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BPS 269: The Godfather of Ninja and Cannon Films with Sam Firstenberg

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Alex Ferrari 0:00
I like to welcome to the show Sam Firstenberg. How're you doing Sam?

Sam Firstenberg 0:14
Excellent, thank you. I'm glad to be with you.

Alex Ferrari 0:17
Thank you so much for reaching out to me I was I was excited when I got your email. I'm like, oh my god, I gotta talk to Sam, I gotta I gotta get into the, into the the stories, I'm sure you have one or two stories about your time at Canon and all of your directing and filmmaking career throughout the 80s 90s. And even in the 70s, as well. But the but specifically, we're gonna focus on the 80s and 90s, and a lot of the cool stuff you did back in those days. But before we get started, how did you get started in this business?

Sam Firstenberg 0:49
I was one of those kids who love movies love cinema. And actually one of the, you know, there's always this one kid who goes and see the movies and comes back to the neighborhood and tells the movie to the other kids. So this was me. So that the answer I don't know that they love to cinema is I don't know where it comes in the love of storytelling. But I grew up in Israel and from Jerusalem. And I had no knowledge. We actually we didn't have television even then, when I was a kid in the 50s. And when I finished high school and the mandatory service in the military in Israel, so by the time I finished 21, I decided I'm going to Hollywood to study film, to learn how to make movies. So that that's basically it. I I traveled from Israel to Los Angeles and enrolled in film school. And I started to learn how how we make film, luckily, or accidentally or luckily, I met famous Israeli producer Menahem Golan did in Israel. He was very famous. And I met him here, here in Los Angeles in Hollywood. And, and I started working in, in in with him and other movies, all kinds of odd jobs. Assistant helper griep electric, anything in the beginning. So that's how I started into the business of movie.

Alex Ferrari 2:30
So you started with with with him and started just doing any little odd jobs and he was already was he? I'm for everyone listening. He started he was one of the cofounders of the legendary canon films.

Sam Firstenberg 2:45
Correct. But they were but that time was was still 1972 to 1973. They were there was no connection between him and Canon at the time. Okay. He was producing movies in Israel together with his cousin Euro Global's and they came here to Hollywood, they sold the movie, because I've learned and they they created the small company, the name of the company was America Europe picture. And they produced the movie he directed they produced a movie with Tony Curtis was called Lipkin a gangster movies. So in the 70s, you know, they had a company in Israel, no film, and they had this little company. America picture that produced lab care then produced another movie with Robert show diamonds, and few little movies. They only purchased the purchase cannot they did not establish canon canon was at a company in New York, a small distribution says company of movies in New York, and they purchased the company I believe in in the beginning of the 80s 1979 1980. The purchase they took over this company can all and then they took it. They took it and made it into a huge company.

Alex Ferrari 4:05
Right! So isn't so what but what was canon doing prior to them getting it? I mean, they were just just a normal small little distributor, right? They weren't doing genres stuff.

Sam Firstenberg 4:13
Correct. They were they were producers and distributors. They produce some movies. The base was in Israel in Tel Aviv. This was the base. And they produce a lot of Israeli movies. They made a lot of local Hebrew speaking movies. In conjunction with making this movie, let's say the dimension lab diamonds with Robert Shaw and was Assistant Director in the movie diamond. They produce the movie which is called the Passover plot. So a mixture of Israeli movies in some kind of international movies, English speaking international movies, but they were very good at sales. They used to go every year to confirm is divided into all the other film festivals and film market and sell those movies that they produce. And they became very knowledgeable. And with this process of selling movie internationally, up to this point, they always had the dream, both of them always had the dream to go to Hollywood one day to make it in Hollywood. And eventually they did. So the opportunity was they produced an Israel kind of successful movie operation tangible about that, and table operation. And they sold it to one of the major studios here. And I guess my guess is with the money of the sale, they bought this company, Cannon, they also had another hit. It was lemon PepsiCo, it was a Hebrew speaking movie that produced by the director they produce was directed by Bob Davidson, and also a movie that made a lot of money. So I guess that with the profits of both of those movies, they they were able to buy or to take over cannon.

Alex Ferrari 6:07
So how did they? How did they start? Since you were basically they're working with them. How did they make the decision to start going into genre? Because everything you're telling me right now is none of its really genre. Yeah, maybe a gangster movie here and there but not genre as we knew it.

Sam Firstenberg 6:25
Correct, correct. They, when they produced movies in Israel, there were mainly local comedy, that cater to the local audience. Very much like movies in Turkey or in Greece or in, in Egypt, those kinds of local comedies that deal with local subjects. And then they kind of always flirted with action a little bit. As I say, Operation Thunderbolt was a big action movie actually military action. But they had the SPN as movies they flirted with action when they came to when they took over. Ken on it was in the 80s 1980s 1981 What was very popular at the time here in in Hollywood for the low budget independent is to make low budget horror pictures. This was the standard there were many many of them done very low budget, you know, not much has changed not much has changed. Now much was my the source by the sorcerer but other movies by the excesses, sorry, influenced by the movie the excesses, but others, you know, there there were so many, and cannot, those two partners and cousins and 100 year old that was they decided to go this route of low budget, because it's really cheap to make a horror picture. But they were not very successful in terms of it was not part of their culture they in grew up in in America, that horror picture is a very American genre, it's very specific American genre, which is not definitely not that, at that time, was made in other countries around the world. And but they they it didn't really catch because they didn't understand the essence they then they didn't grow up with a horror picture. So they decided at some point to switch to action. And their first the first action movie they produced was called enter the Ninja.

Alex Ferrari 8:31
So they so where did the Where did the ninja come from? Because essentially, they popularized the concept of a ninja in America. I mean, I was I dressed as a ninja I went to ninja school. I was at throwing knives I mean, I didn't um Chuck's I mean yeah, there's Bruce Lee would not but the ninja was they brought it to America.

Sam Firstenberg 8:50
Definitely. So next you know next to the horror picture there was a an another genre floating around Of course you had from Hong Kong the martial art movie the Hong Kong the Chinese Hong Kong martial art movies, which we used to call them karate movies or kung fu movies. And but there was a beginning Chuck Norris, octagon. And then Enter the Dragon with Bruce Lee. So there was this other general martial art going parallel to the, to the horror pictures, but not as big you know, there were a few in one day. And I can go on used to, to hear ideas. People came to him with scrapes and idea. And the story is the legend is I did not witness it. There's one day Mike stone walked into the office and Mike stone one of it was one of the champions. You know, as well as Chuck Norris and Tadashi and Bruce Lee. And and he pitched to Menahem Golan this idea to make a movie about ninja And now ninja was a as you say was a novel idea was a different idea because we all knew about samurai movies we you know that scene Akira Kurosawa Seven Samurai you Jimbo and and we all knew about the Americans martial art movie entered the dragon was the big one and but ninja nobody ever heard he says a specific you know sub genre of the in Japan in the Japanese mythology of martial art in the Japanese culture and nobody ever thought later on I found out that here and there in Hong Kong movies there was some appearance of energy or energy here there's bad guys oh sure here and there very very few various spurs. But here Mike stone pitch to the idea. He probably had a story storyline I wasn't there and may not have gone I loved it and he said okay, this I understand actually, for the international market that's something that I understand and they produced and they went to the they did the filming in the Philippines they filmed it in the filament and they did it and came back editing and they sold it won pretty well much they sold it in a much better way that they sold that they did with the the horse right so I guess you know I'm trying to play to play to be in his brain so I guess they decided okay, we know what we don't want to do we understand we can do action and this new gimmick for them it was a gimmick ninja works people buy it you know the buyers buy it was Franco Nero was the star of enter the Ninja. And show Kosugi was the villain and Mike stone choreograph the fight and, and suddenly it was you know that the audiences around around the world not only here suddenly they saw this noble new idea and enjoy a nice gimmick tonight. As a nice look the the wardrobe. Yeah, it was it was very Oh my God, when you're a kid, at the beginning, when you're this is the legend. This is the story. Oh, Mike Stone, nothing to learn and how it was born.

Alex Ferrari 12:27
And now the funny thing is, is when you're a child, I mean, especially a kid growing up in the 80s and you see a ninja for the first time and you see the throwing star and the sword and it's like, oh, my it was just it was just a revelation. But I mean, nowadays there's so much when we you know nowadays they have 1000 things but back then there wasn't anything like that. Especially not thing on TV. No movies, it was a it was a thing. And I think what I mean and I think this is obvious cannons explosion in the in the world marketplace had to do also with the timing of the home video market, which that they fed off of each other and exploded Correct?

Sam Firstenberg 13:10
Definitely. So remember Ken on eventually, when we are looking in hindsight became the biggest of the independent company, but companies but it was not alone. There was a bunch of those companies, Shapiro Glickenhaus, am entertainment, corral call, and many, many more. And all of them were producing some of them specialized in horror only some of them specialize in in kind of comedies. Some of them specialize in what they used to call TNA movies,

Alex Ferrari 13:42
Right! Soft core, yes, soft core erotica.

Sam Firstenberg 13:47
There are many of them, and suddenly came in a new market, a new source of movie which was the home video market. The rental people went to the corner stores, they rented the movie. The major studios did not pay attention to this to this money, they're scarce. And but those little companies immediately they realized for them, it was a goldmine. And they started to produce movies, and they sold it so there was money there was no problem. The risk was very long. So this was the beginning of the 80s. They took very low risk. And worldwide not only here in the North America, not only in the United States, Canada, but worldwide those those this industry of renting cassettes to home was and you know the shops that had to buy those cassettes, they had to pay a lot of money.

Alex Ferrari 14:40
I worked at them. I worked at a video store. Oh yeah, we 10 to $20 Oh, I think wholesale we used to pay 75 60 to 75 bucks for wholesale retail was 100 books at least four copies of every movie business before blockbuster bought 1000 copies of everything.

Sam Firstenberg 15:02
It was a business so cannon thrive because of this, because of this money because of this market. And they started to, to produce more and more movies to the point that at some years, they made about 30 or 40 movies a year.

Alex Ferrari 15:18
Jesus, and it was it's so funny too, because I remember I worked in the video store 88 to 92. So I was right in the middle of the heyday of video stores, there were no DVDs, any of that stuff. But I remember because I was the manager. I will you know, we buy we buy, you know, four copies of American Ninja. Each one of those would make probably on on on return 400 bucks 500 bucks per and then sometimes you would get a movie like faces of death, which would which give you 2000 Because everybody wanted to read that one. But it was true. Our store was full of disk, Orion Pictures and canon and Kericho and then slowly the studio's figured out, they're like oh, maybe we should start throwing our movies up

Sam Firstenberg 16:11
Exactly what happened eventually the major switches he realized they say why are they making the money where we can make the money we have the power at the beginning of the 80s the mindset of the studios theater theatrical you know they make money in theaters then they sell it to television to networks they make a little bit more money they sell it to the airlines they make little bit more money with the airlines but then they realize this what's happening here making good money up over there with the with the cassette with the whole video let's let's move in and and and then you had predator then you have got these decided let's make those the same movies a little bit bigger budget bigger stars or quality and and then we will take over this.

Alex Ferrari 17:00
Right. That's when the diehards and the lethal weapons and all of the all those those were all essentially genre movies but with

Sam Firstenberg 17:06
Genre with a better budget with a bigger budget

Alex Ferrari 17:09
With bigger budgets. Exactly it I mean, it was I look back on those days very fondly working and everyone listening to the show knows how much I loved working in my video store. And I worked. I worked two video stores. I worked at a movie theater for two weeks, and I quit. Because I hated cleaning up the popcorn. The video store was a much better gig.

Sam Firstenberg 17:33
But But Alex the the studio is rigid, more or less. Right? So many departments. So when studio make a movie, it's rigid, independent companies at the time and the 80s they went crazy because there was so much money. There's so many Oh yeah. And basically they told the directors you guys go and do whatever you want. We don't have time to control you and to bother you. Right. Toby Hooper Joselito Sheldon is you guys weren't you basically had into the into the scene and they started doing Friday the 13th eventually also

Alex Ferrari 18:13
Got picked up Yeah,

Sam Firstenberg 18:14
Bigger movies came out of this big bigger idea.

Alex Ferrari 18:17
Right, The Texas Chainsaw Massacre and all these kinds of stuff.

Sam Firstenberg 18:20
Chainsaw massacre, Terminator came out of this genre.

Alex Ferrari 18:23
Yeah, exactly. The Jim Cameron, it was it was really a fun, interesting time because it was just those always a time when when the studios are in trouble. And they can't figure out or they have to fill a lot of content. They give a lot of freedom and creativity to the creators that happened in the 70s with the Scorsese consumers, right and easy writer. But in the 80s, there was so much need for content. I remember we used to be only able to buy two to three movies a week. That's all that was all that was being released. Like that was it and then now I mean, it's there's three movies a minute being released. And that was the other thing too for people listening and like you were saying that the studios are rigid. It took them 12 years before they opened up a streaming service after Netflix launched same Exactly. So Netflix made all the money for a decade, got a huge head start on them. And now they have a major competitor that they're losing talent to creativity actors are all losing them to Netflix because Netflix was ahead

Sam Firstenberg 19:29
It really it's a it's a it's a tide that repeat itself. The only thing was really we were lucky there was there was good money at the time in the 80s. I was not the budget. The movies that we made are not we're not tremendous budget, but we're not bad when you talk about like a couple two, 3 million in that time. Yeah, because if you take American Ninja, for instance, yeah, we shot it nine weeks, six days a week with two units, some some Halo six unit Nine weeks, nine weeks, nine weeks of six day nine weeks of with two unit two full units. That's an additional unit. Full unit. The crew was huge, like 250 people, we had anything we wanted. So they were really medium budget, and the streaming don't have this, you know, unless unless they make a event movie or television series, they they don't give those budgets. And today, young filmmakers have to make movies in five weeks, four weeks,

Alex Ferrari 20:32
Five days. It's it's, it's remarkable. But I mean, also back then, the the barrier to entry was a technology, it was so expensive to own any of the technology to make it where now, it's not about technology. It's not now it's about distribution. It's about actually getting your stuff seen. I always tell people in the 80s if you finished a movie, good, bad or indifferent, you made money with it, you sold it. It was sold. If you figured if you flush out a 35 millimeter movie, finished it, it went into theaters. And then when the whole middle market hit it definitely what I mean I saw stuff that I'm like, how did this get produced?

Sam Firstenberg 21:13
So Golan is a very funny quality. I think in the movie electric booger the secret of Cannon, he said. And they quoted him, but it was quote from the 80s. He said, I don't if you make a movie and you don't make any money, you probably stupid I don't understand.

Alex Ferrari 21:33
But But he had it. So his business model was low budget, you know, so we're talking, I mean, 1 million to $3 million. Which, right? Yeah. And above a little bit, depending on how big it was even more Electric Boogaloo was, like $6 million. Oh, yeah. But that you had a huge hit with break in the first one. And then there was a circumstances. And then of course, he did Masters of the Universe, which was a whole other thing. That's a whole other conversation

Sam Firstenberg 21:59
Another level of Cannon on which it's not exactly what we are talking about. Sure. But that was like, I think that was their hayday. But they had this model of, you know, that, hayday, they invented I know, they invented the so called PRISM that really took them to the marketplace, took them to their distributors. And and offer them this poster, that poster this idea, even before they had the script, if they saw that the buyer, you know, kind of liked it. Here's a poster with Chuck Norris, you liked it, they came back to the office, they pre sold it. And then they came to the office, they roughly in a rush way they wrote the script. And he went and made the movie to fulfill the promise of the poster and sell concept. So they came up with a pre sale. They knew how much money to invest on in the movie according to the pre sales to the amount of money

Alex Ferrari 22:57
So they they're the ones that came up with pre sales. We had no idea that Cannon was the guy those guys were the ones because when I heard about the pre sales, I mean pre sales now are are rare. They're there but it does happen especially if you have a relationship with the buyers and you're long standing. But generally me because before you literally could go to AFM with a poster this will do to open up a shop and go do you want this new movie with with Michael Duda coffin it great $50,000 for your territory $100,000 for your territory $250,000 For Germany and and, and they would sell up so they came home they're like, Okay, we could invest. Let's invest a million dollars because we have 1,000,005 it pre sales. And then we also have other places we can make some more money off of it. I mean, it's a win win.

Sam Firstenberg 23:45
Right this will this was the model this was the system. Beside the Menahem Golan in your world was there was another partner Danny Dean Berg, he was the head of sales. And they kind of invented it. Everybody adapted the system all the independent companies have pre selling. But yes, there was so much need for product all over the world for the for this new emerging market of home video. It was revolutionary for young people. Today. It's hard to understand when you see the streaming, the idea that you can take a cassette, bring it home, start the movie or whatever you want. You can pause it go rewind it rewind it restart. It was revolutionary. It's hard today today's how to grasp.

Alex Ferrari 24:32
Nobody was right. I literally had to go see Ghostbusters 34 times in the theater when I when it came out as a kid because but when the VHS came out, I bought it. And I watched it a million times at home and I would stop it. We rewind it. I could play it back. I could play the scene I loved again again. It was something that you know kids today really don't understand because now they're like well, I just had opened up my phone and everything that's ever been made is accessible to my fingertips. i It was revolutionary and people love that idea and that you can go out and rent 2,3,4 movies a weekend.

Sam Firstenberg 25:06
And it was equal in, in Los Angeles. Yep. And in some small village in Africa. In Africa, Far East, a little hot around the cafe. The video had the video machine, you know, so the village and the machine or every home and the machines are not expensive. It was a cheap.

Alex Ferrari 25:28
It was. It was. And I try to explain to people to back and we're still only talking in the VHS days when DVD it it was even cheaper to make things and when it was cheaper to produce the DVDs than it was to create the VHS is you could you can make 1000 of them in a minute. And it used to take a lot longer to do VHS is and I tell people like That's why sniper 7,8,9 were pre made and released because they knew they were going to make five or $6 million in the DVD market. But then in 05 06 It started to dwindle. And then streaming came along and then it just it destroyed. It destroyed that market. And I think that everyone I think it was basically from 1982, early 2000s It was a goldmine. Everybody was making money

Sam Firstenberg 26:19
We call the type of movies that we are talking about Friday the 13 American Ninja we are calling them that genre, low budget independent movies of the 80s in the first half of the 90s Right. So this was the era 15 years and then the studio's realized it's not it was not the end of the this industry but the studio started to take over in the middle of the 90s and they said they came they started to come up with bigger budget predator etc. True lies a terminator they started to take over the market of course they have more power or more financial power better product etc. Eventually they took over and they created the relationship with Blockbuster and it was in a movie became a business have a bigger budget now pushed away pushed away the smaller companies

Alex Ferrari 27:20
Right that's why Orion went under that that time and Cannon eventually call it fair there everybody my guy but they were making care Kericho was making to Terminator two, Total Recall. You know, Orion was doing Robocop and won four or five Oscars in the course of a decade. I mean, it was an Kuroko and made some big big moves. Oh huge movies they made Yeah, absolutely. So American Ninja. So So American Ninja which I just I you know when I heard first of all the ninja came out and you did Revenge Of The Ninja came out and then the ninja started to come out. But then American Ninja you like wait a minute, an American Ninja and it was like a mind blowing thing. You're like holy cow and Michael Duda cough is up there and he's doing how did you how did how did American Ninja come up? Was that your idea? How did that come?

Sam Firstenberg 28:13
Not mine. So we so they made enter the Ninja. Let's just talk a little bit about the history of the company made enter the ninja and the movie did pretty well you know moderately well. And they immediately they wanted the sequel. They wanted to make Revenge Of The Ninja they like show Kosugi very much he was the villain in enter the Ninja. And but the Menahem Golan, which directed enter the ninja did not want you know the company was starting to take off and he was busy. He didn't want to do the secret. So he turned to me I just finished directing a movie that I sold to Cannon and this was the beginning of 1982. I just sold to the movie one more chance that I directed and produced and they turned to me said would you direct it? Of course we had relationship as I told you I was his assistant director. I was assistant director in the company for a while and and here they saw that I can make a movie. This was this one more chance movie with Kirstie Alley by the way. Yeah, he was there. And and they turned to me said would you direct the sequel? Okay, so we made Revenge Of The Ninja which show Kosugi he was the star. It was they liked it. It was kind of successful they wanted? No it wasn't for them. It was more than successful. It was the first movie that MGM picked up. It was the first movie from canon that the major company picked up for distribution Revenge Of The Ninja because it was distributed by MGM. Okay, theatrical

Alex Ferrari 29:51
I remember I remember the box. I remember the VHS box was the big

Sam Firstenberg 29:55
Kosugi flying in the sky with Yeah, and this was actually designed by MGM and now we are talking you know they really need the sequel to make money. So, you know because of some reason show Kosugi did not want did not feature he was in the third the ninja three the domination he was not the feature the feature character but Lucinda Dickey, it was a female ninja and and then suddenly there was the craze of breakdowns So, Cannon pose with, with ninjas in the braking and braking to Electric Boogaloo which I directed again a sequel to the sequel, but the interest of the buyer when I say the interest of the buyers around the world maybe the viewers with the with the break downs with the breaking was quite for favor of quickly and the buyers wanted more ninja maybe they weren't ninjas. By now everybody's making movies. And they call me back to the office Moran Colin Colin calls me to a meeting. And he says we need another ninja movie. But this time it's going to be American Ninja. So not my idea. The phrase came from him. I don't know how he came up with this. Now this is a revolution actually a revolutionary and crazy, really crazy idea. Because Ninja is really unique. We already mentioned Japan very unique to Japanese collector culture. You can have Brazilian martial art, but you don't have a Brazilian ninja. Capoeira which is a Brazilian sure there is a Chinese martial art there is Korean martial art but not ninja Ninja is specifically Japanese samurai and it's part of the Japanese mythology and curse of course. And as long as we made that the ninja at the first three ninja movies with some connection to Japanese culture it was fine okay, but here he comes with IDEA forget about the Japanese forget about the American Ninja no connection to Japan whatsoever and culture so it was his idea there was no script there was no nothing this was only this idea. And you know I was thrilled I like our American cinema I believe that American cinema is the most successful and this is as close as I will get to to a James Bond thing in western America ninja so now I mean that I'm about to do Western james Bond.

