I mean, we are still on great terms, but after the, like I said, after the so we kind of went through the pitching process of pitching my series at the time, and they had married me. For a lot of writers that don't know this, I think that a lot of you know, getting into the TV industry is, or any you know, whether it be feature or film or feature film or TV, is just, like, really understanding the business aspect of being a writer. So, you know, I was like, Oh, I'm gonna sell this pilot, blah, blah, blah, but really it was just, you know, when we went on our general meetings, they just wanted to see what kind of a writer I was and what my personality was, and so I thought I just had all of my expectations, like turned upside down. So anyway, after we pitched it and I didn't, it didn't get bought, but I got hired. We went through that. And then once the once the writer strike happened, and I had the baby, and things were getting crazy, I just, I decided to just go with the script consulting, and we just kind of parted ways amicably. But it was just because I kind of decided not to go back into a writer's room, per se, because it was just more amenable to being a mom doing this script. Consulting thing, and plus, I get so much, satisfaction out of people, out of helping people develop their concepts. Look it really. I really love that. So I think that's why management was a natural segue for me, because there's so much of that in managing someone and helping them, you know, get to the next level and developing their ideas and being a sounding board. So to answer your question, no, I'm not with that agent anymore, but we, you know, it just was a natural kind of break, and we're still on great terms, and I see her every so often, and she's a CAA now, actually, so she even moved since then. But yeah,

Dave Bullis 10:47
So you brought about moving to the next level, you know, as some of the questions as you could see that came in Whitney, I think that's a hot button issue for a lot of people, is moving that next level, you know? And so, spoiler alert for everyone listening, that's some of the, that's some of the questions that have come in. But I but before we get, before we get to that, I just want to ask, you know, Whitney, you know, you have worked under people like Steve Kaplan and Jen grissani, Lee Jessup, by the way, they've all been on the podcast. So how did you end up working, you know, with a lot of these people in the field. Because these are all, you know, well known people. Again, you've worked with Steve Kaplan, Jen Grissani, Lee Jessup, John Truby, Chris Vogler, you know, how did you end up working and meeting with all these people?

Whitney Davis 11:33
You know what? Honestly, I saw some out like, I was just like, if I'm going to do this, and I want to learn, and, you know, learn from the best, and so I just made an effort, you know, to save like, this was kind of in that journey where I was, it was kind of this weird in between period where I was doing the script consulting and was kind of deciding, like, as I personally wanted. I mean, I guess I'm kind of an entrepreneur in that degree, just deciding if I wanted to take my career to the next levels and going into management. And so I just knew who the experts in the field were. And I was just like, You know what? I'm going to go I'm going to find them, I'm going to seek them out and find them and talk to them. And so essentially, I just kind of made, like, a business plan that I was going to save up certain amounts of money and, like, invest in myself to go to their classes and meet them and start relationships with them. And so that, I think, is part of where, why I am where I am today. Because I wasn't afraid, and I was like, I'm going to do whatever it takes to just kind of get, get in front of these people and meet them and talk to them. And so, you know, and then it started being crazy that, like we I mean, it's such a small world, and now that I'm kind of getting into that world with them, like I see them everywhere. Like I was just with Jen in New York. We were doing a conference together, and I see Lee Jessup and like, I'm helping Steve with his comedy class in January. So, I mean, that's how I did it, was I just took the initiative myself and went out was like, I want to be associated with the people who know what they're doing. And I just took the initiative to go find them and to build relationships with them, actually. So that's how it happened. I just wasn't afraid, I guess so. I hope that answers the question.

Dave Bullis 13:18
So, I mean, you know, with the advent of the internet, I think it's made, you know, everything, a little easier and a little harder at the same time. And one of the things that's made a little easier is finding these people. Because, you know, all the people that we just mentioned, they all have websites, yes, and so did you? Did you find them through their websites? Or did you bump into them? Maybe at a conference?

Whitney Davis 13:39
I bumped into them all at conferences. I mean, I knew people in the industry, and I had just been hearing about these people, and so, like, I either attended, I mean, I met them all in person. I made an effort. And again, this is hard if you're not local to LA, because a lot of these people are local to LA, but I made the effort to know go to the conferences, to make sure I went up to them afterwards and spoke to them. And you know, now I really consider them friends and colleagues that I just, I mean, I was truthful. I was like, hey. Like, I want to, I want to learn from you. Like, I want to know what to do. But for people who aren't local to LA, I mean, all these people, Jen Lee, Steve, John Truby, Chris Vogler, Robert McKee, you know, all these people have, I just say, the best thing that you can do is access their information. I mean, they have podcasts. They have, you know, online seminars. They have these things like these people know what it takes to get to the next level. I mean, they are the experts. And I say if you can't meet them in person, like, tweet at them, email them. You know, they do phone consults. I know that Lee does for sure. And like, just stoke up everything you can from them, because they definitely, they definitely know what they're doing. I do consults as well. So I mean, you know, you just, I think you just got to put yourself out there and like, make it known. Like, I always tell the writers I work with, like, make it known within the first five minutes of a conversation that you want to write. Right, and you want to do this, and this is what your goal is, like, I think it's important to speak that step out into the universe, to like, let the world know, because it's like, you don't speak it. How would anybody know it? You know what I mean. So I think there's a lot to making verbal commitments and letting people know that that's your goal, because they can hold you accountable to it and ask, you know? So I think that that's an important aspect of a writing career,

Dave Bullis 15:25
Definitely. And I definitely think also, you know, finding out who you actually want to talk to and zeroing in on those people is really important as well.

Whitney Davis 15:33
And in terms, you know, in terms of, like, I think one of the questions that the guy asked there was a guy that was like, maybe he wasn't local to LA, but he asked about queering. He's, like, is that my only option? Like, I'm not in LA. And like, you know, I always say, even if you can make one trip out to LA and go to, like, one of the big conferences, like great American pitch fest or story Expo, or, like, I know, there's others that are, like, American film market, or any of those things. Like so many people are at those and just even making face to face contact for five minutes and handing them your business card and making a contact, like, that's enough there, then and of itself to, like, send a query, and like, agents and managers show up to these things, like to film festivals and all these things. So I think that a cold query can be a little hard and difficult in terms of taking things to the next level. But I'm just like, man, if you can invest and take one trip out to LA like a year, like it, can do what, and you go to the right event and, you know, make sure you talk to the right people. Like it can radically change the trajectory of your career, absolutely, 100%

Dave Bullis 16:44
You know we were talking about, you know, you your, you went to the management side, you know, of of the business. And I wanted to ask you to Whitney, what are some of the things that you know that have you have seen, and that sort of like is as what I'm trying to say is sort of like a normal thing that you see, like the most common error screenwriters make. Because I was trying to say,

Whitney Davis 17:06
Oh gosh, you know, that's a really tough question, because I think everyone obviously is so individual, but I think that one of the common, common errors that will turn either an agent or a manager off is just the way in which they go about contacting them, actually, like you really need to research the agent or manager that you're trying to talk to. I know that one of the big things among agent and managers often, if you're sending a query letter that you're sending to a lot of different people, a lot of times, like the person sending in either the query for their film or their TV show or their literary novel will spell the agent's name wrong or spell the manager's name wrong. And that is like the number one turn off, like you're not even paying attention to what you're doing, you know. So number one, I think, is just paying attention to detail and showing that you're serious. I think another things that they look for, like, which is crazy, is typos. Like, they'll forgive some but they're just like, if an email is just chock full of typos, they're just like, and these people want to write like, what is this? You know? So I think that those detail oriented things are one of the things. The other thing is it's good to be persistent. Like, I think it's always good to follow up with an agent or manager. But you have to understand that most agents and managers are absolutely drowning in either scripts or books to read, like, drowning all the time, like you're always playing catch up. And so a major turn off is like, if you tell someone, hey, thank you so much for submitting your script or your book. Like, expect, you know, to hear from me in four to six weeks. And you know, an agent, an amateur who really writer who isn't aware of how things operate. They like, you know, they get antsy and they want to know. And I totally understand that, because I've been there. But if they start emailing like, every day, or every two days, which has totally happened. Like, Have you, have you read my Have you read my book? Have you read my script? Have you done this? Have you done that? Like, we're just, like, forget it. Like, if they can't be like, you know, that absolutely tends to drive agents and managers crazy. And they just, you know, they won't respond. Like, they just won't. There's like, if these people can't be patient, like, I'm not, you know, I'm not. So I guess there's like, I guess what I'm saying is, there's a there's a particular like, standard protocol in terms, I guess, as behavior or general manners, that those two minor things can be enough to turn an agent or a manager off. Unfortunately, I think so, those are kind of my two, two big things, I think, of which aren't even, which aren't even material related, which is like a whole other, you know, which is a whole other thing. Yeah, so those are like actionable items that people can look for, like, don't send a query with typos, don't over, you know, bother the agents managers. And then there's the material side of things, in terms of the content they send, which is like a whole different ball game that we could talk about, but I don't know how much time we have

Dave Bullis 20:21
No that sounds great, if you if you have the time, I'd love to get into that

Whitney Davis 20:26
In terms of, like, you know, I think that so, to make this super quick, I think in terms of the content people send, you know, some people, you've got, like, two types of people, and I don't mean this negatively at all, but you've got your people who are just like, My show is great. It's completely original. It's the next blah, blah, blah, which is totally awful to say. People are like, sometimes they're like, I'm the next JK Rowling, or I'm the next Quentin Tarantino. It's like, don't, you know, they'll say that. And there are things it's like, do not compare yourself to the greatest you know, people out there. That's just a no no. But in terms of, like, the material, like, I think a lot of it is people just they want to be a writer. And I just tell people, like, sometimes people come to me and they want to be managed, and I'm like, Well, okay, let me see what you have. And really it comes to an aspect of, like, Are these people ready to be is there material ready to be shopped? And the things that I look for to make sure that a material, you know, that a that a either a script or a TV show or a novel, is ready to be shot. It's like, is the story structure there? Like, because a lot of times it's like, they don't even have, like, I'll read through it and like, key components of what makes a story, a story are missing. Like, there's no catalyst. It's like, what's the inciting incident in this story? Or, you know, there is no all is lost, moment where the character really comes to this deep, dark place where they have to rise back to the top again. You know, that's missing. It's like, I, you know, there's nothing I can't manage that now, on my consulting developmental side, like, Yes, that's what I'll work with you to fix. But in terms of, you know, are you ready? A lot of another thing that will kill, you know, a story or something like that, is really stilted dialog. Unfortunately, dialog is one of the hardest things to write, and when you're reading through a script, if it's really stilted or unnatural, that's something that will turn an agent or a manager off when they're skimming through and reading. So, you know, those are the things that I think you really have to pay attention to. And that's why these people like Vogler and Grisanti and John Truby are absolutely, like, amazing, like, Robert McKee just put a buzz out on dialog, and I read it. And I mean, this is my business, and I, like, consider myself, like, pretty high up there. Not Robert McKee standard, but like, you know, I know how to write dialog, and I read the book, and I was, like, blown away. I mean, it's just so good to be reminded of this stuff. And I think people sometimes think that writing dialog should be an innate ability, like we all talk, so we all should be able to write that, but when you translate that to a script or to a book, it just, you know, it's hard. And so I think people the best thing that they can do for themselves is just practice daily read up on, you know, techniques and ideas from the experts, and just don't give up because that, and just keep working. And I think that that's like the best thing that you can do. And have it. Someone read it before you send it to an agent or manager, like, have it covered, or have Jen Grisanti or Lee or me, or someone you know, take a look at it, because that really helps to have someone in industry that knows what is people want know what's out there to, like, make sure you're on the right track. I mean, I feed, I think feedback can be invaluable if you get it from the right, from the right source.

Dave Bullis 23:43
And you know, when you, I think a lot of times too, you know, when you send a script to a agent or a manager, usually it's going to go to their assistant, right? You know, it's going to have their assistant read it. And I think sometimes those assistants, you know, can this get easily? And I've heard different things. Sometimes they say they can easily just chuck your script, meaning if by the first page they can, they can see if. So, okay, so that is right.

Whitney Davis 24:11
Oh yeah, no. Well, you know what's the crazy thing is now for someone like me, because I am a small boutique management firm, like it is me and one other persons I'm obviously not. Circle is confusion. I'm not, you know, mad house, you know. I'm not, you know. CAA, I'm not one of these big things. So I actually read the scripts myself. But what is true is this, and this is the truth people, for you, for those of you listening, the sad thing is this, it's like if you're at one of those big houses and this is the problem, if an assistant or a reader reads a script and gives it a consider, or, you know, you know, pushes it on to their boss. You know, they spend, you know, the assistant spends all weekend reading, and if they say consider or that they're going to. Send it on to their boss. That means their boss, the manager itself, is going to take time out of their day or their weekend to read it, and if it sucks or it's awful, and their assistant passed it on, guess what happens to that assistant? They're gone. They're fired. And so honestly, assistants, unless it is just absolutely cream of the crop. Amazing. What the sad reality is is assistants are assistants are scared to pass it on, unless they can just absolutely tell it's amazing, because they're afraid of their job. And I hope I don't get in trouble for saying this, like I know this. This is true and on certain levels, at bigger at bigger firms, so you just have to be. So what I guess it's to say is, like, it's just that's how it is, unfortunately, and so for me, though, like being a small manager, like, I'm willing to take risks on certain people and develop people, and that's why I think the cold query is a really scary thing, because managers and agents oftentimes it isn't always about the content that the writer has. It's about the writer themselves, like they want to see, like I have spidey senses. It's really weird, like I can sit down with a person and usually know within less than five minutes if I'm going to work with them or not just based on their personality. So that's why I tell people, if you can get in front of agents and managers, your chances skyrocket, absolutely skyrocket, because they're going to be working with you. And so even though your content may not be the best if they can tell that you are a go getter and a talented person, they're probably going to be more willing to take a chance on you. And so that's why it's just downright scary to send something in cold like CAA, Gersh, Chris circles, any of those big boys, just because that's how the ball rolls. So but again, if you can meet those agents or managers that work at those places at like industry events, then you're in a better, a much, much better scenario,

Dave Bullis 27:02
You know, because, you know, it's like, I've had people in here before, and they would say, you know, getting a manager, getting an agent, or even a manager more so than an agent, but it's about a relationship, because you're gonna have to be working that for that person for for months or years to come.

