Podcast | Bulletproof Screenwriting

BPS 462: Finding Your Way into Film Without Film School with David Powers

March 12, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

On today’s episode, we welcome David Powers, a filmmaker whose journey into the industry proves that there is no single roadmap into cinema—only curiosity, persistence, and a willingness to learn by doing. David’s path didn’t begin in film school or on a studio lot. It started with a fascination for movies, professional wrestling, and the simple question every filmmaker eventually asks: how do they make this?

Originally studying business and marketing, David found himself increasingly disconnected from a traditional academic path. Movies—especially horror and cult cinema—became his gateway into understanding storytelling, tone, and genre. That curiosity deepened after attending the New York Asian Film Festival for the first time, where he was exposed to films, filmmakers, and storytelling traditions he’d never encountered before. Watching these movies didn’t just entertain him—it ignited a desire to understand what was happening behind the camera.

Rather than returning to school, David took advice that changed everything: go to set and learn the job firsthand. Within months, he found himself working on productions, absorbing how crews function, how decisions are made, and how problems are solved in real time. That hands-on education quickly led him into production work with independent professional wrestling promotions, where he learned camera operation, coverage, and storytelling under pressure—often from ladders, scaffolding, or whatever setup was available.

Those early experiences taught David a lesson many filmmakers learn the hard way: waiting for perfect conditions is a trap. Early shoots were done with borrowed or outdated gear, but the work got made. Feedback came fast and sometimes blunt, but it shaped his instincts. Each mistake became a tool, not a setback. As David puts it, filmmaking teaches you how to fail—and how to get better because of it.

Alongside set work, David began volunteering with the New York Asian Film Festival, initially helping wherever he could. Over time, that consistency turned into trust, and trust turned into responsibility. Today, he serves as Operations Manager for the festival, helping coordinate events, guests, screenings, and logistics. His rise within the organization wasn’t fueled by ambition alone—it came from showing up, asking for more responsibility, and genuinely caring about the experience of both filmmakers and audiences.

The conversation also explores burnout—an inevitable topic for anyone who has worked long days on low-budget sets. David speaks candidly about projects where poor planning, miscommunication, or ego made the work unsustainable. Over time, he learned the importance of saying no, reading contracts carefully, and trusting his instincts. Experience taught him that not every opportunity is worth taking, and longevity requires discernment as much as passion.

Yet stepping back didn’t mean walking away. Through the festival, David stayed connected to cinema in a healthier, more meaningful way—curating experiences, supporting filmmakers, and keeping the creative spark alive. Recently, he’s returned to directing through NYAFF Chat, a talk-show-style series that keeps the festival engaged year-round and puts him back behind the camera with renewed clarity.

Ultimately, David Powers represents the filmmaker who learns by moving, not waiting. His story is a reminder that film careers are built sideways as often as they are built forward—and that sometimes the path back to creativity begins with protecting your love for the craft.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:30
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 0:41
My next guest is a filmmaker. He's working pro wrestling. Worked with the Ultimate Warrior again. I feel like I just said this, and he's also a staffer at the New York Asian Film Festival. He actually hosted his own podcast as well, called the turnbuckle throwbacks with guests. David Powers. So Dave, thanks all for coming on the podcast.

David Powers 1:04
Thank you for having me Dave.

Dave Bullis 1:04
No, it's been quite an eventful day. I may have actually

David Powers 1:04
An understatement. After that movie,

Dave Bullis 1:04
I might have accidentally shown you a gay porn, and I'm sorry,

David Powers 1:04
Bigfoot porn zero.

Dave Bullis 1:04
Well, in the in my defense, I didn't think DB Cooper versus Bigfoot was going to be a euphemism for a gay porn.

David Powers 2:38
Well, first of all, I didn't know who DB Cooper was or is, and that, you know, that title doesn't really, like, give away, like, Hey, this is gonna be, like, most awkward movie, one of the most awkward movies ever made.

Dave Bullis 2:51
Yeah, it was pretty awkward. There was no story, and it was a bunch of shirtless guys in the woods just kind of walking around,

David Powers 3:00
Well, you know, like I was telling you, like, oh, you know, this movie seems like it's like, you know, go in the same direction as, like a lot of other, like, you know, crappy B movies like Birdemick, you know, where there's like, a, just, like a driving scene that's like, in real time, you know, guy, they're filming like, every single turn the car is making. And, you know, there's this, like, shirtless dude in the woods just walking around, and it's like, 18 minutes later, finally arrives to a house, and then like, other shirtless dudes come out of the house and invite Him in. It's and it's just kind of like, like, oh, you know that's that's really like, stupid and funny. And then it just continues, and there's no story. And I even told you the Fast forward several times, and it just keeps getting awkward.

Dave Bullis 3:42
We fast forward it through 20 minutes, and it was funny, too. The when all those guys were coming out of the house, it was like a clown car. Yeah, it was like, more shirtless guys get fit in this house. It was just unbelievable that somebody actually thought that was gonna be a passable movie. I actually wonder how this is actually being marketed and

David Powers 4:02
Or if it's even being marketed? Yeah, exactly. Well, I'm sure it's being marketed somewhere, but not to anything that we would actually look at. Because, well, first of all, there's like Bigfoot is just like walking, you know, stalking through the woods, yeah? And, you know, there's these shirtless dudes, you know, even they're interacting with one another awkwardly, having like, these conversations that just like, they're not conversations, and it's just big wood, Bigfoot, you know, you know, peeking into their house. So it's like, Bigfoot a pervert too. Like, what's

Dave Bullis 4:37
They're the second floor, and He's peeking into the windows, so he's up on his ladder. He's like on the side of the house, like clutching on or hanging with him. It's almost like an animal house when, when they got the ladder, looked at the girls,

David Powers 4:52
But it's a Bigfoot looking at a bunch of shirtless dudes, exactly that are continuously changing from shorts to pants. Yeah, in public. Or in the house, yes,

Dave Bullis 5:03
Lots of toy gun play, lots of them in the in the looking in the mirror, lots of walking, lots of nothing.

David Powers 5:10
They supposed to be like a turkey shoot going on, and like they find bones in the woods, and it looks like somebody's like leftover KFC, yeah, or Popeyes or something.

Dave Bullis 5:19
And for all the people who got killed the gore level was like, less than one.

David Powers 5:24
There was no Gore, yeah. Like, he's like, slashing somebody in the face, and they make, like, a kind of, like, there's like a Foley Sound for, like, face flashing, and it's just like, a guy falling back into the wood, back into like a pool with like, no blood, and he's dead.

Dave Bullis 5:38
Yeah, sounds about right. So what would you give DB Cooper versus Bigfoot on a scale of one to a million? God, like, negative a million? Negative a million? Yeah, I would say at least, probably negative 999,000

David Powers 5:51
No, there's like, lots of like these, like lost films, you know, all over the world. And, you know, there is people trying to find, you know, was it lon Chaney's, you know, London at midnight? Like, that's only stills of it. And, you know, imagine you can just find whatever computer this guy has this shitty movie on and just delete it. So then it's, like, completely lost,

Dave Bullis 6:11
Yeah, yeah, it's completely lost forever, yeah. So let's never talk about dB Cooper versus Bigfoot.

David Powers 6:19
Ah, yeah. I somebody asks you've never seen it. You know? It's just like some things you can't unsee. Let's hopefully, like, I get hit by something very hard, and forget that I saw this movie. Yeah, we'll never speak about again.

Dave Bullis 6:35
So, Dave, yeah, so that we've been friends for a while, yes, and we actually met through social media, yes. And now you're here in Casa de bolas for the podcast. Yes. I wanted to ask before we get to how we met and everything else, well, even though I just told the story about how we met through social media, yes, but, you know, it's a question I always ask, and I always want to get to the start of this, and to always get to the start of when you sort of got bit by all of this. So you were in college, correct? Did you go to college for for film?

David Powers 7:06
Initially, I was going for business and marketing, and, you know, there's just got to a point where, you know, just didn't know where any of it was going. You know, had no, you know, particular, you know, end game or goal or anything in mind. And it was just, like, a really frustrating experience, like, for a lot of people. And I always, always wanted to work in, like, entertainment, like, when I was younger. I've always been a big pro wrestling fan, as you know. Oh yeah, I know that. You know you're wearing your Ultimate Warrior shirt. I'm wearing my Rick Martel shirt.

Dave Bullis 7:39
Yeah, seriously, I I wore this Ultimate Warrior shirt for you. Yes, you run the stud plexes, but we'll get to all that.

David Powers 7:45
Yeah, just, but which is another, like, like, an ominous, like, perverted, like, name, well, maybe we could talk about that later. I just show, like, bad wrestling videos and stuff like on Facebook through secret group and but anyway, that's neither here nor there. But, you know, was interested in in film and entertainment and stuff like that. Because, you know, just growing up like watching pro wrestling and, you know, I got into movies through watching a lot of horror movies, like Nightmare on Elm Street, like, my parents just watch Freddy cougar and have fun kid and, yeah, and in, you know, getting and actually, like, in high school, like, I was, like, a huge fan of black exploitation movies, oh yeah. Like, I remember seeing a clip of dolemite movie, The Great White hype. And it's such, like a, like a weird movie to kind of be introduced to something. But I remember, like, see, actually, no, that wasn't even in high school. That was, like before high school, like junior high, or something like that, where I first saw dolemite. And I was so enamored by, like, the horrible karate from this quick clip of dole might in the Great White hype. I'm like, I have to see this movie. This is like, like he's Rudy Ray Moore, you know, God rest his soul. Like he's, you know, trying, like he's not, like, in the best shape ever, and trying to lift his leg to do a karate kick, not making any contact with this guy. And he was, like, a thug falling into, like a trunk of a car. I'm like, even as a kid, I was like, like, I know this is not good, but it's funny, yeah, and, and I want to know, like, what, you know, what movie is this? And, like, how did, how was this even made? Who created it? And I don't know, just like that, that curiosity, kind of, you know, lingered on and back in 2010 I got to go to my first ever New York Asian Film Festival, which I currently work for now and just watching some of these movies, like, some of the genre movies, some of the rom coms and like, I was being exposed to a lot of different like, stuff that I never previously saw, and it just bugged the hell out of me. Like, how the hell they make this like, from like, the simplest ones, the more complicated ones, like, I know, you know, from what little I knew about, like, entertainment and, you know, filmmaking, I know there's a camera. I know that there's, like, a bunch of people behind the camera. But what the hell are they doing? What are they all doing? Like, when you watch like a TV show or movie that has like, like a film element to it, like there's somebody filming a movie. Like you always see, like people walking back and forth, and, you know, they're moving stuff and hearing stuff, and it's just kind of like, what are they all doing? And, you know, actually, from attending the New York Asian Film Festival like that, curiosity. Just like, like, I was like, Okay, I have to figure this out. And actually, six months later, like, I actually ended up on a film set. And once, once I got on, it was just like, like, a friend of a friend who knew somebody who was a DP, and I was like, questioning, like, like, I'm thinking about going back to school, maybe, like, a film school, or something like that. And this friend of mine was just like, Nah, don't even waste your time. Like, I know somebody who's a DP, you can learn all that stuff on set. I'm like, wait, what? Like, I don't have to go to a school and pay them, like, tons of money, and spend another four years to get a diploma so I can do something, like, I could just do this, like I can learn this, like on the job. And he's like, Yeah, sure. And sure enough, he was right and, and, you know, just getting onto a film set, just seeing what people were like, figuring out what people were doing. It's, it blew my mind, and, you know, I got the bug instantly. And it's just like, I want to, I know I'm not going to be like, doing everything that everybody's doing on set, but I want to learn what these guys are doing and hopefully make a living out of it, if possible.

Dave Bullis 12:19
Yeah. And honestly, your friend was right, by the way, because the honestly, it's like this podcast, it's basically, it is an audio film school. If we were talking about, you know, we were, you know, eating or whatever, or when you first got here, I forget whatever we were talking about, yeah, it's basically, you know, you have a lot of options. Now, people have options, you know, people who listen to this podcast know, I'm not a big fan of college. I become a fan of college less and less, yeah, just because the promise doesn't deliver. I mean, you're taught from, from when you're like, you know, in kindergarten or first grade, you have to go to college, you get a good job, you have to have that diploma to get whatever. You get it, and then you realize, holy crap, that's like, there's a gluttony of people with the same degree in the field, yeah. And it's just like, do I really even need this? Like, you know, do I really need this to do? Like, hell, I have a degree in business, and, I mean, I've never, I, honest to God, I've learned so much more outside of college. Yeah. It's like James alter always says, Do you really need to pay $200,000 to learn how to learn? No, exactly.

David Powers 13:20
And there's also something that he, you know, speaks about, like, in depth to, especially like his, like, anti college stuff. It's like, there's a lot of like, you know, you know things in real life that you won't learn in college, like, like, how to fail. Like, there's no class on like, failing. Like, everybody's trying not to fail in college. And if you fail, that's a bad thing. But in real life, ever again. But in real life, you know, especially in filmmaking, like, it's kind of like, the more you fuck up, like, the more you learn. Yes, and in real life, you know, you really do have to screw up to to learn and to, you know, hopefully not make those same mistakes, yeah?

Dave Bullis 14:01
And when you do fail, you can, you know, there's a saying that calm waters do not a good sailor make, yeah? So if you're just always smooth sailing and all these calm waters and everything's just copacetic, and whatever anybody can do that, you don't need that any, anybody, any, you don't even need sailor training. You know what I mean, you could just put that ship and just steer it away. But when the waters start getting very bad, the waters get all choppy, and then you're fighting tidal waves, and then you're fighting Krakens and all sorts of stuff, and you have scurvy that Bigfoot and Bigfoot, yeah? And that's when you have to know, oh, my God, thank God. Yeah. This is teaching you something, yeah, kind of like, you know what Nietzsche says, whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger, absolutely. So it's kind of like one of those things, and you know, and honestly, and to Dave, with so many film productions out there and with all this other stuff, you can just go on YouTube. If I was in high school right now, even in middle school right now, and I looked up films and stuff like that, or I looked up what was going on in my in. My area, wherever the hell I lived in the world. I mean, you could find a ton of other people doing the exact same thing and go, Hey, you know, you're shooting a film maybe next weekend. Or they're looking for people. Go to my local film office and just see about that. You know, one thing I want to tell people is, if you want to go to college, go to college. If you ask what you already said on honestly, but I would always recommend this, take a gap year high school to college, take that gap year and just do a ton of stuff, like we were talking about earlier. If there's something that you want to do in your life and it's itching you constantly, and you're like, god damn it, I you know, I really want to go to wrestling school. I really want to go make a film. I really want to do, go do it. Yeah? Like, before it's too late. And too late is when you're when you're dead, yeah, that's why class, yeah, too late,

David Powers 15:43
Because you could still be a wrestler. Like, if you're 80, chances are gonna get, like, really injured, but probably, like, after one bump in wrestling school. But, yeah, I totally agree. Like, if you if there's, like, a niche that you want to scratch, just scratch it. You know, there's like, so many people that try to say, like, oh, I don't have any regrets or anything like that. Everybody has like, some sort of regret. Like, you can go on social media and see, like, all these different, you know, entrepreneurs like Gary V and Tim Ferriss and all that, and in the rock to the other and, like, every single post is like, positive, and it's like, it can't be that way. There's there's got to be like, something that they regret it, or something like that, you know, like, there's everybody loves, especially on social media, posts in there, and their W's, their wins. So, and I don't know just, just from my experience in in real life, you know, there's more losses than are our wins. And in that just happens with everyone. It's not like, exclusive to certain people. And I feel like if there's like, a certain thing that you want to do, especially going into film, as crazy of a world as it is, and as much like, it makes zero sense to get into still do it. It's, it's, you know, you know, like, you know, me from, from doing warrior university with the Ultimate Warrior and that was just like, such a, like a random thing for me. And that was just like one of the stops on my film journey. And, you know, I just took, like a thing that I was really curious about. And, you know, I was like, You know what, I can do this? And I gave it a shot. And, you know, so many like opportunities that I would never have experienced, like, you know, doing warrior university with Ultimate Warrior that same year, I got to work on the Victoria's Secret show for my first time, and they brought me back a second year. And just like doing a music video for a friend of mine, like just having, like people, like giving me an opportunity, trusting me to do something that you know people wish that they could do. So, yeah, absolutely. Like, if there's any sort of curiosity that you have about life or something that you wish to do, like, do it. Just don't, like, keep thinking about it,

Dave Bullis 18:02
Yeah. And that's why I always say, like, people always wait till they're prepared. You're never gonna be prepared. It's ever gonna be the right time. You have to, what I would say is hedge your bets muscles as much as possible, yeah, and then just plunge right into it, yeah, and see what you can do. I mean, like, I'm not saying quit your job and you don't know, like that, like my, like, I was telling you before about my, about my one friend who wanted to go to wrestling school, and he kept saying finding excuses. And I said, dude, like, you know, if you want to do it, just do it. Yeah. And honestly, I have friends who want to make films, and they always talk about these ideas. Like, dude, if you have a screenplay in your head, just start running it down. Yeah. Go, go out honestly. Writers Duet is my new jam. Okay, that's my, that's what's duet, yeah, that's my new that's my new thing. Okay, writer's Duet is a, is a screenwriting software, the best screenwriting software. It's all cloud based. I held by the thumbs because I always like to have a physical copy. However, here's what writers Duet is, just it blew me away. It comes with an actual like, not only is it cloud based, but you can download the actual like software for it, so now it syncs up everything. So like, let's just say you do want to go offline, you can actually download your scripts, write them offline, then as soon as you're back with internet, it'll automatically re sync it. That's amazing. So see that that's key, because I'm always like, well, what if I'm somewhere and I don't have internet? Yeah, that it just answered my question for me, right there. I have no more excuses, so I just bought it, and it's better than, pretty much everything I've ever actually it is better than everything I've ever used. I've used for is now, the future is now, and it is voters duet, because I've used Celtics. I've used fade in final draft. I've used Sophocles. I did. I say Sophocles twice. Maybe I did. Oh, but anyway, I've used them all, and this isn't a commercial, by the way, for others to wet. Sometimes people ask me if I get paid for some of this stuff. I'm like, No. Like, honestly, I just, I just, I just, but that works. Yeah, I do. Like, like, I just told people stuff that works, and I will. I somewhat like some things, if it's on Amazon, you. Oh, There's a 99% chance if you go to davebullis.com and you see a link, 99% chance that it's an affiliate link. But at least I'm looking straight with that. Yeah, but, like, but, but hey, at least it's something I actually use, but like, writers do it, or whatever else you hear me talk about, whether you know, whatever it is, I make $0 off of that. I'm just telling you. It just comes up in the course of conversation. And, you know, that's what we were talking about, too, is you had an itch. You liked the you know, you wanted to get into film, you know, I want to hear more too, about the but the New York Asian Film Festival, because it sounds freaking awesome, yeah, and that's the festival you were talking about a little bit earlier, yeah, where it's just like, you know, as you know, we're both huge Asian cinema fans. Yes, I freaking love Asian cinema. I think it is just, you know,

David Powers 20:54
Well, I know you love Tarantino, see, then you gotta love, right?

Dave Bullis 20:57
You gotta love Ringo lamb. You gotta like to catch a Mackay. You gotta love chan Park. I mean, you know these, I mean, Takashi Mackay might be one of the most dynamic, diverse filmmakers ever, because he has made films like, something like, maybe the audition or visitor queue, and then he makes something like, what is it? 13 samurai. Is it? Yeah, 13 assassins, 13 assassins, yeah. And, and I was like, you know, see, it's something like that. When he's just got any, any so freaking political

David Powers 21:33
He even makes, like, he's made children's films too, yeah, yeah. And it's just like, This guy, man, he's just all over the place. Yeah, he's, plus, he's one of these filmmakers who he'll do, like, I don't know, like 10 or more productions a year. So yeah, maybe not all of them are good. But he's constantly, you know, working his craft.

Dave Bullis 21:53
He must be non stop just working, just turning it out. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, just back to the New York Asian Film Festival, you know. So what were your first experiences with that? And I mean, because now you're actually a full fledged staff member,

David Powers 22:07
Yeah, I'm Operations Manager with them now, after some years of filmmaking and being a bit hated from any experience, you know, one of the things that like, always, like kept me grounded in film and, you know, kept that fire going. Was the New York Asian Film Festival. I heard about it back originally, in 2009 I was taking a Japanese class, and there was just, like, some guy that came in who was, like, former student of, you know, that professor, and he mentioned, like, oh, there's like, some film festival show in like, Asian movies. And he was like, There's one called vampire girl versus Frankenstein girl with my background that I already mentioned. I was like, Whoa, where? Like, he's like, yeah, it's called the New York Asian Film Festival. I think at that time, they were like, at IFC. And I was like, after this class, I'm going on my phone and I'm looking it up. I'm signing up for any mailing list that they have and whatever screenings they have. I'm going to all of them, because previously, you know, now, whenever I would go to a movie, would just be like a, like a random, like a, not a random, but like, you know, your standard AMC, Lowe's whatever, yeah, to see whatever Hollywood movies are out there, usually for, like, for anything like, international or, you know, just like an independent film, like, I didn't think that those would be at, like, an actual movie theater. Like, I would just go to Best Buy to check out something that wasn't going to be in a movie theater. Or, you know, back in the day, you know, Blockbuster and so blew my mind that there was a festival for this. Blew my mind that they were like theaters that screen these movies. So it's like, I it was like a whole new world. Was like, you know, opening up. I'm like, Oh, my God, there's this. This exists. So, you know, true to my word, like, as soon as that class was over with like, I went on my phone, looked it up, and I found out that the 2009 edition was over, won't want so I signed up for everything mailing lists, got on their Facebook, liked it, and patiently waited for a whole year to go by, for it to come back. So 2010 was the first year I got to go, and their main guest was Sam, oh, hung Oh, wow, yeah. And Simon Yam, who's also like an, you know, bunch of you know, Ringo lamb, you know category three, you know, Hong Kong movies. And I was like, wow, you know, like, I've seen these guys, like, in movies, and they're, they're here, like, they're guests, like they're here to talk about these movies. And didn't know too much about the festival. I didn't know too much about, like, you know, some of. These directors or actors, but new New York Asian Film Festival kind of covered everything from, like, indie to, you know, big budget, you know, films for, you know, all these different Asian countries. So, you know, it just rolled the dice and, you know, picked up their catalog like a program book. When I went to my first screenings, and I just, like, looked through it, and I'm like, this looks cool. This looks this has a badass title. Let me check it out. Rom coms, I don't really watch those, but I'm gonna watch them now. Like, which ones you should watch? 2010, I don't remember, because I was like, maybe 11 years ago. Maybe, was it like, drink, drink, drunk, or maybe My Sassy Girl? Or, No, My Sassy Girl was earlier than that. Oh, my God, I'm trying to once I figure it out, I'll let you know, okay, but I'll link to in the show notes. But I, you know, I just watched like, all these different kind of movies. And there was, like, some stuff that I wouldn't even like bother with. Like, there was one documentary on a Japanese folk artist called Live tape. And it, I forgot the name of the the artists I should remember, because I have the soundtrack at home, but it was literally this guy, you know, starts off walking in, you know, one of one space, and he just starts strumming on his guitar, gets into song, and then he meets up with a band member in some other part of town and goes into another song, and it's all one shot. And they're walking through like, the town you know, him meeting, you know, one band member at a time, and then at the end of the film, like they all meet together, and, you know, get into the last song, and I'm like, wow, this is one shot. And I think I was telling you, like, beforehand, I was like, you know, what's behind the camera? How are they filming this? How do they make it, you know, look the way it does, you know, how are they able to do this in one shot for like, over an hour and have it look the way it looks? Yeah? So just like watching these movies, just kind of like, you know, being a being a big film fan to begin with, because I was, you know, like I mentioned, I was really into black exploitation movies and just other kinds of film and anything that really piqued my interest. Like, I have this like habit of, like, I have to dig as deep as possible, go further down the rabbit hole to find out. Like, you know, what is this all about? You know, what? How did it start? And, like, yeah, how is it what's the community, you know, like, and, you know, notice that there were, like, volunteers and stuff like that. So I'm like, I have to work for the festival next year. So I ended up volunteering. And now I'm actually like, I've volunteered so volunteers so often and been so consistent. Like, now I'm like, part of staff.

Dave Bullis 27:51
So when do they offer you part of staff? Like, did they did somebody there finally say, like, look, this powers kid is really got some Gump shit. He's got some gunk. Yeah, I'm gonna promote him. No, but like, what was the like? Was there a final thing where somebody finally said, Look, Dave, we're just gonna promote you to this for next festival. Or is there anything like that? Or was it like, sort of, they mean, you could get you were consistent, you were always there. So I'm sure, I'm sure somebody had to know something, right?

David Powers 28:19
It's kind of hard to say, because it just kind of happened, like organically. It's kind of like you're just there so long that they just kind of give you a title. Because, believe it or not, you know, despite the caliber of guests that we get, you know, we've had people like Jackie Chan and was our last last year's big guest was Lee Byun Hoon, who was in Magnificent Seven. And, you know, despite getting, like, some of these big names, like, it's really, like, a our team is really tiny. There's, like, a, probably less than 10 people that program it, and probably less than 10 people that are just part of the staff, like, helping out with, like, you know, random stuff. Like, one of the things I'm doing this year is event planning. I don't have too much experience in vent planning, but I sure as hell I'm gonna have it this just this summer. Thankfully, the person that I'm working with, like, has done that before, so, so we're not like, Hmm, let's get some string cheese and toasty So, but it's a really small team that makes this this big festival, like, come together. And really, I think you know me coming into the position that I am with, with operations management, it's just really like, I've just been there for such a long time, kind of like with a lot of the films I worked on in the past, and like some of the guests that you've had on the past, you know, they want to do something so bad, and they want to figure out how it works, like, you know, just want to do like, every year that came by that I was volunteering, it's like, you know, what else can I do besides volunteering? I just asked for more and more tasks. And, you know, because it's such a small team, like they were like, okay, won't you do this?

Dave Bullis 29:05
I mean, yeah, everyone knows each other, right? Yeah, you know, event planning. I've actually done a few like events and stuff like that. Yeah, my tips are always going to be, always, always, always try to get, like, some kind of deal whenever you can. And what I mean by that is I would always, I always pitched quality, quantity over quality. Is the very rare time I actually, like, for instance, alcohol companies. Yeah, I would pitch them constantly. And eventually the vodka companies are huge, and sponsoring shit, even if you can't get money, even a free bottle of something, is a pretty good thing, because you give that away. And it's always, it always looks pretty cool. You can put up their stuff, or you can just trick it yourself in a parking lot and just, yeah,

David Powers 30:59
One of our sponsors this year is same beer sponsor from last year, singtal. Oh, yeah. So they're gonna be one of our, like, sponsors. So we got the free beer. No, they got the beer hook up.

Dave Bullis 31:11
Nice, yeah. See that stuff like that. He that stuff like, you know, just getting one sponsor and getting another sponsor. I mean, honestly, that's, that's the whole thing.

David Powers 31:20
One of the years we had, like, McDonald's as a sponsor, because I was, like, looking was, like, looking, because I had, I was been helping out with the Wikipedia page, and I asked for, like, all the old programs I remember, like, McDonald's was one of our sponsors. I can't even imagine why McDonald's, I don't know. Maybe they had the the Mulan Szechuan sauce, or something like,

Dave Bullis 31:38
Have you been seeing Rick and Morty? By the way, have you seen the newest one? Not the newest season? I've seen, like, some past episodes, the show is incredible. Yeah, that's the whole session. Yeah, yeah. He's got the obsession with Yeah, with that. And just want to bring it up just in case. But yeah, McDonald's, I'm just like, What? What the hell you know, honestly, did you ever get, like, any local restaurants that say, Hey, maybe I can cater for maybe one event, and then maybe the guy down the street cater for another event that way, not killing the small businesses, and they can sort of get something in return as well.

David Powers 32:08
We're working on like stuff like that for this year. I don't know too much about it, because I can't talk too much about it either, so you'll find out if you told me you'd have to kill me, right? Yeah, or make you watch DB Cooper and Bigfoot again?

Dave Bullis 32:22
Well, I thought we were ever going to talk about that again? You have to men and black me and give me one of those, those phaser things. You're just like, I don't remember anything

David Powers 32:30
Well, for the sake of punishment,

Dave Bullis 32:35
Was that the worst we've ever seen?

David Powers 32:37
Oh, man, for me, it's not actually, no, that's not the worst movie ever seen. I'm trying to remember I've seen so I've seen some, like, really horrible ones, because, you know, just sometimes, just, like, curious about something, I think, like, the worst one was, like, an old school like, Mexican horror movie, like, about an Aztec mummy. And, like, the mummy's not, like, hardly in the movie. And, like, it's, it's like, all, like, there's like a voiceover talking about, like, every scene that's going on, and there's people talking. It's like, let the people talk. I don't need a voiceover. Just, just let these people talk. And then I think, like, the way that the mummy is killed, like, is, like a car runs over it. I'm like, Really, this, this, this creature comes back from the dead after 1000s of years, and it gets run over by a car to be killed.

Dave Bullis 33:23
So they didn't have cars in Egypt. They just, you know, had hooks up the brain, you know, or if something goes to get the brain,

David Powers 33:29
So apparently, this mummy can come back to life, but if it gets hit by a car, it's, it's a done deal.

Dave Bullis 33:36
But sorry, that's a good too far off as we talk about DB Cooper and stuff now, yeah, but just to go back to the Asian Festival, you know, I'm glad to hear that it's constantly growing, yeah. So what is this year's festival?

David Powers 33:46
It's gonna be happening June 30 through July 15 at Film Society of Lincoln Center, which also is like hosts like other festivals like the New York Film Festival. And last couple days, we're gonna be at the SVA theater on 23rd street.

Dave Bullis 34:03
Cool. And who's the big guest like this year? Because I know you've had Ringo Lamb, Jackie Chan, you said,

David Powers 34:10
Haven't announced any guests. Oh, how do I know? So we'll have to do something after Okay, so I will update this as soon as you make an announcement. We'll be announcing it very soon, actually, okay, good. Because a little bit early with promoting it, well, not too early, but still early. Yeah.

Dave Bullis 34:25
What are we halfway through May? Yeah? So, yeah, okay, about a month. Yeah, we got about a month. Yeah, that's a good time to get some promotion out, yeah? But, yeah, I'll do this as well, because you're actually the next episode in the gate. So I just, I was like, Well, I guess I'll update it. Yeah, okay, when it when you announce the guest? So absolutely. So you know, what are some let me ask you. We talk about networking and stuff. You and I talk about all this stuff. What are some of the things that you've taken away from doing the festival about networking? I mean, I'm sure you've seen people who are awful networkers. Oh yeah, cards out there. Everybody, yeah? And there's good networkers who are almost like, and not to use the Asian theme too much, but like a ninja, where it's like, you know, they're just like, How dare you Yeah, I know exactly right into stereotypes, yeah, but no, like, the they're basically like, you might not know who they are, yeah, but everyone seems to know who they are, you know, yeah, like, like, Hey, do you know? You know, maybe I don't know John Wong, do you know John Wong, oh, yeah, yeah, I know John Wong, have you ever actually met him? I just have heard of him. Yeah. What? I mean, that type of guy. So, I mean, have you seen some of something like that at the festival? What are some of the things you've taken away from it as well,

David Powers 35:38
Just from working, just in film in general actually has helped me out a lot, you know, working at the festival, because we do have these, like, high profile guests, and you never really know how, like, you know, every everyone in general, when you meet them in real life, they're all different. And, you know, when we have, like, big name guests or smaller name guests, it's just kind of like, I just treat them like humans, because at the end of the day, like, I'm not gonna try to pitch these guys an idea, like, or like, Hey, could you get me a job? You know, I'm not gonna be like, begging Jeff give me a job. Like, Gil from Simpsons, get me a job.

Dave Bullis 36:14
Oh, look good. And for old Gil,

David Powers 36:16
Give Gil a lick. Come on. Like, no, no. Like, usually, actually, one of the many jobs I've had in the past was to bodyguard, you know, some of these guys really, who'd you bodyguard for? Jackie Chan was the one that one, that one's actually kind of a stretch, like, it still was like a bodyguard thing. But it was literally like, we need you to, we need you to walk Mr. Chan over to his car. And it was like, it's like, five feet away, or something like that.

Dave Bullis 36:45
Has anything ever happened? We better, like, put somebody down.

David Powers 36:47
No, actually, for the Jackie Chan thing, there were, there were, like, some, like, autograph hounds. There were rounds. And it was kind of strange, because this, we had him for like, a press conference, and it was just like, it's not one of those kind of things that you're gonna, like, find out. Gonna, like, find out about, or it was really, like, low key, and it's like, you know, it's just thinking to myself, like, how did these people know that he was going to be here? So, you know, never estimated the power of a stalker. Yeah. So seriously, man. But luckily, there was, like, me and another guy, and, you know, we were, they were just like, a bunch of kids wanting autographs. So it wasn't that hard to, you know, put them down. But, you know, at that time, like they were like a like an ant, like an animal rabies, but my face, I'm like, no kid, yeah. You know, from my experience in professional wrestling, Power Bomb, the kid on the concrete.

Dave Bullis 37:44
You gave me the rock bottom and the Stokoe sign,

David Powers 37:47
yeah, give him the Super Kick, and now give him the sleeper hold and cut his hair afterwards. But anyway, but it wasn't anything too crazy. And, you know, just one thing that I learned, and, you know, just I learned in real life, it's just like, you know, some people just don't want to be bothered, and situation like that, you know, just do what I was told, bring him to his car, let him get in the car and drive away. And, you know, whenever I've, like, dealt with like guests in the past, you know, I just give them their space. You know, if they want to talk to me, they could talk to me. If not, then fine. Like, there's been, like, there was, like, one really famous Korean actor, Lee Jung Jae, and, you know, there were some other big name Korean, you know, stars that were there too, and they were outside of the theater. They just wanted to sit down at a table and talk. So I let them sit there and talk and me and like one other person was helping me out just watch the area. There was, like, some people that like, Lee Jong Jae and like, yeah, give them their space. And, you know, you know some, thankfully, you know, some of these people are kind enough to just, Hey, let these guys, like, chill out. They're human beings, you know, let them, let them chat with one another, because I'm sure, like, with their schedules and stuff like that, you know, seeing people that you work with or worked with in the past, you know, they just want to hang out. And there's a screening for one of you John Jay's films, and he just wanted to stand in the back and watch it. So, you know, I just, you know, stood there with him, let him do his thing. I didn't ask him any questions or bother him, and at the end of it, he just said, thank you. And for me, that was validation. But there's been times where I've, you know, bodyguarded, like some of these guys, and there's one in particular, Ringo Lamb, who is just kind of like, Who the hell is this guy? Why is he following me around all the time? And then, like, at the end of it, we were like, best friends, and and I'm like, wow. Like, this guy was like, Who the hell, who the hell is this guy following me around? And, you know, at the end of it, like, I we actually, like, bumped into each other at a at a restaurant. And, you know, after one of the screenings, separately, separately, was he, like, you followed me here, too? Kid? No, no. Actually, by that time, like, he got, he, like, grown got grown accustomed to me, and he was like, hey, this guy's All right. And he actually got, like, he stood up from the table that he was at and went over to me and, like, shook my hand. Oh, and, you know, like, you know, said hi to, you know, the people that I was sitting with. So you might have, like, situations like that, but like, I never go out of my way to say, like, Here's my card. Like, I was at Victoria's Secret Fashion Show. You should hire me for stuff I know the Ultimate Warrior. Yeah?

Dave Bullis 40:55
Seriously? Well, because, well, at that point you didn't know the ultimate war that, yes, yeah. And so, so, well, at that point you had everyone at the table. You have to say, this is Ringo lamb.

David Powers 41:05
Oh, they already knew who he was. This is there were some of them were working with me at the festival. One of them was like a friend who flies out from from Austin. Her name is Christina. Hi, Christina. I'm sure she'll be listening. She better be listening. Yeah, I don't know who that is, but she's got to be listening. So, you know, she was hanging out, like, oh my god, ring a lamb. So, you know, it was, it was a big deal, and it was like, such a genuinely nice thing for him to do, like, I wasn't gonna go out of my way to, you know, to be a fan or mark out or anything like that.

Dave Bullis 41:34
Did anybody bring up the fact that city on fire is what? Let me change this around. Okay, that Reservoir Dogs is very similar to city on fire.

David Powers 41:45
No, you don't say, yeah, no, that wasn't brought up. I think because it's like such a like, I think at this point, especially if you're going to the festival, you probably already know that, yeah. So it was just kind of like a moot, you know, subject to bring up. Also, like, he, it was funny. He was very shy, like he didn't really want to do, he didn't want to do Q and A real or anything like that. Like, we did give him, like, a lifetime achievement award, and he didn't, he just said thank you. That was his speech. And it was funny, because he did have some, like, great stories, like in the back and stuff like that. But just, you know, he was a pretty shy guy, or just didn't want to, you know, you know, talk. I don't know, I don't know the specific reason, but it wasn't brought up. But I did ask, like, one of the programmers, like, hey, basically asking the same thing, like, Hey, is anybody? Well, I know people have asked that question, but I was like, oh, you know, what's his like, take on that. And it was just basically like, oh, well, we steal a lot of American ideas. So if you stole, if America steal one of our ideas, all right, that's cool, me. So it was just kind of like, you know, mutual, kind of like, respect, yeah, that's pretty cool, because essentially, that movie basically made Tarantino's career.

Dave Bullis 42:59
Oh yeah, absolutely. And then then Pulp Fiction was the was the sort of Death Blow, yeah. And I mean that in a good way, because that's a good one to combination. It's probably one of the best one two. I got into a discussion with this for for a film professor at Yale, because he we were asking, what the best one two combination of movies from a director, they have to be back to back, yeah, and that hat that has to be up there. He ended up contending that, oh, God, what was it that he said it was actually very tough to beat too. God, damn it. I forget, but when I our original show notes exactly official shows, I will link to it. I'll put like, this is what the hell I was talking about. But I forget what it was. I it wasn't. For some reason I keep wanting to say Sam to Sam Peckinpah movies, but it wasn't Peckinpah. It was. It may have been something it was. It was something else entirely, but I'll get, I'll put those in the show notes. Okay, time, and I'll wait and listen

David Powers 43:54
The breaking movies,

Dave Bullis 43:58
Which Claude Van Damme and and Boogaloo shrimp.

David Powers 44:02
Yes, yeah. It was a great guest on the Super Mario Brothers Super Show.

Dave Bullis 44:05
Yeah. You know that one guy, not, not, not Boogaloo shrimp, but the other guy, Shabadude, you know he's, like, apparently, a total fucking prick in real life.

David Powers 44:14
Well, with a name like shabadoo, like, either you're really, like, the greatest guy ever, or you're, you're cursing God for being named Shabadude.

Dave Bullis 44:21
I guess it's the latter, because apparently, like, I've had people who've met him and stuff, and they said he's just, like, even back then, they were like, he's just any the girl who was in break in, she said he she knew for the after, when they was like, Hey, we're gonna make a sequel. She's like, he better not be in it. Wow, apparently, because he's just so, like, I'm the best dancer out of all of us, and you better all,

David Powers 44:45
Well, I guess you gotta have quite an ego after being on the Super Mario Brothers super ship. Well, Boogaloo shrimp is apparently a good guy, yeah. I mean, you have to be with a game like Boogaloo shrimp. Yeah, come on.

Dave Bullis 44:54
So, so, I mean, you know, and it's great to be, you know, the Asian fest. Of all the New York Asian Film Festival, I'm just glad that there's actually festivals like that now. Yeah, they're becoming more and more prevalent. Because, honestly, man, like, there are some kick ass movies that are coming out from Asia, and sometimes you get buried, and Tarantino made, what was it Rolling Thunder? I think films or productions, yeah, it was going to be like, he's going to start showing these, apparently, it just sort of teetered off. Because, I think, yeah, it wasn't seeing the ROI Yeah, but I wanted to ask, though, did you ever get to see vampire girl versus Frankenstein?

David Powers 45:29
Yes, I did. Okay, God, I got it on like, DVD, like, I think, like the following year or something. Oh, right. That's actually, it was funny because I one of the friends that made through film, just, I guess, to get like, into like, you know, connecting with people and networking and stuff. I was watching the Sci Fi show face off, and there was, like, one, you know, I was starting to get into film. I was just really being like, as bold as possible, because it's just kind of like, Yeah, I saw this great opportunity to just grow as a person, to like, because I really like, held back on, you know, pursuing anything I was interested in, like a big wrestling fan, but I never went to wrestling school. Yeah, they did go to the Chikara pro first tryout. So really, yes, how's that go? I'm not a wrestler, but it was fun. Did you run the ropes? We didn't run the ropes. It was like, super, super basic.

Dave Bullis 46:24
Do they? Let me ask you, did they just, like, try to weed out everybody by making this just do, like, body weight calisthenics, like Hindu squats and running them? Yeah, we, we did

David Powers 46:33
that stuff. But it wasn't like 500 Hindu squats or anything like that. I essentially, like the gist that I got from it was like they were looking for new wrestlers, yeah, like, genuinely looking for new wrestlers. So they just started doing this so, you know, that they could find new talent. Yeah, cuz they were very, like, at the end of it, like, I could tell, like most people, like, including myself, were just there, just to, like, wonder what it's like, yeah, and I specifically was going because a friend of mine's, like, brother badly wanted to be a wrestler. So I'm like, you have to go through Chicago pro because they literally had the best like, trainers at that time. I'm sure they still do now, but like Mike Quackenbush, yeah, Mike Quackenbush, who's one of my favorite indie wrestlers, and Valley, wanted to be a wrestler. So I was like, you know, you got to go to this. And then I got, you know, another itch had to be scratched. So I was like, let me check this out at the end of it. Like the wrestlers on hand and everybody, they were like, almost like, strong arming people to do to like, we'll give you a discount, or something like that. But I was watching the Sci Fi show face off, and there was like one person on there named suley, who I was when getting into film. One of the things I, like promised myself is like, I have to align myself with people that are doing better than me for one thing, so I can learn from them and to, you know, find people that like I know I'm gonna work well with, and three people in the area. So I saw her on the show. Thought she was awesome, enjoyed her work. She was nearby. One of the key things that I heard her say on this show, or like in an interview, was that she was willing to work on local, like independent movies.

Dave Bullis 48:27
That's her kiss of that. That's right there. I got her. I got her. She's mine. And we always turn to guys a big chomping cigars, like, where he's, like, I got it Yes.

David Powers 48:37
And just thinking about the big money bags with the dollar sign on it, I'm making money Exactly. And I reached out to her, and it turned out like she was, you know, also, like, a big, like, Asian Film fan, despite her being Asian and but I found out, you know, from, you know, we, you know, scheduled time to meet up and just like, chat to see, like, hey, was this? Like, is this somebody I want to work with? And she mentioned that she was originally going to school for like medical, like prosthetics. And she mentioned she went to the New York Asian Film Festival in 2009 for vampire girl versus Frankenstein girl. And I think she met, like the director, one of the directors and SFX artists, nishimora, and she was like, after, I don't know if it was specifically seeing that movie or just like, seeing some other movies in general that kind of, like, put it over the top that she actually got to meet this guy in person. And I know it was like a turning point for her to, you know, go to the festival, meet this, meet, meet Nishimura, and, you know, decide like, hey, you know, I'm done with medical prosthetics. I want to do, you know, movie makeup. So, you know, we both had that like in common, that like the festival was kind of like. A light bulb, you know, for both of us, Like, hey, you know, there's, there's, you know, more to our day to day life than just you know, going to work or whatever you know, plans that we, you know, had at the time so and you know, just want to throw it out there. Like, like, if you see somebody, even if they're on TV or something like that, like, obviously be polite and very, you know, humble when you approach people, because it really is annoying. If you're like, Hey, you want to be my movie, or, Hey, can you work on my movie? Or, like, and there's just, like, no real, like, you know, plan behind asking them, other than like, Hey, can you do this for me?

Dave Bullis 50:48
Like, because there's no script, you know, you don't mean there's no funding. It's just like, it's, I know who probably gets it the worst, and he's not Asian, but it's Bruce Campbell, yeah, I imagine he probably gets it every single day. Like, yeah, should we be in my movie? Yeah. And they probably call mash too, yeah. Well, they do excited because they don't know, yeah, exactly right. And Brian Halloran Dante from clerks, yeah, it was great you're supposed to be here today. And he goes, I was actually there one day talking to him, yeah. And somebody actually walked up to him and said, Hey, Dante, you guys supposed to be here today. And he goes, Yeah, haven't heard that one a million times today, exactly.

David Powers 51:28
But you know, if there's, like, somebody that you want to work with, or somebody that you want to talk to genuinely, you know, I absolutely recommend doing that too, like it, you know, a lot of you know things that we do for the festival and, you know, things that I've done, you know, for my actually, here's a good story for you. When I was working with beyond wrestling, think the like, there was, like, one week where WWE had the Muppets as, like, the guests, like GM, or the guest host for raw, and the promoter Drew was, like, the Muppets on Raw. Like, well, that's, that's ridiculous. Like, so what is beyond gonna do you have Tommy wise Oh? And I was like, I can get a hold of him for you. And I think, like, Yeah, I think he said to be like, yeah, if you could do that, like, we'll see what we could do. And I actually got Tommy Wiseau from the room on the phone, like, the next day, and he was like, talking to me, like, what are you gonna do? Actually, the specific phrase that he said maybe about like 20 times on the phone call is. So what's the story? David, and like, I was like, oh my god, I have Tommy Wiseau on the phone, and he's interested in working for beyond wrestling, this independent wrestling organization in Rhode Island.

Dave Bullis 52:36
That should be like, the name of your book. So what's the story David?

David Powers 52:40
Yeah, in book forms, exactly.

Dave Bullis 52:43
So it's just, it's just an audio book. But, yeah, it was, so it's just, it's just funny, because, you know, wrestling sort of attracts a lot of different people. Yeah, I again, you know, for everyone listening to this, I as, you know, as I've said before, I have stopped watching wrestling years ago. I just talked about it now, yeah, because I just can't get into it anymore. And I mean, you, I haven't watched it in years upon years, probably since I graduated. Well, no, I probably stopped, maybe 2008 maybe somewhere around there, yeah, so. But like, I love all the old school stuff. I love talking about the old school stuff. And I know you and I use wrestling terms in everyday speech, yeah, just by, like, by by accident.

David Powers 53:22
Like, we're using, like, old Carney terms to people that have no idea what it means. Like, I'm really getting heat in on this person, like I was trying to sell this and, like, it's marking out. Like, wait, what are these people talking about?

Dave Bullis 53:34
Like, is he stiff in it? Was he taking liberties? Yeah. Like, big time, enough time. And I love that term. It's just and, like, he's a chopper, yeah? It's just stuff like that, like he's jobbing out to him tonight. It's just stuff like that. And it's just like, it's like, it's just funny stuff. When you when they don't know what they're talking about, yeah, but people very rarely, we were saying, they very rarely, will call you on it, and so they're just like, oh, yeah, because I think they kind of understand what you're trying to say

David Powers 54:01
It's funny because, like, I've never been, like, a big fan of, like, you know, inside talk, like, even for film, like, when I've been on set, like, somebody calls, like, a cable, a stinger. I'm like, yesterday, wait, see, there's a cable this. Call already? Sevens, yeah. I'm like, like, as much as I have, like, enjoyed film, like, I don't like, like, film insider terms, like Stinger like, just go all the cable. It's a cable. Look at it. It's a cable. It's, I know, you plug it into some got two stingers on the floor here, yeah? Like, come on, really,

Dave Bullis 54:29
No no. See 40 sevens, though, although we do have one clamp, we each have a clamp on here.

David Powers 54:34
Was it? Like, the, like, the clothes like, you know, clothes pins, yeah, and people call my bullets and stuff like that. And it's just kind of like, really, it's just kind of like, I'm sure for some people, like, hearing like, who've had conversations with me using wrestling terms of what is this guy talking about? Like, where this guy sounds really stupid, using me.

Dave Bullis 54:57
It's kind of like that movie brick, where they just, everyone kind of talks. Have you ever seen brick? There's Jason Gordon Levitt in it, and everyone talks like a 1920s gangster, but it's set in modern day, like, so what's the story about the dame? It's like, it's actually kind of funny, but grifted me. Yeah, exactly. Chisel. But we were talking about, you know, pro wrestling. How did you get involved? Because I think you said to me, your first shoot, your actual first introduction to film with a pro wrestling company, right?

David Powers 55:28
Yes, actually, my very first film, like shoot period, was with beyond wrestling. Actually, that's, I think I filmed with them for like, a year and a half or so, and I've actually had the opportunity to film an inter gender match with Sasha Banks before she was big. So in the video, the match is actually on YouTube. I think if you just like, type in like Sasha Banks, beyond wrestling, you'll find this, like, funny inter gender match with her in it, and me standing on a ladder filming it.

Dave Bullis 56:01
I want to make sure to find that link to that in the show notes. Yes, I just kicked the microphone. So everyone who's wondering what that noise was, I just have to kick the microphone.

David Powers 56:13
Yeah, but it's funny because, like, you know, trying to figure out how to, like, get into some of this stuff. I'm sure, for like, a lot of people, it's like, absolutely frustrating. It's like, like, you hear everybody else's story, and, you know, there's so many like, different avenues that people have got into it. It's not like something that like, like, just not like a step by step process to, you know, get on, you know, become a filmmaker, or, you know, have a specific title. Like, everybody finds their own way. And thankfully for film, you can really go, you can really get into it through like any means possible. And if you have, like, a desire to become like a director or writer or actor, whatever, you could start at any position and figure out your way through there, but with beyond. It was funny, because I always, like, even when I was a kid, I always hated people that had connections when I didn't have connections, or they would like, have, like, a stupid story where, like, I went into a supermarket and some person found me, like, you're my next star, and they went to Hollywood and became big, or something stupid, like, I had $4 in my pocket And I went to California and started in a production of hair, and then I became a big star that sounds like so unrealistic and funny enough, there was a gym by me, which I always knew that wrestlers like in the past, like Jimmy Snuka and I think, like ultimate war of like rowdy Piper, have gone to this gym, like, whenever they're in the area. Used to be a Gold's Gym, and it's been has it's gone through different owners over the years, so it's had several different names. But my dad just got me, like, a gym membership there, or something like, I think, yeah, he was going there too. So I should get a gym membership here. It's 20 bucks a month. I'm like, sounds good enough and funny enough. Like, I was wearing my chic pro, you know, hoodie, like, for a workout or something, and, and at that point in time, like, I didn't know if there was any wrestlers still going to this gym or anything like that. And, like, I just didn't even think about that or care. And you always hear about like, guys getting into the business from going to a gym, and some wrestlers like, Hey, you look like you should be in the business or something like that. And strangely enough, that kind of happened to me. Like there was a wrestler, like an independent pro wrestler at the time. He went by the name of Nick talent. I think he's going under Nicholas K now, and he saw me wearing the chakar hoodie, and he thought that I was one of the chicara wrestlers, because most of them were luchadors wearing masks, and they're all, like, super skinny. I didn't have the muscle that have now. So he saw me, thought, like, Oh, this is one of the chakar guys. He's probably just like, here for a workout. And I was like, No, I'm not. And then we just started like, Bs ing, he realized, you know, it wasn't like a weirdo or anything like that. That's the key. That's the first if you want to get into anything, yeah, a certain job or whatever, Don't be weird.

Dave Bullis 59:15
Don't be crazy. Don't be a weirdo. That's the two big don't breathe heavy over the food like that,

David Powers 59:23
Be nice. And, you know, we just had, like, just had, like, a fun chat. And whenever I was in the gym and he was there, we would just BS about wrestling. And, you know, he knew I was interested in getting into film. Another key element, if you want to get into film, just tell people that you want to get into film. Eventually you're going to find somebody that knows somebody. So this guy, you know, he would always tell me about beyond wrestling and how unique it was, because essentially, it was just kind of like a promotion that didn't have an audience. The audience was literally just the workers. So it was, you know, wrestlers, wrestling for wrestlers and with the with the mindset of, like, this is a good way for guys to network, and, excuse me, a way for for guys to, you know, get feedback from each other. Because, yeah, I don't know, like, the the mindset of the little locker rooms now, but like, I know of in the past, like, you know, you really have to really be super humble, and, you know, mind your P's and Q's to get feedback, you know, from certain guys, you had to ask the right people and just get some input on, you know, their work, because wrestling is definitely an art. You know, they even like, I've been in the ring, I've run the ropes. Nobody was teaching me how to run the ropes. I just tried to run the ropes on my own. And I'm like, wow, this is, like, the most unnatural thing ever. Like, you just, like, you just, like, run towards the ropes. And like, you know, you have to turn, but it's just, like, such a awkward movement, and like, using the ropes for momentum to to bounce off, and like, you know, run the other direction. It's just not natural at all. So, you know, just, I'm sure, for these guys, just, like, just trying to get, like, their craft, like, polished. Because, you know, when you see the stuff, like, on WWE, like, these guys are truly professionals. They make something that's like, completely like, unnatural, look like, so easy. But when, and I know you've, you've done some, you know, pro wrestling school with King Kong Bundy, like, just a lot of, you know, this, this, you know, movements and wrestling, they just, like, you really have to, like, work at it hard. You know, falling on your back, falling on your knees, and, you know, just just getting slammed and just trying to make it look like as seamless as possible, takes a lot of time and effort. And, you know, a good friend of mine, Chris Dickinson, who's in Evolve wrestling, kind of like a feeder system for WWE is like, Performance Center, you know, he, I remember, he told me, like, it took him, like, I think, like, three years before you realize, like, how to make a match. So imagine, just like having matches and just like not getting it. So these guys like form beyond wrestling to, you know, kind of bridge that gap, to get feedback from other guys to, you know, network with one another. But also, you know, put the stuff on on YouTube, you know, for fans to see it, which actually ended up, like, frustrating a lot of fans like, How come you don't have live shows? But initially, you know, he invited me to do camera work, you know, for beyond wrestling. And I'm like, wow, I don't even own a nice camera, and I'm going to be filming a wrestling event that's going to be, you know, put on YouTube for people to see.

Dave Bullis 1:03:02
Yeah, So did you feel like, Oh, yeah?

David Powers 1:03:06
Cuz, you know, since, you know, with independent pro wrestling, this was like, Really, like minor league at the time, like, Now, beyond wrestling has like, you know, really like stack lineup, and you know, a lot of guys that have competed for WWE or, you know, maybe have, like, some sort of, like a contractual deal with WWE that they appear on, like, their, you know, NXT or or the 205 live cruiserweight show, like they're wrestling and beyond now, and initially, like, for a lot of these groups, they don't have like, a, like, a nice setup. It's not like this, like, fancy television production. It's literally, like, we're gonna give you camp quarter, all right, we don't know where we're gonna set you up for a steady cam so we're gonna put you on this ladder, or we're gonna put you, like, high up on this, like, like, I don't even know how it's even, like, termed this thing that they put me on initially, but I was like, high up somewhere, like a scaffolding, or it was, it wasn't, or something like an eagle's nest, and I was just like, terrified of, like, falling off of this thing more than, like, getting a good shot. But apparently I did well, so they had me come back for other events. And so that was, like, my first, like, taste of film. And it was literally from, like, it literally happened from, like, a stupid, you know, like, man, you know, I wish I was, like, some guy that they found at the gym, and, like, it happened to me. Like, whoa. This actually does happen. So, so that's my, that's how I got initially started off into film.

Dave Bullis 1:04:39
And see, as we sort of take a step back here, you know, you had to fail. You know, when you were actually doing this stuff, you had to actually learn how to fail. And you had to learn how to, you know, do it the right way. Yeah, learning running. Talk about running the ropes, how the natural that was, and how you basically, you know, you have to learn, you know, this whole new skill. Yeah. And most. Of the time you learn by failing. Because, you know, yeah, so,

David Powers 1:05:02
You know, not all the stuff that I shot was like, great. Like, like, it was like, somehow it'd be like, after the fact, like, the promoter would be like, gotta stop like, doing, like, the zoom in thing, like they do on WWE, because it doesn't look good for our stuff. And, you know, just getting feedback and not taking it personally and, like, you know, how can I, how can I make this better? Like, I, like, my, my, you know, aim was not to be like a camera guy or anything like that, but at the same time, it's like, okay, well, there's going to be situations where they may need somebody, whether it's beyond or somewhere else, just to press record, yeah, and, you know, just, just, you know, make things look nice.

Dave Bullis 1:05:44
And just because I have to ask, because, again, yeah, this is filmmaking. What kind of camera did you use? Or if you're on the film set, it's, would you shoot that on? You know, if they're a film festival, you know, if you're at a film festival wherever, and you know, the film people, because they're going to come up to you and say, would you shoot that on?

David Powers 1:06:00
Exactly for the first one. It was, oh my god. It was like, literally, the promoter, like, dug out some, like, old camcorders and, like, they did have like, some HD to them. Well, no, no, they actually, they weren't HD. It wasn't until, like, there was like, one wrestler who goes by the name of, oh my god, Jarek, 240 or something. I forgot the numbers. Sorry if he's listening, but he, he was into film. He was, he was doing a lot of editing. And he had, like a, I think it was like the the rebel he had with him, okay, for, and that was like for our very first rebel, t3 i Yeah, for our first for our first live event with an audience. So we were actually had, like, by time, we were actually allowing, like, an audience to come in and, you know, watch us, you know, do our do we actually had, like, HD, you know, cameras with us. Oh, cool, so, but the initial, like, you know, tapings, they were just like some old camcorders that the promoter dug out, or, like, one of the wrestlers had an extra camera on and

Dave Bullis 1:07:06
And that because the show we were talking about. You know, you can't wait to you ready. You have to just go with what you have. Yeah, actually,

David Powers 1:07:14
I remember, like, a earlier in the conversation you mentioned, like there's, like, some people, they just we, we, they're waiting for the perfect moment. They're waiting for the for the right thing. I've known people that have, like, graduated from NYU for filmmaking, and they're like, Oh, I'm gonna wait to make a film. Like, once I have, like, the right camera or something like that. Like, No, don't. Don't wait. If you have like, a cell like, we're at a point now where you can make an amazing film with your cell phone. There's, like no excuse for doing what you want to do.

Dave Bullis 1:07:42
I've had on Sean Baker, who made tangerine and we talked about how he shot that whole movie with his iPhone, yeah, and that was a Sundance darling, by the way. Still my most popular episode ever with Sean Baker, yeah, I mean unbelievable numbers, because I actually got to interview him before. Every before it just blew up. I It was like, I even planned this, and it was just serendipitous. That is all of a sudden, it like I did the interview, and then here's where he, like, all of a sudden, was everywhere it being mentioned, so people were looking him up, and his first hit was my podcast. So that's why, all of a sudden I saw the numbers. It was kind of like one of those, like, Scooby Doo cartoons, where you're kind of like, yeah, I rubbed the rise links, and be like, What the hell? So, so it's awesome, but, but yeah, and so, you know, he just, he knew what he wanted to do, and you know, he wanted to shoot that, but, yeah, you can't. You can't wait for the perfect time. You know, no, and that's what that promotion did. They just, they knew what they had, and they made it work. And as you mentioned, King Kong Bundy, he always talked about the story telling of professional wrestling and the story telling everything else. And, you know, because, you know, Bundy says professional wrestling supposed to mirror a fight, yeah? And that's why he doesn't get things like the tackle, drop down. He doesn't get things like the LeapFrog, yeah. He says, if you're in a fight, why the hell would you be trying to leapfrog over somebody? He's like, Well, here's the perfect example. Is this. He goes, the other guy, you whip the other guy into the ropes. He comes back at you and trying to Gore you like a bull, so you leapfrog over him. And he goes, he goes, What the hell is the psychology of that? And, and you understand, I understand what he, what he, what he's saying with that. You know, it's, it's just a but, because, I think now, with the way wrestling is now, because, again, as we were talking about the pre interview, I have two friends who talk about it all the time, so I got it all my information from them. It's like, don't you think that'd be a good podcast, though, where they just, they both deny they watch it, and then all of a sudden they're talking about it, but, yeah, but, but, but, yeah. No, no, that's, that's where, that's what I was just talking about, was just that, you know, wrestling now that things will be different. I think, you know, with how everything's changed, yeah,

David Powers 1:09:46
I think the the artist storytelling is kind of, I don't want to say it's lost, like these kinds of things, is like, never really lose them, but they're definitely, It deserves to be brought back in like, grand form, because, you know, wrestling, just like film, it's like, about memories. Yeah, you know, there's, like, some, there's been, like, some great talents over the year. I remember, just, like offhand, I remember, it's like an episode of Cohen O'Brien, where he's, like, talking about Sid Caesar, and, like, this amazing comedian from from back in the day, and but he never really did any films. So nobody really like, despite how great his comedy, you know, was, and still is today. Like nobody talks about Sid Caesar or his influence on comedy and but you know, with with wrestling today, you know, without stories, without those moments, you know, there's no like, there's nothing for people to like. You know, tell others about, like, a lot of things that we get sold on, especially with film. Like, somebody tells you about, like, I saw this movie, you know, like, city on fire, and it's like, this happens, and it's so like, similar to war dogs. It's like, whoa, wait a second. He took that movie from that guy and like, and you, and it just gets you captivated. And if there's no moments, there's no memories, it's just gonna get, you know, hard to, you know, sell some of these people down the road.

Dave Bullis 1:11:31
Yeah, it's, you know, somebody once told me that that writing a screenplay is really scene writing, yeah, because you're writing these scenes out, and these moments that happen within these scenes are really key. Like, the movie casino, I was actually just, it was one of my recommended some of the clips on YouTube were recommended to me, and I started just watching this again. I was like, You know what, fantastic. Just some of these things. Like, you know, when, when Robert De Niro and when his wife in the movie, which is Harren stone, she ends up going back to her pimp boyfriend, yeah? And that whole scene happens. I mean, it's just stuff like that, you know. And they beat him up at the outside in the park on all of Robert near his boys. And just like, you know, there's this movie so well put together, and it's just these scenes that we can always talk about, because I had a friend of mine in high school who would always put on movies, and he want to show you the best scenes, yeah? And I was like, dude, just let me watch the fucking movie. Like, I don't need to, I don't need to see, like, because he was trying to show me Dawn of the Dead at just the best parts, like in the mall. I was like, Dude, I just wanna see the movie. Like, I don't need you to show me like that, the head explosion, your daughter dead in the beginning. Yeah. Was the George Romero version, by the way, yes. Not the, not the James Gunn version, yeah. But what, you know, look where they actually, they're going to, they're going through the apartment and the guy blowing the heads off and stuff like that. But it's the moments like that. And we were talking about speaking of the warrior, you know, when WrestleMania six, when warrior beat Hogan. I mean, that's, you know, that's someone leanly, yeah, leanly,

David Powers 1:12:55
It's just in like that match. Actually, I'm more of a fan of the career, ending match with him and macho King Randy Savage. And actually, when I knew warrior I, like one of my one of my regrets, is I didn't get to ask him about that match. It's like classic storytelling for those that have no idea about wrestling or that match in particular, you know, it's just like a heated few between the macho man and the ultimate warrior to a point where whoever loses the match loses their career. And it's like at a point of, like this blood feud between these two guys, they hate each other so much. And you know, this was, like a unique match, you know, at the time, like they got over how much they hated each other, and in a sense that, like, their demeanors completely changed from what they how their fights were normally, Ultimate Warrior usually, usually would jet down the ring. For this one, he walked down the ring. He was focused, you know, on macho man as his opponent, like he wasn't going to slip up both of these guys, like, performed each other's finishing moves like, multiple times, which was like, in the past, like you would never see a guy like, hit their finishing move more than once. Like, none of these guys were laying down for the other there's even a point where ultimate warriors like second guessing. He's already got macho man down on the floor, and he's second guessing, you know, should I continue? He's like questioning his fate in professional wrestling. And he decides, you know, he's speaking to the gods, and like, he comes back in the ring and then just, just destroys macho man and pins him with one foot on his chest. And it's like, whoa. What the hell just happened. And then, if you know anything about wrestling, you know, at that time, the macho man was separated from Miss Elizabeth, like they, you know, there was, like the whole feud with Hulk Hogan and and Miss Elizabeth was torn, so she was accused by the macho man, you know, that Hulk Hogan was lusting after her. So. She split up from the macho man, and she finally returns to the macho man at that WrestleMania after, like this, like, epic loss to the Ultimate Warrior. So you had, like, your love story. You had, like, this intense battle between two guys, like, who was going to win? It wasn't like, an easy thing to, you know, predict, like, some people could just watch wrestling now, like, Oh, that guy's gonna win because he's popular. But this was, like, completely unpredictable. It was like, there's like, so many different dynamics going on with this match. And I always wanted to ask him, like, what the hell was like? What was it like for you? And Macho Man, like, figuring this match out? And unfortunately, I didn't.

Dave Bullis 1:15:43
So how did you meet the ultimate warrior?

David Powers 1:15:46
He was doing these inspirational videos on YouTube, and, you know, I call wind of them. And you know, Warrior has been always like these, like fascinating personalities in professional wrestling, where it's like, basically a comic book character come to life, and, you know, there's always, like, a big, you know, feud between me and my friends, like, who's the better wrestler? Warrior, a Hulk Hogan. I was always a Hulk Hogan guy, but I love the warrior. And just being the wrestling fan that I am, I'm always curious what these guys are up to when they're not wrestling. And warrior was doing like, these, these, like, intense over the top motivational videos on YouTube. And you know, being the open minded guy that I am, you know, I think a lot of people, when they see these videos, they're like, Oh, he's in character. He's an idiot. He's just screaming. But I was like, you know, I'm gonna pay attention to what he's saying. And, you know, some of the stuff was just like, so like, just like, well said, well put. And, you know, despite him almost kind of being in character, and it seemed like the, you know, this man has, like, significantly matured, you know, from his time in professional wrestling, you know, from the the raving lunatic to this with this, well read, you know guy and who you know hadn't been wrestling in some time. You know, he's aged significantly. You know, he's got the gray hair, but he still, like, had, like, this amazing body. You know, not to go back to the to the movie we were talking about earlier, but

Dave Bullis 1:17:23
He was shirtless a lot.

David Powers 1:17:24
Yeah, it he should this guy have, like, discipline in life, yeah. And these, yeah, I would just like watch these videos over and over again. And you know, me and my other friends would like share them and like, like, some great stuff. And you know, some of the people that you know was friends with, even some of the film people like you got to listen to these videos. They're incredible. And some of them would be like, oh, you know, he's screaming. He's an idiot. I'm like, No, listen to what he's saying. And even they would like, eventually, like, turn there's like, some people I've like, I turned them into MP threes and gave them out as like CDs for people to listen to in their cars. And there's like, a few of my friends who like those things, have not left their cars and wherever they've like moved to like that CD goes along with them. And there was just, like, one day he posted a new video saying he was doing an autograph signing New Jersey. And he was thinking about doing some filming at that time on YouTube. There were two TV shows that he put out. There were, there were, there were pilots that it was clear that they weren't going to be like, aired on any television network and called the warrior show. And basically it was Ultimate Warrior taking like these screamo bands to a gym and taking like these, like,

Dave Bullis 1:18:47
Yeah, because the first band was, like, something alexandretta, or

David Powers 1:18:50
I have forgot the names. I haven't seen it in so while, in so long. But it was just kind of like, after seeing the motivational videos, and you're and like, I'm not a big screamo fan. So I'm like, oh my god, I can't wait to see these guys, like, you know, get taken to task at the gym, and have them see him puke and all this other kind of stuff. And, and I watched the show, he had them like, he put him through the ringer, had him like, do some crazy stuff, but, you know, turned it around in, like, and for, you know, this guy who's a celebrity, and, you know, like, for the food you ordered, you know, you wear an Ultimate Warrior shirt now, like, when the guy delivered food, he's like, Hey, that's the ultimate warrior, isn't it? Yeah. And I thought it was interesting on the show, he didn't assume that anyone knew who he was. And I one of the things that kind of like, endeared me even more to him. He's like, I know you guys looking at me like, wondering who the hell is this guy and all this kind of stuff. And then he starts explaining who he is, and you know why he you know, you know, put him through the task that he did, like, all these different like, workouts, excruciating workouts. And just to you know, get them to really physically feel like, you know, like you have some like power in you, not just to like be some like crappy screamo bands, you know, getting trashed on rose a and, you know, doing you know nothing with your life you know like you, he's getting it through to them. Like, hey, you have, like, an incredible, like opportunity that you know your band. You can get your message heard across to, like so many different people. You can use this platform for for something grander. And when I saw this YouTube video of him announcing that he was going to do filmings. I was like, I have a feeling it's going to be something like this, but I want to badly do it. And it was funny, because initially we were told, like we were not going to be told what the format of the show was going to be. If you're interested, he had a several page like, application that you had to fill out and you had to do your own video to send to him. So I was like, Oh, my God, I don't want to film myself.