Alex Ferrari 32:31
Now so American Ninja did extremely well it blew it was it exploded didn't it and I know it killed it by at the video stores I mean just killed

Sam Firstenberg 32:41
We didn't know what's going to happen you know of course as I said for Cannon film for Cannon breaking was a major major moneymaker the first breaking and breaking through electrical are big,

Alex Ferrari 32:53
I mean massive you're talking about 10s of millions of dollars breaking

Sam Firstenberg 32:59
And both of them or I mean MGM the first breaking was distributed by MGM the second the one I directed was distributed by Tristar Columbia Tristar so being distribution

Alex Ferrari 33:10
So also canon at this point is getting major distribution from because I know they had an output deal with Warner Brothers. That's how they got a Bloodsport

Sam Firstenberg 33:18
You mentioned must serve the universe they were flirting little bit with the Spider Man No Spider Man Superman yeah okay yeah that's right they did they can and Superman Yeah, I think the already they they also already had the Chuck Norris under contract invasion USA missing in action. So they already had Chuck Norris working for them. And they had Charles Bronson working for them exclusively at this point. That was number two. That was number three. Number four. Yeah, so by then the company was being and we are and they send us to the Philippines to make it to Manila to make American Ninja. And you know, we chose microfluidic have to be the American Ninja the persona, the actor who personify American Ninja, and we are there and we start to make the movie and we kind of realize you never know you know, maybe while making a movie. Nobody knows if the movie will be a success will not be a success. The audience will like it will hate it. You don't know you're making. It's enigmatic. It's it's a question big question mark when you but there was a good feeling. We saw Michael on the screen, the charisma, the relationship between Michael Ludi Cove and Steve James. It was really the bond was working on screen. Even the love story Michael do the COVID through the air and so on and she came from Friday the 13. So this was working with and we put the movie together editing room and music. And actually they were so eager to continue the company that they send us to new before the movie was released. They send that to New Orleans Would Michael do the job and Steve James and myself to make the movie avenging force, which was really meant for Chuck Norris and he didn't want to do it. It was part of the invasion USA. franchise, but he didn't want to. So we are now in New Orleans shooting this movie filming this movie, avenging force. And then the American injure came out in theaters. And then we hear we kind of start to hear and read the explosion. Worldwide. I'm not talking about America that this is like the new terrorism. Or this is the new mini James Bond. Right now this week. Yep. Wow, this whole idea that the concept, the phrase, American Ninja, and it's exploding all over the world. And we are there in New Orleans. That truck just did not even participate in any promotion anything because we were like, it was just like, yeah, do you think it just really soy? It was it was huge. Immediately. Of course, there is a target audience as you yourself was the you're the target audience share the young people male boys teenager or up to the age 3540 This was the mainly then, of course there were also girls that like this. He was so handsome Michaels looks so good. And but but it was a target market. It hit the market. Right. Right on all over the world. Oh, yeah.

Alex Ferrari 36:33
What year was that? 8590. Right. So right when God VHS the video stores are exploding. There. I remember my first video store experience was 8182. And I rented for I think, no, it's actually later than that. By like 84. But I but I rented Flashdance. I never forgot it never forgot it. And we rented flash that's so around that time it was starting to it was starting to really take off blockbusters still years away. So the mom and pop stores are still running everything.

Sam Firstenberg 37:08
And, and in the case of American Ninja, it was theatrical all over the world. Yeah, it played theatrically in Africa, in Asia, or South America all over the world. Suddenly, it was if before there was some kind of, you know, the audience, I'm trying to terrorize here, though this has to relate to Japanese type of culture. Now, from this moment on, they didn't have to. It was a James Bond, American Ninja, you know, it was Hollywood movie the way they like, you know, the way most of the action movies in the world look like. And all American characters to the military in the military base, American military base, the story that happened? So I guess it was easy for the audiences around the world, the young people to identify. And this correction,

Alex Ferrari 38:02
Yeah, no, no question. And what I also always loved I absolutely love the chemistry between Michael and Steve. James. I mean, the late great Steve James. Well, I mean, he was so charismatic. On, on cam, I just never forgot him. You know, I looked him up a few years ago. And I heard that he had passed and I was very saddened by it. Because he was because I was looking at like, you know, maybe I could use him, I would love to have him in one of my movies. Just you know, to show respect to to a hero of mine when I was a child, his chemistry was amazing. Was all that like a lot of those lines in that stuff on set? Was that him and Michael just kind of, you know, riffing?

Sam Firstenberg 38:42
So yes, yes, you're right. When we cast when we when we were in the casting of American Ninja, and our main goal was to find this character American Ninja Johnstone, but also Jackson was already written the script, his body body sidekick, was written in the script. And we saw a lot of young people for both part, but and we had some hesitation with American Ninja with the jaw stone because everything is only shoulder. But let me tell you when Steve James walked in for the casting, and I spoke with him a little bit, and he was a martial artist and we read few lines. We didn't look anymore and he agreed when he agreed to do it. We didn't look anymore for this Jackson character. This was Steve James he will, you know, the Okay. big muscles, the shoulders that look like a Hercules.

Alex Ferrari 39:37
And he was funny. He was funny. He was smart and funny. He was smart and funny too.

Sam Firstenberg 39:42
So he had this, this, you know what you see eventually on the screen, and when we got to the Philippines, they they didn't have even chance to meet each other Michael Gove and Steve James up to the point because in the low budget, we don't have rehearsals. We don't have money for rehearsals. They don't give us any rehearsal time. So the first time you meet your fellow actor or the director many time with actor, it's on the set the first time, the first day of shooting, so they met on the set. And and they started, you know, as the scenes were developing, I don't remember exactly the order that we were shooting the scenes, but the chemistry, the chemistry between them or developing on and on. Now, Steve was a big fan of action movies. And and always I will say he's a historian of action movies, especially black action movies. You know, he had a big collection at home steam like 2000 movies, he was specializing in black cinema, sharing from the either black directors, black actors, silent from the silent era movies. But anyway, he was so this genre shaft, you know, he wanted to be the new chef. Basically, he could have been very familiar to. So back to your question many of the, of the one liners many of the mannerism he brought in. But now let me tell you something funny enough. Every time you know, I made you movies, it was teachings, I directed theater. But then at some point, he knew exactly in the series, some point he tears off his shirt, throws it away. To show his muscle ties it, Steve, you're not asking me. Every time in every movie, at some point, you take off your shirt and you continue. He said, What do you think you know how I'm working for this muscle? all this hard work I'm not going to show it off I have to show it off.

Alex Ferrari 41:49
Then how many and how many American ninjas were there. I think I remembered up to four was there more?

Sam Firstenberg 41:54
I directed only two of them. Okay. And then I directed with Michael and Steve the movie avenging for us. And I directed with Steve James another movie, which was completely different movie, which was called Riverbend. And this is not in the genre of the ninja. Not even martial art. It's kind of it's a racial tension movie in the south in the 60s.

Alex Ferrari 42:17
Oh, he must. That must have been awesome.

Sam Firstenberg 42:19
It's a very, and he was the lead. He was very happy. And then he took it was a little fight he took off his shirt.

Alex Ferrari 42:27
But obviously listen, if I looked like Steve James I would I would walk around without my shirt all the time.

Sam Firstenberg 42:31
I had the privilege to direct Steve James four times for movies.

Alex Ferrari 42:37
Like I said, if I look like Steve James, I would walk around without a shirt all the time. Did I mean absolutely. Absolutely. There would be no question anyone listening Google Steve James and you'll understand what I mean. Now was the biggest hit for for Cannon American Ninja. Oh, it was a Break in?

Sam Firstenberg 42:57
No, I I don't know exactly by number. Let's say they produced about 200 300 movies. She's the best, let's say the best. from a quality point of view. The best movie was runaway train. Oh, yeah. So people, most people agree that that's the best movie they made was runaway train with Eric Roberts, and Jon Voight. But a popularity they had few kind of franchises that were doing very well, the American Ninja, the Deathwish and the missing in action with Chuck Norris. So 111 franchise was Charles Bronson, which was doing very well one franchise with Chuck Norris, which was doing terrific and the third one was American engine. Now when the company the company ended up with bankruptcy and a lot of companies and people and creditors came after came to the court. They all they probably owe money to everybody to a lot of places and and the SS were divided. met everybody wanted American Ninja. It's a good title and eventually MGM won the entire American Ninja Series in and the breakdance series went to MGM so all the movies that either directors for Canon ended up with MGM but some movies ended up with Warner Brothers some ended up with Paramount and other creditor Charles Bronson was a creditor he gave us a lot of money Yes but this was the as the title American Ninja is the the you know as the title the title it the it is the thing that that came on headed as an essence not necessarily the movies but as a title. So yeah, the missing in action doesn't sound it sounds good but it's okay. Oh, that wish they did not originate as you know that wish was originated before Cannon

Alex Ferrari 45:00
Right, exactly. So then you did. So I remember when breakin came out because I was breakdancing as a kid back then and breakin was when it was big. It was breakin and Beat Street. Those were the two big breakdancing movies that came out that those years then came out break into the Electric Boogaloo with it, which I argue is probably the best title for a sequel ever. There's, I mean, it is Electric Boogaloo. Anytime you're trying to make a joke. I'm like, oh, yeah, we're gonna make lethal weapons three the Electric Boogaloo. Like you always throw Electric Boogaloo at the end of it. Who came up with Electric Boogaloo?

Sam Firstenberg 45:36
Okay, the phrase electric villa. There is a lot of discussion or disagreement about this. Now, there is an essay, somebody wrote an essay about this phrase electric Google, with the really research into history of America. Now, our two stars Shabba doo. Also, the late poor shabu also passed away this year. Shabba Doo and Michael shrimps, both of them kind of claim that they have invented it. But it has a deep root way back in the 50s. From what I read in the article, so either there was a Google was a type of dancing that goes all the way back to the 50s and 60s, and Shabba doo was very active in in the what was the television show The train the Soul Train? Yeah. And in the Soul Train, there were a lot of brigalow that there is a style of dancing that goes way back. How it was kind of combined and the shrimp and the name of the the street name of Michael chambers. So he's Michael Boogaloo shrimp chambers, Michael chambers. attached this, the word Bogota. But the combination of those two words and lectric boogle happened after the movie breaking and so sad probably in this because they already knew that they want to make a sequel. Even hookipa who did it though but who actually put it together for the movie? It was between men and Golan Shabba doo I had nothing to do with it when I was hired when I was asked to do the movie to directed the name braking to Electric Boogaloo was already on the script so I have nothing to do with it. So every every one of them in many discussions if you search the internet for interviews with the Shabba doo interviews with Sri with Michael Chang there or written interviews, you will find many different versions but but that to the best of my knowledge, the legend it It happened in Cannes Film Festival. When they were selling, breaking they took the three of them Lucinda and Shoba do and Michael took with them to can to promote the movie. And as they saw that the response of the buyer they immediately decided to do a sequel. And the legend the storytellers that right there in Cannes, it came together this breaking two Electric Boogaloo. I saw right about that it became a new meme of the 80s phrase of the 80s. And it was borrowed to many, many different purposes, including at some point somebody put a joke. We should write a Bible to Electric Boogaloo. Lately took a sinister turn, you know the it was adopted by the group. The Bigelow's that right, white supremacy grew Right, right believing in a sequel of the Civil War. Of course. The first they took the word he used to call it the second Civil War Electric Boogaloo. But then it was shortened to the Buggles the writers on a second in a second Civil War. Oh my god. I know. So the whole gamut from dancing to comedy to this to to a sinister

Alex Ferrari 49:10
Sinister doing white supremacy, you know, and it's, it's interesting also, because as artists, you just put things out there you don't know how it's going to be received and who's gonna take what and you just don't know as a as a, as a creator of these things. But, you know, I like to look at it. That term Electric Boogaloo is a very funny you know, a joke that a lot of people kind of throw out like the Bible to Electric Boogaloo and things like that that it's just so it's just one of those names that you you hear you never forget it. You hear bring it to the light you never forget it.

Sam Firstenberg 49:41
Right it has a good ring to it good sound and you know when they read the the sequel they when they make the when they made the documentary, right so immediately they took the title of the movie of this of the documentary is electric burger,

Alex Ferrari 49:57
Which exactly which summarizes everything Cannon did in two words. It was it's remarkable. And I do remember I never forgot this scene, and I know how you do it. But I'd love to I'd love to find out how you guys did it. How did turbo dance on the ceiling? You know, when he was dancing up on the wall? I know it's generally a big giant thing. I've seen Chris Nolan do it. It seemed Stanley Kubrick do it? But generally you don't have those kinds of budgets. So how the heck did you guys do it?

Sam Firstenberg 50:21
Okay. So this was not on the original script, this dance scene, this dance was not on the original screen, a script in one day, why even while I was shooting, we were shooting the movie in East LA more in the neighborhood, which is called Bowens height, which was the scene in the center of hip hop and breakdancing. I was called lunchtime and I was called back to the office office, the offices were in Hollywood. And man, I'm gonna say, come back. I had no idea why I'm coming back. Maybe he wants to fire me, maybe? I don't know. But anyway, he had this idea and said, Let's have shrimp dancing in the ceiling. Now, this is not a new idea. It was done by Fred Astaire. Yeah. Yeah, royal wedding, the name of the movie. So that's the first time it was done, then it was using Kubrick, right? In many horror pictures. And so basically, I knew what it is, it's, the mechanism is called gimbal. gimbal is kind of a simulator for flight simulator. You know, the, the, you know, the aerial photographers. So they actually, they practice in this gimbal, they put them on a set, and when it's too big, huge hoops, or rings, big one on rollers, and the chair is in the center, and then you can roll the dice big. So the cinematographer is upside down, or the pilot in training is upside down. Now, if you take this huge, huge gimbal, this huge of big rings, the Turing's on rollers, and and the set the room is built inside the camera is glued to the floor of the of the set, or kind of hooked not glued, necessarily here, you know, braced and if you turn the room around, the camera does not see the turning around because the camera goes around with the room. So for the camera, man, the room is always the straight, look straight. But dancer, you know, once you're 90 degree, let's say the camera man is to the right or to the left, the dancer is already on the wall, but the wall is horizontal to Earth. And when it is all the way up 180 degree the cover man is up on the way up, and the ceiling now is down. And he's dancing in the ceiling. But the camera doesn't see the difference. What you do need, everything has to be glued to the set. So all the for the pictures on the wall, everything all the books on the shelf, like behind you, you have books on the shelf, they have to be glued, because when it's up, they upside down, you know all the book to find. And if there is some scenery in the window, the scenery has to move in the window with the with the gimbal and all the lighting, you cannot have a change of light. So the lighting, everything moves together with this rotating and that's how it's done. And you know, it was done in a lot in horribly. This party I think that we got our particular gimbal from Elm Street.

Alex Ferrari 53:45
Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, I was I said what I was gonna say, Well, I West Craven because I know he did it for the blood, the blood coming out of the bed.

Sam Firstenberg 53:51
Okay, so he just read it was like it was somewhere around in the warehouse in Hollywood and

Alex Ferrari 53:56
They rented it. Okay, that makes sense.

Sam Firstenberg 53:59
It was built our our department builder said, Sure. And we hired the special cinematographer. You need the aerial cinematographer, because when they're upside down not to get confused. They are the aerial photo cinematographers the they they are used to this turning Iran upside down and

Alex Ferrari 54:18
I have to ask, I have to ask you, thank you for that. Because I mean, I always wonder like, they didn't have $10 million to build something like this. But I didn't think that they just had a couple of these lying around in LA because in LA there's everything I even shot. I shot I shot a television series.

Sam Firstenberg 54:34
Our operation Alex our operation was so cheap that it was turned by hand we didn't have multiple routes just kept pulling on this new drawing by hand manually.

Alex Ferrari 54:49
People always ask me like, should I move to LA I'm like, Look, you know, I just moved away from LA. I love LA but in LA you i mean i There's a standing spaceship set that I shot a whole series On that we just it's just a standing set that looks like aliens it's there you can't find that in Ohio

Sam Firstenberg 55:08
You know naturally the industry you know you you have to deal with cars you go to Detroit I mean, it's natural. The I worked all over the world I worked and filmed all over the world. And there is from a convenient point of view from a technical point of view and from personnel from people point of view. Expertise, there is no place in the world like Hollywood for me making film. I'm not talking maybe Hong Kong of course in Hong Kong in China, but London but there's nothing like all the get the generator goes down within 10 minutes you're another generator. Immediately easy. Somebody will find another generator in 10 minutes and it will be on the seven and working. You need this special lands crazy land on somewhere it is somewhere for rent within five or 10 minute drive is say it wardrobe. Obviously this is the center of this this type this industry it's the central point in the world for the for Western moviemaking is home. So everything is here you're right.

Alex Ferrari 56:12
Now what is the craziest story that you can say publicly from your times in cannon?

Sam Firstenberg 56:23
The truth is The truth is nothing extraordinary happened on the on any of the sets that I work not not a serious injury. Obviously nothing fatal. Nothing happened. No, no series we were so careful. And so methodic in working and in nothing crazy happened while filmmaking but let me tell you an interesting story that relates and does not realize and no, we were in the Philippines in Manila shooting Americans. And we stayed in a nice hotel Manila hotel in in Manila. This was the biggest hotel was beautiful. And Sunday we were not shooting they were not working. We are on the in the swimming pool most of the time in the swimming pool. So one of those Sundays, I am, you know, the crew is in the swimming pool. And next to me, Michael Rubicon. And we are kind of laying on those chairs in the sun and enjoying. And Michael is next to me. I'm here, Michael is suddenly I realize that something is wrong. There is a woman frantically running on the edge of the pool. And I look down and I see a girl that sees like a girl that like still like going up and down. She like she's drawn. And I look up and there was a lifeguard but he was completely busy. His attention was completely in another direction. Jesus. So I hit Michael right away. Michael was right next to me. Michael jumped with me into the pool. No question. So we both jumped into the pool and we dove all the way to by then the girl was all the way into one. And what we could see. So a nobody sees only this woman which apparently was the mother. And nobody else is it was just a moment that nobody was paying attention to what's happening in the water. And Michael and me were tagging all the way down to the bottom. We grew grew up the girl we bring there both of us put her on the edge by then she's not breathing anymore. So I'm trying or whatever crew to do whatever we do, but you know, I'm not the medic. I don't know what I'm doing and pushing and breath resuscitation. But then comes a young man. He says I'm a soldier. I'm a medic, we'll move over everybody let me I'm the only one in charge here right now. He was one of the soldiers American soldiers at the time. There are many many American soldiers in the Philippines. He took over as he knew what he was doing much better resuscitation push the on the chest. Water came out boom she came back and and that's it the girl came back back to life let's say and no we visited her that it was very exciting very emotional, you know to bring somebody from the dead back to life. She was her family was actually Chinese from Hong Kong they were visiting and vacationing over there. And later on I was in Hong Kong I visited visited with a family but there are a nice picture of Michael and me with a girl a day later this girl and and I consider it pretty crazy for that we were there shooting American Ninja at the right moment in the hotel in the day off to save some of his life. So I consider maybe The purpose of American the movie American Ninja was actually to save a girl.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:04
Right! So, so American Ninja actually saved, the American Ninja actually saved her.

Sam Firstenberg 1:00:13
Absolutely. Now, let me ask you, you didn't have that. You know, when we went to South Africa, we were talking about the explosion of American Ninja. And then we were shooting night hunter which became avenging force in New Orleans, all of us. And as we came back, and we finished editing, they already by then they needed a sequel to American Ninja badly because American Ninja was a huge need all over the world. They needed. And for some reason they had this time they had some money in South Africa. So apartheid South Africa, it was toward the end of apartheid, but still apartheid. And Steve was pretty worried. He said, Well, I'm a black person, I'm going out to South Africa. But he told me anyway, you're going ahead of the Euro pre production, call me and I want to go to hear from you every day. Tell me what it is in South Africa. Nobody knows. We went to South Africa. And this was really the the ending days of the apartheid. Actually, when I was there, there used to be three different identity identity identification card different ideas for different races, but by then they unified it to one car. There were no more different cards with different colors. So I um, you know, I told I called Steve I spoke with Steve you there there's still nothing to worry about. That is changing. The atmosphere is really changing. There is no more white beach Black Beach. It's it's changing, you know, really changing. Come up. So he came over in the first week, and in the weekend we went out in Johannesburg to the street. Now we didn't realize how big they became my political and Steve James became huge stars to the kids too. They were recognized everywhere. We couldn't walk in the street anymore. Because all the young African kids were running after them especially Steve that was tall and impressive. And in you know, probably for them they saw this hero black hero not only you know the African American hero or their it was something special. And they ran everywhere we went with Steve James it was impossible in the streets of Johannesburg.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:29
Wow. Amazing. Well, let me ask you so I asked I'm gonna ask you a few questions ask all my guests what is what advice would you give a filmmaker trying to to make it today's business?

Sam Firstenberg 1:02:42
What I see what I see today, let's say action more action because you know they're always placed for drama person on movies you can always make and take as you mentioned, technology is cheap all you need a computer camera, put the editing program in your computer and you can make them so all those person on movie like moonlight or what those movies will always be done. People will young people wants to tell story and express themselves, they will do it. The question comes down when you want to make a more expensive movie when you want to make action movie. It's not cheap, making actual movie is not cheap. And they're they're explosions, there are mechanical, there are cars chases, etc, etc. And what would happen from a business point of view that the movies went through transformation in the 2000, etc. They became paperback movies. It was expensive to make movies, you needed the lab, you need the camera, you needed to buy film, you need to print the film, everything was expensive. So you can make a very, very, very cheap movie. And you can make a movie you need at least to to be near a lab to develop the film, at least. And this have changed a lot. It's cheap now you don't need the lab. So the cost of production has strike. The buyer the potential buyer, television stations streaming services, whoever buys those small independent movie they got used now they can pay less money to buy the movies. You know, so now it movie they used to buy movie for $1 million. A young filmmaker that just finished a movie can you can have my movie for 80,000 I don't need 1 million. I will cover my costs if I sell it to you at and I sell it to some German television and cetera very quickly I will cover my costs. So the buyer got us to buy cheap movies. Now when it comes to make a action movie, and you need this eight weeks or nine weeks of shooting the 6 million today equivalent formula the buyers that we don't have don't make this action movie I don't care if you're not making Spider Man if you're not making superhero huge event movie, don't make this movie I will buy the small movie the cheap horror movie I will buy the the the cheap dramas. So the sources have dried the money have dried to make an action movie. And despite the fact that is it's it's cheaper, technologically cheaper, but still you need the money and and there is no money around. So producers who want young director to do action movies, they're asking them to do it for 1 million today money for weeks shooting and it's not really action movie. So this is a tough, tough, tough area. When you deal with action or sci fi stuff that needs special effects. This is one area the big the saving grace is the digital effects. Graphic digital effect we did not have it we had to or they were very very very expensive. So we had to physically produce everything every fight every Chase every card hit every head to really physically be done with to flip cars. Today, with some ingenuity and some knowledge you can flip a car on in your computer you can have a huge explosion for no money, etc. So those two forces which are really not working either working against each other or complementing each other, less money, much less money, but the technology of the CGI or the graphic. computerised graphic SpecialEffect help. So they have to navigate this area. They also the young filmmakers, again in action, they come up from a different background, we came from a background of as I say Western James Bond Tarzan's and the young filmmakers are coming from the background of video games. Sure, not home movies, they're back their visual background, the visual way they see thing is the way they saw it when they play video game to their kids.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:21
Right!