Whitney Davis 27:16
I always say it is totally like a marriage. And you know what the crazy thing is, is I've talked to people before where I've been meeting them, kind of seeing if we're going to work together. And I've even had to be like, Look, it's not even about your content. Like, because honestly, I feel like, I feel like every agent and every manager kind of has, like, their specialty or their niche where they feel most comfortable. And so like mine at the current moment, is television like, I feel like I have much more connections and much more understanding of the TV world than I do of the film world. But do I know producers and people in the film world? Yes, but I just don't feel as comfortable in that space. So when someone comes to me and they ask me what I consider managing, but all they have is features. Like, I sit there and I'm like, Look, I'm just gonna shoot straight with you, like, your stuff is great, but honestly, I just may not be the right manager for you, only because I don't think I'm going to be able that I have what it you know, that I have the contacts to shop you in the right in the right places, and I don't want to do a disservice to you knowing that I probably am not going to be the best fit, so I'm just boss system and say, like, look, it's nothing about your your ability or your talent. Like, I just can tell that we're not going to be a good fit. Or, like, I've told several people, like, you're great, but I'm just not passionate about this particular project. And to work together like you guys, you have to be in tandem like you have to be on the same page. You have to have a manager that's going to absolutely fight for you and advocate for you 100% and so I just, you know, I sometimes feel like it's just, it really is. It's like a weird form of dating in a way, like you really just have to make sure that you click and that you gel together, because you really are in this weird riding marriage, you know? So I think that that's been an interesting thing. I've learned that I've turned people down who are really talented. I just know that I'm not the best fit for them. So it's hard. It's really hard.

Dave Bullis 29:17
Well, you know, that actually ties in with some of the questions that we got Whitney, and we actually had a pretty good amount of questions come in. You know, if you don't mind, would you? Would you mind answering a few questions right now? Sure, absolutely, you know, actually just talking with what you just said. The first question is, do I need more than one script to approach a manager?

Whitney Davis 29:40
Yes, absolutely you do. Generally speaking, when you come to a manager. Lee Jessup, this is one of the main nuggets that i. Learned from her back in the day. You really need what's called a writer's portfolio. And so generally, what that entails is you really need to have, even if you're not a TV person, this is generally, across the board, just what a screenwriter needs to have. You need to have a really strong TV pilot. You need to have a really strong spec pilot for something currently or not spec pilot, but spec script for something currently on air. So I tell people, you know, look, get watch television. Kind of pick your top 10, what I call a hit list of TV shows you'd really love to write for. Then kind of knowing what your talent is, narrow that down to like five, and then pick one of them and do a really good spec. Because, you know, people at the networks and people you know at the production companies want to see that you can mimic the tone and style of someone else's work. And even at the studios for features, because you know that they do work for hire, for rewrites all the time for movies, but they want to keep it in kind of that same tone. So the they want to see that you can somewhat do that, and then also have a really, really strong feature. And if you have more than that, then that's great, but three is kind of the minimum. And then, you know, people coming to me being like, well, I have five features and three, you know, three TV pilots. What do I do? And I'm like, Well, you probably have a pretty good indication in your gut which ones are your this, you know, are the strongest. Like you need to take those, really, you know, read through them again, polish them, rewrite them, and then use those to send out kind of as your portfolio. So absolutely, definitely more than one, definitely one TV pilot, one spec pilot for something currently on air in any form, like network, premium cable or streaming, and then a really strong original feature that you've written.

Dave Bullis 31:53
And also Whitney, I think we I should probably mention two. And maybe I should have asked you this question before, but you know, would you briefly just describe, you know, the difference between a manager and an agent? Because, you know, I sometimes think writers, you know, they always have an obsession about getting an agent, when really they should probably get a manager correct?

Whitney Davis 32:13
Yes, absolutely. So for those of you listening, if you want, you can go to my website. I actually just did a four part series on representation, 101, explaining all of this, but to really do a short recap, so an agent is licensed by the state to negotiate and execute the sale of your work. So they come in when their business to be done. So they are the ones to do that, and they usually take 10% and so they really don't do they may read your scripts, but they aren't. They don't have the time, and aren't going to take the time to, like, read it, give notes, all of that. Agents generally tend to have anywhere from 30 to 50 clients on their roster, depending on where they are in the life of their kind of career. So they can take on a lot more people, because they literally are just doing the business side. The one thing also you need to know is the agents are not legally allowed to produce anything. Their only job is executing and negotiating the contract for the sale. On the flip side, the manager is not allowed to, quote, unquote, procure employment for their client. They're not allowed to like, quote, unquote, get you a job, like doing anything per se, but they can help you sell individual scripts, but they cannot like, be the ones. Again, that's the agent's role. So what the manager does is the manager really is all about developing your career. They are the ones that usually go about helping you network and get meetings, like I just had a meeting with HBO and Hallmark a few weeks ago, and Netflix is up on the thing. They're the ones who are going to really organize and schedule those meetings for you and get you in the door a lot of times now, what's different, though, is a manager can produce which in some senses, is good, because your manager is way more invested in that sense. So they also take 10% of whatever happens generally, because they're the ones doing the heavy lifting and the footwork of, like, helping you develop your concepts and reading and giving you notes and, like, really involved in the day to day. So yes, at the beginning of your career, if you can snag a manager, like, that's probably one of the best things you can do. And a lot of people don't even have agents, they can in lieu of an agent, they can just use an entertainment lawyer, which is just the same an entertainment attorney, which is just the same thing. But what's great with an agent, I'll say this caveat, which great with an agent. If you have an agent at CAA or one of the bigger firms, what's great is if they. Have someone else in their agency, like actresses and directors and all that. The great thing is they can package, you know, material, and that will help. So it's like, if you have your script, but then they have actresses, A, B and C at their firm that are wanting to attach, and then they also have this director, and then they can take it as one big package that definitely, you know, incentivizes the sale. So those are the two big things. Agents licensed by the state, negotiate, execute the contracts. Manager is not allowed to do that, but they can produce in there, the day to day development, getting you meetings, helping you network, helping you brand yourself, helping you write, just kind of grooming you for your career. So that's the short explanation. I hope that helps.

Dave Bullis 35:53
Yeah, I that helped a lot, you know. And that's great information, especially about packaging too. You know that that's something also I hear, you know, people will always, will always talk about that. And, you know, I think a lot of times people sort of misconstrued that. And I think it's almost like the whole age manager thing,

Whitney Davis 36:11
Yeah, and it can happen on the management side. I mean, I guess if it your management firm, but it's, I feel like, I hope that's right. Now I'm kind of second guessing myself. I've heard it happening more on the agency sides in the management side that say package, but probably someone's gonna like write in and say I'm wrong. So who I'll I'll put that as a caveat that I'm not exactly sure, but in my brain at the moment, that's what it's telling me, but I may be wrong, so sorry if that's wrong information I'll have to check. But I'm pretty sure it's more on the agency side than the management side is that they do that.

Dave Bullis 36:45
If anybody writes in, I'll just send it to you, Whitney, I'll be like, listen, Whitney, this guy's

Whitney Davis 36:48
Sorry people. I'll buy you a coffee. I mean, I don't know what to say. So, so, yeah, so that's the differences between agents and managers. So, yeah, I think management, that's the spot. I mean, I love it. I just think, I just love being a part of the it's a sickness, really loving, not loving, to be a part of the process so much. People are like, every day is so funny. I'm just like, why do I do this? And then, like, when, like, a breakthrough happens, I'm like, Yes, this is the best. I mean, it's just like, it, it's such a crazy, crazy, crazy existence. So,

Dave Bullis 37:22
Yeah, it's like the plateaus and the hills. You know what I mean? It's like the you get the highest of highs and lows.

Whitney Davis 37:29
But the thing is, you know, and that's why, you know, I guess, that some of people could look on it as being shady, even though I don't think it's shady. That's I haven't given up the consulting side of my business. Can you people come to me and they're like, I want to be managed. I know that they're just not there yet. So I offer consulting services. And I always say, you know, if you don't want to stay with me, because, you know, you think that's odd, like, I'm totally willing to, you know, send people to several of my different colleagues. But like, the consulting side is just that I love so much too, because I love the people that are that need the expertise of an industry, X, you know, you know, an industry like expert or whatever, and I love being that person to help teach them and all that. So it's kind of a, it's kind of a crazy, crazy thing, but I love doing both halves, so I feel like I can get away with it because my management, you know, cluster is so small at the moment that I still can help the people that are the up and coming, aspiring writers. So I really, I really still enjoy doing that so much too.

Dave Bullis 38:35
Yeah, I can tell, you know, you really enjoy doing it. And I mean, you know, it's, it's needed, you know, it's, you have to have people that really enjoy this, actually out there doing it. And, you know,

Whitney Davis 38:46
I love it. I love it so much. And I think some people get really jaded and it gets tiresome. But I just, I just find it all so fascinating, like the way that the human mind works and the things that people can come up with. I'm just like, I mean, I just like, visibly, like, I mean, people laugh at me because my face just lights up. I'm like, Oh my gosh, look. I'm just, I'm like, even now I'm thinking of some of the stuff that some of my consulting clients are pitching at Austin, and I'm just like, I cannot wait for them to pitch it, because I just get so excited for them because the ideas are so freaking, you know, amazing. So we'll just, we'll just see it's a fun, exciting world. I

Dave Bullis 39:21
actually have a few other questions I I'm gonna try to answer, or I'm sorry to try to ask these last two so Whitney, this is by at Joe screenwriter. And Joe asked, What are some of your thoughts on the query letter? As a Hollywood outsider with zero contacts, it seems like my only shot.

Whitney Davis 39:41
Yeah, and so I feel like I kind of addressed this a little bit earlier, but I'll expand on it. So the query is a really tough thing, like to him, I would specifically say, if you're in Hollywood outsider and you don't live in LA, I would really just make sure there is a process to the query. So I would make sure and there's like an actual format to a query letter for film and TV. So I would look up or buy a book on how to specifically query your book or your film or your TV show second, if there's a specific place that you know that you want to send it, like I would research those agencies or those firms and check their submission requirements, because oftentimes certain places are closed to unsolicited queries and it's referral only, so you need to check and make sure that they're open to unsolicited queries. And yeah, for someone who doesn't live in LA, that may be your only shot. But like I said, it is not super expensive to get to La these days, I feel like, and it's just like, if you can save up and come to one event or one kind of industry thing it can and again, I would probably say great American pitch fest, something like that is like one of the best things that you can invest in, because you can get in front of, like 100 management companies and producers who you can pitch to. And, you know, it's just, it can change. It can change your life, like honestly. So in terms of a query, there's nothing wrong with them. I take unsolicited queries you can submit through my website. I know that a few others take unsolicited queries like maybe circle of confusion, but you know, the other thing I would do, honestly for a person like that is reach out to people on Twitter and ask if they have managers or agents. And like, if you can get a referral, like, if you can send it to a this is another way in which is a good point. If you can find another writer who's currently represented, and you send them their your query first and have them look it over, and if they like it, they may be willing to pass it on to their agent or manager, and that's a way that it's not unsolicited anymore. So you feel like you have to find these backdoor ways in. So if he can find someone on Twitter or Facebook or LinkedIn that's currently a writer and currently reps like that, might be a great way to go, too, if he can't get to LA,

Dave Bullis 42:17
You know, that's a great point. Whitney, you know, Twitter is a phenomenal tool, and I use it all the time. I've always talked about the great uses of Twitter, because almost everyone now is on Twitter.

Whitney Davis 42:26
Oh, I mean, Twitter is absolutely amazing. Like, it's crazy to me. Like, about how many like, people I've met on Twitter. Like, I've gotten a few clients off of Twitter. I mean, it is insane. And I think to the screenwriting world, it really is the best social media platform for connecting. For sure, is Twitter, honestly, I think it's way, I think it is the top one honestly. So that's what I would say, is like cold query, make sure that they take submissions, if not come to an event, and if not find another writer who is rept and see if they'll look at your stuff and check it out, or several of the the last one is several of, if you can afford to hire one of the consultants, they all, I mean, we all know people, and so if they come across something that's really amazing, like they aren't, they will be willing to pass it on as well. So, I mean, I think, and the other thing is contests, like, if you enter a contest, and you place in a contest, all those lists go to agents and managers the people that place. So that's another way to break in, for sure. And so that may be easier than querying. Honestly, it's just, you know, applying for a, you know, entering into one of the many, many contests out there.