Dave Bullis 1:21:10
And what was the application like? What were some of the things on there? Like, was really, like personal questions or

David Powers 1:21:15
They were kind of, like, not too super personal questions. But, you know, like asking, like, what did you What do you do for for work, you know, what? What motivates you? Do you work out, like, you know, like, basically questions asking, like, how, you know, mentally, physically, spiritually, how do you like, you know, hold yourself, how do you like, handle yourself, and all that. So it wasn't like this, like, weird, like questionnaire, of all these weird questions, it was actually pretty, you know, something like an introspective kind of, like, you know, form to fill out. So when I was filling it out, there was stuff, a lot of stuff I, like, you know, think about on a regular basis. But now I was actually writing it to someone else. I was writing it to a childhood hero, and did the video. Was like, scared of shit to do that. And I think like, about like, since I badly wanted to get on the show, I just did my best to completely forget that I even, like, submitted it. I didn't want to think about it. Was not going to obsess about it, nothing. And I think I heard back from like, two weeks later or a week, no, no, it was a week later. Did he call? You know, his management called me okay, and they're like, oh, you know, we're interested in having you on the show. And I was like, I they left the voicemail, and I immediately, like, called him back, and we were, you know, later given, like, I don't want to say, like, vague instructions, but they were not, like, they didn't give us the format of the show, what it was going to be. He just said, once you meet all meet at this hotel in, I think it was Woodbridge New Jersey at 4am I'm like, Okay, this sounds like the ultimate word. So we all got there, actually, I was so I knew he was going to have us, like, work out. And I knew that was going to be the case. And I was so hyped up. I was still, I was I was like, okay, they're not giving us the format of the show. Let me just come in regular clothes, but bring gym clothes with me. I was so hyped I completely forgot to bring my gym clothes. And I just showed up, like, wearing, like, skinny jeans and converse and my Charles Bronson shirt. And I was like, and once I got there, saw everyone else in gym clothes. I'm like, Ah, I'm fucked. And he met with us there. And it was funny, because it was just a spot that they picked. Warrior was not staying there. He showed up in a car, like, you know, I think at like, four or something like that, and basically told, you know, they gave us the deal like, Hey, you guys are gonna take a five mile walk to the underground strength gym in Edison, New Jersey. And I was like, five miles, all right, we're in for a long day. And the camera crew didn't show up. Meanwhile, you know, really, camera crew didn't show up. Warrior was there. His manager was there. And, you know, Warrior at first, just, you know, acted normal. He has said hi to us, shook our hands, stuff like that. And once it was clear that the camera crew wasn't there, keep in mind, like I said, you know, this is not a hotel that anyone was staying at. It was just a spot that they picked for all of us to be there. And he's like, Oh, Steve, his manager brought him into the hotel. Meanwhile, we're outside, screamed at this guy. And he was like, go. He was going into full Ultimate Warrior mode. And I'm like, oh my god, so awesome, even though he's just like, screaming at this guy. And. Like I said, this was not a hotel anyone was staying at. So there's somebody working at the table in the lobby. There's no one else there. It's just the Ultimate Warrior screaming at like, some guy in a hotel, where the hell is the crew? And it's like, at the same time, I was like, wow. Like, he's just like, he's just like the character and I also, at the same time, like, Okay, this is also, well, we're going to be like, who we're going to be dealing with for the rest of the day. And, my God, like, that was just kind of like, it seemed like an endless workout. I think from start to finish, it was like over four hours. And he had us. I was doing stuff that had never done before, like sandbag carries. At that point, I wasn't even, like, strong enough to, like, lift this thing on my shoulders. Had to have someone help me with it. And did the warrior like, was he watching as you were, like, somebody, oh yeah. He was there going. Was he just, like, kind of like, sitting there? Just no he was encouraging people to team up and help one another. So it was kind of like a team activity and and it was just one of like those, like, hottest days of the summer, and we had to go from from the gym and walk these, like sandbags to a dumpster. It's a parking lot that was nearby, and we had to walk back and did things like that, and again, like I'd never done before, like, tire flips, flipping, like, 200 pound plus tires, and trying to think it's like some of the other stuff. It was just like, really, it was just like a really, like, intense, like, I think once we got to the gym, it was just like a two plus hour workout. And, you know, with the purpose of just like seeing, like, Hey, we're more capable, you know, we're capable of things that we're that we're not even aware of, because the fact that, you know the physical, you know, state that I mental, state that I was in at that time doing the stuff that I did that day, was like, whoa. Like, I couldn't believe that I even did that. But the the thing that I remember the most from from that experience, was at the very end of the workout, and this is where the skinny jeans came into play. It came into big benefit for me, he had us crawl on the parking lot floor with chains around our neck, 45 pound chains on our neck from one end to another. And then at the end of it, he was like, if you don't follow your dreams, this is basically what you're doing to yourself. And there were guys after that. We were all talking to one another for weeks. They were pulling out like glass from their knees because they were wearing shorts, and I was wearing, I was wearing skinny jeans, so I didn't worry about that. Jesus. But it was, it was, it was a very, incredibly memorable experience. And, you know, I still go to the underground strength gym, and Zach and I, and we always, like, talk about, like, that day constantly.

Dave Bullis 1:27:58
Well, you know, it's funny because we were talking, I've actually, like, I don't know, know Zach, but I've actually emailed him back and forth. I bought a program from him, like, a couple, maybe a year or two, maybe a couple, a while ago. But yeah, I know who he is, and so, yeah, shout to Zach Evenish

David Powers 1:28:15
Of Zach Evanish he's got his own podcast, the strong life, yeah, podcast, which could download on iTunes.

Dave Bullis 1:28:21
Yeah, don't advertise on people's podcast. No, I'm just kidding. I don't know. I clearly promote Zach, yeah, but yeah, it's, I'll obviously link to all that in the show notes as well. And you know, it's been a Zach's a great guy. And just going back to what we were taught with what you were talking about, Warrior, when he said to you, you when you're following your dreams, this is what you're doing to yourself, like, all the time, yeah, you know, did a lot of people at that, at that finally have that aha moment, like, holy shit.

David Powers 1:28:48
Like, I can't speak for everyone, and, you know, like, some of these, some of these kind of experiences, you know, once you have them, like, I feel like it's a real, like, you know, process to to really, like, understand, like, the things that you go through. And I think for a lot of guys, including myself, you know, we're still learning, you know, from that, from that day, you know, I can, you know, just speaking for myself, I can tell you, I've, like, greatly matured, you know, from how I, you know, talk to people, how I treat them and stuff, and, you know, how I, you know, pursue my own dreams. It's not like the hardest, it's not the easiest thing to do what you want. You know, I feel like the mind is like the greatest, you know, barrier to just to living, you know, I forgot that Muhammad Ali quote is, you know, it's not like the biggest mountain that's in your way. It's like the pebble in your shoe. Oh, yeah. So, you know, it's just like that, just like some of the mental chatter, you know, it's like, really, like the hardest stuff to overcome. You know, you know, going through that experience with him. You know, I'm still like, you know, learning and still reminding myself, like, hey, you know, it's really just as simple as just doing what you want. And if you don't know how you know, if you don't know the first step, just, just do whatever you can do, what you know, talk to whoever you got to talk to, like, like, some of the people I've mentioned, you know, previously. And I'm sure you do the same with with your podcast, like getting guests to, like, you know, James Altucher. I'm sure he's not easy guy to get. But you persisted and you continued,

Dave Bullis 1:30:41
Yeah, it was, I did talk to his girlfriend a lot. Yeah, that that's a tip from from from me to you, is, whenever you have a tough guest, always go to the wife, girlfriend, whatever. Yeah, that's always a good way in i and then, sure enough, I was able to, sort of, you know, yeah. So you know, she wouldn't be in the right direction.

David Powers 1:31:00
Exactly. It's, it's really just like, you know, even with the the film festival, like, when I first started going to the New York Asian Film Festivals, like, how do I, you know, volunteer. I remember my very first day volunteering. I was actually coming off of the Kitchen Nightmare set. I was working with them. And how was the workout? Kitchen Nightmares? By the way, it was a nightmare. I didn't, I didn't see Gordon Ramsay once. Actually, I was just like, happy as, like, a pig and shit to be, like, on the set. Yeah, cuz that was a big deal for me. And actually funny enough, like, you know, I never was like, into like, cleaning my house or cleaning in general. I didn't even know how to paint. And actually being on that set, I learned how to do all that stuff. I actually like paint like, you know, it was all about, like, renovating, like, you know, these different restaurants that were just like pieces of crap, yeah, and, you know, I actually working on Kitchen Nightmares, I learned how to paint

Dave Bullis 1:32:02
Well, yeah. You know, somebody once told me that, like shows like that and Bar Rescue, that the way they choose a restaurants are the restaurants that are hanging on by like a thread, yeah? And basically, what happens is, there's already going to be like conflict there. The producers don't have to basically add anything, yeah. So basically, you know, the criteria is, hey, it's hanging on by a thread, which means something is desperately wrong anyway, because, because good restaurants, even if they even a place, looks like crap, if they have good food, people will come in Yeah. As people have told me, the best pizza places are the ones that look like the shit. Yeah, outside you go to go in there, it looks like shit. Outside, you go in there, it's like the best pizza.

David Powers 1:32:40
Yeah, they got the chandelier. And you like champagne cola,

Dave Bullis 1:32:45
Yeah, you like, what the hell like where the pizza is banging, but, but? And, you know, there's usually some some, some issues there with the food. Some people are just in complete denial. The place is falling apart. There's people that don't want to admit to their mistakes exactly, and also, because somebody once told me to about this, I just find this stuff fascinating. I don't want to take too much time away from you, but it's like, the other thing is, is that, if they were going to go under, yeah, the anyone who's had has some like, business acumen, yeah, say something like, okay, look, I don't want to throw good money after bad. So here's what we're gonna do when the lease is up and maybe a year from now, yeah, I'm gonna just focus on just making as much money as I can for the business. And then when that year's up, I'll maybe break even, lose it less, but I could still get out and I won't be losing my shirt. You know, whatever those businesses that are like in the real like bottom 1% or bottom whatever that appear on stuff like Bar Rescue and Kitchen Nightmares, they are so far gone, yeah, that it's like they are literally hanging by a thread. So everything is just like pandemonium when you go there, yeah,

David Powers 1:33:49
Actually, it's like pandemonium on set. I remember one of my, like, craziest moments was they're like, We need a waffle maker for the next scene. We need you to go to Walmart and get this specific waffle maker. I'm like, I got it and drove like a madman to get this waffle maker. I drove back, drove down a one way street, the wrong way to get him this waffle maker. And then, like, when the the show finally aired, like that scene wasn't even in there. So I was, I was waiting for that waffle maker scene. I'm like, you know, I went through hell to get that waffle maker, and they didn't even have the dignity. Just show one waffle or the maker on the episode.

Dave Bullis 1:34:29
It's those editors are brutal, man, they slaughter. They slaughter without man. So as we sort of talk about all these things, you know, meeting the warrior, and everything else, you know, you mentioned you got burned out from doing a lot of this stuff, and so did I. And who asked what we actually bonded us? Because we're like, look, we've had 28 experiences. It's time to sort of see on down the road. Yeah, you and I, finally, we're talking again, and we're saying, Hey, listen, you know, it's been a while since, you know, we each have done something. Yeah, you know, we you and I've ever worked together, but, you know. We each, you know, we ended up taking day jobs. You with various companies, me with various companies, because you just got burned out. So I wanted to ask you, and you know, free feel, you know, feel free to talk for as much as little as you want. Because I know, you know, obviously, you know, maybe some stories that you don't want to talk about, but, yeah, but you know, what are some of the things that happen to you that sort of burns you out. I won't even go into it, because everyone who listens this podcast already knows, yeah, they're pricing. They're going, Oh, Jesus Christ, don't let Dave talk anymore about Yeah, let the other Dave talk exactly. Let the other Dave talk.

David Powers 1:35:31
Oh, my God, it's like, and, you know, this is just like a process that everyone goes through. You know, when you first start out like you're so eager, you're willing to do anything, and, you know, to degree, I'm still willing to do whatever, like, as long as I feel like there's going to be some sort of benefit out of it. Just after a while, like, the number one thing that really, just like, troubled me the most, I think it's like a tiebreaker, one, just dealing with people that have no idea what the hell they're doing, and they're not willing to, you know, learn, yeah, to advance and to people that just get so emotionally, you know, tied up, you know, on set. Like, I've, you know, I'm a pretty humble guy. Like, you know, I don't have to be like, the director, writer, actor, producer. I don't have to be the Ed Wood for every movie, everything that I do. So, you know, there's times where I'm willing to, you know, PA, I'm willing to do anything like, as long as it seems fun, hopefully I'll get a payday out of it, you know. But, you know, just, just like, going through, like, some of the ridiculous, like, things like, I've had to, like, go to court appearances because people didn't, you know, clear a certain location, and then somebody saw us filming there, and you know, we would get, you know, summonses to court. And really, yes, damn, yeah. Like, it was just weird. I thought everything was taken care of, but it wasn't. And I had to show up in court, thankfully, was dismissed. But you know, it's just like, stuff like that, when people just, like, don't think out, like, think out like the process and to like the even if, like, they're friends with, you know, the people that they work with like they, you know, don't, they don't think of all the steps. You know, a lot of, you know, some of these situations are forgivable, but there's like, sometimes where I've had, like, people freak out on me for for stuff that made no sense. Like there was, like, specifically had a set that I was on where I was sent to go get some props. I had them was ready to walk out, got a call, like, we need you to CVS to get suntan lotion. I'm like, All right, I'm on it. They're handing me the receipt. I'm gonna walk right it out. Like, no, I need you to leave right now. Like, I'm about to leave in like, a minute. Like, no, no, you have to leave now. I'm like, this makes no sense. And, like, It's situations like that where I learned to just say, like, Yes, I'm on my way. I'm leaving, right? Yeah, exactly. But, yeah, even though, like, you know, knowing how to handle some of those situations, like just after a while, like people just freaking out or just causing, like, unnecessary stress, and these days are long. Like, average day on set is like 12 hours. And you know, I've had people that would go for 24 hours and and it's just kind of like, wow, I physically, like, can't, like, handle when somebody, like, make some of these mistakes because they're, you know, again, like, some of them are forgivable. Like, I can, look past through things, but there's just, like, sometimes where, like, you can tell that you're being clearly taken advantage of, yeah, and there's no benefit out of it, no none whatsoever. Or just like, you know, just some people aren't, you know, fit to be in film, and you really got to, like, one thing that I learned, and I'm sure James Altucher will tell you this with the power of No, you do have a choice in the matter. And, you know, I feel like, if there's, like, if you're on a set and it's just going to be trouble, and you just have a bad vibe about something, trust your gut. And you know, it's not, it's not a bad thing to say, No, I know, like, some people are afraid, like, Oh, I'm not going to get a call back. I'm not going to get another job, I'm not going to get paid. What am I going to do? It's like, No, don't worry about it. Like, if you're in a situation where there's a no benefit, like, why would you want to keep continuing to do that? I've had situations where people offered me contracts to work for their production company, and I'm not. I can't, you know, read contracts and, you know, pull, you know, no, no legal guy or anything like that. But I can. I can read them enough to tell them when I'm being screwed, and I would pass them around to to people who do know how to read contracts. Like, this doesn't look right. Can you can you read this over for me, and I remember specifically there was one friend of mine who was like, Is this like a, like, a Hollywood contract from like, the 1930s like, because you're not going to make anything. From, if you sign this,

Dave Bullis 1:40:26
Well, basically, was it? Were they just trying to say, like, you're not gonna make anything, and trying to, like, control your rights? Because, like, I actually had, if somebody present me a contract one time to help, to basically, co write a script and help co and co produce the feature in direct terms, it even said you're not paying, getting paid anything. It was like, what we're paying and we're paying the amount of he wrote in 0.00,

David Powers 1:40:50
Wow. They have wrote, they even wrote out $0.00

Dave Bullis 1:40:54
And I said, Wild Earth, but I signed this, yeah. And it's like, well, it's experience. I don't need any more experience in, like, student film stuff. You know what I mean? Like, I said, like, you and I were talking about this earlier. You can watch some of these bad movies and you can see how they mirror student films. It's like, I always turn I use the term student film with money, yeah? Because it basically, hey, it's not two people talking on a backdrop anymore, yeah, although Bigfoot versus DB Cooper, yeah, keep talking about that movie by the guy. DB Cooper was obviously just in an office somewhere going, ma'am, I have a note. You know what? I mean. It's just like, Okay, you're just in an office. We got it. You can't film one on the freaking plane. But yeah, plenty of shirtless guys to go around.

David Powers 1:41:37
Yeah, exactly. Well, this, this contract to purchase. Well, the one that I'm thinking of right now, it was really just kind of like, you do all this work for us, and we'll give you this small percentage for getting us clients and off the back end, yeah. And actually, was, it was funny. I had a friend of mine, you know, go through the contract, and I gave him a counter offer, which was like, basically the reverse, because I was the basically the intent of my reply was, like, I'm on to you guys. And this looks like a contract that, you know, in nicer terms, it looked like a contract that he probably just found online. Yeah, that's the exact which a lot of people do. So, you know, keep in mind, filmmakers out there, be careful of people that just print stuff offline that they don't even look at. Yeah, and

Dave Bullis 1:42:28
Because it looks like a nice contract, I had that done with me before. And I said, is this, there was a website that actually had this guy made, a website to give people free film contracts. And like I would see, keep See, keep seeing the same exact like, paragraphing and space. And I kept saying, like, is there some place of like, oh yeah, I found it, but yeah, I'm sorry.

David Powers 1:42:46
I didn't mean to remember it's like, and plus, like these people in particular, I know that they had no lawyer or anything like that, to write that this thing for them. So basically, we just tour be in the friend of mine. We tore apart the the contract piece by piece. Well, not physically, but you know, like, we basically gave them counterpoint, saying, like, Okay, you have this written down. Well, I'll be willing to do this instead. And it was funny, they accepted on all terms, but then I just ended up saying no, because I was like, All right, well, if they're willing to offer me this kind of ridiculous contract in the first place. What's stopping them from doing something, you know, equally as stupid, or even worse, down the road? Yeah, so, you know, just really showed me their true colors, and I was not afraid to say no and just leave it at that. And again, like, feel like, with some filmmakers, whether they do stuff like they're they're set, or they aren't. There's always like, some sort of paranoia of, like, somebody got hired me for another gig or something like that. Because just like, you know, just just the hustle of jumping from one thing to another, it's a lot of work, and it's very tiring, and it's just stuff like that that I just, I just didn't want to put up with anymore. So I was like, You know what? Right now, for me, the New York Asian Film Festival is like they treat me, right? Love the people that I work with. You know, this is what I love about film and actually make make better contacts through through New York Asian than I do through anything that I've ever done, even Victoria's Secret, I've made better context in new IGN than I did at Victoria's Secret So,

Dave Bullis 1:44:24
Yeah, and honestly, you probably would have a better time at the New York Asian Film Festival.

David Powers 1:44:28
Yeah, actually, even for Victoria's Secret, like, it was fun the first time, the second go around, it was just kind of, actually, when I did the Victoria's Secret show the first time around, that was kind of like, you know, once you're behind the scenes, I'm pretty sure, like, most people there, were just, like, so caught up in the glitz and the glam. But the first thing that came to mind was like, wow, this is like, so fake,

Dave Bullis 1:44:49
I imagine too. Like, I know I've seen backstage like, I've seen like, on TV, yeah, it's like, so chaotic, yeah? Because they're like, everyone's moving at 10,000 miles an hour, yeah? Like, oh my god, where the hell is this? Thing I love, you know what? I mean, they're just running around. You're like, Jesus Christ, yeah, just get the models out there. Come on. I mean, you know, and some of their, some of the costumes, obviously, you can never wear any down the street. It's just particular fashion, yeah? I mean, they've got wings and shit on me. Yeah? Imagine wearing those in New York. You'd get worse in New York, yeah, actually, because I because every time I've ever seen anybody get out of line, even a little bit in New York, it's just like they, they just get put down immediately. And what I mean by that is like people who walk slow, even foreigners who come over here, like immigrants who come over here, yeah, they wouldn't know what I'm saying is they, they know right away that you don't walk slow in New York. I remember this Muslim man was like, he was like, there was this woman walking so in front of him, and he actually turned to her and he said, he goes, it's fucking New York. You gotta walk, yeah.

David Powers 1:45:48
And I'm like, yo, if you, if you just, like, stand around and, like, look at something like, you're like, Crossfire,

Dave Bullis 1:45:58
Exactly, you're gonna get a push in grandma,

David Powers 1:46:01
Like, like, even if you have nowhere to go, you go, you're trying to get through as fast as possible. Yes, yes. I've even had people like, who they're just, like, not from here, and they're walking with me somewhere. And I remember there was, like, one person in particular who's like, walk very fast. Like, I didn't even notice it until they pointed it out. I'm like, Yeah, you're right. And then I was just, you know, it all became clear to me.

Dave Bullis 1:46:26
I there was a time a friend of mine, we came, we went to New York with a group of his friends. Yeah, they were from the middle of nowhere in, like, Kansas or Iowa. I mean, I mean middle of nowhere. And they stopped, they saw New York for the first time, and, like, what the hell yeah. And they were wanting to take pictures of everything. And I said, Look, they're gonna get, like, steam old. So I said, you take this group. I'm gonna take this group. And I started talking to him, like, if you want to take a picture, you tell me, and I will tell you where to stand, so somebody doesn't come by and fucking lose their mind. And you'll be like, What the fuck you doing? Ah, yeah. And because it happens, you know, it just, yeah, so, like, you know, there's certain places and, like, thankfully they but, like, they went to, you know, Wawa is right, yeah. Okay, so we went to Wawa, and they couldn't order from the thing the screens, because they didn't understand, like, what that it was going but they would actually time out, yeah, before they could actually order it, and the whole thing would reset.

David Powers 1:47:21
Wow. That's like, such like, I don't know it's like, such a common thing now, like, for a lot of convenience stores, and even just, like, some like, regular places, just to place your order on a tablet or something.

Dave Bullis 1:47:32
The greatest was a few years ago, but still, yeah, but yeah, as we sort of go full circle with this, you know, you and I both got burned out. We both have day jobs now. We're like, you know what? You know, you went to the Asia Film Festival to, sort of like, look, this is my outlet. I started this podcast. And out of frustration, man, I honestly because of a couple of reasons. And now, you know, we're trying to start doing this stuff again, you know, doing our own projects. And it just sort of circles back to what the ultimate we was talking about, where, if you don't follow your dreams, this is what you're doing to yourself. You're picking glass out of your knees. You're doing all this other stuff, yeah,

David Powers 1:48:09
Crawling on your hands and knees, or the friggin chain around your neck, getting a hot parking lot.

Dave Bullis 1:48:13
And it really does tie in, because it's like you're torturing yourself, yeah? I mean, you're working harder for less,

David Powers 1:48:19
Yeah, and it's just kind of like, I don't know, like, when you really badly want to do something, you know, I'm slowly but surely, you know, making my my way back into film, like it's, I have to admit it to myself, like I still want to do some of this, maybe not to a degree that I used to do, but I still love it. And, you know, least, you know, thankfully for me, like I have the New York nation Film Festival to be able to work in like, some sort of capacity to film where I can actually, effectively, you know, help people enjoy, like, these amazing films, yeah.

Dave Bullis 1:48:54
And, I mean, also, I think to picking and choosing is really good, because I did the same thing where I would just say yes to every project. Yeah, that's bad. I mean, I told you the stories, yeah. You know, the guy, the director waking up late on their shoot the morning of, and two hours later, he's still nothing, yeah, yeah, cuz he's, I overslept. I'm coming now, and Tommy was those story too, yeah, exactly, yeah. But yeah, that stuff too, but, like, and then the guy was talking about forgot the key, and it's just, you know, it's like, one thing after another, after Yeah. And eventually you're like, What the hell calling the locksmith doesn't work. And, you know, it's all that good stuff, yeah, the whole it's like, what am I doing this for? Exactly, yeah. And then you get, you get burned out. And, you know, again, you know, we have our own stories about getting burned out and so, so what are your plans for the rest of this year? Like, what are you hoping to

David Powers 1:49:40
Right now it's just mainly focusing on the New York Asian Film Festival. We're actually next this coming week. We've been we've been doing this basically like a YouTube like chat show, talk show called NYAFF chat. NYAFF chat. And we, we started with, like, a few episodes, like, we're starting to get into the groove of things, and this week we're going to be having having a guest come in and I'm actually going to be directing the latest episode. So this is actually my, my return to the director's chair.

Dave Bullis 1:50:30
See, see, I knew you were going to drop a bombshell.

David Powers 1:50:32
So, so I am like directing again. Like the last thing I directed was with a friend of mine named Stefan versus we did a music video for our friend Baron called the remedy. And, you know, that was, Oh, my God, I'm trying to think of, like, how long ago that was? Had to be, like, three or four years, which is funny, because, like, even though I haven't really done anything, like, you know, super big in film. It's just really been helping out with with New York Asian people still ask me, like, oh, like, what are you gonna do next? Or, like, if I take a trip to LA, they're like, oh, except for work, like, so, like, just even, like, with, like, friends of mine, like, they they want me to get back in. They know what I'm capable of. So, you know, nav chat with with New York Asian Film Festival. I'm going to be back in the director seat directing those. Our next guest is kanji furatachi, who's, he's kind of like one of those like that guys in Japanese movies. He was in our our audience award winner last year called too young to die. And we're going to be filming it at film movement, who's distributing kanjis, new film harmonium, to the US. So we're going to be interviewing him there, in their, in their, their office space. So it's gonna be, it's gonna be fun. I, you know, it's like, I've heard of this guy. I've seen movies that that, you know, he's been in. So technically, I'm gonna be, like, directing him for this talk show.

Dave Bullis 1:52:12
So what are you gonna say? Like, what types of directions are you gonna give him? Like, like, talk louder and just be like, I'm trying to make a joke here, but, yeah, it's why people attempt to humor like, I remember, I always used to say as a joke I would tell people like, a directing tip is always to say things that mean nothing, yeah, just to make yourself like you don't mean like. I don't really believe that this is a chair. Yeah, I you know what I mean. And we sort of keep like, what the can I make it more of a chip? Well, it's like, it doesn't really mean anything, but,

David Powers 1:52:45
Well, this kind of, like, just, like, started because, you know, I didn't really, like, have any plans to, to direct or anything for, for this project. It was just kind of actually coming from me, like, giving them, like, a lot of feedback. Like, there's just be, like, you know, certain, like these, like nervous tics that they would do, like, on the camera, or, like, one of the guys would have, like, their arms folded the entire time, like, no, unfold your arms. And like, just like one where they were drinking beer, and like, the the the beer, like, logo was on the cup. And like, like, don't, don't drink at don't drink the beer. Like, just, just leave it there. Let it be a prop in front of you. You don't have to keep drinking it while you're talking. And, you know, just like, offering feedback about, like, body language, and, you know, like eye contact amongst you know them, and you know, just like the the spacing in between them, like, it's kind of like, even though I haven't, like, done film in a while, like, all this stuff is like, coming back to me, I'm looking at the camera, I'm looking at the like, you're doing it all wrong. And just like, I just want to, like, yell at everybody and flip a table, and

Dave Bullis 1:53:53
Are you gonna start wearing like, like, leather chaps and have a riding crop, like, the old fashioned directors, yes, and just be like a slave driver, beret, exactly, beret with a bullhorn and leather chaps and a horse whip, yeah, like a riding crop. So you're just always like, you always slap, because that's what you do. You slap against your leather chaps.

David Powers 1:54:15
Yeah Cecil Devill or something like that, one of those old timey, you know, Director Exactly. Yeah. I have, like, the big megaphone, yeah,

Dave Bullis 1:54:23
You're like, two feet away from the actors, like we are right now, yeah? Just like screaming like, god damn power is like, just, just calm down.

David Powers 1:54:31
Yeah, can't work with any of these people.

Dave Bullis 1:54:35
Oh, now you can't hear how your eardrums blown up.

David Powers 1:54:37
So it was just kind of like stuff like that. And, you know, we're, we're, you know, we're trying to do something new, because the festival just happens once a year. We also do the old school kung fu fest, oh, cool, which is, like a program that we used to do a while back. We recently bought it back for like, the last, like, last, like, three years. Yes. So it's like, okay, so essentially, we're just doing the New York Asian Film Festival and the old school kung fu festival. So it's like, rest of the year, it's kind of like there, it's just like, this big gap. So we're doing, you know, nav chat to, like, fill that gap. So like, there's a presence for us throughout the year to get the word out about the festival. You know, we're also, actually, I'm also in charge of their Instagram, so it's like me and like a few other people who are, you know, just trying to, like, again, like, just like, fill that like time that like, nothing's happening with something I say so people are aware of us, because it's a really unique situation. Because, you know, the group that you know puts us all together is called subway cinema, and it's kind of like, well, how do you market like a group that just does, like, film programs and like, we don't have our own theater. Usually, like, if you hear about like, something like Fantastic Fest, like that happens at the Alamo draft house. They have their own theater, and, you know, the these groups that put them on it's not like, it's not like people, you know, like talk about subway cinema or anything like that. It's a really unique, you know, thing to market. So we're just kind of like, okay, well, what's the potential that we have here? Because we know people love the festival we have, like, these, like, you know, like a list, you know, Asian you know, guests coming in, and it's kind of like, okay, well, what can we do so people, like, know who we are, and, like, if we do, like, a special event, like old school kung fu fest, or in the past, you know, we've, we've also had the New York Korean Film Festival. So how do we get people to, you know, piggyback from the New York Asian Film Festival, to go to these other stuff that we're doing, or sometimes we might do, like a one off screening. So one of the great things about New York Asian is the audience. They're really passionate about these films. They really, you know, know, you know so much about these actors, actresses and directors and everybody, and just like for me, how working with with New York Asian as a volunteer to a staff member, like I have always been constantly in contact with the audience, because we do, like, You know, prize giveaways and, like, the Audience Award. So, like, when they hand this, like, stuff back, you know, they're either, you know, giving us feedback, or, like, I'm just curious. You know, you know why these people are coming? How did they find out about it? Because, you know, I just, I heard through word of mouth, like, how did these people find out about it? That's, I'm, like, really curious. And you know what keeps them coming back? Like, we have our hardcore people, you know, coming in, and we have like friends, like my friend Christina, who flies in from like, Texas, you know, every year for the New York Asian Film Festival. So, you know, feedback from the audience is a big, big thing. It's like, you know, you don't know what you're doing right or doing wrong, unless you get that feedback, and it's crucial. And some of these people end up, you know, becoming friends of mine. Like hanging out with them, and, hey, it's also a great way to network, too. There's been some, like, interesting people that like, who are in the business, who come every year, they just want to watch movies and they love, you know, you know, the different genres that we that we include from all the different countries and stuff. And recently, we're taking more of a focus on, like, I think Southeast Asia, like, there's like, we're showing more Filipino movies and like from Vietnam and stuff like that, not just like, Japan, Korea, China, Hong Kong, which everybody knows and loves. So we're really broadening our scope these days. I know, like, for instance, last year, like, we brought, like, one of the biggest, you know, Filipino actors, John crew, John Lloyd cruise, you know, to the festival. And, you know, really showing people what, you know, what's, what's being like offered in all these different Asian countries. And so far, the feedback has been, like, amazing. You know, back in the day, we showed a lot of genre movies, and now, you know, we're 16 years old, if we're having our quinceanera, oh, you know, we're, we're maturing. So, you know, it's, it's becoming evident in the festival itself. You know, as you know, some genre movies, they're just not as good as they used to be. So, you know, we're, we're just just doing our best to bring, like the best quality, you know, Asian films, you know, to to North America for people to enjoy.

Dave Bullis 1:59:42
If you ever want a recommendation for a fun Filipino movie, check out for your height only starring Wang Wang.

David Powers 2:00:00
Oh, well worth.

Dave Bullis 2:00:01
Okay, I was gonna say there's actually, I was in New York, and somebody actually had, and we were at a film festival, and somebody actually had a shirt that just said Wang, Wang, and just a picture of him. And I, wow. I wonder how many people, other than complete film nerds with no life like me, know who the hell wing one is? Well, you seem, you know who went,

David Powers 2:00:22
Yeah, you know, that's, like, one of the original, like YouTube viral videos. So that the new Manuma guy, yeah, that's it for people just like, oh, it's that, like, that, like midget from wherever that, like, does Kung Fu, and he's like a James Bond guy,

Dave Bullis 2:00:36
Yeah, for your height only. And then the sequel was, what it was called. It was like another kind of, like a spoof name, yeah, I think it was all spoof of the spy who loves me, yeah. I think it was maybe the, the, the way, my who loved me, I don't know, but, but, yeah, that, but that's just my recommendation. But all kidding aside, though that it's great though that you're having your kids in Europe, and that, you know, the again, yeah, not you personally, but, but sweet 16 years, but, but no, because, again, it's always great to see these different films from other cultures, which is why I'm always against when art becomes homogenous and all and art becomes like this thing where you have to follow these set of guidelines and rules. No, you have to be like mate Neo in the Matrix, anyone who tells you that shit? Okay, marry the end, when Neo becomes the one, yes, you have to look up and just hold up your hand and say no and let it all go away. And that's what you have to do. And totally because otherwise, we're all just gonna be sitting around watching the same art that everybody else has, that you know, and we it's just gonna be the same movie no matter where you are, and you can't have that. It's gotta be an expression of your culture, expression of yourself, and it's all that good stuff. That's why I'm glad you know that there's, there's film festivals like this out there, and just to get sort of a different vibe. And you know, America is the melting pot, and God bless America. Yeah, seriously, man. I mean, you can in America, you can go out and grab some Mexican food, watch an Asian American Film Festival. You get the first amendment right so you can talk shit on people. God bless the First Amendment right? Because if it was first amendment right, wasn't around. I mean, you know me, I just love the fans would be screwed. Exactly wrestling fans would be done. Man, yeah, which

David Powers 2:02:17
They couldn't complain about raw every Monday slate that much slanders online, yeah, and

Dave Bullis 2:02:24
Some of these wrestles with these shoot interviews. They would, they would be gone too well.

David Powers 2:02:29
Now it's all podcast, so there's, there's no like, shoot interviews, because they go on stuff getting paid by, like, some guy to film them, like, do a shoot interview. Now they're just, like, going for free on a podcast.

Dave Bullis 2:02:39
I bet, see, I don't get that, like, I don't understand why they would do that. Like, it has to be a reason for it. I have a theory, because, like, on key talk. Man, now, for instance, you're the Honky Tonk Man, right? Oh, yeah. So he goes around to, like, these places, it just does live shows. And I know, I know Bruce pitcher is doing the exact same thing. And by the way, I want to give a shout out to Connie Conrad, who does the Bruce pitcher podcast. Now he did the Ric Flair podcast. I actually we follow each other on on Twitter, and he's actually really good guy, so shout out to him. He's actually supported the podcast a lot nice So, and also, I don't want to mention any names, but there's a person who's involved with wrestling who's a potential guest, so I'm just closing in. Okay, now, okay, well, you know who I'm talking about, as you already told me, I just want to make sure it's another Dave, yeah. And so, yeah. So what do you think about Twin Peaks tomorrow? It's Saturday, where we're recording this. I'm so, what do you think about my god, I can't wait. I think it's gonna be freaking Yeah.

David Powers 2:03:38
Like, I remember, like, as a kid, like, I didn't even know I was a David Lynch fan. I would watch like the Alpha Man. I'm like, this movie is great and, and I didn't see racer head until, like, years later, but a friend of mine brought my attention to, like, Blue Velvet. And that's like, when I like, do who directed it, and I'm like, This guy's good.

Dave Bullis 2:03:58
And because you watched it, you you know it's good. But when you're that age, you don't know why it's good.

David Powers 2:04:04
Yeah, you just, you just, it's just, like a je ne sais quoi when, yes, when something works out, like, it's, it's evident to anyone that you don't have to have a film background to appreciate somebody's art or anything like that. You just watch it and like, you just know it's good.

Dave Bullis 2:04:19
Yeah, my movie was big trouble, Little China, which is still my favorite movie of all time. Like, I remember watching that movie as a kid and being like, this is fucking awesome. And I don't same here, and I don't know why it's awesome, because I was a kid, yeah, but it's just fucking cool, yeah. So Dave, we've been talking for about two hours now. Jesus Christ, yes, sir. Zero is usually like an hour, yeah, about an hour or so does it take? So I'm just gonna put this one episode. Okay, so in closing, any final thoughts

David Powers 2:04:49
Just come out June 30 through July 15 to Film Society of Lincoln Center as well as SVA theater for the 16th annual New York Asian Film Festival.

Dave Bullis 2:05:00
Yeah, and I'm gonna link down the show notes everybody. I really, again, I just want to encourage everyone to attend. It is a really great festival, and I'm just, it's just, again, serendipitous that Dave happened to be, you know, now, an actual staff member for it. But again, I encourage everyone to attend. It's a great festival. I actually heard about it a few years ago from a friend of mine. And it was just at James Hong. You have James Hong. No, he was, so he was like, Wayne's. He was Wayne's girlfriend's dad and Wayne's World too. He was, he was low pan and big picture, little, oh, yeah, well, so he what?

David Powers 2:05:42
Yeah, I What was that he brought up the festival?

Dave Bullis 2:05:45
No, he I was actually had a thing for him, and somebody else there brought the festival. Okay, so, so, yeah, I don't know why I went for Wayne's World to First Cassandra said instead of anything, yeah, is it a Kung Fu Panda? Yeah? Like, I bring up Wade's world too. Yeah. I'm gonna link to all that in the show notes. Everybody and Dave, we will find you out online.

David Powers 2:06:05
I think like best right now is just to follow all the New York Asian social media outlets on Instagram. We're New York Asian Film Festival. One big word, Facebook. Just type in, New York Asian Film Festival. You'll find us through there. What else we also got Twitter, which is just at Subway cinema, which is like our mother company, and like, if you contact, like, any of those outlets, you can get a hold of me.

Dave Bullis 2:06:32
All right, so because I noticed that Dave isn't on Twitter as much as it used to be.

David Powers 2:06:36
No, it's like some old photo of me shaking hands with nose Ferrari. Yeah, exactly. I have been like, I don't even remember the last time I posted on there.

Dave Bullis 2:06:43
That was that, how I remember you. I was like, man, Dave shaking hands of nosferatu. That's, that's why I would remember you for the rest of my life,

David Powers 2:06:50
Just you know, a benefactor for from my projects,

Dave Bullis 2:06:55
Public domain. Come on, baby. Dave Powers, it's been awesome having you on man, it's we've been talking for so long online first and then we finally got to meet today, and we did the podcast. It's been awesome having you on man, yes.

David Powers 2:07:10
Irresistible force meets the immovable object.

Dave Bullis 2:07:12
Seriously, it's like Hogan warrior, yes. Now I want to bring you back on seriously, because I want to see what you're up to, and then I should keep myself accountable too. And as we get back into doing this, man, as we take some of the warriors advice and just go out there and just do it, baby, always believe, always believe, Dave. Thanks a lot man.

David Powers 2:07:31
Thank you for having me man.

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BPS 461: What a Real Film Producer Actually Does with Marc Bienstock

March 5, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

On today’s episode, we’re joined by Marc Bienstock, a veteran film producer whose career offers a rare, ground-level view of how movies actually get made. With credits that include The Visit, Split, See No Evil 2, and 12 Rounds 2: Reloaded, Marc has spent decades navigating the realities of studio and independent filmmaking. His story is not about shortcuts or hype — it’s about preparation, collaboration, and solving problems when the pressure is on.

Marc’s path into producing wasn’t linear. While studying at NYU’s School of the Arts, he explored both directing and producing, even directing a music video funded by RCA Records and producing a student film backed by HBO. After film school, he initially pursued directing, completing multiple features. But it wasn’t until the mid-to-late 1990s, after being offered the opportunity to run production at an independent company, that he realized his true strength was producing — supporting directors in ways he himself wished he’d been supported earlier in his career.

That perspective shaped Marc’s entire philosophy. For him, producing is about service: transparent communication, preparation, and building a team that supports the director’s vision. He explains that real producing happens long before cameras roll. Pre-production is where trust is built, expectations are aligned, and creative goals are translated into budgets, schedules, and logistics. Once production starts, things move too fast to solve foundational issues — which is why preparation is everything.

Marc also stresses the importance of assembling the right team. Skill matters, but attitude matters just as much. A single negative presence on set can derail morale, while a collaborative crew can elevate a project beyond its limitations. His now-famous philosophy that “everyone gets one mistake” reflects a realistic understanding of filmmaking: productions are intense, mistakes are inevitable, and a producer’s job is to anticipate problems and find solutions — not assign blame.

As his career progressed, Marc shifted away from script development and focused more on execution. Studios and production companies now bring him projects that are already well underway, relying on his expertise to determine where and how a film should be made. This includes navigating tax incentives, which Marc describes as essential to modern film financing. Shooting in incentive-friendly states can reduce a film’s effective budget by millions, lowering investor risk and making projects financially viable.

His collaboration with M. Night Shyamalan on The Visit marked a major milestone. The partnership came together through mutual contacts, and the success of that film led directly to Split. Marc recalls reading both scripts and being struck by Shyamalan’s mastery of character and voice — an ability to convincingly write across ages, personalities, and psychological states. For Marc, great scripts don’t just have strong concepts; they take audiences on a journey with characters they believe in.

Teaching has also become an important part of Marc’s career. While working on Split, he taught a production class at Drexel University, walking students through the entire lifecycle of a real film — from securing IP to budgeting, staffing, scheduling, and post-production. His goal wasn’t to glamorize the industry, but to prepare the next generation with honest, practical knowledge.

Ultimately, Marc Bienstock represents the kind of producer filmmakers hope to find — one who understands both the creative and business sides of filmmaking, values collaboration, and knows that movies are made by people, not just budgets. His career is proof that success in film comes from consistency, humility, and doing the work when it matters most.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:07
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 0:48
So on this episode, my guest, as I said before, I've actually worked with him. I was his TA, and I actually think he is the first person I actually worked with on this entire podcast. I'm going through my mind right now, and I can't think of anybody else, so if I had missed somebody, please forgive me. Somebody email me and tell me, Hey, you had somebody else on but, but this person, I think, is the first person that I've worked with. This guy is a phenomenal producer. I mean, just phenomenal. I will link to his IMDb in the show notes, because he's not on social media, so that'll be the only link I have for him. This guy has produced some really, really cool things. 12 rounds two, reloaded. He's produced the remaining See No Evil 2 with the Soska twins the visit and split with M Night Shyamalan, with guest Mark Bienstock, Hey Mark, thanks all for coming on the show.

Marc Bienstock 2:51
Thanks for having me. Dave, glad to be here.

Dave Bullis 2:53
You know, Mark, you're actually one of the, like a handful of people that I've actually met in real life. Most everybody else on this show I've never actually met anywhere else.

Marc Bienstock 3:05
Well, I'm, I was a pleasure to meet you and and glad to be part of a small, small group of privileged folks there.

Dave Bullis 3:12
Oh, and we're gonna, we're gonna talk to about you, how we know each other, which is, I think it's a great story. But, you know, just to get started, Mark, and it's a question I ask everybody, and that is, you know, how did you wind up in the film industry? You know, did you always like movies as a kid and, you know, and you knew from a young age that you wanted, this is something that you wanted to do.

Marc Bienstock 3:33
I did always like movies as a young kid and, but I was also a huge music fan and, and so I, you know, I bounced back and forth between a career in music and in a career in film, and ended up at NYU, at the school the art. And was bouncing around there between, you know, visual medium and working in radio and, and, you know, in the film side of it won out.

Dave Bullis 4:03
So at what point Mark did you, you know, did you start knowing that you wanted to be on that producing side, you know, as a career?

Marc Bienstock 4:13
Well, well, funny enough, when I was NYU, I was directing. Actually, I directed and produced. So I directed a music video there that was a grant from RCA Records at the time, and that was a really, you know, monumental experience for me. And after that experience, I knew that, you know, I had to do it again. And then I ended up also producing a thesis film for a fellow student that was a grant from HBO. So I had both experiences, and they were both, you know, really satisfying. But when I came out of school, I initially, you know, went down the road of directing that was a little bit more interesting and enticing to me at first.

Dave Bullis 5:00
So, you know, she went down the directing road, you know, at first. And you know, when was it that you finally decided, you know, you wanted to be that producer, you know, just, you know, producing all these of these films.

Marc Bienstock 5:12
Yeah, great question. I decided somewhere in the mid to late 90s, I was offered an opportunity at an independent company to come in and run production there. And at the same time, I was finishing my second feature film, which is the TV movie and and that experience was was somewhat trying, and decided that I would prefer to be the producer for other directors that I never had, so you know. And at the at the, at the advice of many friends, they thought that that was a good move. So I certainly, you know, chatted with, you know, many people close to me who knew me well, and they all thought that that the choice of segueing and moving over, you know, and favoring more of the producer than the director was, it was a good choice. That's what I did.

Dave Bullis 5:59
You know, you that's something you and I talked about before, too, was, you know, when people would say things to me like, oh, you know, you're really good at this. I wish you would produce my movie. I know, I kind of took that as, like, I kind of was, like, insulted in a way about that. I know it sounds so weird, Mark, but I was kind of like, I want to make, you know, my own movies. I think it was a temple. I said this to you, you know, I I like, you know, I like movies, and I like everything about movies. I've pretty much held every job. But then I said, you know, it's like I said to you at Temple at one time. I said, I, you know, I want to produce my own stuff. You know what I mean? And I But it's interesting, you had that, that, you know, that that journey, and it's so people must have seen at some point that, you know, you were really, really good at producing, if they, you know, everyone keeps asking to do it again and again.

Marc Bienstock 6:47
Yeah, you know, I never, I never have people what they saw on me or why they thought that I would, I would be a good producer, you know. But I, you know, I had the opportunity and, and so I took it and ran with it. And, you know, and for me, my perspective was that not only could I hopefully be the producer for other directors that, you know, I never found for myself when I was directing, but also that I would, I would enjoy the collaborative process and learn from working with other directors and find, you know, as much satisfaction and supporting other directors and and breeding, like, into those films as I would into, you know, the projects that I directed So and, you know, and for the most part, that's been true.

Dave Bullis 7:31
So, you know, Mark, that's a I actually liked, you know, we just said there where it's about, you know, you wanted to be the producers that other directors could, you know, other actors couldn't find. I think that's very important, because important. Because I think now you have that perspective of, okay, you know, as a struggling director, how hard it is to find a solid producer. So you know, what were, you know? What were some of the things you know, as you know, you've produced all these, all these movies, you know, what were some of the things that you did to make sure, you know, to make sure that you always were sort of on point, you know what I mean, like making sure that the director was always being helped. I if I'm sorry, I don't know if I've said that, right, but I did, you know, you know, I'm trying to get at Mark. I don't know, I don't know if I said that, right, sorry,

Marc Bienstock 8:14
Yeah, no, no, no, it's a good question. You know, it really varies and it evolves over time. You know, I think, I think, just like you know anyone in any in any profession, you know we be, hopefully, we become better. You know, our experiences make us better at what we do, and over time, you know we we evolve and become, you know, the best at what we do, or the best version of ourselves of what we do. So I, you know, for me, it's really about transparent and open communication with the director, especially in pre production and even prior to pre production. You know, once, once you're, once we're out there making the movie, so much is happening so quickly. So it's, it's really in pre production, have IT spending a lot of time together and having a lot of dialog and understanding creatively. You know, what the director wants for each scene, sometimes for each shot. And then, you know, how can I support that? And how can I have, you know, the team that we've assembled support that, and it's all about supporting, you know, the director's vision. And so what are we we're doing it with, you know, our crew, or we're doing it with our financial resources. When we do all the things that that in the world will support that vision,

Dave Bullis 9:32
You know. And you know, that's amazing, you know, Mark, because that is so true. Because you have to be supportive of one another, you know, you have to build that team. And I think this is another thing you and I talked about where, you know, everyone has to have a good attitude on set, because if you have one person who has who sort of has, like a bad attitude, it spreads like a virus. You know,

Marc Bienstock 9:52
Yeah, well, I agree with you. However, not everyone is required to have a good attitude. You hope everybody brings a good attitude and and, you know, I, I think that, um, you know, we all have good day from bad days. But yeah, hopefully for the most part, you've assembled a team of people who, you know, have fun, enjoy what they're doing. You know, believe in the project and and bring their best every day. And you know, and that it makes it, makes it a more pleasurable experience for everyone. And so you're right, if there's, you know, if there's a bad attitude that will affect everyone, and just like in, you know, in our personal lives, if you encounter you know someone who is aggravating that potentially can make you upset, and then you know you're aggravating to someone else, and so on and so on, so on. So you hope to put together a team of people that are that are all pleasant and polite and good natured people who are also really talented.

Dave Bullis 11:01
Yeah, that's, that's a great way to put it, Mark. And, you know, I wanted to, actually, you know. And as we talk about, you know, building this team, you know, I wanted to ask you, as you started off your producing career, you know, just looking at your IMDB, you know, you know, by the way, Mark, I've seen about, just about every movie you've produced, which I think I mentioned to you also, it's just a small world. I, you know, I actually remember going to Hollywood Video and renting bloody murder. I remember, I'm sorry, Mark?

Marc Bienstock 11:31
I said, Oh my gosh,

Dave Bullis 11:32
Yeah, I know. I actually remember. I remember the cover. I remember everything about it. And then when I met you, I was like, Wait a minute. I was like, hold on. And then I looked up your IMDB. So, you know, I've pretty much seen every move you've done. And, you know, as I want to talk about, you know, building a team. So, Mike, when you were first start, you know, starting out, you know, what were some of the you know, how were you first approached for projects? Or did you go out to find projects to produce? At that point,

Marc Bienstock 12:00
When I first started out, I was developing projects and, and, you know, looking for projects. And people were bringing projects to me and, and then I was also an executive at a at an independent company here in Los Angeles. And so we were, you know, projects were brought to us because we had the ability to partially finance movies. So that was a, you know, it was a really good place for me to be at the time. So, you know, opportunities presented themselves because of that, but we had to go out and find the other half of the money. So it wasn't, you know, it wasn't an automatic and then over time, I decided to spend less time developing material and more time making movies. And so I started to partner up with other producers who spend more time developing projects. And so, so now, you know, studios and other companies come to me when they have a project that is, I would say, you know, two thirds of the way there, and just about ready to get, you know, they're, they're seriously considering making the movie, and that's when they would bring me on. So my expertise now is, is about making the movie, where to make the movie, how to make the movie, the best way to make the movie, as opposed to developing the script.

Dave Bullis 13:25
So, you know, you built your team. So I like that too, where, you know, it's almost like you had, you know, you were, it's almost like a building a network, right? You know, one person is sort of the person in there making contacts in this direction, and one person is another person making contacts in this direction. And I think you know that that teamwork there helps, you know you helps all the producers out, because they're each finding different ways to sort of find, find the money, whether it's investment, angel investors, you know, stuff like that. Am I correct?

Marc Bienstock 13:57
Yeah, in a perfect world, whether your fellow producers, or anyone else on the project, I always try and find, you know, and be in business with individuals where, where our skill sets complement each one up there, as opposed to being having redundant skill sets. So whether that is you know, what we each do as a producer, or who our contacts are, you know, so we're, you know, we're much stronger as a team if we all complement each other, as opposed to, we all do the same thing.

Dave Bullis 14:30
Yeah, that's a very good point mark. And, you know, just as we know, we go along, you know, following your your career, you know, you started doing some, you know, I you know, obviously, the sort of more, the more movie movies you produce. Excuse me, the more movies you produce. The you know, the bigger the budgets are getting. You know, was there ever a point where you got a budget and you said, Oh my gosh, do we how do we get this much money? Was there ever like a moment when you knew you sort of entered that next level and that you were making and you were. Like, wow, this is, I mean, it's just, you know what I mean, like, that moment, that aha moment you had, where you were just, you just knew this was it, and you were and you were just sort of doing this for the rest of your life.

Marc Bienstock 15:15
I think the aha moments have come when I when I've seen versions of the movies, when they're finished, not so much. I mean, it's always exciting to know that we have the finance and to be able to make a movie. It's always exciting to have the experience of actually making the movie and getting really close with that group of people you make the movie with, and then it's incredibly gratifying. And, you know, I think the aha moments occurs when you're sitting in a screening room and you're watching the finished product. And, you know, and that, for me, is what is ultimately, you know, truly satisfying. So, you know, the aha moment happened when I, when I recently saw, you know, split, which comes out, which will be released in January by Universal. So, you know, that was, that was the latest aha moment. And, yeah, so that's when it happens,

Dave Bullis 16:04
You know, I remember when we were, we were in Philly, and we were at the post production house. I forget the name of that post production house we were at, but we were out there. And I remember you were in the screening room, and you were saying that, you know, you made it. If you can get one of these in your, in your in your house, and you can just have everyone come over, and that's where you watch cuts of the film. And Right, right? And you're so, you're so right Mark, because that is true. You know that that's what sort of everybody is aiming for. That way you didn't come over. Hey, look, we're gonna kill all the lights, and we're just gonna, you know, watch a cut of this film. And, you know, actually, that, you know, I wanted to actually talk about, you know, you coming to PA to film. I wanted to ask, you know, you know you you first arrived, you know, when you worked on M Night with M Night shaman on the visit. So, you know, I wanted to ask, you know, how did you meet M Night, and how did you How did you two start working together?

Marc Bienstock 16:56
You know, we were, we were, you know, Knight decided he wanted to make the visit, and he was looking for a producing partner and someone who had experience working with budgets, you know, below $10 million and we were put together my agent and his business partner, and fortunately, we hit it off, and, you know, and we went and made a really good movie, and, and the rest is, you know, the, I guess, as they say, the rest is history.

Dave Bullis 17:26
So what? And when you were working on the visit, you mentioned to in that in the class, that it was like one of the first times where, you know, you were talking about the PA, you know, the PA film tax credits. And, you know, we talked about that. And, you know, one of the things was, you know, you never had before a writer who was able to get the tax credit because they live in the same state as the movie is getting produced. So I wanted it, right? Yeah. So I wanted to ask, you know, Mark, you know, in today's, you know, film industry, and with today, with everything that's going on, you know, do producers like, is like, are the tax credits like, the top three things that producers look for now when they're about to make a movie. Or I know they're important, but, I mean, I'm trying to ask is, you know, how important are they now for making a film?

Marc Bienstock 18:08
Yeah, tax credits are very important for film and television. You know, if you look around the country, there are a number of states that offer these. You know, Georgia being one, and it's one of the most popular spots. Atlanta has become one of the most, you know, popular cities for film and television, and that's because of the incentive they offer. New York and California now offers a very competitive incentive. So and Pennsylvania has one, and New Mexico and lots of production in Vancouver and Toronto. So so you know, to give you an example, if you have a $10 million budget, and you go to an incentive state, and the incentive is 25% and let's just say, for you know, the sake of argument, you're getting 25% of your $10 million so now the cost of your movie, which was 10 million, The net cost is 7.5 million. So if you're an investor, you you want your movie, or you want your TV show to go to an incentive state, because the hard cost, the recoupable cost, is less 25% so you made a movie for 10 million, but you only need to recoup 7.5 million. So from a business perspective, that's an ideal scenario, and that's why the incentive states are so popular,

Dave Bullis 19:26
And also to mark, you know, as I've had other producers on, you know, they talked about, you know, just the different concerns now, because, you know, everything is changing, you know, with Netflix and and and the foreign sales are, some are still there. Some are, aren't they're saying that, you know, because of that, it's a little bit different now with how you package and pre sell your movie.

Marc Bienstock 19:48
Yeah, it's, you know, the world has changed, and so there's no more DVDs or video so home entertainment and all the ancillary dollars that, you know, investors look for studio. Goes, look for You know, those revenue streams have changed, and they constantly are changing, you know, not domestically as well as, you know, in the international market. So, yeah, you it's always changing. It's never easy. And this is why, you know, you think of incentive dollars as really free money. Someone's giving you money. They're saying, Come to our city, we'll give you this much money, and you don't have to pay us back. So, you know, that's, that's why it's attractive. And you, you know, you minimize your exposure,

Dave Bullis 20:48
Yeah, and, you know, and that's something we were talking about as well. And, you know, in the in the class at Drexel University, because, you know, it's more important than ever. And you know that's something too, because PA, you know, they do have a tax credit, but, you know, like we were saying, everyone goes to Pittsburgh because, you know, the the union fees are a lot cheaper. And also, and like you mentioned, to Philadelphia, there's, like, only one, one, you know, crew that usually does pretty much every movie. And you know they, and you know, if they're out doing one another movie, it's kind of hard, unless you have to bring other people in. And like you were saying, all that stuff affects the budget,

Marc Bienstock 21:25
Right, right! Absolutely. I mean, everything there, you know, everything has an impact on the budget. But, you know, in all, in all fairness to Philly, and I love port Philadelphia, you know, Pittsburgh has been very busy, and it is predominantly because it's less expensive to produce a movie or a television show in Pittsburgh than it is in Philadelphia, for a number of reasons, however, and so that's why there's more crew there. So if Philadelphia were to become financially competitive, then the crew base would grow. But right now, you know, it can't support a larger crew base, which was why there's only, you know, one to one and a half you know, crews, you know, in Philadelphia, yeah.

Dave Bullis 22:07
And I remember that, you know something we were talking about. And actually, you know, just to, you know, I keep alluding to this, so I'm just gonna say it'll get to how we met. So, you know, Mark, you and I met. It was right as you were getting ready for pre production for split and you had, you had agreed to work for, you know, because I think you came in to, I think you approached Drexel to maybe come in and teach this production class. Is that, how did Drexel approach you? Or did you approach Drexel?

Marc Bienstock 22:36
I spoke with the film commissioner in Philadelphia and expressed my interest in in teaching at the universities in Philly so temple and Drexel and and a number of other universities. And then it was, it was just a matter of aligning my schedule with their semester. And Drexel was a turned out to be a terrific bit. And, you know, and then also, you know, Temple, just for a lecture, because their semester had already started. But so I was, you know, something that it was, it's my way of trying to give back and and I recall when I was at film school and thought how I would have appreciated and benefited from the experience of a producer coming in and, you know, and speaking about what they do and offering some insight to their experience and how they do it. So, so, you know, it was something that I wanted to do, and Drexel was kind enough to present me with an opportunity.

Dave Bullis 23:38
And it's also too because, you know, you're actually a producer out there doing stuff, you know. And because people could, right now, we could go on Amazon, we can go into Netflix, we can find your movies. And, you know, that's, you know, saying to before was, that's why your experience is, you know that you know that a list level, because you've actually made, you know, movies that have been in, you know, in the theaters, movies that have been number one at the box office, you know, all this stuff. And I think that right there that is irreplaceable, you know, experience. So when you come into a classroom like this and you talk about, you know, how you did this, and in the process it that is, that is absolutely key, because, you know you have again, because you're at the top of the mountain. And you know what I mean, and that that, that's why I'm so glad that you actually, you know, did decide to do that whole class at Drexel and do that one day at Temple. Because, again, not only did, I mean, I learned just ton, just how, you know, talking to you, and obviously I was in the class with you as your TA but again, you know, I think that is an amazing, amazing opportunity for all those students involved.

Marc Bienstock 24:41
Well, I appreciate that it was, it was really my pleasure, and, and I was, you know, happy to have the opportunity. And, and hopefully, you know, everyone got something from it.

Dave Bullis 24:51
Yeah, so, so how Mark and I actually met was, like, we have a mutual friend. You know Dave. You know Dave Raynor, and Dave actually asked me if I could if I was interested in helping out a producer at Drexel University. And it wasn't. I said, Yes. I said, you know, I'd be very interested to help somebody out. And then when we got our Deuce Mark, I actually looked you up, and I said, Okay, I will definitely help this guy. And because, I know, because, again, I was like, This guy is, you know, a level producer, and, you know, just being at Drexel with you, I think the class was awesome. And, you know, and also, because, again, you went over an entire movie. I think you went to the movie you talked about was the remaining correct, how you produce that whole movie, from start to finish,

Marc Bienstock 25:36
Correct. What we did is we, we simulated. You know, we re simulated the actual production of the remaining Yeah. So Stoney was kind enough to allow me to share, you know, some documents with the class. And you know, we went through it from start to finish, where we actually from the point of finding an intellectual property, securing the intellectual property, pitching the intellectual property, selling it, figuring out where to make the movie, how to make the movie, staffing, scheduling, budgeting, yeah. So we went through all that.

Dave Bullis 26:09
And again, that was so enlightening. And one thing I took away from that class mark, and I think I said this to you as well, but I'm going to repeat it for the listeners, and that is, you said in your producing policy is everybody gets one mistake. And I have kept to that. I was like, That is a great way to look at it could, because everyone gets one mistake. And, you know, it depends on what it is, but, you know, but, uh, that's a way to keep people at least honest, right?

Marc Bienstock 26:38
Well, it's, it was my lesson, and you know, their production is, is such an intense experience. When you're making a movie and you start shooting, you know, everything is very heightened because it's happening so quickly in such a relatively short period of time. There's a lot happening. And if you have 100 people working on a movie, and people make mistakes, and so the realization is, you know, just you just can't, no matter how prepared you are, no matter how hard you work, no matter what you try and do, it's impossible to prevent people from making mistakes. You can hopefully minimize that, but you can't prevent it. So it was really my realization at some point as a producer that we're all human, we're all imperfect. And so my Yeah, so my rule is, and I say it out loud to remind myself, you know, it seems reasonable that each person is going to make one mistake. So if you have 100 people, that's 100 mistakes over the course mistakes over the course of the movie. Now maybe some people will make none, and others will make, you know, two, or they'll be bigger or smaller, but yeah, that's the general rule to remind me that regardless of how frustrating it gets when people make mistakes, but this is just the reality of what we do. And so, you know, it's my job and it's my king's job to come up with solutions for those you know, those mistakes, those challenges.

Dave Bullis 28:08
So you know, as you talk about, you know, making mistakes and minimizing those mistakes. Mark, I wanted to ask, you know, what was your most your biggest challenge as a producer? You know, what was, what was, you know, did something ever happen on set that that was took a lot of creativity or or so. I mean, there's always unforeseen problems. But what was that biggest problem that you had to tackle, and how did you overcome that?

Marc Bienstock 28:35
I honestly, the thing that comes to mind is, is a really unfortunate experience, where it had to do with with, you know, individuals on set who were, you know, not in their white mind because they were under the influence of substances. And so that's an incredibly significant challenge, because, you know, those, those particular individuals were a more vital to the production, and we couldn't just, you know, dismiss them. So that was, you know, that was incredibly challenging, because it's not just solving a problem, but you're dealing with, you know, with the human being, and you're dealing with someone who isn't necessarily reasonable, and you have to try and reason with them, and you have to try and motivate them, and you have to try and get them right so they can participate in the movie and and hopefully not embarrass themselves or anyone else. So that was probably the greatest challenge. But other otherwise, you know, there are challenges on every movie, and often time, the beauty of those challenges are, there's, you know, you discover some. You know, more often than not, you discover something great from those challenges. And you know, if everyone is prepared, and has really thought about what we're going to do. When those challenges present themselves as a group, we can usually come up with some pretty, pretty good, satisfying solutions.

Dave Bullis 30:19
Well, you know, that's, you know, pretty big challenge. Mark, because I've, actually, I've never, I mean, that might be one of the worst, you know, challenges I've heard of producing, because you're right, you know, they're key, and you can't dismiss them. So, you know, yeah, that's unbelievable. You know, just as a side note, Mark, I had a friend of mine. He one of his biggest producing challenges was he was going to film a movie, and there was this old, like, wooden bridge that he was going to film on. It was just going to be like, you know, it was an old, tiny bridge, and he wanted to use it for a couple of things. They had a storm the night before, right? Well, the everything was washed away. The whole the bridge was just demolished. And he got there the next day with everybody, and it was gone. And he goes, well, well, here we go. So here we are now with you're trying to find a plan B, another friend of mine, he there was poor planning in the production. They got to the location the first day, and they realized he didn't have the key to the building to get in like that, which makes, I'm sure you know, as you hear that the second story, you're probably like, how do you make How do you not have the key Come on, but, but, yeah, he that that's just some of the producing stuff that you know. Other Other producing challenges that I've heard from friends. You're just thinking of the top of my head, but, but, but, yeah, it's if there's all you're right, if there is creative ways to solve challenges, except for that one with the key in the building, that I don't think there's any excuse for that.

Marc Bienstock 31:48
That's that's when you call a lock Smith, or you hope someone on the crew has has had a prior life as a as a burglar,

Dave Bullis 31:57
Exactly. Just, that's where you channel your inner Verner Hertzog, and just just figure out here, because he actually, he said in his pitch for his master class, he said he would teach kids, learning how to pick a lock is more important than anything else in filmmaking, and I think that's, that's where you have to challenge your sorry summon your Verner Hertzog for that.

Marc Bienstock 32:24
There you go.

Dave Bullis 32:25
So now you know, so mark, you know, as we were talking about the class, and we were talking, you know, we're talking about split, you know, you know, obviously you and M Night, you know work so well together on the visit that you know he eventually, you know he, when he was done writing this script for a split, he asked you to come back. I mean, when you read a script from, I know you mentioned this in a class, you read a script by M Night, you said you were just blown away, and you were like, wow, this guy's a writer. And, you know, now, that's something I've heard from other producers as well, too, where they read what script and they're just like, holy shit, this, you know, this is, this is this guy can do it. So, I mean, when you read the script for split, I imagine you were probably, probably even more blown away than when you read the visit.

Marc Bienstock 33:09
They're both. I mean, I love them both. I mean, and they're very different, but they I was excited, you know, to read the visit and and was excited to, you know, to be a part of that. And then was equally excited to read split, yeah, he's an incredibly talented writer, you know. I think it's, it's making movies are, are, you know, very challenging, you know, and it starts with finding a good script. And, you know, to find a good script, you need a good writer. And I think there's a lot of people that do it, and there's few people that do it really well. And really well, and he's one of those guys who, you know, he does it really well. He's a, he's a, he's a great writer, he's a great director. You know, I love working with him,

Dave Bullis 33:53
Yeah, and, you know, and you know, I actually have seen all of his movies, and, you know, I actually took a special interest in, you know, in the visit, and I am going to see split when it comes out, because, obviously, because of the connection, you know, of knowing you and plus, you know, actually, you know what's funny Mark M.Night lives, like, 35 minutes away from me, and it's like, you know, I it's just funny because he's still one of the guys that still lives in PA, he doesn't live out in La, and it's just funny, though, but, but, yeah, I also wanted to help him out, obviously, by supporting him, because, obviously, he's a PA guy like me, you know. And, but it, but it's, but it's always good, you know, to hear that, you know. Because you know, you're always, whenever I hear producers, whether they're giving interviews or, you know, or just, you know, didn't just talks with them. You know, that's what they're always saying. They want a script that speaks to them. You know what? I mean, they want a script that sort of, you know, really tells that story. And, you know, I don't know, one of the things Mark too, I want to ask you is, what are some of the things that you've noticed that maybe you know, M Night does, whether it be about the story. Or is it in, is it in the the actual description, and, you know, in the script, what are some of the things that he does that really sort of leap off the page at you and, you know, and others who read the script and make it so that way, like, Damn, we got to film this thing tomorrow.