Sam Firstenberg 1:07:22
Fast pace, great special effect. Very grand stuff. So So those are the things that have changed, and but you can prove yourself by having a computer and camera people can buy a camera, they can buy a supercomputer, or they can just buy or this right Oh, the phone,

Alex Ferrari 1:07:45
The phone will do it. Then it shoots shoots 5k or 8k Now who knows? It's insane. Right? Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Sam Firstenberg 1:07:57
If you think the movie business is the analogy to life Okay, you I say I would say as it you know, Director Director is the chief guys, he's a top of the pyramid, he makes the decision. And he delegate the tasks to everybody. So he's at the top of the pyramid. So I've learned I think the most important is really, to be humble enough to humble yourself. There is nothing you do by yourself. This is the biggest bluff in the world. I mean, unless you're an animator and you sit at home for three years by yourself and you make the movie animation, you use a lot of talent, the director, the creator of any this type of movies, not It's not painting so you're not in your, in your studio by yourself painting, you need a lot of help and a lot of talent and and only with the help only with the with the harnessing all those different talents into your talent as the director is the storyteller, something the magic will happen. So, in my case, my success, you know, the movies that have been successful American Ninja Electric Boogaloo. They happen because many people contributed to the performers that are there. The cinematographer that and all of this together was channeled through my, my talent or my abilities or whatever you want to call it, to create what you've created. And I think it's also true in life. You don't go alone by yourself, are not alone. I can tell it now I'm 70 years old and look back you don't go alone by yourself if you don't have a support by friends and family, etc. Very true. Probably.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:49
Now and what are three of your favorite films of all time?

Sam Firstenberg 1:09:53
Films of all time?

Alex Ferrari 1:09:54
Three.

Sam Firstenberg 1:09:55
I'll tell you I am All it's hard to say there are so many features

Alex Ferrari 1:10:03
Three that comes to mind.

Sam Firstenberg 1:10:05
But the I love Akira Kurosawa's movies when I was introduced to this Japanese genre of action, Eugene Bo, 7 samurai I was struggling Oh, wow. Amazing. But, you know, I was influenced a lot when I was young by Hitchcock movies, you know, watching John Ford and etc. I'm not a great fan of horror pictures. So those are the type of movies let's say the most impressive are the movies of David Lee. I mean, Dr. Zhivago Lawrence of Arabia, big vast movie big big movies and and those are really the movies that I really like there is a big best Nestle, some action, great drama unfold within the movie, the story of the movie and etc.

Alex Ferrari 1:11:10
There's very few directors in today's world that gets to play on that kind of Canvas. You know, the James Cameron's that Steven Spielberg's the, you know, the Chris Nolan's of the world, they get to play in these giant giant canvases, because it's so darn expensive to play on those on those canvases. But, but it's remarkable but Sam, listen, I want to thank you for coming on the show. It has been an absolute honor and and pleasure talking to you and going back down the nostalgia lane talking about cannon and your amazing work you did back in the 80s and 90s. I appreciate you my friend and thank you for helping make my my childhood a little bit more interesting and entertaining. So I do I appreciate you my friend.

Sam Firstenberg 1:11:54
Yeah. First of all, you're very welcome. And I was happy to be in touch with you and I hope that the listeners will enjoy what we talked.

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Best FREE Screenwriting Software in 2023…PERIOD!

A welder cannot build a bridge without his torch. A rockstar can’t have a solo without his guitar. A screenwriter cannot write a script without screenwriting software.

Today we’ll look at five of the best screenwriting software programs out there in the market in 2023, and the best part, all of these choices are FREE.

Maybe you’re a first-time writer looking to try and bring the film you see in your head onto the page, or maybe you’re a seasoned writing veteran looking for new software to try out. Well, let’s look at some of your best choices.


Arc Studio Pro

Arc Studio is one of the best new screenwriting software options. It offers an easy-to-learn, intuitive interface with professional features and a free browser version (yes, totally free). It’s great screenwriting software for professionals or beginners. One of the great things about Arc Studio is you can collaborate with other writers in real-time, similar to Google Docs. You can also export your screenplay as a PDF or .fdx file for easy sharing and collaboration with other writers who use different software.

The cloud-based software allows you to access and write your screenplay from the downloadable software (Mac and PC), in your browser, or from the iOS app on your iPhone or iPad. And it has automatic cloud storage with the ability to save to Google Drive or your hard drive and access your screenplay from practically any device with an internet connection.

Arc Studio also offers a great outlining tool for breaking your story and crafting your characters’ arcs. If you need production tools like colored pages and starred revisions, you won’t get that with this tool, though the Arc Studio team says those features are coming soon.

Cost: Free, with an option to upgrade to the $99/year Pro version. You can download the software here


Celtx

Celtx is screenwriting/pre-production software designed to create and organize media projects in various formats: film screenplays, television screenplays, stage plays, games, podcasts, and documentaries.

It is one of the most well-known screenwriting software in the film industry.

With many collaborative features built into its code, it’s perfect if you want to collaborate on a script in real-time.

Some features require you to pay a monthly fee to use, but if you’re just looking for software that’ll allow you to simply write and have things in the proper industry standards when it comes to formatting, you can’t do wrong with Celtx.

Celtx is also available on all devices, making writing at home or on the go possible.

You can download the software here


WriterDuet

WriterDuet is screenwriting software for writing and editing screenplays and other forms of mass media.

Initially released in 2013, this software has been getting more recognition as time has passed and is a favorite among up-and-coming filmmakers.

Firebase powers the software. This allows users to write together in real-time from multiple devices.

WriterDuet is an online-based program, but recently the software has been given some off-line features that are free to use.

While it’s not false advertising to say that WriterDuet is free, there are some stipulations to the free title.

Unlike some other programs, WriterDuet allows its users to write their first THREE screenplays for free. After that, you either have to pay a per-month price or an annual fee.

With that said, if you are a first-time writer, it’ll take you some time to finish your first –second fully – and even third screenplay. By that time, you may decide to invest some money into a full version of this software or go with a competitor.

Scripts written with WriterDuet allow the user to save their script in the FDX file format, which 95% of Hollywood studios, producers, and production companies use, so if you get a script request from someone in the industry, you’ll be able to send the script in the proper format easily.

You can download the software here


Fade In

Fade In Professional Screenwriting Software, or Fade In, is screenwriting software for crafting film and television screenplays, stage plays, radio plays, graphic novels, and more.

The look of the software is very watered down, allowing the user to simply focus on writing their script.

While the software is free, you can only work on one script at a time unless you want to pay a fee to work on more.

If you’re just getting your feet wet in screenwriting, the simple free version will do its job just fine.

You can also save your script in FDX format, which means you can send your script to someone that uses Final Draft and its compatibility.

With the software available for both Mac and Windows users, you don’t have to worry if it works on your device.

You can download the software here


Trelby

Trelby is a free, open-source screenwriting program that provides a simple, uncluttered interface for writing scripts.

This is the only open-source screenwriting program we have on this list. This means any user can edit the program’s code to add new features or take away ones. This is how innovations are made.

If you’re looking for software that not only allows you to write your script but also does other things like budgeting, creating cast lists, and other related pre-production tasks, this isn’t the software for you as this software has none of those features.

Treble is designed to be clean and straightforward. If you simply want to sit down and write, then Trelby is perfect for you.

Kudos to Trelby for being 100% free. There are no extra features that you have to pay for.

You can download the software here


Kit Scenarist

This is free screenwriting software you may have never heard of before because it’s still in beta but available to download now.

It allows you to export for Final Draft, Word DocX, and PDF files.

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BPS 266: The Art of Making Horror Comedies with Damon Thomas

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Alex Ferrari 0:10
I'd like to welcome to the show, Damon Thomas. How you doing Damon?

Damon Thomas 0:26
Great, great bit tired. We had the screening last night the premiere, it was like 300 people at the Art fest. So it was a big night. Live Reactions like talking about it was a great night. I'm really pleased to be here.

Alex Ferrari 0:40
Great, my friend. Congratulations on your new film my best friend's actress exorcism, which is as insane as it sounds. Right. It's one of those titles like Sharknado like you know what you're gonna get?

Damon Thomas 0:56
I 100% agree with it. Like, as soon as I got sent that in my inbox, like in 2019. And it was like my best friend's exorcism. I thought this brilliant or, you know, you just can't wait to read it. And every moment since I got signed up to do it, where people say to me, Hey, what you're up to and I go, I'm doing my best friend's exorcism. People always smile. It's just, I mean, they go wow, really? And they go Yeah. I said, Well, you know, what is about

Alex Ferrari 1:26
It's about my best friend's exorcism. I mean, it's, it's, it's perfect. I mean, it's like jaw is like, you know what you're gonna get?

Damon Thomas 1:34
Wait. And yeah, so then you say is certainly at is great.

Alex Ferrari 1:42
You had me at hello. Hello. That's the brilliant part about it, too, as I was watching him just going. I love the 80s. I mean, everyone's doing 80s stuff now and Stranger Things is brought it back and made it cool. But for my generation, and I'm assuming yours as well, the 80s You know, is awesome.

Damon Thomas 2:03
So my first question is simpler times, right?

Alex Ferrari 2:06
Oh my gosh, can you America, simpler times when there was no Internet, there was no social media. I mean, there was you barely had remote controls on the television.

Damon Thomas 2:14
Right? I mean, I mean, when you think about you had to if you are going to meet someone you phoned, and if you had a dial up phone, you would

Alex Ferrari 2:24
Tatatatatata

Damon Thomas 2:24
He would slip on like the seven digit you go put the phone down, go start that whole thing again. And then you call your friend and say like, I meet you there, put the phone down, you go to that place. And if they weren't there, you were like, where are they? And then you'd have to find a phone box, call their house and go, do you know where they are? And they go where they left? 20 minutes?

Alex Ferrari 2:45
No, no, it's like yours last.

Damon Thomas 2:51
Oh, so you know, slight sort of off topic. But the feeling of boredom was something to behold back in the 80s. You know, what, if you have nothing to do, there wasn't that instant, kind of like dopamine hit off something new from you're like, oh, let's go down a rabbit hole down the internet now. And you would just use a stare and feel so bored. It was untrue. It was like a sort of sport. It was like, profound, bored.

Alex Ferrari 3:19
On you had three channels. And if nothing was on that you liked. You were pretty much done. Until you had a friend who had cable. Yeah, then you would go over and maybe get three more channels. And then you'd be if there's nothing there. You have to go outside and actually interact with other human beings. Scary territory.

Damon Thomas 3:35
Exactly. Or you had to like think of something to do didn't you had to go read a book? I get ya read. I mean, God read a book. I mean, wow. Anyway, yeah,

Alex Ferrari 3:47
it's just a bunch of now we just sound like two old farts talk

Damon Thomas 3:52
Said it

Alex Ferrari 3:54
Just two old farts talking about the old. Exactly, exactly. So my first question, sir, is how and why did you want to get into this insanity? That is the film business?

Damon Thomas 4:07
Oh, yeah. For me, it started when I watched Blade Runner in the cinema. Now, I just went, I need to be in that somewhere I need to be in that. I mean, even back then there was so little information about what that was working in the film industry. There was like we used to have this program that was just called film or whatever the year it was that Barry Norman used to present it was going to film 1985 or database two. And then you would just watch that and that was the only information and occasion you'd have an answer documentary. And that was nothing else. And then you might look up films in in encyclopedias, and now,

Alex Ferrari 4:46
We're dating ourselves so badly.

Damon Thomas 4:52
But the funny thing is my daughter that who's like 15 or takes me it was really interesting in that movie, they were like broke the fourth wall and you No, she's got her whole sorts of like terms of reference about filmmaking and everything is so amazing that you kind of got I just feeling we were just in the darkness in the wilderness. And so, so that I kind of got into documentaries. And then I kind of came, you know, I took me a long while to sort of find my roots into drama and started directing drama. But then, of course, I just always wanted to make the movie,

Alex Ferrari 5:29
Isn't it? Isn't it interesting, though, that I have kids as well, and they are, but you know, much more educated then. Because it's just so much more information about everything. Yeah. I mean, the you would get the occasional Star Wars making up or the Indiana Jones making and that was pretty much it. I mean, you didn't see anything else until in the later 80s. When, you know, then it started to become a little bit better than nine DVD commentaries and laser discs. Now really old commentaries on the laser, the criteria, laser distance, stuff like that,

Damon Thomas 5:58
Didn't you want it to hear like how he did stuff you? It was like, you know, behind the curtain, the The Wizard of Oz, it's like, how are they doing this stuff? How is it being made? How'd you do this? And whereas now they were, you can just go on YouTube and go, like, how do you do that, I'll just put it in, you know, and I'll find someone telling me how it's done. Or if someone would have made a film about it, it's, that is sort of great, because it opens it up to everybody in a way.

Alex Ferrari 6:24
But then then the bad thing is it opens it up to everybody. So now before you didn't have as much competition, like I always tell people like in the 80s, if you finished a film on 35, it was sold. Like you just good, bad. I mean, Toxic Avenger got theatrical release, like, it doesn't really matter. But now everybody's making a movie. And now it's about getting seen and all of that kind of stuff. But you were saying about your daughter knowing had the reference from references about that. The generation that's, that's now it is so educated in story. It is so difficult for the for us as filmmakers and storytellers. Because make something that's interesting that doesn't hasn't been done before. And every year that goes by, it's getting harder, and harder and harder to because, you know, things that worked in the 70s and 80s. Just don't they can't work and like I was showing, I think it was some kids were watching Rocky the other day, Rocky, Rocky, and they're like, because every because they've just seen every buddy rip off rocky. Yeah, for the last 4050 years. So it doesn't have the same umph to it as it used to. So it's how do you as a storyteller, kind of kind of deal with that? Because it is something very, very difficult things that Hitchcock never had to deal with weed.

Damon Thomas 7:47
I mean, I suppose every genre has tropes. So and the you know, the horror genre is a very broad church from slasher movies, to psychological horror, to sci fi horror, you know, to alien aliens knows amazing movies to kind of comedy horror. And so you either the, The Exorcist is sort of like the benchmark of like the hand. So Handbook of cartoons, you know, do you? Are you going to do the vault net? Are you going to do the, you know, are you going to do and, and how are you going to do it? And it's sort of interesting, because you're always going to disappoint someone, you're always going to someone's gonna go up. I wasn't scary. But the thing about it is I did it, what want the film to have this sort of tone that felt like an 80s movie. And then it kind of went into a completely new realm of like, oh, wait, you know, where did that come from? I wanted to stay within the same thing. So the exorcism for me was a great, I thought, can we pull off this thing where it's kind of scary and quite disturbing, but then it's funny. It's like, relieved by this real character of Christian lemma. And the thing is, because once you he's sort of desperate, but and, you know, when I when I first met Chris, we were talking about it rehearsing. I said, he's sort of a loser, but he's kind of a bit cocky. But he cocky or cocky loser? Yeah. And he does want this. He does want it really bad. So that when the demon shows himself and he just goes like, yes. Even a high five, she's totally chocolate sized. And for me, and it was great watching it last night, because people really enjoyed that moment, and really enjoyed Christian lemon. And I think actually, it's it showed me that there's kind of quite a nice group dynamic when you think you could really watch this movie with a group of friends. Oh, yeah. It's not like I don't think it's a sort of, well, you know, people will watch obviously watch your mobile device devices all the time, but it actually made me really think about that group experience of watching movies. You know, I went to the cinema As I see Thor and my son, you know, a week ago and now it's it is great being in the cinema, isn't it? There's something that is said. That's why I thought last night I thought it actually really helps when everyone's going through because like when, when the when there is she burns him address them. They all cheered last night. It was fantastic. Thank you not expecting it.

Alex Ferrari 10:27
But it's primal, theatrical experiences. It's a primal experience. And we're all around the fire. Yeah, it's a primal thing and group experiences of a story, where, you know, the core of all stories is basically to teach us not to be eaten by the tiger down the street. Yeah, you know, around around the corner. That was the point of stories around the campfire as they were, and then they evolved into morals and lessons and things. And now it's entertainment. Because we get a lot of the meat and potatoes from other other kinds of media. But it is, yeah, you're absolutely right, without question now.

Damon Thomas 10:58
But just also just to pick up on that point is, I think that even if you have never made a movie TV, and you know, but you've people sort of absorbed so much about, you sort of watch something you go, they're gonna get together, he's gonna die. He won't, you know, you just feel it right? If you feel that, you know it, because you know how these things work, you sort of said that when you get like, you know, say a series of severance or station 11, you're on TV, you let you go, I've got no idea where this is going. And they feel quite refreshing. And I wanted to do some things where you sort of felt I thought, it'd be funny if this felt like a movie that somebody thought they hadn't seen from the 80s. So have a bit of an 80s vibe. And but also, if you had an exorcist, it was just so unlike any excess, you've seen before, and, and to really get to make him so we I really set him up so that when he comes to the exorcism, you really enjoyed him. So that was the high fives that he's always doing. Up top, you know that stuff. But you know, he's cheesy, but you know, there were weightlifting, Christian evangelist, if you put it on YouTube, you can see these guys pumping iron for Jesus, and they exist that they were real, they were real people. So it's not far fetched. And he is a real person, he is like, totally believes that, you know, his purity. I mean, I even realized that he can't remember Gretchen's name. Yeah, it comes out in the middle of it. It goes, You know what, such a, it's so true. Because it's all about him.

Alex Ferrari 12:42
Obviously, obviously, you know, it's, it's brilliant. And you're right, it's so because we've just seen it so much. And we've seen it and we've seen it done well. And we've seen it some bad, you know, so like, if you're gonna see a shark, if you're gonna see a shark movie, and you've seen Jaws, it's gonna be tough for you to figure out a new way to do a sharp move, because it was done pretty much unanimously. The first exam the DHS is, it's the same thing. It's flawless.

Damon Thomas 13:10
I know some people then get disappointed if you don't do the things that have been done before. Because you're like, Well, what happened to that? Where's that? You know, and they go, but you're like, you were saying, how do you do different you're trying to find ways to either, like, reinvent the wheel, if it's already been filmed and done, like 1000 times. So you are, you're in kind of familiar territory, but you know, I did want to Yeah, as best as I best cuts just get that tone. Right. And, you know, if people you know, you can only do what you can do, you know, there's always

Alex Ferrari 13:44
Yeah, yeah, it Listen, it's we're in, we're in the world of everyone has an opinion. And everyone can express that opinion on Rotten Tomatoes, or on you know, mats and things like that, and social media. But at the end of the day, as a filmmaker, you just got to do what you got to do. One thing I love about about the movie is that you are able to balance humor and horror, which is not easy. It is not easy to do that as a filmmaker, as a storyteller, because I've seen really bad because if the balance is off, I've seen bad horror comedies, where if the balance is off, you know, like Evil Dead to an Army of Darkness. Like they'll those movies. You know what, Sam? Sam general, could do no harm. No wrong in my eyes. But yeah, but he's able to balance that and you were able to balance the horror and the comedy beautifully in this film. Oh, because it's not it's not easy. It's not easy.

Damon Thomas 14:35
Yeah, I mean, I think it comes from truce, I think. If your characters feel like the real article, even if they are heightened, I mean, we all we all know people that feel quite heightened type. So you're gonna meet people who are strong flavors, and they're real people. And Christian lemon is a strong flavor. And yeah, but as long as he's being truthful to that character in that sort of set of circumstances. And it's sort of balanced with, you know, Abby's kind of like sheer like, Oh my God. You know, it was one of the things I put in because he just sort of say actually is an exorcism. And it originally she, she went, Well, how do I do that? I just sort of I kind of said she would really go, well, it's not a normal thing. You know, generally, it's been fun but because it's an exorcism movie doesn't mean that everyone knows that, you know, an exorcism is something that is actually real. So so he talks about really patulous way, but he gets the job as an excellence as demon inside it, these these really patronizing to her. And I thought that's exactly what he would say, like, are you stupid?

Alex Ferrari 15:52
Come on, of course, it's just the team. Yeah.

Damon Thomas 15:55
So to your point is that if you have, it's like in killing Eve, I did a scene where Eve kills a guy with an axe, like being spurred on by Villanelle. But that's that scene is quite funny. Because the axe gets stuck in his back and says she can't pull it out. And so she's being shouted that, like, hits him again. She's saying I can't have access. And the guys go, Ah, it sounds kind of really disturbing. But it's funny because I think those things can sit right next to each other like, because the Coen brothers do it all the time. They kind of, you know, they put like, weight. And I think that it's it's a bit like when you go to a funeral that they're you feel like sometimes doing the other thing that you're not meant to like laughing, because it's the relief intention that you need, because of the emotional expectation. You're

Alex Ferrari 16:50
I'm sorry, I don't mean to trump your budget. Do you when you sell a funeral? Do you? I don't know if you saw this online somewhere, but some guy died. Okay, he died. And at his funeral, he put a speaker he had his family put a speaker inside of the inside of the casket. And as their as their this is part of his wishes, as it's being laid down. Like, hey, hey, no, no, no, no, no, I'm alive. I'm alive. And he's hitting and knocking and, and it's and people are pissing themselves. I mean, everyone's crying. But then everyone starts laughing because they know it's, what'd he do? I'm like, Oh, my God, that is so brilliant.

Damon Thomas 17:29
He's brilliant. He's fantastic. Isn't it as well for planning?

Alex Ferrari 17:34
That's, yeah, he I think he was sick and he was gonna die. I'm gonna do this. I'm going to do this, right. And my favorite tombstone ever is like I told you, I was ill.

Damon Thomas 17:44
That's brilliant. Very, very good.

Alex Ferrari 17:47
Now. So when you started your career, Damon, I'm assuming that the second you said, I'm going to be a director, that the trucks of money came in, all the doors came wide open and said, whatever you want to do, all you have is time and money.

Damon Thomas 18:01
Oh, my God, if only Yeah, I know. I've had it's a long journey. I did a degree at physics and I, of course,

Alex Ferrari 18:10
Prerequisite to be a filmmaker. Yeah,

Damon Thomas 18:13
I mean, I just got a job in, you know, I got a job in BBC News. And then I gave her up to go and work on an arts program and then gradually just did more and more documentaries that did drama documentaries with about Beethoven and other things. And then I got, yeah, just got a break. You know, someone actually approached me to do a drama documentary. And I said, why don't we just do a drama, and it was set in the Antarctic, and we had like 120,000 pounds. To make it said that I were filmed inside and out as an ice fridge. It was all set on one of Scott's Antarctic missions. So that said that their breath was all sort of

Alex Ferrari 18:54
Because there's no budget for VFX no budget for VFX.