Dave Bullis 43:37
Yeah, you know, that's something I've heard before too, is they want to see what your your writing is, can do up against other people's writing. And, you know, I've heard that where they want to see, you know, hey, why aren't they, these people going in this competition, you know? Why aren't they, you know, doing something, going, why aren't they going that route?

Whitney Davis 43:53
That's a good idea. That's another good way, if you're not in Hollywood, because I know they takes, you know, they it doesn't matter where you live, you can always enter those contests for sure.

Dave Bullis 44:04
So, Whitney, you know, we've been talking for about, you know, 40 minutes now. So in closing, is there anything that we didn't get a chance to discuss that you may have wanted to or sort of, you know, anything you wanted to say to put a period in this whole conversation?

Whitney Davis 44:17
No, I mean, I just, I think that I want to tell people that truly, if they set their minds out to do it, it's amazing that if they just keep at it, keep meeting people, keep writing, things can happen for you. The two things I say, the 2p of writing are patience and persistence. So I think it just really is a journey. And if you're patient yet persistent and just keep at it, you know, I truly believe things will happen for people, and I think it really is half relationships, half who you know, and half you know craft and how well you write. So I just always tell people, always be nice to everybody you know you meet. Make an effort to be friends with them. Be. On just wanting to sell, you know, sell them or pitch them your idea, and just continue to really practice the craft of writing, and write because you love it, not because you want to make money off of it. I mean, I think some people, you know, can make money off of it, and that's great, but it's just like, right, because you love it, and that's what you really want to do. And I think the money will come if you go, you know, look at it as a business and go about the right way of approaching it. So those are just, kind of my last few nuggets of advice and encouragement. Just keep at it. Just patience and persistence is the key, and being nice to people, and it'll all, you know, hopefully fall into place. So,

Dave Bullis 45:44
Yeah, I like that last part to be nice to people, because they're, you know, even on Twitter, Whitney, and I'm sure you get this all the time, I get a lot of people who immediately follow me, or they'll send me an email to my website, and right away they're asking something from me, like, Hey, Dave, can you retweet this? Can you can you do this? I'm like, I don't even know who you are. I don't even know what the movie is like, why don't you?

Whitney Davis 46:05
Yeah, and I'm telling you, I in that. What I really appreciate is even the writers that I know want something, but they actually just, like, ask me out for coffee. And like, we go to coffee and just get to know each other before they make you know a certain ask or whatever. I mean, it really is about just getting to know other writers and building those relationships, and you know, just acknowledging their successes before you start asking favors of them. I just think there's so much power in acknowledging success just to be like Dave, you like, do a great job at podcasting like, thank you so much for the for what you put out there in the Twitter universe and social media at large, and start that conversation that way. And then maybe after a few days, like, you know, it's been so great talking to you. I was just curious if, you know, maybe we could do x, y and v together, and like, have something to offer back to them. Like, if you like, I said, like, if you're gonna offer to, like, reach, you know, ask somebody to do this, be like, hey, in return, I'm more than happy to do X, Y and Z for you in the future. Like, see if you can barter something like that. Makes it a lot, a lot, a lot more acceptable to me that people would be willing if they know that you're also willing to give on your end. So I think it's a, definitely a give and take. And the writing community is such a great place. I just love it so much. So, I mean, that's what I always say, be nice to people, the first rule of everything it will it will come back around in a great, great way, if you can do that.

Dave Bullis 47:34
You know that that's excellent advice. Whitney, Whitney, where can people find you out online?

Whitney Davis 47:38
They can find me at whitneydavisliterary.com and then they can find me across all social media at W davisliterary.com I mean, well, at W Davis literary, yeah, the handle on Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn and everywhere else,

Dave Bullis 47:55
I guess, yeah, and everyone I'm going to link to that in the show notes, Whitney Davis, I want to say thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Whitney Davis 48:11
Thank you for having me. It was an absolute blast.

Dave Bullis 48:14
Oh, I'm I'm glad you had fun, because this is your first podcast. I'm glad you know you had fun on

Whitney Davis 48:20
Yes, it was amazing. Thank you.

Dave Bullis 48:24
Anytime. Best of luck, Whitney. And you know, if you ever want to come back on the show, please just let me know. I'd be more than happy to have you back on

Whitney Davis 48:31
I would love it. We'll have to figure something else to something else to talk about, but for sure,

Dave Bullis 48:36
Oh, there's so much we could talk about, aren't

Whitney Davis 48:38
We just do networking. I love talking about networking for writers. It's like one of my favorites. We should do that.

Dave Bullis 48:45
Oh, that sounds good, because I usually get asked about how I how I network when I go on other people's podcasts.

Whitney Davis 48:50
So we should do it. It'll be fun.

Dave Bullis 48:52
Yeah, we could do like, a dual networking, pretty cool.

Whitney Davis 49:27
Let's do it. I'm down.

Dave Bullis 49:31
Whitney, thanks so much.

Whitney Davis 49:35
Okay, thank you.

Dave Bullis 49:37
Anytime, take care. Bye. Bye!

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BPS 437: No Budget, All Hustle: The Filmmaking Grind of Staci Layne Wilson

September 18, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

There’s a peculiar thrill in watching a life unfold like a vintage film reel, colored with grit, glamour, and the groan of old rock records spinning in a smoky LA loft. On today’s episode, we welcome the multifaceted Staci Layne Wilson, a writer, filmmaker, and daughter of two celebrity parents whose life reads like a gothic Hollywood novella.

Staci Layne Wilson is an award-winning filmmaker, entertainment journalist, and author of the bestselling memoir So L.A.: A Hollywood Memoir, whose life experiences swirl together like a psychedelic dream on celluloid.

Born in Los Angeles and still a proud inhabitant, Staci’s story is a rare alchemy of nature and nurture. Her father, Don Wilson of the legendary instrumental band The Ventures, and her mother, a former pin-up model, gave her both the genes and the stage for a life draped in creative expression. Yet, as she shares, it wasn’t a direct shot into filmmaking. In fact, it was horseback riding—not film reels—that captivated her childhood heart. “Horses were my best friends,” she recalls, describing the grounding experience of caring for animals in a city defined by illusion. It’s in this juxtaposition—hoofbeats against Hollywood glitz—that her authentic voice begins to emerge.

Her path into film was, as with many worthwhile things, a beautiful accident. A writer of horror novels, she was tapped by film publications to review movies, eventually shifting from reviewing to making them. Her first film—an Edgar Allan Poe-inspired short—emerged from this new cinematic hunger, and she was hooked. There’s an almost Taoist rhythm to how she describes this evolution, not as ambition but as an organic unfolding: “It wasn’t something I woke up and decided to do. It just seemed like a natural evolution.”

Working with a tight network of artists she knew from her journalism days, she crafted films with minimal budgets but maximum creativity. Shot in five days, her features are pulpy, energetic, and unapologetically raw. She calls it a “Roger Corman style” of filmmaking—a nod to the late-night, grindhouse roots of LA’s indie scene. But beneath the kitsch and blood-splatter lies a real artistry. “To me, style in cinema speaks volumes,” she says, and it’s clear that for her, visual storytelling is a sacred language.

Her latest short, Psychotherapy, co-created with actress Brooke Lewis, dives into the psychological thriller realm with all the visual flair of De Palma’s Dressed to Kill. It’s won awards and caught fire on the festival circuit. But filmmaking is just one of her many brushes. Her memoir, So L.A., is an irreverent, heartfelt recollection of growing up amidst rock stars, alcoholic monkeys (yes, really), and the occasional trip to the Playboy Mansion. Staci writes about her parents with compassion and candor, peeling back the layers of celebrity mythos to reveal flawed, fascinating humans. “They don’t care who your parents are,” she says, speaking of horses—but the same seems true of her worldview. Fame is incidental. Truth is what matters.

As we sip from the many cups Staci offers—journalism, directing, memoir-writing—we begin to see a life lived not for the applause, but for the art. Whether she’s reminiscing about fake IDs at the Rainbow Bar and Grill or planning her next big swing: a long-overdue documentary on The Ventures, her father’s iconic band—she’s driven by curiosity, creativity, and, above all, confidence.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:00
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 0:08
On this week's edition of the podcast, I have a really cool guest and award winning filmmaker TV host and Amazon number one best seller for her book. So LA, a Hollywood memoir. We're going to talk about all the good stuff, dead central hosting shows the BBC, how she got all these really cool gigs growing up in LA, surrounded by celebrities, with two celebrity parents, all that much, much more. And with guest Staci Layne Wilson, who have a very interesting background, and you have a very interesting sort of way you've got into the film industry. You were basically, you know, you were born into the into this industry, because you have, you wrote a book, so LA, a Hollywood memoir, uncensored Tales by the rock star and pin up model. And you talk about, obviously, and like you say in your bio, you are a unicorn, because not only were you born and raised in LA, you're still in LA. So, so you know being, you know being born in LA, do you feel that you were just, basically, you had, you felt compelled, or maybe even sort of, sort of like, driven to go into the film industry.

Staci Layne Wilson 3:03
You know, not necessarily, and it didn't happen until fairly late in my life. But I feel like there is a lot to the argument of nature versus nurture, but I got on both counts, nature and nurture in the creative world. So I'm just a creative person, and that's how my mind works. So I do feel I was predisposed to doing something in, not necessarily the industry, quote, unquote, but just doing things that are more creative than technical, say, or mathematical. That's just not my thing. And my parents are both the same, so I feel like that. I just inherited sort of that predisposition to be a storyteller. My dad is a storyteller through his music, my mother through her writing. So I feel like that's just why I am what I am.

Dave Bullis 3:56
So when you were sort of growing up, you know, and I imagine you know, obviously, growing up in that area, did you see like, a lot? Did you go to school? Or maybe even, know, like, famous people, like, did you go, like, hang around famous people? Or maybe, were they coming by the house? The reason I bring that up Stacy is I actually had a guest on the show, and he actually, when he was younger, he celebrities were calling the house, and they used to call him on the landline phone, and he he would answer, and he'd go, why is Mo from the Three Stooges calling me or calling my dad? I mean, you know why? You know. So did you have anything like that?

Staci Layne Wilson 4:31
Well, apparently I don't remember it, because I was quite young, but my mother actually had an illicit affair with Bobby Kennedy, and so he would call and come over, and, you know, apparently we had conversations, but I was only, I was like two when he died, so I don't remember much about that, but apparently I could hold my own in a conversation with Bobby Kennedy. And then my mom was also friends with Alan Sherman, who was he. A singer songwriter, kind of the novelty, comedic songs. He put out albums, you know, when that kind of thing was popular. One of his songs was, hello Bada, hello Fauci. You know, some kind of thing about the camp. I don't know the whole thing, but so he and I were apparently friends, and I don't remember that either. But as I got a little bit older, I did talk to some of my dad's friends like I do remember that Glen Campbell was his neighbor up the street in Sherman Oaks, California. So my father, being a musician, knew a lot of the really great singer songwriters of the era, so I remember talking to them to some degree. But when I was a little kid, I was really, really interested in horses and horseback riding. So that was kind of horses were my best friends, really.

Dave Bullis 5:51
So, so did you when, when you were a little kid and we were around horses, did you actually want to like, maybe go into the inquest drawing, or maybe become like a actual like, something to do with horses, more than anything else

Staci Layne Wilson 6:03
I did to some degree. But then I looked at my bank account, I was like, oh, wait a minute, this isn't a good idea. But no, when I was a little kid, I was definitely really, really into it. I showed horses, and in fact, one of my main competitors when I was showing ponies was Herve village as who was tattoo on the Fantasy Island TV show. He had ponies being of diminutive stature, I suppose that's why, but so so I used to show and really was into training horses for a long time in my life. And I actually did start out with that sort of as business goal, and I did it for quite a few years, but it just really is a drain on the old bank account. And as much as I love horses, I eventually had to say goodbye to them, and I still love horses, but I just don't own them anymore. And but it was a really great sort of a juxtaposition for me as as a young girl growing up in Los Angeles, with my parents being who they are, that I was able to have that outdoor life and to really be brought down to earth, so to speak, working with horses, because they don't care who your parents are, who you are. They just care that you're going to treat them well, and that you're going to, you know, be a good person, and that's really important when it comes to working with animals and training courses, and I feel like that has filtered out into my everyday life, and talking to people and being in business and being a writer and all those things really gave me a great foundation as a kid.

Dave Bullis 7:38
So when you mentioned they don't care who your parents are. Did did any did you ever find out, like when growing up, or even when you're in your teenage years, you know? Did anyone ever, you know, it's almost like, hey, could I ever, you know, get to do something with your dad, or, Hey, could I ever get to do something with your mom? Did you ever experience that growing up?

Staci Layne Wilson 7:55
To a degree. I mean, my mom is not, you know, what you'd say is famous, but she was a pin up model back in the day, and it was kind of funny. You know, when you're growing up and you're especially those awkward early teenage years where you really don't want to stand out or be different. So, you know, people looking at my mom's center folds or whatever, my friends, it was kind of funny and awkward, but, but it was also cool. And as far as my father goes, he is Don Wilson, the guitarist for the ventures, and that is the number one selling instrumental band of all time. They did songs like Hawaii, 5o and pipeline and wipe out and whatnot. So, you know, back in the early 80s, late 70s, early 80s. As I was teenage girl growing up, a lot of the guys in school knew who the ventures were, because they were learning how to play guitar and whatnot. But personally, I was very much into harder rock like Led Zeppelin and The Rolling Stones and groups like that. So to me, like the ventures were not exactly uncool, but not exactly, you know, my cup of tea as far as music went. So it was kind of funny to hear my friends say how much, you know, they really loved the ventures. I was like, Really, my dad's famous. I didn't really see that.