Marc Bienstock 35:15
That's a really good question. Well, I, I think it's, you know, I think it's really challenging for for writers to speak in in multiple voices. And if you're writing a screenplay, you know, it's a requirement. And and he, he does an excellent job, whether it's, you know, writing the voice of as in the visit, he wrote these two kids who were, you know, at a luttonce. And then he wrote two grandparents, and, you know, and in Split he has, you know, three teenage girls, and then he has an older woman who's a therapist. And you know, the main character has split personalities. And you know, these are all these voices are all really honest and really accurate. And that's not an easy thing to do, so that that really resonate. And then he's just a master with with story. So in addition to having these characters that you like or dislike for the right reasons, you know, he's he takes you on a ride. And you know, in the story is just as compelling as the characters and and you know, that's when you when you consider all those ingredients that's pretty complex. And it's not an easy thing to do. And it's goes the same as someone who writes, you know, a novel, it's, there's lots of writers, but there's, you know, few good, few good novels. And this is all subjective, but so he's, he's, he's, he's, he's just dripping, creating characters and and then, you know, and then giving them a story and a road to travel that we all want to go down with them,

Dave Bullis 36:51
Yeah, and exactly what you mean, Mark, you know, I had on Aaron Kaufman, who worked Rob Rodriguez, and I've had on, you know, Our mutual friend, an equipment queens, Cassino is, you know. And you know, they were saying similar things. You know, they will need when they read a script, and it would be like, you know, a certain, a certain script that stands out from them, you know. And you know, I mean, because you know how it is Mark, you know, when you send it to whomever, usually have readers, they go through. And, you know, probably have a pile out of 100 maybe one or two gets through. And, you know, maybe at the end of a month, maybe have 10 scripts that have gotten through out of a pile of, like, you know, a couple 1000. And those 10 scripts are all excellent, well written scripts, but maybe only one of them will actually speak to you, whether you're saying it to like a producer like yourself, or maybe you were saying it to an agent or even a manager. And like you said, it's all subjective, you know, maybe one person like Stephen King, the next person likes, you know, Dean Koontz, and you know, and you know, again, you just build those relationships up, and you know, then you find yourself in a situation like you, where you're now you're making another great movie, you know, with M Night, and I'm gonna Guess you'll probably go for another one after this,

Marc Bienstock 38:02
You know, I hope so. I think that, I think we had a good experience. And, you know, hopefully split will be well received, and we'll find ourselves back together again, making a movie sometime next year.

Dave Bullis 38:14
So Mark, when does split come out?

Marc Bienstock 38:18
January 21 split will will be in theaters everywhere.

Dave Bullis 38:24
And, you know, Mark, I know we're starting to run out of time, and I want to, I'm gonna, actually, I must have linked to the shownotes, everybody. So I'll link to the the date, and also link to the trailer. By the way, the trailer looks really good. Mark, I saw that when I came out, and I wanted, I just had a few Twitter questions come in. Do you mind answering just a few questions before we call tonight.

Marc Bienstock 38:42
Yeah, go for it sure.

Dave Bullis 38:44
What advice would you give to filmmakers you know, who are producing their first film? And obviously I'm that's a little bit of of my own verbiage, because obviously that question always comes in Mark whenever I ever ask these things. So I always take, sort of take and combine it. So you know, what sort of advice would you have for somebody producing their first film?

Marc Bienstock 39:04
The advice that I would offer someone producing their first film is to surround themselves with people that have more experience than they do. So if you can associate yourself with a producing partner who has made a number of films, you should do that so in any way you can. You know, if you can have you can find a mentor, and if you can't find a producing partner that that has more experience than you, then you just want to make sure that the other people that you're bringing on, whether it be your first ad, your production manager, all these other folks, you want them to have experience so you can benefit from their experience.

Dave Bullis 39:43
Yeah, very I like that answer, Mark, because, again, that's something I've always tried to do too. Was, you know, surround my genius. Surround is, is, uh, you know, the way I heard it way back, was, if you genius, around yourself, surround yourself with the smartest people, more experienced people, you can and you know where everything goes well, you know, you know, you can figure out, you know, all the things that we know went right. And yeah again, because that way they can guide you along the way. You know

Marc Bienstock 40:18
Exactly.

Dave Bullis 40:19
And another question came in through Twitter, and this is by Roger coach. Roger Coach B Films, and that is, you know, Mark, how do you find stories? Are they pitched, or are they through books? Or are they throwing, like, inspiring news stories,

Marc Bienstock 40:33
All of the above, you know, you look every which way. It's, you know, books are really competitive. Everyone chases books. So, you know, they're either writers who have ideas, they're written scripts, you read an article. So all of the above.

Dave Bullis 40:52
And you know, that's great, too, Mark, because that's also the second question that always comes in, is people love to, you know, talk about, you know, pitching to producers. And then when I had, like you, and I've had Aaron, and I've had Cassian on, and, you know, that's usually the question is, you know, how do you guys get pitched? And you know that, I think so. I thank you for answering that question mark, because,

Marc Bienstock 41:15
Yeah, you should, you know, the one, the one piece of advice I'd offer someone who was trying to get something pitched, if you're not established and you don't have an agent, and you're trying to get someone's time, you know, keep in mind that people's time is, you know, is their greatest commodity. And so have a concise pitch, you know, have a synopsis that someone can read, whether it be a half a page or a page, and know that that synopsis is going to be attractive and get their attention and leave them wanting more. So, you know, be prepared and be able to do, be able to pitch quickly and, you know, and spark some interest.

Dave Bullis 41:55
And you know, that's why Mark, I want to say thank you, you know, for all your time and coming on the podcast. And you know, I know you're an extremely busy guy, and I just want to ask, you know, Mark, in closing, is there anything that maybe we didn't touch upon that you wanted to say, or is there anything else that you wanted to discuss to sort of put a period then to end this whole conversation?

Marc Bienstock 42:15
No, I think you've covered everything, Dave, you've done a great job. And I appreciate the invitation to be on your blog, and then I appreciate your assistance with the class, and this has been a lot of fun.

Dave Bullis 42:27
Oh, my pleasure I had, like I said, Mark, I had an absolute blast with that class. And by the way, the smart students in that class, they were always they were always trying. I was going to tell you this, and I'll tell you this now, they were always coming to me and they were asking me questions. Like, you know, how's mark? Is he a real nice guy, you know, this and that? Because they were always like, I think they were a little intimidated you at first, and you know, as they sort of got to the through the class, they all, you know, they all knew, Okay, Mark's a good guy and and basically at the end, the smart students all network with me. And you know what I mean, like, they made sure to get my contact info right, because I because, because somebody said, Well, you know, they said to me, Well, if you're with Mark, you must obviously know somebody. And I said, Yeah, I know a lot of cool people, but yeah. And then they said, Oh, you do your own stuff too. And I said, Yeah. And I said, I have a pretty crappy podcast that I do. And you know, they said, All right, so, but you know, it's just, it was just funny. And I applaud those kids, because that's how you got to do it. You got to hustle and grind. And those kids understood you have to network wherever you can, and don't just blow past somebody because you don't think they're, you know, maybe you don't think that there's somebody you should network with. Or maybe, you know, they don't, you know, you know, you know how some, maybe some, you know, just they didn't want to network with me or what have you. But that that was the key Mark, is that they, they so the smart kids understood that.

Marc Bienstock 43:49
Remember, you you know, you never know where someone you know, who you meet today will be tomorrow. So it could be someone who's at top today isn't at the top tomorrow, and someone who you know is only halfway there today will be at the top tomorrow. So you know, best to to be kind to all and and speak to all, because, you know, there's all those relationships will benefit you in some way.

Dave Bullis 44:14
Yes, I completely concur, Mark. You know, that's why I try not to burn any bridges. I try to be, you know, I'm always as nice as possible to everybody. And, like you said, everyone gets one mistake and then, and that's it, and because we're trying to minimize problems. But you know, Mark, you know, where do people find you out online? Say that again, Dave, where can people find you out online? I mean, do you have any, any online presence or anywhere you want to send people just to either contact you or maybe for the movie.

Marc Bienstock 44:43
I I don't have an online present other than you know, people can search in on LinkedIn. But other than that, I do not have a I don't tweet, I don't post, I don't Instagram, I don't Snapchat. I. It. Well, I won't do any of it, but I appreciate those that do. So, yeah, so I have a LinkedIn account. That's it. And I'm sure, you know, folks want to get in touch me or seek me out. That's the way to do it. And otherwise, you know, go see split,

Dave Bullis 45:19
And I will link to the trailer and the website for split in the show notes. Mark Bienstock, I want to say thank you so much for coming on, and it's so great to talk to you again.

Marc Bienstock 45:29
Thanks, Dave. Appreciate it

Dave Bullis 45:31
Anytime, my friend, I wish you the best with split and let's talk again soon.

Marc Bienstock 45:35
Sounds good. Be well.

Dave Bullis 45:36
Take care. Bye. Bye!

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BPS 460: Making Independent Films Without Hollywood or a Huge Budget with David Ash

February 26, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

On today’s episode, we welcome David Ash, a filmmaker who proves that creativity and responsibility can coexist. Based in the Twin Cities, Ash has built a life that blends a demanding corporate career, a family of four, and a thriving passion for storytelling through film. With a background in business administration and a full-time job as a treasury director, he is the definition of a weekend warrior — someone who squeezes every possible moment out of his schedule to write, direct, and produce movies. His journey shows that you don’t need to quit your job, move to Hollywood, or have a massive budget to make great films. What you need, according to Ash, is commitment, consistency, and the willingness to learn by doing.

David’s filmmaking journey began not in a studio, but in a contest. After entering a screenwriting competition that brought him to Los Angeles, he realized that while Hollywood admired talent, it rarely offered open doors to outsiders. Instead of waiting for someone to hand him an opportunity, he decided to make his own. He immersed himself in local workshops, learned camera techniques, studied editing, and began working on short films. His first feature-length experiment, Love: A Documentary, was a mockumentary produced for just $800 — a testament to what can be accomplished when creativity is prioritized over resources. That project, humble as it was, gave him the confidence and hands-on experience to take the next step toward more ambitious films.

As his storytelling evolved, Ash developed a style that combined emotional realism with psychological depth. His most acclaimed work, Twin Cities, explores themes of identity, mortality, and redemption through a lens of everyday realism. The film was a turning point — both artistically and personally — showing how powerful stories can emerge from seemingly ordinary lives. With no studio backing, he handled nearly every aspect of production himself, from writing and directing to navigating the complex logistics of filming around work and family obligations. His process may not have been glamorous, but it was deeply fulfilling. For David, filmmaking is less about chasing fame and more about personal expression — an act of discovery that connects his inner world with the outside one.

One of the most inspiring aspects of David’s journey is his practical approach to the creative process. He emphasizes planning and structure but always leaves room for experimentation and intuition. He doesn’t believe in waiting for perfect conditions — because they never come. “If you wait for the right time to make a movie,” he says, “you’ll never make it.” That philosophy has not only driven his filmmaking but also influenced his outlook on life. By treating creativity as a discipline rather than a luxury, he’s managed to produce meaningful work while maintaining balance in his career and home life.

Beyond his own films, David encourages other aspiring filmmakers to start wherever they are. He often mentors local creators and reminds them that filmmaking is more accessible than ever. Affordable digital cameras, editing software, and online resources have eliminated many of the old barriers to entry. What remains, he insists, is the challenge of motivation — the courage to take the first step. His own story is living proof that passion and persistence can turn the impossible into reality.

David Ash represents the new wave of independent filmmakers: grounded, determined, and driven by purpose rather than prestige. His career is a masterclass in making art on your own terms — carving out time, embracing constraints, and never losing sight of the joy of creation. In an industry obsessed with overnight success, he stands as a reminder that the most meaningful journeys are built one weekend at a time.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:49
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:54
On today's episode, I chat with a filmmaker who actually lives two lives, which I think all of us do because, you know, in the day, we work a day job, and then we make films on the weekends or at night or wherever we can, until we can make movies full time. You know, it's kind of like a side gig or a side hustle or a weekend warrior type thing. So usually, if you're like me, you kind of hide that side you kind of make, you know, I have two linkedins, I have two different Twitters, etc, because you don't want them to bleed into each other, because usually it doesn't end well. My next guest, he actually constantly just goes out and says, Yeah, I make films the weekend. See, I was in the paper, and I also work at this company. So he's kind of like the Iron Man. He know he's just at the end he's, oh, by the way, I'm Iron Man. I do all this stuff, and if you don't like it, whatever, but, but he's embraced it, and it's worked very well for him. We're going to talk about his new movie called Twin Cities, about living a double life. And we're talking about filmmaking and winning writing contests and being flown out to LA and then he saw the frustration not being able to make his own movies because these guys weren't going to make it. We're going to talk about all that stuff. Really cool interview. So without further ado, with guest David Ash.

David Ash 3:01
Yeah long story short, I did well enough one of these creating contests that they brought back to LA to kind of do the LA thing and meet with some producers and stuff like that. And, you know, I really realized from that experience that basically there's no way how they're gonna make my movie. And that became pretty apparent, not that became pretty apparent, not that they didn't like it just wasn't the kind of stuff that they were interested in. So from there, you know, pretty much on the flight from from LA, I decided I wanted to just learn how to make films so that they actually got made, rather than just stacking up on my my shelf here. So, so we have a IFP, I'm not sure if that or not. It's independent feature project, which is a kind of local thing here in the Twin Cities, for filmmaking, photography. And I started taking a lot of classes there. You know, everything had taken filmmaking, screenwriting, directing, you know, editing, lighting, audio, anything they would provide I would, I would take it and just kind of learned it that way. And then, you know, got into one of the classes. I think it was intro to film production, and in the class, we actually had to make a short film. So I made a short film in the class, just using other students in the class. We shot it about two and a half hours. Cost about 15 bucks to make it. And it actually got to some festivals, and, you know, played in a few of these fests, not just here, but, you know, internationally. And that was really kind of the spark for the whole thing. So after that, the actually, the guy that was teaching that class asked me if I wanted to keep making films. I'm like, Yeah, of course I do. So he was actually also the facilities director of the IFP, so we could get our equipment for free. So from there, we just started making short films. I think we made five or six in about a year. This is now probably 1112, years ago. So those did pretty well. Gotten some Fest and such. And then, you know, got a little tired of just making short films. And then I made my first feature about 10 years ago, was a mockumentary called Love a documentary. And we made the whole thing for 800 bucks. But, yeah, I think it would say $1,000 film, if you ask me. But you know, definitely not high budget. But that actually gotten some tests as well. And you know, from there, I've made two, two more, much more, bigger budget films since then, but that was really the short of the whole thing.

Dave Bullis 5:35
So you mentioned you have a degree in business administration, as do I. So it's kind of, it's kind of, it's kind of ironic, because you and I see that's one of the reasons I want to talk to you, because you and I have a very similar path. Because I have a degree in business administration, I thought about going for an MBA, and I said, What the hell am I thinking? And and I decided, you know, I used to work at a college, and they were going to offer me a free masters, and I decided not to go that route. And it wasn't the MBA. There's a couple different options. And I thought, I don't feel like going for two more years of school for a degree that I just don't know if I'm going to fully use. So, you know, but it was, was very similar, though, because during college, I realized that I didn't want to really do go into business or anything like that. So it's, you know, it's just kind of ironic, because, you know, if you got that business degree, you know, and you know, you mentioned that you started taking some screenwriting courses. We know were these, like online seminars.

David Ash 6:34
Now, there's a place here called the it's actually a literary loft. It's a place that offers you just writing classes of all kind. And one was a screenwriting class. It was at night, you know, once a week for probably two months. It wasn't anything huge, and that was really the only screenwriting class I had, but it was, it really helped to kind of understand the mechanics of the film, you know, writing works and such. So that was, that was how I got started screenwriting, as far as the educational part of it.

Dave Bullis 7:00
So, so when you did take that course, you know, what, like, what were some of the things that, really, you know, stood out for, for you for taking that course,

David Ash 7:09
You know, I think the first thing was, you know, script, I shouldn't be 400 pages. I think that was a good learning, you know, because I was just writing and writing, and the teachers like, you know, you got to pair this thing down quite a bit. We can't have, you know, 50 pages of just dialog in a row. It was just kind of learning film language and, you know, three act structure, all that kind of good stuff. So I was really a babe in the woods before I took that class. And then I've kind of learned more as I've done it since then. But it was really just the basics, and then, you know, earning your, you know, your ending, that kind of thing. I was kind of big thing with that instructor. But that was really just the start of, I think I've learned a lot since then, just doing the screenwriting, the filmmaking, but that was the first time I actually had understood you couldn't just write four or 500 pages and call that a film, right?

Dave Bullis 8:01
Yeah, and definitely. And just to go along with that, it's also about, you know, writing a scene. What makes a scene, putting all those together, actually, making sure the screenplay actually, you know, works. And it's not just basically a collection of, you know, someone's day as they sort of just go through the minutia, you know, is, I mean, because you you knew writing going into this so you, I'm sure you knew about tension and building characters already, right?

David Ash 8:29
Yeah, but yeah, I mean, not, not in the form of filmmaking, though I kind of, you know, I knew it for the literary side of things. And, you know, the biggest thing just was, for me, it was learning that, you know you can do in film with, you know, three or four lines and the right shots, what you would normally do in three or four pages in a book, for example, and just paring everything down to and something I'm still learning, I'll put everything down to just exactly what you need, nothing more. So that takes a long time to learn. If you're not used to that, you want to just kind of expound on everything ad nauseam, which I learned very quickly, was not the way to go about it.

Dave Bullis 9:05
Yeah, very true, yeah, you know. And what I was just getting at was, you know, just about coming to building characters, you know, like character descriptions and stuff like that, obviously, you know, you can't put in, like Netflix Fitzgerald prose, where, you know, he describes the curtains or whatever, you know, for a couple pages. But, you know, it's about economy of words. So, you know, if it was all over, did you actually have a, you know, a 90 or 100 page screenplay?

David Ash 9:31
Yeah, I think I got it down to maybe 21, 30. You know, that was the script I used to kind of get into the contest and and such. And you know, some of those contests, if you do well enough, they give you, like, free feedback. So that was a good learning as well. And you know, for me, the biggest thing that helped me with screenwriting was just having to actually make the damn things myself right, because then you realize if you're making these kind of amateur mistakes, once you get on the set, you know it's your responsibility to make it in a film, and you learn very quickly. You know, when you're directing, what you're what you're writing, that the script has to be something that's directable, so that just kind of diving in and starting to make films after I had, you know, just only written a few scripts, was definitely the best education I had, you know, in my whole career, was just go ahead and doing it and getting progressively better at understanding what a script should should do and how it should look, in terms of, you know, building scenes and such, and you can't replace just having to do it yourself, I think any kind of film, film school or class. So that's my biggest advice to filmmakers and folks wanting to film like he's always, you know, don't, don't necessarily go to film school. Just, you know, start making a film even it's going to suck and it will suck. You know, the first day will definitely suck, but you have to just kind of learn by doing otherwise. You know, you're not going to quite internalize what you need to internalize in terms of how it's actually done.

Dave Bullis 11:11
Yeah, it's kind of like what Rob Rodriguez says. You know, basically you have, like, a bunch of bad movies in you, and you have to get them out as soon as possible.

David Ash 11:19
Absolutely true. Yeah, I still, if you probably haven't gotten out yet, but we're getting there, you know, depending how you talk to I think we're gotten most of them out.

Dave Bullis 11:27
Yeah, I found the key is, is to just when you're first starting out, especially is to aim low. And what I mean by that is, don't say like, Hey, listen, I'm gonna go out this weekend. I'm gonna, I'm gonna shoot a short film for 10 grand, and we're gonna have blood and squibs and, you know, blanks and everything else, and we need, I mean, I think that's where just a lot of filmmakers tend to shoot themselves in the foot.

David Ash 11:52
Yeah, that's absolutely true. I've said that before in similar kind of interviews and panels about, you know, you wonder if you're having to make what you write, you realize very quickly that you have to write to what you can make, right? You have to write something you can actually shoot. And I, you know, I learned that pretty early on. I made a short film. I want to get into it, but it was just a effing nightmare because I fell in love with the script and then trying to make it became just a vortex of pain and agony for everyone involved for a very long time. And I was like, you know, I'm never again going to write a script that I can't actually make very, you know, reasonably underneath the budget that I've got. Otherwise it's just pointless and just leads to a lot of frustration and people hating you.

Dave Bullis 12:40
Yeah, that's very true. But I think we all have those stories, you know, Dave, I think we all those stories where we tried to do something a little too much too quickly, and it ended up, you know, we kind of brought some people down with us. I made a short film one time that literally everything that could go wrong went wrong. And finally we were like, This was after the whole day, everything was going wrong, right? And we had to go outside to shoot this one scene. And I thought, mate, hey, listen, you know what? This can't go wrong, right? This cannot go wrong, Dave, I shit you not. It starts pouring rain like you didn't believe and I said to myself, I go this. This can't be happening. Like, I have to be in bed dreaming that this is all just happening and I'm gonna wake up. But no, it's, it was real life. Unfortunately, I just, I ended up shortly then after that, the director of cinematography actually just like vanished, and I couldn't find and I was like, What the hell. And so I and just, you know, just to surmise that whole story, I actually met him or reconnect with him, probably a few years ago, and I actually asked him, I said, Did I do something? Was it that day that did it? And he goes, Well, that day was bad. He goes, but the whole but he's like, the whole reason was, and there was a whole other reason that was going on in his personal life that thankfully had nothing to do with me. I didn't want to be responsible for this guy quitting film.

David Ash 14:08
Yeah, well, it's good to talk to him. Otherwise, your whole life, thought he hated you. So that's just good,

Dave Bullis 14:09
No, but you mentioned your short film that when everything went wrong. And, you know, again, I think we all have those. And so as you you know, started to go through, you know, deciding to make, you know, more films, you know, you worked a day job at the same time.

David Ash 14:27
Yeah, I always have that's, that's kind of, I think the unique thing about what I do is that, yeah, I didn't just, you know, go into writing. After I got the NBA, actually went into business, and I've, this is probably 20 years ago. Graduate from grad school and been in corporate finance ever since. So, yeah, I'm currently a executive lab here in St Paul. And, you know, that's a pretty evolving gig. You know, probably 5060, hours a week on that side of things. I've got. For kids, ages 13 through 17, that is a little consuming, pretty much all the time. And then, yeah, then doing the film stuff on top of that. So it's really been, you know, just trying to find a way to do it and just doing it. You know, it's no real easy explanation for, you know, making six short films or three pictures the last 13 years, other than just willing yourself to do it, because it's, you got to love it or you won't, you won't do it, I guess is the easiest thing I'd say. But it's, it's not for everybody. But I think I have a pretty good example of, you know, if you want to make a film, get into filmmaking. You know, I mentioned some of the budgets that I worked on were pretty much peanuts. And you really don't have an excuse for at least not trying it, given the way the technology is now and how you can make a film for cheap. And you just kind of do it when you have time. And, you know, I think, if nothing else, my story is something that hopefully can inspire folks to just, you know, not say I can't do this because I've got a day job and I've got a family and I've got everything else in my life. Because, you know, if I were waiting for that stuff to not be around, I would never made a film. So I'm glad I've done it. It's kind of exhausting sometimes, but it's also gives you energy, because it makes you, you know, want to get up and keep keep pushing at it. So I'll keep doing it. You know, it's something I love to do.

Dave Bullis 16:31
So I wanted to ask, what, when? So does he ever come back? Does it ever sort of, so, what I mean by that is, Do people ever like search for you online, and they'll say, Hey, Dave, is this you? Or something like that, where you're well, because at work, I imagine that happens because, I mean, imagine people are because, you know, you're the Treasury director, and I imagine you probably, you know, people look you up on LinkedIn or what have you, and I'm sure they're probably like, Hey, Dave, is this you in the local paper, or whatever?

David Ash 17:01
Yeah, yeah, it happens a lot. I mean, it it really started happening last fall. We did our most recent feature. Twin Cities actually had its local premiere here in October. And as part of that, there was big feature stories in both the the Minneapolis paper as well as the St Paul paper in consecutive Sundays. And that kind of reaches pretty much everybody in the state that reads, you know. So there was a lot of that, you know, at work on Monday, like, Wow, I did not. He did this because I don't talk about it at work, and I don't really, it's not something that a lot of folks are he doesn't, doesn't doesn't come up in a lot of meetings about finance and accounting. Let's put that way. But yeah, folks definitely at that point were very supportive and very interested, but also very shocked that I was doing this on the side, in addition to, you know, being a treasury director for E collab. So it's most people think it's great. Some people were just like, What the fuck are you doing? You know, but overall, most positive,

Dave Bullis 18:06
Yeah, I was expecting that a lot of people would be like, Oh, hey, Dave, you know, why are you doing this and this? Or maybe even saying, because, I mean that that's happened to it to a lot of different people on this podcast, where they've worked a day job, and, you know, they worked, you know, what the hell. But did anybody ever come up to you and like, pitch like, hey, you know, I have a friend or daughter or cousin that wants to be in movies?

David Ash 18:29
Yeah. I mean, I I get that more like when I do some panels now and then, I always have one personal kind of, sheepishly walk up to me. I had one not too long ago, and it was her husband always wanted to write a screenplay, and we meet with them, and, you know, basically be his mentor. I I'll talk to him. I'm not going to, you know, going to readjust my life for his film career. But that's, that's something that's pretty common there, and then that work. It's more like, Hey, I once knew a person that wrote a book, and that's pretty cool, too. And, you know, there's not many filmmakers in corporate finance, I would just say, as a rule, but everyone knows somebody that does something sort of similar, and they want to talk to you about which I think is great, you know. But yeah, I've had that experience quite a bit actually.

Dave Bullis 19:15
So have you ever actually met with somebody? So if somebody has ever requested it, like, Hey, Dave, will you just meet my husband, wife or whatever? Have you ever actually sat down and met somebody?

David Ash 19:34
I'm probably not, probably always figure out a way out of it. Nothing's going to mind. I I'll have a drink with somebody, like, after a film panel and that kind of thing, and, but nothing like formal like, hey, please show me how to do what you've been doing. But I'm always, I usually just gonna send some links to some stuff and, and given contact with the IFP here, which is a great place, like, I got started, to get started and throw them that way, because they got all the classes there to get involved and all that. But yeah, I don't generally do a lot of one to one mentoring, I guess I'd say,

Dave Bullis 20:17
Yes, I noticed that comes up a lot too. Is the whole like, Hey, would you mind meeting somebody? I agreed to it one time, and I think the the person I met was had a different idea of what screenwriting was or is. Basically, I just started talking about screenwriting theory. I said, you know, what are your questions? What do you have? What do you want to know? And I did this for a friend. You know, this is kind of like a professional acquaintance, slash kind of sort of a friend, if you know what I mean. And I met with her and went with her daughter, and I her daughter, I think was just kind of a little taken aback, and didn't really have any questions. I think she was kind of expecting me to like, Hey, here's the key to all of this, and this is what unlocks all the doors,

David Ash 21:01
Right! Yeah, that's what folks, generally, I've talked to think as well, is that you can just kind of, like, to the extent I've talked to folks, but then when I do, it's generally like, you know, when you know, send me an email with how you did this, right? And it's like, well, it kind of takes 1214, years of work to kind of work to kind of get even to where I'm at, which is not exactly, you know, big budgets, big budget land, but yeah, it's folks think it's just something you just kind of write down on a piece of paper and you to somebody, you know,

Dave Bullis 21:34
Yes, and, and I once was out of writing a seminar slash pitch event, and this mutual friend of mine, you know, came walk up to me and said to me, you know, hey, Dave, I want you to meet somebody. And this guy, he was wanting to get into screenwriting. And every question was about basically money. Was like, do they still give people million dollar contracts this and that? I'm like, What do you care? You've been written anything like they could give them $10 billion what does it matter to you? Does it matter to you?

David Ash 22:03
Yeah, yeah. It said, yeah. Good thing to know about filmmaking is like, yeah. I think about half percent actually make a pretty good living at it. And the other 99.5 are just, you know, doing it because they love it, honestly. And most folks don't realize that, you know, they watch the Oscars, like, a few days ago. And I think that you're making film. That you're making films, you must be rolling and rolling in it. That's pretty much the opposite. You just have to do it and love it, and hopefully something comes through at some point. But otherwise, you know, I, I haven't made a ton of money, and I'm happy with what I've done. So, you know, that's usually the end result of this kind of stuff.

Dave Bullis 22:42
Yeah, yeah, right. And so, so just continue on with your with your journey, you know, after you, you know, we were told we before we get to Twin Cities, you know, I just want to ask you about any of the other short films. You know, before we talk about Twin Cities, is there anything else that that's sort of really like you wanted to, sort of like talk about, or discuss, to focus on, just because, you know, usually the short films, as you know, Dave, are kind of like the setup for a feature film.

David Ash 23:04
Yeah, it's a great way to get started. I would definitely recommend doing shorts. I've gone some filmmakers that just go directly into features, and I don't think that's the way to go. I mean, a lot of these shorts were five to 10 minutes, you know, some of them were like 50 bucks. But, you know, they all played a small to medium sized festivals, which is great, but I would definitely go that route. I think I would have not probably done any differently than i i did it if I had to do it over again, which was make five, five or six shorts, and then kind of get your your voice and what you want to do with film dialed in before you tackle a feature. So, you know, I would say, you know, do that and then put it online. You know, you're, you're not going to find a more ruthless audience than putting something on YouTube. So that's a good indoctrination to, you know, film criticism for you, because the comments there will, if you can, if you can stomach that, then you can probably sound like making a feature film, because that's, that's a great proving ground, I think, is getting on YouTube and getting some clicks. We did have one that went pretty viral, a couple 100,000 I think, pretty quickly, and it was very politically oriented. And that's one thing I learned about, you know, that kind of, you know, getting short films out there is a bit politically oriented that it seems that folks were really ready to jump in on one side or the other on it. And that was definitely the most, the biggest short film we had was, was what had a pretty, pretty hard liberal bent to it. And you could get all of the, all the Trump, Trumpsters and such out of the woodwork to really, you know, share with their friends because they hate it so much, or vice versa. And, you know, I guess I'm trying to say, if you want clicks, make it politically oriented on one side of the other. And that's kind of the milieu right now. And online is political stuff. If that folks just want to either attack it vociferously and send their friends who they hate it, or send their friends they love it. But that was my experience with short filmmaking. Was that we made some films I thought were much better, but they didn't have anywhere near the traction of that.

Dave Bullis 25:11
And that was the Obamacare website explanation, right?

David Ash 25:17
No, it was actually not that one, that one, that one was out there too, but it was about, it was about a father talking to a son, and the father was very hardcore right wing, and the son was very liberal, and kind of setting him straight as they went along the path there. And we did it for actually a political action group called Live liberal, and they asked us to make the short films myself and this other guy that I mentioned that got me into filmmaking, and we did it just for them, and then just kind of took off from there. But, yeah, the Obama thing was also pretty political, but this one was very at a very defined point of view, which really kind of set some folks off, which was fine with me.

Dave Bullis 26:03
I mean, well, you're at least invoking some kind of emotion, right? I know that's what we're after, right?

David Ash 26:09
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, for sure.

Dave Bullis 26:12
So, you know, with the Obamacare website explanation, I haven't actually seen that, and I actually saw that, and I was like, did he make a video for about the Obamacare website? Because I know it's possible, but then, you know, I imagine it was probably, you know, like a parody video,

David Ash 26:26
Yeah, that was basically that was going back a few years. That was when Obama, the website, if you recall, didn't exactly set the world on fire, and they had a ton of problems with it. So he had this kind of Obama fam. It was very earnest, kind of Rose Garden explanation for all the things that have gone wrong with it and why that was okay and it was still going to be great. And what i did was i Subtitled that with what he was actually trying to say, which was, of course, heavily satirized, and that kind of thing. So it was, you know, I set myself a liberal, but that was pretty much making fun of Obama, which went the other way as the other short film. So I'll say that if you want to check it out, but that did not know as much any clicks as the one that pissed off the Republicans.

Dave Bullis 27:17
So, so once you actually started, you know, you know, making these short films, you know, making them for, you know, 50, 80, 100 bucks. You mentioned you made a another film for 1000 the feature film for 1000 you know, you know. So what was the, you know, the impetus there, you know, did you start with the budget, or did you sort of write it and say, you know, hey, look, it's only gonna cost 1000 to make this.

David Ash 27:41
No, it actually, that would actually start as a short film. And it was the whole setup was, was cheap to begin with. It was basically a mockumentary about a guy who, you know, worked in an office, and he thought that God had come to him and implored him to spread love and joy throughout the world. So it was this kind of found footage, type of Doc about this guy and his, you know, very jaded co workers, and, you know, kind of played off the tension between that so you had kind of scenes of this person talking, which actually was played by myself, and then scenes of things just going horribly wrong in the office as he tried to kind of impart this spiritual journey he was on, and we shot it actually at IFP, using the equipment from IFP, and, you know, some actually professional actors, believe it or not, from the area, they were willing to do it for, you know, pizza and Diet Coke. And it was literally like 800 bucks for 83 minute feature film, which, again, Cindy, if you want to watch it or link to your podcast listeners. And it actually played at some festivals and did very well, won award. And it was, you know, people either loved it or hated it, and those that loved it really loved it, and those that hate it really hate it. But it was, it was really proving for me that I actually could make a feature film. And until then, it was just kind of something that other people did. And, you know, we started with the short film, and I just keep writing more and more pages along the lines of this story. And before we knew we had 40 or 50 minutes, I'm like, Well, if it's gonna be that long, let's make it a feature. And we just flew it out to a full arc of a film, I think, was 83 minutes in total, and just did it on, you know, literally less than 1000 bucks.

Dave Bullis 29:23
And, you know, once you actually were able to shoot this, you know, what, what locations were you like using? Did you use, you know, did you, I mean, do you ever while, while I'm thinking of it, I'll kind of shoot myself with another question, do you ever, do you ever shoot at your office? I mean, obviously, if you answer that, you don't have to. But if that's like the secret.

David Ash 29:41
But no, we not at my office, but we shot at for both, a couple scenes in Twin Cities and a couple scenes in 2021 my second feature, we shot at my wife's office, which is was Minnesota Public Radio. So they, they were very, you know, accommodating that kind of endeavor, and they let us shoot there for free. And it was great. So I we shot in an office just online for the last, the last two pictures.

Dave Bullis 30:24
So they just basically, do they ask you, like, anything like the usual two questions are, is there nudity and is there blood? That's, every time I've walked up to locations, that is the two questions, is there violence, like blood, or is there nudity and and usually the answer is, yes, no.

David Ash 30:43
There's actually a no on both those accounts for us, even better, even better. But they didn't ask. We could have done that. I should have probably thrown that in there, you know. So no, no duty or violence. But not because we couldn't.

Dave Bullis 30:57
It's usually when, when you when you're asking those things they do. They ask you about insurance.

David Ash 30:57
They were just incredibly relaxed about the whole thing. No, they didn't ask shit. It was just kind of like, we're gonna come in on a Saturday and we're gonna shoot from, you know, eight to five. And, you know, my wife came with me, because she works there, and didn't really ask any questions. They were, they thought it was great. So I think that's you got to really be careful. You choose. I don't think my E collab would have been that way where I work. So they were just like, hey, just go ahead and do it.

Dave Bullis 31:30
So got lucky, very lucky, my friend. See, that's the thing, man, when you have a connect there and you're able to come in professional and also, you know, you're still in an area where, hey, filmmaking is, you know, people have been beat over the head with it, like a sack of oranges. You're kind of like, hey, look, you know, it's still cool and neat. And, you know, Dave's wife works here and this and that, you know, because, because, you know, they always say in LA and New York, as soon as we ask the film somewhere, it becomes, like a huge pain in the ass. And they're like, another thing must have, you know what I mean. And it just, it doesn't have that that cool cache anymore. So Philly was kind of like that for a while. Now it's back up to be like, Hey, you're doing something. Are Awesome. I want to help you out, but those are the things that for all the listeners I keep harping on about locations. It's the blood Gore, the violence, the nudity. They sometimes ask about insurance. I mean, you can always sign waivers, but, I mean, if they allow you just to like, hey, look, you know, we trust you and you're not gonna do anything crazy. You know that that you can't beat that. It's amazing.

David Ash 32:29
Yeah, that was actually probably the easiest location we had. I mean, we had some that were not, not easy. We shot a day at a hospital, er parking lot, and it was, I didn't have this. I didn't have permission for it. We got permission for everything else, but we were going to get it, but we needed this very key scene, which is actually the last scene in the film. And we shot pretty much an entire day, and it was all an interior of of of my SUV. And about halfway through, they came out with security, and they said, you know, what? What the fuck are you doing here, basically. And I'm not sure what, what words I strung together to get them to go away, but somehow I did it, and we just kept shooting. And it, you know, day turn to night, and they finally came out with more security dudes and probably some firearms and and such. And they're like, Okay, whatever you're gonna tell us, it's not gonna work. You need to get the hell out of here. And fortunately, we were done except for one shot, so we went to a different parking lot where we could just do the exterior shot and and patch together and work perfectly. But that was probably the most stressful day of shooting I've ever had, because you had, you know, er, parking lot and kind of swarming security guards, and I knew we had, we probably couldn't shoot anywhere else and get the same kind of shot, and we had to have the scene to make the film work. So, you know, I wouldn't recommend that, but we did it.

Dave Bullis 34:05
So lesson learned. Well, you know that that's amazing, that you were able to get them go away the first time.

David Ash 34:11
Yeah, I recall what I said. I probably pulled some, I have no idea, pulled my butt. I can, could not tell you, but they, I think they just scratched their heads and left, and we just Okay, let's keep shooting. And we powered through. And we've had, you know, I've had a few similar shoots like that, where you're just really on a tight deadline, but they always know you're, you're that you're supposed to be there. But this was one where we just said, Fuck it. We're just gonna do it, even though we're not supposed to be there. And, you know, it's in the film so it works out.

Dave Bullis 34:43
You, I mean, like, literally, you guys just rolled up into that hospital parking lot and, like, it was shoot here.

David Ash 34:48
Yeah, they had, I just got, like, I got having eight or nine other er parking lots, and I wanted something that where we could, it's hard to describe. I want a certain. Shot, and I wanted to have, like, the emergency parking lot sign in the background, and to make it all kind of come together. And it was the only parking lot I could find that works. I really wanted to shoot there. I didn't think we'd have a shot in hell if we asked. So we just kind of just did it, you know.

Dave Bullis 35:22
And that's gorilla filmmaking, right? You got to just, you just got to go out there and do it, you know, I imagine. And I'm just gonna just, just food for thought, Dave, I'm gonna imagine that. When they probably approached you, they probably said, Are you guys supposed to be here or something like that? And you probably said, oh, yeah, yeah, we're just finishing up and this and that. And they probably went away. They go check, because I've seen that happen before. They're like, Oh, are you guys supposed to be here? Yes. And then by the time they get back, you either gone or they forgotten, or they don't care anymore. They to even pass it up the line and and, but it seems like that time they actually did. They actually was probably.

David Ash 35:57
Three or four hours later. That's a thing I knew there. If they're gonna go check, I think it was kind of like, well, these guys will leave pretty soon. Anyway, we'll let this one go, but we're out there four or five hours later. They're probably okay. This is not cool. So I'm not, I can't say I'm proud of that, but it turned out great, you know? And that's, that's, that's the non Hollywood filmmaking right there.

Dave Bullis 36:23
Yeah, it's the true indie film, spirit, man, my friend, it's, that's what that is. That's what you got to do. You got to, you got to steal locations at times. And that's, you know, I once, I was talking to Scott McMahon, who runs film Trooper, and I told him, I said, I think that's the number one problem for most filmmakers, is getting locations. And I honestly, I often said, you know, be a great idea. It could never work. But here's my idea, Dave, a it's like a hub, kind of like Facebook, where you could friend another filmmaker. And let's say, you know, you you and I both lived and let's just say Boise Idaho, well, I have film connections. And, you know, you have film connections. Well, we could sort of put up the put up on a poster or whatever. Hey, look. This is who I know at this hospital. This is what they did. They let me shoot here. You know what I mean? Like, obviously you wouldn't do it to your for your own house, unless you were insane. But you know, if they, if you what, they will let you shoot somewhere. Like, hey, this is an abandoned house. This is how I got to shoot there. Blah, blah. And that's basically, it almost become, like this collage of sorts of city by city of all the places where you could, where you could shoot, and that are, that are friend friendly to filmmakers.

David Ash 37:34
Oh, that's a great idea. Yeah, that's, you know, someone we got through the film war. They would post locations online, and you'd call the film or say, hey, look that that's a film friendly place. And they would always say, Yes, but I love your idea. I mean anything like that, because it's very daunting when you start on indie film to not know where you can shoot it. And you know, when you don't have a lot of cash to give these guys to shoot, you're really just kind of begging, which I've done a lot of, but you kind of just kind of learn how to what they want to hear, you know. Like I said, insurance. We generally do get insurance and waivers, all that kind of stuff, you know. And you figure out, you know what, what to say to get the location and but every location I think I've had even, you know, where we're supposed to be, it's, it's super stressful, because usually it's, in my case, it's been, you know, a bar that opens at 11 for lunch. So you've got, like, four in the morning till 1130 and then you got to get in six pages or something. And every single location shoot I've been on, besides my wife's office, it's been that kind of pressure, and that's because comes with the territory, I think, you know, that's again, the non Hollywood filmmaking, that you just somehow make it work, right?

Dave Bullis 38:49
Yeah, exactly, because I, and I've been there before too, man, where I've shown up on a Saturday morning at like, six or 7am and they're like, Oh yeah, well, we're gonna open today at one or whatever. And you're like, All right, well, here we go. Let's get let's get rolling with this bad boy. And so, I mean, and I've been there, man, where people don't show up, you know, people show up late, or ultra late. I mean, I, you know, at some point I should just do a podcast, one episode, where I just tell stories, but all the other horror stories I have, but I remember. I mean, some of these were people would show up, not at all, and you're sitting there calling them, and they're like, Oh, I forgot today was the thing. And I'm like, Well, I sent you 10,000 emails. How the hell did you fit this?

David Ash 39:32
Yeah, that's that is the the most you can count on. That more than else in any film. I guess somebody's not gonna show up or show up late. And you know that that's that's a given. I mean, Twin Cities another kind of example of working around stuff. Have you seen the film or not? But the lead character, the lead character, Emily, is played by Bethany Ford Binkley, and she's awesome.But she was actually had like a five month old kid when we were shooting, so she'd sometimes have to bring her baby on set, and it would use a nanny there for but we'd be through halfway through a really intense scene, it's going, well, the baby start crying. And that would be done to that. And those were a few shoots like that. So it was always something. It is always something when you're working on this kind of level of filmmaking, and you just kind of have to not get frustrated and just, you know, work around it somehow. But, yeah, it's everything in the kitchen sink for every, every, every shoot that I've been on at this level.

Dave Bullis 40:50
Yeah, you mentioned Twin Cities, and I wanted to ask you about that film now, because that's, you know, I know you actually debuted that film, and, you know, it's been playing in a few festivals. So I wanted to ask, you know, if you could just go take us through the film, you know, give us a log line, if you could?

David Ash 41:08
Yeah. So it's actually a sequel to 2021 my second feature film, but it's a very kind of spiritual sequel, versus like a traditional sequel, but it picks up four years later with these lead characters, John, Emily, and they're married now. And the elite character, Emily, as I mentioned, she's actually pregnant. Someone's pregnant with their first kid. And that kind of sends the husband, John into a tailspin. And you know, things are really falling apart, and looks like it's all going to kind of turn a shit for for the couple and their lives. And he gets his cancer diagnosis, which shakes him out of his his downward spiral, and sets him on kind of a new course in life, to make amends with his wife, and to kind of find his God and go on this sort of spiritual journey to find himself. And that's the basic side of the film. There is about halfway through a very, I would say, extreme twist, which I generally don't give away, in case folks want to see the film. But it really, from that point on, becomes a much different kind of film, in terms of, I would say, a different kind of film, but the plot kind of turns on its head and becomes a sort of a more reflective type of narrative structure. That is really the reason why it's called Twin Cities, besides the fact I live here, it's, it's got a kind of dualistic narrative that plays out after this very jarring twist to the plot. And it, you know, it kind of gets bananas from there at that point. So that's probably as much I can tell you without spoiling the whole damn thing. But that's, that's the basic setup of the film.

Dave Bullis 43:01
And so, you know, once you actually wrote the screenplay for this, Dave, you know, how did you go about raising the funds to actually shoot this? Did you sell finance this movie?

David Ash 43:10
Most of it, yeah. I mean, generally, what I've done is I just put my annual bonus my job. And I, you know, I just put my bonus in it when I'm making a film. And I never really use my actual paycheck for filmmaking. So you know, for this one, I used a couple bonuses, and I used, I got a snow bait from the Minnesota Film Board. They they paid for a good chunk of it through their rebate program, which is really an incentive to to film in Minnesota. And that was that was very helpful as well.

Dave Bullis 43:47
So when you told your wife you wanted to make a film with the bonus, did she just? Did you think you were crazy or, or she used to it like, oh, okay, David,

David Ash 43:58
Yeah, no, she's been great. I mean, she's got kind of her own artistic endeavors, so it kind of humans out. I won't go into that, but it kind of, we both have this sort of side thing. We do our job. She's a HR director, and has her own kind of career, but then she also does a lot of artistic stuff on the side that balances out what I do. So we're very accounting with each other, like, you know, hey, I want to, you know, spend some cash on this thing that I really am passionate about. And it really wasn't very hard to sell. I did the same thing for a second film, and she was around for that as well. So it, I think it'd be different if I was saying, Well, look, you know, we're gonna have trouble maybe making mortgage now, because I use my paycheck for this, the fact that's really just my bonus, it's kind of like, well, it's found one anyway, and, you know, go for it. So she's been great, honestly, not kind of the opposite of what you might expect, but she's been fantastic about the whole thing,

Dave Bullis 44:53
Yeah, and, you know, that's good that, you know, she's supportive of this, and so we're. Can be able to find out more about Twin Cities.

David Ash 45:03
Yeah, so website is just Twin Cities, the film.com We've got our trailer on there, a ton of stuff, you know, clips from the film, synopsis, a bunch of reviews for the film. We've actually got, I think, really great reviews for the film. So it's a lot of that on there, cast and crew bios. You know, all the, all the stuff you'd want on a website. More is on there,

Dave Bullis 45:27
And I will link to that in the show notes but Dave, just, just in closing, you know, I wanted to ask, is there anything we get a chance to talk about that you want to just to say right now? Anything want to discuss right now or, or maybe it's just something you want to say to put a period at the end of this whole conversation?

David Ash 45:44
Um, yeah, I guess. Well, two things. I mean, first of all, what I'm working on now, I've been working on a TV series since we finished Twin Cities production about a year, year and a half ago. So that's kind of my next thing. So I'm, you know, you know, doing press for the film, but also kind of trying to, you know, generate some possible interest in in this. I think it's gonna be a nine episode, first season series I'm working on that hopefully we'll get some external financing for and not use my bonus for that. So that's the first thing, is just kind of throwing that out there, that that's sort of my next project, and I'm really excited about it. Yeah, beyond that, I think, you know, you know, I think what's interesting about my story, probably the reason I'd be honest, is because I've got this whole other life besides filmmaking. So, you know, I do try to encourage folks that want to get into filmmaking, but think that they can't because they've got this, you know, very consuming day job or anything else in life that think is is not gonna let it happen, that that's possible. And you really just need to start and just do it, you know. Rather than you know, think about doing it, or reading books about doing it and and such. If you want to make it into filming, I would say, you know, start with a two minute film. And whatever money you have for, if it's a $10.10 bucks you got laying around, make a $10.02 minute film. You got 100 bucks. Me 100 film. But, you know, just encourage folks to, if they've always wanted to get into filmmaking, just do it. And if you go to my website and go to the contact page, I think that goes directly to my email. If you are interested this kind of thing, you want to kind of know more about how I've, you know, been making this kind of life work with filmmaking and everything else you know, definitely email me and I can help you out as much as I can. But that's, that's the big thing I want to get across as well to your audience, is that, you know, trying to encourage folks to to get into filmmaking that maybe are not sure if they they can or have the time to do it.

Dave Bullis 47:43
Yeah! Just don't ask you for mentorships, right? Like, don't ask to take you meet somebody.

David Ash 47:48
Yeah, I was probably, it was probably overly, you know, whatever about that, but I, I'm happy to impart whatever advice I have. But, yeah, I can't do a full time mentorship at this point, unfortunately, but maybe someday that'll be part of the mix. But right now, it's not

Dave Bullis 48:04
What you know. It's like I say Dave, when any, anybody who listens to this podcast or what have you asked to meet me for coffee or to meet me, meet me for coffee, or what have you and or whatever, I always say this. I said it's pointless. If you shot me an email, it would, it would do you 10 times the benefit than meeting me for coffee, right? Because we both have to drive out there. Gotta find parking. It's gonna be crowded, it's gonna be loud. And what, you know, if you, if you send an email, it's, you know, you could do it from anywhere. You do it on your way to work or whatever, and you get a lot more from it, you know, maybe not in the short, short run, but over the long run, if you just keep going back and forth, it's a lot it's worth a lot more. Maybe even one email in general is worth a lot more, because you could actually just detail things out, and then you also have a written transcription almost of what the meeting would have been. I just have never or the second part is, you know, just meet me at an event. You know, if I'm ever at one of these events, the events, the blacklist Philly, I might end up going to one of their events. I'm not sure, though I haven't, I don't know. I'm kind of networked event out, Dave, I don't know if you are, but I'm just like, people invite me all the time to these things. And I'm like, You know what? I've done a ton of them when I when I was just starting out, and I got burned out of them real quick, and I haven't been back since. You know, it's just, I just sometimes feel it's a lot of, you know, I was once, I'm part of a screenwriting group, and every meeting, we had a new batch of people come in, right? So it was always like bringing people up to speed about what screenwriting is. And then it'd be like February, and then by the end of, middle of summer, like, yeah, we've had 50, 60, 70, people come through here, but we we have never gotten past like teaching the basis of screenwriting, right?

David Ash 49:48
Yeah, I hear you, man.

Dave Bullis 50:00
So, Dave, where can we find you out online?

David Ash 50:05
I think the best place to start is that twincitiesthefilm.com I've put most everything I'm on working on in terms of the film. I should say most everything from the film was on there. I haven't done a work study yet for the series I'm working on that's going to come at some point. If you want to go to the website for my second film, 2021 and it's 2021thefilm.com, if you want to see that film, we actually got distribution for that film, and it's on Amazon Prime. You know they can see that for free. If you have Amazon Prime, just go to 2021 put that in search engine for Amazon. It should take you to the film. We got distribution for twin cities as well. So that'll be on Amazon later this year, and hopefully a few other paper places besides Amazon. So hopefully that'll be out there. You know, by fall, I'm guessing, yeah, beyond that, you know, you know, if you want to shoot me email, it's [email protected] Happy to to, you know, tell you whatever, whatever I know. I'm happy to to send them along as well. So that'll get started. But again, if you go to twincitiesthefilm.com, I've got, probably most of my stuff is, on, on that page that websites. It's a pretty, pretty stock site at this point.

Dave Bullis 51:26
Cool, Dave, it's been so great having you on, man. And yeah, I look forward to checking out your your stuff. Man. Again, we have a very similar path. That's why I wanted to have you on. And again, best of luck to you, my friend, and I will talk to you very soon.

David Ash 51:40
Yeah, thanks so much for having me on. I really, really appreciate it. So thanks a lot.

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BPS 459: How Filmmakers Can Win in the Digital Marketing Age with David Feinman

February 19, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

On today’s episode, we explore the intersection of storytelling, entrepreneurship, and modern marketing with David Feinman, founder of Viral Idea Marketing and co-creator of the wildly successful Zombie Run. David’s journey is a powerful reminder that creativity doesn’t live in a vacuum—it thrives when paired with strategy, execution, and a deep understanding of human behavior. From launching viral experiential events to helping companies cut through digital noise, his career shows how filmmakers and creatives can build real businesses by mastering narrative in the online world.

David’s entrepreneurial instincts surfaced early. While still a teenager, he started his first business, eventually leading to Zombie Run—an immersive, zombie-themed obstacle race that toured over a dozen cities and attracted more than 35,000 participants in a single year. Rather than treating the event like a simple race, David approached it like a film production. The course was designed as a living movie set, complete with fog machines, helicopters, suspenseful pacing, and carefully timed reveals. Zombies didn’t appear immediately—just like in great cinema, tension was built before the chaos began.

That cinematic mindset became the foundation of his marketing philosophy. David understood that people don’t share advertisements—they share experiences. Zombie Run succeeded not because of traditional advertising, but because it gave participants something worth talking about. Each event produced shareable video content that spread organically across social platforms, long before Facebook video advertising became mainstream. Looking back, David admits that if he were launching today, he’d double down even harder on short-form social video, because attention is the true currency of the internet.

After Zombie Run, David founded Viral Idea Marketing, a company focused on helping brands tell stories that are designed to be shared. He challenges the outdated idea of the “commercial,” arguing that modern audiences want narratives, not pitches. Instead of 30-second ads, his team creates short films for the internet—content that follows the same emotional structure as movies and television. Whether working with Fortune 1000 companies or local businesses, the goal remains the same: create something people want to pass along.

One of David’s most important insights is his definition of “viral.” To him, viral doesn’t mean millions of views—it starts with one share. If a video is designed so that even 20 or 30 people feel compelled to share it, that’s a win. That mindset removes the pressure of chasing massive numbers and refocuses creators on quality, relatability, and emotional resonance. It’s a lesson filmmakers can apply directly to trailers, short films, and branded content alike.

David also speaks candidly about professionalism and attention to detail. In hiring creatives, he prioritizes cultural fit and preparedness as much as talent. Sending a reel when asked, doing basic research before meetings, and respecting the creative process are non-negotiables. The same principles apply to clients—those who understand that storytelling takes time and intention ultimately see better results.

At its core, David Feinman’s journey is about reframing how creatives think about opportunity. Filmmakers don’t have to choose between art and business. By applying cinematic storytelling to marketing, they can build sustainable careers while still doing creative work that matters. In a world overflowing with content, the stories that win are the ones crafted with purpose, empathy, and shareability in mind.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:23
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 0:49
My guest this week, because we're going to talk about his company, viral idea marketing, creating the Zombie Run and creating stuff like this media that gets shared, you know, creating all this stuff and cutting through the noise. So without further ado, let's get to the episode with guest David Fienman. Say, you call me Bullis already. We're friends already. Look at that.

David Feinman 1:35
Yeah. It's funny. We were talking two seconds ago. How you know people that know you call you Bullis and people who don't call you Dave. So I took the Bullis option.

Dave Bullis 1:40
Awesome, man. All my friends call me Bullis. And I've tried to get the Twitter handle at Bullis, but some guy has it, and he won't give it up, and he's never tweeted once. Can you believe that?

David Feinman 2:34
Did you try offering him like, is he for sale? Like, are you able to are you able to pay him off?

Dave Bullis 2:40
I offered him money. He turned it down, really, yeah. And I said to him, I said, Listen, his name's not even Bullis. His name is like, Al rosensky or something. And I said, and so I complained to Twitter, like, you know, like, of course, that's, that's my first that's my first thing. I'm gonna complain to Twitter. So I complained to Twitter, and they basically said, there's nothing they could do about it. And I said, How the hell does this, any of this work? Like, first off, his name's Ivan Bullis, it's al ruzinski. And secondly, I'm actually Bullis, and I actually tweet. And I actually, this is how, this is how neurotic I am, Dave. I actually got all my analytics together. And I said, Look at this, I am clearly like doing something for your platform, and they still wouldn't do anything for me.

David Feinman 3:27
Wow, maybe you just need to up, Annie, maybe, maybe, maybe you got all from $3 instead of one. You know,

Dave Bullis 3:34
Seriously, there has to be something I'm doing wrong. But I'm sorry enough about me and my my Twitter problems, but I wanted to talk about you, Dave, and just all the things you're doing with viral ideas, marketing, and all the cool stuff you're doing. So just to start off, you're a temple grad. I actually was a TA at Temple. Oh no, yeah, for one semester, then they kicked me out.

David Feinman 3:55
But we got all we got applause there, like, why did they kick you out?

Dave Bullis 4:00
No, no, I'm joking around.

David Feinman 4:00
See, I thought that was, like, a cool story that I was, you know, that could have been neat. But, yeah, unfortunately, unfortunately, you like, lasted, you know,

Dave Bullis 4:01
Yeah, yeah, seriously, I should have made up something on the spot. I should have been like, uh, well, uh, so, but you but that's pretty cool. Though you were, you actually graduated from Temple. So, you know, first I want to ask, you know, why temple? And also, you know, what did you actually major in a temple?

David Feinman 4:24
Yeah, so, why temple? So I actually did my first two years at Bucks County Community College. They had a program where you could go for two years at Bucks County Community College, two years at Temple. And I've always done an entrepreneur. So I started out at bucks and did that thing because I was, I was working on a company at the time, and then kind of went over to temple after that, that's where I started this current venture. So, so basically, I, I had, you know, I had a great time at Temple. And the reason I, the reason I went to temple, it's kind of a weird one, you know, I went down the tour the school, and I. And ate at one of the food trucks. And I really liked the food the food truck. I think I had a muffin or something weird like that, and I went to temple, literally, because I had a good meal at a food truck. Because I've never, I've never been, like, a big school person, so I'm like, All right, this is 45 minutes from where I grew up. Like they have good food, so I guess I'll go here. So that was kind of my, that was kind of my line of thinking,

Dave Bullis 5:23
Well, the school is huge, though. I mean, it's like the size of a small city basically, you know, and you go to temple, and then you go to some of the other colleges in the area. I mean, some of the other colleges in the area are, like a postage stamp compared,

David Feinman 5:37
Oh, my god, yeah, yeah, temple. I mean, and they're, they're growing too, which is amazing for, you know, any past grad to just have that, you know, it's something that's, you know, expanding,

Dave Bullis 5:49
Yeah, yeah. It's unbelievable. And their film department, which is always, which is, you know, I don't know if you've ever actually just gone through there and just seeing all the things that they got going on. It's kind of funny, because when I was actually ta ing there, I actually went through and they had a small black box theater, right? Okay, so this small black box theater was, that was their department, yeah, it was, like, it was literally bigger than in the entire TV studio I got which I was working at, because I actually, at the time, I worked at another school full time, and I'm sitting there going, my God, this black box theater is already bigger than, like, the entire TV studio. And this is one thing like, let's see what's on the opposite side, right? So it's just unbelievable. And, you know, just working with her, you know, film and TV department. But so when you actually, so you were lured in by the food I've had this and you had this muffin.

David Feinman 6:40
And unfortunately, it was a great school. Like, for is a great school to be lured in by, like, this wonderful muffin at this place. I the temple. I owe it to that one food truck. But, and if you know anything about temple, I don't know, like, who the listeners are. Temple is a, you know, one of the great schools for food trucks. So, I mean, right up and down, I don't remember, I don't know if you remember this bullet, but like, like, up and down the streets a temple is just all food trucks, and it's a great culture. But I studied entrepreneurship there. I mean, they've, like, one of the top programs in the country for that. So we actually recently, as an alumni, you can enter in their business plan competition. And we just entered their competition this year, and we were one of the, we were one of the winners of the competition, and actually won some, won some money and some resources from Temple for that which, which was a lot of fun.

Dave Bullis 7:28
Oh, that's, that's freaking huge, man, yeah. So, you know, just to go back for a second about the food truck, how lured you in. You know, it was actually funny, because when I was working at that other school, they had this big cookout, right, right? They were saying, Hey everybody, come on campus. This is our open house, you know, come on and try all this great stuff. I was right there, right? And his dad bites into this burger, right? And he goes, Well, I'm writing the check to Drexel right now. And he because, let me tell you, later on, by couple like and by later on, I mean, a couple minutes later, I tried one of the I tried a burger. Not bad, right? Yeah, it's it tasted like somebody stepped on it and then put it in the in the bun or something. And I said, What the hell happened here? This is like this. This is like, grade Z meat. So I'm sitting here going, this is how you're going to market your school to potential, like to students is by having like, low grade food. Like, Who the hell's gonna be impressed by this? And seriously, when hit that, Dad said that I'm like, Man, the food really does matter.

Dave Bullis 8:30
It makes a big difference. It makes a big difference.

Dave Bullis 8:32
Yeah, and it's because you think about, if you're a parent, right? You don't want your kid going and having like, some slop summer camp, especially the parents are paying for it. You want a proper meal? Yeah? Seriously, seriously. So, so it does make a lot of difference, but, but, yeah, I mean, it's so cool that, you know, again, Temple, again, we live so close, by the way, everybody. That's how, that's how Dave and I actually met. So it's so everyone, it's like this whole Philly centric we're talking about here, speaking of which, so Dave, where do you go to get a good cheesesteak in Philly?

David Feinman 9:06
Oh, that's a good question. So, you know, I was actually on a podcast, I think it was a week ago, or maybe this week, and they asked me which cheesesteak, you know, Patrick Geno. And I actually tell people to go get a pretzel from Philly, because a lot of people from Philly assume cheese steaks all steaks, all we got. But we have, we have the pretzel. And I think, I think the pretzel is the underrated, the underrated Philly item. I think the Philly pretzel is something that should be talked more about.

Dave Bullis 9:29
You know, maybe it's, I don't even notice it because I have so many pretzels from Philly. Yep, you know what I mean, like, it's something I don't even think about,

David Feinman 9:39
But, but if you go down south, it's all super pretzel. It's not, you know, it's the it's the other, like the other. This is not a video, but I'm doing the twist on Skype, and it's one of those. It's one of the twisters. So it's different, you know, it's different than a, than a Philly pretzel, which is the figure eight. I think it doesn't get much attention, but I'm not. I'm not as partial to cheesesteaks as I am to the pretzel

Dave Bullis 10:12
I see, I see. Because, you know, I always ask that the Philly centric people, because every time someone comes to Philly, like, where should I go? Patrick Genos, and my response is, Philly, people don't really go to Patrick Geno's unless it's like, at night at their sports game, then it's Yeah, yeah. Or if you're by the stage, go to Tony Luke's, but, but then again, I said, they ask during the day, where do you go? And I'm like, well, there's John's roast pork, which is awesome. There's gyms on South Street, which

David Feinman 10:41
is really great. Why had an old office up by there, right next to Jim's gyms? And what's the pizza place there? That the big slices? Lorenzo's?

Dave Bullis 10:53
Oh, Lorenzo's, yeah, for some reason I was about to say somebody else's pizza place I met. There's a guy who actually in Philly, he started a pizza place, and he actually charges everyone, like, $1 a slice.

David Feinman 11:05
Oh, it's Roses Pizza, Guy Mason, yeah, yeah,

Dave Bullis 11:10
Yeah, that's awesome, by the way, everyone This podcast is gonna be more than just about food.

David Feinman 11:14
I'm sorry. Like, oh, we shifted your whole podcast. I know this is, like, the, like, the Video Marketing podcast. Maybe this will be a good transition. But, you know, we spent the first like, we're foodies first, and then we're video guys.

Dave Bullis 11:25
Yes, everyone's like, What the hell am I listening to? Just two guys

David Feinman 11:29
Freaking cheese steaks and pretzels and like, where to get pizza and Philly, which I guess we're experts on that now, you know? Yeah, serious, all sides. Like, whole side thing, whole size being gone.

Dave Bullis 11:41
So if people are listening, ever do travel into Philly? They know where to go now about where to get pizza and cheesesteaks and pretzels and everything else. So you graduated from Temple, and you actually integrate. And you graduated with a was starting entrepreneurship. So what was your first steps outside of college? Was it actually trying to start your own business, or actually starting your own business.

David Feinman 12:06
Yeah. So it's actually interesting. I'll back up a little bit. So while I was in while I was in college, and while I was in high school, actually, I started my first business at 16, and eventually went on to start there's a smaller business, but went on to start a company called the Zombie Run. So we went on tour all around the country. About 16 cities. Grew the whole thing using video marketing, social media, and kind of eventually progressed into doing, you know, video marketing consulting while I was in college, and that's kind of where the seeds of my company now started viral ideas. So basically, we would be consulted with companies to teach them how to use social media and video and stuff like that. And I didn't think I was going to start a company right out of school. I was actually interviewing with Google. I was, like, third round interview with Google. I an offer on the table from like, one of my professors who, like, wanted, wanted me to work from them. And I just said, I love doing this. I love, like, consulting with people, doing videos. And I was getting more and more clients. So just said, All right, you know, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna start another one. Like, I guess I'm like, I guess my true identity is, I'm an entrepreneur. I've done it from the time I was 16. I did it while I was in college. So why stop now? Let's do another one and have some fun with it.

Dave Bullis 13:12
So I have to ask, what was it like? You know, actually, even getting an interview with Google, because I hear it's incredibly difficult to even get an interview one and then two, to even get past the first rounds, incredibly difficult.

David Feinman 13:25
So one of my friends actually referred me, which was, which is a good way in the door. They asked me a question about, I'll never forget this. So they asked ridiculous Google questions. And the question that I had was, how, let's say you're a traffic cone manufacturer in California, how would you determine the demand for traffic comes in California? And I came up with an answer. I don't know. You know, I'm not working at Google right now. I have a phenomenal company that I love very much. Well, I don't I think my answer that question might have had a slight impact on the reason why I didn't get hike. So what was your answer? I think I answered something like, I would, I would, like, survey like I would survey the construction and in like, a certain sample size of of a couple roads, and then extrapolate that out across the square footage, and use the number of cones per, you know, mile or whatever. I don't think, I don't think like that, but I thought, I thought it was like a logical answer.

Dave Bullis 14:22
Well, is there ever really a right answer to those questions? I don't think so. I mean, I always wondered. I'm excited. A friend of mine who went into an interview with Google or Facebook, and he actually did, they made him code, and they said you can't have a computer. Just use a whiteboard. You have to write it out. And he was like, Well, what? Why am I doing this? And, and finally, he got it. After the interview was over, right? He got it. Finally understood. He goes, Well, they want to take away all your tools to see what you can do when you don't have all your strong points. They want to see, do you? Do you sort of fall apart? Yeah. How do you handle this? I kind of. Get it at the same time. I'm kind of, like, these open ended questions, you know, right? Yeah, you're kind of wondering, like, is there really, if I say, if I say anything? So go back to that traffic cone question, if I say something, like, Well, I wouldn't do it at all. I would just basically, you know, I'd go sell something else or whatever. I don't know is that even right? You know, it did so, so do you use questions like that? If so, if you're hiring for viral idea marketing, David, do you hire? Do you ask those type of questions? Do you say, like, how many, you know, how many traffic cones you have to sell in an hour, whatever?

David Feinman 15:34
So, so, no, but, but I'll tell you what we do that it is interesting. If you want me to share absolutely so what we do is, I mean, the first thing, obviously, with video guys, you look at their work, you know, the work is either good by our standards or not good by our standards. And then we hire, really based on cultural fit. After that, everything after, whether we everything after, the question is, is this work good enough and up to our standards, is, will you fit in here? And do you fit with our culture? Are the questions we try to get to. And you know, we found that we've been able to create a great company culture. You know, now at 11 people, because we've asked questions that aren't necessarily, how many traffic cones? How many traffic cones can you fit on the state, whatever? And Google, I mean, has a great reputation for having a great culture, but, you know, something we're trying to create is just a lot of togetherness, and, you know, stuff like that. So, you know, I think, I think it helps with with creativity, to have a good culture. So, yeah,

Dave Bullis 16:30
Yeah, absolutely, you got to find that team that sort of works together, and that's what I talk a lot about here on the podcast. And as it relates to, you know, film and even, you know, and marketing, obviously, and production. Because if you're going to be spending, you know, an ordered amount of time with people, you know, on a daily basis, on a weekly basis, and you know, when tempers flare, you want to make sure that everybody is on the same page, and not just going to freak out and start clashing. Because, you know, something I found out is you can really tell a lot about a company, not in times of, like, when everything's going good, but when it when things are going bad.

David Feinman 17:07
Yeah, I think what, I think, what's interesting too, is there's, you know, there's wartime generals and there's, like, peacetime generals, right? So, like, you know, this is with this from, like, hard thing, about hard things, about hard things. It's a book about running a company, basically like a wartime general is, you know, the CEOs and the leaders operating to be eliminate and when the when, when stuff's really bad, or even, like, when companies go through a rough patch, those are the leaders that could pull a company through, or pull, you know, pull a group of people through. And there's the peacetime generals that are kind of like a lot of I think what you see now is a lot of companies that are, you know, is a great economic time right now, it's a lot of companies that are doing incredibly well, just because it's a great economic time. And when that downfall happens, it'll be interesting to see, kind of, who makes it who makes it out alive. And I think it'll be a lot of the wartime generals that do that.