Damon Thomas 18:57
Yeah. And we went we snowed up a studio. That was tiny. And yeah, it was. Yeah. So it started back then in 2006. So yeah, it's been a long road. You know, there's been a lot of us a lot of Miles.

Alex Ferrari 19:11
Miles on the tires, as they say. Yeah. So the question is, though, because a lot of filmmakers listening are going through these stages. And again, even in Oh, six. It was a different world than we are today. Like, you know, it's so much more difficult to get in now than it was in the early 2000s. How did you keep going? Is there any advice you can give to filmmakers? Right?

Damon Thomas 19:35
I mean, obviously, back then, it was a bit like if you wanted to make a record, you know, you you'd like you could you just couldn't afford to go into a recording studio, so they seemed very out touch beyond reach. I think the good thing about today is you can make a movie on your iPhone. And I think the thing what you learn by just doing it is sort of you know, How'd you make something that just kind of engages people? You know, and I think that that's the thing, if just start making stuff, even if it's you, you know, you and a friend do something about your life, suddenly, there's kind of like, you could be filming your own house when your garden or down the park or things that you kept. So they don't need huge production. So it sets something contemporary, and just start sort of just putting something together. Because the thing is, that's what people judge you about. They kind of look at you and see how do you well voice every last story? Can you do something funny? Can you make something? And, you know, it's amazing how you can engage people with something very small. It's like, Don't overreach. That's always the thing about filmmaking is, you know, don't just spend all your money on one shot and the rest of the film feels like it's no money.

Alex Ferrari 20:50
But Kubrick and Scorsese did it. Why can't I?

Damon Thomas 20:54
But, you know, I was reading gonna take because I love the shining.

Alex Ferrari 20:58
My favorite, one of my favorites,

Damon Thomas 21:00
Right! It's such an amazing film. And, you know, Jack Nicklaus axed 60 doors to get his Johnny. That's three. mean,

Alex Ferrari 21:14
I mean, you imagine, can you imagine taking one of the biggest movie stars in the world today? And you're not Stanley Kubrick and going, Yeah, or David Fincher at this point. And yeah, and just 66

Damon Thomas 21:29
Number 14. I like exhausted, like, axing costs,

Alex Ferrari 21:33
I think. I think I'm sorry, but I think Fincher on social network. When when I think Andrew Garfield had to smash the the, the laptop. Yeah. And they did like 40 of them had he had literally 40 laptops sitting down, because he knew it was good it because that's David Fincher.

Damon Thomas 21:54
Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's weird. We don't all have that. I mean, you know, his tutor, you could say he's right, because he turns out brilliant film, right? It his process network is, you know, that shining is a masterpiece. And they change, they change filmmaking daily, they change sorts of that, you know, when I, when I was doing killing Eve that I was quite influenced by, you know, Jack Torrance when he's sitting there, and the whole dance is going on behind it this whole I know, it's so like, at the edge of the world sort of madness. And so when I do killing him, I suggested that we do this, this kind of like afternoon tea dance. So you go into this environment and villain I was waiting there. And this is old fashioned music playing all these people just dancing. And it's like the edge of time. And I just, you get really influenced by, you know, but sorry, I was sort of digressing. I mean, in terms of filmmaking, you just have to do if the more you do, the more you sort of learn, because you sort of realize no sound is quite important, a good sound, you know, and it gets forgotten, you know, sound cooked, you know, to get great sound that you can actually use it because a lot of times we have to do re recording a lot of dialogue was it's like planes and all sorts of fridges on in the background. And, you know, someone just decides to sort of, you go to the quietest place in the world. And on that day, there's a guy getting his tree cut out. And there's like, you go over, you get like, people come over, go, can you not cut your trees? And he goes, No, I've paid for it. You know, you're like, oh, my gosh. But you know, it's all those. And you learn how I mean, you know, working as I started as a trainee news additive, you start realizing, Oh, you can cut that picture that picture, they sort of come together. Oh, yeah. How do you cut those? Oh, we actually need a cutaway on that, again, a detail shot because it's how it helps me tell that story. And you realize that sort of objects. If you see objects in someone's room, you can actually tell exactly who they are very quickly. And so art direction and all the bits you need, it's like a messy desk. It's interesting how some people do a messy desk, but it's sort of looks like a sort of presentation. It looks messy desks actually have smears on them and bits of crumbs. And it's all that kind of thing that you start to you become, you know, over the you just become super observant about things in a kind of really all the time, things that you sort of that make all the difference. Now, you may be watching it as a kind of year ago, like it doesn't feel right doesn't feel like a real thing. But you can't put your finger on why it doesn't feel real. It's a bit like doorframes. In a real house, they tend to have quite a lot of scuffs lower down. Because all the things have gone through them over time. If they look pristine, it looks like a new build. You know, it's sort of it's all those details that you start to get quite attuned to as a director when you start doing stuff. But you know, story is key, you know, what's the story? And is it engaging? It's sort of like you can dress things up with you can spend millions on effects, but they don't engage you about the human condition, then you ended up going, I don't care. You know, if you're going to see a film that was 100 million dollars, you saw that. Because we've seen everything go away.

Alex Ferrari 25:18
I mean, if Jurassic Park was just a bunch of dinosaurs walking around and be like, it'd be a documentary, you needed a story you needed to connect to those characters, you needed the magic that Spielberg brings in. Do you know On a sidenote, since you such as a Kubrick fan, do you know I'm sure you do though this but he, I think it was four Eyes Wide Shut, right. Had his assistant runner up for a year run around? Oh, no, not theaters? No, no, the the side tables of couples in a bed, and he just go into people's houses. It is take hundreds, hundreds of pictures of just how people kept the side tables at night. And he just used them as reference to build out his side tables for

Damon Thomas 26:05
And us who are things that

Alex Ferrari 26:09
You just get a bit but you're talking about someone who spent seven years prepping that movie. And it was great that he did but it was horrible that he did because we didn't get more Stanley Kubrick films, I wouldn't die. I would love to see what Stanley would do with today's technology. Can you imagine? Imagine?

Damon Thomas 26:25
I mean, you know, 2000 a while it's just it's so clever. And so, so interesting, you know, there was sort of being made in the late 60s. And it's kind of amazing, you sort of they are different times. And he was a particular, you know, very particular director. You know, I'm I'm also a big fan of like, really, Scott, you know, I think people people are still trying to make alien and Blade Runner. Yeah, they're still trying to make the air those are the benchmarks in the way that, you know, it's, you know, that sort of dirty future, like rain soaks, sort of the clash of kind of, like different cultures around the world, you know, that whole feeling? I, you know, it's it. Of course, they were, they were slightly you can feel it from the effects point of view, but they there's so the characters are so great. And they're stylization, mixed together, that kind of, you know, realization of is, you know, they had such an impact on me. And, yeah, it's why these, you know, you can still go back to this, but that's what I think about how many films you actually revisit, and we watch Apocalypse Now, you know, blew my mind when I watched it, I can still rewatch that film every single time because it's, you still see something new in it, and you just think it's so incredible. And, you know, and the conversation, you know, another amazing, amazing film, but also great, you know, surveillance, you know, I like I really liked that movie, the lives of others, which is another surveillance movie, you know, another brilliant film, because they're all about the human condition, but they just tell great stories really well told. And I think that that's what you're always trying to do. Whether we succeed.

Alex Ferrari 28:22
It's not easy. This is not easy, telling a good movie telling a good story. I mean, if you're a good storyteller, and even the best storytellers that we have in the film industry, they don't get it every time. There's very few that have impeccable photography, it's something else times,

Damon Thomas 28:39
Essentially. And the thing is, you know, nobody sets out to make a big pile of crap. You know, you've never noticed that says, you know, this year.

Alex Ferrari 28:48
I'm gonna, I'm gonna call me cat, I'm gonna make cat let's go make cat

Damon Thomas 28:52
40 million and then move on with me. Good. I read. It's just like, everyone he knows. It's it kind of, you know, it's a lot of people's lives, you know, spent dedicated to doing something. And that's why, of course, you know, I think it just takes a huge I think the thing about it is just not it's that thing. Again, I'm not overreaching? Does it feel right? It's just sitting right? You know, you have to constantly be your own worst critic guy, or is this crap? What is this, you know, you have to, and also you have to be able to work with people that you trust their opinion, so that when they go, that's why, you know, Robert Evans was such a great producer, because he was able to tell us some trouble if you become, you know, a celebrated director. You know, can you take criticism, because someone's hate give you a no go is any good, you know, and you go, right, actually, I think that's, and that's what I think sometimes does happen. I mean, look, you know, if if someone you know, you can make one shining in your life, you'd be happy with it.

Alex Ferrari 30:00
Oh my god. I wouldn't take any almost any movie out of out of Stanley's filmography and go. I'll take that one. You know, I'll take it all.

Damon Thomas 30:14
I mean, if and that's why these guys are amazing. And you just keep kind of going back on thing. Yeah, there's, there's no and that's why I kind of judge the film when I rewatch it. Right. It's it's like really disturbing. I don't want to rewatch it was definitely disturbing. But you know, it's funny how you can, if Jaws is on the show, watch a bit of Jaws, you know, when you just see it on a streaming platform you go, I'm gonna watch that tonight. We'll get back to it. Right you and kind of we, you know, because also these actors that are in there, you know, Dreyfus is so, so good, aren't they? There's such, the way that they inhabit those characters is,

Alex Ferrari 30:52
Is, is remarkable. Now, let me ask you, you know, as directors we there's always that day on set that we feel the entire world is coming down crashing around us. Generally, it's every day, that's everyday generally. But there's always the one

Damon Thomas 31:05
Offs in device device slowly.

Alex Ferrari 31:09
So so there's that one day, that's really bad. And you know, camera doesn't work last the location that guys cut into tree next door? What Yeah, what was that day for you on my best friend's exorcism? And how did you overcome it?

Damon Thomas 31:23
Ah, gosh, let me I'm trying to think of those days. Mistake 10. If we had like, a true chakra of a day on that, that's good. Yeah. Because the thing about it is doing it so long that you literally, it's like this sort of thing. When it comes, you just, you just let it, you sort of have to absorb it. And like I say filmmaking is like the same, but always different. Because of the actors and the team that you have. There's always that combination. And there's always something that will just go wrong. And you just have to, I think doing documentaries for years that allowed me to sort of pivot in a way of just going because I used to always turn up places like I've never been before. And they meet people film them, and they're going to film some shots. And you were just making up on literally, if you didn't get to Reki, because you couldn't sort of fly to America and meet the guy and go home again and go back and do you would just go and film them. And so you sort of so it's kind of like taught me that don't get too rigid. Apart from like, action sequences when you have to really plan on storyboards, and then pickoff shots, which takes a very, very long time. It's why like bond has like the main unit, and then it has the the action unit. They're running for like six months next to each other because of this so many shots. But I think that sort of doing documentary for so long. I just kind of if things sort of go wrong, I can just go well, let's try and do something else. It doesn't. For me, I kind of go, you know, and things just happen all the time, you know. And the classic one is you've got a driving sequence and you just go to the right just drive the car of them they go, I don't drive.

Alex Ferrari 33:22
I had fun on your headshot. But on your headshot, you say you ride horses, you play the guitar and you drive. That's when your special skills.

Damon Thomas 33:30
I always remember one guy said no, I spent the money on of dance lessons. I was you know, I literally just drive the car over here. It was like a really small oversight. And so we had to put him in the seat behind in the backseat and fill in such a way and just mine the steering wheel, but someone just drove in front of him but we got away with just that. It's just you just choose the camera angle. And just see just like that you just kind of go like, course no one's asked him if he arrives.

Alex Ferrari 34:04
But it's basically directing his compromise in so many ways. It's constantly compromising and pivoting and shifting. Because I don't know about you, I love to walk on set with and scare the hell out of my ad with like 150 shots on my shot list every day. And they're like, You are Yeah, we have eight hours. And I'm like I they're there in case things go well, I know I'm gonna shoot 20 of them. But

Damon Thomas 34:31
Exactly. And I think that is a sort of career of patience of just, I mean when you think about it as you're now it's that most of the day is spent lighting. Lighting is you know, lighting is key and makes everything look great. And you just so you know your block, size of your shots. You sit and then you start lighting. I mean They just spent a lot of time, right? And so it's like riding that wave of, oh, you know, waiting for last. But that's not the denigrating the director of photography, it's just like that is the life isn't it? So life off just kind of finding that in

Alex Ferrari 35:15
That it is then that inner Zen of place, you're like, Okay, we're ready, okay, three to how many two hours to 90 minutes, but it's gonna be two hours.

Damon Thomas 35:24
I mean, I'm the other interesting thing, I think, is that people who don't work in the industry often say, you know, when you work with actors, they go the other direction, they just do what you say, you can go. It doesn't quite work that way. Doesn't you know, that's not how it works. And they just don't understand that it's a very inexact. Science is really unique and special. And it's such a exposing amazing thing, that it's not just about you that you do that over there. It's not that it's a kind of proper creative relationship that you sort of embark on.

Alex Ferrari 36:01
Isn't it interesting that when when normies I call them normies people outside of the Carnival business that is our world, come on set. And they've only seen like, behind the scenes. Everything's edited. So like on set seems like it's, you're going fast. And they're sitting there like three hours later, they're sitting in the chair with with the headphones on for sound, and they're like, this is boring is crap. And like, is it like, on a mark on a Marvel movie? They'll spend, what, eight hours lighting for one shot? Yeah, because that's they have all the money.

Damon Thomas 36:37
In Bad Boy, just shoot two shots in a day. And just spend the whole morning just rehearsing, rehearsing a big shot that has a lot of moving parts. And that's what you do, you have to, if you're gonna shoot a shot, you got to shoot it well, or don't shoot it. This is the crazy thing sometimes about shooting is, don't shoot. That's another thing. That's another thing. I'd always say don't shoot. I'll say crap. But you know, don't shoot rubbish and shoots stuff. Because you're always going to look at later Oh, why didn't I just I knew, you know, I knew I

Alex Ferrari 37:14
I know.

Damon Thomas 37:17
And the thing about it is that's what you have to do as a director you have to go. It's not right, we need to, you know, it doesn't feel right. That's sometimes you set for a shot, and you have to have the competence. And it might have taken quite a long time to put the camera out there and the rigging or the guys the grips. And then you start looking at it. It's not right, we just actually need to be over here. And you have to have the confidence go strip it all out and have people around you that kind of out. Yes, you're making it. Yeah, we see it. And also don't get sort of that it also meant that you're doing something wrong sometimes like this, actually, you know.

Alex Ferrari 37:53
But that takes time to build up. Because when you're when you're first onset, you just don't want to look like you don't know what you're doing, of course, but as you get older and you've got more more shrapnel in you, you just go, guys, I made a mistake. Let's let's go over here. This is just not working. Let's say yeah, it's gonna take two hours. I'm sorry. Let's go.

Damon Thomas 38:12
Yeah. And you you're, you'll never regret it. Because you're, as you know, or just the footage that you get will be like you think thank God, thank God because you might as well choose something great. That took twice as long. I mean, it depends about obviously jeopardizing a location whenever you have to. That's why it's a sort of system of moving parts. You're always going, oh my god, can we, you know, we're only in here for one day, like the interior of the weird house, you know, there where it happens was actually there like the upstairs corridor. And this other building is sort of outside You'd never believe that we were that was the inside of the house. But we got real freedom to like smash it up inside. But we have such limited time in that.

Alex Ferrari 38:57
But is it but isn't it true, though, that you have to sit once in the edit room and go Why didn't I move the camera? Why did I accept that shot when I knew somebody was telling me? No, you've got to but you didn't have the balls or the confidence to change? Or? Yeah, you're in the edit and you're edit and you're in the edit room and you're like God I need either a guy God I gotta get saved somehow with this. Yeah, these are lessons you learn along the way and then eventually you just like I know I'll get the shots that I need. I gotta shoot that they ashtray why cuz I need a frickin cutaway?

Damon Thomas 39:35
Yeah. And it's just, yeah, yeah. That you have to rely on people around. You just have to rely a lot. But yeah, you. You sort of over the years, you're ill so you sort of see the problems coming. I think that's what happens. That's what I sort of say you sort of go, I know that we do this. That's not going to work probably because you've so been there like 10 times for sure. Thank you Get those of that and that kind of that. And that's why experience hadn't counts for a lot of question. I especially when you when you move and do different genres, occasionally you sort of come over here, you sort of think, well, I've done a shot like that I did a shot with someone underwater, I did that crash, I did someone leading over, you know, they just did it by putting your green spirit. And it's also knowing sometimes people can't, like, I just, I just did a thing about the Black Panthers in the early 70s. And we just needed someone that was on our Holland, I just saw sort of shape and a park with a pathway. I thought I'd be great. As soon as you put the car here, just put a green screen around, and everyone's sort of going, like, are you mad, you know, but we did it. Because I just knew it would work the shape. And I guess it felt like sort of lookout point that you could put a car on the head, you know, you just use like we did sort of, we had had to recreate the Mexican border. And we literally did it in like an Ikea car park. So you go on the tape record, you go. And it's just as concrete. And it was literally going I don't get it, I just don't see it. And you have to say, well, we put the all the crosses here, put the fence there, all the trucks here, we've put a lot of blocking load of big trucks on that size. And then it just sort of it's sort of you have to visualize it. I think that that becomes a thing as well that you start to visualize things within spaces. And I think that that is another thing you start to see. Because you start thinking, I do think and it's not all it depends what your life is directly about you. But I liked photography. So I liked it. Yeah, so you sort of like I like photographing, you know, you get quite into composition. And it's a bit like taking photos that people just, you know, when you think about it, like you always take a photo as sort of a shoulder highlight this is where you sort of get on the floor and you're like, oh, let's do that, you know, you're gonna lay on the floor, you're never gonna put the camera down there. But you have to start thinking about that when you start shooting as directors, you sort of think Well, where can the camera? Uh, how does it make me feel about what I'm looking at putting the camera in different positions, and that's another thing you start freeing ourselves up, about not just going here we are. But sometimes the symptoms sometimes the simplest things are just just as effective. That's the other thing. They just aren't just making things really flashy because in the end is the performance and the writing that are going to set it off.

Alex Ferrari 42:40
I mean you could look at some John Ford shots and you're just like well that's a masterpiece and they just have to just lock the camera off.

Damon Thomas 42:45
Yeah, and you know just lock it off look at just you know Yeah, and you know, that's a lot to do with location is that again just sort of going we've got to go all the way to this remote place will do that shot

Alex Ferrari 43:01
No no no IKEA IKEA and a green screen you got Lawrence of Arabia What are you talking about? If he would have had IKEA green screen we wouldn't even desert that's crazy.

Damon Thomas 43:17
He wouldn't be on Santa so much.

Alex Ferrari 43:19
It's so my last question to you sir is if you were able to go back in time and talk to your younger self is there one piece of advice you would give? Give him one piece of advice about your filmmaking journey like dude, you know, you really need to look out for this

Damon Thomas 43:34
I think is to do as much of it as you can sort of don't kind of just be waiting for the one moment that you feel is coming at a certain point in time just start shooting things just make a small film even when it's like you know drama set in your own house with your family you know, if you're just think of a story and also if it comes from you your own experience then it will be true Won't it so that if you if something has happened to you do you could do it and you'll be surprised at who can act sometimes as well you know you're and then by shooting sub two and keep it very small because do some of your very limited and just see if we can make narrative lasts for like two minutes or three minutes and put some music right then yeah, I think I think I obviously but then there was a source of it. We didn't have for you this technology whereas now you could just do it and I think that in a way we have too many tools. You know and

Alex Ferrari 44:38
And not enough story

Damon Thomas 44:40
Is true, though, isn't it? And so so kind of you you know what's the everything everywhere all at once that movie? Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 44:48
Great.

Damon Thomas 44:49
Ah, what amazing what an amazing kind of, but also very, very interesting about the human condition. Isn't it's all about what people beaten to each other. And what it's it's, I mean, people with Frankfurter fingers. I mean, it's

Alex Ferrari 45:08
When I had them on the show. I'm like, Dude hotdog fingers, guys seriously? And they're like, Yeah, we were we were high. So I said something. Because like, this is insane guys, this

Damon Thomas 45:22
That's what I love about that film is like, it's like we learn to express ourselves with our feet. And I think Jamie Jamie Lee Curtis is there and then this little foot just cut this out to her face. And so that's, I just thought, I think it's, it's not but it's true to them. It's very true. It's perfect as perfect. I thought that's really clever. And it's just funny, very funny and touching. And those guys go,

Alex Ferrari 45:49
Damon, I can keep talking to you for about another five, six hours about geeking out over. I mean, we could just start talking about Kubrick for an hour alone. There's can people where can people see your new film My best friend's exorcism?

Damon Thomas 46:00
It's on Amazon Prime video now. It's it's released today the 30th of September and yeah, so

Alex Ferrari 46:08
Perfect Halloween film. Perfect Halloween.

Damon Thomas 46:10
Yeah, well watch it. We're friends. Yes. Like my first ad Steve Hall. Fantastic guy. He's doing a party tonight. They're re re enacting one of the lemon brands steeds tonight with his friends. I just Yeah, fantastic. Yeah. Watch it with a group.

Alex Ferrari 46:30
My friend. Congratulations on the film and continued success with with I can't wait to see your next films coming out my friend. So I appreciate you my friend. Thank you again.

Damon Thomas 46:39
Thank you Alex. Thank you!

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Celtx Screenwriting Software Review: Is It Worth It in 2023?

Celtx Screenwriting Software

There are a ton of screenwriting software options out there in the world. With so many to choose from it can be hard to decide which is the best one to use.

While, Final Draft is considered the industry standard screenwriting software tool, used by 95% of productions in Hollywood, there are other options that do the same job, and better yet, are free.

One of those options is the free screenwriting software, Celtx. Today, we will take a look at the software and give things a breakdown to see if this is software that you should download today.

One thing that needs to be mentioned before we fully dive into this article: DO NOT WRITE YOUR SCRIPT IN A WORD DOCUMENT!

Being a screenwriter that works with a lot of first-time writers, this is something I see happen all the time. Writers who have written their script in a Word document.

If you would send your script to a producer or production company and they saw that your script was in a Word doc, there’s a 100% chance they’ll never open it.

Why?

It shows a lack of basic knowledge of how screenwriting works. A script is extremely specific in the way it’s formatted. While, yes, you can break the mold on how to tell a story, all formatting is pretty much standard.

Your script must have:

  • Proper scene headings
  • Action lines.
  • Character Names
  • Dialog
  • Transitions (sometimes)

If you don’t know how to format correctly, something you can easily learn, then you probably didn’t take the time to learn how to write a compelling story. A producer doesn’t have enough time as it is, so don’t waste more of their time by not doing your homework first.