Dave Bullis 9:14
Yeah, it's one of those things. Like I was saying that the guy I had on the podcast, who, whose father was, was, that was an entertainment lawyer, and he would say, you know, why are all these people calling the house? And he was kept saying, Dad, you know, what is going on here? And just stuff like that. It's just so interesting, you know. And growing up, and your your parent, your parents are, you know, in demands or or people want to meet them, and it's, you know, when you're younger, you're like, Why? Why do all these people want to come meet my parents? What is going on here?

Staci Layne Wilson 9:45
Right! Yeah, I mean, it's hard to have perspective on your parents when you're that young. Of course, now I do, and especially having written my book, it's given me a lot of great, you know, like, I say perspective of years and to really appreciate their talents. But you know, to me, they still are just my parents.

Dave Bullis 10:15
So Stacy, when you were growing up, you know, you mentioned that you got bit by the sort of filmmaking bug a little later in life, so we don't around you know, what age were you when you finally decided that you wanted to sort of go into the to the film industry?

Staci Layne Wilson 10:31
Well, I actually started off as an entertainment reporter, and I fell into that more or less through writing horror novels. I was approached by a couple of horror websites like horror.com and cine fantastique magazine had also approached me to see if I wanted to be an LA correspondent, to write movie reviews. And it really wasn't anything that I had endeavored to do, although I always liked movies, and I found out that I really had an aptitude for it, and so here we are, like, you know, 16 years later, I got it started in 2001 and so I'm still doing that, still reviewing films and still interviewing actors, while also pursuing my own career as a filmmaker. And that actually started just through being inspired by an Edgar Allan Poe poem in 2010 I believe that was the first, yeah, that's my first foray into filmmaking. Was in 2010 with a short film, a triptych of three short films based on Annabel Lee. And I just knew actors through my other career as a as a film journalist, and so that's how that all just kind of came together pretty organically. It wasn't something that one day I woke up and said, I'm going to be a filmmaker. So it just seemed like a natural evolution from what I had been doing, and the fact that I did write fiction before in the 90s, those two things, the the marrying of storytelling and technology and then a basis of knowledge in film, is really what I feel led to, led to it. And so since then, I've made several short films and also wrote and directed to feature films. And it's still a part time thing for me, although I do enjoy it, writing is still my number one love.

Dave Bullis 12:31
So do you write your, you know, your own scripts that you go on to direct and maybe even produce?

Staci Layne Wilson 12:38
Yes, I do. I actually though my two feature films which were produced by blanc bean productions, which is Michael Bean, the actor and his wife, Jennifer Blanc, and they're both actors, but they both got in, started a production company, and the two films that I wrote were based on ideas from one of their partners who gave me sort of the skeleton of an idea, and I was predisposed already to liking the subject matter of both films. So it worked out really well, because it almost feels like they're my creations, but really they are based on stories by lonely room and who's one of their producing partners, and then, so I wrote the scripts to, you know, specific locations in a specific budget, and then was given the wonderful opportunity to direct them. And it was really, you know, a great experience. They are super, you know, run and gun, Roger Corman style, grind healthy sort of movie. So we actually shot both features at five days each. So you know, basically 512 hour days, shooting about 17 pages a day. And I think it was really a great sort of introduction into directing features for me, because it was really challenging, but in a fun way. So I think now that I've done this, I can do just about anything. So it's really a great confidence builder, too.

Dave Bullis 14:11
It's funny, you actually bring them up. I actually helped. I actually helped them with a Kickstarter they were doing. I think it was the night visitor. I think, yeah,

Staci Layne Wilson 14:21
Yeah, yeah, I know that. Yeah. They've actually done a couple of sequels to that now, since,

Dave Bullis 14:26
Really, because I actually, yeah, that's, it's a small world, I tell you, Stacy doing this podcast. It's a smaller, smaller world. That's good. So, so when you first started, you know, you know, wanting to do movies, I am, you mentioned you didn't just wake up one day. Want to become a filmmaker. You know, it's, it's kind of, I feel that most people who want to make a movie, or, you know, even go into this industry, they usually have almost like this, almost like a predisposition in. To it. It's almost like they have, like, this itch that they just need to scratch. And you know, when they go to make a movie, it's always one of two things that I that I found it's either that they do the running gun style, it's where it's like, no, no, I'm sorry. Let me take that back. They either do one of two things. They do the they do, like, no planning at all, or they plan this thing so much that becomes analysis through paralysis, and they don't do anyway, and they never get to film it. So it's one of those two things. So, but we once you start getting into it more and more, you start building a team. You start building a whole like network. Now I think your story is different, because I think you had a better network going into it because, again, you're in LA, you're doing, you making all these connections. You're you're reviewing movies as you're a movie reporter. So when you went to Make Your First Movie, you know, do you feel that you already had a better footing or a better understanding than than maybe the average filmmaker?

Staci Layne Wilson 15:59
Well, that is probably on a you know, case by case basis, like you say, everyone brings their own measure of talent and their own sort of life experience into creating something as ephemeral, really, as a film. Even though a film, you know, does last forever, it's still when it's coming together. It's kind of an alchemy. So each person brings their own thing into it. So we're all unique, but I do feel really fortunate that I know the great, talented people that I do know. And in Los Angeles there is, you know, obviously a greater concentration of choices you know, people that you know, and also just through being an entertainment reporter and knowing these people on a different level, I really kind of already knew what their work ethic would be and what their sensibilities are. And so when bringing together, say, you know my first cast for my short film, the star of that who's sort of our Edgar Allan Poe character is ogre from skinny puppy, and I had met him through being an entertainment reporter when I covered his feature musical film called repo, the genetic opera, which is directed by Darren Bausman. So we already had sort of a connection and a rapport, and I knew the things that he liked, and he knew the things that I liked. So there is a good shorthand there, which you really need when you're working on a low budget or a no budget film, because you don't really have time to get acquainted with someone. You kind of have to dive in and and already know what you're dealing with. So having a pool of people like that already and just being friends, I think really helps. So I would say yes, that's the long answer to your short question.

Dave Bullis 17:46
No, no, I completely understand. Stacey. I tend to ask very open ended questions, you know, just to sort of get a good response, you know, a longer response. And I always think that's a good thing. And I just want to follow it up by asking, when you made your first film, what were some of the biggest takeaways for you that you put into your next film?

Staci Layne Wilson 18:10
Well, I actually, although I'm known in the horror and genre world, and Edgar Allan Poe certainly is horror, but I also feel like it's an arty sensibility where you can really stretch the imagination and interpret the subject matter as you like. So my next film after that was also very experimental and having the basis of shooting the key to annabelli, which is my first short film, I really felt freed up to be even more artistic and experimental. My next film was called the night plays tricks, which is based on a Bob Dylan song called visions of Johanna, and it's almost Maya Darren esque. If you've seen meshes of the afternoon. You know, it's kind of like that. So I really felt confident that I could express myself in a sort of slightly opaque artistic way and yet still get a story across. And having a good editor really helps with that. And my editor and DP on that second film is Justin Cruz, and so it's really nice having a DP who can also edit, which is also the case with my very latest, most recent short film. So I feel like the DP is kind of editing in his mind as he's shooting. And having that artistic sensibility like I have is really makes for a great collaboration. So that is what sort of spurred me on to continue making films, was to know that I could still be artistic. Because to me, style in cinema speaks volumes, and that is really what I wanted to be able to do. So that really gave me the confidence. To move forward.

Dave Bullis 20:01
So you mentioned your latest film. I mean, could you talk a little bit about that?

Staci Layne Wilson 20:16
Absolutely. It is called psychotherapy, and it stars Brooke Lewis and Ricky Dean Logan, and it's sort of a two hander. It's a very short film. It's just under 10 minutes, and Brooke had brought me on to write and direct it as sort of a showcase for her, because she is known for doing sci fi and comedies and things that are pretty light, and this is more of psychological thriller. So she wanted me to write something to her strengths as a dramatic actor and and then she brought on Ricky, who is also a very good actor, but I haven't actually met him before we started shooting. So that's another fun challenge that I enjoy, too. On the flip side of working with people that I know is also just sort of diving in and having fun with people that that I don't have experience with. So that's the part of the excitement of making a film. And so this short film is sort of Brooke and my we both love Brian De Palma film. So it's kind of our homage to dress to kill a little bit with the psychiatrist and the patient having a verbal te a Tete. And so far, the film has won several awards, both for acting, directing and writing, and it's only been on the festival circuit for a few months. So very encouraging. And our DP slash editor, Stefan Coulson, is really, really super talented, and so all those elements together, that's the fun thing, as opposed to say, writing a novel where it's very much just with you and it's your you know, sort of everything is is contained within the writer, to see how a script that I wrote evolves and sort of flowers with the different talents of the other people. So it's just a different kind of satisfaction, but it's they're both really interesting ways of expressing yourself artistically. And so, yeah, this latest short film is probably the one of the least artistic shorts that I've done. It's more linear and more like I said, it's a thriller, but I was able to add some visual flourishes that I wanted to. So it's been really great.

Dave Bullis 22:40
And in that that's amazing, because, you know, it goes on with what I was with, I was trying to get at before was, you know, always bringing something new from your old project to your new project. And what I mean by that is, you're bringing experience. You bring confidence. And I think, I think a lot of filmmakers, or even when I see a lot of read a lot of books or, or what have you, about filmmaking, they don't really talk about confidence. And if you don't really have any confidence, you know, in yourself or the project or the script or anything else, you know, I think that shows it almost becomes like, you're like, Okay, can you know what I mean? It kind of you end up getting maybe even a very passive sort of feel for the whole thing. You know what I mean. And I think confidence is something that a lot of people don't talk about and and one of the ways that I feel that that filmmakers can build confidence is is by small victories. And what I mean by that is, you make a project, maybe even going out, like Mark Duplass says, going out with your friends on a weekend and making a movie for 100 bucks or or doing something else, or maybe winning a local contest or something like that, and then sort of being able to sort of parlay that into something else, if you know what I mean, Staci?

Staci Layne Wilson 23:48
Oh, absolutely. I mean, it's like when you're learning how to swim. You don't dive into the deep end. You kind of stand on the steps for a little while, and then you wade into the shallow end and and then as you see, that you're not going to drown you you go a little bit further and a little bit further. So, yeah, I think that's definitely true. Sometimes, you know, I see, as an entertainment reporter, I don't really know what kind of connections these people have, but sometimes you see a film director who's given his very first project, and it's a blockbuster with, say, you know, Warner Brothers or Sony. I'm like, Wow, that must be really intimidating. You know,

Dave Bullis 24:28
You know Staci, you and I have the same mentality with that. I have seen other people who've gotten projects, maybe not even blockbusters, but it's like their first time film, and they walk out and they and they have, like, $100,000 or 500,000 or a million. And I search and yeah, and I sit there and I go, how did they get that money? Like, where did they get that from? You know, I once knew a person who, who basically his first time out, he got a bunch of grants and stuff like that. And I said, you know, you know, how do you how do. You do that. And he basically said he had a girlfriend who, at the time, her mother, was very big into she did a lot of charity fundraising, and she knew a ton of people, and that's how he got these grants. And basically they're just, they're not even grants that you like apply to, so to speak. They're grants that, you know, if you pitch to them at a, you know, at certain intervals, they'll be like, Okay, you could have this money. You could have that money. Well, that's how we raise some of the money, but, but just to go back to where we're talking about, you know, yeah, some people are out of left field, and suddenly they're directing the next Godzilla film for like, $200 million you know,

Staci Layne Wilson 25:36
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think for me personally, just knowing my very autonomous Freelancer personality, I would be not as happy working with a huge budget like that, where so much hinges on the success of the film, as opposed to the joy of making the film and creating something that you like. I don't know that I would really, you know, I definitely know I wouldn't feel comfortable having, you know, producers breathing down my neck every day about, you know, how much money is being spent. And, you know, look at all their writing on this. That's a lot of pressure to me for my part filmmaking, of course, I want to be able to make enough money to pay my rent, and so far so good, but I don't really aspire to be a huge, you know, Director making a blockbuster. However, having said that, I am really proud of Patty Jenkins, who's directed Wonder Woman, and she's done a great job with a huge blockbuster like that. I had interviewed her several years ago when she did monster, and that was sort of like a very, you know, personal film that she was able to put her own stamp on. And she's weathered the storms and look at her now. So I think it's great. It's really a good time, actually, to be a female creator in the film world, and hopefully I'll be able to glean a little bit of that good fortune myself as I move head ahead in my career.

Dave Bullis 27:10
You know, I was just talking about patty with her cinematographer from Monster, Steven Bernstein, and he and I were talking about patty and and we were just talking about, you know, Wonder Woman and everything like that. So it's just again. You brought that up. It's just a small again. I know I keep repeating this, Stacey, but it's a very small world.

Staci Layne Wilson 27:29
It's good. I like it,

Dave Bullis 27:31
Yeah. But it is, yeah. It is a good time, you know, for female directors and, you know, female producers too. Because even, like somebody like Gail heard on The Walking Dead, you know, I think she kind of, sort of, I don't know how many interviews she does, I don't know me. She's one of those people that sort of gets in the background, but, you know, it's, it's just, you know, it is, I can see more opportunities coming down the pike, and it's also great things too, like, I have to mention Carol Dean, who runs the grants from the hearth productions. She's phenomenal. And there's also great people out there, like Jennifer grissan, Lee, Jessup, Clara, Alexandra, all these great people out there working, you know, went out in your neck of the woods, Stacey in LA.