Dave Bullis 17:59
Yeah, that's very true. A lot of, a lot of the guys who maybe can make the hard decisions, you know, the wartime generals, the people that you know and the peacetime generals, maybe they can. They can, well, you know, just to sort of try to put what I'm trying to say into into another, another sentence I'm trying to I'm kind of running myself into a corner here, but it basically, if you know, everybody can run a company when it's doing well, you know what I mean, everything's going great. You know, you could put anybody in there and then, but, but it's really when times go bad and you're like, Well, what is my leaders made of? What are my managers made of? What have my idea people made of? And, you know, sometimes you see that and a bad and a bad day, you know what I mean, it doesn't have and when I say bad, you know, I don't mean just, you know, everything's going to crap, like the economy's going down, or something else. I mean, just in general, like a bad day, like, I mean, you've been there, Dave, you walk in, your phones don't work, your computer's crashed, you got a flat tire on the way to work, and you're like, What the hell is going to go wrong? Now, you know what I mean? It's one of those things where, well, you could say, Well, nothing's getting done today. Or you could try to just make something out of this bad day. You know what I mean?

David Feinman 19:08
Yeah, exactly. And I think too many people default to, oh, it's bad. I'm not going to do anything. I'm gonna lay on the sofa, yeah? So not, not to get kind of inspirational. But I think, I think, you know, half of a bad day is just a mindset, you know. You know, if you're, if you're having a bad day, the best way to get out of it is good, do something good.

Dave Bullis 19:30
Yeah, yeah. None of it very true, very true. So, you know, just to sort of talk about, again, about your company and some of the things you've done when we talk about Zombie Run. I actually saw the Zombie Run. And I was like, I gotta, we gotta talk about this. You know, with zombies have exploded over the past couple of years. You know, they've ebbed and flowed, you know, because with Romero's original trilogy of zombies, and then you have the remake of Dawn of the Dead, you have the walking dead on TV. Now you have all the, you know, when you first launched this idea. Was it met with resistance from from different people, or was it the complete opposite, and where you had, you know, maybe even investors or producers or somebody else going, Holy crap, Dave, this is amazing. How come no one's done this before?

David Feinman 20:23
We were met with a lot of people that were really fans the brand. So, so when you think about the, when you think about the zombie market, right? Let's, let's break it down. What kind of we'll kind of do this in like, a non zombie way. There's, there's a lot of hardcore zombie fans that watch every zombie movie. They like to, you know, go to the comic cons. They like to do all this stuff, but they don't have necessarily interest in running. But they they watch these zombie experience, they watch The Walking Dead, they watch these different, you know, post apocalyptic movies. And they kind of want to have that experience, so that the success of the zombie room was that spirit experience in real life. So we actually designed the set of the zombie. I call it the set, but the course of the Zombie Run like a Hollywood set. So we actually sat down and and we had the team watch for like, two, three days. We had them watch, you know, 1520, zombie movies. And we basically pulled out all the archetypal elements of a Hollywood zombie movie, and we incorporated them into the race. So everything from like the helicopter overhead to the fog and the smoke machines and the zombies never really come out in a zombie movie until like 20 minutes into the movie. So you wouldn't see the zombies until the to the end of the first half mile, just to build suspense.

Dave Bullis 21:38
And also it kind of works well too, because I'm sure you attract a lot of people who never actually worked out before that day. So they're like, all right, I know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna get in there, I'm gonna get a full head of steam, and I'm just gonna spray that finish line. And I'm sure, by like, I don't know, maybe, like, five minutes in, they're just like, Oh, God, what did I do to myself?

David Feinman 22:01
Yeah, there was definitely a lot of non athletes participating. A lot of people that like show up smoking, like it was, it was, it was an interesting crowd. And we loved every minute of it, you know, it was a good, it was a good bunch of people. So when they finally got to the zombies, who were so tired, they were so tired, they were just like, take my life, you know, it's over. You guys win this round.

Dave Bullis 22:23
Yeah. So So again, with all the zombie movies that you analyze, like, what were some of the better zombie movies that you remember analyzing?

David Feinman 22:33
My personal two favorite were, I Am Legend, and Shawn of the Dead, Shawn of the Dead, because it was well produced, but it was still cheesy and funny at the same time. And I Am Legend, because it's very rare that you see a movie like that tells so much story without sound. And for the first for the first bit of movie, there's almost like no sound, it's like one character and like his dog, or like a good bit of the movie until he meets that girl. So I just, I've and I can't even see that with, with our work at viral ideas, is some of our best work, is the work that we're able to do that stands alone without any sound, you know, and just uses the visuals so that those, those were kind of my, my two favorites for what it's worth.

Dave Bullis 23:23
Yeah, yeah. Two great movies. By the way, Shaun of the Dead is freaking awesome. When it came out, I was held by held by my thumbs not to watch it, because I was like, I don't want to see a zombie movie that makes fun of zombie movies. And I saw, and I was like, Oh, crap, this is awesome. Why did i Why did I not want to watch this?

David Feinman 23:39
It's, it's like, ironic. The whole thing's like, ironic, yeah,

Dave Bullis 23:44
And it's funny too, because you think about it, and if it really did happen to somebody, like a zombie outbreak happened, right? You would go to like, some place that you knew was safe. And his idea was literally a pub, you know, that was basically what he called a fortress with a rifle over the bar. And that's what that was his idea of, like, the Mecca, or the sort of, like, ultimate goal of safety. Was this right here. That's where I would be, just in a bar, over the cut I read. And also, I love how this idea of how it worked too, because it worked, because it's how most people are. You know, it's gonna work out. We're just gonna go there all drink to safety, and then, you know, and things are just gonna kind of work out, you know, yeah. So when you take the Zombie Run and you started to, actually, what year was that, by the way that you work with the Zombie Run?

David Feinman 24:38
So, so we started that in 2012 and had it till 2013 so basically, we had about about 35,000 people do it around the country in a year.

Dave Bullis 24:48
So, so when you were doing that, YouTube was, you know, obviously YouTube, at that point, Facebook Live, wasn't there yet. So if you did it differently now. In terms of just marketing, you know, what would you have done? What would you do differently if you did it now? Because, I mean, things have changed so much in terms of just social media, marketing and video in general,

David Feinman 25:11
I would have put, we put for the time. We put a lot of, you know, what was a lot of money into, into social video. I would have, I would have, I would have done more, more clips. You know, we did a lot of, basically, would make, like a little zombie movie after every, after every event. I would have done more. I would have done more, just more video. You know, we invested kind of all over the place, a little bit because we, because we still did, we did, still did some radio buys, but most of the revenue and traffic was just driven through Facebook ads. So kind of note, kind of hindsight, is 2020, I wish I just poured more into social because it just works so well.

Dave Bullis 25:50
And, you know, Facebook ads, I hear a lot of my friends actually use Facebook ads and marketing and stuff like that. And again, it goes back to video and and finding out, you know, getting all those hits off of Facebook. By the way, just as a side note, a friend of mine has a movie trailer up right now for the movie called The hatred, okay? And, and it is over 10 million views. Amazing, right? Yeah. And it's, it's, it's just people are sharing it, left, right and center. And I actually saw the numbers, and I was like, Holy crap, you guys want over 10 million freaking views, and the movie doesn't come out until September. So, like, just seeing that, that type of response, of those numbers, you I mean, you know, now people got to look at that and go, Jesus, Facebook going to take over YouTube in terms of getting trailers out there?

David Feinman 26:35
Yeah. I mean, it's not just trailers like I think, I think what's interesting, and a lot of this audience is very moving. So we work with, we work with a couple of local businesses. And, you know, one in particular, you think, you know, geez, like, could I ever make a video that would, you know, pop a little bit on Facebook for for a dental practice, and we work with, we work with a dental practice, and we, you know, with just a couple bucks on Facebook and a well produced video, we were able to, you know, I think we're pushing, you know, 20, 30,000 views for, like, a local dentist now. So it's, I think it's, I think the power of it is just in, in the targeting, and the ability to kind of put the right content in front of the right people, you know, at the right time.

Dave Bullis 27:19
Yeah, that targeted marketing, you know, and to your example about a local family dentist, you know, I'm sure people in the area who could actually go to that dentist, it obviously makes more sense, because, like, if you do a radio broadcast or try to buy an ad on TV, people get those and they're not in the area, you know, you're they can't. They're not going to travel, you know, 100 miles to go see Dr Tom or whatever. But if it's right down the street or in the neighborhood or whatever, they're more susceptible to, susceptible to actually go and say, Hey, wait, that's commercials right in the neighborhood. And it's all that targeted marketing, which is what Facebook does so well,

David Feinman 27:53
We had, I mean, let's, let's say you're gonna do a TV buy, or you're gonna, you're gonna put something in the newspaper. You know, we're able to reach that 2020, 30,000 people with, you know, just a fraction of the dollars, and you're hitting them somewhere that they're not used to being hit with something like this. So I So, I think the power of it, and the reason your friend got 10 million views is because people, people aren't used to seeing these movie trailers on Facebook. It's become a, I've seen a lot more that happening, you know, in the Facebook environment, and it's just, it's just blowing up.

Dave Bullis 28:24
So, you know, and we briefly touched on your business, final ideas, marketing. And, you know, obviously it's, it's, you know, you're about an hour away from me, and, you know, just seeing like, you know, these marketing companies like, like yourselves, and it's really cool, because I think, you know, it's, it opens up a lot of possibilities, you know, not just for, you know, the consumer, but also for businesses. Because now a lot of these small businesses do need commercials, and they don't know where to go to, you know what I mean?

David Feinman 28:49
And what's interesting is, we don't even consider them, you know, we don't like the word commercial, per se, because commercial us is a 32nd spot. But with Facebook and YouTube, people really want to see a story, and like, I don't know, I'll be curious to hear your opinion, too. But you know, they want to see the same structural archetype as a movie or a television show, because that's what's entertaining. You know, when you watch a movie or you watch TV shows, the same format, you know, and kind of, as filmmakers, we know that, we know that, end of it. But as you know, as marketers, you don't really, you don't really think about it. You don't really think, Oh, I'm just going to do my commercial. I'm gonna do my pitch. But if you do, if you do a, basically a three to four minute movie versus doing a 32nd commercial, I feel like the impact is, you know, we've seen it with our clients, just so much, so much more.

Dave Bullis 29:34
Yeah, there is a lot of storytelling involved. And I concur, because that is the what people want to see on social to, even when they're telling a joke or something, you know, it's they actually want to see something relatable, or they want to see, you know, they want to see be, you know, be told something I don't think, I think, you know, people are susceptible now to being marketed to, of course, or being sold to. So if you're actually not in trying to just say, how could I sell this? But how could I actually tell a story with this? I think it's a little more more powerful. You know what I mean?

David Feinman 30:17
Yes. Oh yeah. 100%

Dave Bullis 30:20
So let me, you know, let me ask you this. When people pitch, you know, or maybe even go to you and say, Hey, Dave, I have a local business. We know, what could we do? And I have to ask this question, because it's in the name of your business, going viral. I imagine a lot of people have an idea of what viral is. You know what I mean. I'm sure they probably go, Hey, listen, I want to, you know, I want to get shared on the local news network or whatever. I want to get shared here. And if people come to you and say they want to go viral, off the bat, do you just immediately, like, talk them off that ledge. Like, don't even worry about that.

David Feinman 30:53
So viral, viral to us, is probably not, not what you think. You know, people think viral. They think millions of views, news, appearances, all that, but it starts with the seed, and that seed is sharing. So the reason something goes viral and the reason something has a sticky potential is because someone shares it. So when we design videos, and, you know, when we design stuff, you know, movies and televisions are designed to be shared, there's those corporate videos should be any different. So when people are marketing a particular video, they should design it to be shared by someone else. So when you think, okay, let's say I can make a video and I can get as a local business, I can get 35 people to share it to us. That's a win, because you now have 35 people that are willing to share your content with their friends, versus if you did a commercial, who's going to share a commercial?

Dave Bullis 31:44
Yeah, I concur. I remember there was a commercial done a few years back, and it looked, it looked like they just basically, the morning of, decided to make this commercial. They just sort of threw everything together. And I was like, what? I don't know, who this is even appealing to, you know, and it was for this company right down the street, and I actually had some friends that were actually in it. And I'm like, I don't get it. I just don't get it. Was for, it was for a local car a car dealership. And usually, you know, they're kind of, they're kind of out there anyway. But this one was especially, like, so poorly done. I mean, maybe we'll try to be ironic. I don't know, I still don't get it, but, but it's stuff like that. Like, no, I could never imagine anyone sharing a commercial like that, right? So when we talk about, you know, things being sticky, you know, like the ideas actually stick, you know, the ideas that actually hang around, and maybe even things that people remember, you know. So if somebody does come to you, do you have like, do you have like, a, maybe even a niche or so that you try to stick to? Or is it like you want to try to you? Can you have different ideas for various companies? Like you mentioned a dentist, I mentioned a car company. So if somebody comes to you and says, Hey, Dave, I have an idea, or I'm sorry, I have a business, it's a doggy daycare, or I have a business. It's, we sell, you know, a big ones, restaurants, I imagine now I'm just talking out loud and just sort of, you know, thinking about loud restaurants are probably big, so I imagine telling the story about their restaurant is probably very important, so that way people will share it on social, right?

David Feinman 33:18
Yeah, I think it's for for us, it's, it's narrative storytelling for the internet. So, you know, we work with everything from Fortune 1000 down to local realtors, but kind of what we've seen works well. And when clients, you know, okay, because it is, it is something a little different, you know, doing, doing something that's taking a little bit more of a quote, unquote risk. So when I say risk, you know, it's something that's a little out of the box. So, for example, we recently just did one for a staffing company. It was, it was called five reasons why. It was about five reasons why you won't get hired. And went through funny things on a resume. So, so things like, things like that, and concepts like that are going to be, what? What are sticky versus something that you know has just been done over and over and over again?

Dave Bullis 34:07
What are those five things that you stay away from?

David Feinman 34:10
Well, you all good. I You don't. You don't want to curse off with the guy when you go in. You know, you don't want to. And I've only ever hired people so I, you know, I don't. I actually had a couple jobs when I was when I was younger, but for the most part, since, since senior year of college, I've only ever worked for myself.

Dave Bullis 34:28
But does anybody really go into a job? And I couldn't imagine being a in a job interview and cursing at the person. I couldn't just imagine that like, you know, I couldn't, I mean, does it?

David Feinman 34:41
I mean, the worst, the worst that, the worst that you'll get for job interviews that, from what I've seen, is like, people that'll just kind of, kind of ask you, like, ask you, quite like, what company is this? You know, like, I'm just, like, you just, you just Google it for five minutes before you come in for the interview. I. Stuff like that. But I don't want to get fired up around that topic, because we already, we already went on a tangent about food,

Dave Bullis 35:07
By the way. What company do you is that? Dave viral ideas marketing. What do you guys actually do there? By the way? No, no, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I don't want to, I know, stay we sell staplers, staplers of all colors. But no, everyone has a hot button issue, man. And you know, whenever you're around a topic that you're passionate about, and then somebody comes in and just, kind of just tries to blow you off, or tries to, like, sneak past the goalie, so to speak, and you're like, What the hell are you doing? You know what? I mean, like, what are you trying to do? It's like, I mean, I see it in film sometime too, where they're like, out to I'll give you an example, Dave. I actually had a guy who sent me an email one time told me how much he loved the podcast, how much he loved this and that, how much blah, blah, blah, blah. So he wanted to talk to me, so I ended up just, you know, doing a little Skype interview, like we're doing now. Yeah, and he's asked me all these questions, like, so what? How many episodes do you have, this, that, and the other thing? And I go, if you love the podcast so much and you're so into this, wouldn't you know what episode I announced the episode number before we get into every episode. I always say this is episode 171, with guests. And I mean, for God's sakes, and it says it right on there too. I mean, five minutes, five seconds, even, he could have just found out all these answers,

David Feinman 36:25
Or at least, at least do a little bit of your homework before you get on.

Dave Bullis 36:30
So does that happen a lot though, Dave, do people actually just try to say things like, you know, hey, Dave, I want to meet you for coffee, and I want to, I just want to, you know, let me buy you a coffee, I'll pick your brain for five minutes or or whatever, about marketing or whatever, and then you end up just, you know, you meet for coffee and they're trying to pitch you a business or something like that. Does that happen a lot?

David Feinman 36:50
No, that doesn't happen to me that much. And I'm happy, you know, I'm so early in my career, I'm happy to take any meeting with anyone that wants to talk to me. You know, it's that's not a big deal. I mean, especially if it's just a phone call, kind of with the interview. But we're hiring right now for we have two more, two summer interns that were two fall interns, rather that we're hiring. And my big, my biggest pet peeve, and hopefully some of them are listening to this while they're applying. But, you know, it says very clearly in the thing, you know, give us your reel, and then you'll go in, then you'll look at the resume, and you'll look through the cover letter, and there's no real so, you know that's like, one of like, that's the only requirement we have for summer video or fall video interns, is like, send us your reel, and they won't send us their reel. So, like, it's just like, usually those people, when you ask them for their reel and they give it to you, usually there's, there's something else, whether just not detail oriented, or there's something that you see, it's more than just, you know, reading instruct, basic instructions. There's more to it.

Dave Bullis 37:48
Yeah. And this should be a good barometer, too. If they come into the interview or whatever, and they say, Hey, I heard your podcast interview on here, or I heard your podcast interview there, that should be a good interview. That should be a good indicator, because then, you know, hey, look, they at least cared enough to to listen to a podcast interview while they drove somewhere, or they were out walking their dog or whatever. You know, what I mean, they sort of, they cared enough to make that first step

David Feinman 38:12
Exactly like, like, even, even for the setup, you know, like, our conversation here was, it was interesting, like, Carly told me what we're doing this. So I listened to, you know, one at the gym. And, like, what, you know, half of one, you know, it's like, I listen to it every week. But like, at least, like, at least you put, you put some time, and you listen to a couple. And just to kind of get an idea of what the conversation is going to be like,

Dave Bullis 38:36
Yeah, I agree 100% and, you know, just to go back to that guy I was talking about when I was like, you have a listen to what episode I was like, maybe. And honestly, this is where I at least respected him. He was like, Well, you talk to a lot of really cool people. And he's like, You look like you have a deep network. And I'm like, well, thank you, I do, and it's not for you. Yeah, yeah. Seriously. I'm like, What the hell is this, man? It's like, and now, now we're gonna, we're kind of getting on my pet peeve this is like, people, people want me to, like, produce their projects. And I get that a lot. I mean, I get that a ton. That's probably the number one question I get emails. I'm just kind of, I just don't even answer them anymore. And it's just like, I don't know if they think that I just sit around, I have nothing to do other than, like, this podcast and produce a film. The last thing I tried to produce was with a friend of mine, and it went nowhere. And I swore, I was like, I'm never producing another person's project again. Only my stuff, nobody else's stuff. It's just, it's just too much of a hassle. It because you have meetings and stuff like that. You know, you have to, you have to pitch VCs. You have to pitch you have to get private equity. You have to get a big place, yeah, yeah. You have to get, you know, lawyers are involved. Why? Because they're drawing up contracts. You're drawing ppms up, you know, and all these things all matter. And they're just looking at me, like, well, well,

David Feinman 39:52
Just to produce it. Just produce it. You know, it's interesting client. Clients are like, clients are a little bit like that too. You know before we know, before we work with them, they're like, hey, you know what? Why does it take, you know? Why does it take this long to produce a video? And we'll, you know, I want it tomorrow. And no, we'll be like, well, it's not like buying, you know, Tylenol and Rite Aid, you know, we get, we have to, like, come up with your concepts. We have to do pre planning. If you have actors, you have to put out a casting call. You have to, you know, make sure the people that are acting for you are representing your brand. And then you're like, Well, why don't you just pick an actor? Well, you know, you have a brand that you built for years. You want, you know, you know, some actor that just has no experience to just be your representative for your brand. Like, okay, I can. So then eventually, kind of, once they see the process, it's kind of like, then, then they're, then they're happy to kind of allow that timeframe to happen.

Dave Bullis 40:54
Yeah, because, yeah, because that commercial, I'm sorry, not commercial. Sorry that, you know, but that will be, you know that that's, that's all that is, you know, represented the brand. Again, like you said, with actors, you know, you want to make sure there's, there's a saying in business to hire slow, fire, fast and, and that's what you got to do. You know, you got to hire these, these, these actors and crew and everybody slow and that defer. And, you know, you can't be afraid to let them go to if it's not, if it's just not working out,

David Feinman 41:21
Of course,

Dave Bullis 41:24
But you know, as we go back to making commercials, I have to ask a question to Dave, have you ever had and this has happened to me, and I want to know if it's happened to you, have you ever had anybody say to you, Well, why would I hire you to do videography or to make this marketing component, my daughter's got an iPhone and she spends all day on Facebook. I could hire her to do it at a fraction of the price, and that's actually happened to me before somebody I was going to do videography for this, for this guy to just cover all these meetings and this, that and the other thing. And he goes, but my daughter is on Facebook. My daughter's got a camera. My daughter's in her iPhone. And I said, Your daughter doesn't do B to B sales or B to C sales. She doesn't know how to edit anything, I guarantee you that. And I mean, I was just wondering, has that anything like that ever happened to you?

David Feinman 42:13
Oh, yeah. Well, I think a lot of people say that when they don't see the value of it. I have, I have a very strong, like, you know, sales privilege. I do most of the sales for viral. And, you know, I've seen that a couple of times, and my response is, all right, go, go, have your daughter do it. Call me in two months, you know. And then they chuckle, or whatever, and they're like, all right, whatever. You know that because, because, I think a lot of times they don't get it. They think that, you know, I'm producing something for the television, you know, if you know, and that's something that requires crews and everything. But if you're producing something for social, you could just, you know, throw it together really quickly. And it's not like that. There's a lot of psychology that goes into producing something like this that's more than just, you know, taking a picture or throwing up a quick selfie video.

Dave Bullis 42:58
Yeah, absolutely. And when you say, like, Hey, you have your you know, you'll be calling me in two months. You know that actually happened. But this guy, the guy was talking about his son, actually called me to ask me how to use these different things, because they actually tried to make a video, and they were actually saying, hey, like, Could you help me out here? And I was like, No. I was like, tell you, I actually helped him out one time, really, because a quick question. It was a quick question. It was a quick question about how to edit something in and I think premiere, they bought the 30 day trial and I and yeah. And later on, he asked me something else. I'm like, Look, tell your dad, this is your guys are in over your head, and tell him to write me a check. And then we'll sit down and we'll go over all this stuff. And his dad ended up calling me up. And we ended up actually, him, him actually paying me to do this, and we pulled it out of a nosedive, but, but it's, you know, again, stuff like that, you know, it's nowadays people look at it and they go, Oh, I can do that because I have an iPad, I have an iPhone or whatever, but, but really, there's, there's so much more to it than just having, you know, a ready, available camera.

David Feinman 43:59
And I think kind of one thing you know, from someone who owns, someone who owns a company, we've done probably over 300 videos for various companies, and I think one of the biggest things we've we've learned from it, is the level of detail that we're able to go into in a lot of these videos that are that you almost don't notice, but you notice if they're not there. It's kind of like the biggest thing that people kind of say to us, though, I I see that detail, but it's part, just part of it. You know what I mean that you don't get when you're just doing something that's amateur, you know, it's something that, something might as simple as, like, a prop there, that that should be there, just because it's like, that's a natural environment. People, some people don't, don't think to set something like that up, or the lighting and the sound and all, you know, everything that goes into it, you know, to make it as real as possible, or to make it, you know, in the interpretation that you want it. You know, I think when people do it from an amateur perspective, they're not looking at all these things that make a big impact. And how you're marketing,

Dave Bullis 45:02
Yeah, and somebody once told me, If you want to know, that the big difference between the amateur and the professional, the amateur locks the camera down and it never moves right. It's always just in that one static position, like we're watching a silent movie, and it's like, you could see what they, they they're trying to do, and they're just like, look, well, you know, they don't use terms like shots or pans or pans, or whatever, they just go, Look, we're just gonna, we're gonna film this, we're gonna get this, and then we're gonna move on, you know, and we're gonna put this all together. And then when they start putting it together, like, Oh, this is why, this is why we should.

David Feinman 45:30
It's funny, you say that about the, about the static shots, we actually, we actually, I think only own two tripods. The rest is sliders, awesome. So it's, I mean, it's all, it's all, you know, sliders, or, you know, Ronan, whatever you know stuff to keep the shots moving.

Dave Bullis 45:45
Yeah. And I think that's key too, because not only is it, is it awesome for viral, but again, you want people to share this. You want people to say, Hey, I had a friend who made a drone video, and people were like sharing it, left, right and center. And it's just that, you know, those ideas that are, that are shareable. And, you know, again, it's always that cool content. Everyone wants to post the next cool thing, right?

David Feinman 46:06
Of course, always, always and forever.

Dave Bullis 46:10
So, you know, Dave, you know, we've been talking for about, you know, 45 minutes now. So, you know, just to sort of put a period there this whole conversation, is there anything we need to talk about that you wanted to talk about now and then we get a chance to or do you have anything, any sort of final thoughts you wanted to say?

David Feinman 46:26
No, no, I guess, kind of like the biggest message that I always like to get across is, you know, I think, I think a lot of times film makers and creatives come up with these amazing ideas for for films and for short films. And I think, I think a lot more could be doing work with corporations if they applied that same mindset to companies that they apply to making a film. And it works really well. We've seen it work really well with companies. And it's just a matter of, you know, the film, a filmmaker's willingness to to, kind of, you know, maybe bend a little bit to the corporations and a, you know, and a company's willingness to just take a little bit of a risk, to do something a little bit different, that might be able to get the word across,

Dave Bullis 47:02
Yeah, it's, um, it's a very interesting time, you know, it's very interesting time for creatives to, it's just being able to, you know, like, like this. You know, the barriers to podcasting have have gone down, but the good podcasts have stayed around, you know what I mean. And I've managed to sort of sneak in there too when no one was looking, but, but the other but the good podcast, you know, like Mark Marris, WTF, the Nerdist and stuff like that. You know, every week they're producing it, and you can hear it. You can hear the difference between a good, good podcast and a blog podcast about the mics and the editing and everything else. You know you can tell when you're listening to an actual podcast that somebody cared about making exactly the same, exact same with video exactly. So Dave, we will find you out online.

David Feinman 47:54
So check out the website, viralideamarketing.com, or email if you, if you can, feel free to reach out to me. I can give you the best pretzel advice in the world, or video or business, whatever it's. [email protected], you know, feel free to, you know, I'm very, I'm a very helpful person. I love to always get back so does anything can help anyone with or if anyone wants to, you know, talk about a project or anything. I'm, you know, happy to, you know, happy to extend some time to you.

Dave Bullis 48:23
I hope the professors at Temple, like, you know, utilize you. And I mean that in a good way. I hope they are actually saying, like, hey, look, we have an alumni here. He's out there kicking ass and taking names, you know, and he I hope that they're doing that, I mean, you know, in a very positive way.

David Feinman 48:39
Yeah, I was, I was lucky. I love really great professors, and some of them, actually, I've been really honored to, like, come back and, you know, present a few times to, you know, various studies. And I actually very happy, and, you know, honored to be able to do it, you know, just to give back to the alma mater like that.

Dave Bullis 48:58
And that's good too, because, you know, again, Temple blown away by the school, huge, huge school. If you ever been a temple, by the way, for ever listening to this on like, the West Coast or in other countries, because I'm very popular in Canada, really.

David Feinman 49:12
You know what's great about Canada is, you know, Nathan for you. You ever watch that show? No, I haven't. So it's just this guy who does these, like crazy marketing game. I'm sure there's a lot of people that are listening that are listening that actually seen it. He's coming back in September. I just recently saw, like, right before we hopped on, I saw an announcement about him. I'm like, Really, you would actually love the show, one of the funny, like, one of the funniest shows I've ever watched, just these ridiculous marketing campaigns. But he's from Canada, so you're popular in Canada, maybe a little bit more so the Nathan for you,

Dave Bullis 49:44
Yeah, just a tad bit to tap it. And then then there's Justin Trudeau from the Canadian Prime Minister, but, but, yeah,

David Feinman 49:51
He's third on the list. Exactly. He's the Bullis first. Nathan for you, second, and then the Prime Minister, third.

Dave Bullis 50:08
Yeah, so I can't go, I can't walk down the streets of British Columbia without being just mobbed by by people. So, so, so you know, it just when I look at analytics, too. I know you're a big analytics guy too, Dave, I sometimes see I'm like, why is somebody from Saudi Arabia playing this podcast? Why is somebody from, you know? I mean, I just see it and all over the world. So one of my badges of honor is I have all 50 states. I have all six continents, because we're not going to count Antarctica. No one's no one's there, except for maybe Kurt Russell in the thing.

David Feinman 50:41
It's all right, after don't write off Antarctica, you know, maybe this one is the first one, you know, yeah, maybe. Well, I mean, we could be a big hit in Antarctica. Never know.

Dave Bullis 50:52
We just, it would just be unbelievable. Because I actually was trying to figure out if there's even a way. And I'm like, Well, you know, it's kind of like, if somebody is on like, one of those stations and plays it that counts. That would be it. I was like, please, you know, turn on just one listen.

David Feinman 51:06
You can listen for three minutes and then hang up. We're still talking about cheese sticks. Then.

Dave Bullis 51:13
So, yeah. And so I've hit all six continents, and now I'm slowly working to have at least one download in every country, if I could get one. In every country, there's only a few left, by the way, which is funny enough, a few left. Yeah, it's all this started, you know, and that's why I want to talk to you Dave, you know, just got, you know, doing all this media work. I think media is so important now. And I think small businesses to the social the media part, you know, just being on Facebook, Twitter and finding their niche. You know, if you're, and I always go back to a restaurant, if you're a restaurant, you know, I always say, Facebook, Instagram, right, right off the bat, Facebook, Instagram, what's crazy.

David Feinman 51:49
And I know we're, I know we're kind of running up on time, but we were working with a restaurant, and they put out 20 bucks in Facebook ads, you know, to the people that work in local businesses surrounding them. They do sandwiches, something, something like that, lying out the door 20 bucks. I mean, I imagine those customers. Imagine those customers. That's their first time in there. They come back, you know, couple times a week. You know. Now you got, you know, let's say they buy your sandwich for 20 bucks. You know. Now you have your 20 bucks twice a week, $10 a sandwich. Now you have customers that are spending 1000 bucks with you a year. It's unbelievable,

Dave Bullis 52:27
Yeah, by the way, I not to. I know you got to go to have you ever seen that interview that Gary V did with John Taffer, and John Taffer explained how to actually keep customers. So basically, I'll just give you the quick, concise version of this conversation. He said, the first time someone comes to your restaurant, he goes, there's statistical analysis of a first time, second time, third time, and then a fourth time customer. And he said, the first time they come in, what he does is they get a red napkin. Hey, this is your first time here. Dave, all right, come this way. Here's your complimentary rib dinner, your prime rib dinner. Hey, how did you like your prime rib Well, you know, they're a first time customer, as does all the weight staff and everybody else, because they have that red napkin. Nobody else, except first time customers, have that red napkin. Hey, how'd you enjoy your rib dinner? Oh, we loved it second time around. So great did? Well, here you go. Here's a coupon, and you hand write the coupon, you know, 20% off the chicken dinner or whatever else. Try this. You're going to love it. They come back second time, and you keep doing this because it statistically has proven that a fourth time, if they come back, a fourth time, they'll come back for life because they love they have those experiences. So you're not marketing to them from one visit or two visits or three visits, but you're marketing them through all four of those visits. So they'll keep coming back.

David Feinman 53:45
I see the same I see the same thing in my visit business. You know, people do one video with us, and they'll do a second and a third. And our best customers, you know, we've worked with, you know, over 100 companies at this point. And our best customers give us, you know, referrals. And they, they, they keep ordering from us over and over again. But it's, I mean, you're to that point. It takes a couple times before they, you know, before they get in and they'll kind of, they'll kind of trust you after a little bit,

Dave Bullis 54:12
Yeah. And then then it becomes just, hey, you know what? I'm really in the mood for a good meal. Hey, I'm in the mood for, you know, a good video. You know, I need, you know what? I mean,

David Feinman 54:21
What do you want up in 24 hours?

Dave Bullis 54:25
Come on, I need it now. What's so hard about it?

David Feinman 54:28
Yeah, just put the turkey on the bottom and just turn the camera.

Dave Bullis 54:32
I just, yeah, exactly right. I just want a picture of a stove. Yeah, yeah. I could. I could talk to you for a little while longer, because I have a funny story about a guy who tried to make a video of a restaurant. And I should, I should have got it into the end of the end of this conversation, but I know we're running out of time. And Dave, I want to say again, everybody listening to this, I'm going to put Dave's stuff in the in the show notes, contact him in the Philadelphia area and take him out on a pretzel pretzel meeting. That'll be the new thing. No no more call. Meetings. There's pretzel meetings.

David Feinman 55:01
Now, the big thing all day, baby, let's go.

Dave Bullis 55:05
Dave I want to say thank you so much for coming on, man.

David Feinman 55:07
Hey, thanks for having me.

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BPS 458: Finding a New Creative Path in Indie Film with Charmane Star

February 12, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

On today’s episode, we sit down with Charmane Star, an actress whose career path proves that the film industry rarely moves in straight lines. Known to many audiences for her role in Black Dynamite, Charmane’s journey into mainstream and independent film came unexpectedly—but once she stepped onto a traditional movie set, she discovered a creative world she instantly fell in love with. What began as a small role turned into a Sundance Film Festival premiere, a Sony Pictures acquisition, and a doorway into indie filmmaking that reshaped her career.

Charmane explains that when she was first cast in Black Dynamite, she didn’t think much of it. Having already worked on mainstream productions for HBO and Cinemax, the set itself didn’t feel foreign—just bigger. What surprised her was the scale of collaboration and the warmth of the cast and crew, led by Michael Jai White. A year after filming, she received a call that would change everything: the movie had been accepted into Sundance. Watching herself on the big screen for the first time, surrounded by an audience, was both surreal and electric. The film’s success introduced her to the power of independent cinema and the global life a movie can take on after release.

As Charmane continued working, she became fascinated by how films are received differently around the world. She recalls attending international screenings where Black Dynamite played to packed theaters—but the humor didn’t always translate. In France, for example, jokes that brought down the house in the U.S. landed in near silence. Instead of discouraging her, the experience opened her eyes to cultural nuance and the importance of universal storytelling when working in indie film.

Her next major chapter came with Face of Evil, a horror project that pushed her far outside her comfort zone. Unlike her earlier roles, this film required heavy zombie makeup, night shoots, and physical performances that emphasized movement, sound, and transformation rather than glamour. Charmane embraced the challenge, learning how to strip away instinctive performance habits and replace them with raw, physical acting. Long nights, eerie locations, and moments of accidentally scaring herself in mirrors became part of the experience—and part of the joy.

Later, she joined the cast of Catch 22, an indie thriller that required emotional depth and patience. After auditioning on tape, she landed the role—but production wouldn’t begin for nearly two years. During that time, she helped promote the project, stayed connected with the creative team, and remained committed. When filming finally began in New York, she faced one of her most intense roles yet, portraying a troubled character caught in a web of violence and addiction. The production demanded vulnerability, trust, and emotional resilience—balanced with small personal rituals, like post-scene donuts, to reset between takes.

Now living in France, Charmane reflects on a career built through openness to opportunity rather than rigid planning. She speaks candidly about typecasting, the realities of auditioning, and the importance of personal happiness alongside professional ambition. While focusing on family life, she remains open to future projects—especially in Europe—where international filmmaking continues to evolve.

Ultimately, Charmane Star’s story is one of reinvention, curiosity, and creative courage. From a surprise Sundance breakout to indie horror and thrillers, she reminds us that careers grow when artists say yes to unfamiliar challenges and trust the process—even when the path ahead is uncertain.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:47
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:54
On this episode, I'm talking to a former adult actress who is going into the acting and modeling world. She's actually been doing it for a few years now. She started in Black Dynamite, and she's also starting in catch 22 which is actually released this year. It's actually released a couple months ago, and we just had Josh on on the last episode, and he actually was the director of the project, really quickly. I know we briefly talk about the adult film world, world. Yeah, sorry, if I could actually talk, we do briefly talk about the adult film world from and honestly, it's probably 1% of this conversation. So if you're you know, maybe tuning in to hear more about that. I'm sorry. We're not really going to talk too much about that. Literally, it's like 1% and 99% is about just the crazy world we call the indie filmmaking world, with guest Charmane Star. Hi Charmane thanks all for coming on the show.

Charmane Star 2:48
Hi Dave. Thank you for having me.

Dave Bullis 2:50
Oh, it's my pleasure to have you here. You know, I wanted to ask Charmane, you know how you got started in the film industry. It's a question I ask everybody, because nobody has the same exact story, and I just wanted to ask, you know, how did you find yourself in the film industry?

Charmane Star 3:07
How I found myself in the film industry? It wasn't it was not too long ago, I was in the I started in the adult industry for quite some time, about 15 years. I, you know, I did various films, adult films, magazines, I, you know, so I built a name for myself. And I think it was around 2006 or seven. My agent had a booking for me, the director specifically wanted me in the movie so I didn't have to cast for this role. And it was a very short role. It was for Black Dynamite, and I didn't think anything of it. I thought it was just, you know, a usual mainstream because I've done a few mainstreams for, you know, I've shot for HBO Cinemax, some commercials. So I thought it was okay, you know, just a little mainstream role. And then when I, you know, when I shot the film, everybody was really amazing, the cast and crew, the director, you know, Michael Jai White, you know, everybody was really nice. And it was, you know, it was only few days that I shot the film. A year later, they gave me a call, and they said that the film was going to be in Sundance Film Festival and that I was invited. So I thought that I was surprised that this film, you know, was went so big, and when I went to the film film festival, Sundance Film Festival, it got picked up right away by Sony Pictures. And, you know, I I went into this new world of the mainstream, world of film, and I fell in love. I loved it. That's how I started. In the film, you know, mainstream film industry.

Dave Bullis 5:04
So just to go back to when they first approached you about being in Black Dynamite. So what were your your first impressions of actual, of actually, of the film industry, of, you know, having to, sort of, you know, there's a lot of waiting around, as they say, there's a lot of downtime. So, you know, did you find it a lot more, sort of hectic, slower, faster. You know, what were your first impressions of it?

Charmane Star 5:27
Well, my first impressions were, it was, it's just like the same set that I, you know, in the adult industry. It was, I mean, it's a big production. I wasn't really nervous because it was just a set, but I was kind of nervous because there was a just a little bit more people. There's just a lot more people involved. And it was, it wasn't, you know, the the cast and crew and director I wasn't familiar with so, you know, there was some downtime. But you know, that's just how, how it is. You know, even in the adult industry, there's always a lot of downtime. You got to wait for your scene. So I'm used to that. So, you know, there wasn't anything new. The only thing was just getting used to different people around me, you know, the director and the cast. Because, you know, I come from a different world of film, so just meeting regular actors and and, you know, from that side of the world, it's, it's very interesting, because they were surprised about me, because I was, you know, a little bit more confident in, you know, the scene, because then the scene I was, you know, I should be naked, but, you know why? When I started this, you know, this, they shot the scene, I had a robe on, so when the director said, you know, he was ready, I, you know, I was confident. I didn't feel kind of insecure about not showing my body. But it's funny, because the the crew around me were actually more shy, you know, they're like, kind of looking away and making me feel comfortable. Like, are you okay? Here's a towel. I'm like, no, no, no, it's okay. I'm, you know, I'm fine. So it was, it was very it was nice, it was sweet. You know, they you know, that's the only thing that was different.

Dave Bullis 7:14
You know, Lloyd Kaufman from trauma entertainment. I don't know if you know who Lloyd is, so he's a, he's been producing movies for like, 30 years, and one of the things that he, he found was that, you know, cert, like actresses, whenever they they have to do, like, a nude scene like that, or maybe, you know, be in front of the camera like that, they all, they just the day of the shoot, they get very tense. They They start out, you know, they start, you know, saying, Oh, I don't know if I want to do this. And that's when he, basically, he approached like, Jenna Jameson at the time, and said, you know, would you want to do a scene where we can just have you noon in front of the camera? And she said, You know, I'm so used to it. It's, you know, it's like another day at the office, so to speak. That's when he started getting like, you know, more adult performers in some of his movies to do scenes like that because they're they are so comfortable with it.

Charmane Star 8:03
Yes, yeah, I totally agree with that. Yeah. I, I think it's because of that, you know, being comfortable in front of the camera, being professional, knowing the lighting, knowing your surroundings. You know, it's much easier to work with somebody you know, in that, if there's a particular scene that has that someone has to be naked, or, you know, it's, it's not as it's not as hard to deal with, yeah, so,

Dave Bullis 8:31
So, so when you finally saw a Black Dynamite, you know, you were, you were showing a screening of it, did you ask? What did you think of the movie initially? Because, I mean, it is a playoff for, like, the grind house 70s movies. And, you know, being a film nerd with no life, I really, you know, got the movie right off the bat. I thought it was hilarious. But I'm interested to know your thoughts, you know, what was your first impressions of the movie?

Charmane Star 8:53
Well, the first time I saw the film, I saw it at Sundance Film Festival. I never went to the screen. I mean, it was, it was the premiere there, and to see myself in the big screen was amazing. I was, I was, I don't know, I had a eerie feeling. It was, it was amazing. And when I saw the whole film, because I, you know, I knew it was a Kung Fu, 70s, you know, blaxploitation film, I just, you know, I didn't see the whole film because I only had those two days or few days of shooting, and I absolutely loved it. I thought it was hilarious. Because I'm, you know, I'm, I'm from California. I grew up in 80s, 90s, so like the whole, you know, the style and the attitude and the slang, I got it all. I understood it. I was laughing the whole time. It was, it was amazing. And plus, I love the whole kung fu thing too. It was amazing.

Dave Bullis 9:47
Yeah, I thought it was, it was great as well, especially, you know, again, it was that throwback, those that 70s Grindhouse feel to it. And I'm glad that they took a, you know, a quote, unquote risk with that movie, because you know, nowadays, everything either has to be a reboot or it has to be an existing intellectual property. And it's, you know, whenever you see a new, fresh movie like this come out, it's too often that movies like this could just get buried, because, you know, the you know, things happen by by a panel and they go, oh, you know, Black Dynamite or whatever. No one's gonna want to watch that. But I'm glad that actually got the promotion that it deserves, because it was a fantastic film.

Charmane Star 10:35
Oh, yes, it was, you know, it's, it's original, you know, it's not take, you know, there was, there weren't any parts where it was taken from another film or this and that, it was just, it was, it was a collaboration. But it was done very well. I mean, it took, you know, it just got all these little parts of of history that that everybody, any American, you know, like, understands, yeah, exactly, yeah. It was very interesting. You know, like, I saw the film a few times in America because there, there were a few festivals, and the premiere was at the Arc Light in Hollywood. I also attended the American Deauville festival in France, and when they played the film in front of the French people, it was surprisingly not funny for them. You you can, you can hear like just there were only two people laughing in the whole theater, and it was just me and the director. It wasn't anyone else, like it was. So it was weird because they didn't understand the, you know, the the American, you know, humor per se. So you didn't hear you they were just kind of watching it like, what is this? So it was weird, but it was, it was very interesting to see, you know, that movie in a different country, and their reaction, it was very it was funny,

Dave Bullis 12:05
Yeah, and that brings up a good point, just about, you know, the sort of cultural differences, you know, between American humor and maybe French humor, you know, I think it was, I think it was John Carpenter who said that, in France, he's a Horror filmmaker. In in England, he's a I'm sorry. In France, he's an altar. In England, he's a horror filmmaker. And in America, he's a bum. And basically what he meant by that was they all have different interpretations of everything. And you know, John Carpenter is a genius as well, and but it's just, but it's just always interesting to see those types of things. And as we speak about that Charmaine, one of the things that I heard about was that movie studios now are thinking about releasing different cuts of the different of the film, so like you might see somewhere else, more often they than they already do. Basically that means so that way, it'll placate maybe audiences in China, and they'll placate audiences in France and placate audiences in Germany that way, instead of just trying to release the same thing. I mean, they already do that anyway, but now I'm saying, like, more and more so, and it's probably going to come to the indie level as well, because, you know, just so again, because now Netflix is, everyone has Netflix nowadays. So, yeah, so I but to avoid something like that where there was almost, like, no, no laughter in the whole theater.

Charmane Star 13:20
Oh yeah. It was funny. It was, it was like, they, yeah, they had no clue what, you know, why it was funny. And you know that, like the scene where, you know, like, they were at the restaurant, and how they discovered chicken and waffles, you know, I don't know if you remember that scene where, when they said chicken and waffles, and we know, chicken and waffles, you know, it's, it's a very American, you know, thing. And in France, they were just like, okay, and they're just like, oh God. And I had to, like, hide myself from laughing, because I know the movie is funny, and the people around me were just like, what's so funny? So it was, yeah, but it was interesting. It was it was fun,

Dave Bullis 14:01
Yeah, and I'm glad you had a good experience, you know, with it, because, you know, sometimes, you know, on first movie sets like that, some again, like I was saying about down times and things like that, some people can sort of come away and be like, Yeah, I did that once and never again. And I'll give you an example of that. I was on a film set runtime, and we had to be in a bar, and his bar saying, this is years ago, when I, I was doing background work. And I actually was in this bar in the middle of August and here in Philadelphia, and it was so hot, and they to turn off the air conditioner in the bar. Oh, that's terrible. I when I walked out, I literally looked like I jumped in a pool and I got back out. I was like, my shirt, I was a blue shirt I was wearing. You could, like, it was just all this, yeah. And a couple of people were like, Hey, this is, you know, our first thing, like, we're, is this what this is like, because we're never gonna do it again. And I was like, No, this is just a bad situation, you know. So as you should, you know, as you complete a Black Dynamite. You know, what we did you want to go back into, into, into the film world, or maybe even TV? Did you say to maybe your agent, manager at the time, if you had one, hey, I want to get more parts like this.

Charmane Star 15:12
Yeah, you know, I did after, after I had that experience, you know, I I've kind of, I think during that time, I think it was 2008 nine, I was at the level of my adult career where I didn't have to shoot as much, you know, I already built a name for myself. So I had different goals of, you know, changing my career, you know, crossing over, you know, talking to my managers and agents and telling them, okay, if there are any, you know, mainstream, you know, television films, you know, bring them my way. I, you know, I didn't want to do scenes anymore. They're, you know, like boy girl scenes. But I was only particular to doing just girl Girl scenes. So I slowly changed my career, and I also featured dance. So I, you know, I traveled a lot, you know, once or twice a month, feature dancing all over, you know, all over the country. So that took up a lot of my time. That way I didn't have to shoot adult film, and I can focus on, you know, crossing over. So I did, you know, I shot a lot of, you know, for Cinemax, you know, the, I was a series regular on, you know, on, you know, those texts, what is it? I forgot those. It's been a while here. You know, the soft core, you know, the skin a max stuff, so that, even though it wasn't, I mean, it was mainstream, but, you know, I, I was, you know, I was interested in doing more of film. I liked the whole world of film, especially indie film, so I found another agent that was specializing in in just film. And I did a lot of, you know, I tried. I did casting. I cast it for some parts, but it never worked out. I don't know. I was never picked or anything. So the next film that I did, it was the face of evil, and it was actually a friend of mine. He was, you know, he was involved in in in the mainstream industry, and he asked me if I was interested or just, can you read for this film that I'm, you know, my friend is doing, he's directing. And I said, Okay, I'll give it a try. And the director asked me, Would you like there was two parts? One was the main role, or this other role? And he told me that the other role fit me best because of my personality, because he got, he says, I can bring it out more. So I just, I also took that as an opportunity. Like it was, it was very, I don't know, like the two films that I've done, they've came to me, which I'm grateful for. So I never really had the opportunity to really, you know, like other actors, you know where they have to cast and then they get picked, but you have to do more casting. You know how like they like a reoccur. You know they have to cast again or read again. I never had that opportunity.

Dave Bullis 18:14
So when we talk about casting Sherman, I wanted to actually ask, did you ever found yourself maybe, you know, typecast, or maybe we're given similar roles and meaning, like, you know, I've had friends of mine who are from the Middle East, their middle eastern background, and they said, Dave, the only things that we ever get are two things, number one is like an Indian shop clerk, or number two is playing like a suspicious terrorist type. And I and they always, they always talk to me about that. And I just wanted to ask, you know, do you ever find yourself typecast in, in roles, maybe at all, or do you do? Do you not experience that?

Charmane Star 18:52
I think I've gotten typecast before a few times. You know, Asian girl, either Asian or and I'm a, you know, I'm comfortable doing nudity. I'm also, and, yeah, just a sex, you know, like, if I could, if I'm able to show my boobs, or, you know, be naked, so, but not really, well, yeah, that's it. And then, like, when, you know, the new, that other film, catch 22 it was an Asian girl, but, you know, I was approached with that, that character, so I never really had to, I mean, I never had to cast for that either, which is, hey, that was nice, you know. But, yeah, I never really experienced it. I had, you know.

Dave Bullis 19:33
So, okay, no, I mean, I always just wanted to ask that because, you know, again, because I was well, because the reason I brought that up was because I had a friend of mine who was bringing that up again, about that whole thing, about being being sort of typecasted. And I just, I always, you know, I always ask that to actors too, because sometimes even when a person plays a bad guy, you know, they never get out of playing a bad guy. They're always a bad guy.

Charmane Star 20:06
Well, yeah, you know, I mean, right now, you know, I, I, you know, I'm comfortable showing my body, you know, and I'm Asian, so that's pretty much my category right now. And the two films that I know I'm, you know, I've, I've, I'm naked and, you know, I'm Asian, but you know, it is what it is, you know, it's, it's a part sometimes, I mean, you can't, I can't change into a Latina or a black girl. So, you know what I mean, yeah, yeah.

Dave Bullis 20:39
Well, my prediction is this in the next, I think five to actually, probably sooner than that, probably next three to five years. I think the the roles for Asians are going to skyrocket, because they're the market over there. Japan's always, you know, Japan's Japan, but China, they have the largest film industry in the world. Sorry, they, Oh, really, yeah, they actually, I'm sorry, actually, Bollywood is still number one, but, but China's coming. It was France becoming number one. And then you have, obviously, Vietnam's on the rise. South Korea is, is also, they have a wonderful film market. Some of the best filmmakers in the world actually come from South Korea. And, I mean, it's just been, I that's why I think you're going to start seeing and again, I mentioned Bollywood, which is in India, I meant I I'm predicting there's going to be a lot more different types of roles also, because if Hollywood wants to keep exporting movies to those big markets, they're going to have to appeal to those markets. So that's why I think those Asian, Asian roles are just going to not be so stereotyped anymore, and they're going to be more wide open.

Charmane Star 21:42
Yeah, I'm seeing that. I'm seeing, you know, because it, I mean, the world is getting bigger, and, you know, the attention is, you know, there's a lot, there's a bigger, it's a bigger world out there. Actually, there's a former adult film star. Her name is Sunny Leone, oh, yeah, she's huge in Bollywood. She's an actress. She does the mainstream. She's there. She's like, she's so famous there. And it's crazy. Surprisingly, she came from the adult and they've accepted her, you know, and changed her career, and now she's a big superstar there. It's amazing. Yeah, you know, yeah.

Dave Bullis 22:22
I mean, I'm sorry to me cut you off. Oh no, no, go ahead. I was just, I mean, as we talked about Sonny Leone, you know, she made the transition from, you know, adult films to mainstream, you know, Sasha gray too. She Oh yeah, and Sasha gray as well, yeah, yeah. And she's been in a ton of stuff. I was actually watching a horror movie and she just appeared. I was like, oh, there's Sasha. I was like, I didn't even know she was in this but yeah, you know it's, I forget the girl's name. It'll come back to me soon as we're off this call, but off the podcast. But I remember, oh, Tracy lords. That's what

Charmane Star 22:56
I was thinking. Oh yes, Tracy Lord. She's, yeah, she's one of the original, yeah, the original, yes, your crossover,

Dave Bullis 23:03
Yeah, cuz I see her, you know, she's in a ton of movies now. She's in a lot of horror movies now, but, but yeah, I mean, it's just, you know, just, I was just giving examples again, as we talked about, you know, sort of making that transition. And those names just popped in my head. But, you know, just back to your career, Charmaine, you know, you mentioned face of evil, you know, how did you go about getting that role? Was, did your did your manager sort of find you the audition? And you went and you auditioned and got the part?

Charmane Star 23:28
No, actually, a friend of mine. He's a publicist, and he works in the mainstream industry, and he was reading for that, that particular script, and he asked me his friend, that's the director are is looking for, you know, just a few people to read for, you know, these two roles. And he asked me if I was interested in reading for the roles. And I read two different characters, and the director gave me one part, and, you know, I was honored. I was like, Okay, great. This is another film, another opportunity. And it was pretty big. I mean, it was a lot of characters I got to meet because it was, it's a good film. It's a very interesting film. I've never done a zombie film. I've never done, like, anything horror, horrific, or anything. And especially with, you know, makeup, you know, and just playing a role that I've never played before, like just ugly and zombie and making weird noises, I really had to do the all of that. And it was, it was, it was nice. It was very interesting. I was, I'm glad to have that opportunity. A friend of mine, you know, gave me that opportunity. So it wasn't very hard. I was lucky to, you know, get that part. And it was fun. It was a really, really fun, interesting film to shoot. We shot in like a really broken down. Calls. Every scene was a night scene. So we had to start at like, you know, in the evening to like, six in the morning. And during that, I think we shot it. I shot it for like, few three weeks or something. And one week I was in jury duty, and it was the same week where I had to wear, like, zombie makeup, and it was so difficult, because I told the director one night. I said, I'm sorry I have to get off. I had to get off early because I have jury duty at like, seven in the morning, and he you know, and you know, how directors are, they want you to stay until they finish something. So I ended up staying really late, and, I mean, I, I had to drive home in the sun with, like, zombie makeup. And I literally looked so scary driving home with a scary face. Oh my god, I look like, I look like a crackhead, like, seriously driving home, you know? You know, zombie makeup. It's just, like, white face with like, just, Oh, my God. You know, veins everywhere. It was. It was crazy. And then I had to go to jury duty. It was amazing.

Dave Bullis 26:08
So when you walked in for jury duty, did they just say, Oh, we passed Charmane,

Charmane Star 26:12
No and it's funny, because once they said that, and I thought, you know, sometimes when you're in jury duty, you know, okay, you know, there's like 30 people, and you know, they only have to pick like 12. And hello, they picked me. They picked me. I was, I got so lucky. I was one of the 12 people, and I had to go back again. It was crazy. But once we got to court, they dismissed the case. So I got, you know, even more lucky to not go further. So, you know, that was, that was good. Oh, but, yeah, it was, it was a very interesting movie at the the I actually, there were a few moments, you know, because I had to be in makeup, and we had the makeup artist, he's, he was Japanese, and he specialized in, you know, those, you know, the scary, I don't know, those zombie, scary makeup. And at night, it was just, you know, looking at myself in the mirror. I, you know, I would scare myself, like, like, when I would walk into the restroom and had to pee, and I would wash my hand, I look up, I'm like, oh my god, I can't look at my face. I can't look at myself. It's just so scary.

Dave Bullis 27:24
It's funny, because I actually was a, was a background in a horror movie once, and I was, like a, I was a, a corpse in a pile of dead bodies, and I had like this fake blood all over me. So I got it while, you know. So after the shoot was over, I thought I had, you know, I took like this wet wipe type thing. I wiped my face. I thought I got it all done. So on the driving home, I asked my friend, like, listen, let me, let's stop at this little, this little, like, thrift store slash bodega, whatever you want to call it. And I, I was like, I want to grab a drink. And I walk in, and the one guy behind the counter, just like, looks up and staring at me. Well, I was like, what the hell I was like, What do I got something on my face or something. I still had blood and stuff all in my hair. I look like I was in probably a car accident, and just sort of walked in. And luckily, though it's Philadelphia, I just kind of blended in eventually but

Charmane Star 28:12
Ohh my goodness, right, see, I was in LA and I was in a car, and they're just like, okay, that's, you know, and it's kind of acceptable. It's like, okay, this is an actor, you know, as an actress, you know, but yeah, it's, isn't it funny? You just, you just forget that you look like that.

Dave Bullis 28:28
Yeah, yeah. Really, it's, it's sort of like, out of sight, out of mind,

Charmane Star 28:33
Yeah, it was a good film. It was really the characters, you know, the the other my fellow actors, they were all mainstream actors. Jamie Bernadette, she's a she was the lead role she does, she she does a lot of horror films. She, she's from, you know, she comes from that side of the world of all horror films. And, you know, she's used to it. So she kind of taught me a little bit because, you know, being a zombie, playing a zombie character, you have to, you know, for me, my experience is to look glamorous and smile and look gorgeous, you know, like have seduction in my eyes and all this stuff. So I had to remove all of that. And directors like, I want you to sneer, and I'm like, What's sneer? He goes to sneer. That's, it's like a sound, and you got to go, you know, like, just sneer like a zombie. And I'm like, How do you do that? So he's like, come on, you got to be serious. And I'm like, oh my god, I have to, and I had to get into this weird zombie role, you know, that's, and I, and I did, it was nice. It was very, I'm glad that I can, you know, I'm able to change, you know, my this character, or my, you know, the side of me, and go in a different direction. Yeah, it was very nice.

Dave Bullis 30:04
Yeah, it's always fun when you ever, when you're able to sort of step into a character and try out new things. You know, it's always, it's always sort of great to that. That's why, as again, we go back to sort of typecasting. That's why, you know, if you're always playing a bad guy, you sort of have to, it's a little bit more difficult to try new things, because, again, you're always a bad guy. But when you're able to sort of step in different characters, it's great to being able to try out this stuff, like, you know, obviously being able to play a zombie and finding out, you know, almost beyond pantomime, you have to sort of come up with all of this, almost like a, you know, on the spot,

Charmane Star 30:36
yeah, yeah. And then I had to die, you know, even dying, you know, I have to do, like the little shake and the eyes rolling back. And, you know, that was very interesting to do. You know, it was fun, and then blood coming out of my mouth, you know, like spitting it out. And, you know, just, it was very fun. I loved it. I loved I loved all that. What, you know, special effects, blood and contacts. And, you know, it was, it was fun. I loved it.

Dave Bullis 31:09
Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that too, because sometimes, again, you have to put fake blood in your mouth. And I remember, I was on a set one time, and somebody actually said he goes, I can't take the fake blood. And everyone was like, trust this. We're gonna have it in there for like, five seconds. Like five seconds. We're just gonna roll and shoot with it. And he goes, All right, fine. And he agreed to it, and that blood, he had to do it so many times, and it was like his teeth were all red. And then he was like, he goes, Yeah, that was five seconds, all right, but, but he had a good laugh afterwards. But again, it's stuff like that. You know, that's why I, you know, I always ask about different film experiences, because it's always, it's always fun to hear stuff like that, you know,

Charmane Star 31:46
Yeah, well, you know, sometimes they say, Oh yeah, you know, just leave it in your mouth for a while and we're gonna do it. And you actually are just sitting there, and you're just like, you want to throw up, like, it just tastes nasty, you know? And you're just like, oh yeah. But it's fun. After that, it's like, okay, I loved it. I loved it.

Dave Bullis 32:06
So, so, so Charmane, after, you know, you finished face of evil. You know, you got to you work on catch 22 which is how we met through Josh. Josh, yes, yeah. And I wanted to ask, how did you go about getting this role? Did you sort of, you know, have, again, have a connection through your network, or is this something that you had to sort of audition for?

Charmane Star 32:26
Yeah, my my agent, he he gave me a call, and he said that there was a mainstream role for you that you need to read for. And I think I was traveling at the time, and I think, I think it was during the time that I was quitting the industry. I, you know, I wanted to retire in the adult industry, but this is, he's like, this is a mainstream film, you know, would you be interested? And I said, of course. So during that time, I casted for the role he, you know, it was, he was in New York, so I had to read my part, and I had to, you know, tape it on, you know, video, and send it to him to see if I, you know, fit the part. And I think I've read it a few times until Josh said, Okay, you have the part for the role, and I got the role. But during that time, after that, after I got the role, I think it took a while for the film to or the production to start. It took, I think, a few years we had to build the film, you know, like, build some funding. And, you know, I helped also promote the film funding through my, you know, my social media. And you know, I was dedicated to it. I said, anytime you guys are ready, I, you know, I'll be there. And ready. He sent me the script, and I read the whole script. It was very interesting. So I, you know, I, I wasn't really prepared until the finally, the production was ready after, I think it was after two years or something. And during, I traveled quite some time during those two years. And I think the finally, the the year we shot the film, I was, I was in between moving from a different country, and it was, it was kind of bizarre, because, you know, I was going back to LA, and he said the film is finally ready to shoot in May and and this time I was, I fell in love. I had, you know, my fiance, and I, well, he was my boyfriend at the time. And you know, we were, I was in the verge of moving, either, you know, from Los Angeles to France, and I was going back and forth, flying back and forth from the states to. To France and and then in May finally, you know, we were ready, but I wasn't ready because, you know, this role, this character, she is a troubled girl, you know, you know, had a lot of drugs involved and what else, yeah, she's just, like, just torn up, I mean, beat up, and also she dies. So, you know, I thought it was going to be, like, you know, a little quick little scene, but, you know, they needed me for about, I think, like, a week and a half. So every day, you know, like, I kind of got nervous. I said, Okay, is there anything that, you know, what? What do I need to do? How do I need to prepare? So, Josh, you know, he asked me, okay, do a little research. Watch some films, you know, about heroin and drugs and, you know, and I and some, you know, like, just thriller movies. And then I started thinking, like, oh my god, this is going to be, you know, I have to play a totally different character, like another, like, scary, weird, you know, thriller film, and I have to, I don't know. I just didn't know what I was going to get myself into. So I kind of got a little nervous, but, but he, you know, he assured me that, you know, it's okay, you know, don't worry. It's not really, you know, not going to be too crazy. So when we shot the film in New York, I met the rest of the characters. Everybody was amazing. Josh, you know, everybody was, they made me feel comfortable because I it was, you know, like, you know, there were some parts where I had to get beat up by all of them. Like, there was, you know, because the movie, there were just different parts of they didn't know how I died. So, you know, there were different scenes of me having to be, you know, brutally abused or killed. And so, you know, I it just didn't make me feel I'm a very positive person. So I just didn't want to, I don't know, I've, I wanted to feel a little comfortable with that. So I, I, you know, I asked Josh, like, or, and the director, I mean, and the writer, Shawnee, you know, is there something like, you can you guys have like, I don't know donuts around because, you know, like that makes me feel, you know, it makes me feel like kind of happy and good, you know, is it possible you can have some donuts around? Because, you know, like that feeling of just like this girl, you know, I don't know, she just it just did. It didn't make me feel happy. So they had donuts for me, ready until, you know, after I got beat up, I had, like, you know, here at your donuts, I had a nice donut, and I was back to, you know, being happy again. What kind of, well, he had, they got me a Dunkin Donuts. So that had, like, a variety of, like, glazed chocolate and sprinkles. So I had a variety, like, a, what is it? A, what is it the bear claw? I had all of that. It was really good. So, yeah, it was, it was interesting. It was very interesting. This role, you know, like shooting a, you know, I've never, I mean, having a syringe. I mean, it was a fake syringe, but he's like, Okay, you got to do it this way. This is, you know, they have, they had, like, a little bag, and, you know, it's like a, it's a process, you know. And I, you know, there was things that I had to do, you know, and I didn't know how to, you know, it's crazy. I had to do all of these little things for, you know, the scene. And I said, Okay, you know, you got to do this, and you gotta do that. So it was very interesting to do. And then I had to die, you know, I and I had to have makeup again, like, like I was dead. I had to have bruises on my face. I was, you know, they painted my face kind of white, you know, because I was, I was pretty much dead in the tub. And it was funny, because, you know, there was, there were, there were a few instances where I had to, you know, use the restroom, and I would scare myself again, like I would go in the bathroom at night, because I, you know, and then the bathroom was downstairs, and I would forget that I had makeup on my face, and I would just scare myself again, you know, looking in the mirror like, Oh, my God, I'm back at it again.

Dave Bullis 39:26
You know, yeah, it's, it's, it's, at least you didn't have to go outside, though, or go to jury duty for that one.

Charmane Star 39:33
Oh, yeah, exactly. Yeah, no. And it's funny, because I had to be in makeup like that all day, not only just evening, I mean, even during the day. So like at lunch too. Like, we'll all have lunch together, and I have my robe on and I have my death makeup, and I'm just like, hey guys, you know, outside, and we would eat outside, and they're just people walking around, like, looking at like, Who's this girl? My God. But it was fun.

Dave Bullis 40:12
Just another day in New York City, right?

Charmane Star 40:14
Exactly, right. So, but it was really much fun. I had a great time,

Dave Bullis 40:21
Yeah, you know, as I was speaking to Josh, you know, about how this whole movie sort of came together, you know, you mentioned, you know, about two years, you know, they he was actually talking about that in his interview about how it came together, you know, finding the money making sure the script is set, you know, because that's, that's always the big thing for films, especially indie film, is finding that money to be able to make it, to pay for, you know, not only to pay everyone you know, not to pay your cash, but also pay your crew, locations, insurance. And it's just sort of it, can it? Can, you know, go on for that for, you know, a while, even years, because it's just that's one of the tricky things now, about, about it's always been about indie film, is being able to find enough money to make it, and, you know, sort of without making any sort of artistic compromises. Yeah, so it's, I'm glad you, you're, you're, you know, you're able to be, and I'm glad you were able to make it. And I wanted to ask, you know, have you seen a final cut of the film yet?

Charmane Star 41:19
Oh, yes, yes, I have we there were, there was a film festival in Miami last year. I attended that. It was our first film festival. So, you know, I it was, you know, I live here in France now. So it wasn't, it wasn't a long flight. Was about a six hour, seven hour flight to Miami. So, you know, I was able to attend. And it was, it was not, it was amazing to see it, you know, on the screen, it was really cool. I loved it. It was, they've done it, you know, he did a really great job on the edits. And he also got a lot of amazing, you know, good parts, you know, like my good sides, you know, my back and my hair. Everything he did, he did really good. So I'm, I'm very happy about that,

Dave Bullis 42:12
And hopefully the audience responded to it, not like what happened within France with Black Dynamite. Hopefully the the audience.

Charmane Star 42:19
I hope so, yeah, yeah, I hope so. I think a lot of people can probably relate to this film. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's a horror or it's a thriller film. You know, comedy, it's, yes, it's particular, because, you know, every country, they have different humors, but this is a thriller. And I think a lot of you know, everybody around the world can really kind of relate to, you know, some parts of this film,

Dave Bullis 42:49
Yeah, and I, as we sort of talk about how everyone had Netflix and, you know, indie film, you know, those universal themes are more important now than ever. And universal themes, or, you know, feelings of regret, revenge, all those things that, no matter where you come from, everybody can identify with in one way or another, or, you know, whether they've happened to them or they know someone that this has happened to. You know, love, love, peace, war, revenge, all those, all those sort of universal themes.

Charmane Star 43:16
Yes, yes, exactly.

Dave Bullis 43:18
So, you know, Charmane, you know, I, again, I was talking to Josh about just the release of this film, you know, what do you have any sort of future projects that you're working on right now? Anything, anything that maybe you're in pre production for, maybe anything that you're writing yourself, just, is there anything that you're working on

Charmane Star 43:35
Well, right now, you know, I'm working on being, you know, settling down here in France. My fiance and I are, you know, planning to marry soon. So, you know, like, I have to do all the, you know, all that stuff, preparing for a family. But in the business side, you know, I'm not allowed to work here, so I'm only doing a lot of conventions in the States. I have a convention that's coming up in June in Chicago, and there's another one in New Jersey later in November, but that's pretty much basically what my schedule is this year is just focusing on my marriage, you know, and settling down here in France, that's kind of my first priority. Because I, yeah, it's, it's, you know, moving from a different country. It takes some time, you know. And you know, if, if there is another festival, which actually there is, I'm sorry for the face of evil. There's, I think it's the New York Film International Film Festival. It's in April, so the film will be premiering there in April, but I'm not going to be attending,

Dave Bullis 44:55
Okay and I'll make sure to link that in the show notes about about that premiere, though.