The good news? When you use screenwriting software, the software is designed to format things automatically for you, so you can spend less time on the way a script looks and spend more time on just telling an engaging story.

[adsanity_group align=’alignnone’ num_ads=1 num_columns=1 group_ids=’738′]

Price

As stated before, a great reason to download Celtx is that the software is free.

You don’t have to spend any money to get your ideas on paper. With Celtx you can download the software and immediately get to work.

With that said, if you’re looking for some in-depth features, Celtx has them too, but you’ll have to pay for those extras.

If you want to do more than just simply write a screenplay, like write a budget, put together shot lists, scheduling, and more, then you’ll have to pay, per month, for those features.

These extras start at around ten dollars a month.

Collaborative

Celtx has a lot of collaborative features that allow many people to work on the same script together. This is great for films that are going into production as everyone involved can see the script, make changes to it, leave notes, and more – all in real-time.

This is a great tool for student filmmakers.

Not Perfect

Every new screenwriter should have some knowledge on how to format a script properly so if your screenwriting software isn’t working correctly, you’ll know how to make changes to get things looking and working correctly again.

While Celtx handles formatting well and is almost close to industry standards, the software still isn’t perfect.

The software will place (continued) on top of every new page, which isn’t needed.

Parentheticals in dialog should be on their own sperate line, which the software doesn’t automatically do.

Title pages are also a place where formatting can be a little different than industry standards, though to be fair, a program like Final Draft doesn’t handle title pages 100% correct either.

Conclusion

As an up-and-coming screenwriter, Celtx is a great option for you as it allows you to jump right into things and start writing. The icing on the cake is that its free.

Using Celtx will make you look more professional and will help you stand out from the thousands of other writers out there that choose to write their screenplays in Word Docs, really setting themselves up for failure before they even have typed…

… FADE IN.

Verdict

Recommend (especially for first-time or new-ish screenwriters).

You can download the Celix software here

BPS 263: How to Work with Hollywood Actors with Judith Weston

Right-click here to download the MP3

LINKS

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Alex Ferrari 2:01
I like to welcome the show Judy Weston, thank you so much for being on the show.

Judy Weston 3:41
Thanks, Alex.

Alex Ferrari 3:42
I appreciate I truly truly appreciate you coming on the show. Because your book directing actors, it was such a big part of my early directing education because a lot of the things that are in your book, they weren't teaching to me in film school, especially the film school I went to they really didn't focus a lot on the directing aspect of things. So your book was like a treasure trove, and still is a lot. I mean, there's nothing that's gone stale, all these techniques, you know, actors are still actors, directors are still directors, and your book was so instrumental in helping me in my directing career. So first of all, I want to just as a fan, thank you for writing it. Thank you, thank you for writing it and putting it out into the world and and we'll talk more about the book and the new version of it that just came out and other things. But before we get into it, I just want to ask you, how did you get in? How did you start on this journey on helping directors, you know, direct actors?

Judy Weston 4:36
You know, I was thinking about this, I knew you were gonna ask me this because people always start interviews with this and I'd listen to some of your others and, and, and, and I realized when I was thinking about it, and I realized how much I just like talking about myself and talking about my work. What I'd like to do is do the work and you know, help people like you say, but it I mean, the short answer of how I got into it as I was an actor, you know, I was an actor. And I began to see that some directors were good, and some were not. And I began to notice certain things. And I think it was the second I come up from theater. So in theater, you do a lot of rehearsal, and you have a lot of collaboration. And you never view your Will you never argue about changing lines in theater, but you can argue with your director all you want. So that's, you know, that's different about theater than film. And, but I loved I love getting into television and getting into film, I loved it right away. But the second job, I got the first job I got, I had the, like, maybe the best director in the world, and john Cordy. And the second job I got was for an afternoon special. I was living up in San Francisco, and they used to, that's where I'd gotten started acting, and they used to shoot up there was great place to shoot. Right? And, and cast the smaller roles from the local people. So I got this job as Miss Palmer, the, you know, the teacher, right after school special. So, and I, you know, so happy at my second job, that was very exciting to get a second job very soon after my first one. And I bounced up to the director on the first day. And I said to them, Oh, thank you. I'm so happy to be here. What shall we do with Miss Palmer? And, and he looked at me, like, I had two heads. And he said, Well, just do what you did in the audition. You were great. And, and I just thought, okay, okay. There are directors who don't know how to talk to actors, or who aren't interested in talking to actors and aren't interested in hearing ideas, or talking about or even talking about ideas, you know, even expressing their ideas are having ideas. And they're, they're kind of piecing things together. Like, it's a jigsaw puzzle. So, um, so I filed that away. I mean, I was an actor, I, I wasn't interested in teaching at that point, I wanted to, you know, work as an actor. And, but I, but I had been told by my acting teacher, Jeanne Shelton, you know, one of my major mentors, a mother figure, if you will, that I would, we had a special relationship and, and she always told me that someday I would teach. So at a certain point, when I started teaching, I remembered, you know, I remembered this, I'm sure, very wonderful. I'm sure you did a very good job with this after school special. And, you know, Miss Palmer that and I thought, you know, directors really need to know more about what actors do. You really, really need to know more about actors. And so I started out, I was just doing an acting class. For directors, I just said, I'm going to make it you know, once a week for eight weeks, people will, you know, they won't mind signing up for that. And, you know, I'll just teach them some acting. And I had, I had been teaching a class called acting for non actors. So I discovered that I was good at that I was good at getting people to, I was good at getting a performance out of somebody who never acted before. And, and so that and I thought, well, they'll figure it out themselves. If they get in the actors, shoes, they'll figure out for themselves, what's going on with actors, and they'll have more empathy, and they'll be able to communicate better. But people still kept asking me questions they kept asking me and the main questions were always, why do I need to know this? And how can I use it? And, and at first, I always I had the idea. Well, it should be obvious, it should be obvious you I'm teaching you about verbs. So it should be obvious that you should use verbs when you communicate with actors, but it wasn't so. So that was just fantastic. I always learned much more from my students than then I'm sure I ever taught them because they, you know, they, they they kept, they kept at me. Why do I need to know this? How can I use this? And so I thought, well, I got to figure that out. And so and they really pushed me to figure out exactly how, you know, precise ways that the tools that actors use, like, like backstory, emotional, or what I call emotional history, emotional history, verbs, objectives, you know, what the character wants from the other character imageries subtext imagery, the things that are going the memories and the and the ideas that are going On in the characters mind, and how those, you know how those could be directors tools, as well, you know, in addition to actors tools,

Alex Ferrari 10:09
So I'm going to give you I'm gonna tell you a story of when I first directed my first short film in college, please do your stories. So when I first when I got a group, I went to an acting studio, and I went there and befriended a bunch of actors, I said, Hey, guys, we're doing a short film. And it's, it was shooting in an apartment, it was some college, you know, like a bunch of college kids sitting around talking, it was, you know, the experience of that I had at that point in my life. So we got all these actors together, and they came over and, you know, had all my technical stuff, I was shooting with the cameras, and I had like, little crew together and everything. Then the actors started doing, they went outside to they started, like, kind of yelling and going like trying to shake something out of themselves, like bla bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, I had never seen anything like this before. And I'm like, Oh, my God, these people are crazy. And at that point, I realized all these people speak a completely different language than I do. They don't, they don't we are, it's like Earth and Mars and Venus. You know, it's like it literally, it's just speaking another language. And I was able to communicate with them. And I was empathetic, and I was able to get, you know, to a certain extent, there was some result that directing and there, there was some other things, you know, on the nose stuff that you do when you're a young director. But that was the first moment I realized, like, I need to understand how these, these collaborators speak, just like I had to learn cinematography, language, music, composing language, production, design, language, all the other departments. As a director, you need to understand their languages, but actors specifically because they're such an integral part of the storytelling process. And then that's when I picked up your book, and I started learning more about it with other too. But I feel that there's so many directors, so many directors that that run, when they get an actor like that, are actors like that. They're shocked. And they just don't know what to do, let alone with all the pressure of trying to actually make a movie, let alone a bunch of actors yelling and screaming and doing things that they've never seen before. Right, right. Did you ever take an acting class, I did, I took a couple acting classes. In my, in my day, I realized that I do not want to be an actor. Because it is I when I took the acting class, I realized, first of all, I became I became so empathetic to what an actor does, and how they do it. And the exposure that they put themselves out there to do what they do good actors, at least, to do what they do. And from that moment on, I was always very kind to in castings, and things like that, but from what I became your, your kind of person I tried, and that matters, that counts. I try, I try. But I always realized that even in castings, which are brutal, I mean, I've seen casting directors shred, you know, actors, you know, and if I had any sort of power in this situation, I made sure to stop it. But I've seen it, I always made sure to be extremely kind and courteous, and, and just just empathetic to what they do. Because it's, it's so it's such a sad thing, because you as an actor can prepare and do everything. And you might be awesome. And you might know your lines and everything, but you walk into that room, you just not might be you're not what they're looking for. And it's nothing, it's nothing personal. It's not you, it's not a judgment on you, your talent, I'm looking for someone who's six, five, African American, or and you happen to be five, eight, an agent and like it doesn't, it doesn't work, you know, it's your acting is fantastic. But it's not work for the part, or I have something in my head that it's not matching what's walking in. So I became very empathetic. And I think that's one of the keys of a good director is to have empathy for what they're doing. I think that's the starting point, then you build that relationship. Is that a fair statement?

Judy Weston 14:00
Oh, I think that's very important. I mean, you know, one thing that I used to tell my acting that the class I taught was called acting for directors, I taught it for 27 years. And this workshop was and was limited to 12 people, 12 directors, and I used to tell them, right in the beginning, I used to say Do you realize that actors think of people who are not actors as civilians, that they feel in a completely different world. And you know, that they're, they're in a fight they're in a battle. They're in a you know, they're, well not not a battle. It's fun, you know, they love it, but so they're not going to get killed, like

Alex Ferrari 14:49
I use. I use the analogy of battle all the time. I always say I always tell people I have shrapnel constant. I have a lot of shrapnel inside of me from this business. So I completely understand

Judy Weston 14:59
That but but But actors, you know, they feel like people who are different from everybody else on the planet. And that includes everyone else on the on the film set,

Alex Ferrari 15:09
Which says a lot, because we're crazy.

Judy Weston 15:14
But not it but but actor still, actually sometimes I sometimes I make the analogy to, it's it's like, like teenagers, you know that that not that actors are more childish or more, you know, less mature or less developed than, than adults but, but that, but the way that adults think they like teenagers but they really don't, that teenagers are too out of control. They're too, they're too out of control. And, and adults think, you know, they love their children, and they, but they really don't like teenagers and, and that I think that actors feel that way, sometimes on a phone set that, that people, you know, they love them, they, they need them, but they don't really like them. They don't really like, you know, they're there, that they're that actors are loud, and they hug too much and things like that. And, and, and they mean, they, you know, can be temperamental, and, and if they're not temperament, you know, if they don't express the temperament, they're feeling they shut down. And, and you can't get them back just by dialing up dialing a knob. So, you know, it's so they bond together, you know, they, they hang out together, and they feel more comfortable. And, and it's, you know, you have to get invited into that. And, and to as well as to respect it and to see it as a craft, and not just like, you know, a childish thing that we're running around. And, you know, being to advertise

Alex Ferrari 16:53
It and pretend you're pretending

Judy Weston 16:56
Yeah, but but to it, but anyway, it can be just so exciting to, for a director to understand enough about actors that, that you know, how to invite yourself in, and or get invited rather, you know, and that's, that's what we, that's what we mean by trust, is that, you know, as is. And one thing I want to say about, because one of the questions, directors always asked me, where they would always ask, How do I get actors to trust me? And? And my answer is you to get if you want someone to trust you, you must trust them. That's the, that's the, that's the secret. And it's a very simple one. It's hard to remember it sometimes. But it's a very, very simple one, and has to do a lot with my principle of opposites. I think opposites are, you know, crucial in so many ways. But if you want somebody to trust you, you must trust them. And, and, and, you know, directors are often young directors are mistrustful of actors. They're, they're sort of instantly in damage control. They're, they're looking around saying, but as soon as the actor does something strange, they're thinking, Oh, she wants to ruin my movie? And how can I? How can I? How can I rein her in to keep her from ruining my movie? And I don't know, actress are not like that at all. They really, really want to help. They really want to, you know, they want to be they, they they want to be engaged with the director, they they may want to fight, but it's, you know, it's ideally, they're fighting over ideas. They're fighting over interpretations. And, and, you know, not not over. I mean, actors know, that they're that the director is the leader. And I don't, I don't I don't think of it that way is that as most of the actors I know, they're not fighting for control. They're fighting for ideas. And, and, and and Excuse me, I know you want to say something, but but it's always always good to treat people as if they're fighting over ideas and fighting over the work. Instead of fighting for control. It's always better to keep go to keep the focus on the work and not on the ego.

Alex Ferrari 19:26
Yeah, gosh, yes. My latest movies called on the corner of ego and desire for a reason. It's not about him. It's about filmmakers. It's so there's, I completely understand what you're saying. And I'm going to give you my experience, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. I find it that actors at least from from my years of directing, actors want a safe space, and they want to feel protected by their director to go out on the limb because they do the great performances in history. are actors going out there without a net In a safe space, because they, they have to feel that there's somebody there to catch them if they go too far, or if they wander, or anything, and they need that safe space to play. And if you can give an actor that safe space, you're able to create that bond with them. And then they can grow more, and they can do more, and they can experiment more. But the second, this second, an actor does not feel safe. That's when they shut down. That's when they start trying to take control because they're in damage control for themselves. A lot of times I've seen it, it's happened to me early in my career. I've watched it on sets where actors literally have no relationship with the director. And they just, they're just like, Well, look, I'm here, I'm going to now this is about me, I got to protect myself. And I got to make sure my performance, and they just block it. And then this is all this is all but it all stems from having that safe space, having someone that you know, this person has your back. Is that in your from your experience, is that fair to say?

Judy Weston 21:01
Here's how Yes, exactly. But here's how I, here's how I translate or, or what you're talking what we say about safe space, so important for any creative endeavor. And the way I think of it in a way that I think is more easy to remember more easy to do, is its permission to fail. So one time as a student of mine, after the workshop, she created this beautiful, artistic painting, for me, and on the theme of give yourself and everyone you work with permission to fail. And that's, that's the key thing is that, you know, you can have the idea that you want to give a safe space. But if you're, if you're criticizing, if you're correcting if you're if you're in or if you're you know, if the disappointment is written all over your face, then it's so helpful to keep a forward movement to keep focused on the glass half full instead of the glass half empty, you know, focused on what what's going going well, and then kept saying, well, let's keep working. You know, let's keep working I, you know, you can say you can say something like that, I think we've got more than you can say, you don't have to pretend you like it if you don't. But you can you can say things like, I think there's farther we can go I think there's another layer we can get, you know, you can put it in that in that positive forward way. And you don't have to tell them what it is, you know, you If a If an actor isn't what you think of is there. You can ask them, say to them, you know, I think we can go. I think you can go further here. But you don't have to tell them what to do. It's, you know, you don't have to tell them how to do their job. You can you know, it? I think that's a place where directors get mis mixed up, where they think well, I don't have the language so I can't tell them how to fix what's wrong. Well, you don't have to tell them how to fix what's wrong. You can you can tell them. You know, I go back to some of the you know, some of the greats you know, like William Wyler, back moldable old super old school. Well, I'll just mention to your readers, they may never have heard of William Wyler, but

Alex Ferrari 23:38
it's Billy Wilder. Yes, of course. Ability by William Wallace. Oh, no, it's a different one that Oh, okay. Okay. Did I get that wrong? William Wyler. You might you might I know Billy Wilder, but I don't know. I don't I have not heard of William Wilder. I might be I might have heard of him. I just don't remember off the top of my head.

Judy Weston 23:57
Okay, okay. Well, Director of Well, okay, nevermind though. He directed Ben Hur. He directed a bunch of things back in the day. Anyway, a bunch of Academy Award winning movies, but he's been dead a long time. Anyway, he used to after every after every take, he would just say Do it again. He would never give any particular direction he would say Do it again. And Chrissy shot a lot of film. You know, he's he's cost the studio's a lot of money. Because he would shoot and shoot and shoot without and and then eventually though, the actress would figure it out for themselves. Exactly. Presumably the camera running

Alex Ferrari 24:48
Yeah, in like my last film I did I I basically was a lot of improv and those films and and I just kind of gave the actors a really beautiful You know, chorale to play. And I'm like, Okay, guys, let's have some fun. Let's play. And that's my first film was very experienced, like extremely experienced actors. My second film was young actors. And it was wonderful to watch how I just like, hey, let's just play. And the difference between the season the actor in the in the younger actors, because the season actors were like, this is fantastic. I've never had so much fun in my life, there's no pressure, because it was so stress free, and it was like an anti film set. And then the second one everyone was they had no idea. They were just like, this is fantastic, too. But they were more scared if they were more scared of like approval and things. And I had the pleasure of directing Robert Forster in a project. Yeah, who just who just passed. And oh, he was wonderful. He was one of the sweetest souls I ever met. And when I worked with Robert, I was a young is going back 10 years, I was a young director. He was Academy Award nominee Robert Forster, who's worked with Quentin Tarantino and many other big time directors. And he was as courteous to me and work so hard on the project, as if you will be working on a set with content here. Now, it was fascinating to watch. And even when I gave him direction, he would turn to me. And honestly say, was that what you wanted? Are you okay? Do you want me to do it again, he was kind of like coaching me a little bit on how to because I was intimidated. I was like, Jesus, this is you know, I mean, it was fascinating to to work with someone like him he was. So he comes from an older generation, obviously. But that generation of work ethic, and he's like, it was a short film he was doing for me as a favor. And he came in and he just did his work. And it was wonderful to work. When you work with seasoned actors, you realize, Oh, this is what it's really supposed to be like, with a seasoned dp or seasoned production designer, anybody? It's fascinating. It really is. One question I want to ask you, um, we talk a lot about this. It's something that you and I both understand what it is, but I really think the audience will benefit from your explanation of it. What is result direction?

Judy Weston 27:16
Okay. It's best Explained with Examples. And that's how I started out the first chapter of directing actors with these examples of result direction. So for what, for one example, line meetings, that that's the simplest, that's as simple as I think that most people recognize, you know, telling the actor, let's pick a line. Let's say the line is, when are you coming home tonight? And, and the actor says, when you coming home tonight? And then the director says, Well, don't say it that way. Say, when are you coming home tonight, you know that that line lines, that's a library. So that's a that's very clearly that's the result. That's so that's the result the way you want the line to be said. And that's maybe the simplest and most easily understandable example of result direction is, is telling the actor how you how you want it to be said and, and it's and really directors really have to get away from it really. I mean, what I just did, oh, the simplest way to translate what I just did was with intention or verb, when I said, What are you coming home tonight, you know that I had the I had the verb the intention to invite you to come home, and to be welcome whenever you got here. And when I say when you're coming home tonight, I have there's I'm accusing. Right. So that's my verb is to accuse. Or you could call it an accusatory tone. I like to use the verb to accuse. And, and, and if if, if directors start to understand the difference between, you know, I just want to hear it the way I hear it in my head, versus what's going on underneath. What is this character doing? What does this character want? What effect does the character want to have on the other character? Does the does the character want the other character to feel welcome and to feel to feel warm? Or does the other does the character want the other character to feel threatened, you know, like, like you better do what you what you're supposed to do, or else you'll be in trouble. And so so that's a simple example of you know, instead of the we're asking for the result, to give some thought to, you know, what the intention is underneath. Another one of courses is to ask for mood, you know, can you make it more quirky? Can you make it can you make it funnier? Can you be angrier, those can of things, those are result directions and emotional result be angrier. be cuter, you know, things like that be more disappointed.

Alex Ferrari 30:12
So let's say instead of saying your anger you would maybe would you suggest like talking to the actor I'm like, okay, instead of this part, you obviously could say I want you to be angrier.

Judy Weston 30:24
And it's very, it's, you can say what you can say that yes, of course. Yeah, of course you can. But I want to tell anybody No, be the language police.

Alex Ferrari 30:33
Okay, can you make it a little angrier? No. But then if you can talk to them in the sense of the scene, like, you know what, instead of doing get angry, I'm like, you just found out that she's cheating on you. Go with that? Is that a direct? I mean, if that's the tone you want, cuz if he like, I, you know, what was that that line? What was the line? You just said? Are you coming home for dinner? If you say you just found out that she's cheating on you, and you say that line, it's gonna have a completely different energy behind it? Is that a good way of doing it?

Judy Weston 31:06
Here's the thing, I really think it, you know, should connect to the script somehow, of course, and it should also be a collaborative with the actor. So I always, I always will ask, I've always will start with a question. I'll always ask the actor, what do you think is going on here? Okay, instead of jumping in with telling them, what I how I want them to do it. And especially if you're saying you just found out that, that she's cheated on you, if it's not in the script? I mean, that's, uh, you know, of course, you can make that adjustment, you can make that, you know, as if you just found out that she's cheated on you. That's perfectly permissible to make adjustments that are different from the facts that are given in the script. But But I don't know, I don't feel quite right. Just unloading that on an actor, you know, because I'm still asking for a result. You know, I'm just pretending that I'm not. I it's really a little bit lengthier process of asking, what do you think is going on? What do you want from this in this scene? And, and one thing I want to find out first, by asking that question is, do they have an idea that they're really invested in? That I would be very well served by listening to? Okay, okay. So, um, you know, if they, if I say, what, what's your idea about the scene? What do you want here? What are you working on? And if they say, Well, I, and they've remote, well might say, I know, you want this angrier than what I just did. But I have this idea that I'm going to trick her into thinking I'm not angry. And then, you know, and then surprise her with, with with the disaster later on, then, you know, that's a real idea. That's, you know, that and that's, that's worth that's worth looking at, that's worth paying attention to. And then, and then you can say, I totally, and you can still say I totally understand that. That's a great idea. I really love it. Here's the reason why I think he starts out with accusation right out of the box, then you give them an you know, you give them a reason. And, yeah,

Alex Ferrari 33:33
So. So. Thank you. That was that was fantastic. I think I was very beneficial. For everyone listening. The The one thing I see when I look at a performance, especially when you're looking at shows or movies is the honesty behind it. And that honesty is something that you can smell. You can say most people can't pinpoint it. They'll just go, or I didn't really connect to that or it didn't. That's why anytime Meryl Streep just gets in front of a camera. You feel like she's g ism. It's magical, how she just embodies whatever she does so effortlessly at this point in her career. And she's been doing it for she's been doing it for decades. But her the honesty in those performances. And if you look at the best actors and best actresses and supporting over the years, there's an honesty to those performances. That is, so you just can't put anything on it. That you can't you can't define it. It's not something that can be definable. But when you don't see it, you can see it. When you don't see it in the performance, you can feel it. So it's like sometimes my wife who's not in the business, will be watching the show. And she's like, she's a horrible actress. And I look at her I go Yeah, I understand what you're saying. It's like because it's like so one dimensional. There's like there's nothing. There's no gas behind the pedal, if you will. How do you nurture an honest performance? Is that something that is Brought, the actor needs to mean how can you pull that out of them or nurture them to be able to perform to perform that way for you?