Staci Layne Wilson 28:16
Oh, absolutely. I just attended the etherea Film Festival last weekend, which has been going on for about five years now. Previous to that, it was called viscera, where it was more focused on horror, and now it's more genre, you know, based with different elements of that. And that is Heidi Honeycutt and Stacey Hammond, who run that Festival, which is pretty much, you know, focused on the female. In fact, they each film has to either be written, directed or produced by a woman. And this past weekend, Roger Corman came out and presented the Lifetime Achievement Award to Stephanie Rothman, who was his protege and she actually directed the first three new World Pictures, I think, and this is back in the early 70s. So Roger has always given people, regardless of gender or race, their big breaks. And early on, you know, before it was quote, unquote trendy. So it's really nice to see a woman like Stephanie Rothman being recognized today for the work that she did, which is really pretty pioneering in the early 1970s but I mean, you could even go back on this subject to the early era of talkies and silent films, when women like Mary Pickford were producing and it was a lot less gender biased. Then for a short period of time, until real money started coming in, and then it was, you know, taken over by by males. But I feel like, you know, we're definitely experiencing a bit of a renaissance here. So it's a good time to be a filmmaker, period, but even better to be a female filmmaker right now. So I'm feeling pretty good about where I am.

Dave Bullis 30:12
Yeah, and you know, it's interesting to see where all this is going to I'm always interested to see, too Stacy, where, you know, Netflix is going, where Hulu's going, where all these avenues are going? I mean, I've heard so many different things are rumbling down the pike, and it's just also interesting right now, how everything's sort of coming together.

Dave Bullis 30:49
Oh very true, very true. Yeah. And you know that that'd be interesting to sort of discuss. You know why that? Why that is but, but I we, because I don't have, I don't know the answer, but it's a good thing. I don't even have a theory, but, but I did want to talk about your book, so I'll lay a Hollywood memoir. I didn't want to talk about this, you know, before, you know. And I want to ask, you know, sort of, you know, what inspired you to actually write the book. I know you were working as a movie reporter. You know, you started doing, you know, all this film work. You released the book in March of this year, 2017 so what was sort of the impetus to write this book?

Staci Layne Wilson 31:34
Well, I started writing it last year just a couple of weeks before my birthday. It was a milestone birthday, and so that is really what made me think. You know, I've, I've lived a long enough life to be able to have an interesting story, but I hold on just a second here. Thank you. Sorry about that. That is something you can edit out.

Dave Bullis 32:01
I'm going to leave it in Staci. I think it's funny.

Staci Layne Wilson 32:05
Yeah, just got a special delivery. It's my stack of cash for the next movie I'm directing. Oh, nice. Okay, so, yeah. So the impetus to write the book was last year, and my birthday month, and it was a milestone birthday, so I felt like it was time for me to tell my story, because I had an interesting enough story with enough perspective to talk about it, but I'm still young enough and, quote, unquote, with it, to be able to tell the story to, you know, in an interesting manner. So that was part of it. And then another part of is that with the, you know, advent of social media, that people are know who I am, but they express a lot of interest in my parents, my dad and my mom, and I'll post pictures, and I'll get so many great responses, but their stories really haven't been told on a personal level. So for me, that was one of the reasons that I wanted to write, too, was to kind of give my mom and dad stories and in a candid way, but definitely not, you know, a Mommy Dearest kind of thing at all. But my mother, when I was growing up, she was an alcoholic, and she went through some really tough times, and my parents divorced when I was very young. So there's things to talk about in that regard where it wasn't just, you know, whipped cream and fluffy clouds childhood. So there's, you know, things that I want to talk about in that regard. And my parents did read the book after it was published, and they both approved, so that's good. So that's really what the impetus was, because I feel like I have some pretty interesting stories to tell and a different perspective than probably most people.

Dave Bullis 33:52
Yeah, and that sort of goes back to what I was mentioning too. Was, you know, just growing up in LA and still living there is an interesting perspective. And I just want to ask Stacey, what is maybe just one, just one story from the book? Maybe your most favorite or or the most you know, interesting from you, from your perspective, just something from the book. Me, is there any, any just one story you could tell from the book?

Staci Layne Wilson 34:16
Well, there are so many stories, because it covers many different facets of my life. So, I mean, we could talk about the very irate alcoholic monkey that my mom brought home one day when I was about seven years old. It was as my new pet, which was kind of fun. Or we could talk about, you know, why Malcolm McDowell told me I could call him my boyfriend later in life. When I was interviewing him just about every week for the Sci Fi Channel, we had sort of this fun little relationship, and he's a great guy. Or we could talk about the days of 1980s hair metal on the Sunset Strip. Oh, that was an odious time. So. Mean, so, I mean, there's really a lot to talk about, so I couldn't really pick one story, but there's a lot of little, little kernels. And you know, part of my wanting to do this was to be able to tell these stories in a humorous way. So a lot of feedback that I'm getting is really gratifying, and that people are finding, even in the more difficult times in my life, that there's always a temper of humor to it.

Dave Bullis 35:23
You know, one, one story that I saw from from you, from the Amazon homepage for your book, was a party at the Playboy Mansion. And I know this is I just every time I hear about the Playboy Mansion, the first thing I think of, and this just goes to show you where my head's at. Stacy is Pauly Shore, because there's a story that somebody once told about Pauly where he every year, every year he would, he'd be at a Playboy Mansion party, and he would go up, and he would just tell everyone he was 30 years old. Well, finally, someone said, you know, Paulie, you've been 30 years old for the past 20 years. So and it's just, and they actually made light of it in the TV show entourage. They actually brought that joke back, which I actually, I thought was pretty cool. But, yeah, no, no, just, I just thought was funny. But, I mean, pointing at the Playboy Mansion and it's heyday. I mean, yeah, exactly that. That takes stuff like that

Staci Layne Wilson 36:18
Back when it was exciting. Yeah, it was really neat to be able to go to that part. I believe that was 19 years old, 18 or 19 years old at the time, and perhaps girlfriend Carrie Lee, who I believe she sued him for palimony later on. But anyway, she was kind of out scouting the clubs for girls to invite to the parties. And so we went, and my friend peg and I, she was sort of my bad influence, which every kid needs to have her growing up, the bad influence friend. So we went, and it was really interesting to see it back then, especially since there was still a mystique to it, whereas now I did return for another party about three years ago, and things had really changed quite a bit, and also just the public perspective of the Playboy Mansion now that it's been demystified, it's just not as exciting. It's actually kind of cheesy. So it's kind of neat for me to have that experience from the perspective of of decades apart, to see, you know, how it was in the in the 80s to how it is now. And so I do talk about that in the book. Yes. And another thing about my book that maybe historians will find interesting is that I am an architecture buff, so I do go into all the places that I've visited and then talk a little bit about who built them and what their history is and what they look like. So those kind of things, you know, adding those details was really a lot of fun for me when I was writing the book too, to be able to do research on the things that I really enjoy and to be able to tell stories about them from a different perspective, not just the salacious, you know, Playboy Mansion grotto perspective.

Dave Bullis 37:59
So let me ask you, Staci, it was, is the rainbow Bar and Grill as legendary as they say?

Staci Layne Wilson 38:06
Yes, it is. There's been so much going on there throughout the years. Yeah, in fact, I did an interesting interview with the guys from LA meekly. We actually did our interview there at the rainbow so we could talk about its history and and it's really has not changed its decor in in many decades. And I don't know if you know, but motorheads front man Lemmy, he used to hang out there. In fact, he practically lived there. He had rented an apartment just within stumbling distance so he could hang out there all the time. And when he passed away a couple of years ago, he was such a fixture at the rainbow that they had actually commissioned a bronze statue of him, and so he's still there at the bar.

Dave Bullis 38:52
You know, I had a friend of mine out there who went out there, and he actually, you know, knew a few people who used to talk about the Rhema Bar and Grill, and they call it the bow and, you know, and I know he, and I always, and one of the guys are telling stories. Would always, he was one of those guys that, if he would always tell, embellish stories. So I wanted to ask, you know, to be like, I wanted to ask you straight, you know, straight from you Stacy, about, just about, if it's actually as legendary as they say,

Staci Layne Wilson 39:20
Yes. And I actually got to meet Jimmy Page there, who's my my hero growing up. I mean, I love Jimmy Page and Led Zeppelin. That was my jam when I was a kid and a teenager. So I actually had gotten a fake ID out of the back of like, hit parade or cream magazine so I could go to the rainbow when I was underage. And I saw quite a few really cool rock stars there, but my favorite sighting was definitely Jimmy Page. And then it sort of came full circle when as an entertainment reporter, I got to actually interview him for the documentary called It Might Get Loud.

Staci Layne Wilson 40:05
So it was really fantastic to be able to have my Jimmy Page moment on two totally different levels. One is the fan girl, and one as a entertainment reporter,

Dave Bullis 40:17
And see that. That's why, you know, I'm glad we got to talk Stacy, because you have those, those sort of dual perspectives of things, seeing them as fans and then seeing them as an interviewer. I think that's really cool.

Staci Layne Wilson 40:28
Yeah, yeah, I do too, and I really appreciate it, so I definitely talk about that in the book, and what it feels like to actually have those experiences. So hopefully people will appreciate that aspect of it too.

Dave Bullis 40:44
And I'll make sure to link the book in the show notes as well. And Stacey, I just want to ask, Oh, no problem at all. I just want to ask, also, you know, what? What next? What do you have next in the pipeline? You know, are you? What sort of movies are you working on next?

Staci Layne Wilson 40:59
Well, I'm so immersed in the book right now and psychotherapy festival run, but I don't have a lot ironed out yet, but my next hopeful project is to write and direct a documentary about the ventures, because, believe it or not, in spite of their incredible legacy and long running career, there's never been a documentary made about them. So if no one else is going to do it, why not me?

Dave Bullis 41:29
Exactly. You see an opportunity, or you see something that you would buy that's not out in the market, and you go out and you create it.

Staci Layne Wilson 41:37
Yep. Exactly.

Dave Bullis 41:40
So Staci, just in closing, I know we've been talking for about 40 minutes now. Is there anything that we can get a chance to talk about that you maybe want to talk about now, or anything you sort of want to say to put a period at this end of this whole conversation?

Staci Layne Wilson 41:52
Only to say thank you so much for having me on the show and to talk about my various different things. I know it's it's sometimes difficult to concentrate on one specific line of questioning with someone who does so many different things. But you know, I really do appreciate having a forum like this to be able to talk to you and to talk to your listeners, and just looking forward to meeting everyone so they can certainly find me online, and I love to interact with folks who also enjoy film and music and thank you.

Dave Bullis 42:29
And my pleasure, Staci and I thank you so much for coming on. Where can people find you at online?

Staci Layne Wilson 42:35
Just about anywhere I can give you the rundown, yeah, so I'm on Twitter as Staci Wilson. That's S T A, C, I W, I L, S, O, N, and the same on Facebook, and then on Instagram, I'm Stacey lane, which is my middle name. So that's S T, A, C, I, L, A, Y, N, E, and my website is stacilaynewilson.com so that's sort of the catch all for if you forgot all those social media things, you can go to my website and contact me there. In fact, I encourage you to do so,

Dave Bullis 43:09
But I thank you so much for coming on the podcast, and I wish you the best.

Staci Layne Wilson 43:15
Okay, cool, thank you.

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BPS 436: Lessons in Filmmaking, Failure, and Persistence with Greg Travis

September 11, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

The universe has a funny way of holding onto a film like a dusty reel in the attic, waiting for the perfect moment to reveal it. On today’s episode, we welcome the endlessly persistent Greg Travis, a filmmaker who proves that good movies never die—they just take their sweet time getting made.

Greg Travis is a veteran actor, director, and comedian who’s worked with cinematic giants like David Lynch, Paul Verhoeven, and Milos Forman, while carving out a gritty, self-made path in indie film.

Greg’s journey is one of creative endurance. In high school, he picked up a Super 8 camera, made his first feature, and thought, “This is easy.” That optimism, of course, would be tested across a decades-long career in stand-up comedy, television, and film. But his true passion always pointed in one direction: directing. And that passion finally culminated in the long-delayed release of his 1984 feature, “Dark Seduction”—a black-and-white, film noir throwback with a bite of ‘80s vampire sleaze, now reborn on digital platforms.

“There’s a lot you could go back and say, well, I could have done this, I could have done that… but for the most part, I got what I was trying to get,” Greg shares about the film. He dives deep into the post-production war stories: funding shortfalls, lost momentum, technical delays, and rediscovering the original film negative decades later. The transfer to 2K revealed details he never imagined possible back when he shot on 16mm. Ironically, the very delay that nearly buried the film made it better—thanks to the evolution of digital technology.

Throughout the episode, Greg opens up about working with some of the best directors in the business. He recalls how Lynch would dab fake blood on his face himself, with meticulous attention to the smallest physical detail, while Verhoeven came at a scene with bold, striking visual choices. The common thread between these directors? Vision. A clear sense of tone and visual continuity that carried from script to screen. “Tone is hard,” Greg admits, “but it’s everything. That’s what holds a film together.”