Charmane Star 44:59
Yeah. Is, yeah, it's in New York, but I, yeah, it's, it's, this is, you know, that this is a very critical time for me of just putting family first, you know, for the first time, because I, you know, all throughout my career, you know, it's always just been me, me, me, and, you know, my career and my fiance is very supportive any any festival or anything, you know, I'm, you know, he supports it, even any film. But I think for now, for this year, I think that's kind of what my priorities are, you know. So after, I think settling down and getting, you know, being married, I will fight, you know, like try to pursue my acting career, maybe here in Europe, and find an agency, you know, in the in London area, because they speak English, and hopefully I can finally speak, you know, be fluent in French, where I can start working here in France. So I yeah, that's basically what my kind of goals are right now.

Dave Bullis 46:02
Yeah, I was just gonna say because, you know, you know, you're in France, and you know, the United Kingdom isn't too far away. And, you know, obviously a lot of English, you know, language films do come into Europe. Because usually Europeans, as I've been to Europe several times, and I've noticed they usually speak like their own language, you know, like Italian, but they also speak English, or they speak French, they also speak English. Yes, no, I know foreign language sort of starts there very early. So what So? And I've also have a ton of friends from Australia and New Zealand who are actually moving to Britain, who are in the film industry, and they're in the like marketing promotion side, because it's just it's much bigger than in Britain than it is in Australia and New Zealand.

Charmane Star 46:43
You know, it's funny. I've noticed there's a lot of British actors that are moving into the Hollywood I mean, I mean, even on Netflix or even just film, a lot of actors, like, even, you know, like Game of Thrones and Star Wars, they're all like British actors. It's crazy. So I know that there are some, you know, even films, they shoot a lot of films in, in the London area and the, you know, that side. So, you know, they're there, you know, there could be some opportunity for me there, since it's much closer. So that's pretty, you know, I'm gonna, I'm looking into that, this side, you know, this side of the the world.

Dave Bullis 47:26
Yeah, it's, there are a lot of British actors now in Hollywood.

Charmane Star 47:29
Isn't it funny? Have you noticed, if you really think about it, they're all British. They just speak. They have just an English accent.

Dave Bullis 47:36
Yeah, I think, I think just Alba really started all that because he was on the wire, and now he's doing now he's, he has the best of both worlds, because now he's here and in and in England.

Charmane Star 47:46
I love, yeah, he has a show on Netflix, yes, Luther. I love, I love Luther. He's so good in that show. It's really, really, really good. Yeah, isn't that crazy?

Dave Bullis 47:59
Yeah, because the first time I ever saw him, was in the wire, and he has that Baltimore accent. And then when I saw him, I forget what movie it was with that British accent. Might have been rock and roller, but he was, he was, I was like, Wow. I was like, he's, you know, he's able to sort of do that, do both. And then then I was like, oh, somebody goes, you know, he's actually British. He's actually not American. Like, Oh, well, I didn't even know, because he had that Baltimore accent down. Absolutely phenomenal. I mean, I mean, I have no friends from Baltimore, and he sounded like he could fit right in. Yeah.

Charmane Star 48:29
Isn't that interesting? Like, it's crazy to hear a British person just completely change into an American accent, or, like, even or Boston accent. Or, you know, there's just different accent. It's so weird, because for me, I don't know if I can do that, you know, because my, you know, if I speak a little French, you know, to my, my, my in laws, but I have an American accent, you know, UK, when I say something in French, it's, it's, it's, you can tell I'm American, you know. But like other people, you know, like when they're fluent, you cannot tell, you know, but you can tell I'm American,

Dave Bullis 49:13
But Charmane, we've been talking for about, I think, 30-45 minutes. I lost, I've lost my timer. It's not on the screen right now, but I wanted to ask, you know, is there anything, maybe just in closing that you wanted to discuss, or maybe any sort of final thoughts, to put it and put a period at the end of this whole conversation?

Charmane Star 49:29
Well, yeah, I just want to say that, um, you know, I still want to pursue, you know, doing film and and, you know, my career is still not over, you know, like, this is just, you know, my my personal life. It's like, it's, I'm grateful for everything, and I still want to pursue, you know, my dreams as an actress. And you know, I'm, I'm, I've finally retired into in the adult industry. You know, this year I was honored an induction of the Hall of Fame. Which was it, you know, that's nice of them to do, you know, like, oh, okay, I'm in the Hall of Fame. So that was nice. And, yeah, and thank you, you know, thank you for you know this, this nice interview. And I hope catch 22 can be successful. And you know, you know, catch everybody's eye on this film. It's a really great film. Every all the guys in the film, they're really great actors. Even though I had a short film, it was just a great opportunity to just be in, you know, that world of film.

Dave Bullis 50:50
Yeah, it's been a pleasure having you here. And you know, I'm definitely gonna, you know, link to everything that we talked about in the show notes, again, for everyone listening. So Charmane where could we find you out online?

Charmane Star 51:03
Well, you can find me on my social media. It's very easy. It's just at Charmane Star on my Twitter and my Instagram, and then I have a Facebook fan page, Charmane Star. And if you also want to read, you know, a lot of just hearsay, what says my blog, charmanestar.com, and that's it.

Dave Bullis 51:25
Charmane Star, I want to say thank you so much for coming on the show.

Charmane Star 51:39
Thank you Dave for having me.

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BPS 457: The Untold Stories of Women in Action Cinema with Melanie Wise

February 5, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Sometimes the film industry opens doors, and sometimes you have to build the door yourself. On today’s episode, we welcome Melanie Wise, an actress, producer, and founder of the Artemis Women in Action Film Festival. Standing six feet tall, Melanie discovered early that Hollywood wasn’t built for women who didn’t fit its narrow mold. Struggling to land traditional roles and tired of being typecast, she turned to producing her own projects, determined to tell stories where women weren’t victims but warriors.

Her breakthrough came with Hannah’s Gift, a horror-action film she produced and starred in, which won multiple festival awards. But the road wasn’t easy. Technical setbacks destroyed the original masters, forcing her team to reshoot the film entirely. Instead of breaking her, the challenge sharpened her skills as both a producer and post-production powerhouse. She carried those lessons into her larger mission: creating a platform where strong female leads could thrive without compromise.

That vision led to the launch of the Artemis Women in Action Film Festival, a global event dedicated to celebrating badass women on screen and in real life. From honoring icons like Zoë Bell, Nichelle Nichols, and Paul Feig, to spotlighting stuntwomen who risk it all for unforgettable scenes, the festival has become a beacon for action storytelling with women at the center. As Melanie put it, the festival proves there’s a massive audience hungry for female-driven action, and the worldwide submissions—from places as unexpected as Iran—show that this movement is not limited by borders.

Beyond screenings, Artemis has uncovered hidden histories of women in sports, the military, and aviation, stories too often left untold. Panels have featured pioneers like WWII’s WASP pilots, reminding audiences that women have always been forces of action both on and off screen. With fans crowdfunding the festival year after year, Melanie sees undeniable proof that people want to see empowered women in leading roles — and are willing to back it with their wallets.

For Melanie, the work is both personal and universal. She knows firsthand the obstacles women face in Hollywood, but she also knows the thrill of defying them by creating your own path. With Artemis, she’s not just producing a festival; she’s building a movement that challenges outdated industry narratives and showcases the limitless potential of women in film.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:00
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:20
Hi Melanie, thanks a lot for coming on the show.

Melanie Wise 1:56
Thanks so much for having me was a pleasure.

Dave Bullis 1:59
Oh, it's great having you on, Melanie. And I just wanted to ask and question I ask everybody, and that is, you know, how did you start in the film industry?

Melanie Wise 2:09
Oh, God, you know, it's, I'm six feet tall, and, you know, so, you know, I started out modeling, I moved to acting. And I do think that my height was absolutely a detriment. So, you know, basically, yeah, that, yeah, you know. I think I knew from when I was itty bitty that I wanted to, you know, the arts horror where, what blew my skirt up, you know, but it just, it took me a while to get around to it. I think I started modeling, I think when I was like 20, which is actually kind of old in model terms, you know, finally turned my attention to acting. And, you know, it was like, I come in to read for producers, you know, quite a lot, and they'd never hire me. And I think a lot of it had to do with being taller than the leading men. So, so that's when I, you know, I started producing my own content. And, you know, and that even is a struggle. There is. I I do think there is this. It's, I think it's tougher for taller women and and the other tall women that I've spoken to that are in the industry, I It has been a common theme that they struggle as well, you know, and then, and then, add to that, that, you know, I don't, well, actually, let me be really bald about it. I completely suck at selling the victim, which is usually the roles that are available to women so and you know, it was one of those where, you know, for a long time, our our interest, you know, the me and my teammates, we just we liked strong female leads, and we like women in action. And after running into so many obstacles with it, we were like, Screw it. Let's start a festival. And you know, it's like, if we want to see more of this stuff in the world, then we'll create a place for it to play. And that brings us all the way to the festival. And I didn't mean to, like, jump that far ahead.

Dave Bullis 4:25
No, no, it's no problem, yeah, but you know it, but you were talking about, you know, auditioning. And, you know, I did read your bio, and you were a former basketball standout, correct?

Melanie Wise 4:38
Yeah, I used to play about, Well, I grew up playing sports, and, you know, I still play sports So, but, yeah, no, I, I don't, I guess you could say I have a lot of Mars energy. I think that's the best way, you know, and that war like nature, yeah, that's me.

Dave Bullis 5:00
Yeah, so when you were modeling, and you answered the age around 20, you know, what were some of the experiences there and did, was it? Was it anything similar to when you started doing acting? Did you find any parallels between the two?

Melanie Wise 5:15
Actually, it was just stellar irony, because I started modeling here in California, and at the time, the majority of the industry here was the swimsuit industry, because everyone goes, Oh, well, models are need to be tall. Well, for the swimsuit industry, they hire these itty bitty chicks, and I didn't fit that either. I think my timing has just been kind of sucky, you know, and then I went to Europe, and I did okay. There, I wound up coming home, and I hung up my modeling shoes for reasons I don't even think I remember clearly. And I think it was about three years later that I started banging on the door, you know, in terms of acting.

Dave Bullis 6:08
So when you went to your first audition, you know, what were some of your memories from there? I mean, I mean, you were just saying, you know, you were, since you're six foot tall, you're tall, taller than some of the leading men. So when, when you were going to some of these auditions, or maybe some of these casting calls, you know, you know, what were some of your experiences there? Did you Did you know The Did anyone say anything about your height or what did you know wasn't the experience there? That's what I'm trying to say.

Melanie Wise 6:35
Yeah, no, well, they can't say anything about your height.

Dave Bullis 6:39
No, I was just wondering if I maybe said like, oh, wow, Melanie, you know, you're tall, or anything like that.

Melanie Wise 6:44
No, no. I Well, it's, you know, typically on your resume, your your height is there. So I mean, if they were surprised when I showed up, that was for their lack of reading, because it was right out in front. But you know, I would get a lot of calls for the dumb athlete. Or, you know, actually got cast in a Sunkiss commercial because I was big enough to tackle a guy, you know, stuff like that, you know. So it, while, you know, I don't consider height a specialty, I think the film industry might, you know, that's just like, you know, anyway, yeah, no, I got odd stuff and, you know, and I did get the auditions for victims and such. And, you know, honestly, I suck at it. I can, I can try. I can spend, you know, weeks in preparation. I don't think I will ever sell the victim

Dave Bullis 7:42
Well, well, I want to, I wanted to, you know, as we talk about, you know, auditions and stuff, you know, wanted to ask about Hannah's gift. And you know, you were the lead actress in the horror action film Hannah's gift, and you also won Best Actress at the indie fest Film Festival. So, you know, when you all didn't know when you audition for that, you know, was, was there, you know, I'm going to tell you, I don't, I haven't seen the film, obviously, but it were, you know, were you taller than leading man? Was there? You know, I want to, I actually want to hear about, about that film.

Melanie Wise 8:16
Well, I didn't have to audition for that because I produced it. I Yeah. So, yeah, no, that's But was I? Yes, I was taller than them, then the than the men that were cast in it, but that's usually, you know, I wasn't, it wasn't like they were itty bitty in which does happen in a lot of cases. But you know, I was probably an inch taller than the guy that was in it, you know, it doesn't show, but I knew that, and honestly, I wouldn't care. You know, I am. I love coming across people that don't care, because the bottom line of it is, just as there are tall men out there, there are short men, there are tall women, there's short women. You know, it's like, we're going to be all over the place. And then this idea that the leading man is always supposed to be taller than the female is confusing to me, because the only thing that I think that it offends is the male ego, yeah.

Dave Bullis 9:23
And I can, you know, I understand perfectly what you mean. And, you know, I want to talk more, you know about hatties gift, and you mentioned you were a producer on the film, and now I'm interested to hearing, you know, about the whole producing aspect of this, you know? Because I always like to hear about actors who get into, you know, screenwriting and producing, because what you're doing is you're making your own opportunities, which I think is absolutely golden. I think that is so imperative you know that you know not you know, everybody should be out there, you know, trying to make their own opportunities, you know, and at the same time looking at other projects. So that way you always have, you know, almost like a fallback plan, or having, you know, multiple irons in the fire. So to speak. So when you're producing, you know, Hannah's gift, where did you step, you know, step in as the producer? Did you meet with the director and the writer and and sort of you know, say, Hey, I could actually help produce this.

Melanie Wise 10:23
No, actually, well, yes, and no, the writer director is, we've been producing content together for a long time, and he has, he wrote strong female leads, you know, long before it was popular, and you know, so I met him, and the reason why we got on so well is because we had a similar taste. But, I mean, he writes absolutely beautiful female characters, and so no, when we went forward to produce it, I didn't step in and offer, you know, it was something that he and I actually steadfastly planned out, you know, of the the for the resources that we had and the projects that we had, it was the best one to produce. Because, you know, when you get into low budget production, you know, you can't do an epic fantasy on a micro budget, and that's just the simple truth of it. So you have to choose the project that you can pull off the best with the resources that you have. And you know, in terms of actual production. I mean, I did everything from, you know, planning all of it, to carrying the trash out on set. You know, it's one of those where, if you are going to produce your own content, unless you're showing up to the table with an A decent budget, you are, you're going to bust your ass.

Dave Bullis 11:57
Yeah, it's true. It's extra. Melanie, you as a producer, when you're producing stuff, you know, independent film and stuff, you know, with, with, you know, small locations, a smaller crew. You know, everyone does have to play multiple roles. You know, wear multiple hats, and that's, you know, it's something I, you know, I've been as I've been doing it, you know, things that I learned up along the way is that, and, you know, hey, you know, even if you're a producer, you got to, you know, figure out you know how to get from point A to point B and meet what I mean by that is, you know, hey, you got to, someone's got to go out there wave the pizza guy down. Someone's got to go out there and make sure these guys are coming on the set at the right time and but you're also got to do something else at the same time. So it's like juggling constantly to make sure that that engine, so to speak, of the film is constantly moving.

Melanie Wise 12:44
Yes, no, it won't. For me, it's like, I don't do some people are very comfortable sitting and and I'm probably the most a type personality I've ever met. It's like, you know, I do better when I'm actually in motion. So for me, acting and producing, I don't think is wearing too many hats on set. It's a little bit difficult. But you know, you know your pre production, there are a few things that I can do on set, and then in post, that's post is where probably the bulk of my experience actually lends the most to any anything, because it's like, I can, I have a lot of post production skills, you know, I edit, I do sound effects, you know. You know, I'm pretty much a one stop post house. So, yeah, I mean, I can, there's a lot that I can do with footage.

Dave Bullis 13:49
So did you do any of the post production work for Hannah's gift?

Melanie Wise 13:53
Um, I did, I did. I didn't do, I didn't do, I didn't edit it. No, we had, we had several editors, and we actually went through a mountain of editors for the film, because it was told from the conceit of the film is that it's in real time, and it's told from the point of view of one of the characters, which is actually really difficult to pull off in terms of a production. But the second thing is, is that when we started, you know, interviewing editors, you know, we would explain ad nauseam, you know, how we wanted the film to be edited. And I'm not joking, I think five different editors tried to cut it as a standard film, and you know, it was just one of those where it wasn't landing. So we went through a lot of editors. Ultimately, our masters got destroyed. So we wound up shooting the film a second time, and that's when I was able. To bring the appropriate crew to the table and finish it.

Dave Bullis 15:05
So what So Melanie, that that's that's really interesting and heartbreaking to hear. So how did your masters get destroyed?

Melanie Wise 15:13
Like, my guess is, see, it was interesting. Everybody, nobody wanted to start with in the ingested footage. Everybody wanted to start from scratch, you know, I'll get the I'll add, you know, I'll ingest the footage. And literally, the teeps just suffered. I'll bet money, somebody had a deck that was out of calibration, and it stretched the same

Dave Bullis 15:43
So when you learned that, that you had to reshoot the movie again, what was the first thing that came through your mind?

Melanie Wise 15:52
Um, you know, it's funny. You know, I sweat the small stuff in life. That one, I didn't, I wasn't, like, up in arms over it. But, you know, pretty much it was, I think it was like a month after we learned that the Masters had been destroyed, we were actually producing the film for a second time because the stuff just wasn't fixable.

Melanie Wise 16:16
We would have had, you know, all kinds of artifacts in the in the footage, it was just easier to reshoot it.

Dave Bullis 16:26
You know that that's something similar, somewhat similar to what happened to me. I had a editor who I gave, we admit we shot on actual SD cards, and we gave him all the footage. And that was my first mistake. I should have, I should have kept a copy for myself. And what happened was, he took the footage, he started to edit it, and then basically he had a bunch of problems with his with his business partners, and basically stopped working on everything. Well, his laptop started to go all wonky, and he was asking people for money to fix it. And I said to him, Well, you know, you still have the footage. And he said, Yes. And I said, well, I need to get that back, so I'll chip in some money. Well, he comes back to me finally, about a couple weeks later, and he says, Well, I couldn't raise any money, all I had, you know, and this laptop is just about to die, and this, that and the other thing. So I kept hounding on him to get me back this footage, and he never respond to calls. And then one day, he just deleted me off Facebook, and I actually sent him an email and I said, you know, I said, You're You're lucky that I don't hold you accountable for that lost footage, and he didn't respond back to that. And about a month or so after that, some people also said that he had gotten them into trouble because he had taken on, like, wedding videos, and he hadn't edited any of it. He just sat on the footage, and people were, you know, different brides were asking him, Hey, where's my footage at? And he just let it all sit. And I don't think that guy works in the film industry anymore.

Melanie Wise 17:57
Um, yeah, no. With a reputation like that, you're not going to go far. Yeah, I see, yeah, no, it's in well, you know, it's funny, because I tend to be a little bit more old school about editing. It's like, I don't do anything on the laptop. I'm, you know, strictly desktop based. And one of the reasons why is just more stable.

Dave Bullis 18:21
Yeah. So let me ask you this, Melanie, when you we shot it and you, did you use that? I mean, like you said, you sweat the small stuff and that you you were, you took a lot better. Did you look at as a, sort of like a way to say, Okay, now I can sort of change any any problems I had before, or maybe I could fix any issues that arise before,

Melanie Wise 18:44
Yeah, any, any, anything you shoot, you are going to have an extraordinary learning curve. And, you know, you know, and you get to cringe through post, you know, beating yourself over the head with, how come I didn't think of this at that time. And so, you know, by shooting the film a second time, yes, we absolutely came up with a better finished product. There were, I mean, it was, you know, I have to say, if you don't learn, you know, if you have the opportunity to learn from your mistakes and you don't, well, ouch. Anyway, no, but we, we learned a lot shooting it the first time. So when we shot it the second time, it was literally the same story, but we did it a little differently. And, you know, we've but, but it took a long time. It was like I said, you know, it's one of those where, you know, I can look at something, and if somebody explains it to me, you know, it's like, I try to ask enough questions to really get a firm grip of what they are looking as for as their end product. And, you know, having gone through, I think we wound up going through a total of seven out of. On that project. And it was just mind numbing to me, where you know, you just see them, yes, yes, yes, you when you explained it, but then when you started getting your first cuts back, you're like, Wow, you didn't, you know, or it was an and it's one of those where I have a hard time believing it was so far, you know, out of the ordinary that someone just couldn't digest it, you know. But that's literally what happened.

Dave Bullis 20:36
So, yeah, it's, you know, I've experienced that too, where some some editors, and particularly when I was talking about was saying things like, Oh yeah, I understand exactly what you mean. And then you get it back, you're and you say, wait a minute, that's that's nothing. What I wanted. This is completely wrong. And I usually find the that's why that is one regard where I think emails like, every anytime I would, I would talk to him, whether it be in person, because we actually had him in person to come down, and we were talking to him about edits, right? And we're we had a big, uh, whiteboard in front of us, and we're marking it up, and we're saying, Okay, let's do this and this and this. And we we marked it all down, and then I sent him an email of everything we talked about. And then when we saw the Edit about a week or two later. It was completely wrong. And I'm sitting there going, was I not clear? Then I look back at the email and I'm sitting and I say to myself, Well, no, I I can see that I was I told him this. It's just, you know, either they didn't understand or they didn't read it, or they, you know, or just trying to basically reinvent the wheel.

Melanie Wise 21:38
Well, yeah. And I have, you know, I have come across editors who think they know better. And it doesn't matter if you know better than the person that is standing there, if, if someone is paying you to edit something, give them what they're asking for, you know. And because I, I've seen plenty of people who would like to kind of, you know, direct from the editing chair, which you can do and you know, but it's also one of those where I I also take, you know, what's clear to me, if I was communicating to myself and I consider something clear, it doesn't necessarily mean it's clear to anyone else but me. So even if, as I express it, you know, I could be saying, well, the sky is blue, and they could be hearing that the sky is green. And you know, those kinds of communication breakdowns occur all the time, especially when you are trying to breathe life into something that's not average or typical.

Dave Bullis 22:42
So, yeah, it's very true. And you know, that's why there's an old saying Melanie by Sun Tzu, the guy who with the art of war. It's basically, you know, if the communication breaks down, it's the fault of the commander to the generals, and he's and basically, if that, if he checks that out, but the instructions have been clear, then it must be the general's fault. It's something along the lines, I always butchered sayings here, by the way, on this podcast. But it was something, it was something like that. And basically, you know, he was telling a story that, you know, communication is always the the first person, whoever, who uses the communication. Who is that communications from? They should always assume that this is not clear to anybody but me, or this may be not clear to everybody else. So maybe so if there's ever a miscommunication, I should go back to myself first. But if I did, but if it is clear, then it is the fault of that person. And, you know, obviously in warfare, you know, that's he was talking about, you know, making sure that troop movements were okay. You know, in our, in our world of filmmaking, we have to make sure, you know, communication is key. Because it's moving crews around, it's moving actors around, it's and also it's instructions on editing a final piece.

Melanie Wise 23:54
Yeah, it's a tough job. Producing is not simple at all. And, you know, unless, like, you know, until you make it into, you know, the area of the industry where, you know you've got a decent budget, you're going to be understaffed. And you know that means it, you know, it's like the thing that you give up without money you're going to spend time and but no, I mean, it's a fun ride. It's an absolutely fun run.

Dave Bullis 24:30
So when you finally got the second you finally shot the movie for a second time, and you know, you got the final edit down the way you wanted to. So Did, did you go about submitting to certain festivals, or did you have certain festivals targeted for the for the film?

Melanie Wise 24:47
Well, yeah, no, sometimes you know what this sounds like, a harsh judgment of myself, but it really isn't. It's more of a humorous one. It's like sometimes I feel like I have idiots stamped on my for. Head. Because the thing that you've got to realize with anything that is not a dramedy, excuse me, a drama, comedy or a documentary, most film festivals are not geared to take ingest that content, unless it's a specialty festival. And so people make things that are a little unusual or a little off the beaten track, and it is more difficult to get those types of films placed in any festival.

Dave Bullis 25:31
Yeah, as you know, there's more submissions to various festivals. I know it is, you know, the marketplace gets a little more crowded, and it's a little, you know, harder to stand out, so to speak, and but you know, you actually won for Best Actress at the indie fest Film Festival. So were you in attendance to collect that award?

Melanie Wise 25:52
No, actually, I wasn't. We actually with that we got, we won audience choice at shocker fest. I think we collected a total of, I think, four or five awards for that film. And it was, it was funny because, you know, it was kind of alert. I'm not answering your question, and I don't mean to not answer it, but I was going to distract with something else. So I get, you know, when I submitted us to shocker fest, and then I get the rejection notice, and, like, a week later, they're saying, hey, you've been, you know, or you've been selected to screen at this. And I write them this kind of sniffy email back, saying, you know, hey, you just told me I didn't get in. So what's the real story here. So I think what happened was, is they had something that they picked had fallen out, and so they were taking an alternate and it was one of those where I don't think the people who ran the festival were particularly fond of the film and but they were absolutely shocked when we won audience choice. So that was kind of funny. Yeah, again, it's, it's one of those where, even if it's one of the reasons that we started the festival, it's like, because a lot of the content that we play is not going to show at a lot of other festivals, because those festivals, if you just look at the whole festival world and and what gets played. Genre films are not what they play.

Dave Bullis 27:30
So, you know, as is we were going to talk about now, about the Artemis Film Festival. You know, what was sort of the impetus to start that? Was it, you know, just to show those films that you just said, just to show films that wouldn't get shown anywhere else or so. I shouldn't say certain jobs that were getting shown at certain festivals I should say.

Melanie Wise 27:47
Actually, more to the point is that I have had a long standing belief that women in action is a very lucrative thing, you know. And every few years or so, you'll see, you know, should come out from the studios where they say that women in action is box office poison. I don't remember, if you do. You remember that film, eon flux, that starred Charlize the wrong well, that did not do very well. And I remember, at the time, at that time, I was, you know, very much into studying box office revenues and and what stuff was earning. And hands down, for many years, action is the best selling genre of films above ever anything and, you know, and it's one of those where we have probably almost five decades, where we have a smattering of films that feature women in action, and there's always some excuse not to make more. And when eon flux, the last time I saw it in the trades, you know where they're saying, oh, women in action is Box Office Poison was right around a on flux. And, you know, it was like, you know, a few years prior to that, you know, you'd see comments here and there. But now we're seeing, you know, especially in the last, like, three or four years, we're seeing an ex, we're seeing a tide change. And if you look on TV, you've got an extraordinary number of shows that feature, you know, pretty empowered women and female characters, a lot of women in action. And so that market is there. But if you look at it's it's one of those where I think the biggest impetus there was two impetuses for the festival. One was to create a space for the content to play, and two is to prove that there's an extraordinary audience for it. Because, you know, it's like we get films from 25 countries around the globe on. Most every year, we have a worldwide audience. You know, our social media fans are all over the world, you know. So it's like, this isn't something that is just interesting to a certain group of the population on a certain in a certain area of the world. It's all over. I mean, our first year we had, we actually had a was an animated film. It was, you know, claymation from Iran. And you know, so of all places in the world, we're literally taking in content from Iran, where they are celebrating the strength of the female of the species, which is really kind of ironic. And you know, it's like, because of the festival, we get extraordinary pieces of history for, you know, women that a lot of people don't know about. That's really cool, too. I mean, like, you know, odd fact, did you know that the winningest basketball team in all of written history is a woman's basketball team out of Texas. I think they were called the Flying queens, and think they played from like, like 19, it was like the mid 50s through like, I can't remember the year stretch it is, but it started in like 1956 I think. And they have the little, literally, the winningest basketball record in all of history. Nobody knows about this.

Dave Bullis 31:47
You know, go ahead, no, I was gonna say, Yeah, I didn't, I've, I didn't know that, yeah?

Melanie Wise 31:53
Well, when we showed it at the festival, nobody knew it. It was, it was interesting. Last year, we had a couple of articles written by people. They were published during the festival, but they were published by people who were actually showed up to a few of the the screenings and events that we had. And, you know, it was really awesome to for to see them, right? Wow. I had no idea, you know. But this is, I mean, these are things that should be widely available, then they're not and, and, and it should be widely available not just because we're sitting here going, Oh, it's time to pay attention to women, but because they're part of our history, and they're out there and nobody knows about it. Yeah. It has a it's like, when you talk about women in action, you're going to be talking about, you know, women in sports, military, you know, narrative, obviously, of any genre, but it's like you're in the mill. You know, in the military, stories we get, you know, they're jaw dropping because you don't realize how much women have actually contributed to, you know, military efforts all the way back to World War Two. You know, we've showed films about, you know, the first ladies that actually ever flew aircraft for the military, and they would even test the shit for the guys to fly and, you know, and so they had these, you know, amazing few years of flying airplanes and having this incredibly adventuresome life. And then when the men came back to war, they were, you know, told to go back home and cook for their kids.

Dave Bullis 33:38
Yeah, there's also a history of war two, there's a history of, you know, female fighters. And you know, when the, when the Nazis invaded, in 1941 there was, you know, like women were fighting alongside the battlefield. And they actually, you know, were pilots. I think they were called the, there was actually a pilot group called the, think, the witches or something, or something like that. It was a bit, they were basically, you know, flying these old fashioned planes. But they were just, but, you know, because they were taking on the invading Nazi force,

Melanie Wise 34:07
Yeah, weren't they the witches out of Russia?

Dave Bullis 34:09
Yeah, it, but I think there was a name. I think it was something witches, I can't remember, but, uh, I'll link to that in the show notes everybody.

Melanie Wise 34:15
Yeah, no, I'm pretty, I'm pretty sure you are correct. And then for the US, you had the the wasps, and they were the women Air Force Service Pilots, I believe, yeah, we actually were lucky enough to have a 93 year old Wasp at the festival for one of our warrior women panels last year. I'm sorry, yeah, go no go ahead.

Dave Bullis 34:39
I was gonna say, did a lot of people, you know, ask her about the war.

Melanie Wise 34:42
Oh, hell yeah, yeah, no. And it was literally, I think it was late last year, they actually finally started getting, um, death benefits for these ladies that died in service, you know, because during that period of time when these women were flying, because they were. Were, they were flying back and forth, or some of them were stationed in Europe and they but they basically just did a lot of supply flying and other types of flying for the US. And you know, if one of their, if one of the lady pilots died in service, the ladies literally collected money between themselves to actually bring their bodies back, because, because the because the US government wouldn't pay for it, and they literally just, I think it was late last year where they actually got that. I think they got the law to change so that their death benefits were covered. I mean, some of the stuff, I mean, you know, some of the stuff is mind numbing, and people need to know about it.

Dave Bullis 35:52
Yeah, it absolutely it's very fascinating. And you know that, and again, you know, I'm looking at, you know, some of the people that that you've had at the festival, some of the honorees, you've had Zoe Bell, you've had Yancey Butler, and you've even had Paul Feig on. Some of the honorees, yes, yeah.

Melanie Wise 36:11
And it's absolutely amazing, yeah, no. And this year, and there's more, there's more to announce, but this year we have Tom Cruise, Michelle Nichols, who was Lieutenant Uhura in the first Star Trek. So, I mean, and this, I mean, this lady literally broke so many barriers by playing that role. It's, you know, I mean, to recount that would take a moment, so I won't bore you with the gory details. And then we have some, uh, absolutely fantastic stunt ladies. And one stunt guy, Andy Armstrong, who is Andy Armstrong, is probably one of the top second unit action directors for, you know, big budget blockbuster films. And he happens to be an extraordinary supporter of female stunt women. He actually hires a lot of them, which is really cool. Jennifer Caputo, who's been a stunt woman for more than two decades, and she does all kinds of wacky shit. And then Tammy Baird, who's a she does an amazing body of stunt work as well, but she does the best car hits you can imagine. So I mean she literally, you know, steps out in front of a car in high heels and a doily for a dress, and lets the car hit her. And then there's, gosh, there's one more person, and I'm totally spacing it off. I feel like an idiot.

Dave Bullis 37:38
But don't go bad. Don't feel bad. Melanie, every time I do this podcast, my brain stops working. I swear to God,

Melanie Wise 37:46
Yeah, but no. I mean, we have, this year, we'll have some amazing honorees, and we have, we actually have a couple other announcements coming down the pipeline that are going to be pretty juicy too.

Dave Bullis 37:56
That's fantastic. And, I mean, I and you know, you also have some great media partners. You have film inquiry, you have ink tip, and you have action movie freak, you know. And you know that that's actually a question I wanted to ask is, do, are you at a position now, or where, like different partners pitch you, you know what I mean to So are they finding you out and saying, hey, you know, Melanie's got, you know, the Artemis Film Festival, you know, we should, we should, you know, talk about, you know, sponsoring something here,

Melanie Wise 38:25
Yeah, no, okay, just so, you know. So our first two years of putting the festival on, we were, we crowdfunded, and so, I mean, so we are a fan backed festival, you know. And our, our media partners to date are, you know, basically it's, you know, we basically do cross promotions because we benefit each other and and it's, you know, it's great to find and people that you are proud to promote for the stuff that they do. But yeah, I think we are, we are working on sponsorship, you know, the actual dollar kind, which, you know, so we are working on that, but we will be, you know, we will be crowdfunding again, probably starting right at the beginning of February.

Dave Bullis 39:15
So are you going to be crowdfunding through Indiegogo or Kickstarter?

Melanie Wise 39:19
We'll probably run on Indiegogo, which is where we've been the last two years. Although I am considering, I am considering another crowdfunding platform for a few, a few different reasons, but, but, yeah, the last two years, we've run on Indiegogo, and, you know, we generally call it the women kick ass project, because that's our hashtag. And, you know, we, you know, it's kind of cool to be able to say, hey, we have a completely fan backed Festival, which is what we have.

Dave Bullis 40:06
Yeah, it is amazing. Have a fan back festival. It really, it really, truly is because that way you know, you know exactly. You know where it's you know where the bread is buttered, so to speak. You know exactly what to you know. You know what I mean, like there's no re so many pull the strings behind the scenes, so to speak. If you know what I mean,

Melanie Wise 40:24
No that. Well, there's that. But also, to me, the fact that it's fan base we have. We have a base of fans that are willing to literally financially get behind the production of the festival. It should speak loudly to the fact that people like women in action, damn it, period. So, you know, and, and we get, we get backers all from all over the place too. So it's, it's that, that part is, you know, corporate sponsorship will make, would make our life a lot easier, but I don't I. I can't really express a my gratitude, but also the, for lack of better words, pride that our fans like us so much that they contribute to the production of the film festival. I mean, you know, I plaster their names all over our website, and I put them in our festival program, because I want everyone to know.

Dave Bullis 41:29
And when you know it is 2017 when is the festival for 2017 Do you have, you have a set date right now?

Melanie Wise 41:36
Yeah, now we're going to be our opening night is going to occur at the aria in Los Angeles. It's a theater that's right near Wilson, las cienegas, La Cienega and Beverly Hills, and that'll be April 20, and then the last three days of the festival, the 21st through the 23rd will occur in Santa Monica at lemleys On second in Arizona.

Dave Bullis 41:59
And can people just go to do Artemis Fowl festival.com to buy tickets.

Melanie Wise 42:06
They can. They're not. They're not available for sale. What, what will happen is, when we open up our crowdfunding, that's the first place screening passes will go up for sale after that. Obviously, you know, they'll be available through Lemley as well as our website. And, you know, we have an extraordinary year coming. We've got some we have really astounding content to share. And, you know, we'll have an extraordinary array of panels. You know, we'll have our stunt woman panel. We'll probably have a warrior women panel. We are also going to put together, probably a VR panel, because virtual reality is an extraordinary burgeoning field that is wide open, if women want to jump in.

Dave Bullis 42:56
Yeah, I've seen more filmmakers starting to, you know, sort of dabble in VR, sort of putting their foot in their foot in their water, so to speak, you know, testing the orders out, just to see, you know, see, you know what it's all about. And I'm, I'm actually interested to be honest with you, Melanie, about which way it's going to go. I have, I could see, on one hand, VR going the way of something like 3d where, you know it was, it works well in some areas, but most people, sort of, you know, go back to, you know, the way we do things, you know, normally, or if it's going to be like, sort of like the future, where you just put on the VR headset and you can, pretty much, you know, you can do, you know, go play video games, then you switch it in and out. You're watching a movie, and it's all that, you know, that VR immersive experience,

Melanie Wise 43:41
You know, one of the things that I get that is very interesting to me is, as it comes to narrative, it will be very curious to me to see how that plays out, because we generally don't stand, you know, and you know VR, if you're doing immersive VR, you've Got a headset on, and you know, whichever direction you turn, you have some view available to you, right, which requires the ability to stand. I wonder if people will literally stand. Let's say if it was a narrative film you're looking at, you know, somewhere between 90 to 120 minutes, I'm having a hard time seeing people stand to watch a movie like that. Yeah, you know. So I do think I am 100% certain where VR is going to blow a lot of shit open. You know, it's going to be it, you know, we're always, I mean, come on, look. You know, every, every few years, we're updating our technology, and so it's part of life, and that's just the way it goes. Is things are going to change. People are going to be looking for the next best, new, you know, bigger, better, faster, more, kind of a thing. And, you know, and you know, I do think that you. You know, people will still continue to watch flatties, you know, so I don't think, I just think it's going to be in another area of, you know, the filmed moving image and but the other, the other cool part about VR is some of the stuff that they're doing to actually make a difference, you know, in terms of learning. And there are people that I know that are developing programs for, you know, empathy, um, they're doing all kinds of stuff. I mean, VR is a vast, vast world, and I think that, you know, it's how it's getting used, hasn't even been tapped. There's an and there's, it's just, it's a brand new wide open field, yeah.

Dave Bullis 45:48
And, you know, again, I am very interested to see, you know, which way it actually goes. And I wonder too, if you know, that will be just the new norm. I also wonder if that would be like, the new way to go to work will literally just be like, you know, hey, I'm gonna put on my VR headset and work remotely, because we can have conferences remotely. And, you know, I can just put on my headset. Or maybe I can even work through, like, almost like, actually in the VR world and using holograms, moving holograms around, or, or what have you were actually coming out, you know, you know, I mean, because, again, you know, now everything is so accelerated with tech. You know, every, like you said, Every few years, or something new coming down the pike that sort of disrupts what was just disrupted.

Melanie Wise 46:30
Yeah, yeah. One, one of the things that I always look at with our technology is, you know, the more we immerse ourselves into technology, the less we are can be not always, but the less we are available to, you know, just basic human interaction. And so, I mean, there is, it's a blessing, curse, kind of a thing, you know, because the more disconnected we become from actual, real life, you know, that can cause some, some pretty big problems, you know. But you know, tech is, it's an amazing tool. And, you know, I think that we, we need, we really need to use it wisely. And you know, just, it's no different than the messages that we create with our with our flat, moving images. You know, I think content creators have a responsibility, and I think they really need to take an extraordinary consideration of the messages that they're putting out into the world.

Dave Bullis 47:35
Yeah, very true, very true. Melanie. So, you know, Melanie, you know we've been talking for about 45 minutes now. And I want to ask, you know, you know, in closing, is there anything that we weren't able to discuss that you may want to know to talk about, or do you have any sort of closing thoughts for this whole conversation?

Melanie Wise 47:53
Wow, that's a tough question.

Dave Bullis 47:54
It is. It's a very open ended question. I usually ask that on purpose, just to because it can be anything, really,

Melanie Wise 48:01
Yeah, no, honestly, while we, I mean, we've talked about so much, you know, but no, I obviously, you know, for people who who like seeing empowered images on screen, or just, I mean literally, badass women in action, you know, hey, check us out. It's Artemis film festival.com and you know, we love hearing from you people,

Dave Bullis 48:26
And I will link to that in the show notes, everybody where you can also follow me everywhere I'm on all the social media channels, just like Melanie is. And you know, I I'm getting really big into YouTube now, Melanie, I've realized, yeah, that that's where I've, I've should have been, well, I don't want to, I don't want to bore you with with my whole you don't mind telling me, I want to hear this. Okay, so about a few years ago, I had two opportunities to do, to do web series for on YouTube. Both, both were comedies. Both were like, you know, one was like half hour. Another one was like 10 minutes. I passed on both of them and for for a number of reasons, well, you know, now I kind of look back and I go, you know, it just makes sense for me being in the film industry, meaning this podcast, I upload the podcast to YouTube as well. And what I'm trying to say, out of all this, is I should have been on YouTube first. Be on Twitter, be on Facebook, be on Instagram. Because it just, it's more, it's more correlates more to what we do. And that's why I'm now, I'm getting back into doing, you know, the YouTube stuff. And I, and I actually switched channels about two years ago. I had one before, where I would just put it was like, it wasn't really filmmaking stuff. It was like, random stuff. It was like random stuff I was throwing up there for different stuff. I was doing a lot of freelance videography work, just, there's a whole bunch of other stuff. So finally, closed down that channel, got this new channel. I upload pretty much every podcast episode on there, and slowly, just trying to grow more of an audience on YouTube.

Melanie Wise 50:10
Yeah, no YouTube. YouTube is the number two search engine behind Google, yeah. And you know, it's like, I've known for a long time that YouTube is a very, very, very powerful platform, but it's also one of those where I, I have also been delinquent on YouTube.

Dave Bullis 50:29
See, we could both. We can both now, you know, not be so delinquent anymore. We could both finally get up on YouTube and start, you know, putting all of our stuff on there. Because, honestly, I've had a lot of people find the podcast through YouTube. I've had people find some of my short films. I basically tried to throw everything I could up there that I want people to see. Because, you know, I've made a few, few student short films that I didn't really, weren't really that good at the end of the day. So I was like, I won't show this to anybody else.

Melanie Wise 50:58
Yeah, you know, you got to do it. You gotta do them.

Dave Bullis 51:02
Yeah, yeah. And I just basically use them as a learning experience. And then basically was like, I'll never talk about this ever again.

Melanie Wise 51:11
I hear you. Well, we have, um, I will, I will make sure to check out your, your your YouTube page. What is, what's the name of it?

Dave Bullis 51:21
Real Iron Fist films.

Melanie Wise 51:22
I would not have found that. Awesome. I look forward. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much.

Dave Bullis 58:51
Oh, no, my pleasure is all mine, you know, I want to say thank you for coming on, Melanie.

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BPS 456: The New Rules of Indie Filmmaking No One Is Teaching with the Jalbert Brothers

January 29, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

On today’s episode, we sit down with the Jalbert Brothers, two filmmakers who embody what modern independent cinema truly looks like. Their story isn’t about massive budgets, studio deals, or film school prestige — it’s about relentless execution, skill-building, and using whatever tools are available to tell stories. By embracing low-budget filmmaking and treating every project as both a creative experiment and a marketing opportunity, the Jalbert Brothers have built a sustainable path forward in an industry that often rewards those who simply refuse to wait for permission.

Their journey began where many filmmakers start — making videos for fun, learning through trial and error, and slowly developing a voice. Instead of chasing investors or waiting for grants, they focused on producing short films and features for as little as $1,000. That limitation wasn’t a setback; it was the strategy. By working with minimal gear, tight locations, and small crews, they were able to sharpen their storytelling instincts and technical skills at a rapid pace. Each project became a hands-on education in directing, editing, sound, and pacing.

What sets the Jalbert Brothers apart is their understanding that filmmaking today isn’t just about making a movie — it’s about building momentum. They approach every project with distribution and audience in mind from day one. Social media platforms, online releases, and digital marketing are not afterthoughts; they are baked into the creative process. By consistently releasing content, they trained their audience to expect new work while simultaneously improving their craft with each film.

They also challenge the traditional belief that bigger budgets equal better films. In their experience, skill and discipline matter far more than money. A $1,000 film forces you to solve problems creatively, prioritize story, and eliminate excess. Those constraints lead to clarity — and clarity leads to better filmmaking. Rather than being overwhelmed by options, they make decisive creative choices and move forward quickly, which allows them to grow faster than filmmakers stuck in endless development.

Another key lesson from the Jalbert Brothers is the importance of repetition. They don’t believe in waiting years between projects. Instead, they advocate for consistent output — making films back-to-back and learning from real-world feedback rather than theoretical advice. Each release teaches them something new about storytelling, audience behavior, and marketing. That feedback loop becomes invaluable, especially in an industry that constantly evolves.

The brothers also emphasize collaboration and adaptability. Working closely together has allowed them to divide responsibilities, support each other creatively, and maintain momentum even when challenges arise. Their partnership proves that filmmaking doesn’t have to be a solitary struggle — it can be a shared pursuit built on trust, communication, and a unified vision.

Ultimately, the Jalbert Brothers represent a new generation of filmmakers who understand that the barriers to entry have shifted. Technology is accessible, distribution is democratized, and audiences are everywhere — but only if you’re willing to do the work. Their story is proof that filmmaking success today comes from action, not approval. By embracing limitations, staying consistent, and treating every project as both art and opportunity, they’ve created a roadmap for filmmakers who are tired of waiting and ready to start.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:47
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:54
On this episode, I have two brothers who started their careers in video production 15 years ago as kids making home videos in their family's backyard. One does a lot of the producing. One does a lot of the cinematography, and that's a good team to have. They their credits include producer and first assistant director for the feature film apple of my eye, starring Burt Reynolds and Amy Smart and they also teach a hell of a lot of awesome seminars about making your first film for a few $1,000 $1,000 $2,000 with guests Brian and Jake Jalbert, the Jalbert brothers.

Brian Jalbert 2:29
Well, so I'm gonna take, I'm gonna take it back a little bit. The first time we started going full time was when we started actually, Jake with an entertainment company called Iris entertainment that was kind of like the first inkling of it. And Jake's actually does video full time. I don't I have a construction company, so therefore I'm doing that and I'm doing this at the same time. So Jake actually is the one actually more full time. He does video, full time editing, all that good stuff. But I would say, back in what, 2008 or 9?

Jake Jalbert 3:08
2009 we started a company, yeah, called Iris entertainment, where there was four of us. I did video. There's, you know, some guys that DJ in photography, um, but really, what I think the question you're really asking is, you know, when do we dive in and start realizing that we could actually maybe help some people and and because we've been through a couple projects and in different things, and from the fuga filmmaker, and looking at people talking to different filmmakers, you hear different stories, and it's like, ah, you know, if you, if you just knew this, I think you could this would help you. And that pretty much started, I would say, January, yeah, we've been doing it about a year. Yeah.

Brian Jalbert 3:43
And the thing about us, too, man, is it's not about really teaching per se, and the typical way of saying, Hey, this is the way you should do something, but it's more of documenting our journey per se, what we're doing, some of the things that helped us, and maybe some of the mistakes that we've made, and try to do options. See the problem. I see is there's all these old ideals going on right within the film community and the film ways of doing things. Nobody's really I shouldn't say nobody is doing it, but people need to start experimenting. It's it's, it's, there's new ways of doing things. There's ultimately going to be new people that are going to be coming out and made it, making it in those new ways. So figuring out whether it's making episodic and going and putting on Facebook, Facebook, not Facebook Live, but they got Facebook Watch now, and there's so many different avenues that we need to start, I think, really opening up to and figuring out how to make it work for the film community. If that makes sense.

Dave Bullis 4:51
Yeah, that makes total sense. And you know, you mentioned Facebook too, because with all the ways of distribution and stuff now, you know you have to take into account all. The social media aspects, and then they all got into video now and now, I mean, this is kind of sort of getting away from we're talking about, in a way, but I just saw that WWE is going to start doing live events on Facebook, and which is what I thought was going to happen, where you're going to start seeing, like TV shows or and more sports and stuff like that. They're not going to count on you for Nielsen ratings and watching it through your TV. They're going to count on you watching it on your phone, through Facebook.

Jake Jalbert 5:27
Well, if you think about it, they're going to miss the boat if they don't, you know it's like, it is the thing, you know what I'm saying, it is the thing

Brian Jalbert 5:34
Like, like, I don't know if you listen to the Gary V, yeah, if you really listen to those guys. And the thing about film community is you can't get stuck in the film community ways, what are other people doing, and how can we make that work? You know, Gary V likes to say, you know, take advantage of the situation that's going on and really see where the attention is. And, like, where, ultimately, where is people? Where are people? Eyeballs. It's on Facebook. It's on it's on the social media. It's not in the theaters like it used to be. And I don't get me wrong, theaters will always be there, and theaters are great. And, you know, I'd love to have my movie, you know, I've had a movie played in theater, but it was, you know, we four walled it. But if you, you know, if you actually having a company get it there, and having a wide release, that's, that's phenomenal. But that's not the only way, you know, and that's not the only way to make it work, you know, it's figuring out how to make it work I feel.

Dave Bullis 6:30
Yeah, exactly, you know. And you know, as you talk about doing this, like full time, just to take a step back, you know, that's sort of the crux, isn't it? You know, that's sort of the big question that a lot of filmmakers have, whether they're, you know, 20s or 30s or 40s or what have you, it's, you know, how do I make a how do I become a full time filmmaker, you know? How do I make my movie while at the same time working a day job so I don't go crazy trying to do both, you know? And so you you've actually started to do that. So like, what were some of the steps you took though to sort of just say, you know, what, I don't want to work in an office or do whatever. I want to go around shoot video. I mean, did you start, you know, going around to small businesses and shooting commercials and stuff like that?

Jake Jalbert 7:09
Well, I just, I went out. I went out honestly, and was just, I, we filmed as little kids, and we in the backyard. And, you know, 2009 I just bought a camera and just started filming stuff. And the biggest thing I would say to become full time being a filmmaker is just start making stuff. So start learn how to run camera. Learn how to run sound. A lot of people don't want to learn these things. They want to just direct um. To get a directing job like that is, I mean, it's not you just it's just not you have to learn skills. If you can build skills within camera, okay, you can make money. People will pay you. So, I mean, you just hit everybody up. You film stuff for free. Film tons of stuff. You get better and better. You keep getting better. There's Craigslist or Facebook. You just post your videos that you do on and people just start reaching out to you say, Oh, you become the video guy in your community. So now everybody knows me, you know, saying he does video, he shoots weddings, he shoots real estate videos, he shoots film, and you just become that guy, and work just starts coming in. For me, it was like I was a server, you know. So my job was doing, was serving, and then building my business on the side, video business. And it took about five or six years. So for me, it took about six years to build that, to be full time to where you know me and Brian, we've never liked sitting at a desk. We've never really done that. So we work for ourselves. So I mean, especially Brian, he won't work for nobody. Works for himself, and he does a great job, and he's always managed, and, you know, he kind of took the role as the producer, because he's always managed, and he's always kind of put things together, and, you know, knew how to deal with the tough situations that maybe I didn't know how to do, you know,

Brian Jalbert 8:54
And that's, I think that's the key. Okay, so going full time for a filmmaker is, what are you actually doing? Like, are you? Do you want to be a director like Jay said, learn to run camera. You know, I know a guy that's in our area who does film full time, and he started out in sound, right? He bought some sound gear, started doing stuff for free to get his reel up. Now he's known as the sound guy, and then, just recently, direct a movie. So there's ways in you just have to have that option in your brain looking for those other ways in, like when I went and I ended up being a first ad and a co producer for the apple of my eye movie, right? That wasn't by accident, and most people would say, Oh, well, you got to start as a PA, and you got to work your way up well, you know, I like Jay said, I don't like working for people. So I did that for certain reasons, because I've wanted to work with Burt Reynolds, I wanted to work with Amy Smart you know, I wanted that credit there, but I was able to jump a bunch of steps by building a network of people and not settling for a lower position per se. You know? Yeah, I was a co producer first ad. Normally, I like to run lead, but for that case scenario, I made exceptions and went and get it. You know what I'm saying. So I think that's ultimately what it's like, Jason, building skills

Jake Jalbert 10:25
To touch on that real quick, just super quick. I know we're moving on, but um, in the worst, worst, you know, worst comes to worst. You've built these skills that you have forever, um, and that's where now I can do video, and I can make money, and I can work my way into the industry where I want to be building. I mean, period, building, building skills, sales skills, marketing skills. We're doing it all because that's what it takes now, man, that's what it takes. I believe,

Dave Bullis 10:54
Yeah, it's like what Rob Rodriguez says, you know, if you have the talent, plus the know how you're unstoppable, which means, and by that, he means knowing the technology, how to use it, and then also being, you know, being able to be creative. You know, you're unstoppable then, because you don't have to, you know, depend on a lot of different people, because you had, again, you've built all these skills up. And just to take a step back to what you were just saying, Brian, I completely get where you're coming from. Man, you don't want to work for anybody else. I trust me. Man, I get that so much because I used to get offers all the time to produce other people's movies, and I would just say no. And when the people would ask why, I would say, because I want to make my stuff. I don't want to make your stuff.

Jake Jalbert 11:39
Isn't that? Isn't that. It is funny, because if we, if we got offered to maybe direct a big movie, we'd probably turn it down, because it's just like, I want to, we just want to do what we want to do, and for us, for us, it's doing our own projects, building our own empire, per se, yes, yeah.

Dave Bullis 11:56
And you know you want to, you want to, you know, people to make your stuff, because we're only on this earth for what? What, maybe 80 years, 90 years, I don't know, at the rate I'm going, I probably have about three more years. So anyways, but

Jake Jalbert 12:09
You got more net,

Dave Bullis 12:13
I tell you, some days I really wonder anymore. But anyways, it's all, it's all jokes, everybody. I'm not really like, you know, dying or anything, but, uh, but, you know, you know, as we talk about, you know, making all these movies and stuff like that, you guys have a piece of advice that you gave. And by the way, you guys doing Facebook video like promotions and Facebook videos, live chats. That's all genius marketing, by the way. So that's huge. And I don't see any other filmmaker, and I'm friends with a ton of filmmakers, believe me, I don't see any of them doing that stuff. I think you guys are really, like, ahead of the curve and doing that, doing that type of of, sort of, you're talking to your crowd, right? You know, directly, you're talking to the people that like your Facebook page. You're talking to people inside the Frugal Filmmaker page, and you're talking to them directly. And it becomes, it's based what I think that is, by the way, is what Google Hangout was trying to be, but they just couldn't get it right, and Facebook just copied it and just said, Hey, you know what? We can do it better anyway.

Jake Jalbert 13:17
Yeah, yeah, I agree with you. Yeah. It's just seeing around corners. It's seen around corners before anybody else, and that's how most people excel further. That's how Robert Rodriguez, did you know,

Dave Bullis 13:19
Yeah. And so one of those video chats, you guys mentioned making a movie for 1000 bucks, which I, by the way, think is, is terrific advice, because I have seen too many people, and I'm sure you have to where they want to make a movie, and maybe whether their first time filmmaker, or maybe they made a few shorts, and all of a sudden they're trying to either raise like, 10,000 50,000 100,000 or more to make a film, and they don't have the experience to really utilize that budget, you know what I mean? And they so they end up spending money on the wrong things, or they they just completely end up just, you know, just destroying the the whole budget, because they just don't know how to handle it?

Brian Jalbert 14:01
Yeah, I agree. 100% man, just to put it in perspective, too, we went to the the AFM, right? So we're there, and we got a buddy there, and then we met this other gentleman. So there's two different budgets. I should say here. One was under 10,000 I'm not going to say the number, because it's, it's around where we're at, what we're talking about, but I don't want to completely throw it out there. So under 10,000 and then this other gentleman made his for around 500,000 Okay, and the two different comparisons is crazy. The other guy that made it for five had no experience, didn't get the right talent on board to make it happen. Okay, because it was his first time, and he actually blew money. That was kind of an inheritance. So it just the problem is he could have took that made a even a $20,000 movie, and did so much better with it, versus the guy that made it under 10. Is got the sales agent. Got it released, and is going to, is going to get a release in theaters. So it's having it's It's realizing that take your first one, give yourself a budget of 1000 to 3000 because we could all work for a year and save that. Okay, have a script that's simplistic. It may not be your ultimate script, but have it creative. Everybody talks about being creative, but nobody's really creative. They throw money at it. Don't throw money at your problem. Create. Be creative with it. So if you do make a mistake and you screw up on your first one, you will screw up. You will if you make that mistake and you screw up, at least it's not somebody's 100 1000s that they gave you. Or you raised through your family, and you went to all your uncles, and your your your parents and everybody, and then you raised 50 grand, and then you don't get the right or you get a name on the box that's maybe diluted because you didn't know his name was diluted, and you can't sell it because they already got their movie for the year that has that actor in it. You know what I'm saying. So it's, it's having an understanding of the market, what's going on, what's your budget. Keep it simplistic. Be creative, and you might end up with a freaking you might end up with a winner, or you might end up with a dud, but at least you did it, or that experience,

Jake Jalbert 16:15
Or it might take you 20 years. You just don't know. But the biggest hold up, I think, filmmakers have is they think they need, especially new ones that don't know much about it. They think they need millions or or 50,000 like you don't. You just need experience. So go one location, one actor, write a script and just go make a move for 1000 bucks. And people, we get a lot of flack for that. People don't like that. Half the people like it. Half people don't like it. But it is what it is, and it's it's getting those kids that wouldn't know what to do to give them some hope that, oh, I can go make, actually make a film and maybe meet a connection that leads me to this door, to that door. So it's opening doors. Don't sit around and wait for the 50,000 just go make it for 1000 and then eventually that 50,000 will will come knock the money. You'll get the money when it's ready. I feel,

Dave Bullis 16:32
You know, it's also when people look like, I'm sure every filmmaker, in one way or another, wants to emulate, you know, the guy, the people that they they look up to as their heroes. The problem is sometimes, if let's just use Chris for Nolan as an example, you know, if we wanted to emulate him, you know, we couldn't do an inception, because what was that like? 100 million? 100 50 million. But if we looked at following, and I don't know if you guys have ever seen following, it's actually a really cool movie that Christopher Nolan shot, and it didn't cost him a lot of money at all, and it really just and then that's what set him up to make memento, which was what he was trying to make to begin with. But he couldn't make it because he couldn't get the budget. So he made following instead.

Brian Jalbert 17:41
Makes sense. He put his ultimate script on the back burner to get one done and show what he can do. I think that's the key. Show what you can do, like, if you can't. You know, people think if you get money, you're going to make a great film, if you and don't get me wrong, there's people that if you hire the right people in every spot, and you're the director, and you actually don't have the ego, and you're able to listen to what everybody's saying and adjust to the situation. You got the money? Yeah, go ahead, you know what I mean, you'll have people backing you up, and you'll learn a lot doing it. But for us that don't have that, we don't have the connections, we don't have the big bucks, and we weren't able to raise the money. What do you do? Do you sit around? No, you got to get off your ass. You got to go make something, I mean, and that's just what we did. And that's why we talked like that, because we're like, Dude, we made our first movie on three grand, you know what I mean?

Dave Bullis 18:34
Yeah and, you know, I think you also said it too, Bry, or maybe it was you Jake on one of those Facebook chats. You know, you have to, you have to show what you can do for nothing, because anybody can spend money. And that's so true. I mean, that kind of hit me, because I'm saying sit there going, you know what? That's that's the truth. You have to be able to show that you can not only take, you know, maybe your cell phone or a lower grade camera, that maybe is in 4k or whatever, right? But you can make something. But you have to be able to show you you did the hustle or whatever, because you want people to look at that movie and say, Hey, Jake and Brian, how the hell did you guys shoot this movie? And then you tell them, Oh, we did it for, you know, 50 bucks, or 100 bucks or whatever, 1000 bucks, they go, how the hell did you do that for that little amount of money?

Jake Jalbert 19:18
I mean, how, how could you not do it for that kind of money? Like phones are almost like the 4k thing, like, if you have the budget cool, but if you're trying to shoot something super high quality, but you don't know what you're doing, it just turn it just looks really bad, like you have a better chance of using a phone and making it as it's a phone, and shooting something that's really super creative, that's more interesting to me, and something that you could possibly maybe release on Facebook and build a name for yourself. You know that that would work so much better I feel, than trying to polish something when you when it's like it just it won't look right, trying to polish something with something that's not polishable. If that makes any sense,

Dave Bullis 20:09
Yeah, that makes perfect sense, because, just as a food for thought type of experiment, if somebody listening to this, what advice would you give them if they said they wanted to make a movie this weekend, just as, like, a short film, or not even this weekend, but like, you know what I mean, like, actually planning something, you know, would you say, utilize, like the living room that you have right now, your house you live in right now, or, or, and then just, you know, film on your phone, something like that, just to, just to sort of get your, sort of, you know, get your feet under you as a filmmaker, and then just sort of go from and then just see what you made, and then sort of go from there.

Jake Jalbert 20:43
All right, so let's put in perspective, like me and Brian are gonna make a film. What do we have access to right now? We're in my apartment. Okay? We know we have our apartment. We know we have each other. We can work with each other. What cameras do we have? Do we know anybody with cameras? Do we know somebody that can run a camera? If we don't, you know what, let's just have fun and maybe use our phone and actually create something on our phone. We have Brian's daughter here. Maybe she can act in it, you know. So just, you have to just utilize what you have. Don't try to, like, write what you want, because right now, it's not about what you want, it's about what you have, if you don't have a lot. So that's what I would say. What do you think Brian?

Brian Jalbert 21:20
Yeah like, our first movie we did in two locations, and the intro scene was maybe, like five minutes, and then the rest of it was in one location. It was in a house, and it was a slasher, you know, it is what it is. It's it's not perfect, but it's ours, and we made it and we released it ourselves. And, you know, we got a little bit of a name talent on it, and we had fun with it, and we learned a lot. So I suggest that, yeah, look what you got. What do you have access to be creative and and have some fun with it. You know,

Jake Jalbert 21:54
I would focus on more what you have around and then what you because most people focus like, I don't have a camera, or I just don't have this, or I don't have that, like you have a phone, because you're obviously watching our lives, or you're watching stuff on a phone. So a phone's good enough. I mean, just maybe spend the money on a good, good sound, yeah? Because I think that's key, yeah, good sound. And maybe phone quality would look it would be interesting if you can come up with something clever. I can't tell people what to come up with, but coming up with something cool, could you could do some damage with something like that, I think, because that's where it is now, it's all phone and people are going live. So, you know, we might do something like that. You know, eventually, someone better do it soon, because it's the new it is what it is, what it is right now. So to capitalize on doing someone maybe Snapchatting all day would be cool. I would more or less watch that than trying to watch a drama or something like that. Would be that is the thing. It already has a it has a marketed fan base. Has a marketability, marketable. You can say this is my snapchat movie. I'd be like, Oh, let me check that. Seems that's different. So I would think outside the box if you really want to make something that's going to leave an impression, if you just want to go make something, just go make it. But yeah,

Dave Bullis 23:07
Did you guys see the that movie? It was like a well, it was a short film where it took place all within a person texting her friends. It was just basically the actual they screen capped her phone, and the whole entire movie was, was literally, you just saw her the screen there her phone as she was texting people back and forth.

Brian Jalbert 23:28
I did not see that. I'd love to see that. Great. That's awesome idea.

Jake Jalbert 23:32
That's what it that's what it is. You know, that's what it is. Like we, we wanted to make something, and we came up with, what do we have? We don't have a c1, 100. And we want to do this show, a TV show, you know, called haunted tours, that we're putting out, actually, next year, next month, um, and we kept it very simple, you know, very simple. It's very dark, very real. It's just us. It didn't take a bunch of money. Yeah, we go in there and we investigate low locations. Now we're not the investigators. We got other people on board for that. We and we were able to shoot five episodes. You know what I mean? So it's, it's just creating. I mean, that's the biggest thing. Once you create, you'll get better, and you'll learn from it, and you'll make mistakes, and then you can create again, and you keep creating, and before you know it. I mean, you're, you're doing it, and you didn't pay, did we? If we, if we didn't go live on Monday, you would have never seen us, and you would have never, you know, we might have not been on your podcast, you know. And for us, this could lead us somewhere. This could lead us somewhere good. Or you just don't know, you know, you just got to, just got to do it. I would say, Just do it.

Dave Bullis 24:35
Yeah, you never know where, what door you open, and where it's going to lead into. You know. And I found that out too, because even starting this podcast, for instance, has led to so many doors being opened that I wouldn't even have thought about, you know, when I started this, what, three years ago, or whatever the hell it's been, but, I mean, it's just been a lot of interesting stuff happening and again, you know, I mean, even when I've done like, my stuff around the area. This Philly area, just doing things, you sort of become, I don't want to use that word, an attraction, but you know what I mean? It's kind of like that book The Secret where you kind of, like, attract things, you know what I mean, where it's like people see, actually doing stuff, and all of a sudden they go, oh, I want to talk to that person, because it's they're not just talking about it, they're actually doing it. And I remember, I forget who it was, who gave me this advice when I started years ago. But he said that there, if you actually make something, you're not normal. Normal is sitting on your couch talking about making something

Brian Jalbert 25:33
That's so true. Man, stealing, bro, yeah.

Dave Bullis 25:42
And so again, I love that advice, by the way. You know, just finding out what you have, instead of thinking about the negative, which is what you don't have, you think about the positive, which is what you do have, and you do have access to. And sometimes when people start brainstorming things like that, they start getting bigger ideas. You know what I mean? They start thinking, oh, you know what, I forgot I had access to this. Or, hey, you know what, we can go down to the park and shoot this scene, because it's a public park, and, you know, we can go off to the side there, and, you know, stuff like that, where, you know, you start, you start actually working as stuff starts flowing a little better.

Brian Jalbert 26:16
Yeah. I mean, you get so much, the thing is, like we said earlier, building your skills, because you get so much knowledge of how is and then, and then, one thing to do, too, is, you know, go on a couple sets that are local that, you know, got some name talent on, and learn, watch how they operate, you know. And then you can help operate your set, like that, you know. So, I mean, that's, that's ultimately too, just just watching, learning,

Jake Jalbert 26:36
Getting in the it's getting in the mix. You know, when we do those lives, we get in the mix. It's like we're, we're we're online, networking with other filmmakers, sharing our advice, hoping to get other advice back. Because we're always learning. The key is always learn. We we like to mix filmmaking with business, because it is ultimately a business, and if you don't understand that, that part of it, you have to either get somebody who understands it, or, I think you'll be doomed unless you're super creative, that someone just grabs you up. I think nowadays you need to know the whole aspect of it. You need to know business, sales, marketing, it's all relevant. Now you need to know it.

Brian Jalbert 27:14
Because the biggest thing too, if you look at it, like when Rob Rodriguez made it, and in Quentin Tarantino, it was a different error, like it was a different time, you know what I mean. So now it's a different time. So who's going to be those guys that break out through a new technology or a new way? And they're they're reinventing, not reinventing the wheel, but because, if you look at it, everything that we're doing, like right now, this is like radio. You know, when we're on Facebook Live, that's like TV, but it's just a different way of bringing it to an audience. You know what I'm saying? So I think that's the biggest thing is, is finding out how to do it and take capitalize on it and see what happens. That's that's all we try to do.

Dave Bullis 27:55
Yeah, you know, that's a good point, by the way, because I mentioned that too before in past episodes. You know, you had the 90s, and you have Tarantino and Smith and Rodriguez, they all came up, and they sort of became the new celebrity director, replacing the ones in the 80s, like your carpenter and, you know, and you have all those directors. They have the 70s directors like Spielberg but and Scorsese. But what happens is, with today, you don't really see that celebrity director anymore. You don't really see that. And you kind of look at to see who, what people are really making films from our young, from the next generation, the next generation. You see like, okay, Damien Chas a James Wan, you know, you have guys like that, but you're like, but they don't really, they're not really that celebrity director type where people would notice them, unless they're in the business like us, who would notice, you know, who would say, oh, that's, that's, that's them, you know, you know, you know what I mean. And that's why I kind of think that if you look towards like, what YouTube is doing, if you look at the top YouTubers, I mean, you've got, like, PewDiePie, you've got, you know, like, what's that other guy's name, Logan Paul, you got all those guys, and they're just doing like, like skit stuff. And I'm always wondering if you had somebody like that who actually made short films or something like that, who was actually a celebrity of that level on a particular social media channel they could capitalize on it and have almost 100% of the marketplace.