Judy Weston 35:08
So the principle that I like to talk about and promote and encourage people to embrace is the idea that it's not a collection of single performances. But it is a configuration of relationships, that the story is about relationships and not about performances. And you know, it's not about the individual characterizations. It's about the relationships. And when you talk about Meryl Streep, one of the things about I remember a long time ago, back when, inside the Actor's Studio was a big deal. And of course, I watched everyone, and I used to tape them and rewatch them and and, and Meryl Streep was on. And then that guy, that interviewer that everyone complained about?

Alex Ferrari 36:05
Lifted, lifted. Yes,

Judy Weston 36:07
I know, I know, he was he was so well meaning and he put the whole thing together. So you know, you have to give him props. But he could be Well, anyway, so one time we said she was on, and he was asking her a whole bunch of stuff. And then all of a sudden, he said to her, how much of your performance do you get from the other actor, and I'll never forget the look on her face, the camera was on her, and she went red, she went red, she looked like she'd been slapped. And she said, Well, all of it, I get all of my performance from the other actor, I have no performance until the other actor is there. And it was like she was hurt to be that at the suggestion, because, you know, she's known as a kind of a technician and, you know, as making every character completely different from everyone else. And, and she used to be faulted for that, you know, not anymore, you know, now she's kind of accepted for the queen, she always was. But, um, but the idea that she crafts her performance all by itself in the laboratory, and brings it in and, and presents it to the camera was complete, she was letting us know, that was completely wrong. That was completely not what she was doing, that she creates prompts for herself, she, you know, she would give her a lot of herself a lot to work with. But then she would give herself over to the other to the other actor in the scene. It's the term that actors use for this is listening. But it's much more than just hearing, it's much more than just something you do with your ears. It's it's a, it's a surrender, it's a service, you take all of your preparation, and all of your preparation, of course, hopefully will have been honest, you will have been done done honest preparation, not just, you know, making something up because you think it would be cool, or you think it would be interesting, but something that you honestly know about life, either it's because you know about it from your own life, or from observation of other people and, and, and imagining people in circumstances that you've never experienced and research you, but you do all of that you do your your personal exploration, your observation, your research, you're imagining you do all that, honestly, ahead of time. But then when you get on the set with the other actor, you get you forget it, you you you almost let it go and you give yourself over, you respond in the moment to the other actor. That's how it looks honest. That's how it looks natural.

Alex Ferrari 38:59
That's excellent, great answer. Great answer. Now, if you're not getting the performance you want out of an actor, what are some tips you can use? Besides, you know, taking a stick out? I'm joking. No, but believe me, there's probably some directors listed. But like, What do you mean, it's a wrong thing? Not to take the stick out? No, um, you know, if there's a way to if you're not getting the performance you want, because we've all looked directors have all been there. We have not gotten the performance we want out of a certain actor, and vice versa. The actor has not been able to get the

Judy Weston 39:31
Give me an example though. Like what what were they not? What were they doing that you didn't want or not doing that you did want?

Alex Ferrari 39:38
They're either getting in their own head, and they're, let's say they're saying the line and they're saying it the same way, no matter how many different ways you tell them to change it. They still are saying the exact same way and they think in their head that they're changing it but everyone listening is going not insert you're not changing it. And I think they get caught up in their own head and then they start spiraling, they'll start spiraling down a dark hole, and then it could go, it can go dark. So if you're not aware of that, you can lose them, not only for the day for possibly for the project. So if you start seeing things like that, what are some tips or techniques that you can use to try to bring them back out?

Judy Weston 40:17
Well, that particular thing of actors getting stuck in line readings, you should find out on casting, you should not cast an actor who does that. So one of the things for casting, I have this whole set of ideas that I think are helpful for auditions. Where, first of all, you let you they come in, you let them do you say, I really want to see what you've brought in. And you know, have them do what they want. But you say ahead of time, I want to see what you've brought in. But no matter how perfect it is, we're going to work with that a little bit what I'm going to give you some some other direction. And then even if you love it, you should still work with them, give them some other direction, and make sure the lines come out differently. That's where you have to make sure that the actor can change their line reading with a different adjustment. Because there are actors who have been improperly taught or, you know, untrained or, or improperly trained, who fall into line readings like that. And sometimes the only way you can get out of that is by changing the line on them, you know, just before the scene starts, that's what, you know, some, some directors do. And so, yeah, it really it's a it's a really, it's failing in their training you and you shouldn't work with you, but you need to find it out in in auditions. Now, if they are a very good actor. And it's a total shock to you, maybe it's somebody you didn't even audition because you you know, because they either they don't audition or, or things are, are so perfect. You could take them aside. And and you could say, you know what, the funniest thing is happening. I feel like the library, we're falling into a lot. And you could you don't have to say you are falling into you say we're falling into a line reading here. And I don't know what to do about it, it feels it's starting to feel a little stale. And I can you tell me what to do. Now, obviously, this should be said with nobody else around, please. Thank you. Yeah, this, this is something that's very important to say, to all your wonderful listeners is, I believe every time you talk to an actor, it should be in private, every single time. Now, if you're saying something like I just described, which is so sensitive, that never, you know, you have to really look around, make sure no one's in earshot. Not even another actor. But But even for very innocuous and even banal seeming interactions with a director with an actor, it's really better to have privacy there. I mean, the, the absolute worst thing you could do is to yell and direction from be behind the monitor, you know, or behind the camera, the camera where everybody in the whole set can hear to say, you know, to yell it low, make it angry, you know, make it angrier, or, or, or that was horrible, whatever it is, I was horrible. And that was that wasn't it? That wasn't what I told you. You know, I mean, that would be the absolute horribleness. And, and, you know, I mean, I'm going to assume that the directors who are listening to your podcasts are aware enough that they would never do something like that. But, um, but but, you know, always go up to the actor, always go up after every take, go up to them, even if you have nothing to say, even if you go up to them, and you just smile at them and say, you know, I got nothing to say but we're going to go again, you know, that that to make a personal connection, and anything you say to them, you know, if you say, I think we should try a different adjustment. What ideas do you have that that you say that privately or even if you very specifically say I want you to really punish her this time, you know, that you you don't let anybody over here that but especially the crew, not to let any of the crew over here because here's why. Here's why is that you know, the crew then becomes an audience and they become a assess, you know, judgers, they become judgers, they hear the direction, and then they're watching the actor to say she can do that this time or not, you know, and And the there's no need for that. There. That's not what they're hired for, they're hired for, you know, they're very, very skilled at what they do. And that's what they're hired for. They're not hired to, to judge whether, you know, whether the performance and, and, and you know, and sometimes people ask me, they say, well, gosh, you know, what if it's, you know, you're shooting in a small location, a small room and the sound guy and the, and the camera operator, they're, they're close by, you know, it isn't possible to talk to the actors without them over hearing. And I have to say, Well, yes, it is, you know, you could whisper.

Alex Ferrari 45:44
Yes. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Judy Weston 45:57
It's not that hard. But But, you know, you could whisper but you could also talk to the people, though, particularly the sound Person of the camera operator that are, you know, that are going to be close up. And it's going to be, you know, difficult for them to leave their equipment and move away, you could say to them ahead of time, you know, I am going to want to speak to the actors privately after every take. And I'm, I'm not going to banish you from the room for each of those occasions, but, but I'd like to ask you to not listen, I'd like to ask you to turn your attention away. And, and allow and give us the privacy. You know, and you could say, Are you willing to do that? And they're not going to say no, of course no, then they're going to try their best. And then besides that you can whisper

Alex Ferrari 46:50
The good, always a good metric on if a scene is really powerful. If you can make a grip cry, that's generally a really good indication that you've nailed something. I've had that happen. A couple of thoughts on my Sam, like, you just made the crip cry. That was fantastic.

Judy Weston 47:12
I always when I was when I was acting in you know, TV shows or whatever, I always, I was used to the theater. So I loved an audience I, you know, I like to, I'd like to have an audience. So I was always playing to the, to the, to the room, to the room, you know, to the to the technic to the crew. And so I used to like it when sometimes because I never, I never was the lead in a big in a in a television, movie or show but but I used to like it if if it's, you know, one of the crew members would come up to me and afterwards and say, yeah, you are a real actress. So I really thought you were great. So So especially Chris, sometimes it just meant that they they were irritated with the star. But now I want to be so mean, oh, no crews, no

Alex Ferrari 48:06
look crews, it's my job as a director to create a safe space. If I've had I've had crew people walk up and say that just the crew not cruel, but just dumb things, or something that throws an actor off their, their their game. And as soon as I find out about that I fire or either have a stern talking to or fire that act that that crew member because you can't have that kind of energy on set if you're trying to create a good environment for not only for the actors, but for everybody involved.

Judy Weston 48:38
I know I mean, sometimes I think it's you know, it's the crew wants attention to they want to be respected and it you know, but it's not a zero sum game. You know, it doesn't have to be if the actors are respected, the crew is disrespected, it's not zero.

Alex Ferrari 48:54
We're all in this together. We're all in this together. Now, one one area of directing that doesn't get spoken about much, but it is something that we all a lot of directors will have to deal with is directing children. Any tips on directing children? Because I've directed I've directed children a handful of times in commercials, and it's fun to say the least. But I've never had to polish a very dramatic performance out of a child or anything like that, though. I've heard some horrific stories out directors get those performances, which are illegal here in the States, but I've heard them elsewhere. That's been pretty, pretty brutal as well.

Judy Weston 49:30
I know I think I know the movie you're talking about, but we won't get into that but yeah, but uh, well, you know, I, I think you know, people should know that when a child is younger than seven and a half or eight. Then if you make them go through really difficult, terrible emotions, they will be damaged. That is the way it is, Do you have children?

Alex Ferrari 50:02
I do. And they're about their, their, their that range range.

Judy Weston 50:07
So when children are, let somebody told me this once and it just opened everything up, when children are, when they get to like seven and a half or eight, probably, then they start to have an independent imagination. They start to have independent, well independent ideation. And they can look around at the world and make up their own mind about what's going on. But when they're younger than eight, everything that comes in, is there like a sponge. You know, they they believe everything. That's why they believe in Santa Claus. They're told they're Santa Claus. I mean, it's very unlikely, right?

Alex Ferrari 50:47
Sure. There's just listlessly Santa Claus is real. Let's just put that out there. I don't know where this rumor started. It is horrible. Let's just put it out there. I just thought, let's put it into it. Santa Claus is real. Just in case my daughter's ever listened to this. So let's just put that right to this. Santa Claus is real. I'm hoping to get at least one or two more years out of it. So please.

Judy Weston 51:12
Yes, yes, Virginia. So, um, but they will believe whatever they're, they're told, because they don't have any Intel eight, eight. It's, and it's not, it's not a question of, you know, some children are more mature than others. It's wiring in the brain. It's, it's the, it's the development of the brain. So if a child is younger than eight, and and you're asking them to go through horrible things, they will be damaged that and and, yeah, you know, so you don't want to do that one of my students, Jennifer Fox, she directed this movie for that was bought by HBO, it's called the tail. I don't know, if people have heard of it, it was, it was kind of a big deal. It was about it had to do with the, you know, child sexual abuse. And the girl was so 13 and, and she'd cast an 11 year old to two. But and she talked at great length, how she avoided any possibility of any, you know, damage to the girl in these really brutal sex scenes, and, or rape scenes. And, and she, she did what whenever there, there had to be scenes, whenever it had to be shot where both the child and the perpetrator were in the same shot, she had an adult body double. And, you know, and shot it so that, you know, that wouldn't be noticeable. And when there had to be close ups of the girls face. The it was just the girl, the actor playing the perpetrator not present and and Jennifer saying to her, this is like a bee is stinging, you know, thing. So, uh, you know, that kind of thing to take it, to take it to take it out of there. So

Alex Ferrari 53:14
You got to put it, you have to put it down to their level. You can't say, Okay, now you're getting raped. And this is the way it is? No, no. I mean, I know you and I look at us like, this is funny, but but that's what that's what people will do. I've seen it. I'm like, dude, you can't say that. But to bring it down to the level of the child and just go. And I love that stinging the beast thinking thing is wonderful. It's a wonderful analogy of it, because that's how you have to direct the child. You have to speak that if you have to go through two levels of language, the actual language and the child language. So you have to kind of do both.

Judy Weston 53:51
Exactly. And and then you still do it if people are interested, you know, look up interviews with Jennifer Fox about this movie, The tale. There's really good stuff there. The other place to look for great advice about working with children is on the extras. The DVD extras of a movie called rabbit proof fence. You do know I know. I know that I know that movie. Yeah. I am blanking on the director's name. How could that be this wonderful? Australian director?

Alex Ferrari 54:28
Yes, it was an Australian film. I forgot the name of it too. But we'll look it up. Don't

Judy Weston 54:33
worry. Okay. Insert it later. Okay. Because I don't think it'll be in the show notes. I'll

Alex Ferrari 54:39
put it in the show notes. Don't worry.

Judy Weston 54:40
Yeah. And um, and it's a wonderful movie. Well, as you know, since you've seen it, it has three leads children. Their ages are nine, seven and five. That's really dangerous spots. Dangerous spots and Um, anyway, he goes, he goes into great detail, he does a commentary on the whole show, working with them. And then there's an extra, you know, little feature add about the casting, and the, you know, rehearsal with with them, which is fantastic. Now, some of that, it, there's a 40, the 40 minute featurette is on the YouTube, so you can find it. Rabbit proof fence making of featurette. And it's really, really helpful. You know, and as I listened, I listened to it a number of times. And, and if I boiled down what he did, he looked for, for children who had who could play an objective, and who had imagination, and who were not afraid of the camera. And, you know, that's, that's the main thing and it took a long time to, to find them. That's the other thing, if you have a dramatic lead. This was a drama rabbit proof fence. You must take all the time you need to find your lead. I had read, you know, beasts of the Southern wild, what, which is wonderful movie quarter. And they found that little girl. I mean, you can't imagine anybody else in the world playing that role. Well, the director said in interviews that he met with 4000 children 4000

Alex Ferrari 56:39
Spielberg, I mean, as a Kubrick for the shining, he met I think around four or 5000 kids at the time as well. I mean, they all do the good ones, you have to just keep looking until you find the right one.

Judy Weston 56:51
I was just listening to I can't remember where I where I heard this. But somebody's talking about the director of To Kill a Mockingbird. So now we're at, you know, Lisa, Southern Wilds just a few years ago, rabbit proof fence was I don't know, maybe 10 years ago, something like that. And but it Kill a Mockingbird made a long time ago. And and what this director used to say for the rest of his life, people would say, Where did you find those children? And he said, I searched for six months. So this is something that has always been true. That, that you have to, you know, to find a child that has the imagination, and the and the commitment, though, there's an objective, you know, the objective has to do again, with listening. It's like, I want something from you. And I'm paying attention to you as to whether or not I get it, you know, are Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 57:54
And I think also another element of that is this true connection. You know, as a director, you're looking for a connection with your actors on a, you know, on a different level than just performer and director, especially with children, there has to be a rapport. There has to be a comfort level, there has to be that intangible thing when you're working, especially when commercials are different. But But if you're working in a, in a narrative scenario, there has to be some sort of thing there. Because if there isn't, that's the thing, you're going to fall back on when the things get really rough or tough. In the in the scale of just making a movie, that connection, that rapport is so so important. I remember watching Spielberg some behind the scenes of close encounter of the Third Kind if you remember that that scene with a little boy, that you remember the little boy in close encounter that. I bet they Yeah, yeah, there was a there's a little boy in close encounters and the the scene where the aliens open the door, and we don't see the aliens yet we just the door opens and the little boys there. And then one to get there to direct them. Spielberg had one scene, a guy dressed up as a werewolf, jump out really quickly. This kind of jarred them. And then he was like, scared for a second. And then Spielberg jumped out as a bunny rabbit dressed in a bunny rabbit outfit. And he knew it was Spielberg because he's the director. And he jumped out and then he just started to smile. And that's how he pulled the performance out of that child. And that's why Spielberg, Spielberg, and he did that back in 7776. It wasn't like, older Spielberg it was young Spielberg. That's just genius.

Judy Weston 59:38
Now, I was gonna say it's young Spielberg, but yes, yeah, he seems like a kid himself.

Alex Ferrari 59:44
Yeah, and still is some it's too many too many ways. Now, I could keep talking to you for hours today, but I'm going to ask you a few last questions. I asked all my guests. Yeah. What advice would you give a filmmaker or director trying to get into the business today?

Judy Weston 59:59
Okay. Do you mean other than go to film school? Yes, I think people should go to film school. I, you know, I'm not one of these people that says film school is unnecessary. Film School may be out of reach financially. For some people, that's certainly understandable. But I don't buy these people who say, Oh, you know, let's say they, they can afford to go to film school and they and they say film, school is a waste waste of time, I don't buy that. I think it's very important not to just try to be a filmmaker all by yourself, you have to, you have to work with other people. That's one of the best things about film school, even, you know, hopefully, you have good teachers and a good curriculum. But even if you don't you have other people that you're working with, and you can learn from them. And, you know, film is a collaborative, collaborative medium. And it's, it's good to start practicing with that, it's good to start practicing with the idea that you have to trust these other people, you have to communicate with them, you have to listen to their ideas, you have to learn from them. So I I'm a believer in film school, I think, I think it's a good idea. Now, I know, some people can't afford it. And now I am supporting political candidates that are trying to propose ways that anybody who wants to go to college can do that. But,

Alex Ferrari 1:01:27
But there's a lot of affordable, there's a lot of affordable film schools out there can even even community colleges have, you know, there's so many options out there

Judy Weston 1:01:35
even, you know, even in Hollywood, there's Santa Monica College, there's, there's la CC, you know, there's, there's community colleges, so I'm, I'm a, I'm a believer in that I'm a you know, and, and a big part because of the community because of learning from other people, and not just thinking about how do I become a filmmaker, but, you know, how do I build my community? How do I build my, my, you know, my relationships, and my, and, and, and my, my, my tribe? How do I, how do I find my tribe, so I, I, that that's what, that's what I feel now, if you're, if for whatever reason you feel like you can't bear, I do reject the idea that film, school is a waste of time. But if you feel like for whatever reason, you can't bear to go to film school, you know, the school is just that disorienting to you, or whatever, then you have to find some other way to make connections, I mean, networking as a part of it. And, and, and being you know, finding people to collaborate with and, but you know, you start whatever way is right for you, if color is your thing, then figure out how to tell a story with color. If, but, but I do feel that all directors should take an acting class at some point, I agree with you. And and and if you end it, not an end to not do it, because you're going to decide whether or not you're good at it. It doesn't matter if you're good at it. It's it's a question of, of, you know, exposing yourself taking a chance you have to have a teacher who's not going to criticize you. That's I mean, when I don't teach that class anymore acting for directors, but part of what made it work was that I was very supportive, but but, you know, anyway, I was taking an acting class and do find your tribe.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:42
I will I'll tell you, I had the unpleasant experience of having to act in my last movie, playing myself no less. That's the only reason I took the job was because I was playing myself. And man, I hate when I was editing it, I made sure to cut myself out as much as humanly possible. So I do truly believe I agree with you 100% actor a director should definitely take an acting class so they can feel what it's like, why

Judy Weston 1:04:09
you should take a class, you know, yeah, I like Quentin Tarantino put himself in Pulp Fiction is what's industry. Well, for some

Alex Ferrari 1:04:18
Mr. Wolf, it was he knows. Jimmy he was Jimmy

Judy Weston 1:04:23
Koch some colleague of Mr. Wolf i think but but anyway, Jimmy Yeah. And you know, it was a little bit of a dead spot but you know, and otherwise, you know, almost perfect movie but but so I don't think you I don't mean that directors should go in front of the camera, but they agree.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:42
Agreed. No director should not be in front of the camera. I'm not saying that at all. Please. No, no, no. Okay, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Judy Weston 1:04:51
Yes, I prepared for this because I heard you ask other people. It's this everyone is different. That's been the hardest lesson for me. Because I am a very inward person. I'm an introvert. And I don't think I hopefully I don't sound like one in this interview, but I am. And, and so, so much is going on inside my head. And it tends to be sort of impossible for me to understand that the same kinds of things are not going on in other people's heads. So that's where I've made a mistake a lot of times, is, you know, jumping in when I think other people, you know, I think there are certain assumptions that everybody has. So to really, really listen, because everybody is different. And as far as how that applies to directing and teaching, every actor is different. And every, every client that I work with, I'm not teaching workshops, now I'm doing one on one consultations, with film directors preparing to, you know, to make their movie, and, and every single client is different. Every single script is different, every single, you know, and to be insatiable, about, you know, turning myself over to them, listening to them, finding out what they need, instead of imposing my idea about what they need. And I have to learn that every day. It's still it's always a struggle, because I have very strong ideas.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:30
Fair enough, fair enough. Now, what is the biggest fear you had to overcome? Just getting into this business in the first place? Or or being an actress or or writing your first book? or teaching your first class? What is that biggest fear?

Judy Weston 1:06:45
Oh, gosh, well, as an actress, I was less afraid on stage than offstage. I was a shy and frightened person, offstage and onstage, you know, but on stage, I wasn't afraid. So I don't know how that happened. But, but I just was so lucky to find to find it. So my biggest fear, my biggest fear was that I wouldn't get to do it. You know, once I started teaching, I loved it so much like the first night that I taught my very first class, I couldn't sleep the whole night, I came home, and I just couldn't sleep the whole night. And that used to happen. After every tech class, I taught for a long time. And my only fear was that I wouldn't get to keep doing it. So I don't know I that would be, I think you have to find a part of the, you know, if you want to be in the business, you have to find a part of the business that, that that that makes you feel like your home, you know, enough? I think you do,

Alex Ferrari 1:07:53
And the three and three of your favorite films of all time.

Judy Weston 1:07:56
All right, I know this was coming to so I decided what I decided to do is to start with just in the last year and a half. You know, I mean, because I'm an older person and I don't know that your your reader your listenership wants to hear, oh, the 70s nothing good after it happened after the 70s in American films. But so, so I decided to think about the my three favorites of the last, I was gonna say a year, but then I stretched it a few years to include first reformed, which came out a year and a half ago, first report by Paul Schrader with Ethan Hawke. And then currently parasite is in the film is in the theaters now. Which is so have you seen it? I have not. No. All right, you've got to see it's brilliant, brilliant movie. And then earlier this year, the last black man in San Francisco. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:08:52
I heard wonderful things about that. Yeah.