As an actor-turned-director, Greg has a rare dual perspective. He understands how to read performance, adjust energy, and speak the language of character. He encourages young directors to take acting classes—not to become actors, but to understand the process, rhythm, and mental prep behind a scene. “Some actors drop character the minute you call cut, some need to stay in it. You have to respect that,” he says.

He also champions the art of improvisation—though not the lazy kind. He believes in having a script, a tight plan, and then leaving just enough room to discover something better on set. This was especially true in his film Midlife, which began with improv-heavy scenes and ended up being trimmed from two and a half hours to a tight, lean feature through sharp editing.

Greg’s reflections on writing are equally practical. His advice? Start with a detailed three-act outline. Give each scene a purpose before you write a single line of dialogue. “You’ve got to know what your character is going through at every point,” he explains. “If you don’t map it out, you’re just wandering.” He learned this from working with major producers like Brian Grazer, and it remains his go-to strategy for getting scripts production-ready.

His latest film, Dark Seduction, isn’t just a genre mashup—it’s a love letter to noir, cult horror, and practical filmmaking. With a 1940s detective vibe and a modern-day wink, it straddles eras, styles, and sensibilities. It’s filled with grit, humor, and a whole lot of personality—everything you’d want from a filmmaker who’s seen both sides of the Hollywood coin.

Greg’s story is a masterclass in playing the long game. It’s about sticking with your vision, even when it takes years—or decades—to see it realized. He’s not selling a shortcut to success; he’s offering a blueprint for survival and longevity in a brutally competitive industry.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:49
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:54
My guest has worked with some of the best directors ever, including David Lynch, Paul Verhoeven and Milos Forman. My latest guest. Latest movie, excuse me, is which, in which he directed, was actually shot in 1984 and it's finally being released now. Think about that. He started filming this when I was born. It just shows you have to be in the long haul. It really does. And that movie, dark seductions, will be out October 11 on VOD and MOD with guest, Greg Travis. Hey, Greg thanks for coming on the show, buddy.

Greg Travis 2:26
My pleasure, Dave, my pleasure. Anytime I can talk to a fellow filmmaker, I'm down.

Dave Bullis 2:33
Well, you know, I appreciate it, Greg, you know I looked at your IMDB watch I knew of you before I looked at your IMDB, because I recognize you from a couple of different roles. And, you know, before I start talking about that, and we were getting all your, you know, your your very lengthy IMDb with some very impressive credits, my I just want to start off by asking about your background, and that is, I just want to ask, how did you get started in the film industry, you know, did you always want to act as when you were a kid, you know? So it's pretty much, I just want to know is, you know, how did you get started?

Greg Travis 3:06
Well, I was in high school, I got a Super Eight camera, started using my dad's home movie camera, and then I got one of the the sound cameras, and so I started making these little short, super eight films my junior year. And then my high school year, I actually made a feature length Super Eight movie called Joe dynamite, and I showed it at the high school theater, and I was able to get the theater for free, and, you know, work things out to where actually made my money back and actually made a little profit on the whole venture. And I thought, wow, this is easy. I can do this. Little did I know what I was in for? You know, then I came out to Hollywood and went to film school. And while I was going to film school, I started auditioning at the comedy clubs, and then kind of got a stand up career going, and got a few TV shows and started working the clubs and and I did that for about 20 years, and then I moved into the acting direction in the mid 90s and got a few big movies, and then that kind of helped launch my acting career. And did about 45 films in the last 15 years or so. And now I'm on my third act and trying to get back to what I originally wanted to do here, which was be a director and a filmmaker. And, you know, I mean, I've written all these years, and I've made a lot of shorts all these years, but in the last eight or nine years, I've really tried to focus in and, you know, make some movies. So I've got three features, night creep, mid life, and now dark seduction, that are finished features and that are getting out there. And dark seduction is being released October 11 on VOD, North America, VOD and pay per view. And so I'm super excited about that, because it took me about 30 years to complete that. Movie, which I'm not bragging about. It's kind of embarrassing to be honest with you, because it should have been finished, you know, at least 20 years ago, but I ran up into ran to a lot of obstacles and a lot of problems with this particular film that, you know, stopped me from finishing it. Every time I would go back to try to finish it, something horrific would happen and just stop me in my tracks, or or sometimes I'd run out of money and I'd have to, you know, regroup, you know. So it seemed to be an ongoing pattern in the process of the whole post production thing. But, you know, it, it's one of those things you just, you know, you try what you can, and then when I got back to it, the final time, I was able to get everything back and and finally finish it up. So I'm really happy about that.

Dave Bullis 5:59
Yeah, you know, Greg, I understand completely where you're coming from, about projects, you know, stalling out and having issues. You know, I've been there before. You know, whether you know it's, it's, you know, different you know, personalities you know, not agreeing on set, or different producers you know, not agreeing. You know, or even you know sometimes, I mean, for instance, Greg, I had, one time I had an editor who, every time I asked to see a kind of the movie, he would say, oh, yeah, you know, it's don't going well, this or that. I'd say, Well, I'm gonna go. I want to come up and see a cut of it. And he would always have an excuse. Finally, he don't, he have to admit. He's like, listen, I I've been working on it at all. I'm he's like, you know, I'm sorry, yeah, so I understand completely what you mean. But, you know, I do want to talk more about dark seduction, but, you know, I would be, you know, I again, you have such an extensive IMDb resume, I just want to sort of take a step back and talk about some of your credits. I mean, you have worked with some of the best directors, you know, not only going today, but some of the directors that have you know ever, ever lived. I mean, you've worked with David Lynch, Paul Verhoeven. You've worked with bobcat, Goldthwait.

Greg Travis 7:09
You did five easy pieces, a lot of Jack Nicholson films. Yeah, that was a thrill to work with him. And the Milo foreman, who did the Andy Kaufman movie, man on the moon. And yeah, I was lucky in the fact that of being a filmmaker and an actor, I had studied films all of my life, and was a huge movie goer when I was a kid. So I had seen just about everything, any all these guys had done, especially when they came out on video. I rented everything. And my friend in New York had a video store so I could watch anything that was available. And so, you know, I've always studied film and always loved it. And so it when I would meet these directors and go in for the final audition, I would start talking to them about their obscure movie, the one movie that no one knew about. That's the one I would talk to them about they love that, you know, they absolutely love that because, like, they don't get a chance to discuss it. So it was, like, you know, kind of the inside scoop on some of their obscure films I would like talk to them about, you know. But David was great. I didn't really have too much to say. He was in the middle of shooting, and the cast director brought me over to him, and, you know, he just said, great, you're right. This is great. You look great, and it'll be perfect. And so that was about it. So, you know, I got lucky on that one, and he was a whole lot of fun to work with. He's really detailed oriented. He put the blood on my face himself, and he, you know, he was, like, really had ideas about every little movement and every little thing, and it was all very well planned out and very well thought out. You know, he knew what he wanted and or, you know, you never know exactly what you want. I mean, you got an idea, a concept of the scene and how it should go, and you try to explain it to the actors, and then you just hope for the best. And that's basically what every director does. And then you tweak it as you go along. He said, Well, maybe you don't, you know, you don't scream that much here, maybe you bring it down a little bit there. Maybe you don't hit him with the gun there, you know, that kind of thing, you know, so but, yeah, I'd always been a dead matter of fact, Eraserhead was kind of the first midnight movie that I saw when I came out here. And it just disturbed, disturbed me to no end. I just didn't quite understand it. And but I felt, I mean, it felt, it, I felt there was something really going on here, but I didn't quite, you know, I didn't understand what was happening. But it, it moved me. I'll put it that way,

Dave Bullis 9:51
You know, it's funny, because I took somebody to see Lost Highway and and he had never seen it before. And when he left the theater, he goes, you know, Dave, he goes that movie. I'm not sure what was happening, but he goes, I'm very interested. And he said, you know, a couple days later on, he texted me, and he goes, You know, I'm still thinking about Lost Highway,

Greg Travis 10:22
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had some really fun stuff in it, and some really creepy stuff too, you know, I always thought as if it is a revenge dream, you know, by the Bill Pullman character. And, you know, that's sort of, I think what it was, you know, he becomes this young guy in his dream and gets revenge on that the older guys who messed him up with his girlfriend, you know, or his wife. So at least, that's kind of the way I take it. And then he did that same sort of thing in his next movie that was going to be the TV show that got so many awards. What the hell's the name of it? Omaha? Drive, yeah, he did the same kind of thing, only with women. It was the same sort of, like switching characters and, you know, becoming another person kind of a thing, you know.

Dave Bullis 11:21
Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. It's funny because you now, you know when we saw him, I when, when he, you know he was actually there, and he introduced twin or, sorry, he introduced Lost Highway, and he said, and people were asking, are you working on anything else? And he said, No. And at about a couple days later, he announces that he's back with Twin Peaks Season Three on Showtime. So really, yeah, it was just, I was like, wow, if he had only, you know, but, but it was just amazing. You know, I've just a funny little story. Real quick. I actually tried to get him on for 100th episode on this podcast. And I actually missed him by a couple of, I guess maybe a couple days. His is manager actually said that he's off shooting season three at Twin Peaks. And he's like, you know, he's all he's all he's doing right now, so maybe when he comes back, but I was like, you know, I mean, that guy, I mean, he's just, you know, phenomenal. I mean, but you know, so when I wanted to ask Greg, is, you know, when you're working with somebody, you know, like Lynch, or you're working with somebody like Paul van Hoven, you know, what are some of the biggest takeaways that you think you've had is, do you think there's something that there's there's like one constant that you know, sort of, maybe a strength that all these directors share that makes them, you know who they are.

Greg Travis 12:30
Well, they all have a kind of definite look that they're trying to achieve with the film itself, the way they shoot it, the way they you know, are going to cut it. The hardest thing, I think, for any director, is to get a mood, a certain type of tone that can carry through the throughout the film. I think David Lynch, that's one of his strengths. He really knows how to set a tone, a dark, ominous, kind of creepy tone to the thing, and keep that, you know? I mean, it's not constantly throughout the film, but it's still there. And, boy, he's really great at that. And every other director has their strength. Like Verhoeven is a kind of a very strong just in your face, imagery that just really sticks with you and really hit you in the chest, you know, very entertaining, very fun, and just keeps coming at you, you know. And I love that kind of stuff. I love, you know, strong imagery and strong choices. And you know, as an actor, when you work with these kind of guys, you just have to, kind of like go with your confidence and come in with the strongest ideas that you can think of, and just you know, know that that's right, and not worry about exactly what you think they want, but within the script and with what you think it it needs, that's what you give them, and they'll let you know If it's not what they want or if they want to tweak it. But most of the time, they really liked what I did, and they were very happy with it. So I was really lucky to to be able to work with those guys, you know,

Dave Bullis 14:12
Yeah, you know, Greg, that was actually going to be my next question was, you know, as an actor, you know, you know what, what is sort of like, you know what you're you're bringing, you know, obviously, you're bringing, you know, your own unique skills and talents to the role. And you know, they, you know, they're, they're directing you, obviously, in this, in this particular role. And so one of my question was, is, what are some of the biggest takeaways that they when you're working with them, that that you have used in your own projects, you know, I sort of like something that you've learned from, you know, Zack Snyder or Verhoeven. You know that you and Rob Zombie, you know something that you've taken and sort of put in your own films.

Greg Travis 14:52
They all do different things. Like Zack Snyder does various speed takes, where he'll do a shot. You know, 20 times, and he'll do it a little bit differently each time. And I think that's kind of interesting. I haven't been able to use that exactly, but I like the idea of doing a little different each time. Instead of trying to do it the same way each time, he does it a little differently each time. And I think I've heard that Ridley Scott does that same kind of thing. He'll move the camera an inch or two over with each progressive take, so that he gets a little bit different angle and a little bit different look, you know. And I thought that's pretty, pretty cool. You know, the the film, The last film that I, you know, shot and put out there was midlife, which was a very Cassavetes type of a look. I shot at long lens. And then the wide shots were like a 40 millimeter. So it was kind of a wide, and that's what I was going for. Was a very tight, kind of very realistic Cassavetes type of look. And so that's kind of what I was trying to capture. And so I would go back and study all of his films and see what he was doing exactly, and they're all a little different, and they're all shot a little different. There is no one Cassavetes look, but he does do long lens close ups and pretty tight close ups when he does them. And so I use that technique. And you know, you just learn, you just pick up different directorial techniques from working with all these different directors. And then also what you know, working as a director for many, many, many short films and theater and all kinds of different things in my own shows and stand up, because in stand up, you're really directing yourself, you know, I mean, you're really sort of like jumping out of your skin and saying, Well, this look like, and what would that look like? And you kind of have to have a second nature about what would make an audience laugh or what would make an audience cry. And you develop those skills as you go along, and I think that I've been able to do that, and now I'm ready to really apply all that knowledge to making movies, you know, you know,

Dave Bullis 17:13
That's good point, Greg, and you know, that's actually what I wanted to sort of segue into right now was, you know, just looking at your IMDB page. You know you've you've written five pieces, and you know you've directed for and I just want to ask, you know the your first you know IMDb credit you know that you have is night creep. And I want to ask, you know you made this in 2003 it was also written by you. So I wanted to ask Greg, now you've said in the intro that you want to, sort of want to go back to this, because this, this is why you, you got into this. Was you, I wanted to make your own films, right? So was it, was it the right sort of time and place, so to speak, to make night creep? What I mean by it, that is, did you sort of have the, like, a, sort of, like a small window, or maybe an opportunity at that point,