Brian Jalbert 29:16
Yeah, I agree so much too. Like nowadays, they don't want to be celebrities or stars. They want to be beauty. It's like, you know who I'm surprised, who's never, I don't think I've ever seen him do a feature, is Ryan Film Riot. Film Riot. I think he has, like, one biggest chances are a good audience of people to actually make something really cool, like a feature, and actually get some bugs behind it.

Dave Bullis 29:45
Yeah, I know Ryan coo from no film school. He's been making his for a while, but yeah, I know a lot of these, these websites and stuff. You kind of wonder why they don't have somebody try to capitalize on that.

Brian Jalbert 30:05
Yeah, I don't know. Man, I don't know. But I agree with you 100% man, I think, I think somebody, you know, somebody's got to be that breakout. And you know, the new way of doing it. I think it's experimenting.

Jake Jalbert 30:18
Yeah, I think most of the filmmakers get caught up in the old ways, like we were just talking about. So if you hone in, you capitalize on what is now, which is social media, I think you will win,

Dave Bullis 30:31
Yeah, and also, too, with social media, that's how you pre, you know, pre sell your crowdfunding campaign. That's how you get you meet other filmmakers, you network. Because I always tell people, and I didn't even ask if you guys went to film school, but, I mean, that's what I tell people, because I've actually worked at a college, and I've actually, you know, I've graduated from college too, and it's just like, you know, nowadays, I would just if I was graduated from high school, I wouldn't even bother with it. I would learn on Udemy and network wherever I need to go to meetup.com Look at meetups in my area. I'd go on to Twitter or LinkedIn. You know, I go to YouTube. I mean, you know what I mean? It's so many avenues. And I'm like, why would you spend $200,000 to go to college? I mean, you know what I mean? It just, it just doesn't seem to make any sense to me.

Brian Jalbert 31:17
No, no. I mean, to be honest with you, we're both high school dropouts, man, I dropped out at 15. I'm just, I just never liked, I guess you could say I'm just kind of a rebel dude. I just never liked system. I've always kind of liked to go my own way. And I think that's what filmmakers are missing nowadays too, is go your own way, like, Don't I know everybody wants to go to the theater and you want to get a distribution deal with Sony and all this shit. Well, what's the, how can we capitalize on what's going on? They'll come, you know, they'll come knocking at you when you got something hot. So if you can make it hot yourself, like, that's, that's, ultimately, that's all it is. You know, like people you want to, if you get a name talent in your movie, like Tom Cruise, you're just helping out with less marketing in the back end, you know what I mean. So do a movie, if you're going to get a budget, you do a movie. Say you do one on 20 grand, shoot it on 10, and then use the other 10 for marketing and use it and get it in a genre that sells without name talent. You know what I mean. So I think it's being creative and trying different things, you know,

Dave Bullis 32:24
Yeah, yeah. And, you know what, the whole the idea of college true, just to go back to that real quick, you know, is, it's about education, like we said, about learning skills. You even mentioned you could go on to other crews and stuff like that, other other sets in the area, and learn, you know, these same skills, rather than, you know, paying money. I mean, I had a friend of mine. He actually went to NYU, I think it was or NY film school, and he actually ended up the senior thesis project, and this is where he dropped out. And said, you know, what the hell is the point of this? He actually said, they the top, like five projects were chosen, and then you had to work on that person's project. And he said, so I'm going to be paying like, you know, a couple $1,000 to sit here and hold a boom pole for somebody else. Like, what the hell is this?

Brian Jalbert 33:09
That's crazy. You're better off taking, you know, like we said, Make, take 1000 to 3000 F film school and go make a feature.

Jake Jalbert 33:19
That's your film school was a business. They want your money.

Brian Jalbert 33:23
University is just a business in general. I feel, to be honest with you, I feel like all school in general, unless it's to be like a doctor or a lawyer and things like that, it's all there in place as a business, you know. And I understand it, you know, some people learn that way, but me, personally, I don't learn like that. Like I like to get my hands dirty. I like to get in there. You know, Jake's the same way we learn by doing not so much like reading a book, you know. You know, maybe that's because we're dropouts and we're not very smart. You know, we learn a different way. You know what I'm saying?

Jake Jalbert 33:55
I mean, we learn that. We learn a lot more now than we we ever have. You know, we went to the 10x growth con early this year, we went to we went to the AFM. So we're always getting knowledge and in trying to find different mentors and things like that, and that's key is finding people who have already done it and walk those that path,

Brian Jalbert 34:18
And then at the same time, too, maybe we don't have to follow their path, because I think in filmmaking, it's one of those things where, if you talk to everybody that's made it, there's usually, like, they just, it's a different path for the most part. Like, you know, they knew a friend of a friend, and then they did something, and they directed it, and then it got picked up, or, you know, they had a script, and then, like, like, in, in Quentin's case, he had a friend that knew Harvey Keitel, and they liked the script. And he was a writer at first. And so, I mean, I think everybody's story is going to be different, but it's finding your story, like, how are you going to make it? And only way you know, the only way you know that story, is by just going on. That journey and figuring it out as you go. I feel, you know, look at what other people have done, take it in for yourself, adjust with it, and see how it can work for you. Because nobody can tell you how to do something, because you're going to have your own ways of thinking. I feel, you know,

Dave Bullis 35:16
Yeah, absolutely, hey, and you mentioned growth con, by the way. So I wanted to ask you about your impressions of growth, of the tax growth con, actually. And a side note, I'm actually talking to Grant Cardone to have him come on this podcast. So it's kind of interesting. We tie this in, but so you guys went through the tax conference earlier this year. So So what were some of your impressions you took away from it?

Brian Jalbert 35:40
I mean, I loved it. I mean, the biggest thing I learned was these guys that make it successfully, they just do it, and they believed in themselves enough, and they took some risk and calculated risk, and they just went for it. And sometimes you failed, but it was not so much of a failure as it is, of a learning curve or, or that, hey, that didn't work, but that worked in it. So let me try that with this, you know. So, I mean, that's one of the biggest things we learned, and that I learned. And one good thing is, too, is networking, man. I mean, we met a really good connection. One of the speakers there, that's, that was the only guy that was the TV guy. We met there because we just went and took a picture with him, talk to him. And now we've got a direct access to television. So it's just, it's just doing, being, being present, you know.

Jake Jalbert 36:32
And we put a lot on the line. We spent a lot of money. So I would say, you know, we just went invested in ourself, same with AFM, we spent a lot of money, you know, that's the only way.

Dave Bullis 36:47
And and also AFM. What was your impression of that? Because I know you mentioned Jason Brubaker. He's a mutual friend of both of ours. You know, he's actually been on the podcast before as well, but I know he usually goes to AFM. So what were some of your impressions from this year's AFM?

Brian Jalbert 37:04
Um, you know, I like the AFM. It's the old way of doing things to where you, you know, you're meeting with fires and you're meeting with filmmakers and things like that. And I think it's great for networking. You know, I met like 50 connections while I was there, I met a lot of buyers. We didn't do any deal. We'd ended up not not doing a deal with, with some of our stuff. But the point of it was, was, was getting our feet wet within where we ultimately want to be, and that's as a distributor in studio to you know, be able to produce, be able to distribute and be able to get something out there to buyers, or whether it's self distribution in whatever way. But I love the AFM man, learn a lot.

Jake Jalbert 37:51
And I would say FSA, if you're not willing to take risks, big risk, then it's gonna be super hard for you. Like, we took a big we took a big risk. We went as actually, we didn't go as attendees, we went as exhibitors. So we had, like a booth, and we had about, like six or eight movies that we took with us, and just, yeah, just did it.

Dave Bullis 38:12
So, like, what were some of the did you get a lot of feedback on those movies?

Jake Jalbert 38:16
Yeah, we realize what is good, what people want. I mean, you. So you spend years on this movie. You love this movie. You You just, this is your baby, right? And you, you're like, hey, all right, I'm gonna show you this trailer, and you don't tell them. You, they don't know you made it. You're just like, All right, here it goes. They're like, No, no, no, no, no. Like that. So it's like, it's not about how good you think your movie is.

Brian Jalbert 38:40
It's like, is there a market for it? If there are people going to buy it, are they going to pick it up? You know, it's, it's freaking it's, it's very eye opening in the way of you are not going to know exactly what that's that's why a distributor doesn't know what's going to work. That's why they pick up so many movies. Because why you don't realize

Jake Jalbert 39:01
Giving MGS unless there's, yeah, they don't, but Reynolds on it, or somebody big,

Brian Jalbert 39:05
They don't know what's going to hit. And that's why you know when that when a buyer walks in, and that's the biggest thing too. It's having relationships with the buyers already built. You know what I mean? So if you don't have these relationships with the buyers, you're walking in kind of cold, because now they're just looking at your product, and they really don't give a shit about you. It's more about the product. Anyways, if you have that warmth within they already know you you can do some deals. You know what I mean? So it was ours, more of a bus just jumping in head first and seeing what we find. And you know, there's no right way I feel like to do things. You just got to do what works for you, and that's what we did. And learned a lot. Jason. Jason was really cool. Got to meet him. Tom Malloy, who was kind of a, I feel like a mentor to me because I read his book. Years ago, bankrolled, which was really good, and duh, and dove, I got to meet dove Simmons. So that was three, three mentors that before we, you know, before we were doing it full time, to where we actually got to meet these guys, and you're respected because you're going in as a distributor. You're going in as an exhibitor.

Jake Jalbert 40:22
No, you put, they know, you spent money. Oh, yeah, you, you, you walk in and just try to get a free pass. It's like, Get out of here, dude. Like, you didn't put, you didn't put no money. I mean, one time, like, get out of here. You spent big money to be there. Like, okay, people take you more serious, and that's the key. Like, go all in and show people, like, I'm serious, even if it's putting up money, even if it's putting in like, tons of free time. You know, that's what I did when I first started doing video. I did a lot of cheap stuff, a lot of free stuff. I'll still do free stuff. And that's what it's about. It's about getting and doing and being out there.

Brian Jalbert 40:55
What's that's the big thing too, is what's the Win? Win? Like finding the Win Win within a situation, like, how can this person get what they want and we get what we want, and we all work together?

Jake Jalbert 41:06
Yeah, the win wins in life, right? The win wins in life.

Brian Jalbert 41:10
Everybody's trying to take a lot of times too. It's like, no, let's just, let's How can we both win? You know?

Dave Bullis 41:15
Yeah, no, I'm sorry did I just cut you off, Jake.

Jake Jalbert 41:19
No, no, you're good. Now you're good. Now you're fine. We'll see if you had any anything else to add to that.

Dave Bullis 41:25
No, I know what you mean. Because sometimes, when, especially when, even when I do this, like podcast, sometimes I talk to people and they want to pitch to come on the podcast, and it's almost like, well, what can I do for them? And I'm like, Well, I mean, come on here. They don't even know my name, then my name's in the freaking title of the podcast. Like, how the hell do you not know my name is Dave? You know what I mean? And it's like, they'll write, they won't even say like, Hey or Hello, or even though, they'll just say like, Yo, I'm the Bella blah, blah, blah, and I'm like, You didn't even say like, Hey, I enjoy the show. Or, Hey, Dave, this is why I want to come on. It's just like, just, let me bombard you with how cool I am day and so that I will be like, Oh, please, come on. Please, Jesus, come on. I mean, it's just, you know what I mean, it's just like, you have to be a lot more, you know what I mean. Like, look, you just said the win win. Because, I mean, you this is a win win. This podcast. Because you get something, I get something, we both win, and the listeners win too. So, you know, it's that this whole one sided thing where it's like, what's in it for me? And, you know, it doesn't matter if you get something, you know what I mean?

Brian Jalbert 42:28
Yeah, I mean, I totally agree, dude, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta, both work together. It's just working together, man. It's just, ultimately, what it's always been about and will be about IPO,i feel

Dave Bullis 42:41
Yeah, especially because, I mean, this is networking. You know, people hear you on the podcast. They reach out. It happens all the time. And I always encourage people when, when listeners want to talk to a specific guest, tweet them and tell them something about the episode, send them an email. Some people give out their emails. Send them a LinkedIn message, or whatever the hell, Facebook, whatever, you know, social media channels they're on, and just say, hey, you know, I enjoyed the podcast, and here's why, here's what I got from it, not just like, you know, hey, hey, listen. Can Can you give me this or that I had on Cassian Elvis, or it was, I always butcher his name, but I who is one of the top producers in the world. He's done Dallas Buyers Club. He just did mud bound, which is a, you know, up for a ton of awards, and it's on Netflix. And when I had him on, people were asking, like, Hey, could you, could you, like, introduce us to Cassian? I'm like, I don't even know who the hell you are. So how would I, how would I possibly do this?

Brian Jalbert 43:37
You know, it's funny, because we get that all the time where people are just like, hey, can you do this? Could you do that? It's like, hold on a second. First of all, the first thing you got to learn when you're pitching somebody is, you got to get to know them for a little second. You got to have an understanding of who they are. There's no reason for somebody else to give up their time unless you find out what the person's looking for, you know, you know.

Jake Jalbert 44:02
And this is why we share a lot of things about, about business and sales, because that is sales. A good book recommendation for that is how to win friends and influence people. It's about, you know, focus on what you know, who the person is, and don't try to take so much. It's that's all it is.

Brian Jalbert 44:23
It's like this too. Like, you know you're, you're hanging out, you meet this girl, and the first thing that comes out of your mouth is like, Hey, will you go home and sleep with me? You know what I'm saying? Like, it just that's not how it works. You know what I'm saying? You've got to, you got to build a little bit of a relationship.

Jake Jalbert 44:39
Every big connection that we've made, and that worked out good. We took years building slowly, you know, and it's always, what can I do for you? How can I help you? And from there, it led to, you know, different things, and we're still building relationships. And you need to ask that you. To ask them what you can do for them.

Dave Bullis 45:04
That's what I believe. Yeah, it's like I always say, when you're going to make a connection, offer value, kill with kindness and always be professional. And that first one is offer value, which is what can you do for them? And whether it's promotion on social media, like just retweeting something, you know what I mean, or even something similar, like buying, you know, saying, hey, look their movies coming out. You know, maybe I'll pick up a copy of it, or, you know, maybe I'll buy a shirt, or, again, a retweet. Cost nothing, right? So it's stuff like that. You know, you're actually building rapport with that person. And when you're doing in, you know, face to face meetings, like a networking event, that's the first thing you want to do is you want to do, is you want to say you talk about their stuff if you're introduced, you know what I mean, especially if you're going to ask that person for something. And when I see people just go up and it's like, hey, you know you're Hey, it's the gelbert brothers. Hey guys, listen, I'm gonna be making a movie soon. And you know, why don't you guys come on board and this and that? You're like, Well, wait a minute, we don't know who the hell you are. You know what I mean, or asking you for locations, or whatever.

Brian Jalbert 46:04
And then they go, and then you go, Well, what are you fully funded? They're like, Well, no, that's why we came to you. And it's like, dude, yeah. But first of all, give us a win, win. If you want us to produce your movie, you know, show the cash. Say, Hey, I've got 50 grand. I want to work with you guys on a movie. Would you produce it? Then you might have some, some, some wiggle room, or something, something to work with. We can go, Well, what are you trying to do? And maybe we can help you out. Because, you know, it's 50,000 you know, it depends on your script. You know what I'm saying?

Dave Bullis 46:32
Yeah, yeah. And that's also happened to me too, by the way, is the whole, hey, we want to get this funded. And I go, okay, you know, well that there has to be something in it for me now, because if I'm going to go and pitch your movie and look for funds and all this other stuff, you know, what's the deal here? And you know? And the cherry on top of this is the fact that I'll tell you a little story. Is one time I actually had a person come on who actually know we met years ago, and he wanted to come on the podcast talk about his latest project, and then wanted me to come on board as a producer and give him my email list and do all this other stuff. And when I when I said, well, well, what is my what's the contract for this? And he actually said to me, you wouldn't, you would want to get paid for that? I'm like, Yeah, I would have something involved in this. I don't want this isn't a charity case. Yeah, man, I agree 100% with you. Man, what was, as we talk about sort of this crazy stories and stuff, what were some of the crazy stories you guys have about just being pitched?

Brian Jalbert 47:33
You know, I haven't had anything too crazy pitched wise. I mean, I've had people, you know, that pitch you, but it's just the way they go about it is just totally off. One of the ways that I pitched, and that's worked the Burt Reynolds movie that I was able to be a part of as a first ADM producer, like that connection took me two years before I was able to work with that person. And it was more or less of those little things that you do in the beginning,

Jake Jalbert 48:00
Slow baby steps. I'd rather tell them, you know, what they I think, you know, work for us, than tell them what, what not to do. So yeah, IPA on a set, and they, you get a call sheet. And, you know, I had bigger dreams of doing bigger things. So I took the call sheet, because there's big producers and stuff on there, and I held on to that call sheet and found out who the producers were, and just, you know, let my presence be known. Cool, cool movie. You did a great job. Everything was awesome. Was nice meeting you. That was it. I think, like, a year later, we end up going to the premiere of the movie and saying, Oh, hey, you know, I'm Jake, and this is Brian. Great movie. You did a great job on this. And then another, you know, six months go by, and hey, can you check, you know, take a look at my trailer. I just need some expert advice. You did a great job on your last film. It's just a minute, and then, boom, they give you some advice, and it's just slowly building over time, you know. And show them that you, in the meantime, actually do projects, but still keep, you know, it's, it's, it's doing the projects and keep moving forward, but slowly, you know, every now and then reach out and say, Hi, how you been and stuff like that. There's nothing wrong with that, but to just come off with the ass right away. It's not gonna, I don't think it'll work unless you're, you've already got, you know, unless you're somebody,

Dave Bullis 49:21
It's like, Gary V says you got to do the it's Jab, Jab, Jab, Right Hook. And those jabs are give, give, give, and the right hooks and ask,

Brian Jalbert 49:30
That's the new schooling, man. I learned everything from just watching videos like that, like, we love guys like that, just, I mean, because it's like, you know, I never liked reading so much, and I've read books, and it's funny, I've read more books when I was out of school than what I did when I was in school. And now I love like, I love podcasts, I love videos grant and all these guys like because there's something that they're doing. That led to their success. And if you can, if you can read between the lines, you know, and not so much what they're saying, but what are they doing, and then read between the lines of what they're saying, like, you can really become successful by following those guides. As far as, like, those guys are your mentors. Now, you know,

Dave Bullis 50:31
Yeah, mentors through books and mentors through podcasts, mentors through videos. You know, it's a wide, wide world now, right?

Brian Jalbert 50:38
Yep, I love it, man, it. And that's what's great about it, because I got people hitting me up from like, Nigeria and shit. Like, that's crazy to even think of. Like, we had these guys, you know, because we're pretty we're down to earth guys, and we had these guys call us from Nigeria, FaceTime us. And they're like, I'm like, holy like, Hey, what's up, man? They're like, Oh, we're from Nigeria. I'm like, holy shit. And we're talking a little bit, and they're, they were just calling to just because, I think they were just wanted, they seen our lives, and they were, they wanted, you know, they want to talk to us on FaceTime. And it's like, you know, it's almost like, get to the point, because they're just like, Oh, how's filming? And then it's like, well, you know, you calling about something, you just call it a chat. Yeah, it's finding out. But, I mean, it's just so cool that we can have people in all these different countries that we're talking to, like, just from our live video, we have a guy Anthony, who will probably listen to this, our buddy Anthony, who we met through Facebook Live, and he lives in Australia, and he's doing movies out there, and he loves the content. And we, we go back and forth, and his buddies were in at the AFM, and we were hanging out with his buddies. We have a video, one of our live videos, they're from Australia, and it's like, wow. Like, that's to me, that's awesome, and that's just like, so different.

Jake Jalbert 52:00
You know, we never had to leave the house to network, you know. So we, when we went to the AFM, we got noticed about five or a handful of people that seen our lives, because the fewer filmmakers, a big, big group,

Brian Jalbert 52:13
And people actually coming in our booth, like, Hey, where's the Jalbert brothers? And we're like, we don't even know him. And it's cool to be able to have that already established relationship, in a way, to where they feel like they know us, and it's like, oh, that's so cool, you know what I mean?

Jake Jalbert 52:29
And that's where the new future of everything is going. You don't have to go out and network and fly around. You can actually just do it over online, which is so great, you know. And that's what all these these these guys are teaching and actually doing. You know,

Dave Bullis 52:45
You know, when you mentioned that the Nigerians who called you, it reminds me, because sometimes when I used to get people coming up to me, no, no, they didn't call me. They those Nigerians that contact me are usually those princes who want money, that I just sent them money. But, but what people usually contact me? They usually want to just go grab coffee somewhere. And about a year or two ago, I actually just fully stopped it. So if I don't know you and you want to you say, Hey, Dave, can we go grab coffee? The answer is, 99.9% of time going to be no The reason being, it really becomes like, what can I do for them? And I understand that, you know, I, you know, I've, you know, I do this podcast, and I've done some really cool things. I've worked with M Night, Sham lines producer, you know, I did, I did my own TV pilot. I've done this, that and the other thing. But like, at the end of the day, though, it's like, I get it, trust me too. You feel like you have so many options. You get overwhelmed sometimes. But whenever I go to those things, it always becomes, it always feels like, what can I do for them? And it's always like they want to pick my brain about stuff. And then they go to this and that, and they get all downtrodden. And I go, I, you know, I just don't this is why I always have to have screeners of people. You know what I mean? Like I have to be if you come recommended, or something else, I'll talk to you on the phone. But the whole coffee thing in general, I'm like, I'm not traveling 30 minutes, you know, up to Philly, up to your north, or whatever, Philly, just to grab coffee with somebody. You know what I mean? I'd rather just do a Skype chat for five minutes. You know what I mean,

Jake Jalbert 54:16
Right! And they don't, and they don't know, you know, they they're like, they're in the weeds. They don't see it. So it's good that that people actually listen to this stuff and trying to get the knowledge to to become better. And that's why we try to preach a lot of this different stuff in marketing and sales and and really trying to expand filmmaking and show people like you got to open your eyes a little bit further than just filmmaking, because that's where the win, I believe, is, is, you know, being able to communicate, period, communication,

Brian Jalbert 54:46
Because, dude, like, I've made these mistakes, like, I've went up to people straight for the ass. Like, in its learning by, like, going, Yeah, that that didn't work out good. You know, in dissected, why did that work out? Good? Oh, you know. Because I'm too blunt. I came off that way. So you got to have an understanding of that. I think that's how we try to talk. To talk is like, Hey, this is what we've done. This is what we've learned. Hopefully it works for you. Some of it may not, some of it may. And, you know, have at it. Like, let's work together. Let's, let's make some, some fucking magic. Like, let's really make some magic to where the new generation has their voice, you know, and they do through Facebook and like podcasts and all this shit.

Jake Jalbert 55:29
So I would say a good way to just approach anybody, approach yourself, I'm sure approach us is just like, Hey, I heard your podcast. Awesome, man. The advice was absolutely amazing. If you thought it was amazing, um, you know, thank you for that. And that's it. And leave it, you know, leave it at that, at least for, you know, a couple weeks or whatever. Let it, let it marinate. Follow them. Find out what their interest and what they like and what's the win for them.

Brian Jalbert 55:54
Yeah, follow up is key, too. So if you do reach out to somebody, you know, don't be scourge. If they don't get back to you right away, like I've, I've been contacting this one producer over and over again, you know, every couple of months. Just build that connection. And I think that's key is just stay it, stay present. And when it works out, it will eventually, if you stay present enough, because most people want to see if you're willing to put in the work. I feel because, you know, they had to put in the work. You know, they're not just going to give you their whole email list or their whole world because you're asking for it. It's like, Well, dude, like I've spent like eight years of my life building this, like I can't just give you my the keys to my kingdom or to my building. Like I got to get to know you a little bit, trust you. Maybe we work together a little bit. And then now, yeah, this guy's cool. I can trust him with my keys. You know what I'm saying?

Dave Bullis 56:46
Yeah, I see exactly what you mean. And you know, it's all about, you know, building those relationships. And also, you know, building them, you know, just building the relationships, period, you know what I mean. And just, you want to, want to sort of build it in the right way, and and again. I mean, we I think I've done the same thing too. I've been there where I've just asked way too early, and because you jump the gun, you're like, Oh crap, I'm never gonna see this person again. What should I say? I don't know. Read my screenplay. You're gonna go shit, you know. And so if everyone listening, if you took any advice from from either Jake, Brian or myself, please, just, you know, tweet us and let us know. And And guys, we've been talking for about 55 minutes or so now. So just in closing, is there any anything you want to say Brian and Jake to sort of put up here at this end of this whole conversation,

Jake Jalbert 57:40
Go make something. Just make your fifth, make it. No, just, man, what we're doing, man, trial and error, dude. We, you know, we go do something and and, you know, you could call it a fail. You can call it we, you know, we tried, and then you try something else. You know, we're gonna put out this haunted tour show. Will it be a super success? I don't know. We're gonna do our best, right? We're gonna put everything we have into it and make it happen. If it doesn't do very well, fine. Figure this out. We'll figure that out. So the key is just doing figuring it out along the way, and it'll lead you to the places you probably didn't expect you might be. I never, you know, could never speak in front of people and, you know, but more you do it, it's weird. The more you do it, the better you get at it. And I've gotten a lot better. Actually, I can go in front of a crowd now, and actually, you know, speak, I still turn super red. I'm red right now. It's just like, you know, speaking. But you become better as you do. So that's why just make your first film. If you're first time filmmaker, just go make something and then reach out to us and say, Hey guys, I heard your podcast. Great job. And then, you know, build that connection with us, because we want to get to know you guys and send us your film if you have it, and don't go to straight to this end, though, you know, talk to us a little thing and get to know me. And then I would love to look at your stuff, you know, but don't just send it, because I don't know you, and that's weird, and I don't know what I'm looking at.

Brian Jalbert 59:05
So unless, unless you're asked to send it, you know, there's, there's times where we put out calls for scripts or whatever we're looking for on our Facebook page and things like that. So that's when you want to send it. It's knowing when to send it, when they're when, when the Win, win is in place. Hey guys, I'm looking for one location script. Oh, I got one. Oh, really. Okay, send it on over or, Hey guys, I got a movie that's finished. I'd love for you guys to take a look at it. Maybe you can distribute it. Okay, cool. Let me look at it. Take a look at it. Yeah, I love this. Let's distribute it. Hey guys, I got a movie. I've got some money. I want to pay you guys for your time, put you on as producers, and hire you through your production company. Awesome. Let's do it. Maybe we can come on and work out a deal to where we distribute it. So it's finding out what they're looking for, going in for the Ask the right time and and staying present with the follow up.

Dave Bullis 1:00:06
Yeah, you have to treat everything like a skill. And just That's something I've learned too, is you have to treat everything like a skill. You know, speaking in public is a skill. You know, doing all sorts, you know, being good at social media is a skill. All the different skills on the film set. Writings a skill. Pitching is a skill. The more I've learned about this stuff, the more I realized it's all about. If you treat everything like a skill and you have to get good at it, it kind of all sort of falls into place. You know what I mean, like you have to do it to get good at it, and the and you just have to do it, which is, you know, you have to have action, right? Yeah, at the end of the day, everything always involves action, just like a character in a screenplay. Nobody likes a passive protagonist.

Jake Jalbert 1:00:48
No, yeah. It's all about execution. Man, if you execute, if you search hard enough, you'll find what you're looking for. It just you got to search, you know, really, really hard

Brian Jalbert 1:00:57
And keep searching. Because, like Sean Baker, it took him, what, 1520 years. I think he said, Yep, exactly, and he wasn't. So now people think, Oh, the Sean Baker guy made it overnight. Well, dude, you don't know he's been doing it for 15-20 years, but you may end up like Robert Rodriguez, who first feature got some buzz going. You know, you just never know. That's why we say just start doing something and be creative.

Dave Bullis 1:01:24
Yeah, excellent, yeah, that's excellent, guys and and it's always good to keep things like that into perspective, because there is no overnight successes. That's the number one rule. There is no overnight successes.

Brian Jalbert 1:01:34
What are you talking about, man,

Dave Bullis 1:01:39
Guys, where can people find you out online.

Jake Jalbert 1:01:42
We stay on Facebook, at Jalbert Brothers, and Instagram, man, right now we have a YouTube, but we're more you know, Facebook and Instagram definitely follow us on Facebook and Instagram at Jalbert Brothers, yeah.

Brian Jalbert 1:01:55
And then they can check us out at jalbertbrothers.com too. And then it has all the social media sites from there as well.

Dave Bullis 1:02:01
Guys! Jake, Brian, I want to say thank you so much for coming on.

Jake Jalbert 1:02:05
Hey, thank you, Dave. Thanks for having us, brother. Appreciate the time.

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BPS 455: How to Turn a Script Into a Movie Without Hollywood’s Help with Chris Jay

January 22, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Every creative career has a turning point — for Chris Jay, it came when his rock band Army of Freshmen hit the wall of a collapsing music industry. Years of touring and chasing label deals ended with the rise of digital downloads and the 2008 financial crash, forcing him to rethink everything. Out of that chaos came a bold new pursuit: filmmaking. With no formal training, Chris and his bandmate Aaron Goldberg set out to write and produce a comedy called The Bet. They weren’t chasing approval from Hollywood — they were determined to make their movie, no matter the odds.

The idea for The Bet came from Chris’s own curiosity about reconnecting with old crushes from school and wondering how those stories might turn out decades later. The script, written entirely from scratch and formatted by hand before they even discovered Final Draft, became a crash course in DIY filmmaking. They didn’t have a studio or a rich backer; instead, they raised funds through family, friends, and a pair of theatre producers from the UK who believed in the project. That resourcefulness defined every part of production — from filming in Ventura, California, to juggling countless roles on set, from catering to prop design.

Chris and his team faced every imaginable indie film obstacle: tight budgets, long hours, and post-production delays that nearly derailed the entire project. Yet through determination, collaboration, and sheer grit, they finished The Bet, securing distribution on iTunes, Amazon, and cable VOD. The film also features one of the final appearances of wrestling legend Roddy Piper — a personal highlight for Chris, who grew up a wrestling fan.

What began as a long shot became proof that independent filmmaking still thrives on passion over privilege. For Chris Jay, The Bet wasn’t just a film — it was a statement of creative survival. It showed that even when the industry turns its back, you can still make something lasting with the right mix of heart, humor, and hustle.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:49
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:54
On this week's episode, our guest is the front man and founder of The Rock Band army of freshmen. He's an actor and screenwriter his comedy film The bet releases this coming Tuesday, July the 26th 2016 and it'll be available on everywhere we available on, you know, Hulu. It'll be available on Google Play Store, iTunes Store, Xbox, PlayStation, all that good stuff. With guest, Chris Jay. Chris, how are you Sir?

Chris Jay 2:23
Hey, thank you so much for having me, Dave. I'm very, very happy to be here, and I'm going to correct you right out of the gate. I definitely don't star in this. I don't think anybody would want or need that, but I did throw myself in there because I figured if I never make another movie again, I'll probably kick myself in 20 years if I can't show my kid like there's your old man, you know?

Dave Bullis 2:42
Yeah, well, I usually just say star. I mean, usually it's, I don't know what else, because usually saying that I don't know

Chris Jay 2:49
Real loose term, even when I find myself writing press releases for the film, it's like, Wait, who's starring, who's featuring, who's cameo. I mean, that shit is kind of out the window these days. I just think like you said, everybody just says, starring in, you know, it could be, could be the groundskeeper in the background. And like, Yo, he stars in the new Guardians of the Galaxy. You know, it's crazy.

Dave Bullis 3:09
Yeah, you always because, like, for me, I've always sporadically appeared in shows, so I never know what to say. I mean, do you say featured extra? Do you say, You know what? I mean, it's like,

Chris Jay 3:19
How weird is featured extra say, You know what I mean? That just sounds weird, like it's, I don't know, it's so funny all the terms, but you get all those head shots, man, um, I'll tell you, when we were cast in the movie, you'll get a kick out of this. It was a really interesting experience. But you look on the back of these resumes, Dave and some of these people, you don't know who the person is. You've never heard of them, but they've been on the coolest stuff in the world, like, Oh my God, you are on friends, and you're on Seinfeld and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then at the bottom, there's, like, a little note that just says featured extra, you know? It's like, wait a minute, you're like, an extra just showing up for lunch, which is badass, you know what? I mean. But it's crazy that you put this on your resume, you know?

Dave Bullis 3:57
Yeah. I mean, honestly, like, every, every acting thing I've ever done, I have been a featured extra and, like, always sunny, you know, I was in a and again, a pre interview. We're talking about NFL films. I was, I was in an NFL films commercial with some sites. So it's just weird, you know what I mean?

Chris Jay 4:14
So you're like me, like you're a jack of all trades, not really successful at any of them, but god damn it, you're out there doing something, you know,

Dave Bullis 4:20
Exactly you got it. Love it. I love it. So, So, Chris, just to get started, you know, I wanted to ask, you know about your background. I mean, obviously, you know, you're a founder of The Rock Band army freshman. But I wanted to ask, you know, how did you actually transition into, you know, the idea, you know, of getting into of the film industry?

Chris Jay 4:39
On, great question. Dave, so basically, super quick background, I am in the band, army of freshmen, and ever since you've been doing this movie, we've been on a bit of a hiatus. But dude, we've been around for like, over 15 years. I was born and raised in New Jersey, close to you, up in Media, Pennsylvania, where you're at and when I was 17, I left home and I moved by myself to. California to do the rock and roll thing. I mean, there was two things I love in my life. I mean, I always loved music and I always loved movies. Quite frankly, nothing else really interests me, period. I like wrestling, too, and boxing, but that's getting off off topic. But with that said, so I did the music thing. Man and army of freshmen was one of those bands that didn't blow up. We were always opening up for bigger bands, but we'd be like, the first band on the bill, like we'd come and play the Trocadero in Philly or the TLA, right? But we wouldn't be the band on the marquee. We would be the band that you didn't know that played first, right? And it was, it was awesome, man. We got to travel around the world. And, I mean, I put my blood, sweat, tears, heart. I spent my whole 20s and practically early 30s, doing army of freshmen. And right around the time that we were close to finally signing a major label deal in the late 2000s which in the old music industry, was like, you know, that was the goal, right? That was the goal. And dude downloading came, and it came like a violent, terrible, evil wave, and it literally destroyed bands of my size. We were the middle class bands, if that makes sense, you know, like we weren't the big boys, but we weren't the garage bands. We were just those hard working bands criss crossing the United States and Europe in minivans. You know, it was really honorable and noble, and you could make enough to maybe pay the rent and eat, right? But when downloading came and then the end, what the financial collapse in 2008 Dude, it just all went to hell. And you quick, you know, it was really, really ugly for the music business. And with that said, we were very close to signing to a major label, and the ANR guy that was ready to do the deal, literally, the financial collapse hit. They froze all signings for the year, right? So I'm like, Oh, my God, oh my God. What's going on? Literally, 30 days later, I called a check in to see how things are working and see if we could do the deal in January, something I had been working for basically my whole life, right? Dave, and the receptionist says he was fired, and there's nobody else to talk to. He was the only ANR guy that wanted us. So I kind of went through, I don't want to say, a depression, but I really had to take a hard look at my life. And I had always bounced around the idea of writing a screenplay, because I'm a writer like I would pay the bills, kind of doing freelance journalism for local newspapers and stuff, right? So I always wanted to write a film, just because I'm in, I'm in Southern California, right? Dave, like everybody, every waiter has got an idea for a movie, right? And I said it'd be fun to do, not even necessarily to make so I got with my partner in the band, Aaron Goldberg, who co wrote the screenplay with me, and I got in touch with a producer friend by the name of Reza riazi, who had produced one of our videos. And this is kind of like the key link here to the story. Reza kind of guided us along, so we were first time screenwriters, right? But he helped us. He kind of gave us just the, you know, just kind of the focus of what we're trying to do and trying to get across. And he kind of guided the screenplay, and we worked on it off and on for a while. We didn't sit down for like two weeks, Sylvester Stallone style, and Cram Out Rocky, you know, it was a work in progress here and there. We got to the point where we thought it was pretty good, and Reza thought the same thing, and we made the decision that I spent my whole life doing music, going in front of a Andr guys, you know, begging to get signed or get this or kiss butt, and giving demo tapes that I said, You know what? If we're going to do this movie, let's just do it right, like, no matter how much money we get, if we get $10,000 and we've got to turn it into a short film and shoot it in my garage on an iPhone, let's do it. Let's just not have anybody tell us we can't do this. I didn't want to be begging for people to read a screenplay, because think of that Dave, who the hell is going to read a raunchy comedy screenplay first time screenwriters. Oh, and they were in a rock band. I mean, that just sounds awful, like I wouldn't want to read that if that was the background and you gave it to me. So I kind of knew going in that we were going to have to do it on our own. And we set out at that point to let's make this movie. You know, Reza agreed to produce it, and he had produced some indie films before. So the good news is we had somebody helping us, and that's the key thing. I don't want you to think that we were just two guys from a band that just did all this. We had somebody guiding us, but there was no money. He just hopped on because I think at that point he had given us so much advice, he had taken a little sabbatical, because he had a film that really got taken from him and turned upside down, and he kind of moved into stand up. And I think this was an opportunity to like, Hey, maybe I can get back in the game a little bit, and let's find a young, hungry director. And that's basically the Genesis. I know that's a lot of backstory, but I think it's important to know, because we didn't come from movies at all. The closest we had to that was, I mean, I was an extra in one or two movies, a featured extra, right? And then also making our music videos. But that was it, man. I mean, we as screenwriters, went into this blind we just had that determination from the indie music world that we weren't gonna we were gonna do it, you know what? I mean, we came from a very DIY music background, and I think we sort of took the. His ethics, and put it into the film. So that's how we got to the point of, yes, we're making a movie, and there's a long backstory, and I'm sorry for that Dave.

Dave Bullis 10:20
Chris, everyone always likes to talk, and they talk a little more on my podcast what I'm trying to say. So please, you said you might ramble. Sometimes it's encouraged on this podcast.

Chris Jay 10:32
Well, you cut me off at any time. It's skinny, especially if you and I start talking cheese steaks. I mean, it's done. You know what I mean?

Dave Bullis 10:39
I completely understand, by the way. Speaking of cheesesteaks, what is your favorite cheesesteak place?

Chris Jay 10:44
I know this is sacrilege. Keep in mind, I didn't come from Philly. I came from Jersey, so I had to drive into the city. But pound for pound, I always like gyms on South Street.

Dave Bullis 10:52
Oh, Jim's is great. It's my second favorite place. What's your favorite my favorite place is John's roast pork.

Chris Jay 10:59
Oh, I've heard of that place. I've heard of that place. Is it that sensational?

Dave Bullis 11:04
Yeah, cuz it's different than all the other cheesesteak places. Once you have it, you really you understand what a cheesesteak is supposed to be.

Chris Jay 11:10
Next time I'm out there, you and I are going there. That's good. Just put it on the calendar.

Dave Bullis 11:15
Let's do it, man. It's right by the ECW arena, too. So you talk right there on a ship, Swanson and Redner. Right by Swanson. Oh, so you talk wrestling too, Dave. I'm impressed. Yeah, I could talk all day about professional wrestling before I got into film, I used to be a huge pro wrestling buff. Quick little mini, mini background. I don't want to talk too much about myself, but many, many background. Out of high school, I went right into, into pro wrestling school. I ended up working with King Kong Bundy and his promotion, and that was a whole, that was a whole adventure I could talk about hours about.

Chris Jay 11:45
So now, okay, we're getting we're veering far off track, but really quickly we'll circle this all around, because obviously there's wrestlers in my movie, so that's like, kind of like a connection. But um, did you ever get to have an indie match? Did you ever get to actually have a pro wrestling match?

Dave Bullis 12:00
I had one actual match, and that was really, where was it that it was in, I think was either Springfield or Exton Springfield or Drexel Hill. I meant it was a 20 man battle royal. It was all of the rookies of the school we were at. And that was my one and only professional wrestling match, because after that, I just wanted to get out of it, because I had to go to college, and my love affair wrestling was really, like, really burning out. And then basically, I still, if that's right around the time I ended up helping King Kong Bundy. So I had that match, sort of like, and I still had tons of contacts, and they were like, Oh, I hope you're not gonna leave. And I said, Yeah. I said, you know, I'm not six foot four, I'm five foot nine. You know what? I mean, I I'm a ginger who's gonna cheer a five foot nine ginger? Come on,

Chris Jay 12:50
Dude, that is too cool. But you got to say you had a professional wrestling match. I mean, like, that's a bucket list thing. I think for a lot of people myself included, that is awesome. Dude, that is so cool.

Dave Bullis 13:01
Well, thank you. I'll you know, if you ever want to talk about that, anytime,

Chris Jay 13:05
Kinetic energy here. We're both from the Philly South Jersey area. We both like Cheese Station. Both like wrestling. We both like movies. I mean this, this could get really awkward. Dude, by the end of this podcast, people are going to be like, disgusted, like these two guys love affairs. Ridiculous, man.

Dave Bullis 13:20
Well, most people tune me out anyway, so they're probably me too cool, man, cool. So, you know, just, you know, getting back to the back, you know. So I wanted to ask, you know, Chris, you know, where was the impetus of this idea to actually, for the screenplay? Like, did it? Did it come from, like a friend of yours? Or to come from an idea or a joke?

Chris Jay 13:40
It was an original idea that I had, and honestly, I think it was kind of inspired by the fact that being on tour in a band, right Dave, I got the opportunity to meet a lot of girls that I had gone to school with over the years, like, maybe, you know, you come to town and they live there, and they see that you're in town, and they come to a show, or you invite them, or we would go play in my hometown, in Cape May, a lot, where A lot, where a lot of people you went to school with still lived. And I was always fascinated to see where these girls that I had crushes on, where they ended up. And I don't mean that in a negative way, but just like man in the sixth grade, this girl was, you know, the hottest girl in school, or the girl that I just had a crush on, or wherever it may be. And you know what would happen if you met your crush 20 years later? Like, where are they? Who are they? And that kind of just kind of bounced around in my head, and at one point I don't have a eureka moment, or I remember it. I just always remember when I thought of movie ideas that that was at the top of my list, a guy gets in a bet where he's got to go back and meet every girl that he had a crush on in high school, because it's essentially just a fantasy that I assume I'd like to have. But the reality is, it's not going to be all good. Just because that girl was the cutest girl in sixth grade, she could be like, you know, a white trash drug addict. And I thought what would be funny about that premise is if the guy had to hook up with the. Girl, right? No matter what scenario she's in, he's got to bite the bullet and do so. And it just kind of sounded like it would be a good, fun, raunchy, wacky movie. And I just that was, that was the genesis. So I think it was kind of influenced by having met some of the girls I went to school with and being, hmm, geez, man, that was my crush. Glad that didn't work out, right? But at the same time. I think it lent itself to a good premise, and it, you know, just kind of once Aaron came in and we started writing it together. You know, that's the fun part about script writing. As much as you set it up, you go down different avenues with the script. The new characters get introduced, and things change. And I find that such a fun and fascinating process, how different the project is like. Because when you think about it, at first, because you're a writer, Dave, you know, you're a writer, Dave, you know, you see it just like this, word for word, and it's got to be like this. And these are the characters, and this is a story, but when you start writing that baby, these characters kind of take a life of their own and and even in a silly, raunchy movie like ours, directions, they start moving in different places, and, you know, motivations and scenes, and that's a fun process. I think it's really when you know, when you're just cooking with gas, and you really like where something's going with the script, that's a cool moment, man, that energy, if you can capture it. And I like writing with a partner, because I think you can really feed off people. I think it would be very difficult if I wrote a screenplay by myself, because you don't have that quality control the other person?

Dave Bullis 16:22
Yeah, you know, very true. And, you know, I, as I found, when writing, you know, sometimes I take it way too seriously, and it ends up I try to end up forcing things, you know what I mean, it's like. And then you realize you were supposed you got into writing because it's fun, right? Or you have something to say, or you want to explore something. You know what I mean. And you know that's why, you know, when you were discussing the idea creation and all these characters, you know that's what you need. You need to always, you know, be excited to come back to it when you because you got to write, you know, nobody sits down just writes out the whole thing in one, one fell swoop. You know, you come back and you write it in pieces. You know, you write three pages, five pages, and you got when you come back. You always have to have that excitement. And you know what I mean, you have to have that excitement of, okay, I see where it's going, what's going to happen now, I'm going to be just as surprised as the audience. You know what I mean. So when you were writing this, Chris, I want to ask you, did you buy any of those screenwriting books, like you McKees story or save the cap I play center? Did you buy any of those books?

Chris Jay 17:20
Umm, you know, I didn't, you're talking about the actual screenwriting books. Yeah, I didn't. I didn't. I didn't, um, it was very, I mean, and again, I think I'm a little spoiled because of the fact that I am a writer, you know. So not that I'm a good writer, but I just had experience writing, you know, even in writing a 500 world article about a band, you still have a beginning and a middle and an end. So I think I understood the process to the point that I didn't. I didn't it just seemed weird to read a book, to tell me how to write a book, if that makes sense, you know. But I definitely grabbed, you know, once we're getting ready to make the movie, I ordered a book online that was like the real truth about indie filmmaking, a complete guide from top to bottom right, that kind of deal, you know. And you'll love this. But, um, you know the book now, I keep it by the bathroom. It's like the bathroom read, dude, the thing was made, like, five years ago, okay? And as I'm reading it, getting ready to make the movie, just looking for pointers. You know, half the information was defunct, and the book was only five years old. Like they were talking about, like, well, this new Netflix saying, nobody's really figured it out yet. And, you know, they're talking about lonely girl 15 was an internet phenomenon. But how can you I mean, and I'm like, my god, this is garbage. I mean, things are moving so fast in the world of technology and film that a book, and a definitive book on the subject in 2012 is now literally archaic, and that's that's wild to me. So it's almost like, What the hell do you read? Unless you read the most recent stuff on the internet? I don't know if anything could really help you know,

Dave Bullis 18:54
Yeah, absolutely. I have tons of I know there's a podcast you can't see, but to my left is tons and tons and tons of how to filmmaking books. I mean, virtually, I have every indie filmmaking book, screenwriting book, producing book you can get. And some of them are just like that. They're just completely Hey, you know, go grab your friends, grab a mini DV cam, you know, shoot some stuff in your backyard, and you know, you can send it to festivals. Well, now I don't have to do any of that. I could use my could use my phone. I don't need a DV tape. I could, you know, and edit an iMovie, or edit in Windows Movie Maker or Premiere or whatever. When I want to, I can just put it right to YouTube.

Chris Jay 19:31
Wild, huh? I mean, the same thing happened with music in terms of how quick you can go like you and I. Right now, can make the decision to start our duo, right? We could write a song, not in person, dude, we could write a song over freaking FaceTime together, right? We could record the conceivably, record the song and release it and have a website up, you know, with a social media account with before, before the sun goes down and, I mean, I'm allowed to curse, right? That's fucked up, dude, that's process isn't supposed to be like that, like, where's the growth, where's the learning. And I think the same thing has happened to film, where it's certainly much more complicated process than writing a song, of course, no doubt, right? But everything that you just said, you can still kind of do, and that's awesome, but it's also that double edged sword of it's really flooding the market and putting a lot of crap out there too. You know, people are, they just release everything, instead of, like, you know, where's the days of kind of just making movies in your backyard and nobody sees them but your parents, and then you slowly grow and get better at it. Now, kids are making their very first thing and throwing it up on YouTube, hoping they get like a viral thing. I don't know. It's just, it just seems it's like it's a hard time for the cream to you know, was it the cream rise to the top or whatever the saying is, I just, it's just really muddy, man. Technology has made things so awesome. We could never make the movie that we made without it. But at the same time, I am also aware that there's a lot of films. Maybe some people would think our film that are being made, and it's almost, you know, blocking the path for other movies. It's a weird time, man, I feel like we're just living in a very strange age, you know?

Dave Bullis 21:10
Oh yeah, absolutely we are. And, you know, it's funny, because there's a short film called panic attack, and it actually, I forget the guy who made it, but Hollywood found it, and they actually gave him the job of directing the remake of Evil Dead, okay, just because of that. Wow. So it's almost like, now, you know this whole avenue of YouTube and podcasting and self publishing, it's like they're bypassing not just one gatekeeper, but like 25 because now you're almost like your own Agent Manager. Because now you can say, oh, no, I don't want to sell this, these book rights, or I don't want to sell your rights. I want to sell this, I mean, but you're right, there is, there are a lot more players out there now. But you know, I think that as long as you have something that is that can stand above anybody else. I had Paul pedito on here, and he when he and I were talking about that exact same thing, because he was always saying, you know, he tells his film students, you know, you have to make something. And they're saying, well, there's like, 10 cochillian things on on YouTube right now. And he says, you have, you know, how do you stand out? How do you get on the front page of iTunes? How do you get on the front page of Netflix? You know what I mean? And it's just all, and it just, it really depends upon what's hot, your concept, how polished it is. I mean, you have a lot of different factors. Now, maybe it's the same factors always have been there, but they're always but, you know, they're always have to sort of work out like in your favor, like we were talking earlier, but in the pre interview, maybe, you know, some guy, some some days, some guy wakes up, has a great morning, and all of a sudden your TV pilot gets made. You know what I mean?

Chris Jay 22:41
Yeah, and that's Wow, man. It's a depressing thought, but it's just, I mean, yeah, I certainly don't want to go down the negative Road, for lack of a better word, but I think it's a terrifying prospect. I mean, I used to, and I keep falling back on music, but that's just who I am. And I think what's happening to the film world happened to the indie to the music world about 10 years ago, right? But yes, I used to tell kids, dude, just get in the van. Man, just do it. Dude, just go for it. Just do it. You know, good, bad, learn, go do it, dedicate some time. And now I don't say that, and it really freaks me out that if a kid comes to me and says, we just started a band, what do we do? I don't tell them to hop in a van. Where they gonna go, where they gonna play, who's gonna give a shit, you know? And I wonder, in some ways, if it's that similar to the film world, you know, like if a kid right out of the gate wants to do it. I mean, it's probably not, you know, I don't want to say going for the big time the brass ring, but it's probably much more honing your craft on web series and smaller things instead of jumping right into it, you know, guns blazing, you know, I just it's strange man, you know, and I come from such a different perspective, because I didn't have that educated film background that somebody like yourself does. So I think some of the reason we got this made was sheer tenacity and dumb luck and a lack of education. Because I think if we knew what we were getting into and how much time it would be and how expensive it would be, we probably wouldn't have done it, you know, and that's kind of that sometimes being naive can lead to good things if you're willing to put the work in. You know, a lot of people, I think, took mercy on us, Dave, they were just like, you're doing what? Like? You can't do that. Oh, god, okay, well, let me help you. Good luck. Good luck falling on your face on this one. Good luck making a feature film. Come on, you know. And somehow we pulled it off, but we surrounded ourselves with good people to help pull it off. But, I mean, man, people heard our budget, and people hear where we wanted to shoot it in Ventura, not Los Angeles. They were looking at us like we were lunatics, dude. I mean, like, you know, what the cool thing is, we proved a lot of people wrong. We got it done, but it was a painful, long process. It was not smooth sailing, you know,

Dave Bullis 24:47
Yeah, yeah, definitely, it definitely. I understand completely where you're coming from. And, you know, just to sort of, as we're talking about writing the BEX, I do want to talk about actually making a move, but yeah, as we're talking about when you're writing the bet, did you guys actually. Did you use final draft or fade in to write the movie? Do you use any software?

Chris Jay 25:03
Check this out. We were so naive. Aaron did the typing. I did the talking. We didn't really know about Final Draft. We had heard of it. We were kind of aware what it was. And I'm sure your listeners will be like, Are you kidding me? We were literally indenting every time a new character talked, like, the first draft or two drafts that we did, we turned it into, you know, Reza, who was kind of helping us and giving us some guidance, who ended up producing the film. And he was like, man. He was like, There's something wrong with your final draft. And we're like, What do you mean? He was like, Don't tell me you typed this. And we're like, yeah, he was like, Oh my God, you know what? I mean, he was like, Dude, he was like, That's remarkable. He was like, how long did this take? And we're like, What would take hours, you know, we'd write it and then spend another couple hours, like, indenting, indenting, indenting, centering, you know, bracketing. I mean, it was trial by fire, man, if you can believe that we did get final draft, and it was like a whole new world, you know, like, it just changed. Everything. But you like, literally, that's how backwards where it was, like, Mick Foley writing his biography on on pen and paper, you know, it's like, there's something kind of cool about that, but I can't believe we did it. I'd love to get those hours of my life back, you know?

Dave Bullis 26:17
Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. You know, I know, like James Patterson and Quentin Tarantino, they still use, like, pad and pen. Wow. I still do it too sometimes. But now, you know what my the biggest con of that is, Chris is the fact that now you're ending up with like, notepads and, like, seriously, I have like, stacks of notebooks that I've been writing in, and I'm always sitting there going, you know, someday I'm gonna have to scan these things, yeah, yeah. And just, and just do away with it, because Evernote has changed my life, because I that's where I just, if I have an idea, I pull up my phone, go, okay, hold on. Let me just write this down real quick. Okay, so you know what I mean? I just type like that, and then I'll come back later on and put, you know, pull it all up, and then go, Okay, now I'll get into final draft or fade in, whatever I'm using.

Chris Jay 26:57
But do you wonder sometimes, I mean, not to get on a bigger, sort of like a deeper meaning. But, you know, do programs like that, have they have, they cheapen things a little bit. I mean, like, all the greats back in the day, they didn't have final draft, right? I mean, like, you know, when a guy like Mankiewicz was banging out Citizen Kane, he didn't have somebody indenting things for him. I mean, these guys are on typewriters, man, and then they bang scripts out. I mean, you just kind of wonder as much as it's made things easier, like, has it affected worth work ethic in a lot of ways, you know?

Dave Bullis 27:28
Yeah, you know, that's a good question. I want to say that. I hope it has just made it so they can concentrate, like guys like us, can just concentrate on the craft more without having to worry about stuff. Like, you know what? I mean, like, getting, you know, getting, you know, bogged down with that. I mean, technology, in of itself, is supposed to make things easier, like in the pre interview, we're talking about, if, when technology works, it's phenomenal. But that is good question. I mean, personally, I could never go back down to using anything else besides fine, yeah, so, I mean, like, it's if I ever had to go back, I would, I would probably, I don't know, take a header off the roof.

Chris Jay 28:04
Gotcha Understood? Understood you wouldn't be alone. Just be screenwriters. You probably live because you'd land on their corpses or something, you know,

Dave Bullis 28:12
Yeah, that's right with live because, like, somebody lived. James Patterson, when he does is he writes all longhand. He gives it all to a secretary. She put, like, types it all up, and then gives it back to him. And he has a problem. He has a process, and it's triple spaced, and that he can,

Chris Jay 28:26
If you have a secretary, you know, oh, yeah, aren't lucky enough to afford these type of things, yeah?

Dave Bullis 28:32
Well, yeah, that's what, that's what I was Gus was saying was, you know, he does have a secretary. I mean, that's why I think he can get away with it. And Tarantino, I don't know what he does. Maybe he has a secretary at some point.

Chris Jay 28:43
I imagine he's got a few at this point.

Dave Bullis 28:48
So, all right, so you know, we know you have written the bet. So I just want to take us through this process of, you know, you had the idea, you wrote the bet, you've actually got final drafts. You're able to actually correctly format it. So what was the point where you started pitching to people you know? Did and did you? Did you pitch to investors? Did you try to crowdfund this?

Chris Jay 29:08
Yeah, so, I mean, it's an important part of the story, and I think that's what people everybody's interested in that right? Where the hell you find the money? So when we decided to do it, okay, what we did, I'm giving you the step by step, we came up with three budgets. We didn't do one of these things where it has to be this amount of money, right? We came up with our bare bones, super backyard indie budget, right? We came up with, you know, our ideal budget. And we came up with something in the middle. And when I say ideal, we weren't asking for sick money, you know what I mean? We were saying, like, ideal for a micro budget movie. Okay? So we had these three different budgets. And basically we said, Let's initially go to some friends and family, like, you know. And again, we're not talking about all our, you know, broke music buddies, you know, we went to mom and dad, you know, aunts and uncles, um, Aaron and I, you know, literally pitched them personally. Couple people came in with just a little bit of money. We found a couple $1,000 to be completely blunt. And what we did, Dave, is we used that as seed money to try and find bigger money. And what I mean is, if you're trying to, let's say, take meetings, or you need to fly somewhere, or whatever it is, you need a little bit of money to do that. You know, a guy like me that works a part time job and is normally always dead broke, I don't have a budget to go if I get a meeting in New York, hop on a plane and fly out there. And then, let's face it, if you're meeting someone, you probably want to pay for the dinner, right? Want to pay for the dinner, right? If you're actually trying to get them to invest in your freaking film. So what we use that couple $1,000 for was seed money. And I mean that what we did is we printed pitch packs. We, you know, put a little budget for travel, we put a little budget for food, and we sort of use that for our money to try and find more money, if that does that make sense? So we didn't take the first five grand and like, Hey, here's our first five grand for the movie. We took it as almost our money, and I had to give ourselves a couple bucks, not to lie to you, so we could take a little time off work and actively take two months, right? And look for money. So that's what we did. And I think maybe that's a little different than most people, you know, because I think you know, because I think some people put the money away in the budget for the film, but then how do they, you know, how do they fly out to get that meeting? How do they do this or that? And I think talking to somebody in person is infinitely, always better when you're talking about finances, you know, you can look them in the eye. They can see your passion. It's, it's, real. It's tangible. You're dealing with the human being, you know. And this is what happened. This is how we got our executive producers. First off, luck is a huge part of it. But obviously, being an army of freshmen, right? We had, you know, a lot of connections in the music world. We were, I was friends with and very kind of casual friends, obviously now grown to be very close friends, but casual friends with two, if you can believe this, theater producers in the United Kingdom, theater. When I say theater, I mean theater, you know, like musicals, like shows, right? And I know that they have been friends with some other bands that I that I was friends with, and I knew that they were visiting the United States. And, you know, they kind of told me once, hey, if you ever have some projects going on, just keep us posted. You know, that kind of thing. But basically, I knew these were people that were open to the arts, if that makes sense, because they came from a theatrical background. So I reached out to them, because I knew they're going to be in the United States. I said, Hey, I'd have this project I love. This product I'd love to tell you about. They said, Hey, come on out. And this is completely true. And this is where I talk about the seed money. They were going to be in Disneyland, and I live in California, so they were going to be in the, you know, Disney, the Disney in Florida, right? So we took Dave, we took the last money in the pot, right? Bought a plane ticket, bought a cheap motel, six, got the cheapest rental possible, okay? And I flew out by myself because we couldn't afford to bring Reza or Aaron with me. That's the CO writer and the producer, and I met them at Disneyland, and I sat down over lunch at Disney right? And I told him what we were doing, and I told them what we were trying to do. And I told them we were looking for, you know, executive producers and investor for the project. And I gave them, you know, two budgets, you know, I gave them the, not the ghetto backyard budget, but I gave them our moderate and I gave them our ideal. And again, when I say ideal, it wasn't like, hey, millions more. I'm talking like, hey, another $20,000 or something, right? And they said, Okay, well, think about it. Thanks for talking to us. Blah, blah, blah. And then about two weeks later, I got an email saying that they're in. They were down to be the lead investor, you know, as long as we could find a couple other smaller investors to, you know, do it. And that was that we were off and running. And literally, that is the story of how we got our executive producers for the project. And I have to say this, because you just you got to plug the people to help you right. Their names are Craig beach and Theresa Beach, theatrical producers over in the United Kingdom and Dave. They were so awesome. Literally, I tell other people about our executive producers, and they're like, they start crying because they can't believe it, because usually the executive producers are hell, when's it getting released? When are we getting our money? What's going on? How come it's taken so long? Dave, we were doing a lot of first time stuff, and, you know, we're new to it. Like, I mean, a regular investor probably would have, I mean, probably would have taken legal action against us because things were taken so long, but we had such a limited budget, we had to go really slow to make things were right, and we were a small team, so we were very lucky that way. But I what I would have to say about that, if somebody is looking for advice, and man, how do I get my project filmed? Find a couple dollars and almost use that as, as I say, seed money. Use it as the money that you're going to use to try and find the investors, if that makes sense at all, almost like find a little bit of money just to be able to give yourself a month or two months to send emails all day and make phone calls all day and connect dots, like these are dots I wasn't in film, where I just called up a film producer, and they said, I want to back your movie, right? I was in music, and I knew somebody in music that had been involved in some musicals in the UK, so I knew they were involved in theatrical projects, right, as a bit of a relationship with them. So it was outside the box. And I think in this day and age, that's the only way to find money for film, unless you're one of the big daddies, and I may be wrong, but unless you're a big daddy, or unless your parents are filthy rich, which mine certainly are not, you have to think outside the box. You have to look in different places. So this small, tiny, micro budget, raunchy indie comedy essentially, was made and executive produced by two theatrical producers in another country. So I know that's a bit of a long story, but I just want to stress that if someone's looking for money, you've got to look in places where maybe people haven't looked before. Theater People help make a movie, as opposed to movie people that are bitter, right? And they've gone down that road, they know how difficult it is for indie film theater, people actually found it more fascinating than actual film producers who we met with that just rolled their eyes and said, Good luck.

Dave Bullis 36:31
You know, that's an interesting strategy, Chris, you know, and you know, I always am fascinated with how, you know, people have gotten their movie made. And you know, that is an excellent point, because you're right, you want to. I mean, checking out theater people. And you know what I mean, like, they're not this is, this is new to them too. You know what I mean? This is, this is still cool to them. And if you do get some film people, there's a lot of bitter, burned out people in the film industry, and they just sort of go, oh, another film. Blah, blah, blah. And that's why I try to be the difference to that. You know, I'm always trying. I always trying. I always try to stay upbeat and positive and, you know, and it's the same thing too, you know, for you know, everyone listening, if you're going to make a production staff or whatever crew you have, make sure that they all believe in the project and that no one is negative or bitter, because that that attitude spreads like a virus.

Chris Jay 37:19
It's death, it's death. It's absolute death on set. It's death in pre production, just because somebody's coup and just because somebody has great gear, just because somebody has good hookups or a good resume, I'm telling you, man, don't fucking work with them if you are indie. Find people that are hungry and young and they want to kill for it like you. It's just not worth it. I mean, I'd rather shoot on a lesser camera and have a DP that's thrilled to be there. You know, I'd rather have somebody that maybe is not on a TV show, and I found them in a theater program, but they're believing in that character. They're becoming that character. Because, dude, that jadedness is terrifying. And the great thing that we did one of the key things to get this thing done, because I'm telling you, we didn't have enough money to do it, Dave, and we didn't have enough Dave, we didn't have enough time to do it. We didn't have enough people to do it. But we got people that were stoked. We got our director, our producer, knew a guy that was doing a web series, right? Didn't go to film school, Director by the name of Ryan ederer, right, had never done a feature, had never done a TV show. We literally had just done web series, right? And our producer when he was looking for the director, for the director for this, went to see him work on a web series. They had mutual friends, and he said the director was holding the boom mic and shouting instructions, right, and also running to get coffee for everybody. And he said that's when he knew this could be our guy, right? Because he was so passionate right over a little web series that most likely, no one's going to see. How passionate would he be if he got to do a very, very small feature? So we met with him at a Denny's, right? You know, he actually reminds me of you, to be quite frank. You know, just because he's positive like that, and he just said, guys, if you let me direct this movie, all I want to do is direct a feature. He said, I will quit my job. I'm a waiter in LA I will quit my job for pre production and for the filming and for at least a solid month after done, I will live on nothing. You know? I mean, we gave him peanuts day, peanut everybody worked for so cheap on this, but I think it was we found the good people. But I also think they believed in my passion and Aaron's passion and Reza passion. I mean, when I hunted down some of the cast, which are some really super crazy, cool stories, but, dude, I was coming to them with nothing, but I was coming to them with passion. You know what I mean? Like, please, you know, you know, just like, let's get behind this, if that makes sense, and it appeals to a certain type of person. Not everybody. Dude, some people blew me right off, right? But you'd be surprised some of the cool little people you can pull because they're just good people. At the end of the day, it's getting to them, it's getting to them. It's all connections, and it's all How do you get to that person? You know,

Dave Bullis 40:07
Yeah, very, very true. And when you said you're he reminded me. He reminded me of he reminded you of me. I was gonna say, What is he a five foot nine ginger like,

Chris Jay 40:18
But he's a five foot nine from five foot nine kid from Chicago.

Dave Bullis 40:22
Aha, okay, yeah. I always like to, always want to ask, but no, but all kidding aside, though, you know, I agree completely. Man, you know, just going back to that, you know, having that passionate people, man, on set and avoiding all that negativity, because it is it now. It not only is a virus, it drains everyone's energy, and it also causes a lot more conflict with each other. And, you know, because I've been on those sets, Chris, you know, where all of a sudden, you know, someone comes in like, this is okay, I guess I want to be here. And then over then you have people who are just flat out like, oh, I don't, I don't want to be here anyway. This thing's gonna suck. Let me tell you about my let me I had a real quick story. I was on a film set one time, and this is years ago, when I was just was just goofing around making a student film, and I had this guy come on, and all he did, all this, he was, he's my director of cinematography, and he came recommended by this other guy I know. And all he did was tell everybody about his latest project. He could, you could not stop him from talking about it between takes. All he did, he was like, You know what? This reminds me of my movie, blah, blah, blah, Jesus Christ, Yo, I got it, dude, you're making a zombie film. Congrats. Congratulations. You know, there's 25 trillion of them. You know, you can add you were still on other projects.

Chris Jay 41:33
And instead of working on that project, all they do is talk about their project. We had somebody like that show up, and I won't get into any details beyond that, but it was just like, Dude, you know, it's kind of like he was kind of driving the director nuts because he kept talking about the project that he was working on. It's like, Hey, man, you know, like, that's awesome. Dude, stoked to help you. But we're fucking, you know, we got a day left of filming here we, you know, we are making the tiniest movie of all time. Like, we don't have time for this. Like, we'll just stay on board here, man, call next week and we'll talk about the zombie movie, you know,

Dave Bullis 42:01
Yeah, yeah, exactly, you know. And it's like, if they had played their cards, right, they could have had an ally, instead of just, you know, boring everyone to death, just going, Hey, man, by the way, my own movie, like, we got it, yeah, you know, we got every you know, you know what I mean. So

Chris Jay 42:14
When you're on set, you know, do the job that you do, try and make connections, but, but, but work hard on the job you do, because that's what will really come through, especially in the indie setting. And I'm telling you, Dave, there's so many good things aligned up with this cast and the people involved. But, you know, we didn't get a lot of strangers. Reza was like, hey, I want to work with this DP, I know, you know, I got one or two stand ups that would be great for these roles. Let's try them first. I got an actor buddy that was in this other indie I did try him, and lo and behold, I look at the cast, there's a handful of people that we got from open casting. And we had huge open casting, we brought tons of people in, but I'd say 75% of that cast is a direct connection in one way or another. It's probably only a handful of people that we walked in and didn't know, and they just kicked so much, but we put them in, and I think a lot of people like to work with who they know, but there's a reality to that, so it's good to make a lot of friendships and connections, because you got a better chance of getting thrown into a film as an actor, if you're a waiter with the director who just got this small indie than just going to an open casting call. I almost wonder if it's even possible to do that anymore, to even get in a movie, just as a dude who walked in a room, hi, you don't know me. I'm here to show you how awesome I am, because in the back of the head they're sitting there, and they got their buddy or their nephew or their uncle or their neighbor or, you know, it's very incestuous, and our movie was no exception to that. But you trust those people. They didn't screw us. You know, we had strange we had one lady take us to sag, because we canceled her, because we had to cut the roll, because we couldn't film the scene. Dave, it was $150 roll, and she contacted sag and said, I need to be paid because they canceled on the day of she hadn't even left her house yet, dude, you know what I mean. So will we ever work with her again? Hell no. If we ever hear about her again, we'll be like, dude, that fill in the blank literally cost us $150 when we had nothing in the bank because a roll got cut. She wasn't in the car, she wasn't on set. Literally, she was just waking up and I said, I'm so so so sorry. But that just gives you an example of that type of attitude can be deadly, you know. So I'm glad she wasn't in it, because if somebody would do that, would do that to a small, tiny, little movie to get your 150 bucks, like, how would you have been on set? You know? I just, I just don't think you can be positive enough, even if you're not a positive person, learn to be because I don't think this is the business for you, if you're not ready to really just be nothing but good energy.