Judy Weston 1:08:54
So those three movies of the last three last year and a half or you know, movies that I really want everybody to see that I that move, move me tremendously. Now, if you want to include television, then of course we'd all that's a whole other conversation. Yeah. It's so good. When they see us, you know, because that was directed by one of my students Ava DuVernay. And, and then oh, and then, you know, yesterday, I saw Jojo rabbit and I thought, well,

Alex Ferrari 1:09:25
I'm dying to see Jojo rabbit I hear it looks so amazing. And I just hope it does. I hope it's it's it looks like it's as good as it I hope it is.

Judy Weston 1:09:35
I think it surprises people a bit. I loved it. I loved it. I loved it. And that and then tyka has taken classes with me too. So um, so it's very dear to my heart and, and I love movies where you have to kind of you have to kind of figure something out about the filmmakers heart, right and, and there are what you could call their intention. Then Jojo rabbit to really understand it and enjoy it, you have to kind of find your way into Tycho's heart. And of course, I've seen all his movies. So I sort of, and I've worked with him and and, you know, some already there but, but But anyway, it's really worthwhile even if you don't know him already. And then and that's true of Ava is that, you know, they, you know, you you, you get clues to, you know, the heart of another human being. And, and it's true of parasite. And it's true of last black man in San Francisco. And it's true of first reformed and, and so anyway, that's awesome, somewhat current movies. I won't go back and talk about a woman under the influence. Well, of course, Jones has a video.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:46
I mean, it's fantastic Friday afternoon, I'm not going to mention that. I mean, well, the fantastic of if you can absolutely mentioned both those films are fantastic and should be watched by everybody. Now, currently, you just released the audio book version of your, your seminal book, directing actors, which just came out a couple of weeks ago. So yeah, that's exciting. Where can people find the book, your other book, the film directors, intuition and more about you and what you do.

Judy Weston 1:11:14
Okay, I have a website, Judith Weston, calm. I have Facebook page, Judith Weston studio for actors and directors. And on there, you can find the links for the audio book. It's on Audible, of course, but it's also on a whole bunch of other places where you can get it maybe, you know, possibly cheaper, like libraries, you can get it through libraries. But one thing I want to mention about the audio book, is that directing actors was written, can you believe this? 23 years ago, it came out? Yes. So when I when I got this opportunity to do the audio book, I went back to reread it sort of thought, Well, I have to prepare to, you know, I want to read it, I want to be the reader. So I'm better, you know, read the thing again. And I found that there was a lot that I wanted to change. So I went and changed it. I said, You know, I said I'm going to do this. And they said okay, so it's it's quite, it's updated in a very, very significant way. Each each chapter is updated in a significant way. And so I, I, I'm very proud of it. I'm very, very happy with it. And and I hope people like it and find it useful. And yes.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:41
And well, first of all, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me and my tribe. And it's been wonderful talking to you. So thank you so much for taking the time. And I appreciate all the work that you do to help actors, work with actors work, the work you do for directors to work with actors better. So thank you so much.

Judy Weston 1:13:00
Thank you very much, Alex.

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BPS 262: How I Built a Billion-Dollar Directing Career with Raja Gosnell

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Alex Ferrari 2:23
I'd like to welcome the show Raja Gosnell. How are you doing Raja?

Raja Gosnell 4:11
I'm great. Good to be here. Alex,

Alex Ferrari 4:13
Thank you so much for coming on the show man. I am I am a fan of your work. Not only as a director sir but also as an editor when you first started out but we'll get into that in a minute. But I really do appreciate you. You coming on and talking shop with with the tribe today man,

Raja Gosnell 4:30
Love it man. Can't wait.

Alex Ferrari 4:32
Alright, so how how did you get into this ridiculous business?

Raja Gosnell 4:37
I was very lucky. I started as a driver at Robert Altman's Lionsgate films way, way back then I was shooting a movie called a wedding. And my job was to drive to the airport at three in the morning to to pick up the film that was coming in and take it to the lab. And I would spend the rest of my days in the car. room just doing, you know, whatever helping out the guys. And, you know, they taught me how to use the coding machine like, I think you never cut on film, but

Alex Ferrari 5:09
I cut on from I cannot film once, but this is

Raja Gosnell 5:12
The numbers on

Alex Ferrari 5:14
The bins.

Raja Gosnell 5:16
So, and I was fascinated watching the guys work and with that whole process and, and just sort of, you know, hung around as much as I could hang around in my extra time and they give me stuff to get ready made it to do. And I did it well. And so they hired me as a system editor back in back in the day. With the union, it had to be like that you had to be eight years before you could be an editor. There's all these different stages, kind of. But anyways, they hired me and, and throughout my course at that time with Altman, I worked from, you know, the driver to as first assistant editor on the movie, Popeye. So it was a really good run for me is great. You know, it's like super indie. They're like, something would come off the cam machine and Rajkot go out and mix it in. And I go out in the theater and thread up the machines and I had like a little mixing board. And so I there's very, very hands on and just a wonderful place to learn and great people, you know, tell you in Bartow and Dennis Hill were the editors. And Bob was sort of in and out larger than life. And

Alex Ferrari 6:21
I have to stop I have to stop you. How was it working with Robert?

Raja Gosnell 6:27
It was amazing. And wonderful is everything you think it was crazy? Yeah, he was just a larger than life. Figure. And, you know, we nicknamed the bear because because he just can't roll in. And, you know, he, we'd be working, he'd roll in like 10 o'clock at night and have a scotch in one hand and enjoy the other and, you know, just say, okay, we're going to start working. And then you know, you get these crazy notes. Like, let's take the beginning of the scene and put it at the end and putting it up. But you knew what he was talking about? You know what I mean? He wasn't that's what I learned. It wasn't like, specifically what someone's asking for. It's the idea of what someone's asking for. And it's the note behind the note. And it's just a fantastic learning experience. And he was a great great guy and treated treated his people really well. And yeah, I miss him.

Alex Ferrari 7:18
Yeah, I mean, I mean, I'm in a huge, I mean, Bob is Bob. I mean, he's, I mean, I mean the player, and we can go on and on and on. But he's, he was amazing. He was absolutely, and Popeye. So you actually, you worked with Robin, you know, in a sense with Robin Williams at the beginning of his filmmaking career. And then later on, he worked on Miss Doubtfire as an editor as well. So you're working as an assistant editor, and working your way up. And again, this is a different time. And if everyone listening like it's it was a whole different time, there was very much more of a apprentice like system in place where you would like Like you said, do your you eight years

Raja Gosnell 7:58
Yeah, the union requires a certain amount of years before you could advance to the next thing. It's like, it's like other unions, whether it's trying to protect the people that are there. And I think they've lost all that.

Alex Ferrari 8:09
Because now anybody anybody with a final cut system or resolves I'm an editor on editor now like it just and it you know, which is great and bad at the exact same. But so then you went from your first I think your first feature that you edited, was lonely guy, if I'm not mistaken, right? Or was it one of the first

Raja Gosnell 8:29
I was co editor on that. We edited it with we added to Bill Reynolds, who was amazing Oscar winning editor as his first assistant. And I think i think i think i got editing credit on that. I think the first like I sort of went off to the big movie world to do things. So there's something like soldier's revenge and and there was a one called Beverly Hills Air Force or whatever. And so some things like that, and

Alex Ferrari 8:59
80s all the 80s

Raja Gosnell 9:01
Yeah, exactly. Movies you've never heard over or probably will never see but but it was good learning grounds man, I was, you know, you're sort of on your own. And I'm working with very little in terms of like actual material, you had to sort of create scenes and stuff. So I was learning that ground. I sort of came back into the studio world. Again with with Bill Reynolds working on a movie called Making love Arthur Heller directed that and and we did a few movies with Arthur through that run. lonely guy was one of them. And author author was one of them without the Chino, and so it was it was a it was a very good run. And I learned a whole different set of skill sets from from Bill Reynolds. And that was just sort of the the politics of the editing room and analogies. And so yeah, it was a it was a fantastic playground that I grew up in and couldn't ask have asked for a better Just a better time.

Alex Ferrari 10:01
Yeah, I mean, and Arthur Hiller for people who don't know who he is, I mean, he was he's a legendary comedy director. I mean, he, I mean, he kind of broke Richard Pryor in with with Silver Streak and all of these other and he, I mean, you start looking at his filmography, it's like Jesus man, he's, he was a legend. He really really was a legend. And he did the biggest movie in 1970, which is love story. Yeah, like, that was like the Titanic of his day.

Raja Gosnell 10:29
I know, and you look back at that movie was so simple. And so simply done and it just hit a chord, it hit the Zeitgeist and the performances were great. And lightning in the bottle a man that's that's the film business he is, sometimes you just don't know what's going to be the thing. And I think that's one thing that attract people to the business in general is like, no, two days are the same. And you can make a great movie and fail miserably. And you can make a bad movie and succeed. And, you know, it's, it's, it's kind of it's kind of like go to Vegas.

Alex Ferrari 11:00
It's an insane, it's an insane. I mean, it's an insane, insane business. And you're right there is that kind of like chance, I think is that thing that draws that draws people in, it's like, it's the lottery ticket. It's like at any moment, I could just write that script, get that part direct that project, you know it or do something that will blow me up. But you and I both know, the chances of that happening is a lottery ticket. Like it happens once in a while. It's just the the the journeymen that kind of just keep hustling, keep working, coming in every day in and out that kind of build a career like yourself, like you were? You didn't you didn't like break out when you were 20? You you paid your dues?

Raja Gosnell 11:43
Hey, I don't think I was ready.

Alex Ferrari 11:45
I know, right? It's like no, I was definitely not ready. Any in any of my 20s honestly, my entire 20s I wasn't ready. Now, how did you connect with Chris Columbus?

Raja Gosnell 11:56
So I had worked on a miniseries called America spelt with a K. And it was, you know, the premise of it was the Russians, you know, slash Russian bloc had taken over the United States. And it was, you know, they didn't spend any time on like, how that actually happened. There was a you know, obviously, you know, it's actually sort of omniscient in a way because they, the story thing was they, they somehow got ahold of the communication systems and just convinced everybody that this was the new thing, which is wow, happening today.

Alex Ferrari 12:35
That's what Im about to say it's

Raja Gosnell 12:37
Really that that that is kind of could go down, you know, because it seemed it seemed preposterous at the time. The setup at least was, but the show itself was like how an ordinary American who grew up under an American system, we asked to living in a Soviet type system. And, and that was that was the premise of it. But that was a long way around the same at the post supervisor. His name was Dave McCann, on that, like me, and I was, you know, generally doing good work for that one. And so he moved to Disney to be the post supervisor there. And this movie came in this young director, Chris Columbus, had directed it. And they had just had a massive film on one sequence, and the regular editing crew just sort of didn't have time to jump on it. And sort of what I'd done on America was all the mass, you know, the big the big scenes. So he's like, I know a guy. So I came in, and like, basically the blues bar sequence in adventures in babysitting. Which was sort of a fun scene. Yeah. And it's sort of a, you know, sort of a tempo within that movie. And when Chris got his next gig, he called me up and said, hey, man wants to leave the movie. So I was like, Yes, thank you, sir. And yeah, we did a little movie called Heartbreak Hotel, which I was wanting to make. It was a disaster, you know, at the box office, and critically as well, I think, and I think Chris was thinking, Oh, there you know,

Alex Ferrari 14:08
That's it. I'm done!

Raja Gosnell 14:09
Ohio. Yeah, exactly, exactly. But then he got a little movie called Home Alone with john Hughes and went up to do that and asked me to do that. And so that was that sort of that was the E ticket ride for both of us. I think

Alex Ferrari 14:24
I remember I remember when heartbreak. heartbreak is heartbreak and a Heartbreak Hotel Heartbreak Hotel. Yeah, I remember what because I still remember that the the video the VHS box because I was working at a VA I was working at a video store. And I built the standee I built the standard for for our video store. I remember very carefully I remember watching it I enjoyed it when I watched it. But I remember it not being a huge hit. And I used to run

Raja Gosnell 14:50
One of these.

Alex Ferrari 14:52
It wasn't like a whole wall of them. There was probably like two or three I think we got at that point because they were still busy now I'm dating myself but it was I think like Still, like $99 or $79 to buy a VHS because it wasn't, it wasn't sell through at that point. Right. So and then you that and then you worked on that little film called Home Alone, which I mean, nobody knew. Right? Nobody knew that was gonna turn it.

Raja Gosnell 15:17
No, wait, no, nobody knew and we knew we're making a charming little Christmas movie with a with a great child actor and funny guys funny, you know, with Joe and Danny and and like the previews it previewed through the roof in terms of the snakes like people are falling out of seats laughing It's funny. And so but you know, we've done that before, like, great, you know, but didn't necessarily no one want to see it. But the studio got excited about it. And john Hughes at the height of his power during these days, we've had a lot of, he could pretty much use the 100 pound gorilla. I guess he got what he wanted. And, and like the final the final bit of fairy dust that came in was this, they asked Chris who he wants to compose. And he said, like john Williams and I. Okay, that's john Williams. And fortunately, john had done we did the Boston Pops with a lot of time, for a long time. And they always finish their Christmas things with these these big Christmas numbers and with the big choir and everything. And we attempt the movie home alone with Nutcracker suite and with you know, sort of all these sort of things that Boston Pops already playing. And john was like, I want to do a Christmas movie. And so it was just perfect happenstance that the most amazing composer ever decided to take our little movie and you know, when it went from a nine and a half to an 11 just his little magic touch across everything. Just elevated the movie and you know, we got a good release date. We think we're released against a rocky or Rambo, some some Stallone movie. And like, we're just number one,

Alex Ferrari 17:07
Okay, no Kindergarten Cop. I remember Kindergarten Cop was you guys were fighting Kindergarten Cop. And everyone was like, how is this little kid beating Arnold Schwarzenegger at that peak of his power?

Raja Gosnell 17:19
No, it was I think it was just repeat you and it's like someone will say you got to see this

Alex Ferrari 17:24
It grew it grew the second week. I remember it grew in box office the second week. So like if it made 20 million and made like 30 million the next week or something like

Raja Gosnell 17:33
Number one like in April was the movies or what but it was just, it was lightning in the bottle completely.

Alex Ferrari 17:42
But you but you were involved with a lot of lightning in a bottle because you got you know, home alone. And then you got to work with Gary Marshall with pretty woman, which also, you know, I know that I kind of know some of the story behind that the 3000 3000 bucks and that the original ending of that movie. And I think one of the producers was a teacher at my school, my film school. So I kind of heard a lot of the inside stuff of what happened before and before it was public knowledge. And you know, Gary, kind of he's another like he was a kid. He's like a Chris Columbus, he can come in and just very dust launder. And it just it just turned into this insane hit

Raja Gosnell 18:18
And the chemistry between Richard and Julia was just like, you know, Gary was really good at making that happen. But there was also an extra thing that no one could have predicted that that just happens between those two. Yeah, so I mean, it's basically a Cinderella story with a prostitute with his book bookending it with a guy you know, walking through the streets talking about you know, living your dreams? And yes, through like, let's just own that. It's a fairy tale. You know what I mean?

Alex Ferrari 18:47
So did you was that Gary? That was a Gary idea.

Raja Gosnell 18:50
That was Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 18:51
That was so like, you guys like you weren't hiding that this was just a fairy tale like this obviously will never happen in real life like this.

Raja Gosnell 18:58
Well, we didn't want to say like, yeah, obviously. He climbs and climbs a staircase at the end. And you know, there's a line about a prince and what he What did she do when he saved there? He says she saved them right back. You know, it was all it was. Yeah, it's just it's just a great movie. It holds up beautifully. And and yeah, I give it down to Gary and the chemistry between those two actors.

Alex Ferrari 19:27
And then and then again with Miss Doubtfire? Mrs. Doubtfire. Another. I mean, how, okay, I have to ask you because I've never spoken. I spoke to a lot of people who've worked with Robin, written with Robin. But I've never heard anyone that's edited Robin Williams. How do you edit Robin? Williams, because I'm assuming you don't have just one take you probably have 30 amazing takes per shot that you need. So how does that work?

Raja Gosnell 19:55
Actually, I was lucky enough to edit Robin twice. So the broadcast he Good Morning Vietnam. Oh, so yeah, that was great. That was another one of my little lucky breaks that we needed a big scene guy. Here's the scene.

Alex Ferrari 20:11
That's your niche. That was just that was your pocket like

Raja Gosnell 20:13
Sending sending Roger. So um, so yeah, the second time. I mean, good shooting silences like let's get let's get at least one or two scripted just so we have that in the bottle and then then Robin go and, and yeah, I would literally have 30 takes. You know, if you want to get a little technically into the weeds, it was the first movie I'd done electronically. And I was in a light work system light works. Oh, yeah, system. It was great. But like, you know, remember those big towers that every so

Alex Ferrari 20:47
And that was like 50 Meg's It was like, you would have like, a refrigerator. And it was like 100. Meg's

Raja Gosnell 20:55
Yeah, exactly. So light worth could manage three of those things at a time. And by the time we finished shooting, and we've shot the equivalent of a million feet of film, I had like 20 of those things spread out. So to run the movie, I have to go to the specialist and say plugin number five, but number three, number 12 over there, so I could run this see, you know, cuz. But yeah, just cutting that look. I mean, it was just an embarrassment of riches. And so I actually don't think I could have done it on film just to have access to all that stuff. And the hardest thing was the hardest thing was a lot of times like the best setup for a joke would be over here and take seven within like the best payoff and reaction will be over here and take 10 or 11. But he said this one in present tense and they deliver this one I asked him because he's just gone, you know. And so I'd have to go through like, you know, hours of film to find like the end to put the end of that word. So that's past and so just like little things that you'd never think of is sort of what went into sort of building all that but from from a 30,000 foot perspective. My job was just to get the best Robin into the movie and and I think for the most part we did I think it's a really it's got a lot of heart You know, Columbus, he's amazing. And Robin gave his all and Robin in the dress you know I I'm biomat pitch you know,

Alex Ferrari 22:27
It's not a hard sell like Robin Robin is an old an older British British woman

Raja Gosnell 22:36
That scene in the restaurant man I mean it read fondly

Alex Ferrari 22:38
on my god that is a beautifully edited scene

Raja Gosnell 22:40
By me but like when it came all together and we had the music in and and I kind of give Pierce Pierce Brosnan a ton of credit just being a straight man is is Rob is just going off and like every euphemism for for screwing that he throw at him. nobody's heard before I'm like, oh my god. Pierce is just like trying to keep it together trying to get rid of it as soon as crystal y'all can. It's like oh my god, you know? So? Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 23:08
It's it's essentially editing improv almost. It's like editing like an improv session because like you're saying one parts present tense here. There's like, the best ones here, but you can't edit it. And I've had that experience as well. Not at that extreme, of course, but it's not easy for people listening, editing, that kind of like if it's not on the script, specifically, and you're just kind of going off. It's not easy to cut that together. And I could only imagine Robin

Raja Gosnell 23:35
I mean, it couldn't have gone with that one but it wasn't as good like I was just determined to get the best of the best in there. And yeah, we didn't you know, we didn't take a lot out and we we I think it pretty you know honestly the movies he mentioned home alone and pretty woman and Mrs. Doubtfire they all pretty much worked from the beginning like the minor changes little bit of this but no like, Oh my God, we had to fix the whole second act or anything was happens in a lot of movies. We got to reshoot an ending which happens in a lot of movies. So I guess I guess the messages when they work, they work and those movies work right.

Alex Ferrari 24:11
So now you so you've, you're you know, one of the top editors in Hollywood at this point, your career is on fire. You're working on some of the biggest blockbusters you know, whether you knew they were blockbusters at the time or not you still the luck is amazing. From Home Alone to Pretty Woman. You know, those two are just we're out of the box. No one really knew what it was going to be. And there's many other films like that in your in your phone.

Raja Gosnell 24:36
No offense to the luck because it was lucky as hell. I mean.

Alex Ferrari 24:41
I mean, I mean,

Raja Gosnell 24:42
Other editors, and they're like, you really stepped into shit.

Alex Ferrari 24:46
A lot of times, I like looking at that, looking at your editing filmography you know, filmography just like Jesus, man, like he had a break. How did he just keep getting hit after hit after hit? It was it like obviously Miss Doubtfire was Kind of like in the back, like we knew it was gonna be a hit just because of what it was. But, but you kept doing that. So now you're the hottest editor in town, one of the hottest centers in town, your careers on fire, and you're like, you know what, I think I'm gonna, I'm gonna retire. I think it's just too much, I have had too much success. I need to, I need to

Raja Gosnell 25:20
Do fun. Like,

Alex Ferrari 25:21
I'm having too much fun. It's no one should be having this much fun. And I'm getting paid for what I love to do. And I'm working with the greatest artists in the field. I need to stop this. So you decide at that point to go, you know what I'm gonna do what everybody says they want to do. I'm gonna direct. So. So the question is, why did you want to direct? Is that something that was always in the back of your head? Because it was for me, like, I jumped into editing. But I always wanted to be a director editing was just a means to an end for me. Was that was that like it for you? Or did you just decide, you know what, I want to try this?

Raja Gosnell 25:58
It was never like a burning desire, you know. But as an editor, as you know, you see all the tapes come in, and you see, you know, you see the coverage and like, where's where's the closeup gonna be? Where's the know, there's a closet. Okay. So I mean, you know, how to cover a scene just from being an editor, you know, and, you know, so I figured I could probably manage that part, I guess, I guess, pulling back a little bit. Look, you commonly editors never win Oscars. And so I was definitely aware of that. And so every, every year, the editing Oscar would go to some action movie or something, which was amazingly well edited. But I knew where I was, I wasn't, you know, so the question for me was, Do I try and transition somehow into that world? Or do I do I try and direct you know, and, and that was, that was sort of like, in the back of my head, like, like, he was saying, nothing was uncomfortable. Life was life was pretty good. And then an interesting thing happened. And this is no one to blame, but But Mrs. Doubtfire won a Golden Globe and Chris's mom was sick, so he wasn't there. So the line producer, Mark Radcliffe, who I love. When I accept the award, he has a list and he like basically thanked everyone down to the caterer except me. And by watching that, and like, like, one of those moments, it's like, at that moment, I figured, okay, like, I'm not mad. I know, Mark, I love mark. I know, it wasn't intentional or anything. But it also told me, I'm just a comedy at it. You know, I that's so if I if I ever want to, you know, I don't know. It's just like, at that point, this the, the gong band a little bit louder, say, Okay, I'm gonna try this. So my wife and I were writing during all this time. And so South is crap. Yeah. But I actually talked to an agent about maybe representing me as a director. And he was like, yeah, yeah. Then I called the, the editing the below the line editing agent at that agency and said, Hey, you know, I may I may come over to your agency, you know, if they represent me in other areas, and the phone rang like five minutes later and said, Yeah, so. So basically, my editing my editing, saleability got me in the door, UTA. But then another lucky thing happened. This is a story of one lucky guy. Hughes decided to make home loan three, Chris was not going to do it. And so is the story of who we're going to get. And, you know, I told my agent, I saw this like little blurb in the trades. And I called my agent say, what does that mean? Is that I don't know, I'll call so john was like, yeah, I'll talk to Raj and I flew to Chicago and had the meeting and, and, you know, within three hours as I was on the plane back to LA and heard that I was directing Hold On three, so I was like, Okay, now I got to do this.