Greg Travis 18:00
I hooked up with this, you know, this guy who was gonna invest in it, he was gonna, you know, put the money. And so I wrote a pretty I wrote a script. It was what I thought was pretty commercial, and actually wasn't very commercial at all, but I kind of wrote a psychological horror film in a very kind of Lynchian David Lynch in kind of way to where we don't really know what's going on half the movie, and we're waiting to find out. But at least in my movie, I do let the cat out of the bag at the end of the film, and I do explain somewhat what was happening, even though there's a few things left in the air, I suppose, to David Lynch, who doesn't ever explain anything, and you're just like, left walking out of the theater on what the fuck was that all about? But you know, you have to study his films, and then, you know, kind of come to some conclusions on your own. But that's what makes them fun, you know, but, yeah, I just had, I had a window of opportunity, and then, of course, that investor pulled out at the last minute, and then I had to scurry around with some of my own money. And so a few other people that I knew put a little money into it, and then we were able to kind of pull it together and do it. But, you know, I had made dark seduction back in their mid 80s. And I actually felt really, really confident at that time, because I'd been doing a lot of shorts leading up to that, and I had a very specific look. And the partner that I was working with shot it, and he understood what we were going for. And so the look of dark seduction, I was pretty much satisfied with. I mean, there's a lot you could go back and say, well, I could have done this, I could have done that, but I, for the most part, I got what I was trying to get, you know, and there's always things you could have done better. And some of the shots we did were out of focus and didn't come out, which was a shame. But you just, you know, you work with what you got and and so then all that time, I would go, you know, be thinking that I was going to come back and finish dark seduction. And then after that, that would lead to another film. So when I made night creep, I just gotten to the place where I just had do something else. And I couldn't depend on, you know, finishing dark seduction. For that one, I just had to, you know, start from scratch and do something new. And so it has some of the similar themes running through it. There's some lesbianism, and there's some, you know, kind of like creepiness that similar to Dark seduction, in a way, but it's not about vampires or anything. It's about a creepy landlord that comes into this girl's room at night while she's sleeping, and we don't know if it's a dream or if it's reality or exactly what's going on, because she takes a drug, and so we think the night creep drug might be causing her to have these hallucinations. And so that's part of the plot, but it came out pretty good. It's a lot of fun, you know, and but dark seduction is the one that really everybody seems to be responding to the premiere. Was a huge success, and the audience loved it, and everybody's really, really excited about it, and, you know, they really, really like it. So it's kind of a weird hybrid of a 1940s detective film and an 80s lesbian vampire film, and we're not sure if the vampires are really vampires or if they're just badass chicks that think they're vampires and go around doing these things. And so there's that mystery, and there's that angle of it, and you know, it's just really odd, kind of weird, little cool cult movie that, you know, took me forever to finish, but I'm glad I did, because the technology has gotten so much better now it made it so much it's now it's much slicker, and the sound and The music and everything about it is much better now having finished it this past year than it would have been if I would have finished it 20 years ago or 30 years ago, you know,

Dave Bullis 22:30
Yeah, you know, Greg, that was, actually, was going to ask you also was, you know, since you started making that in the 80s, you know, like you said, you started that in the 80s, you know, the camera technology has, you know, Just, you know, gone through so many evolutions, you know. You know, now you can, you can go out now, and you know, our phone is a camera now. Also, you know, there's cameras out that cost as much as a house, you know. And it's amazing this, this amount of technology. So wanted to ask, you know, did you, you know, use any of the of the new cameras sections to sort of put, maybe shoot some new scenes, or

Greg Travis 23:02
No, I shot everything, everything we shot. I did an 8485 on 16 millimeter black and white, and when I did a 2k transfer from the negative, it really, really, I mean, it's a little grainy. I mean, it's, you know, it's grainy in certain areas, but it really looks fantastic. The 2k transfer just brought out all the imagery and brought out all the little details. And I couldn't have asked for a better quality, you know, print of it, it's much better than if I'd have made a film print, because we have more control with the digital transfer, you know. And it is sharper than a film print. I mean, it is a little bit sharper. So I got everything, you know. And unfortunately, the the negative had been sitting around for a long time. So there, even though they cleaned it a couple of times and we had it sonically cleaned, there's still a little dust here and there that was embedded in the negative so, you know, it gives it kind of an old, you know, TCM, you know, little bit of an old quality that, you know, kind of makes it even cooler, you know. I mean, nobody's complained about the little specs that are on a few of the scenes or, you know, that pop up from time to time. But it kind of gives it an old feel to it, which is kind of neat too, you know,

Dave Bullis 24:26
Yeah, you know Greg, when I think I either I saw still, I believe, watch the trailer also, it kind of reminds me of Dark City, in a way, because you said it was like a 1940s you know, detectives, with the 1980s it reminds me, I don't have you ever seen the film Dark City, but in a way, It reminds me a little bit of that film

Greg Travis 24:42
Was that a color film, though, was dark city of color, like the Canadian film.

Dave Bullis 24:48
Yeah, it was, I think Val Kilmer or no, probably was about, come on, but I'm, I forget, actually, who was in it,

Greg Travis 24:56
And it was at a lot of strip joint scenes. He was like a bouncer. And. Strip joint or something. Was that the one you're talking about Dark City?

Dave Bullis 25:04
Yeah, it was by it was directed by Alex yes, I think it's

Greg Travis 25:11
There might be one I'm confusing it with, but yeah, it's definitely a dark noir, you know, and that's kind of what I'm going for with this, you know, that that 40s more that, like, had the tough, you know, square jaw detective that was drinking and smoking all the way through the film. I kind of a Bogart type character, but a little bit more, little bit more tougher and bigger and, you know, able to take a little bit more punishment than even Bogart. So I found this actor, comedian named Tyler horn, who was perfect for the role. And so I just didn't even have a casting session. I just asked him if he wanted to do it, because I knew he'd be great in it. And he really is funny. He's he's quite a perfect kind of Dick Tracy looking character. So it worked out really well.

Dave Bullis 26:06
So Greg, you know, coming from an acting background, do you feel that, you know, that was sort of like, sort of your unfair advantage, because that was your biggest strength, because you, you know, you've worked with all these directors, you also your cell phone is an are an actor, so you're able to sort of, you know, talk to these actors, maybe you understand them in a different way that maybe most directors don't. If you know, if you know what I mean?

Greg Travis 26:28
Well, you know, part of it is the casting of the actor, and then, you know, sometimes you get into a situation where, you know, you've got really good improv actors, and you would be an idiot not to let them improvise. And some directors are not, you know, savvy to that. They want to stick to the script per verbatim, and they don't know when to expand their idea and to take advantage of a talented improvise, of a talented actor who can improvise, and even if you don't use it in the film, sometimes you just go, you just let it happen, and you like play with the ideas. And I think improvisation is a really good technique, because you've got the idea in the script, you know where you're going with it. You know, let them play with the lines a little bit. As long as the information you need to drive the plot is in there, then you can, like, you know, you can go off script a little bit and play with the ideas, and you never know. You might just use one of those lines in the editing, or you might use a couple little of those bits. And a lot of times it's better than what you had in mind in the script, because you can't always imagine it until you get there. And then when you get there and you see what you've got to work with. Go ahead and work with it. Go ahead and expand the idea, you know, and explore it a little bit. I mean, I think that's the key to really good filmmaking, is to explore the ideas once you get there, you know.

Dave Bullis 27:56
Yeah, I concur, Greg, you know, the more I study in the more you know, I apply these things, the more I find, especially in my writing, you know, the more you expand and explore and stay curious about these ideas, yeah, you know, the more they're able to flow,

Greg Travis 28:12
Yeah, and it's, it's, you know, it's tricky, because I did a lot of improv in midlife, and the first Cut of it was, like two and a half hours long. And I thought, you know, that was a pretty good cut, but I was wrong. I ended up taking like, 40 minutes out of it and kept whittling it down until I got it where it was at its basic essence, and it was just what I needed, but not too much. It was just enough to tell the story. And that's what you try to go for, is just the essence of what you need to tell the story. You know, people like, you know, there's a lot of directors who get a little indulgent, and I think the big trick is not to let the line of tension go. You know, that's the most important thing in a film. If you look at all the classics and all the Orson Welles films, he was very adamant about keeping the line of tension in there, you know, which is driving the story and also keeping the audience interested as to what's going to happen at the end of this story, what's going to happen to these characters, you know. But when you lose that, and you veer off and you go into different places for a long period of time that don't have anything to do with the story. It can really derail the train. He can really throw you off, and can throw your audience off. So you really have to keep that in mind. The line of tension, I think, is the most important thing, whether it's a comedy or drama or whatever kind of movie you're making, you really want to keep the audience interested in what's going to happen at the end. You know.

Dave Bullis 30:02
Yeah, I was listening to an interview by Lawrence block, who did a walk along the tombstones. He wrote that, and he was, you know, saying the same thing about, you know, having that tension in there, because you don't want audiences going in, going, Well, hey, I know this guy's not going to die because, you know, you know, so of, because of, you know, X, Y and Z, and I know this thing's going to happen. You know what I mean? And I think that's where, you know. I think a lot of people sort of, you know, because people who usually, you know, go to movies, you know, they've seen other movies before in the same genre, you know what I mean. They've seen, you know, action movies. That's why, when a die hard comes around, it just blows people out of the water, because they're going, Holy crap. You know, this is this guy's this John McClane, he's bleeding. He doesn't know what's going on. He's injured. He doesn't, you know, he's not just walking in the room with a machine gun clearing out the whole room, right? You know, they really, he really had to, you know, dissect what was going on and do this sort of, very, very, you know, cerebral, that's human word, cerebral, but you know, he had to go in there and, you know, sort of deduce, you know, and sort of use a surgeon scalpel, and then, you know, that's why I think, you know, Die Hard is such a, you know, a unique move in its own right.

Greg Travis 31:08
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, when it came out, it was just, he was outnumbered, and the situation, the conflict of the situation, was fresh and new. You know, we hadn't seen anything like that, you know, in a building where you're stuck in the crawl spaces and you've got to maneuver your way and try to find a way to get rid of these guys. And, yeah, it was a great little scripted piece, you know. And it was very well executed on the direction too, because the the other cops didn't know what was going on, and they weren't taking it seriously. You know, these guys were. We knew as an audience member, these guys are super bad, and you better take them seriously. Are you going to get you're in for a big surprise. And so we knew that as an audience, but you know, within the film, they didn't know that. And so that was kind of an interesting angle on it as well. And there's also those kinds of things. As an audience, you tell the audience certain things, but the characters don't know. Like in dark seduction, we know as an audience how we got bit, but he doesn't figure it out until well into the film, you know, because he just can't remember, and it's not clear to him, and he's not sure what's going on and but it's a comedy. I mean, it's a it's more of a comedy parody of a 1940s detective film than it is anything else. But I tried to make it its own unique movie by combining it with an 80s vampire feel. So it's like a time shift, if that makes any sense, there's like two different time periods going on at the same time. So it's kind of weird that way, you know.

Dave Bullis 32:45
Well, you know, great. I know, as we talk about dogs, dark seduction, I you know, I want to ask, you know, your writing style, you know, and your writing process, you know what? So when you're going to sit down and you know whether you use a notebook or whether you, you know, write this on a computer, I want to ask, you know, what is your process? I mean, you sort of already, you know how you I'm sure you already have an idea in mind, but you outline it heavily. Or do you just, you know, sort of let it flow naturally.

Greg Travis 33:09
Yeah, when I'm writing a feature, I do a three act outline, and I try to outline each scene with a number, and I go through the whole thing and try to get an outline. Because when you're when you're scripting it, if you can at least put a few lines of dialog in that paragraph that you've outlined that scene with, it gives you a jumping off place, and you know where you're going next. And then, of course, you change things as you go along. And not all outlines, not all scenes in the outline, are going to make it into the script. And then you come up with new stuff as you go along, too, but at least it gives you sort of a place to start with. And I just wrote a little short film, and I just kind of, you know, did it in a week, and just kind of chipped away at it, like a page, page and a half a day until I got it all done, like, you know, 13, 14, pages, and then I sent it to some few people, got some feedback, did another draft of it, and now I think it's in pretty good shape. And so I think, you know, you think about these things for a while. You kind of like, get a beginning, a middle and an end, and think about, you know, okay, you need this scene, you needed that scene. And I didn't outline that particular short film. I just actually just scripted it from just what I had in mind. So it's a little different with each project, but I think on a full feature, it's really good to do a detailed outline of the whole thing first. And I learned that from working with, I used to write with Rick Overton. We were writing partners back in the 80s. We wrote some scripts for studios and a bunch of screenplays for independence and whatnot. And I learned that technique from James Keach and Brian Grazer, who were the producers we were working with in the early days. And so I. That's one of the things they like to do. And I think it works pretty well, you know,

Dave Bullis 35:07
Yeah, it's worked pretty well for especially Brian Grazer, right?