Dave Bullis 44:39
Yeah, I concur, you know. And the funny thing is, when last time I casted for a film I was shooting in, we did it the right way. We had, we had it at a studio. We had, you know, we had, we had two rooms. We had everything so, and we had a great audition room. It was on an elevated stage. And I had a rule, no. Know we, I am going to cast everybody that I don't know, people, people got, you know, that I knew, got to go up there, and I gave everyone a shot who I think even had a remote shot. And we whole day, and I actually ended up casting everybody who I didn't know completely. I had no friends, no family, nothing. Everybody was somebody I didn't know I was meeting for the first time, though, all those people proved out to be right. They were all great, great people, except for actually, let me. Let me amend what I just said. There's one person I hired based upon a producer who wanted him. And I said, Okay. I said, I will. I will. I will take a chance this person, that person, ended up being the problem. Okay, yeah, and that was because I knew, and I said, this is why I wanted all fresh faces. But by the way, it's funny, you mentioned about sag, because this person kept, you know, as I didn't even, I announced casting, and then I didn't even bother, like, you know what I mean, like my producers were on Facebook all the time, and I and, you know, at that point I, you know, I have a on and off relationship with Facebook. But anyways, dude, who doesn't, oh my god, the drama on Facebook. Like, who needs this shit? Honestly, the

Chris Jay 46:11
Whole promoted post shit, like, isn't the whole premise of Facebook is, if somebody likes you and they click like that, they get to know about what you're doing, and now you have to pay them to let them know what you're doing. It's like, ridiculous, dude. It's like you have like, 10,000 followers, and your posts reached five people. Like, Well, what about the 9599 five people that want to know what I'm doing, and now I have to pay you to do it. I almost feel like they invented that, they made it awesome, and then once they had the whole world on it, they decided to start getting fucking paid and screw you. The whole purpose of this is out the window. So, I mean, Facebook, to me is, I want it to go the way in my space, let it burn. You know,

Dave Bullis 46:49
It's like the mafia, man. Anything you want done on Facebook you got to pay for

Chris Jay 46:53
Absolutely totally Facebook, the mafia of social media.

Dave Bullis 46:58
But I was just gonna, just to finish that thought, This guy said, you know, hey, I would like to, like to try out, and I like to, you know, for a role. And already I've been warned about this guy, real creepy dude, real sleaze bag. Well, one of my producers says, Listen, you know, we'll be casting soon enough, or we're crowdfunding right now. He took us to sag and said that we were trying to make him pay to audition. Oh my god. And sag thankfully sided with us, and they said, No, they did not say that. Blah blah. I told my producer. I said, Don't even talk to him. I said, I told you about this guy, and then I mean, that caused a problem between us. And I mean, all because of this, this really wormy guy,

Chris Jay 47:41
Almost bizarre. It's like those people, just like I always fear. There's a lot of people in this world that I would like to fucking tell the fuck off, right? But I don't, because I just feel that you burn bridges. You never know what's going to occur, especially in a business like this. Why would you ever even somebody's a dick? Okay, they're a jerk. You're my homeboy, Dave. I call you on the slide and say, Dave, do not work with Chuck schmucatello. He's terrible, right? But why tell chuck that he's a terrible person? I even in life, I don't do that. When I meet somebody I don't like, it's like, what's the point, dude? Like, why throw that negative energy out there? I mean, it's just, but I just think people that do that in this business, what are they fools? They don't think people talk. I mean, it's just insanity, you know?

Dave Bullis 48:24
Oh, dude, I was one time on Facebook that, you know, the Philly film scene. As we were talking the pre interview, this guy gets on his Facebook, tags a local producer, and says the and says, Oh, this guy's a piece of shit. Fuck him. Blah, blah. And I'm sitting there and I'm thinking, this has to be a joke. I said, because there's no way this guy is serious. They start going back and forth all over Facebook, and the one and the guy chimes back with, well, it's not a good idea to make enemies with a producer. And they're going back and this guy, because the other guy was an actor, they're going back and forth. Other people are getting brought in. And I go, all these people have just entered my blacklist because, I mean, I would never want anything like this to happen.

Chris Jay 49:05
And the crazy deal like, Why, it's just, there's a lot of weird stuff out there. So obviously, you and I are jumping all over the place. But the whole point of that, to go back to the bet, the movie that that we made is, man, we eliminated that, Dave. I mean, it was awesome. If you were to go on this set, you literally would be treated with so much kindness and respect and check this out. When we were doing auditions, I would ask people that I was interested at the end, when they got up. I literally, I even the girl who plays our lead actress, who's going on to do some really cool stuff, I said, Because I loved her, I thought she was great. And I was just like, um, I have one last question. Like, are you a nice person? And she was stunned, and she was just like, uh, what do you mean? Like, I don't know. Just like, we're new to this, and, you know, we're scared of, like, the whole actress Hollywood reputation, like, we just want nice, normal people. Like, are you friendly, like, in real life? And she started laughing, and she's like, Yeah, yeah, I'm friendly in real life. But she was so stunned to hear that question. But it came from a very honest place, you know, like, Are you being real right now, or are you being nice because you want to get cast in this? Like, if we're having lunch, can we talk to each other? Are you going to be I don't want to be here. I just did it. Get everything on my reel. I got something better. Now I need to go be a hot chick on the set of, you know, 30 rock. I'd be bad example. But you know what I mean? Like, it was, I was so obsessed with making sure that people were nice. I wanted them talented too. There's a couple people we passed on. I think that could have maybe even helped the movie, because they had a bit of a name, because I met him, and I was like, I got a bad feeling, man. I got a bad feeling like they're not going to take this seriously. They want to be in bigger shit. I'd like those people that are kind of bubbling, that are really hungry and want to do good work. Because there was a lot of like with the dads. We cast two professional wrestlers. We cast Diamond Dallas Page and Jake the Snake Roberts, which is a wild story, but we had a couple leads on some dads, or more like character actors, and I won't say any names, but dudes that you and I know, but there were these B movie dudes, Dave, these dudes that like, Yo, you give them five grand a day, right? And they'll come and they'll barely know the lines. But you can say you've got the dude from this TV show in it, or the guy that was in this movie, you know. And they just make a living popping around these bean movies, I even hear one guy wore an earpiece. And I'm like, what? That guy's not even that big, but they're like, he wears an earpiece, and you feed him his lines, but hey, you can give him five grand, and then you can say so and so's the dad in your little, tiny movie. And I just thought that was so horrifying and kind of sad too. But it's a reality, you know?

Dave Bullis 51:42
Yeah, yeah, you know. I just, I was just thinking right now, a guy on set with an earpiece and someone, some, some pa feeding him live,

Chris Jay 51:49
And what does he say? Like, you know, okay, Mr. So and So, say this one sad, you know, I miss you son, you know. And he's just like, I miss you. I mean, imagine editing around that. I mean, imagine making sure the dude's hair covers the ear piece. And that's a reality that a filmmaker would do, because, hey, at least he's got some type of name. So on the stupid cover we can put featuring the dude from, I'm trying to think of a TV show, you know what I mean. But featuring the dude from, you know, you see them, Dave, you know, I don't have to do names. You see those guys that just, they're like, why are they in so many B movies where they just take the five grand a day and that's that, and then people cram their scenes in one day because they can't afford them for two days. You know, it's crazy, man.

Dave Bullis 52:32
You know, my favorite dad, who's actually starting B movies was, is Michael Gross from family ties, where he's he's in tremors. And I actually know somebody who's worked with him, and he says, No, Michael is not like that at all. Michael actually shows up. He still works hard. He's the nicest guy. And I said,

Chris Jay 52:49
I hasn't done more. I actually thought he was a really good actor. Like, is he still around?

Dave Bullis 52:55
Oh yeah, he's still around. He just released tremors five with him and Jamie Kennedy,

Chris Jay 52:58
Wow, wow. Dude, great name, great. That's a hell of a pull, right there. Dude, that's, that's somebody that's, just seems like a good actor. I bet he's a good dude. You know, that's what? Yeah, that's an interesting one. You forget about people like that. There's so many of them floating around out there. It's, it's got to be brutal, dude. I mean, to be an actor has just got to be tough.

Dave Bullis 53:16
Yeah, definitely. And, you know, I have friends who are actors, and we're always going back and forth about, you know, auditioning, casting and stuff like this. And, you know, because, you know, you know how it is Chris, because some people know, hey, Dave, you know what's this director like I'm going to work with? And I say, you know, he's, you know, he's pretty, no nonsense. And, you know, blah, blah, blah. And this one's, you know, real, you know, fast and loose. Just wants to have fun. So, you know what I mean, it just stuff like that, you know. And it's most and I would never recommend anybody like we were just talking about. I would never recommend anybody who I wasn't 100% confident in, you know what I mean? And I mean that that really is critical, you know. And I would, by the way, I would love to work with Michael Gross someday. I I've not only heard good things about him, but I heard, you know, I still, I love everything he's in, all the tremors movies. He makes those tremors movies.

Chris Jay 54:03
And plus, if he ever writes an autobiography, he already has the greatest title ever, just a gross life, and it's just hidden on the front looking sad, you know,

Dave Bullis 54:12
Just covered in blood of a tremor of a gravel. So, you know, Chris, as we you know, as we're talking about the bet I wanted to ask, and I always ask this to any filmmakers, what was the biggest challenge, whether it was a day, whether it was a specific incident, you know, what was the, you know, the biggest obstacle you had to overcome while you were making this,

Chris Jay 54:32
During during filming, or during the whole process, during filming, okay, um, during filming, okay? Because we filmed over 13 days, you know, we shot it in 13 days, all in the city of Ventura. The most difficult thing was during filming. The most difficult thing was the wearing of the different hats, because we were so small that Aaron and I were the set dressers. Right? Aaron and I were the the. Wardrobe dudes. Aaron and I were the prop guys. Aaron and I were the Go get the catering guys. And Aaron and I were also the, oh, geez, we were, I mean, we were, we were so much, we were so much, and it was too many hats. The lesson that I learned hopefully when we make our next one, oh, actually, I should talk positive when we make our next one, next year, right? The key thing, I think would be, is you just can't have enough of those assistants, not people to beat up or bully or make you go get coffee, you know what I mean, but just somebody there with you. Like, hey. Like, this is kind of my guy, you know what I mean. Like, you know, hey, I'm just gonna make this up. But Steve, Steve, you're with me, Ryan, you're with Aaron, yo. We'll treat you great. Nothing but love. But we just need a sec, a set of hands that you're always with me, almost like, give me two extra arms, you know. We're going to be doing some fun stuff, you know, but we just bit off more than we could choose, so it was hard to focus on that. And then I was also picking up wrestlers at airports. And we also had other people helping with this. Dave, I don't want you to think it was just four people making this movie, right? But we just thought we could do more. I wanted to be on set more dude, you know, and me sitting there watching it, and, you know, as the writer and CO producer, I wanted to be watching the actual movie get made. And I spent 50% of that movie not on set, but setting up the set, or picking people up, or picking up food because we were so small, you know? So I guess, I guess the most difficult thing was wearing too many hats. You got to find a way to find more people to help with the hats, but you have to trust them. And I really, and don't trust many people. I had a vision of how every room should look. I had a vision of, I knew the relationships with the restaurants that were doing the catering. So how can I send somebody when I need to be the one that goes in there, and it's Chris's face that they know, and that's why they're giving them a bunch of tacos. So it was just that, you know, I think you can wear too many hats, and sometimes that can probably be the death of small movies. But again, we had a lot of good people around us, so that, to me, was the most difficult thing. I should have trimmed a couple things off the list that I was responsible for, but we wanted to take that money, Dave, and put it in other places. And I think that's why our movie, hopefully, when you see it, hopefully you'll like it and find it funny, but I think you'll see man, for the budget. Damn. These guys did a good job of making this stuff look legit, you know. And I think that's because we put money, we saved money in certain places, where other places would get trailers right, or other places would hire a cating company, or other places would pay for food, or other places would hire a set dresser. We did all of that, you know, and that really, I think, made things difficult, but made us to make a movie that's better.

Dave Bullis 57:34
Yeah, you know, that is something I always talk about with filmmakers, is there's a tendency to read something like Robert Rodriguez's film without a filmmaker, without a crew, or even like the the the rebels guide by Stu makovitz. And it's almost like, and I've done this to myself, it's almost as if we try to be a one man crew, and it ends up hurting you more than helping you. And I completely understand Chris when you're talking about putting that money elsewhere. That's what I've always thought of, too. Is, you know, why should I have, you know, I can be the camera operator and the cinematographer and the and the boom mic operator, and I'll edit this thing, and you know what I mean, and I'll be the colorist. Well, I'll do Foley, just because you can, should you that's the question, exactly. Yeah. So that's why, when I make movies from now on, I always just want to be the writer, the director and the producer, and even, that's a lot. Even,

Chris Jay 58:23
Yeah, that's a lot, dude, that's a lot. I think the writer is the easiest one of the bunch, because your work's kind of done. Like, what are you going to do on set? Maybe catch a line that you want done a little different. It's, you know, what I'm saying, like, I think you can handle being like, but it sounds like, Yeah, I'm not certain. I'm not going to tell you how to do it, but you're right. I mean, you just wear so many hats because you can. But then again, at the end, the hardest part, the hardest part the whole movie, forget the filming. Filming was awesome, is post production. We were not prepared. We were not ready. We ran out of money. Tech issue after tech issue after tech issue after tech issue to the point of we the film is out upon release of this podcast right? Came out today, I believe, so the film can be seen blah, blah, blah, but I'm talking to you a couple days before we release it, right? Let's be honest. So our premiere is in Los Angeles in 48 hours, and we just just got the blu ray completed to show it, because the core producer and director spent the past 10 days doing program after program after recording after program to burn a freaking Blue Ray. I mean, like, that's what we're talking about, and it's tech. Tech. Tech, Tech. Tech has been a complete nightmare for something like this, because we haven't had the money to have a real, proper post production team, and it really made things take a long time. And was, really, was brutal, man. So I would say tech is the hardest part of it, which is funny, because it's the first thing you and I said when we got on the phone in the pre interview,

Dave Bullis 59:47
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I'm so glad though, that everything has worked out honestly, man. Because I honestly Chris, because I hear so many, you know, independent films. You know, they have a budget, whatever that budget might be, and they they get to like, 75% done, 80% done, and then all of a sudden they have to stop, for whatever reason. You know what I mean. I there's so many movies in the Philadelphia, especially in the Philadelphia especially in the Philadelphia area, where, you know, I am, where I've, you know, I've been a part of films like that, where I've been an actor for them, or I've helped out in crew or something, and all of a sudden, you know, they're like, oh, yeah, that movie's on some guy's hard drive, and we're probably never going to finish it.

Chris Jay 1:00:34
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. And how sad is that? Is there anything more sad in the world than that, man, I mean, like, you know that heart and soul and blood, sweat and tears and it's just gone? Like, oh man. I mean, I'd be devastated, dude. We were devastated how long post production was taking. And at one point I had, I was never going to give in to the vision, but there was a vision of, is this going to be one of these things, you know what I'm saying? Like, is this going to be one of these things that can't get done because we ran out of money? That was a real tough time. You know? I mean, post production took a long time, and, man, it's depressing. It's kind of scary. Like, oh my god. Like, you know, what are the investors gonna mean, I'm being honest with you, because it's a filmmaking podcast, right? But like, what are the investors gonna do if we, if we can't pull this off, what happens to the footage? What happens to our reputations? I mean, like, so we just stayed in the pocket. But, I mean, the amount of work, my God, Dave, if you could have told me ahead of time, I would have done it, of course, but geez, would I have questioned my sanity? You know? Because, I mean, I've basically remained in poverty just to get this thing done, because I can only work part time, because I need to spend the rest of the time working on the movie, man. I mean, it's God, is it a labor of love. I just have such a deep respect for people that make movies. Now, I will never shit on a movie. I may not like it, but an indie film, I'll shit on the studio ones all day, you know, but I will never shit on an indie film again. And when I say indie, let's talk about real indies, dude. I'm not talking about a million dollar indie with Daniel Radcliffe being a guy who farts as a corpse. I'm talking about like, you know, I'm talking about like, Hey, you made a movie for $100,000 you made a movie for 150 you made a move for 75 basically, you pull off a movie for under $150,000 and you have my respect forever, you know,

Dave Bullis 1:02:14
Yeah, and I agree completely. And by the way, Swiss Army Man, I somebody told me the premise of that movie, and I thought they were joking around, and then, and then I saw a trailer, and I was like, Oh, okay. I said, you know, Chris, I've seen so many weird movies over the years. At this point, I'm like, You know what? I'll take a gamble on this one too.

Chris Jay 1:02:32
Yeah, cool. Good for you, man, good for you. Maybe. I mean, honestly, it'd probably be like a freaking masterpiece, right? Could probably be like the most important film made in years, you know, so good for them. You got to respect somebody doing something different, you know, you have to. But people are telling me, like, it's this new indie, get the fuck out. Ain't nothing indie about a movie with those two guys in it. Come on. You know, the CGI alone, when he rides them through the ocean, probably costs like, $100,000 you know, you and I could have made five shorts for that, you know?

Dave Bullis 1:03:01
Yeah, seriously, I mean, and I believe I understand completely what you're saying, Chris and I and, you know, because, I mean, I've made movies for literally nothing, just everyone doing it for the love of the game. And then I've made things for like, 2530, $40,000 and you're like, holy crap. It sounds like a lot of money when I started, and now it's like, down to nothing, yeah.

Chris Jay 1:03:20
I mean, it's, man, it's just a, it's, it's a mind blowing business, man, I got a lot of respect for you guys that do this and love it and breathe it because it's so hard to get it done. I mean, what other thing can you name that you just can't do? Right? If I want to be a pro baseball player, probably not going to happen. But damn it, I can play baseball every day of my life, right? I can get in an intramural league. I can play and fill in the blank with anything else music. Okay, maybe I'm not going to be, you know, um, I'll give you Bon Jovi reference, and you're that part of the world. I'm not going to be Bon Jovi, but I can still write a song, I can still find a little coffee house open mic, and I can play it for people, right? But you just can't make a film. Okay? You can grab your iPhone, of course, you I'm not saying you can do that, but do you know what I mean, an actual full length feature film. You just can't do it. There's a million hurdles. There's all these people, I don't know. I just think it's just such a such an undertaking to go down that road that I just support anybody. Man, like, just awesome. Hell, it's great. How can I help you? You know, what do you need? Because you're about to go to war, like you are about to go to war, and it doesn't end in the filming. You know, here I am two two years later, finally releasing the thing and the distribution you're dealing with, and doing the premiere and and doing the press, and you're all do, I mean, dude, I mean, I'm just again. You are talking to me at a time where my head's spinning. So you're probably getting a very emotional version of me. If we talk in three months, we could probably have a very relaxed So, Chris, how did it happen? Whoa, Dave, this happened, you know, but I'm in the midst of, like, ah and, but it's an exciting ah, and I asked for this, and I'm pumped up and, and we're proud of it too, man, you know, it's, it's, it's a, it's a big life goal and a huge accomplishment, you know,

Dave Bullis 1:04:57
Yeah, oh, absolutely. Chris. And, you know. I mean, I've been there before, too, and I completely understand where you're coming from, dude. And honestly, Chris, you should be proud of the bet movie. And now you're gonna, you're probably at that phase where you know you at the end, you're, you're probably, you know, you're drained, you've given everything you can, and you're like, you know what, I've made one movie. That's it. Goodbye. And then about a month or two letter. You're like, Man, I should maybe make a note.

Chris Jay 1:05:23
It's funny. You say that, Dave, um, while we were waiting for uh, post production to happen, and we're kind of had the post production blues, right? And trying to find some more money, right? What we did is, uh, we wrote another script, Aaron, and I learned so much. We said, let's take this education. Let's write another one man and and, you know, it's so funny. You know, you always you get better. But we had so much on set experience in this whole process, I kind of feel like we went to film school without going to film school, right? And, and I'm sure film school people be like idiot. No, you didn't. No, it's true. I don't know the difference between this brand of camera this brand of camera, right? But, um, we wrote this next script, and we're very excited about it. We actually want to shoot it next year in South Jersey, in your neck of the woods, and it was so cool because we got to write a script, knowing what it's like to make a movie. Now we know what we need. Now we know too. Can't write that scene that's ridiculous. It'll get cut. So it got to be very focused. And that's just the education that comes with time that guys like you have. But it was very exciting to put that into play, and if this movie does well, you know, your hope is that it opens the door for another executive producer, or the same executive producers, or just more connections in the business to back this and get behind another one. But I definitely learned we need more money if we want to take make the type of movie we made, we're not going to be able to do it on that budget again. We're going to need to find a couple more bucks. You got to move up the ladder a little bit, right? You can't, you can't go in the opposite direction.

Dave Bullis 1:06:45
Oh, yeah. It's just like what Dov Simon says, you know, you may. You get to make a $20,000 movie, then you make a $50,000 movie, then you make 100 some odd 1000 and then all of a sudden you're making million dollar movies. You know what I mean? I think, actually, I think he starts off with, in his paradigm, you make, you make a movie for nothing, literally, it's just your friends, whatever. And then you, you have to make a movie for like, 10 grand or five grand, and then you move up, you know, sporadically, but, yeah, but I know exactly where you're coming from, because that's what I mean. That's what I've always said too, is, you know, people ask me about making stuff and why haven't made anything like four or five years? And my answer is, is, because I'm an idiot, and I write things and I go, Holy shit, I would never be able to even using all my methods I talk about in this podcast, even having all the people who've talked to me and saying, like, what do you have access to? What can you make today with it, with all you have access to, I end up writing stuff that that. I'm like, Dude, I look at one effect, and I'm like, this thing would cost 50 grand, or I look at this, this would cause, you know, I mean, I mean, but then again, Chris, you know, I don't know if you, I don't know if you ever listen to this other couple of podcasts, but, I mean, I'm the guy who was able to get a live working tank and also able to get fake police cars to destroy, and we stand, and it wasn't That. Wasn't, you know, we couldn't make it because, not because we couldn't find the tank and the police cars to destroy, but because me and the director couldn't get along. So it was a very odd,

Chris Jay 1:08:11
I love it, so therefore your biography should be, I found the tank once the Dave Bullis story, you know,

Dave Bullis 1:08:17
Yeah, yeah. And I actually, because I have a friend of mine, who's a mechanic. He he has a contract with police. The police department had all the old police parts. We were going to doctor up all these old Junkers to look like police cars from just one side, and then run a tank over them. And we had, and I got everything all squared away. And, I mean, the director connected.

Chris Jay 1:08:37
Wow, that's crazy, do you but, but now he's in tank. No, you found a tank. That's the important thing. You know? Yep, I he's my tank guy. From now on, this guy, I love it. Hey, at least you have a tank guy. A lot of people don't have that.

Dave Bullis 1:08:49
I love it. I got two things going for me. I had a pro wrestling match, and I have a tank guy. So that's it.

Chris Jay 1:08:55
I think for most people, that's enough. You know what I mean? Like, you know, you know, even on your tombstone, like your lies. Dave bolas, he had one pro wrestling match, and one time he found a tank. I mean, everybody's gonna take a picture of that tombstone. That's gonna be plastic.

Dave Bullis 1:09:10
As I'm buried in a What is it, the piano crate. But I just become like Marlon Brando. I just eat myself into like an early grave. Worse. We just took a very dark turn there. But, but, but, Chris, I wanted to ask, Where can people find the bet movie?

Chris Jay 1:09:29
Yeah, absolutely. So the bet as of right now, is officially out. I think it's actually comes out today, on the day of airing from July 26 on, it is on, shouldn't be, should be on all VOD outlets, like time, Warner's movies on demand, Comcast movies on demand. You know, DirecTV movies on demand. And, of course, iTunes, that's kind of the de facto place, and that's probably the first place I would send somebody to look for it on iTunes. But it'll also be available for ran on Xbox this. PlayStation, Fandango, now voodoo. So basically all the digital outlets, the VOD outlets, and then we'll be doing a DVD at the end of August, and then, God willing, fingers crossed conversation for another time we land on Netflix or Hulu Hulu with the streaming deal. So that's the plan. But right now, if you want to see this movie, if you like comedy, if you like silly movies, if you like professional wrestling, if you just want to see what a bunch of psychotic, ambitious dudes made on a small budget, you know, check it out this. This one came from the heart man. It's a silly movie. It's a wild movie. It's a wacky movie. It's certainly not for everybody. It's not high brow, um, Dave. But, you know, in a weird way, it came from all the right places. You know, it came from good people that worked really hard against a lot of odds. And, you know, I think, as any indie filmmaker, regardless of the content, it's the type of movie you want to download, buy it once, and support it because, you know, I think a lot of people can relate to the struggle. Man, you know, it is real, and it's always cool. When somebody cracks through and gets it out there, we'll see what happens. Man, I don't know what's going to happen, but it's exciting. It's exciting to find out, you know,

Dave Bullis 1:11:19
Yeah, and by the way, I meant to mention, this is Roddy Roddy Piper's last movie, right?

Chris Jay 1:11:23
Yes, it's a final appearance of Roddy Roddy Piper. He has a cameo in the film. So it is small, but that was one of the great joys of my life, was having Roddy Piper in my own house hanging out. We got to spend a wonderful day together. We really bonded. We actually became friends from the whole project and kept in touch. So, you know when, we lost him, that was, you know, it kind of affected me a little bit. It was strange to have made friends with a hero like that, and then worked with him on this, and started to talk to him about other projects, and just as quickly as he came in my life, he left. But it's a real honor to me if the only thing that this movie becomes known for, historically, that's a stretch of a word, but is, if it's known, oh, that was that last movie that Roddy popped in for a couple minutes. Fine by me, man, fine by me. I'm honored to be the guy that made Roddy Piper's last movie.

Dave Bullis 1:12:12
Yeah. And honestly, even if I, if I didn't know you, Chris, I honestly, I would have actually bought the movie just to see his last performance. I was, you know, being a wrestling fan. I'm a huge Piper fan as well, and that, I think that is so freaking cool. So it'll be all say, on your, on your, you know, on your eulogy, that can say, Hey, Chris, you know, Chris J he, he was able to hang out with rowdy Piper, and he made the bet move.

Chris Jay 1:12:35
Yeah, there you go. That's it, man, that's, that's all I got going for me. And of course, if anybody's listening. If they want to follow us online, you can go to the bet movie 20 sixteen.com From there, you can connect to our Facebook, our Twitter, our Instagram. We're trying to have fun with the marketing day. We're really trying to get a little cult buzz on this. It's for comedy fans. It's for wrestling fans. We got some talented people in it, man. You know our two lead actors, Amanda Clayton, is going to be in a Martin Scorsese movie at the end of the year. She's on a Tyler Perry show right now, our lead actor has a small role in Guardians of the Galaxy two so you're going to see some faces in here that I truly believe in my heart. In the next year or two, you're going to see a lot more of and I think we just took casting so seriously that, you know, hopefully it's one of those films that gains momentum as it goes to Netflix. As people see it, they're like, Hey, man, I saw this movie, and it's kind of wild, but it's actually funny. I like to think it's kind of, I don't know, you know, I think it's a funny movie. You don't make a comedy to not make people laugh, and that was our goal.

Dave Bullis 1:13:33
You know, I'm glad you actually brought that up. If you have the time. I had some fan questions coming through Twitter. Yeah, sure. Okay, so one of them, it actually is, if there was one thing that you wanted the audience to take away from your film, what would that be?

Chris Jay 1:13:49
Somebody's got to write dick and fart jokes. Why not me?

Dave Bullis 1:13:56
The second question is, what cameras did you shoot on? And did you shoot in 4k?

Chris Jay 1:14:03
We shot on an Alexa, which we were very lucky to get. So it looks awesome. And then we did one or two pickup shots with a red that was attached to a drone, and the guy that let us use it basically ran around and followed it underneath in terror, because he was ready to catch it if it fell.

Dave Bullis 1:14:22
And so you shot, you didn't shoot in 4k?

Chris Jay 1:14:23
You know? I mean, that's how not technical I am. I'm being completely blunt with you, Dave, I'm not sure. I just know that we had the Alexa camera that everybody was super excited, and it looked great, especially when we put that color on. It's like, Man, this looks like a real movie, quote, unquote,

Dave Bullis 1:14:40
You know, it's, uh, by the way, as you, you know, go through this wonderful world of filmmaking, by the way, that's the number one question you will always ask from now, every time you make a film, every other filmmaker is going to ask you this question, what did you shoot it on? What did you shoot it on? Okay, yep, that that will be the de facto question. And, you know, they're a filmmaker, because non. Filmmaking people don't give two flying fucks. What you shoot on they you could shoot it on a cardboard box. No, you're gonna say, Hey, I shot it with my iPhone. Oh, that's cool. What they're every filmmaking person is gonna say, Hey, would you shoot that?

Chris Jay 1:15:11
Okay, okay, I just sent a text to find out so in the future, I won't look like a goob.

Dave Bullis 1:15:16
It's cool, man, believe me, man, I you know, it's all good with me, you know? Because every time that I've every film, if you go to a film festival, a film networking thing, and you show a film, would you shoot that on Okay, would you shoot that? That's everybody. Everyone loves to ask that question, but, but, but I just that's how I can tell if you're a film, if you're in the industry or not, because non industry people won't even mention it,

Dave Bullis 1:15:39
But, but, but, yeah, Chris, I want to say thank you so much for coming on. And I want to ask where people find you out online,

Chris Jay 1:15:50
Yeah, if people want to see what I'm up to and all that fun stuff, the best place is probably on Twitter, and it's just at army of freshmen. That's the name of the band, and that's where I kind of put my all my personal stuff, you know? And I got the text message, so I'm a professional filmmaker now, Dave, you ready? Yeah, I'm ready. Ready. Ready, ready. It said we shot on an Alexa camera. And it said that the time Alexa didn't shoot four, we shot on a two, does that? Okay? So 2k? 2k. Okay, that's what I want to say. And Alexa, 2k. Okay, good. Is that a good thing, Gabe, or bad thing?

Dave Bullis 1:16:32
That's fun, honestly, man, you know, that's the most

Chris Jay 1:16:35
Should have hung up on me. That would be a great end of this conversation. What a fuck!

Dave Bullis 1:16:40
That's I end up most conversations. What a fun but, but basically, you know, everyone only has 1080 1080 monitors, TVs, tablets, phones. So, I mean, you know this whole thing about shooting 248, you know, it's, I don't know if it matters at the end of the day, I, you know, I think it's a great thing, honestly, if you shoot, I think we're ways away from shooting everyone shooting in 4k and being able to enjoy in 4k as well, because you have to crush all this stuff anyway. So my answer is, yeah, I think that's great, man.

Chris Jay 1:17:11
Okay, good, good, good, good. I can't wait for you to see it, man. I really mean that out of everybody that I've been talking to, publicity wise, I think you'll have a neat perspective, number one, because you like wrestling in all honesty, and you'll probably understand how it's hard to work with wrestlers and but you'll understand the comedy of it. And number two, you're a film guy, you know. Number three, you're from Philly. And number four, you didn't laugh at me when I didn't know what camera it was shot on. So these, you know, you're the type of guy that needs to see this film.

Dave Bullis 1:17:36
You know, I'm gonna put all my PJs. I'm gonna fire up the old Xbox, I'm gonna check it out.

Chris Jay 1:17:41
Go, go, go. Awesome. David. And thank you so much for your time, dude. And again, I do listen to the podcast, and I always enjoy your conversations. I like how you have a lot of variety of people on the show. You're not like, kind of one of those conceited podcasts that kind of just rip on people and, you know, they just kind of make it sort of, I don't know, it's kind of seems like bitter dudes that don't make movies that want to rip on people that do that's not you. You're always so supportive to your guests, and I always learn something. So I am a fan. Man, it was a real pleasure talking to you.

Dave Bullis 1:18:07
Oh no, I appreciate that, Chris, like I said in the pre interview, man, I you know, I always try to stay positive. You know, I always want to make this a place of positivity and have as many interesting, diverse people on as I can. But having said that, I want to say thank you very much for coming on, Chris, and I really do wish you the best with a bet movie. I am going to be checking it out Tuesday, July the 26th it is released on all of the of the channels that Chris was talking about. But Chris, honestly, man, I want to say thank you so much for coming on, and I'm going to make sure to check out the bet movie.

Chris Jay 1:18:40
Cool. My pleasure, Dave, you take care. And thanks everybody for listening. Really does mean a lot. Please check out the film and say hi. Let us know what you thought. Awesome. Take care. Okay, take care brother!

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BPS 454: What Really Happens After You Write the Script with Michael K. Snyder

January 15, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

On today’s episode, we dive deep into the long game of screenwriting and career-building with Michael K. Snyder, a writer and producer whose journey is a masterclass in patience, preparation, and persistence. Michael’s story isn’t about overnight success or viral moments—it’s about understanding how the industry actually works and learning how to navigate it without losing your creative voice. From film school to studio meetings, his path reveals what happens after the script is written, when development, relationships, and timing become everything.

Michael began his career at Full Sail University, later earning a master’s degree before making the leap to Los Angeles. Unlike many aspiring writers, he didn’t move west blindly. He arrived with a plan, a growing network, and a willingness to work his way up. One of his earliest breakthroughs came from reaching out directly to Lloyd Kaufman of Troma—an act that taught him a crucial lesson early on: opportunities are rarely handed out, but they often appear when you’re willing to ask professionally and follow through. That mindset became the foundation of his career.

Once in Los Angeles, Michael balanced day jobs with constant writing, producing short films whenever possible. Access to a massive warehouse space allowed him and fellow filmmakers to shoot projects on their own terms, building real credits instead of waiting for permission. During this time, he continued developing feature scripts and pilots, understanding that every script serves a purpose—even if it never gets made. Some are calling cards. Others are doors to conversations that lead somewhere unexpected.

That philosophy paid off when a script he shared online attracted a manager’s attention. While the majority of feedback was harsh and dismissive, one email changed everything. Instead of focusing on the negativity, Michael leaned into the opportunity, turning that script into a relationship that opened doors across town. Meetings followed—not because the script was guaranteed to sell, but because it demonstrated voice, ambition, and storytelling instinct. In Hollywood, that’s often enough to get you in the room.

Michael’s experience highlights a critical truth about development: selling a script is rarely the goal. Selling yourself as a writer who understands story, character, and collaboration is what matters most. He explains how development can stretch for months or even years, involving outlines, treatments, rewrites, and constant conversations with producers. It’s not glamorous, and it’s rarely fast—but it’s where careers are built.

One of the most fascinating parts of Michael’s journey is his work adapting existing material. From pitching large-scale biographical projects to developing treatments for iconic properties, he learned how executives evaluate writers not just on originality, but on how they handle legacy, tone, and character. Adaptation, he explains, is about honoring the heart of a story while making it relevant for a modern audience—a skill that has become increasingly valuable in today’s IP-driven marketplace.

At its core, Michael K. Snyder’s story is about loving the process. He emphasizes that if you don’t enjoy development, collaboration, and long stretches of uncertainty, this industry will wear you down. But if you can learn to embrace the grind—rewriting, networking, pitching, and waiting—you give yourself a real chance to succeed. His journey is proof that careers aren’t built on single moments, but on years of showing up, doing the work, and staying ready when opportunity finally knocks.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:00
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 0:46
My next guest is a graduate of Full Sail University's film and entertainment business programs. He's the founder of Crash Films Inc, he's an independent film producer. He's a screenwriter. This guy has done so many crazy, awesome things, and we're gonna get into all that, and we're gonna talk a lot about screenwriting and development, and also we talk a little bit about networking too, because he didn't just go out to LA without a plan, without knowing anybody. He actually had a plan in place. And he's doing such some really awesome things. And why don't we just go right into it with guest Michael K Snyder, Mike, you were the app. You were the guest on the first ever episode. The episode is now considered a part of the lost episodes. The first three are considered the Lost episodes. You were number one. You were my first guest, and it's so good three years later to have you actually back on so Mike, again, I want to say thank you very much for joining us. And it's kind of funny how we've come full circle now, all the way back from three years ago,

Michael K. Snyder 2:51
Man, I'm so happy to be back on the show. You know it is, it is. It's kind of funny that we that we have come full circle. You're totally right. And just thinking about some of the progressions that we've both made in our careers and how things have changed. It's just really interesting,

Dave Bullis 3:08
Yeah, and it's funny too, because when I, when we lasted the interview again, it was, it was remotely like we're doing right now, but I was in a actual studio doing it, and I had nothing but problems there. And now I'm doing it from my my office, and I, you know, it's just 10,000 times better. Because I remember when we had the episode and I listened to it, and I was like, What the hell happened here? And it was, that freaking recorder was not, would never work, right? So I the first two episodes, I use that recorder in this really awesome radio station with soundproof and then all of a sudden, now it's like, you know, I mean, it just even technology, how it's improved in three freaking years. Is unbelievable, crazy. Yeah, it is unbelievable. So, you know, Mike, since that episode is a little lost, actually, it is lost. Sorry, this is the episode is lost. You know, I want to dig a little into your background, for those of you, for those listeners who aren't really aware of, you know, all the things that you've done. So, you know, you were actually a graduate of Full Sail University. You graduated in what, 2010?

Michael K. Snyder 4:05
Um, oh, man. I graduated full sales film program in 2010-2011 and then I graduated their master's program couple years after that, so I moved out to LA, and about 2014 2015

Dave Bullis 4:27
Okay, so then, see, again, I just found out. I didn't even know you graduated from the masters program. So see, I'm finding out, yeah, so, so you move out to LA. Now we actually met through, through trauma, through Lloyd Kaufman, and, you know, while, and that was while you were actually at Full Sail. So when you were at full sail, do you think you know that you had a lot more opportunities that you wouldn't have had anywhere else? So sort of like to work a lot of these different movies.

Michael K. Snyder 4:56
I don't know. I don't really think that, you know, film. School in general matters, as much as a lot of people want to say, it does, I think you know, given what I know now, if I could go back, I probably would have tried to work a little bit harder in high school and tried to get into like USC or UCLA, just because I feel like, you know, it's really all about your network. And if you can get in out here a little earlier, it just makes it so much easier to meet executives or meet agents or meet managers or producers, because a lot of them are going to be in the same class as you whereas, if you're you know, in Florida, and you go into a school that anybody you know is pretty much paying to go to because it's private, it's it's just not the same pool of resources. That's not to say that they didn't help me get jobs out here and introducing to a lot of people, but I would say that a lot of what I would consider to be my own success is just based on me reaching out to people myself.

Dave Bullis 5:54
You know, there's an old saying, your net worth is your I'm sorry, Your network is your net worth. And that's 100% true. It really is. My honest to God, even, even if you do something as obvious as like crowdfunding, obviously, and you go out and you're like, Well, hey, I need people to invest in this project. Or if you're doing something like even this podcast, or even doing something like releasing a film, if you don't have a network built up, you really don't have any way to really distribute the thing unless you're literally trying to build it as you're doing it, which is, was just like shooting yourself in the foot. That's absolutely right. So, so when, when you say you should, you wish you had applied yourself in high school. You go out to like USC and stuff like that. I mean, no, Mike, I trust me. Man, I feel you. I did the same thing in high school. Man, I honestly, and when senior year came around, I didn't give a shit about anything. That's right, I literally, man, like, my teachers were like, Dave, you know, you don't apply yourself anymore. And I'm like, I don't care. I just want to get the hell out of here.

Michael K. Snyder 6:56
Exactly. That's how I was. I was, I was, I was like that before my I was like, that might be eighth grade. So, you know, yeah, I went to two different high schools, and I, you know, the funny part is, when I was a junior in high school, I cook in English. I was in an English Honors class because I finally had a teacher who kind of convinced me to apply myself writing. And she actually did an informational interview assignment where you had to reach out to a professional in your fields, or where you wanted to go into the career you wanted to go into. So I was like, Well, shit, man, I want to be a, you know, writer, director. I mean, Spielberg is not gonna return my calls. You know, I can't really reach out to Scorsese. So who can I reach out to? And that's actually how I met Boyd with Troma and started working, like the conventions in Florida with him, which is just really funny. And I think that was a moment where I my mind kind of opened up a little bit, where it was like, Okay, maybe you should just focus on this and focus on filmmaking, writing and your network. So when I went to high school, I mean, obviously in Florida, when you go to high school, there's not like a there's not even like a film history class, but like a film theory, like elective, it's all just the brass tacks high school stuff. And I would there was no way for me to apply myself in the career that I really wanted to except for in this one creative writing class, you know. And I think there's something to say about the arts programs and schools with that, because I wouldn't be in the situation I'm in right now if I hadn't, you know, taken that course and made that decision. And I wish there was more of those types of opportunities for people, you know, and students,

Dave Bullis 8:33
Yeah, it would show you that there's more out there than just sort of like, you know, you know, options A, B and C. That's right, so, and you know, that's something to that, you know, even when I was in high school, man, we would always watch these movies, all these freaking movies. We would go to, like, all the local video stores. You know, most people who listen to this podcast know what, what those were like, the blockbuster Hollywood videos. Oh yeah, man, and stuff like that. And then, but, but, you know, we would always rent these movies. We'd go out, and every Friday, Saturday night, or whatever, we'd go out, we we'd just be watching all sorts of different movies and all these crazy freaking stuff. And it didn't even dawn on me at that point, dude, that I could make a, you know, I could do this for a living. I just figured that, though everyone who wrote and made movies was like, you know, granted these special privileges by like, the president united states or some crap, you know,

Michael K. Snyder 9:24
Right, right, exactly. It's like, it's the unattainable goal. It's out there. But you have no what, you have no idea how to, you know, map your road success in that field, there's, there weren't a lot of resources, you know. And it's crazy. It was literally like, you go and you watch movies and you think, you know, I remember when I was 10 years old, I was watching close encounters, and I like, this is great, you know? And it was the first time my parents ever were like, well, you know, someone wrote that movie. And it was like a light bulb went off in my brain, like somebody writes movies, you know, it's the craziest thing. But now I think there's a lot, there's a few more resources just years later, and not that many years, but there really weren't when I was in high school,

Dave Bullis 10:14
Yeah, it was sort of like, you know, you have to go to college, you have to do this stuff. And when I went to it, you know, and when I went to college, I didn't know, I didn't know any exactly what I wanted to major in. And, you know, I bounced around from major to major, but I was always, you know, in my spare time, I was practicing writing. And I actually met the first book I ever got on screenwriting was a book called the screenwriters Bible by David Trottier. And and I bought that, and that just sort of like opened the floodgates. And now I was like, you know, getting different movies and trying to figure out, you know, how to actually, how they wrote that stuff, and how I do it. I'll still do it, but, but then you start to realize, oh my god, there are people out there who actually make movies. And I actually, and if that, I guess maybe it was, like, 2006 or seven. I actually, really got into it. And I was like, you know, talking to independent filmmakers. I found them on, on, on MySpace. Remember MySpace Mike?

Michael K. Snyder 11:08
Yeah. Man, yeah. Unfortunately, I do. I think mine's like, like, I think I went, went to great lengths to delete mine.

Dave Bullis 11:20
I mine was actually deleted for me. I got a notice one day. They were like, we're gonna just terminate all these unused MySpace accounts. Yours is one of them. And I said, Honestly, burn that guy to that burn that thing to the ground.

Michael K. Snyder 11:33
Yeah, please take it away. Don't let anyone see this.

Dave Bullis 11:40
It's so true. It's a It's, I have a friend of mine who still has, or he had one, and I was like, my god man, I go, that's like a something from your childhood. That's like an embarrassing moment. You're just like, Please never bring that up again. But, but, you know, I actually, I actually met him from filmmakers through my space and and some of these guys were actually in, like Jersey and New York and, you know, I never really put two and two together that there's, there was a lot more. There wasn't, well, there was a lot more in the in the whole bigger area. I don't want to say PA, because there really wasn't that many in PA at that time, but, but like New York and jersey, there was a few people. Most didn't respond back, because most were looking for, like producers that could fund and give them money, some actually money, right, exactly. And most actually did, though, you know, come back and say, Okay, here's what you can do. And then I just, you know, went from there, but, but you know what I'm trying to say with all this is, it's similar to what you did with Lloyd, and you reached out to him and said, You know, I can, I should see how I could actually work with this guy. And you made an opportunity for yourself.

Michael K. Snyder 12:46
Yeah. I mean, I took a class assignment, and I reached out on my shop an email. I was like, hey, I want to do an interview with you over the phone, you know, and just talk about your career and how you've made something out of nothing and continue to do so, and he responded back with a cell phone number, and that was, that was it. And then it was just really up to me to keep him pinned down and stay on top of them as much as possible. You know, whenever he was in town, or I went to New York and that saw him, you know, and different things, it was, it was just to keep, to keep the relationship alive,

Dave Bullis 13:19
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, now with technology, we're able to actually, you know, keep in contact with people a lot better, and so, and also it's a double edged sword, because then you're getting too much contact with with every at once, right? But, you know, but you made an opportunity, you reached out, even was for a class or and you made sure to make a contact. And I think that's so important. And I think, and also, you did the professional way. I mean, I just had Whitney Davis in the podcast for the second time, and we talked about networking the right way. And, you know, the first time that you, you contact somebody, you shouldn't be asking for something, right? No, totally. And, and, you know, you, you actually were offering something for Lloyd, and he took you up on that. And then again, now, you know? And here we are all these years later, because I and because, when you, when you were on that trauma film, we met through that, because that's when I met Lloyd, and then we started talking. And then I think, yeah, yeah, that's how we met. And then then there's it, you know, I've met a few other people through it, Lloyd. And, you know, Lloyd's always doing something on independent films. He's a connector man.

Michael K. Snyder 14:26
I mean, he's the great connector, you know. I mean, he just, if he's able to put you on the phone or in the room with somebody that you want to be on the phone or in the room with, He'll do whatever he can to be the one to do it. Who does it, you know? And and then he'll take all credit for it, which he rightfully deserves.

Dave Bullis 14:44
Yeah, and I remember reading his, his independent film book, and it was just absolutely hilarious. And I was like, See, he's, he's making independent film feel fun. It's not taken too seriously. And, you know his and when he was on the pub. Podcast, he he said he found a trauma in prison with Michael Hertz, and he was Michael Hertz's bitch, and they found a trauma in prison. And I'm like, wow. And afterwards, the after the interview, I said to him, I go, Lloyd. Do you ever think that someone's gonna listen to this for the first time, not hearing of hewer Troma? And think, Wow, that guy really started a movie business in prison.

Michael K. Snyder 15:24
Like, I hope so, you know, it's not far from the truth.

Dave Bullis 15:29
You know, Yeah, seriously, you know, I've and Lloyd is great. He's a very good connector. He's always connecting, you know, different people. And, you know, again, because he connected us and, and I, I've been on different film sets multiple times. And you so, you know, after you got off, this, you know, just to continue your story, after you got off, you know, the working on trauma, and, you know, you sort of, you went back to full sail. You know, at what point did you want to, did you realize that you wanted to go back for your for a Master's at full sail,

Michael K. Snyder 16:01
At the beginning, just because it was kind of part of the deal with my parents, and just the way that they structured their programs, it was like, if you it was like they had a deal, like it was like a Bogo, like, if you buy one degree, you know, we can give you The second degree at a certain cost that was 1000s of dollars less than it would have been had you decided to do it later. Because every so many years, they restructure their programs and they change the cost. So it just happened to be that when we sat down with a representative of wholesale, they were just, they're like, now if you want to take the master's program in business, you know, we can, we can, we can go ahead and lump it in with the film program, and it'll end up costing you less money later on. And, you know, it was like a was like, no time. You know, it was so quick, because it's such an accelerated program, that my parents were like, he might as well. And, I mean, at that point, it was kind of whatever they wanted to do. I was really doing it more for them. I think I kind of knew that I needed to move somewhere and just start working, but, you know, to keep everything cool at home and to put a diploma on the wall. I was like, yeah, we'll go and do that.

Dave Bullis 17:09
And, you know, again, it's good that you had a plan, because honestly, like, you can become like me, and, you know, obviously have no plan and just kind of figure your way out, but, but, no, it's good the unit, but

Michael K. Snyder 17:22
It's tough, man. There's not really a plan out there. You know, it's like, you just have to figure it out. There's not really a right or wrong way to do this. I think I you just have to, you have to do it. You have to just set goals and hit those goals. And those goals can be anything, as long as you know that at the end of that list there's some sort of success. And whatever that success is, and that be monetary success, it could just be moving to Los Angeles, or moving to New York, or getting a show, a gig, on a show, or anything, you know, there's not really, there's not really a way to teach this.

Dave Bullis 17:53
And you mentioned, you know, moving to LA, and that's actually when I want to ask next is, you know, yeah, so you got the Masters, and then you moved out to LA I think you said 2014 is when you move down.

Michael K. Snyder 18:04
It was, yeah, I mean, I'm horrible with dates, so I'm probably butchering it, but let's just say that. And basically what happened is, after I was done with the film program and I went to the Masters, all of my film school friends had already moved out to Los Angeles, so by the time I was done, you know, I had couches to sleep on, which is really key when you're moving from, you know, Podunk, Florida to one of the most expensive cities in the nation, it's nice to be able to find somewhere to sleep while you're getting your footing or finding your footing right. And so I hooked up with the Career Development Program at full sail, and they got me an internship out here. And I called one of my friends, and he was like, Man, you can come out here. You can sleep on my couch for as long as you want or need to. You know, I know that you're not getting paid anything with your internship. Just Just get out here. Like, that's all we want. We just want you out here. So I flew out and moved in with him and started my internship. And it was interesting. I was running a 10,000 square foot warehouse in downtown Los Angeles for more Tierney and Anthony Reva var and Sean wing and a few other actors, and Nathan Heaney, who's a great director of photography now, and they, basically, they pulled their resources. They rented this massive warehouse, right? And it's like really old warehouse in downtown, and they needed some young kids to run it, so there was one other guy who was managing it, and I interned there. And after a couple months, they hired me on as his like assistant. And then after a couple months, I got his job. So I ended up doing that for a couple years and opened a second location in Burbank with Stacy share, who everyone knows is Tarantino's producing partner, or was and her husband, Carrie Brown, who's a really good friend, and we did a lot of really cool stuff, man, and it was a lot of fun, and I got to meet a lot of really great people my first couple years out here, which is always nice.

Dave Bullis 20:11
Yeah, and you mentioned having couches to sleep on, that was actually one of my questions. Because having that network, since everyone already moved out there, you know, and having those couches to sleep on and places to crash and, you know, key, yeah, exactly it is key. And again, our your network is your net worth. And again, you you're able to actually, you know, go out there and not just be like, Alright, so what next? I mean, I've had friends Mike, who've gone out to LA and sort of been like, with, with no plan, and been like, Okay, what next? It's like, well, you're gonna, you're gonna suffer if you do that. Yeah, you're gonna really, really, reality is gonna hit you very fast,

Michael K. Snyder 20:51
Totally.

Dave Bullis 20:53
So you now, you mentioned you got the, you know, the warehouse job. Now, at this point, were you always writing scripts. And did you maybe have a few scripts to show to different like, maybe producers or agencies?

Michael K. Snyder 21:06
Yeah. I mean, I started writing screenplays when I was probably 11 years old, pen and paper. Then I figured out how to adjust the macros and word. Then I figured out, you know, you could get keltics and all these freeware. Then I found out that there was all these forums and independent script hosting sites online. So I was always putting material out there. I mean, I was just pushing short films and short stories and really shitty features out there and whatever I could just to get reads and get comments, because that's, you know, structure is key from from that point of view. So by the time I'd moved to Los Angeles, I had some features kind of under my belt, and I had one in particular that I was, I think, the most proud of, and working on the hardest. And basically I started reaching out to people. And while I was out here for those first couple of years, I was also producing short films, because I had this awesome 10,000 square foot warehouse that would be rented out for events and films and stuff, you know, half of the year, and then it would just be sitting there the other half of the year. So I would get my buddies who had RED cameras and lenses and all these different things, and we would produce short films, and we write them and produce them. And I had two that premiered at the Cannes Film Festival, you know, two different years. So I used that, and I used, like kind of my background, and I sent an email to Carson, who runs script shadow. Some people love him, some people hate him, whatever. And I attached a feature that I'd written that I was pretty proud of, and he agreed to host it on his site for one of the, you know, independent hostings that he does. And I would say I got 100 emails from people that were basically, this sucks, you know, you don't know what you're talking about. You're a dumb millennial. I mean literally that. And I got one email from somebody who ended up being my manager.

Dave Bullis 22:59
But, you know, am I going to ask you about the the manager email in a second, but I want to, before I do that, I want to ask you, why do you think you got so much hate mail? Do you think it was from a lot of well, no, I have my own theory about why you got so much hate mail. And my theory is this, there's a lot of people who have unrealized dreams, and whenever they kind of see someone coming down the pipeline, it's like a chance to sort of almost like, if I could throw off all this frustration and anger and resentment onto somebody else for just even five seconds, I'm going to take that shot. That's my theory about it. But why do you think you got so much of those angry emails?

Michael K. Snyder 23:34
Yeah, I think it's a combination of that. And I think that, you know, I may have come off as a little little arrogant, because I was like, Look, you know, I've produced these two short films. You know, I'm like, 25 24 25 years old. And I just could really benefit from hosting this script, yada yada yada. And I think it's a combination of people misreading my inventions and also just what you're saying. It's like armchair, you know, screenwriter reviewers, screen, screen. Screenplay reviewers, they're sitting there and they're rewriting movies in their heads and on their sofa. But they're not actually out there hitting the pavement, and because of that inability to motivate themselves, they, they're haters.

Dave Bullis 24:16
Yeah, it's that. That's what I think, is that they, they're very angry. They're very, you know, a lot of the lot of people in this business, there's a lot of awesome people. And you and I talk about this, you know, because we talk a lot, and we talk about how sometimes this business is stereotyped as everyone is bitter, angry out to get you. But there's a ton of awesome people in this business, and there are, man, yeah, totally, and it's just and, but it's unfortunate, like situations like that where it's like, you really see the sort of dark side, where it's like, what the hell is this? There was actually a screenwriting group I used to be a part of on Facebook. It was a Facebook group, and I think it was, it was set to private or whatever, and I remember people would post in there, and. And they would post stuff that was completely wrong, and you would sit there and you try to correct it, you know, and just not, not like, say, Okay, you're wrong, which is, say, hey, there's another way to do this. They would jump all over people. And finally, I said, Why the hell am I a part of this frickin group anymore? And it's

Michael K. Snyder 25:15
It can't all be negative, yeah, you know, it has to be. It has to be, there has to be optimism, because it's such a hard industry to break into, that if all people are bringing is negativity, you're just gonna stop someone from potentially a cheating or dream.

Dave Bullis 25:31
And it's almost too like when you know, when you're actually producing a film, you know, if you have people around you who are constantly just being like problem spotters and not problem solvers. You know, there's those, the type of people that you got to, like, jettison from the project as soon as possible.

Michael K. Snyder 25:47
Oh, totally, man. It's, it's, it's, you can boil it down to, you know, don't bring me the problem. Bring me the solution, really,

Dave Bullis 25:55
Yeah, yeah, you hit the nail around the head Mike and, you know, so, so as you sort of go back to talking about script shadow, you got one email that was from a manager who said, you know, I want to talk to you. So,

Michael K. Snyder 26:07
Yeah, it was like, I think you showed a lot of talent on the page. A little bit about me. He gave me his background, and he was like, let's, you know, let's grab some coffee. And he went and we got coffee. And I thought he was great. I was really knowledgeable nice guy, and, you know, I kind of just pitched myself as hard as I could, and at the end of the meeting, he was kind of like, all right, what do you want to do? And at this point, I had an idea of what I wanted my next project to be, and I had, I chose something that I felt was, you know, probably not going to get made. But if I could partner with the right person, I could get in front of the people who would potentially make it, and that would open all the other doors for me. And it was a script I wrote called The mouse Who Would Be King. And it's the story of Mickey Mouse and how Walt Disney developed and created Mickey Mouse. And it ends with creation of Mickey Mouse, and I wrote it in a very Roger Rabbit way, where you see what he's thinking and all these different things. And so I told him that, and I was like, it's never gonna get made, but let's put it out there. Let's take meetings, and let's get into development, because, you know, we have time. We can do this now. And he kind of like, what does that mean? He was like, Alright, let's do it. And we shook hands, and we went from there.

Dave Bullis 27:22
So and then from there? Did you go start actually going to, like, all these different, like, pitch meetings and stuff?

Michael K. Snyder 27:27
Yeah. I mean, we beat out the story. You know, I had the story because I grew up in Florida, right? And we went to Disney World all the time. And at Disney World, they have an exhibit called one man stream, where you can go in, and it's like a Disney museum. And then there's this movie at the end where it basically explains how Walt had created Oswald, the Lucky Rabbit, and it was stolen from him, or, you know, he didn't really understand the full paradigms of his contract and universal. Owned it, and he put all this work into it, and he's like, I should own this, because I put all this work into it. And on a train ride back home to tell his team and his wife. He started coming up with Mickey Mouse, so I knew that that's what I wanted to end the movie with. Like I had my end scene. I had the idea of Walt Disney going on a train and having, like, this just epiphany of Mickey Mouse. And the way that I wanted to dramatize it was to actually have Mickey Mouse walk on the train car with him. So we beat out the story, and we, you know, I read a bunch of books, and kind of just filled my manager's head with all this knowledge of Disney that he didn't otherwise know. And then we wrote it, and I wrote drafts and drafts and drafts and drafts while still working at the studio, and he was like, finally, you know, we nailed it down. And he started sending, I send it to agencies, sends production companies, executives, producers, all sorts of people. And then the real game began, and I started taking meetings.

Dave Bullis 28:57
So how long was it before, you know, you talked to the manager, you would beat it out. And before you got meetings, how long was that whole time period there?

Michael K. Snyder 29:04
Oh, man. I mean, I really knew the story, so I think it was kind of an easier development process, and it was just he and I. So there weren't a lot of coats in the kitchen. I mean, probably a six months, seven months, and then I started taking meetings.

Dave Bullis 29:21
So when you actually started to take these meetings, what were some of the what was some of the feedback that you were getting?

Michael K. Snyder 29:28
I, everyone loved the script. It was something where they were like, you know, we love the script, and we want to know what else you're working on, and if we can find something to work on together. And I started developing, like, I developed a TV show with one guy that didn't go anywhere. I developed a TV show with image movers, which is Robertson Max's company, that didn't go anywhere. And I took that and I took that somewhere else and everything kind of led into other projects. Every every meeting I had, every conversation I had, ended up giving me something else to work on, or they had something that i. Could fit into, or I showed some sort of interest in a project that they brought up in a meeting. And then, you know, that's really key, is you go in there. And of course, I'm nervous, you know? And I'm moved out here to do this, and I'm going to intermediate with these big guys, right? And they can be very intimidating, and the key is really to sell them on what your brand is and what your personal story is. And if you can do that, they're going to try and find something that they have that almost feels like a perfect fit for you, and then you'd have to capitalize on it. And none of those projects went anywhere, but they led to other conversations and other development things and and other specs that led to where I am today.

Dave Bullis 31:00
So you use that Mickey Mouse script, and that, that sort of became like a calling card script to get your story, yeah, to get your foot in the door. And they were saying, you know, did they say to you, Hey, Mike, we love, you know, the mouse would be king. What else do you have?

Michael K. Snyder 31:15
Yeah! I mean, there was a little bit of that. It was like, what else are you thinking about? Like, what else are you writing? And then, based on that, it was like, if I was writing something that was sci fi, they would say, Oh, well, we have this sci fi thing, or we are. We're looking at this book. What do you think about this book? Or, for instance, when I went to image movers, it was more so about the fact that I used to box, and I was an amateur boxer, and they had a producer who had optioned all of FX tools short stories. And FX tool wrote Million Dollar Baby, right? So they had optioned all of them, except for Million Dollar Baby, because obviously Warner's had that. And they were like, Would you be interested in trying to build a TV show based on these short stories? And of course, you say yes. And then I started developing that. And when that fell through, I took all of the FX tool references out of what we had been working on, and I wrote a spec pilot, just without all those references that I filled it with my own personal experiences from boxing. And then that pilot became my TV calling card, and then we sent that out to everybody.

Dave Bullis 32:22
And so when you sent that out to everybody, did you sort of have like, a whole nother round of meetings with, like, the same, oh, yeah, management companies, or was it different?

Michael K. Snyder 32:30
It's kind of like a like an album. Like, you write an album, and then you go on a tour and you do all these concerts. Like, that's kind of how I look at it. You write a script, you give it to some of your manager or your agent, they send it around to everybody. And then people finally get back home and they want to meet with you. And then you go on a tour, you know, and you're basically going to all these different generals and all these different meetings and and hoping that something turns into something else, you know, I never feel like the specific project that I'm going in with is going to sell. You know, I'm not there to sell that project. I always feel like I'm there to sell myself as a writer and to get on something either they already have, or just open that line of communication where I can pitch them something later on.

Dave Bullis 33:16
And so when you know you're building relationships, relationships, so now that's it, yeah. And so now they know when you come to the door, like, oh, you know, there's Michael K Snyder. He's, he's guy was, so, you know, brought the whole Disney project, and he's done this, and, you know, so, and you, you know, you so they're sort of, you're building a good reputation for yourself,

Michael K. Snyder 33:34
Yeah, because this whole town is relationships. That's really all it is. You know, somebody who I met, you know, five years ago, and was a, you know, creative exec somewhere is now, you know, VP production at a studio, right? And I can go to them and be like, you know, just just by just because I've kept in contact with all these people throughout the years, and then they move up and they change, and their mandates change, and you never know when you're going to have something that fits their mandate, yeah?

Dave Bullis 34:04
Because, you know, you know, tastes change, you know. And now everybody, I swear, I'm like, the number one question, and the number one thing I hear from doing this podcast is, you know, always have a TV pilot ready. Because now they all, they want something. Everybody wants something episodic now,

Michael K. Snyder 34:18
Yeah, it's interesting. You know, I knew with some producers who they don't want a pilot, they want to pitch, and the specific networks who they have a deal with, or whoever they've worked with, has, you know, their mandate is, you know, we want to hear the pitch and then develop the pilot, because there's money. And then some producers are like, we only want to take a spec pilot out, you know, we don't want to pitch, we don't want to buy, but we just want to get the spec and then take that out. So it's really, you know, it's, everyone's different. Every network is different, every company is different,

Dave Bullis 34:49
Yeah, and you know, now, with everybody else getting into the game, like, you know, like Amazon, I mean, even, even from a few years ago, you know, an Amazon, there's always rumors that Walmart is going to get into the cut. Custom content game and, I mean, you just see all these, these different players now popping up, and all the other players are still there, like your Netflix, you know, and then Hulu, and all your big, your big studios. So it's just, you know, now it's like, you have a lot of options as a writer.

Michael K. Snyder 35:16
That's right, yeah, you do. It's just, you know, getting into the conversation.

Dave Bullis 35:21
So as we talk about getting into the conversation, you know you had just recently pitched a treatment for a sequel for a very well known movie. And I know you can't talk too much about it, but you know, can you just tell you know, all the listeners about, you know what the treatment was that you pitched?

Michael K. Snyder 35:39
Yeah, totally. So basically what happened is, I'll go back and kind of preface it with another story. I was sent an article from you know, by my girlfriend, about this SeaWorld orca trainer named John Hargrove, who worked at SeaWorld for 14 years and became like this elite killer whale trainer, and quit, and he wrote a memoir. So, I mean, of course, again, growing up in Orlando, I have pictures of myself as a little kid, like sitting on Shamu, right, you know. So I'm like, I don't want to see black fish. I don't want to know anything about it. I know it's probably terrible, but I don't need that guilt, you know. So she sent me this article, and I read it, and I read it, and I was so drawn into that rabbit hole that I just, I totally just jumped in. And I bought his book, and I read it overnight, and I started, like, as I'm reading the book, I'm like, highlighting scenes that I see in my head and different things. And he's the author, is just so interesting. His personal story so interesting, beyond the fact that he worked at SeaWorld, and the day after I read it, my girlfriend was in Long Beach, and just randomly, it's really funny, met the author, who doesn't even live out here, and she went up to him, was like, You got to cost my boyfriend. He's got a great idea. He knows how to turn your books to a movie. He can do it. We can do it together, you know, give him a call. So before he could call me, I had already, like, typed up a pitch. You know, why I should write this movie and and what my version of his story is, which was essentially to take audiences into the tank with him and grow that emotional connection that he had with the killer whale, and so I sent him the email, called me the next day, and we talked for like four hours, and just became really good friends and and he was pretty much like, Alright, what do I sign? So from there, we wrote a 30 page treatment, and he took that and we pitched it all over town to all different companies, and the consensus was, this movie's great, you know, this idea is great, but we need you to spec the script. So I spec that feature out, and then we sent that back, and it just it, just at that point, you know, this is a matter of a few months just to go back to what we're just talking about, those companies that already changed their mandate. And it was like, well, now we're looking for thrillers, or now we're looking for Netflix or Amazon, and we don't think this fits that mandate, blah, blah, blah, so that's fine. So we sent that around and and I had met with an executive at Ellen pompios company calamity. Jane Ellen Pompeo is Meredith gray on Gray's Anatomy, and we had talked about a couple projects, and she is a big anti Sea World person, so, you know, they only have a TV deal with ABC. They don't do any film. So I reached out to my manager. You know, on my my girlfriend is like, you need to, you need to send it over to them. And I'm like, well, they only have a TV deal. And she's like, Just do it. Just do it. Because the moral of my life and right now is my girlfriend, Rachel's always right, to be completely honest with you, and every time she told me that I need to do something, she's and I disagree with her, I end up doing it. Everyone benefits from so I've learned that the hard way, but she's always right. And so we sent it over to them, and they called and they were like, We love this. You know, we don't know how to do this, but we love this. We want to reach out to someone else to try and see if we can partner with them, because we don't make movies. And it just so happened that the person that they wanted to reach out to was Lawrence, who are donner, who, of course, is the amazing producer of all the X Men films and Deadpool, and she produced Free Willy, and she's the wife of Richard Donner, who everyone knows is the director of Superman, the yeoman, faithful weapon Goonies all that. And they're big anti captivity, anti fur, anti zoo, all that. So we went down the line with them, and they were interested. And at the end of the day, it just wasn't something that they felt they wanted to go down again, because they again, they produce Free Willy, and they got kind of attacked for that at a time, and they're like, we don't really want to do that again. So my manager went in, and he met with the head of their company, and he was like, Well, what else Mike, want to do? And my manager started talking to him about a couple of projects that I had that everyone considers to be Amblin in tone, as in Steven Spielberg's production company, of course. And he was like, well, we've wanted to do a Dooney two for a long time, and we've heard a lot of pitches, and we've gotten a lot of treatments from basically every writer in Hollywood, and nobody can get, you know dick and Steven and Chris Columbus to agree on their version of the sequel. What do you want to do that? And my manager is like, yeah, of course. He wants to do that. I mean, he kidding me, right? So I get a call and my manager, and he's like, What do you think about the Goonies? And I'm like, Are you serious? Like, of course I want to do this. I mean, of course I want to throw, you know, throw my card in it, and really try to throw in my hand. But it was quite the challenge. So we sat down and I watched the original movie a dozen times again and came up with a with an idea for a new Goonies movie. Not exactly a sequel. I wouldn't, I wouldn't really say, but sort of like, how do I force awakens the Goonies right?

Dave Bullis 41:17
Yeah. And I think again, because I don't know how, I don't want to go too in depth with it, but there is, there is one thing I want to say that it was, I think was awesome that you did it when this was, since, since will when I Willie's treasure was found, the town itself was basically had become, hey, nobody, it's not special anymore, because there's no more, there's no more treasure to find, right?

Michael K. Snyder 41:44
Totally, it's, how do you tell this story You know, 30 something years after the first movie took place, and it's also, you know, I love the Goonies, and everyone loves the Goonies, but it's a, it's a product of it, of the year it came out, right? And you really, it would be really hard to make that kind of movie today, because there's just constraints with the way budgets work, and just having an all kid cast and all these different things. So it was really, how do I, in a way, bring the magic and tone of the original into today's marketplace and into today's kids in the world of today's kids. And then how do I bring select members of the cast back and have them involved? So I don't know. I don't know if the movie will ever get made. I don't know if there'll ever be a new Goonies movie, because it's hard for everyone to agree on something. But, uh, you know, Dick has it and and he's reading it. I'm just waiting to hear back from him now.

Dave Bullis 42:43
Yeah, him now. So do you ever think, Mike, that you would ever maybe use this treatment as, sort of, like a pitch for other projects? So maybe, like, you know, if you ever, they ever said, Hey, Mike, what else have you been working on? You'll say, Hey, I've worked on this goonish treatment for, you know, and as and I pitch it to Richard Donner. And, you know, would you ever, at any point, ever do something like that?

Michael K. Snyder 43:04
Absolutely every conversation I've had since I've brought that up in the room, you know, because everyone collectively loves the Goonies. So when you bring that up, and if you know they want to, kind of know what the basis of the pitch is. And you know, without giving too much away, you give that to them, and then they can kind of see how your mind works when adapting other material, you know, source material, which is key right now, because that's what everyone's doing. And it's actually funny, because of the project that I'm most excited about and currently developing, that I can't really say the name of what it is and who the players are, but it's two veteran producers who made a lot of movies, and it's an adaptation of a classic story by a well respected author. And I partially believe that, you know, it was sort of a combination of beneath the surface, which is a sea world movie, that script, getting me in the door with them, and then me saying, you know, oh, by the way, right now I'm also writing a treatment and pitching a Goony sequel. And here's kind of how I'm doing and how I'm adapting it.

Dave Bullis 44:17
So, so, so as you know you're going to these pitch meetings, and as you are sort of working on things, you know, one of the things that you and I always talk about is development and, you know, sort of, yeah, and sort of managing expectations. So what are some of the things that you know you can sort of discuss about, you know, development, like, let's just say, for instance, let's just give a scenario example. Let's just say they, somebody does buy a script. It's a completely original spec script. They were to buy it. You know what? What are some of the things that happen in development?

Michael K. Snyder 44:47
It's interesting. I think a lot of people, myself included, kind of always felt, or still feel, that once you get to the point in your career where you're actually. Really meeting with the real producers, you know, not just the assistants or anything like that, but the actual people who can sign a check that everything just changes. But the reality is, you know, the ceiling just gets higher, right? So you climb up to the top of Everest only to realize that there's another like, you know, 600 miles that you can't see because it's so freaking tall, and that that's how it feels. So I think, you know, when someone comes along and they buy a spec, they're going to do one of two things, if it's a big spec, like, if we're talking, you know, Blockbuster temple, they're going to hire a studio writer to do a polish. And that's partially to if it's a if it's a if it's a big studio, and they're they've got shareholders that they have to convince it's that it's like, well, we'll have the Coen brothers come in and they'll do a polish on all the dialog, and everyone will be happy to give us the money to make the movie. If it's a smaller, contained kind of genre film, like a 10 Cloverfield Lane or something like that, then it's a whole different conversation. Then, then you could be the sole writer, unless they hire a writer director who wants to come in and do a Polish as well. The other end of the coin is, when, in the situation I'm in now is I've had something pitched to me, you know. So I go in and I pitch five movies, and they want to make one of the movies I pitch, and then they also, but, you know, but first we want to do one of the ones that we're looking at with you, so they pitch me the movie. Then it's, you know, I got to look at the source material, which is a book. I got to figure out, how am I going to add my voice, or, you know, what's my style with this source material? And then it just begins this really lengthy process of development that nobody really understands, and I'm just still learning it as an as I go. Because one, every executive and producer is different, and two, it's just not something that anybody ever talks about in film school or anywhere else. So in this circumstance, it's, it's very much like, okay, read the book and then give us an outline, right? That was the first thing. It's like, give us an online of how you would adapt it. So then I sit down and I write, you know, like a 10 12, page outline, and it's basically in prose. That's just how I write my outlines. And I send it over to them, and they're like, Okay, great. Well, come into the office and we'll talk about it. So go in the office. They tell me what they love, they tell me what they don't really like, and then they tell me, you know, kind of how to help structure it. Because a lot of the studios, and this is fairly true thing, you know, they categorize writers in two different categories, right? One is a writer who can write character, and the other is a writer who can write structure. And the key, I think, is to really understand character, because they can give you the structure, if you can come up with the characters, and you can come up with what the real story is behind everything, and why you need to tell this story, and why these characters are going through what they're going through, and not just, you know, by page 12, we're at the inciting incident and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, save the cat if you can come up with the characters, they are paid to kind of look at it like math and look at it like plotting. So they're going to look at what you give them, and they're going to say, Okay, so do you think this section of your outline is like the first five pages? And you say, yes, that's for five pages, and then blah, blah, blah. And it helps you, it helps them to plot it in their mind from a producing standpoint, whereas you the writers, should be thinking about the characters. And when I look at a lot of movies and I see you know that, and I'm just unhappy with the screenplays, it's because they're coming at it from a complete structure and, you know, Stan or POV, and not from character. And I can see it when I watch the movies, and I can also see complacency, where it's like, you could have made that better, but you didn't, because of one of two things. One, you're getting a paycheck, and it doesn't matter, because you know, they're going to market a shit out of the movie, and millions and millions of people are going to see two because you're nervous. You're in the room with these guys. They have a bad idea, and you're afraid to tell them no, or you're afraid to say yes, smile and nod, go home and find out how to best tweak their ideas that are worse than the story. And that, to me, is what development is. It's this long process, six months to a year, where you're beating out the story with producers in the hopes that at the end of this process, they're either going to hire you to write the script or they're going to make a deal with you where you spec the script and then once the project gets funded, then you get paid.

Dave Bullis 49:45
Yeah! And, you know, there was an article, I think was in The Wall Street Journal about how, you know, why do so many of these, these big budget movies, feel the same? And that was the answer, was, they think that there's too much, you know, save the cat structure in there, because

Michael K. Snyder 50:09
It's all structure. Yeah, you. know, and that's great. I mean, you need structure, but you should be the story guy. The writer should be the story guy. The writer should be the person who makes the audience feel for the themes and the characters and the film or the TV series, the executives, the suits, the money people, they should be the structure, guys and girls. They should be the people who are looking at it from a plotting POV, so that when they call a director who comes in, they can beat out the acts with the director, and he totally understands what they're saying. It's like math. Let them do the math, but you have to provide them with the numbers.

Dave Bullis 50:48
So, and, you know, I was talking to somebody about this too, was, you know, if you look at movies in from, like, the 70s and the 80s, you know, there's, there's all these, you know, really unique movies. And you sort of, as you sort of get to the sort of end of the 90s to now, you can see the big difference. And the big difference is it's almost like with now they want to sort of have creativity controlled, where they know sort of what they're they want to have it so it's almost like the project is handheld from all these steps. And they're sort of like, okay, you know. Now on page 17, this has to happen. PAGE 25 this has to happen. Stuff like that,

Michael K. Snyder 51:24
Right, right! Totally. It's interesting. I mean, I've never thought about writing like that ever in my life. I've never I've read all these books and I've taken all these classes and I've and I understand the logic, but I've never truly approached writing that way. I've always approached it as what is the story? Why is the story relevant? And how do I fit these characters and these themes into today's marketplace? That's the only math I ever do. I don't worry about what happens by page 30 or page 25 or page 60, not, at least until after I've written out an outline or a treatment or even a first draft, then I start to think, okay, how can I Whittle this down? You know, how can I get the action started earlier? But i The key is really to just do it, get it finished, and then you can always go back and correct it.

Dave Bullis 52:10
Yeah, it's like Tarantino, the Cohen brothers. They don't write, you know, by that either, you know, I know there's a lot of other like Kevin Smith, Robert Regas, I know those don't, those guys don't write by the whole like, you know, hey, we have to have this happen by this page and stuff like that. And I think, you know, yeah, I think what had happened is, I think as you sort of try to crack this nut, so to speak, I think that's where you see guys like Sid field and Blake center with Save the cat. They sort of wonder, you know, okay, how did they write the somebody whoever script it is, how do they write this script and what do? All right, good. What are all the good things that they have in common? So these scripts that are, you know, the top one percentile, what are they actually doing versus what they're not doing? And I think that then that's where all these systems come from, like, you know, and that's where all those books come from.

Michael K. Snyder 52:55
Yeah, it's hard to understand, and it's hard to read the books, and it's mark to kind of get what you know, the end goal is and understand the structure. But I just, I don't think anything should ever be approached with structure in mind first. I'm not saying you should have a first act that goes, you know, 80 pages, but I am saying that, you know, if you look at some of your favorite movies like you just said, they're not really going off of any structure they're going off of. What's the best way to tell this story?

Dave Bullis 53:25
Yeah, and I think also that, I think that's why independent film now is sort of having, you know, is sort of why, you know, crowdfunding and everything else, I think, is that becomes more popular. That's going to be where, you know, more people are going to say, you know, I could just crowdfund my movie for maybe 20,30, $40,000 and at least shoot it the way I want to, rather than rewrite it and try to actually, you know, sell to an agency or whatever, right? Yeah.

Michael K. Snyder 53:50
And, I mean, you can, you can definitely do that. And there's definitely ways to monetize that and build a career off of that. I think my approach is, how can I get into the system and not change the system, but just bring that storytelling approach into the system with with some of the bigger titles and and bigger films, and to not be complacent and just saying yes to everything, but to find the best way to tell the story. Because if you find the best way to tell a story, and you can pitch it to an executive or producer, and they know that what you're saying makes sense and is right, they're not going to tell you, no, they don't want to make a bad movie. Like the goal isn't to make a bad movie. You just have to be 10 steps ahead and be willing to tell them your idea.

Dave Bullis 54:40
Yeah, it's, that is, you know, key is sort of how to communicate, right? So, how do you communicate something without, actually, you know, nobody wants to say no, but, but you also can't say yes, so you have to communicate in a different way. And I remember,

Michael K. Snyder 54:55
Yeah, I mean, it's risk management, you know, you have to give them a way that they can tell their boss or tell their finance. Years, or tell the studio that they have a deal with you have to give it to them so that they can, they can express the idea or the story or the structure or whatever you're presenting them with in the best way to their bosses, right?

Dave Bullis 55:14
Yeah, exactly because that way, you know, obviously it's sort of, you know, that nobody wants to be the person that says no, because I was reading a book about this a few years ago, and they said, you know, if you don't want to tell you know, the next Vince Gilligan, no. And then, you know, if you, if you work for that, that that studio, and then all of a sudden, it's a hit, and then he comes back, says, hell, aren't you that person that said no to me, aren't you that guy? Holy, you're totally right. So, you know, and Mike, I just wanted to ask one. I have a few more final questions. I know we're starting to get out of time as I see the count. I didn't I realized this. This conversation flew by. I didn't even realize how long we were talking. So, you know, for writing competitions, what do you think are some of the top writing competitions out there right now for writers?

Michael K. Snyder 56:01
Oh, man. I mean, I think it all depends on what your goal is. If your goal is to get some representation, then I think, you know, nickels is always great because it's such a well respected contest. I think that the tracking boards contests are really great. I know a lot of people get reps based off of that. If you're trying to make some money, you know, put a little bit of money in your pocket, then I think there's a lot of genre based writing competitions that have money prizes, and maybe their contacts aren't as good as some of the other ones, but you're going to get some money out of it. So I think it's really how you want to approach it. Do you want to build a career and get representation, or do you want to get, like, 40 G, you know, in the in the bank

Dave Bullis 56:42
And, you know, because I know you went through the, you know, script shadows website, and you were to, you know, I was just wondering, you know, because I know, again, as we were talking about opportunities, you know, all the different opportunities out there. And, you know, that's, that's why I asked that question, just to see, because every time I turn around, there's a new writing competition opening up.

Michael K. Snyder 57:00
And, yeah, I don't know a lot of them, you know? I mean, I don't, I'm not really familiar with them because I don't enter a lot of them. I mean, I think blacklist is great if you have the money to spend on evaluations. I think, I think blacklist is, is still a very good asset. I like I said, I love the guys at the tracking board. I think what they're doing is is great, and they have a lot of great managers and agents on their review boards that do judge these scripts, and they do sign writers and give them other opportunities. And I know that from a genre POV, like, if you're doing a horror script or a sci fi script, there's tons of great genre contests, I don't that are offering cash prizes, or, you know, the opportunity to pitch a producer or, you know, producers are partnering with these contests. I don't. I just, I'm not well versed in their names and what they are exactly, but I agree that they're popping up every day,

Dave Bullis 57:52
Yeah, particularly the blood list that came out of nowhere. And when I heard about what that is, I was like, wow, that's a fantastic idea. Yeah, it's a good one for sure. And by the way, for those listening, the blood list is, I realized I said it Mike. I was like, so the blood list is, the is a, is the ranking of the top horse unproduced horror scripts that are out there. And this was put together by, I think, is it Kelly Marshak? Is her name, or Kelly March? I think so, yeah, it's, it's she actually put this together, and it's sort of like the blacklist, but for horror scripts. And, you know, I can

Michael K. Snyder 58:27
Horror is so underappreciated, man, and I was just having this conversation that is, like, some of the best directors come from our like, even someone like Spielberg, like, if you watch his action sequences, and like Jurassic Park, or some of his even the close encounters and et they're all tension and horror based, like it's all about building the anticipation for the scare or the reveal. And that's all classic horror filmmaking. And I think that the genre is totally underappreciated, especially when you look at so many great directors who come from it.

Dave Bullis 58:59
Yeah, it's so true. I mean, field girl, all the people who started off with horror, and, you know, like, particularly, like guys like Sam Raimi, they sort of

Michael K. Snyder 59:08
Totally, I mean, look at his career, like, it's, it's, it's amazing. He has the career that anyone could dream for.

Dave Bullis 59:14
Yeah, he does. And, you know, he's a great guy, yeah, and he's been, you know, making all these great projects. And now, look, he's got the evil, dead TV series,

Michael K. Snyder 59:26
Exactly, and it's great, you know, he's doing great things with it. He's just, just launched Skydance television. He's got a whole new TV, you know, production company, and he's really taking advantage of the wonderful opportunity that is today's current TV market,

Dave Bullis 59:42
Yeah, and, you know, that's when, you know, you're over talking about episodic stuff. And that's something else too. Is again, because everyone, I swear, Mike, it's always about, you know, hey, feature films are great. But you know, do you have anything episodic? Do you have anything that, like a TV pilot that could, you know, go on for 18 years, like, you know. But, but, yeah, no, totally, yeah. Yeah, and you know, that's, that's always something I'm too in the back burner that I've always been making sure I have is at least a couple, you know, TV pilots. And, yeah, exactly, you know, anything you know, just just making up, you know, just just in case, they actually say, you know, hey, you know, if what else do you have? And you know you're ready to be prepared. And I also think, like, as we know, we talk about expectations and development and all and networking and all this stuff that we've talked about, I think being prepared, yeah, you know, I think you'll agree with this. I don't think you're ever really 100% prepared. You can just do what you can do. And if, and sooner or later, if you keep trying, you're going to be in the right place at the right time.

Michael K. Snyder 1:00:50
You got to love the process, you know? You got to love the process. You got to be willing to get a day job if you need some money. You got to be willing to sleep on a couch if you don't have a place to stay. You just got to love the process of hitting the pavement, finding representation, and then taking that and exploiting that to the ends of the earth, to meet all these producers and executives, and then hoping that you get into development. And then you have to learn to love the process of development, which is hard because there's not a lot of money in it. If there is any money at all. It's not a ton up front. So you have to really love the process and love what it how it feels to crack a story and to negotiate for plot points with executives and defend your case. You have to learn to love that. And if you can learn to fall in love with that, then the rest of it is cake.

Dave Bullis 1:01:40
Very well said, Mike, Mike, so we're just about out of time. And I agree, Mike, you have to love that process, and you're just in closing away. I just want to ask, you know, where people find you out online.

Michael K. Snyder 1:01:53
I'm always, you know, I'm on Facebook. Michael K Snyder, I'm on I'm on Twitter at MK Snyder 1990 I'm always looking people to reach out and connect, and if I can help, I'm more than happy to I'm always looking to collaborate on different things and help put the pieces of the puzzle together.

Dave Bullis 1:02:12
Yeah, and everyone, Mike is a fantastic guy. I've known Mike for years now, and as I'm going through my just my mental role decks, Mike, I think I might might have known you longer than anybody else. I don't know, though, there's two other people I've had on a podcast where I've known longer than you. So you're like, you're like number, you're like the third or fourth person in life, people I've known long. I love it, but because I just remember, there's a friend I had on here from middle school episode 1/5 with Chris per minute ago. And Chris actually teach your Chris actually was a producer on game over and he also actually now teaches film and TV production. And amazing. That was, that was a fun interview, and I'll give you this little snippet. It was just funny because he, he's like, I'm in. I'm teaching now. He's like, so he's like, Don't curse. Don't tell any weird stories before. And I'm like, Well, Jesus Christ, man, that's all I do is curse. If you take that away from me, I'm not Dave Bullis anymore. I All I do is Chris tell weird stories.

Michael K. Snyder 1:03:06
That's awesome. That's your voice.

Dave Bullis 1:03:09
Love it. Yeah. Very, very true, Mike and Mike again, I want to say thank you so much. You and I have been friends for years. You know you're somebody whose opinion I really trust, and I really, I really just know that you were going to hit a huge, colossal Grand Slam soon enough.

Michael K. Snyder 1:03:27
Thanks, man. I really appreciate that. And the feeling is mutual, my friend, you know, I think that, yeah, your opinion is one of the opinions I value more than many others. You know, I send you work before other people see it, because you're that guy, man, you have, you have great taste.

Dave Bullis 1:03:44
Oh, thank you, Mike. I appreciate that. And everybody, everybody, make sure you go check out, Mike. Seriously, he this guy is always on the ball. He's always doing something really, really cool. So please go check out Mike. And Mike, anytime I'm gonna come back on, please let me know. I'd love to have you on, and I wish you the best of luck, man in everything.

Michael K. Snyder 1:04:03
Thanks, man, I will. I'll take you on that

Dave Bullis 1:04:05
Sounds good buddy. Take care. Have a great Saturday.

Michael K. Snyder 1:04:10
You too, my friend.

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BPS 453: How to Build a Screenwriting Career That Actually Lasts with Bob Saenz

January 8, 2026 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

On today’s episode, we welcome Bob Saenz, a working screenwriter and actor whose career quietly dismantles many of the myths surrounding Hollywood success. Bob has written big-budget studio projects, indie features, and multiple Hallmark movies, while also building a long acting career that includes Zodiac, Nash Bridges, and voice work as the iconic villain in the Syphon Filter video game series. What makes Bob’s journey compelling isn’t flash—it’s longevity, adaptability, and a deep respect for story.

Bob’s career began as an actor in the San Francisco Bay Area, where he spent years performing in theater before making a conscious decision to balance family life with creative ambition. Rather than chasing the traditional Los Angeles path, he built his career largely outside of LA, commuting when needed and proving that proximity matters far less than preparation. His years on Nash Bridges became what he calls “the Don Johnson film school,” where he absorbed everything he could about directing, cinematography, sound, and production by simply asking to learn.

That on-set education shaped Bob’s writing philosophy. He believes that the only thing that truly matters in a screenplay—especially a spec—is story. Not structure formulas. Not screenwriting “rules.” Story. He openly admits he’s never read a screenwriting book, instead learning by reading produced scripts, watching films, and studying what doesn’t work as much as what does. In his words, many scripts fail because writers force stories into rigid templates instead of letting the narrative breathe naturally.

One of Bob’s most defining moments came early in his writing career, when the first script he ever wrote was optioned by a studio. The sudden validation inflated his ego—something he now looks back on as a painful but necessary lesson. When the project ultimately fell apart, he gained perspective: most optioned scripts never get made, and success in Hollywood is rarely fast or permanent. That experience reshaped how he approached relationships, collaboration, and professionalism.

Bob’s willingness to break conventional rules eventually became his calling card. His script Extracurricular Activity intentionally defied standard storytelling expectations—the inciting incident occurs long before the movie begins, the protagonist isn’t clearly defined, and traditional character arcs are ignored. Instead of hurting him, that boldness got him noticed. The script later became a produced feature nearly two decades after it was written, proving that originality often has a longer shelf life than trend-chasing.

In addition to studio and indie work, Bob has carved out a successful niche writing Hallmark films. He explains that while the brand has clear guidelines, there’s still room for strong character work and emotional storytelling if you understand the sandbox you’re playing in. Hallmark didn’t limit his creativity—it rewarded his ability to tell compelling stories within defined boundaries, a skill many writers overlook.

Perhaps Bob’s most valuable insight is his perspective on networking. He rejects the idea of transactional relationships, emphasizing that real careers are built through genuine human connection. Networking, he says, isn’t about asking what someone can do for you—it’s about building trust over time. His career, sustained across decades, genres, and mediums, stands as proof that being easy to work with is just as important as being talented.

In the end, Bob Saenz represents the kind of career many writers aspire to but rarely hear about—one built not on hype, but on consistency, curiosity, and respect for the craft.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:47
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:54
On this episode, I have with me a actor and screenwriter who has written big budget feature films. He has written indie films. He has pitched a Hallmark and he has also acted in indie films. And he's also acted in David Fincher zodiac, which I didn't even know, as we find out about this during this interview, he did the voice of a video game that I loved as a kid, siphon filter. Does anybody remember siphon filter? He was the voice of the bad guy. I didn't even realize until I saw his IMDb, I played the hell out of that game as a kid growing up, and we talk all about that as well with guest, Bob Saenz. Hey Bob, thanks a lot for coming on the show.

Bob Saenz 2:35
You're welcome,

Dave Bullis 2:37
You know, again, you're a person I've actually want to have on here for a while. The you know, the reason being, you're a working screenwriter, you're out there actually doing it. You're always posting great advice. So, you know, I wanted to ask about your whole career. And there's one thing I have to ask about right off the bat, I see on here, on your in your acting credits, actually. So when I'm gonna talk about writing, you actually did voices for the game siphon filter and siphon filter three.

Bob Saenz 3:03
I did voices really for all the siphon filter games, I was the main bad guy. I was the man in the shadows.

Dave Bullis 3:10
Oh, that's it, Bob. I'm blown away. I think we have to end the whole conversation right now. I don't think we can peak on this.

Bob Saenz 3:16
I sat in the Sony studios in Foster City, California, with a big gold microphone and did that deep, low voice for that guy who was the Senate, who ended up being the senator who was also the man in the shadows. It was really fun. And what was great about it is they actually paid me extra to stay an hour and make death sounds for people who got shot and got lit on fire and fell off cliffs and stuff.

Dave Bullis 3:48
You know, it's just funny, because I remember playing siphon filter in I don't, when did that come out? 2000 I think, yeah, I remember playing that. And I just now it just, it is amazing how small this world has become, because now I remember, I can remember everything about that first game, especially that first game, and that fact that I saw on your IMDB, that you did voices for it. I was like, I got to talk to Bob about this. I just have to,

Bob Saenz 4:16
Well, I still get, every once in a while, the the random email from somebody who's a siphon filter fan. And there's actually some siphon filter, you know, group that gets together and plays or something, and they have a magazine or something, and had had me, wanted to interview me for for it was, it was really funny. It's like the video game that wouldn't die,

Dave Bullis 4:42
Yeah, and that's just a testament to how popular the game was, because again, that first one, especially, I always remember that first one was, was just phenomenal. And I remember playing that and just being blown away. Actually, I remember it coming, you know what? The first time I heard about it, I ordered a pizza from Pizza Hut, and they had a. Free disc glued to the top of the box for the original PlayStation. And I actually remember it going, Oh, wow, this is pretty cool. And I popped it in, and that's how I played. So for the first time,

Bob Saenz 5:09
That's, I've never heard that before, that's pretty cool.

Dave Bullis 5:14
Yeah, it's, actually, it's really cool.

Bob Saenz 5:18
Wow, yeah, no, it's, it was a fun it was a fun gig, and it was really in the people were so nice. The guys that produced the game, the guy was the voice director, the whole the whole thing was just first class, and it was really fun.

Dave Bullis 5:33
So Bob, just to sort of continue with this, you know, when you moved out to LA, was one of your original

Bob Saenz 5:41
I don't, well, let's get, let's get something really straight. I don't live in LA.

Dave Bullis 5:46
Oh, you don't. Where do you live?

Bob Saenz 5:49
I live in San Francisco. I have, I have, I have had this career totally out of LA.

Dave Bullis 5:59
So, so So let me ask you, Bob, are the rents is in San Francisco as bad as they say?

Bob Saenz 6:07
Yes, absolutely. My, my, they're worse up here than they are in LA up here is like the, the worst rents, I think, in the country, except for, like, Manhattan, the My daughter has a friend who has a two bedroom apartment in Mountain View, right near Google. That's like $4,200 a month.

Dave Bullis 6:33
Wow, you know, I mean, I just, I have a friend who also lives out there. He was actually on this podcast episode four, I think, David Huell, and he lives out in San Francisco. And, I mean, he and I were talking one day, and he was just saying, how rented, how bad the rents were out there in San Francisco. So more power to you Bob, more power to you because you're actually, you know, living in, you know, in your career.

Bob Saenz 6:56
I, I'm, I'm very fortunate I have a house. So it's, it's, that's part of the reason I don't also go to LA. I also don't go to LA because I'm happy where I am, and I'm four hours away, and I've never missed an appointment and and I can come up here and and work out of my house and and go down there when I have to.

Dave Bullis 7:19
So do you just plan, like, a long drive that day? Do you just take? Just get in your car and drive there?

Bob Saenz 7:23
I leave. I leave at five in the morning. I get there about at the latest, about 1030 in the morning, and I can get a whole lot of work done. And I usually stay for four or five days. This time I stayed for five days. Last time, I sleep for five days, because I had a bunch of meetings, and then we had two days of shooting, of pickups and and, and VFX and EFX on one of my movies.

Dave Bullis 7:51
Oh, that's good when, again, it's cool. You live so close. And because I've always wondered, you know, if you, if you do live semi close to LA, like you caught you, do you? How do you actually get out there? Because sometimes I've heard people say, Listen, I get in with a bunch of other people. We all go down, you know, they or they, they do something other, some other means of transportation to get there, but, but it, no, it's just good that you live so close and and so sort of taking a step back. The reason I was asking this was when you decided to move out to California, you know, because you were, now you're in San Francisco, you know, what did you go out there with the original goal of being an actor?

Bob Saenz 8:24
Oh, I'm for I was born in California, so I've always been here, but I've always wanted to be an actor for women. I was a little kid, and I was, I AM, from the time I was about, oh, 16 years old, I was doing like professional plays and musicals around San Francisco in the Bay Area, and was in the midst of a long run in a show called The fantastics, when I met my wife and I was it was one of those things where you say, Do I want to spend the rest of my life with this woman, or do I want to be a poor actor? And I decided I would spend the rest of my life with my wife. We've been married 42 years, and so when I was about four years old, after I had worked in a real job, but a good job, but a real job, I went to her and said, You know what? We got money in the bank, and it looks like the company I'm working for is not going to be around much longer, because they've been bought by somebody else, and they're screwing them. I think I want to be an actor again. And when I picked her up off the floor, she said, Okay, and I decided. Then people told me, You can't do it. You're it's you're not. You're living in San Francisco. You can't be a professional actor at your age. You can't, you know, you can't just change. And I said, why not? And I've spent my life saying, why not, to people, So it all worked. I got my my sag card in a movie called Angels in the Outfield with one line try throwing it over the plate. And I, I just marketed myself and and, and was relentless in my pursuit, and ended up with a with a recurring, very, very, very small recurring role on a TV series that's CB series that shot up here called Nash Bridges with Don Johnson and Cheech Marin. And I used my time my six years on that TV show to work on my writing and get it out to some of the producers on that show. And it kind of all snowballed from there.

Dave Bullis 10:53
So when you were reading the script for Nash Bridges like each week, you know, you would get the script for the latest episode, would you sort of analyze it in different ways? Bob like, would you sort of put on, like a writer's hat and say, you know, I wonder how

Bob Saenz 11:06
I would, I said to myself, I can write better than this crap, and, and, and, which was funny, because guys like Damon lindwaff were writing for Nash at the time, but, but I, I wrote an episode in edge. That's what I did, and they did buy it, but I got a lot of encouragements from some people, and that was, that's what spurred me on to write my first spec feature, which I optioned. So it's, it's been a weird trip.

Dave Bullis 11:44
You know, that kind of reminds me of Mike Beerman when I, when I had him on the show a few episodes ago, you know, he actually said, when he took his daughter out to those auditions, he actually got the script and said, Hell, I can write better than this. And, you know, we're both a part of that, of that writers group on Facebook. But it just, it's just funny to me, because, you know, whenever, because, I mean, I said the same thing to myself, honestly, Bob, I said to myself, hey, I can write or make a movie better than this. And that's sort of what sparked it. And then I got, then it was proved to me, was, oh, no, I can't. I just, but no, I'm just joking around. I'm but

Bob Saenz 12:18
What's funny.What's funny about the whole thing was, is, I've been a lot of movies, and I've done a lot of just small parts and things, but I've really enjoyed myself. And there are a lot of movies I've been in that aren't even on the IMDB. Thing, I don't even, I don't add things to the IMDB if, if they're on there, it's not because I put them there. It's because somebody else did. But I've been a lot of movies, and I've done, you know, some, some pretty fun acting jobs, but I found out I started writing, that I was a way better writer than I was an actor. I have a very small range right now. I'm holding my hands about three inches apart, and that's, you know, that's basically my range as an actor and and so I found out I was a much better rider, so I'm enjoying that a lot more.

Dave Bullis 13:03
So I have to ask, when you were on the set of Nash Nash Bridges was Don Johnson, a cool, as cool of a guy as he seems.

Bob Saenz 13:11
Don Johnson has a reputation, and sometimes I think unfairly, of being a not great guy. And I all I can do is, all I can go by is, is my personal experiences with him, and he was terrific to me, completely terrific to me. And I was there for six years, and couldn't have been treated better. I came away from that show with a lot of really good lifelong friends, including, you know, we don't talk now, but including, Don if I ran into him, I'm sure we would be just fine. It's, it was great experience. I was glad it was over after six years, because I wanted to move on and do some writing. But I it was a great experience. I wouldn't have traded for anything. I called it the Don Johnson film school. I learned everything I could learn on that set. It was great.

Dave Bullis 14:11
I like that name, Bob, the Don Johnson film school. I like that a lot. It seems like a hell of a film school.

Bob Saenz 14:17
It was, it was great. I went to him, I think, in the second season, and I said, Look, I want to learn everything I can about how this is all done. So when I'm not working, but I'm here, can I hang around on set and watch and see how each department does what they do? And he made a little sign of the cross, and said, bless you. Of course you can. And and said, that's how I learned. So I did. I at one point, I learned about why they use, you know, which lens they use, and, and I got to carry around the Steadicam one afternoon. And, and I learned from the sound. Eyes, one of the great sound guys ever, and I learned about lighting and what the grips do, and electrical and you name it, I just and props and everybody I got to know, and learned from them how they did what they did. It was an unbelievably great experience, and it's really helped me as a writer,

Dave Bullis 15:21
And that's something I wanted to actually follow up with Bob, is when you're on set like that, and you know, you're the you're, you're, you know, seeing everything through the lens of an actor, how has that helped your writing when you're writing characters?

Bob Saenz 15:34
Oh, a ton. It helps a ton. Because I've, I've been on the the other side of getting scripts where people don't sound real, like you get dialog, but, you know, was written without anybody ever saying it out loud. And and you, you know, it's, it's helped me not as much with character, because I really love to develop character in my my scripts, but it's helped me a lot with dialog, a lot in having dialog sound as real and natural as it can be, it also helped by you know, by learning how to do exposition, rather than you know, having you know on the nose dialog drives me nuts. So it's, it's, it's, really it did. Did you answer your question? Yes?

Dave Bullis 16:27
Because, you know, I imagine when you're, when you're actually sitting down to actually write, you know, a screenplay, and you're fleshing out these characters. I am, you know, we all sort of imagine an actor playing that role, and I imagine you when you're, when you're writing this that you're probably saying, well, probably saying, Well, what is the actor going to be doing while they're saying this stuff? Should they be sitting there that hopefully this isn't sort of like a, what they call a floating head scene, you know what? I mean, there's, I'm sure, because you're, you know, you have that acting background, you could sort of take that a step further and say, Well, you know, I know what actors are going to say in a scene like this. They want to be moving around or or they want to be doing something I do.

Bob Saenz 17:04
I really It sounds so fun. It's going to sound really funny, but I don't think about actors at all when I write, I think about servicing the story. To me, everything is about story. I've talked to so many producers and worked with so many people. Now, after all the movies that that I have been more than fortunate enough to have produced that that the only thing that matters, especially in a spec script, is story they want to know. If they've got a serviceable story that people are going to want to see. And that's when I write a spec. That's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for something that that services the story. Yes, if I if, if the character in that story needs to move around during a scene rather than just sit Yes, and I think about those things Absolutely. What would the character be doing in this situation? They're not going to be, yeah, floating hands Absolutely, but I'm, I'm a really, really story guy, and man, I never think of, I never imagined any actor playing a role. I want to write roles that actors want to play, and that that, to me, is more important.

Dave Bullis 18:19
So So Bob, when you actually started to write your own screenplays, did you grab any sort of books or anything that to sort of use as, like a sort of a guide or anything when you, when you, when you started writing?

Bob Saenz 18:31
No, I didn't. I've never read a screenwriting book. I know it's an announcement of most people, and they think, wow, I read lots of scripts, and I looked for scripts for for films that I loved, and thought, how did they do it? I read anybody's friends and neighbors or whoever had a script, and read scripts to look at, and most of them are bad, and looked at bad scripts and thought, how can I keep from doing some of these things, and I, I just wrote. The only thing I did was get myself a copy of final draft and to so that the so that the formatting was correct. But otherwise, no, I didn't. I didn't read any screenwriting books.

Dave Bullis 19:18
Well, that's amazing, because usually, you know, you do you do something like you go out, maybe you buy, you know, the big three that people usually buy.

Bob Saenz 19:27
Well, yes, infield, and, and the the the awful save the cat and, and whatever else you know, hero's journey, I guess. And then, no, I didn't, but I've seen save the cat wreck more scripts than you can imagine.

Dave Bullis 19:57
Oh, yeah. So, so well, actually, you know that? It's actually interesting, because, you know, whenever I'm in a screen readers group and somebody brings up, like, the hero's journey or this or state of the cat, or what have you, I usually tell them just to sort of put that aside. Because I just, like you said, it usually wrecks a lot more scripts. The reason being is they're always trying to force these things to happen that aren't organically there, if you know what I mean.

Bob Saenz 20:21
Well, like I said before, about story, when you do that, you can't service your story. You cannot you can't make a story fit into a preconceived box, especially a good story we could talk about, you know, some later on, some of the things later that where I've completely ignored story stories, story rule, supposed, story rules and and written some scripts that I just wanted to write, even though they broke, you know, a ton of the story rules and those, you know, the one of those scripts is the script that got me noticed in Hollywood. I broke almost every single supposed story rule going and I didn't do it on purpose. I just wrote a script that I wanted to see.

Dave Bullis 21:11
So, so let's talk about that, Bob, you know, you broke every rule. You know, what was the script and what were a lot of these rules that you broke?

Bob Saenz 21:19
Oh, it's called extracurricular activity. It just, we just finished filming the effect sequences this last weekend. It should be out in the fall, maybe, I think, and, and it's, it was a dream come true for me, because it was one of my favorite scripts I ever wrote, and the director and I, well, not I didn't matter what I thought, but the director pretty much saw it for what I saw it for, and wanted to have it be basically what I had originally written, you know, 18 years ago. So it's, been kind of like one of those dream come true deals. So and how did I break rules? Okay, the inciting incident happens. You know, 40 pages before the movie starts, the main character, the protagonist. Well, you don't even know who the protagonist is most of the movie. It could be one guy, it could be another guy, but they both could be the antagonist you don't know and and the the main character, who you don't know if is the antagonist of the protagonist has no arc.

Dave Bullis 22:41
So yeah, I could see that definitely breaking, seeing what rules that broke. You know, it reminds me to Bob, you know, it's kind of like, what, what Tarantino did Reservoir Dogs, what Sean Shane Black did with lethal weapon. It was almost like, you know, I, by the way, I loved, I actually love to read the script, not only see them.

Bob Saenz 23:01
Oh, hey, no one. When we get when we get done, give me your email.

Dave Bullis 23:05
Oh, cool. Thank you. I'm always interested in seeing you again, like, like you were just mentioning it sort of broke all the rules, but you use it as sort of, you use the break in, which I always think is great, because I think what happens is a lot of these screenwriters write with all these rules and maybe to certain ways, and they don't make the script theirs. So what happens is they keep it's almost like imagine if 99 screenwriters all were writing almost the same thing with the same description, and that one other person actually follows their own voice. And maybe it's a little off the wall and it doesn't adhere to to these formatting, you know what I mean, like this whole description thing, and all of a sudden it's like, wow, look at this, and it's so different from the pack. All because they just, you know, didn't go too crazy, but they, they were able to differentiate, differentiate themselves.

Bob Saenz 23:58
Well, I went pretty crazy, but, but the thing about it was, is that I never let anybody tell me you have to do something some way. My answer is, again, always want, why not? And I wanted to write something that was, you know, that was me. That was different. It was something that I thought might get the interest of some people, and it did. It's, it's literally the it, even though it is what I would consider to be and well, well, not what I would consider to be. As much I had somebody who, who was one of the hallmark producer, read it and tell me it was the anti Hallmark film and and which I felt pretty good about, but she liked it so much that she hired me to write a hallmark film. So, you know, you just never know where, where something you know one of your samples is going to lead you.

Dave Bullis 24:58
Yeah, that's very true. Lot. And speaking of writing for Hallmark, and you've actually had written a few movies for them,

Bob Saenz 25:05
Ohh yes, I have, I have, I have up to right now. I have three Christmas movies for them. I'm probably will have a fourth this year. We'll see. I've got a couple of other films for them, and I'm writing one right now. So they've been great that they've been terrific to me and and the Hallmark doesn't produce any films. There are a bunch of feeder production companies that that feed hallmarks, gigantic appetite for films, and I've worked for a few of them, and it's been, it's been really a joy to work with some of these wonderful production companies and wonderful people, and work with the Hallmark people who are terrifically nice, and it's, you know, they have A brand and and within that brand, and within the rules for those brands, you know you have to color between the lines, and if you learn how to do that and still tell a good story, you know they want to work with you.

Dave Bullis 26:12
So Bob, that's actually my next question was, when you're writing for Hallmark, do they let you come in and pitch your own ideas, or do they maybe have something they want you to work on already.

Bob Saenz 26:23
No, they let you pitch your own idea. Well, they don't the production companies let you pitch your own ideas. Yeah. And then they pitch your ideas to Hallmark. And if Hallmark, you know, goes for one, then you know, they come back and and you write it, or you will, you write a write a spec for them. And I've also gotten jobs where they came. Production companies came to me and said, here's our idea. We want to hire you to write it. So they've come all different ways.

Dave Bullis 26:54
And again, that that's that power of networking. And it's, you know, obviously, you know, you've been able to use all these scripts as calling cards. And again, you have such a great reputation. You're able to sort of parlay that in other work, which is something you know we usually talk about on this podcast, is how your network is your net worth, and basically how you're able to sort of use your network by doing good work is really critical of your success.

Bob Saenz 27:20
Networking is a really, really interesting thing, and I do it because I like people, and I like to, I like, you know, it's, it's fun to, it's fun to network and find new friends. But networking isn't about finding somebody in the industry and saying, Now, what can you do for me? Networking is all about building relationships that are true, that you meet people and you, and you get to know people and you, and you build relationships where you actually like each other. I have a lot of great friends that I also work with that that if they you know that we can be honest with each other and work together and with great relationships. And I it's easier to be nice than it is to be not nice. Not being not nice takes a lot of work. And I like people, and I like to work with people and and the best writers, you'll always notice that work over and over again are the ones that know how to cooperate, understand the business, understand that everything they write is going to get rewritten no matter what. And and work with the people and learn from the people that they're dealing with. It's it's so easy to to get jaded, and it's so easy to get upset about all the rejections that you get when you're in this because I've had millions of them. But you get to a point where you also realize that the rejection isn't personal that they don't they're not doing it because they want to get back at you. They're doing it for a million other reasons that you you have no control over. So you have to, you have to set yourself up in a business where that business do, the business is you, and your scripts are like your inventory, and you have to sell you, and the only way you can do that is being nice and cooperative and a good person. And it makes, it makes a huge difference

Dave Bullis 29:37
So that that sort of you know mythos, so to speak, of the screenwriter who is so most like a rambling alcoholic or something, and and going into meetings and and just sort of making demands those days are far over. Right Bob?

Bob Saenz 30:02
Oh, absolutely.

Dave Bullis 30:05
Or the idea

Bob Saenz 30:06
There's, there's a million scripts out there, and I'm not kidding. I mean, there's a million scripts out there, and there are 1000s and 1000s of screenwriters who want to be, who want to do this. And yes, if somebody is like, Uber talented, you know, they may put up for with them for a while, while they are successful, but, you know, they stop being successful and their phones stop ringing because they're not easy to work with. Nobody wants to work with with, with people who aren't easy to work with. And and you just, you just learn to, you know, learn to it. You just be. You treat people the way you want to be treated. And it makes a huge difference.

Dave Bullis 30:51
Yeah, I concur Bob. And, you know, there was a friend of mine when he does a lot of film work, both as like a producer and a director, and something he instituted finally, when he was doing a lot of, like indie film. And by indie film, you know, I'll just classify that. I'm gonna throw a number out there, 100,000 and under. Now, obviously I'm just throwing a number out there, but it's basically he would always be astonished when, like, first time actors or first time writers would show up and they'd have an ego, and he never got it, because they haven't done anything. How do you even know, what if you're good or not? Basically, you know. And so what do you do is he actually made a rule, no egos, and he would send that message, I'm sorry, Bob,

Bob Saenz 31:35
That's a great rule,

Dave Bullis 31:38
And I can I agree completely, because one of the things I said to him was that is such a great idea. Because what he says is, in a very nice way, he tells everybody, look, we all have had various successes and failures in this industry. Some of us have worked in this industry for 1015, years. Some people have just started working in this industry last week. So let's just all sort of, you know, leave all that at the door and just focus on this project right now, for better or worse,

Bob Saenz 32:06
Oh, I and, and it's yes. And what's so interesting about it is I had really early success with my writing. I optioned the first script I ever wrote to a studio, and, boy, my ego went out of bounds. It was out of control. And it was, I regret it like crazy, because I think I really alienated some people who were my friends at the time, because I was just such a jerk and and then the movie didn't get made, and which is, you know, now that I find out that 99% of all option films don't get made, it makes sense that it didn't get made because it's, you know, you're, if you're that lucky, 1% that's great, but, but at the time, it was just like this huge slap in The face and an unbelievable lesson to me that to never do anything like that again. And I'm kind of grateful now that it didn't happen at the time, because I could have been a real jerk and and I just it was a really, really sobering experience,

Dave Bullis 33:20
You know, but I can imagine, though, you know, Bob, when you have such success so quickly, it was almost intoxicating, you know what? I mean, it's almost like, almost a validation.

Bob Saenz 33:32
Oh, it was a validation. I mean, it still was a validation that I could write. But it was, you know, I hate to say this, it was like, too soon, it was like three months after I wrote my first spec script, it ended up at Polygram, the Polygram studios to get made and only because universal and MCA bought Polygram Corporation for their music catalog, and then canceled their movie business and dumped all their projects that I got it back. It wasn't on its way to get made and and it was just this unbelievable shock of of this happening that that kind of jolted me back to reality and out of the the jerkiness stupor I was in,

Dave Bullis 34:25
Because, again, I was just imagining, you know, especially when you get success that quickly, you know, have you ever seen the movie overnight? That's a documentary about Troy Duffy,

Bob Saenz 34:35
Yes, I have. I did, and I it's, it's painful to watch,

Dave Bullis 34:44
Yes, especially with everything that you hear about the Weinsteins, but they, in that film, look like the good guys, because they gave that guy everything, and he just pissed it all away.

Bob Saenz 34:59
Yep, yeah, dude, and it was, was, it was the, yeah, I didn't quite get that bad. I didn't, I didn't get to that point, but, but, yeah, it's a, you know, it's a, it's a movie that there's a couple of movies about making movies that everyone should watch. What one of them is, is that one, the other one is a movie that I absolutely love called American movie. Have you seen that?

Dave Bullis 35:28
You know, a couple listeners keep telling me to watch it. I have not seen it yet

Bob Saenz 35:32
That you need to watch that. It's about a guy making an ultra low budget film. It's a terrific film.

Dave Bullis 35:39
You know, I'm going to make sure to rent that right now, after we're off the phone, Bob, I'm going to make sure to go either rent that or buy it off Amazon.

Bob Saenz 35:50
It's a great documentary just this. I actually it's one of the few documentaries that I own. So it's, it's well worth it.

Dave Bullis 36:01
Yeah, I'm definitely gonna check that out. And I've, you know, an overnight, as we were talking about, that's it. That's another great one. And there's always that joke about making a movie, because for those of the for those who've actually done it, actually gone through the stake of making a movie, they you there's a whole nother level of enjoyment, because you're like, I've been at that there's production meetings where tempers are flaring, or I've been at that point where you're so frustrated, you go, Why the hell did I start this in the first place?

Bob Saenz 36:31
Well, everybody's got to live through a first movie, and that's the truth. I mean, if you're a director or a producer or something, you have to live through that first movie and see all those mistakes that you make. First movies are like, you know, in the most part, first scripts, they're, they're mostly to to teach you a lesson, and not, you know, go much further than that.

Dave Bullis 37:02
Yeah, and you know that that's, that's, you know, another thing I always talk about, too, is meet how you make a movie. And always, you know, I don't mean this way it sounds, but always tell people to aim low for their first movie, because they, you know, you tell somebody maybe, go make a movie, and suddenly they want to a movie with $10 million of stunts and explosions. You're like, no, no. Think, think, think smaller so you can actually get it accomplished.

Bob Saenz 37:26
Well, yeah, there's the thing about movies nowadays, and it's really sad, I think, is the mid budget movie has disappeared. There are movies that that, that the studios make, that are 100 and $200 million 100 million dollars, and then there's the $5 million movie and lower. And there's not a whole heck of a lot in between. And there's about six, six entities that can make the $200 million movies and and there's tons of producers that can make the $5 million movies. And yet, people, the new writers, insist on writing these great big budget things that that there's no market for. There's zero market for. Last year, somebody was telling me this. I'm not sure that this is completely true, but last year they said in 2016 Disney didn't buy one spec script?

Dave Bullis 38:24
Yeah, I could definitely see that.

Bob Saenz 38:30
Yeah, it's, that's the way it is right now. So if you're gonna write a first movie, write it $5 million or less.

Dave Bullis 38:40
Yeah, I concur, you know. And as we talk about Disney and buying all these spec scripts, you know, I've seen that before, too, where, you know, it's, I was listening to a interview, actually, with the Weinstein Brothers, and they actually said the best way to make money in the movie business is just have a whole library of films, not make another one, but you're just selling the licenses and the content rights for, you know, temporarily selling them, just renting them out. And that's how they they would make a lot of money in the film industry. So when I hear stuff about, like Disney, like that, you know, I imagine either they're pulling back from already established properties, and I think Beauty and the Beast,

Bob Saenz 39:20
Oh, they're all they're making. Yeah, all they're making is things that are in there from their back catalog, or the Marvel which they own, or Star Wars, which they own, or Lucas, which they own, and and then they're using, you know, whatever else you know, they made Pete. They remade Pete's Dragon last year. They, I mean, it's just there. They have their they're going to do their their ride movies like Pirates of the Caribbean, and they're going to and they're going to stay away from trying to do anything that doesn't have an already established audience.

Dave Bullis 39:59
Yeah, and that's why, again, like guys like us, you know, we like you're just saying, you know, the under $5 million budget, there's a lot more producers there. And you know, also, as we talk about, you know, Netflix and Hulu and all these other, you know, distribution channels. There's a lot more ways to get your stuff out there,

Bob Saenz 40:27
But still, Netflix and Hulu and Amazon, if they're doing things with, you know, buying films or making films, they're all in that $5 billion or less category. I'm not talking I'm not talking about the TV, the the series that they that they end up buying, but those kinds of things. But Netflix and Hulu and Amazon are also buying 99% of what they buy from established writers, producers, directors, production companies and people like that. When they all start, first started, they were going to be open to, you know, all kinds of new people. And found out that most new scripts, you know, are are from from unknown writers are pretty bad, and had to regroup and decide to do it the way the studios do it, through agents and and production companies and that way. So it's, it's not as open as as some people think it is.

Dave Bullis 41:24
That's an extremely good point, Bob, because I think you're absolutely right, you know, because what happens is, when they do go out there and see all these unknown writers, you know, maybe they're unknown for a reason. Maybe their scripts have never gotten better. For instance, I actually, you know, have known, known writers, and they they've written like, 1011, 12 screenplays, and every single one of them, Bob is exactly the same as the one before it. And what I mean by that is, is literally, it's the same type of characters in the same type of situation, in the same type of genre, and it's just the same old the kids go in a house that supposedly haunted, to prove it's not haunted. But it turns out it is haunted, and they also dying one by one. And that is that pretty much sums up all, like 10-11, of those scripts.

Bob Saenz 42:17
When Amazon first got started, they had that, let's be open to everyone, and let's find I think their idea behind it was, let's try and get all the great scripts that the studios miss. So they opened up to everyone, and they had, they said, please send us your stuff and we'll read it all, and we'll be buying from unknowns. And they lost a million dollars on that, that deal, and pretty much decided, okay, this isn't the way it works. We need to go to established producers and production companies and writers and stuff and and they realize that that having a an open submission policy left them open to getting hundreds of 1000s, hundreds of 1000s of scripts that they had to hire people to read.

Dave Bullis 43:14
And most of those scripts probably were read before through various, you know, gatekeepers, or maybe screen script consultants, packages and script consultants and stuff like that. And they all got passes, you know, so

Bob Saenz 43:28
Everybody's they all did. They all did. I can't I There may have been one or two that that Amazon looked at and and did something with. But out of the couple of 100,000 that they got. That's not a, you know, that's not a very good percentage,

Dave Bullis 43:47
Yeah, that's probably, what, less than 1%

Bob Saenz 43:50
Oh, it's probably less than a 10th of a percent. You know. The problem is, is that, is that, that there are when you set up an open submission like that, is you also set yourself up for people who have unrealistic expectations, that they figure, once they they are able to openly submit, that, you know, they can sit back and wait for the movie to get made. And this is a this is an industry especially for writers. This is an industry of unbelievable patience. You have to be so patient to try and be a screenwriter. It's, it's unbelievable that the average time between the time you write a script and the time that it gets made, if it does get made, is about eight years. In the case of extracurricular activity, it was 18 years. So you know, it's. It's there is no instant gratification in this business, none. There are no shortcuts to get something done, and there's no instant gratification. It is a long haul, nose to the grindstone, thick skin business.

Dave Bullis 45:20
And you know, actually, I wanted to ask you too about that. You mentioned notice of the grindstone. I want to ask about your process, Bob, and how you know you write screenplays. So when, when you know you wake up in the morning, or if you have a morning routine, what are some of the most important things that you do before you start a screenplay? I mean, you just start with a treatment. Do you just go right into it. You outline it all.

Bob Saenz 45:42
I come up with a concept, and the concepts can come from anywhere. I've gotten concepts from for my scripts, from something my kids said to me. I've gotten concepts from my scripts with conversations with friends. I've gotten concepts by reading an article in in a newspaper, or, or, you know, just thinking about what ifs and, or seeing something when I'm out somewhere, and thinking, you know, what if and, and coming up with concepts for, for, for whatever I'm going to write next, and, and once I do that, if it's a subject matter that I don't know anything about, one of the first things I do is hands on research. I actually go out and find people that do what I'm going to be writing about. And I asked them about how they do it and what they do. I don't go on wick, you know, on, on Wikipedia, on on, on the internet, or look at, you know, on the internet, I actually go out and find people. I've been, I've been on ride alongs with cops. I've interviewed police chiefs. I've interviewed doctors. I've gone into hospitals, I've I've gone I've done all kinds of things to get a good idea about how things are done in the area I'm going to write about, so that when I write it, it has its basis in reality, even if I'm going to write something that you know is completely out in left field.

Dave Bullis 47:15
So Bob, how do you approach like people, like, you know, the police and the chief of police, how do you actually approach them about maybe being able to sort of to get them to open up?

Bob Saenz 47:27
I call them and they say, Hi, I'm writing a script about this and this and this, and I want to get it right. And everybody says, Finally, somebody who wants to get what we do right, and they open up and talk to you. I was supposed to talk to a police chief and a small town police chief, because I wrote something that had a small town police chief, police chief in it, and I wanted to get stories from him and ideas from him and how it all works. And I was supposed to have 20 minutes with him, and I ended up with almost two hours because we were having such a good time. And it was, it was unbelievably helpful in in getting me to get a realistic idea of all kinds of different things that ended up in the script. So, yeah, people, you'd be surprised. The people really want you to get what they do, right? So they will open up and talk to you. Yes, I've had people say, no, no, I'm too busy. Or no, that's ridiculous, but, you know, you can always find somebody.

Dave Bullis 48:33
So, you know, that's actually something that I've done too. You know, actually one of the things that I did Bob, I went on Korea at one time, and I actually just asked, Hey, is there any police officers that would want to talk to me? And this is the reason why, and this is what I'm doing. And I got like, four or five responses, and I was able to talk to them, and, you know, it was amazing. And just, you know, and that's, that's what I did. I didn't actually call up anybody in particular. I just put that on courier.

Bob Saenz 48:57
I think that's great. And you just do what you have to do. You do. You know you do. And you might know somebody that knows, somebody that does what you're looking for and, and it's just, it's a matter of just again, networking and and finding out about things, and then, if you have, you know, if you're doing your, your your, you know. And if I come up against something that in a script that I that I don't know about, I'll make an effort to find out about it, not just make it up. I read a script one time, unfortunately, from another writer that took place in a hospital, and when I finished reading it, I called him and I said, Have you ever been in a hospital? Because nothing in this script would ever happen in a hospital, ever. And he said to me, but it's a movie, and that was the end of our conversation.

Dave Bullis 50:03
I just imagine the the hospital fight from machete, where the where they know all the stuff's happening in the hospital, but then again, it's a movie, right? Yeah, but, but, but, you know, but that's of a movie. And machete, I went in expecting, you know, you know, so over the top, you know, so, I mean, I You probably can't go in too deep, but was it just, like things like, was it a shootout? Was it just,

Bob Saenz 50:29
No, it was just, it was it was they were commandeering an operating room when nobody was in there, which you couldn't possibly ever do. It was, it was just a lot of things like that. It was just, it was just ridiculous. And, and there was, it was just, you know, you could have a shootout in an operating room if you wanted to. That would be fine, you know, but you have to portray the operating room correctly, and how they up, how they work. That's not and Machete is great. I mean, that's, that's Rodriguez, and that's Danny Trejo. And by the way, Danny Trejo is a great guy, but that's, that's a whole nother thing, that's, you suspend your belief in something like that.

Dave Bullis 51:15
So have you actually worked with, with, with Danny Trejo Bob?

Bob Saenz 51:19
I was on a TV series for six years called Nash Bridges, where I again, like I had a really, really, really small part, but there had so many great guest stars. I sat down with Robert Rodriguez one day and and picked his brain for about 2030, minutes. Trejo was on, and he was great. What a nice guy, just a terrific guy. And I got to meet some, you know, I got to meet some, some really, really fabulous people. And some people that, to me, were like icons. One of my favorite movies in the entire world is the producers. And the guy that played Han Friedkin, Kenneth Mars guested on Nash once, and I got to sit down with him. And it was, it was unbelievable. And James Hong from who played, you know, low pan in big trouble, Little China guest started, and I got to tell him, you know, I'm not worthy. But it was, it was really, it was really an amazing experience to be on that show was kind of Forrest Gumpy. I got to, you know, be there and meet and see all this wonderful stuff.

Dave Bullis 52:33
You can't see this Bob, because it's a podcast, but to my right, on the on my right side wall, here is a signed James Hong headshot of him as lo pan, that I actually got a few years ago at this event that he actually did here in Philadelphia, Chinatown. It was at this meet and greet thing, and he was one of the he was the honored guest, and I got to meet him, and it was, and he's absolutely phenomenal,

Bob Saenz 52:58
Yeah, it's just great. He's really funny, and he's really, you know, he I said, I walked up to him and and I said, Hey, I got to tell you something. And he looked at me and went, low pan.

Dave Bullis 53:15
So it was great. Yeah, you're Cassandra's father in Wayne's World, too. And he goes, Oh, yeah.

Bob Saenz 53:23
No, never came. Never came up. No, no. All I could think about is, is Jack Burton going with fire coming out of his mouth. And that was it that was for me

Dave Bullis 53:42
And see that's such a great a great story, Bob. Because, I mean, I, I've met him, actually twice. And you know, everyone who's always met him has always been like, wow, he's just, he is phenomenal. And when I met him, he was right before Kung Fu, Panda, two or three. I can't remember which one, but he actually showed a little clip. And he goes, he goes, Listen, everybody. He goes, You can't video this, or I'm gonna get beat up by Pixar. He's like, Pixar is gonna come to my house and abduct me. He goes, so don't, you can't, you can't actually show this. And it was just, it was just funny, because you know the James Hong delivery of that line. So picture what I just said as James Hong. And now it's funny.

Bob Saenz 54:19
Yes, I can completely picture but anyway, he was great, and he was fun on the show, and it was really wonderful to, you know, sit down and talk to him. So I've had, it's been, it's been a really kind of fun, you know, experience to be an actor and doing these things. I've worked with some unbelievable directors. I've worked with, I've been lucky enough to work with Coppola twice, and then as an actor, and Ron Howard once, and Clint Eastwood twice, and David Fincher once, in an amazing experience. And I just it's just been like Kismet. And thank you, God, you know, having me be able to have these experiences, because I came away from them happy and amazingly educated about what I saw and took in.

Dave Bullis 55:13
So what was that project that you worked on with Fincher?

Bob Saenz 55:21
I'm in zodiac,

Dave Bullis 55:21
Really,

Bob Saenz 55:21
Yeah, in the I got, it's great. I got a letter from Warner Brothers right after I did it, and it said, you're in the you're in the movie. Come down to the premiere. We can't wait to see you, looking forward to it. We'll give you the information when we get it. And then a couple of weeks later, I got a letter saying they cut 18 minutes out of the movie, and your three minutes are in those 18 minutes. And thank you very much, and please don't come to the premiere. So I thought, Okay, well, I've been cut out of, you know, worst movies. And I, you know, it was one of those things you can't take the experience away, but I was hoping, and then I got a check, a residual check, and if you're not in a movie, you shouldn't get a residual check. So I called my agent, and I said, I got a residual check, but I don't supposed to get it. I don't want to cash it. And she said, Hold on. And she checked, and she came back and said, You're in the director's cut, and you do get a residual check, so go ahead and cash it, and please send me my 10% so I'm in the director's cut. So now it's now don't watch that two and a half three hour movie in the director's cut again to look for two minutes of me, but it was fun. And Fincher is just, he is the greatest. He was so much fun, and so just a terrific guy. I really enjoyed it.

Dave Bullis 56:55
So what does, what does he do? Bob, that is that is different. That sort of makes him Fincher, if you know what I mean, is it just by directing,

Bob Saenz 57:04
I've told, I've told, I've told the story before on another podcast, so I'm not going to tell the entire story. He cast me and then brought me in as an extra, not telling me. He cast me because the character was nervous and and then sprung it on me the day of the shoot. And and then, and then, had me, had me look at the script. And then, once I felt halfway comfortable, said, Okay, we're not using the script. We're going to do this all, and we're going to ad lib everything. And then he said, Oh, by the way, the real guy who you're portraying was a chain smoker. Do you smoke? I said, No. And he said, You do now. And it just went to really help my performance. He was great. I mean, he was, he was, he was, couldn't have been, couldn't have been a better experience as an actor. Couldn't have been. It's, it was one for the books I'm it's, it's, you know, it's one of those great memories that no one could ever take away from you.

Dave Bullis 58:17
So just a quick follow up, Bob, one last venture question. Did how many takes did you do of the scenes? Because he we all, I've heard stories about Fincher where he does a lot of takes of the same thing. Did you have to do a lot of Did you do a lot of takes that day?

Bob Saenz 58:31
I Yes, many multiple, multiple, multiples. But the greatest story was, I play a cab driver. Then one of the scenes, I was actually driving the cab, and Jake Gyllenhaal runs across Mission Street to the Chronicle building, and all he does is run across and and he hits my cab with the palm of his hand as he's running because I'm to get stop is trying to run across the street. And I stopped, and about take 74 Gyllenhaal walked up to the window of the cab and looked at me and said, Do you want to do that again? And I said, Hey, he goes, I don't. And he walked over to Finch and said, I'm done. I'm through with running across the street. And yeah, 7070. Takes. So about running across the street.

Dave Bullis 59:26
So, so I just want to just sort of reiterate that, because we kind of lost the connection there for a second. So Jake, but what? Jake went back to Fincher and just said, I'm done,

Bob Saenz 59:35
Yeah, I'm done with this.

Dave Bullis 59:40
See stories like that. Bob, that that that story is why I like that, why I like filmmaking. It's just stories like that. And again, like you said, an experience you're going to take away for the rest of your life. Oh yeah, And Bob, we had a few questions come in, and we've answered a lot of them as just in the course of conversation, as it naturally happens. But there is, there is one question that I thought I would ask, and I'm sorry I didn't. I don't know who actually asked this. I will find out in a second. But just about marketing yourself over the years and promotion. This came in through this screenwriters who can actually write a Facebook forum. I wanted to ask about that. What are you so what are some of the things that you've done? And advice for writers, for marketing and promotion over the years, for people who want to promote their own work,

Bob Saenz 1:00:36
Anything you can do that's not illegal or stupid. That's, that's my, that's, that's pretty much my whole, you know, my whole outlook on, on marketing yourself. I did it a lot through networking, because I was lucky enough to be an actor and be on sets and network with people and get to know people first before I said, Oh, by the way, I'm writing something. I didn't walk up to, you know, people I met right away and say, oh, you know, by the way, I'm, you know, I'm a writer. Will you read my script and make me, you know, and buy to make me a millionaire? Which I've seen people do. I again, I establish relationships with people. Networking is incredibly important. It takes a long time, but it's really the best way querying producers going on IMDb Pro, invest. You have to if you're going to be in business for yourself, like I said before, in your marketing yourself, you have to invest in your business. You can't be cheap about it. So you have to buy things like IMDb Pro, and you got to go on there, and you've got to look at the producers who produce the kind of scripts that you're writing, and query them, you know. And 99% of the time, you're going to get no answer or a pass. But the thing about it is, that all it takes is one person to believe in you and believe in what you do, one person in it to begin with. That's all it took for me, one person. And I think that that the problem is, is that people don't want to do the hard work that it takes to find that one person. So you query producers, and you keep querying them, you query you query managers, agents. Agents aren't going to want to talk to you. Don't query agents. They don't want you. They don't need you there. They've got what they want. If you're when you get established, then they'll talk to you. But managers, managers will talk to you. There's lists of managers on Done Deal pro there's lists of managers that you can find on the internet, find the ones that are specializing in the kind of things that you're writing, and query them. And then, you know, do it again, and then do it again, not too not too quickly, but, you know, and keep it up and keep I used to keep a big chart of who I sent stuff to and when I sent stuff to him, and what the response was. So I so I was educated and knew, you know, who I'd sent stuff to before, so I wasn't an idiot and sent the same thing out to them again.

Dave Bullis 1:03:23
So it's like, they're like, Man, this, this guy sent me the same thing again. I didn't like it the first time.

Bob Saenz 1:03:28
Yeah, yeah. You don't want to do that, because actually, surprisingly enough, some of these places do actually keep track and, and, and you don't want to be one of the people that they see something from and just delete. So you want to be you have to be smart and business like about it. It's and and, and Cory and networking and, and some of the contests are good too. I've had a friend who, I've got a couple of friends who did really well in the nickel, and they got managers out of it, and they got some writing assignments out of it. So the nickels a great contest to do well in Austin is another great contest to do well in. And after that, it kind of falls off precipitously that, you know that there are so many screenwriting contests now that producers really don't care if it's Austin or or the nickel. They care if it is anything else. There's not a whole lot of interest. And then the blacklist. Every once in a while, can do something on the blacklist, not very often, because it's like anything else, it's you had the same chance as you do with a query or anything else. If you do well, that doesn't mean that somebody's going to option your thing, and then you can do well and and sometimes somebody will option something, but then again, a lot of most options still get made. So it's, it's, it's a it's trial and error, it's being organized, and it's a. Figuring out how to network. You can net work on Twitter. You can network on Facebook. I've met a lot of really wonderful people on the writing in the writing group on on Facebook, and I've met some incredible people who are going to be my lifelong friends on Twitter, who are, who are really some fine, fine writers that I really respect. So you just never know.

Dave Bullis 1:05:28
Yeah, that's very true, Bob. I mean, hey, look, we're friends. And you know, we were friends for a while, and you know now we're, we're being able to chat like this,

Bob Saenz 1:05:38
Which is great. I like your like I said before, I really like your podcast. You you ask good questions, and you listen and you ask good follow up questions, and you have interesting people on. They can't ask for more than that.

Dave Bullis 1:05:53
Oh, thank you, Bob. I really appreciate that. And it's, it's always good having, you know, amazing guests like you on, and, no, I mean, seriously. I mean, I'm sorry Bob?

Bob Saenz 1:06:03
I met, I had a young writer who wanted to come and have and have a drink with me. Last I was in LA and I it was late at night, and I said, Yes, I'd be happy to and he comes in and he says, Look, I'm just so in awe and all this stuff. And I said, stop, stop. I don't, I don't handle that well behind that doesn't work for me. Let's just sit like a couple of guys and talk about right and and that's Thank you for saying I'm amazing. I just, I just, I am. I am, who I am, and it doesn't change from, you know, from person to person and and I love what I do, and I had so much incredible help when I was first getting started by some phenomenally talented, wonderfully influential people, that the least that I can do, as far as I'm concerned, is to give some of it back.

Dave Bullis 1:07:07
And we're all very appreciative of that, Bob, because, you know, I'm always fortunate again to find guests like that, who who are very interested in sort of doing, you know, podcasts like like mine, and, you know, trying to give back and and sharing the knowledge and the wisdom from from climbing those mountaintops, so to speak. And I've been very fortunate. I've had a lot of great guests on, yeah, so it's, it's, it's been, it's been a long journey.

Bob Saenz 1:07:34
It's great. We'll keep it up. I will continue to listen and and thanks for having me on. I really, I really appreciate it. It's, it's, I enjoy doing things like this. It's, it's always fun.

Bob Saenz 1:07:45
Bob, where can people find you out online?

Bob Saenz 1:07:49
You can find me online at, at, B, O, B, S and Z, at, on Twitter, I have a blog that I am not really good about keeping up with all the time. But some, some buddy that rates screenwriting blogs somewhere rated me in the top 10, which I was amazed at. And it's called, it's Bob Saenz B, O, B, S, A, E, N, Z.com/blog, and I'm on Facebook, but and at Bob Saenz, B, O, B, S, A, E, N, Z, and I will, and I'm not, I know, and I'm not the Bob Saenz, who's the insurance salesman in Texas?

Dave Bullis 1:08:36
Oh, that's who I thought I was talking to. Yeah, damn, I I will link to all that in the show notes everyone, by the way, so everyone who wants to talk to Bob, I'm going to link to all that.

Bob Saenz 1:08:49
Yeah, and, and, and you can actually, I have a, I have a business email which is, which is on my website. So it's not anything that is, isn't out there. It's Bob at, bobsaenz.com,

Dave Bullis 1:09:07
Bob Saenz, I want to say thank you so much for coming on, and this has been an absolute blast.

Bob Saenz 1:09:18
My pleasure. Thank you for having me

Dave Bullis 1:09:21
Take care, Bob.

Bob Saenz 1:09:23
Thank you. Bye!

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