Greg Travis 35:10
Yeah. Well, it just gives you an overview of the movie. It's like, okay, now I can kind of see what kind of movie were, you know, we're trying to do here. Before you write the script, you kind of have an idea of how it's all going to go down. And a lot of a lot of writers say they just jump right into it, and they just write, write, write, and they don't even worry about the three act structure. But their scripts definitely fall short and kind of fall flat because of that. I've read a ton of scripts, and you know, if you don't have that three act structure in there, it's, it's, really can be quite problematic. You know, not that everything has to have that, or that it should have that. I mean, with mid life, the three act structure was sort of hidden, and it was not exactly the way it should be, but it was still there, you know, was still there. And I think that's a good thing to have consciously when you approach an idea, because if it's not there, you're really on shaky ground. You're on shaky territory. And by that three act structure, I mean, like certain things have to happen to your lead character. You know, certain beats and certain things, obstacles and the conflict test increase, and, you know, all those types of things that are script structure, you know,

Dave Bullis 36:33
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, that's something I've talked to before, especially with Alan watt from Ellie Raiders lab. You know, we talked about, you know, what the three act structure is supposed to be. And, you know, even, even different systems that you see, like save the cat, you know, really, what they're trying to do is it, you know, not only is it trying to guide a transformation, but it's also, you know, trying to just make sure that you're always amping it up, yeah, so that way, you know, you don't, sort of, you know, on page 15, you know, you have some kind of climax, and the rest of the movie, you just, sort of, you know, just meandering. It's sort of, right, you know, just trying to give you know, just trying to give you, like, a blueprint of where to go, right?

Greg Travis 37:01
And he's an expert at that much more than I am. But the the upping, the Andy on the conflict is an important element to keep in there so that the the stakes get higher as you go along. You know, absolutely and that can apply to any kind of story, you know, whether you're doing something about a little kid or, you know, whatever it is, the stakes keep getting higher and the conflict keeps getting more and more intense, you know. So that's what keeps the line of tension in place and keeps the audience wondered what's going to happen next. Oh, my God. You know, it can't get any worse. You know, especially in horror movies, that's a very prevalent technique to use. You know, when the girls trapped in a castle, and she just keeps one bad thing happens after another, and you know, what's, you know, what's the next bad thing that's going to happen? You know, it's like a horrific thing that's going to happen. It just keeps getting worse and worse. But yeah, yeah. So you know, knowing all of this, you know, and learning all of these things throughout the years as both a writer, actor and filmmaker is just gives you more ammunition, gives you more confidence going into a project. And you know, films are tricky propositions. You know, they're just not a guarantee that they're going to work, even if you have a good script, even if you, you know, have just thought about it and you've got it all worked out, and you shoot it perfectly. I mean, when people went to see the shining. They were walking out on it. They didn't like it, you know, one like the book. Everybody was expecting, you know, Stanley to do the book, and he didn't. And it just kind of, you know, it didn't really shock you or scare you that much. It had a few scares in it, but not really that scary. But it took years for that film to sort of find its audience and find its place in the horror world. And now it's considered to be one of the best horror movies ever made. But believe me, when it came out in 1980 nobody knew what to make of it. They were just like, Oh, that was weird, you know, they didn't know how great it was. In other words, what I'm trying to say, and a lot of his movies are like that. They take time to kind of find their audience and to kind of become, you know, as great as they really are. But I don't know how he was able to do that, but somehow he did what he was. Films are weird. I mean, you don't always get it the first viewing, you know. And then there's all different ways. If you view something by yourself on television, it doesn't always hit you, but when you see it with an audience in a theater, oh, my God, it becomes a whole different thing, you know.

Dave Bullis 39:54
Yeah, I know exactly what you mean, like with that, because, you know, I've had that, that. Happened to me with certain movies. You know, it's sort of like the shared, the shared experience in the theater, and then I, you know, you sure you try to watch it at home later on, you like it didn't hit the same way, or even vice versa, you know, it's just, it very, it's very interesting. And even David Lynch had said something about this. He said, You know, don't watch movies on your phone. Yeah, yes. I don't know why people are trying to watch movies on their phone.

Greg Travis 40:31
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's a certain mood, it's a certain excitement that goes along with seeing it on the big screen. You can see everything that the movie has to offer on the big screen, and it's the shared experience that makes it much more elevated and much more of an experience altogether. And yeah, I was real tickled being able to show some of my films to a full packed theater and see the true reactions. And it's amazing. You know, some of the things that I've seen 1000 times, and didn't think were that funny, get big laughs, and you're just going, what was that all about? I didn't think that would get a laugh, but it does. You just never know. You just never know about, you know, certain things in your own movie that you think, you don't even think about them, you know, and then all of a sudden people are reacting to it, and it's just amazing, you know, just constantly surprising,

Dave Bullis 41:27
Yeah, you know, very true. You know, it's, you know, it's so all these things are come become very subjective, you know, they sort of, you know, some things hit, some things don't, later on, and then vice versa.

Greg Travis 41:37
Problem with sending your movie to a distributor online, on a file is like, you know, how is this guy going to watch this thing? Is he going to watch it while he's, you know, on his laptop, on the bus, on the way home? Is he going to watch it on his phone, or is he going to put it on the big screen when he gets home and sit back with some friends and watch it, you know? I mean, they say they you know, then I don't think anybody can really watch a film by themselves on a small device and really have a good response to it. You know, nothing looks as good on a small device by yourself. I don't care who you are, you know, you're not going to respond to it as much as if you said it with a few other people, because you're you're focusing more on the movie, on watching the movie with other people in the room. Then you are by yourself. You get distracted. You put it down, you stop it for a while. That's not the way a movie supposed to be. It's a book. It's a it's a one thing. It's a one time. You got to go from A to Z with it. You know?

Dave Bullis 42:41
Yeah, yeah. I want to ask, you know, since the you know, your movie, dark section, comes out this today, as you know, this podcast is being released. You know, Greg, where can people find dark seduction?

Greg Travis 42:52
It is going to be on Pay Per View, movie on demand. You can order the DVD on Amazon. I think it's going to be on iTunes and all of the Pay Per View cable outlets in North America and and just, you know, look it up online, dark seduction, pay per view or dark seduction, VOD video on demand in your area. So it's going to be on cable outlets and video on demand outlets, and that's about all I can tell you. I mean, it's going to be done so many of them, I don't know all the listings, you know, but it should be available, you know, Amazon, iTunes, and all the cable pay per views. So we will should be able to find it pretty easily.

Dave Bullis 43:45
And for everyone listening, I'm gonna make sure to link to that in the show notes as soon as I can find a, you know, they where I can sort of send you to, like, maybe even Amazon, or even an Xbox, or all of them. So that way I'll, so I'll put a few links in the show notes. Okay, you know Greg, Greg, as we're talking I have some Twitter questions that came in. Would you mind answering one or two? My first question is, what do you recommend for a first time filmmaker in directing actors?

Greg Travis 44:15
That seems to be a tough thing. I think a first time director might do himself a big favor by maybe taking an acting class guys that are coming more from a script or an editing position, and then moving up to directing their own things. Might might consider taking an acting class just to get an idea of watching the teacher direct actors and watching the actors work out a scene and rehearse a scene, and how it's all supposed to go down. Because in actuality, there's a camera rehearsal with the actors rehearsal. Sometimes there's a couple of actors rehearsals before the camera. Comes in so that you can kind of find the choreography and find the way you want to do it. And then the camera guy comes in and starts seeing how he can shoot the scene, along with the actors rehearsing it. And then you break for makeup and touch ups and whatever else you need to do. And then you come back and you're ready to go, and then you shoot it. But, you know, reading books about acting, and it's a little over complicated. I mean, there's this whole methodology that, you know, there's different branches of the method, and all of that is well and good, but that's usually the actors responsibility to take that on and learn that and use that as his own technique and part of his craft to get where he needs to be for imaginary scene, you know. And so directing actors in that, you know, if they need a little time to cry, if they need a little time to get into a certain head space, an intensity or something, you give them that time, as long as it's not too long a time, give them a little, you know, a minute or so to do what they need to do to get there, and You're better served. Sometimes, that's what it is. Sometimes, tell sometimes actors are, you know, in character, and they stay in character, and so there's that to consider. Sometimes they're in a certain mood that will help them create the character and the mood that they're trying to achieve. And so you can't you kind of have to kind of watch out for that sometimes, and, you know, and then some actors, you know, just drop it the minute the UL cut, and they're themselves again, and then they jump back into character, you know, when the cameras roll. So there's all kinds of different ways that actors approach it, and you just have to be aware of all of that as a director. But basically, you know, you've got to know when somebody hits a sour note, and if a line reading is not very good, you you really have to be able to tell that and tell the actor how you want to adjust it, not doing a line reading for the actor, but go, let's try that a little quicker, or try it a little different way. It just seemed kind of falling. It didn't sound real, or, you know, something to that nature where they, you know, they get an idea, but you're not insulting in them at the same time. Because you want to be really nice to your actors. You don't want to be mean to them at all, because then they get upset and they get nervous and they they don't perform as well.

Dave Bullis 47:47
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, just one thing that someone once told me to it really helped me out when I was, you know, making my my student film was, and it's something you touched on Greg, which it reminded me of, was trying things a little bit differently, and it's sort of when he his mistake was, the guy give me advice was, when he made a student film, he would do every take exactly the same way. So every act, every performance, was the exact same way, lighting same way, camera same way. Well, finally he realized, wait a minute, I really, all my takes are pretty much the same. So, you know, take, you know, take one a you know, take one is the same as take 10. So it really at the end of the day, he said, you know, what I should have done was, after each take, I should have just tweaked that performance, make that adjustment, you know, and just sort of try everything a different way, so to speak, to sort of try to find the best sort of way to handle that scene.

Greg Travis 48:35
Well, I mean, you're going for something very specific. I mean, that's the thing. It's like I'm a character, like, I just did this little horror movie called The Born less ones. It's, I think it's coming out later in October or whatever, but I saw it at a festival a couple of weeks ago. And you know, if I'm a creepy guy at a gas station, which I play in this film. There's just so much leeway on each line that I've got to work with. I'm going for a specific kind of insulting, kind of creepy, kind of hardcore feeling with this character. So I don't have a lot of latitude. I'm really trying to pinpoint that feeling in that that character, you know, and I think that's kind of, unless you're a character that's all over the place, that's kind of what you're trying to do is, you know, pinpoint your reactions, pinpoint your your your lines, to define the character that you're playing to be that character, and how that feels that character. And there is a right and wrong and that I do believe, you know, sometimes it feels more like the character, and then you say it slow, or you say it in a different way than it doesn't feel like the character. And so that's what you're doing. You're just trying to get that meter as close to that character as possible.

Dave Bullis 50:18
Yeah. And that's great advice. I think that's great advice, Greg. You know, Greg, Joe, just in closing, you know, we've been talking for about, you know, about 45 minutes now. So in closing, is there anything that maybe we didn't want to discuss, that you want to sort of talk about, or is there any sort of thing you want to sort of, any parting thoughts you have for us to sort of put a period down this whole conversation?

Greg Travis 50:39
Well, I mean, you know, I've done a lot of different aspects of the business, and it's a very difficult business. I don't recommend it to anybody. But I, at the same time, realize that film is a big thing, and I would say, continue to support movies by going to the movies. Maybe not so many, you know, comic book blockbusters, but more independent cinema, because we still want to see movies in the theater, and we still want to support the theater showings of films. And, you know, I would say, Don't pirate movies. Don't download pirated films, because that only hurts the filmmaker, and it makes it makes it much more difficult to put films out there. You know, everybody wants something for free on the internet, but we still, we got to get our money back, and we've got to try to support the films that that are made on a shoestring budget, that are good by paying a little, you know, four or five bucks to see them. You know, I don't think there's anything you know. I think that's an honorable way to go. And I think that's what we as film lovers, you know, should do. That's the right thing to do. And you know, I'm hoping everybody will enjoy dark seduction. And I've got another film mid life that's on iTunes and indie rain and a few other outlets out there and check that out. But dark seduction is the big one. And it's, you know, it's very comic book, it's very cultish, it's very dark and moody, but it's also extremely funny, and I'm super proud of it. And it's kind of different. It's, it's unique. It's got its own little thing going, you know. So I hope people dig it, and

Dave Bullis 52:27
I'll make sure to, again, everyone want to link to that in the show notes as well, especially to, you know, Greg's film

Greg Travis 52:33
Dark Seduction page on Facebook, and there's a dark seduction Twitter on Twitter. So, yeah, the Facebook page is what I'm using now is, and my website is gtfilmproductions.com. Is my production company website.

Dave Bullis 52:51
You read my mind, Greg, and you're on Twitter too, right?

Greg Travis 52:57
Yes, yes, Greg the actor on Twitter. And then there's a dark under slash under slash seductions that's on Twitter as well.

Dave Bullis 53:08
So Greg, Greg Travis, I want to say thank you so much for coming on again. I always learn a lot from my guests. And you know, Greg, you've continued that, that line of of education. And I, you know, this has just been a phenomenal interview, especially because I don't get enough actors on that's that's the case usually, you know, a lot of screenwriters, a lot of directors, a lot of producers. I don't get enough actors on here. Every everybody. It's Dave Bullas calm, where you can find all the show notes, and I will link to everything that Greg and I discussed in the show notes. Greg Travis, I want to say thank you so much for coming on, and I wish you the best with darks. And

Greg Travis 53:44
Thank you, Dave. I really appreciate it. Good luck with everything.

Dave Bullis 53:48
Oh, thank you, sir. And if you ever feel like you want to come back on, I would love to have you on any time. I really look forward to see what you're going to do in the future.

Greg Travis 53:55
Absolutely thanks, Dave. Appreciate it.

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