Alex Ferrari 29:12
And john Hughes is being your producer on this. Yes. So So how, what's that? Like? What's it like having the 800 pound gorilla as your boss, like, on that level, because it's one thing to be the 100 pound regular as the boss of the editor, but there's a lot of there's a lot of people between you and him. There's nothing between you two at this point.

Raja Gosnell 29:35
I should put it this way. He is a 800 pound gorilla to the studios like he was he was like the nuclear umbrella. So this, this magical umbrella fell over your production, and not no bullets from the outside were able to penetrate it. So that was that was that was John's version of exercising his 800 pound gorilla. You know, the fact that he stayed and he shot in Chicago. He never worked in LA Chicago and post him in Chicago, just to keep those guys away. You know, I mean, the only person allowed in was Jake Blum is his lawyer. And, and so yeah is actually great. You know, once john writes a script, like, that's what you're shooting, you know, there's no changes. So if I wanted to do something a little different, I'd shoot his version and shoot my version. And you know, I mean, so. So yeah, it was actually it actually went pretty well. on schedule on budget and blah, blah, blah, blah. And then the movie, the movie didn't do great. I can't sit back and say on three was as good as the first one, you know, because it's just not but it got me in the director's chair and got me going and and taught me to never been kissed, which is

Alex Ferrari 30:45
Drew Barrymore Yeah, I remember that movie. That was a cute, it was really cute. You know, comedy.

Raja Gosnell 30:51
That's the next one that comes back. Like it's, you know, you think you had this whole career and the people I love that, you know,

Alex Ferrari 30:57
Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, that's nice with the whole pretty woman in Hawaii, but never been kissed.

Raja Gosnell 31:04
It's a lot of movies. It is, it's a five year anniversary recently. And, you know, I did a couple interviews or whatever, but it's just, it's just one of those movies that is of the time and I have to, I have to give 90, I think of 100% of the credit to drew because she's just so vulnerable movie in the Chelsea grossie. And the writings great. And she, she and Nancy Jeevan produced it, and we've got a great cast together. So all great elements. But I mean, at the end of the day, when she's out there on the pitching mound, and the clock is ticking down. And she's in her little dress and her little tear forums, it's like, you know, come on.

Alex Ferrari 31:45
It's, it's drew at the height of her powers.

Raja Gosnell 31:48
Drew must be happy, you know, the audience was just dying for this movie to end. Like. Yeah, just so great cast great, great comedy all around. And, and super fun to do super fun for you.

Alex Ferrari 32:01
Now, what was the most difficult part of doing that transfer, that trans jumping from editing, to directing, because there's not a lot, there's a lot of post guys probably listening, who dream of walking down your path, or even just trying to get into the directing side, what was the most difficult part of that for you,

Raja Gosnell 32:21
Go there at the top. But like when editor, if you have an idea where it is I've got the sound, the music, the dialogue, like, here's my idea. And then when you're a director, it is obviously not nothing to cut, there's only words on a page. And so, you know, you meet with the studio people and you meet with department heads. And it's like, you have to learn to verbalize what's in your head, a visual concept that's in your head. And that was that was a learning curve for me. And, and then, you know, I feel like if I did pretty well at it, look, I've never been the smartest guy in the room. And I've accepted that. And I don't need to be the smartest guy in the room. But I'm a pretty damn good listener, I think this may be my superpower. So one studio had a studio had B, say completely the opposite things but think they're agreeing, then I think I know what to do with that and take the figure out what the real note is, and manage that and work on that. So that's, that's the difference in in an editing room is even the director and then maybe the producer near the end, the politics are very small. Whereas on in a movie in pre production, the politics are very big. And then on set, you know, the politics are big, too. So, so being able to describe your vision, whether it's to, you know, the head of the studio, who you want to hire you to this great actor or actress who you hope will agree to be on your movie down to you know, down to the, the set design to the director of photography, like like focusing on what their thing is and trying to try to put into words, you know, what, what, what you see and then also sort of letting go like, which tie would you like, sir? even wanna say department, you know, like, there's certain things certain things I really really trust to trust you guys to do. The best possible thing here because you're wonderful.

Alex Ferrari 34:34
Now and then you so never been kissed in home alone, obviously weren't huge monster hits at the time, even though they you know, never been kissed has definitely gained its popularity over the years. But your big first big hit was big, big momma's house. Big momma's house with Martin Lawrence that kind of was that he'd already done bad boys at that point. So he was already on his way up, but big momma's house really cemented him. Right

Raja Gosnell 34:59
We just done Blue streak was a really funny blue streak. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 35:05
Yeah, blue streak. I haven't met him yet. When he was the copy on Jason though.

Raja Gosnell 35:07
Yeah he just on that. And that movie came out as we were sort of talking about this. And so yeah, no, he was he was definitely a bankable star. And and yeah, Fox I was working for I had never been kissed for Fox, and also home alone. And so this is a fox movie. And they're like, what about Raj and so I met with Martin and met with the producer David friendly, and it seemed like, it seemed like a good match. And it got to do that. So that was, that was great. They biggest the biggest trick on that is that, you know, Martin could only take it all that not survive, but but you know, be functional for a few hours a day. So just the logistics of, you know, in the pressure. So from a production standpoint, maybe like, here's a master here's Martin's close up new set, here's a master here's Martin suppose up new set, you know, then after Martin was done, we sort of come back to the original thing. And, you know, she she covered so it was hard like to resist. It was just a different way of planning a heating day. And so making sure I didn't miss something. And so I was a little on edge the whole time. Like, I hope I don't need Martin for this next, couples ads or whatever. So but always great. Martin was great. And he gave it all into that big mama roll. me along. Fantastic. Terrence Howard was a sort of a great bad guy. We had fun me, just, you know, fun music and, and him doing that big church scene was sort of brought down when he was up there singing and dance. And that's, that was just like an idea like, Oh, yeah, Big Mama should testify then. You know, so Don Rhymer the late Don Rhymer wrote that and just wrote an amazing, something about the, in the back of it. El Camino, you know, it was perfect. And then Martin delivered it. And then music started, he started dancing, and we were all rolling cameras. And it was just like, you know, thought like, like that. So it was, it was really a fun. It's just a fun movie to do. And like, we originally have a release date. We're shooting the spring. We recently added recently state like in October or something. And then Tom sherek, who was the head of distribution at the time for Fox came to me and said, Look, there's this nutty professor to is coming out in July. We'd like to get out ahead of them. What do you think? I said, Yeah, if it's better for the movie, we'll do it. And so basically, long story short, we wrapped the movie had a had a we were on the mixing stage in two weeks and had to answer cramped, like four weeks later, I thought we were Wow, for this feature post ever. And unfortunately, worked, you know.

Alex Ferrari 37:51
Yeah. And did it. Yeah, it was a huge worldwide hit. And then and then you got into the next phase of your career that I see is the CG character phase where you better world Yeah, as the as the CG critter world where you you? Obviously, you know, you took you took on Scooby Doo, which was and this is 2002 from I'm mistaken, around there. Right.

Raja Gosnell 38:17
It's 2000 Yeah, I think 2000 and then the first one came out in 2001. And 2003. Yeah. 2000 2004 Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 38:26
So it's around. It's around there. And yeah. And, you know, to be fair, you know, CG was, you know, we done team, we've already done the T Rex, you know, but you were kind of on the cutting edge, because there wasn't a lot of if I am please correct me if I'm wrong, there wasn't a lot of animated CG characters who were just like, full blown characters who are going to be interacting with live action and talking like, I don't remember a lot of other movies around that time that were doing that. So it was kind of on the edge of technology. Am I wrong on that? Or was there other films in that

Raja Gosnell 38:59
It wasn't just in terms of the amount of screen?

Alex Ferrari 39:02
Yeah, yeah, huge amount

Raja Gosnell 39:04
The amount of interaction like shaggy Scott a whole Scooby, I, we work that out. You know, we got a break through windows or whatever. So so there was a lot of sort of brain work, I had a really good visual effects crew. And then, you know, we also had to figure out because a lot of times the visual effects people will say, yeah, we can do that for you know, but it's gonna cost you know, $20 million. So, you know, that's not gonna happen. So how are we gonna do for that? $20 million? Yeah. So you have to sort of reverse engineer things a lot of times and that's just the process. But you know, we all we all want it to be good. And within us, I think was our Yeah, was our visual effects house. Yeah, they were they were sort of famous for for creators, and I got to give a lot of credit to Matt Lillard cuz like, you know, just be them walk, you know, the guy walking into a scene and he sort of mind this sort of thing bumping his leg, you You know, I like it when you walk with a dog, you know, comes in and he just everything he did when Scooby wasn't there. He just had a sense that he was there when Matthew was just sort of aware of, of the Scooby of it also. Yeah, and James Gunn wrote wrote a great, crazy script and you know, we got Rowan Atkinson to be our great, crazy spooky Island guy. And so, yeah, it was it was it was a lot of fun and a lot of, you know, a lot of r&d on the dog. Like, every time some new movie comes out. There's always some outrage about the character. You know, it was about Sue's about Scooby It was about you know, it was about blue Aladdin. Someone gave me a call about the when when Will Smith was going to be the blue Aladdin?

Alex Ferrari 40:49
It was. To be fair, the blue Aladdin and and the sonic was kind of terrifying at the first the first way to fix it up. Sonic was terrifying. I'm sorry.

Raja Gosnell 40:59
Sonic Sonic was like a woodland creature.

Alex Ferrari 41:03
What's so terrifying I was like what is that?

Raja Gosnell 41:07
There was all this Sturm and Drang around the movie. And another thing that was weird around that movie is it was sort of a bird of the dawn of the internet. And what drudge report was to politics, ain't it cool news was to the film business and everybody read this the site and and without the frame shot, like the hairy nose is like, fucking hated me. And I can hate a James Gunn and hated the script. And so like, we'd be in pre production working along and it'd be like, it was another post. Was it say? Yeah, so it was weird, like working under that kind of scenario where this outside provoca tour, I guess, is is like causing all this anger, not just not just targeting because it's targeting you. But also in the industry like, like it is set a whole thing because it was so powerful at that time. So that was was the only weird thing working under that kind of thing, where we were under constant attack for when we hadn't even shot a film, or even had a face script. So that's what I know the Marvel people deal with all the time now it's become sort of a more normal thing where everybody hates everything until it's done. So and I can't imagine what the Star Wars people go through my God. Like,you better not do this.

Alex Ferrari 42:32
No, it's it's brutal. And for people that didn't, didn't weren't around at that time a nickel news, because they reviewed a couple of my films, and they were very pleasant than cowhide. But at the time, I mean, they they basically single handedly destroyed Batman and Robin, like that, that that last date, they they destroyed it before it ever came out and never and never got off the ground. Not that it's a particularly great, you know, installment of the Batman franchise, but they destroyed it. And you weren't that far off from that time period. It was like I think it was 97 when Batman rump so they were still at the height of their power. So I can only imagine. All they heard was like Scooby Doo live action. Who the hell is this guy? Screw it, and then they just went after you. And he definitely was a provocateur. I agree with you. 100% now, I mean, you know, you and James Gunn and a couple other they've done okay. And and and how many people are talking about including us anymore?

Raja Gosnell 43:29
In fact, interesting. I haven't talked to James about this. So this is going to be a complete speculation. But the tweets that James got in trouble for last year, whatever. Yeah, when I when I read those, I was like, this is a cool language, like would hearing those say, Yeah, I just done some kids had, it was so good. Like, that was just the language of that time, and the language of that site. And so he and I both, you know, took a lot of punishment from that site. And my instinct was just like, I'm never gonna turn on the internet again. No, socials. But he is a much smarter person than I am. And he like engaged and, and started a Facebook and he completely got immersed in that world. And so it was no surprise to me to see those and, but of course, in our in, in the time, that it came out, like, context was lost. And so, you know, it's a little a little sad note to the cool story.

Alex Ferrari 44:31
I mean, it's ridiculous. I mean, like, Look, if we all start pulling things back from when we were high in high school and things that we did when we were in our 20s like, I'm so glad there was no social media when I was a teenager or in the 20s I can only imagine like, we just would be insane. So I agree with you. It's like look at the reference point. You know, it's it is what it is. Now, I've been dying to ask you this because you've done you know, between the Scooby doos, the Smurfs, which you also did. You know, what kind of pressure is there? And can we kind of touched upon it right now? But what kind of pressure? Is it on you to be directing such a large IP? And how do you balance distal loyalty to the story you're trying to tell? versus, you know, making the fans happy making the the people who follow these characters for 3040 5060 years, whatever the, the length of time they've been around? How do you balance that because you didn't do it just with one icon you did it with to the Smurfs and Scooby Doo. So how do you how do you balance that? We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Raja Gosnell 45:44
The answer is we do our best, you know, we do our best to honor the original source material, but provide something new, because why else would you be making a movie if there's, if you just don't tell the same stories. And honestly, you know, it's a, it's a whole team, when there's when there's IP at this level, there's producers, their studios, they're writing 100 million dollar checks, I mean, everyone, that's all eyes on this, and everyone has notes and so. So it's really, it becomes a committee, which is, you know, can be a good thing or a bad thing. But, but, but just there was a lot of eyes and a lot of really smart people working on both of those movies. So, but in terms of like, like my job, as a director, I sort of try and protect the story as much as I can and protect the characters within that story. And, and be as true to make the best version of the script that I was hired to shoot, you know, I mean, and that's, that's when we can go into it. I mean, you know, making a movie is there's this sort of global, like, this is the this is these are the tracks, we're on a wrist down these tracks. And these are, these are the borders that we can't go outside of, and there's all that, you know, from the 30,000 feet, but on the day to day, you got two cameras, you got this, you got this, you got the techno crane, you got this, you know, just like I want to get this shot where, you know, Neil Patrick Harris is running in the summer of this, this and everything else. So, so once the cameras are rolling, you totally flipped from from what you're talking about, which is how do you how do you honor the IP, and it's more into just like executing the day to day have a really, really complicated UI. And then when you get and post now you're back? You bet you were in the first tab again. And, and in a sense, you know, I've had a lot of movies that sort of got beat up in post by by having sneak previews and stuff Scooby is sort of a pretty famous example of it. I'm sure you're aware of that story? Yeah. Which one? Do you already Scooby Doo story?

Alex Ferrari 47:59
No, I don't I don't know that story.

Raja Gosnell 48:00
Oh, my God. Okay. So the first Scooby, the James wrote and that the studio agreement, by the way was, was to the Scooby cartoon what Austin Powers was to James Bond, very self referential, very naughty, I guess very, sort of a lot of winks at the the audience who grew up with it, who always wondered what's shiny, like,

Alex Ferrari 48:26
He was always high. He was always there are images. I've seen them in the cartoon where they were in parkfields. There was pot fields in the background, it was something that everybody knew there was smoke in the in the Mystery Machine. We knew what's new Scooby Snacks were Come on, guys. I mean,

Raja Gosnell 48:45
Was dama maybe gay? I don't know.

Alex Ferrari 48:48
There's a whole bunch of that. Yeah.

Raja Gosnell 48:49
So this this is all in the movie.

Alex Ferrari 48:54
In a kid's movie, in a kid's movie.

Raja Gosnell 48:56
Well, now there's way that hang on. That's the distinction. See, right. Um, we didn't necessarily go out thinking we're making a kid's movie, we went out thinking we're making Austin Powers ish, you know, the Scooby of Austin Powers. But then, you know, after we shot this, this movie, and we're in post production, there was some marketing survey done. And, you know, the marketing came back where, who was who's the core audience for this movie. And it turned out to be, you know, surprise parents and their kids, because that's what, that's what the previous IP was. And so So, they sent us to sneak the movie like in a really conservative part of the country, with kids, parents and their, you know, three to four year olds, and of course, we got killed, you know, we were basically sent there to get killed, right. And then so we had to cut the movie down and, you know, so basically, the head of the studio at the time says, you know, until that plays great for this core audience, like Not going to support anything that you guys are doing the bad over there. So anyways, that's the story of the of the, of the unreleased Scooby movie. We didn't set out to make our, by the way, we're not stupid, it was gonna be like 13. But, but it actually did go to the ratings board and they gave it to our because they misunderstood one word, which was the little we have this little Voodoo character, and he said the our new keybies. To me, it's something very much dirtier than that.

Alex Ferrari 50:28
So so it was with the Schneider cut that just has been done. Is there going to be a Roger cut of Scooby Doo one day, like, are you gonna ever gonna allow to release the R rated version of Scooby Doo

Raja Gosnell 50:38
Actually, but unfortunately, Scooby Doo is still a big IP there. And it's still, you know, for that, that age group, so I don't think it's ever gonna see the light of day. But, but it would have been fun, though. I'm also really glad because because you can watch it with your kids. And a lot of people grew up with it, and they come to me now. And, you know, they may or may not have seen it. If if we're done with the first version. So, you know, maybe, maybe, maybe that was the right thing to do at the end of the day.

Alex Ferrari 51:11
So at least after doing all these CG critters now, I have to ask you, how do you direct them? How do you direct actors interacting with you know, critters, like, you know, I've, you know, I've worked on visual effects shows that, you know, yeah, there's a, there's a monster over here, or the backgrounds gonna change there. But like, you're literally having dialogue with a smurf or with a dog, like how do you direct that and how, technically Do you go into that?

Raja Gosnell 51:35
It's mostly hard on the actors themselves, cuz for instance, well with Scooby So okay, so we go so here's the scene, I blocked it in my head and I have it all written down what's going to happen and so when we go to rehearse, we've got you know, we've got a guy with a full size Scooby sort of walk on besides and Scooby is gonna land here, he's gonna look up at Matt, he's gonna do this he's gonna do that he's gonna wander off over here. So you basically block it with a with a cat with a full size thing. And then it was up to a mat and maybe it looks like a green mark on the floor where the look dusty would be those those sorts of tricks. But in terms of like all that interaction, this is Matt sort of just being a great mime and just making like feeling the way to Scooby and all that hard stuff is it all falls to the Acura at that point. Same with Neil Patrick Harris, there was one of one of the favorite scenes in Smurfs was they're all in his office, and they're messing with his things and there's smirks everywhere. And there's this one's got dialogue, and that one's about violent and that one's got dialogue. And then we have voice characters on set. They're just basically firing these lines at them. And we have a little little puppeteers, who like, if the Smurfs going to touch the light, we will puppeteer like 10 of the light at a certain time. And so that's all the fun behind the scenes stuff, because you got to move stuff in, in the real world to interact with the characters. So we're always like little moving little things around themselves. So my directing is okay, Neil, there's going to be a smurf here is going to go here, he's going to climb up this lamp, who can I turn and say hi, and he's gonna do something. And in the meantime, this summer, it's gonna be talking, that's where it's going to be talking. And so the scene comes out great, but you can see like, halfway through, we're gonna be like, completely loses his looks. And he Cisco's, like, that's funny, because he's like, overwhelmed by all these words. So it kind of it kind of comes down to so we rehearse it with these little Smurfs. And we do the voices and where they're gonna go and where they're gonna be in. And then put it put a few key islands for the actors, but then that assistant vanishes off and go and then, you know, stop animation.

Alex Ferrari 53:50
And so not only do you work with CG characters, but you also do two things that every everybody says never to direct, which is children and animals. And you've done a few movies with children and animals. So and then not only animals, but animals that will have some sort of CG element attached them because they're talking animals right

Raja Gosnell 54:10
Coffee. Nah, that's

Alex Ferrari 54:13
That's like it like and this is so funny. This is Hollywood, man. It is so funny, because because you did Beverly Hills Chihuahua, right? Which was what I was like, wasn't a big project. It was like a smaller a smaller project that wasn't expected to do big business, right? If I'm if I'm not mistaken, right.

Raja Gosnell 54:29
Yeah, it was. We hoped we hoped they would do well. But we didn't have like a big all star cast.

Alex Ferrari 54:35
Right, right. Exactly. And then, you know, you've got these dogs and you've got the CG elements involved. Like how like, the first time I saw that was baby and I saw babe and I'm like, oh, and babies, you know, babies babies. One of the that's amazing little film.

Raja Gosnell 54:53
Picked it all up

Alex Ferrari 54:55
Dave is the one that started this whole this whole up I was gonna say like Hollywood such a weird place. Because now because you did Beverly Hills, Chihuahuas, like, oh, Rogers, the talking dog guy, like if you if you're gonna make a talky dog movie, it's Roger, because you've done it once, and they did it successfully once, and now you're the dude, it's just the way Hollywood works.

Raja Gosnell 55:13
And certain scripts in my inbox was just don't make it to me for some reason, I don't know why. So, I mean, the process is the same, I guess, in that, well, the process is different in that, basically, I'm directing Ansel and directing the dogs, you know, mass movements, and the dog's face in the sense where the dog loves and how the dog stands. But he has basic things if the dog supposed to be happy and peppy, then it wags his tail and stuff like this, if it's supposed to be sad, or, or whatever, it's kind of droopy and, and then getting them to sort of, you know, do eyelines with each other. This is great, sort of, it's great working with the trainer team, because they're all off camera going, you know, x x x, we're going to look over here, and then, you know, sometimes like I have a character Delgado and Beverly Hills to our, and he was hiding a secret. So I decided that most of his lines, I actually have not looking at Chloe when he said them, so I could we just kind of let let him be a dog for a minute. And the dog would sort of look over here, and then let's go to look over there. And then we sort of bring them back in. And then we let him look over here. So but going on dialogue, it's like, yeah, yeah, you know, back when I was a cop, you know, we would talk about those kinds of things. So So just like having having in your head like, wow, with it was a person, what would the attitude be how I planned out to a dog in terms of that to just to get that attitude? So that's, that's the trick. And I'm sure no one in your audience is ever going to want to direct the talking dog.

Alex Ferrari 57:02
Oh, no, you'd be surprised like I had on the show. I'm the creator of Air Bud. Right. And and he's he's

Raja Gosnell 57:09
He's made an entire industry of that, like

Alex Ferrari 57:13
He was he was a screenwriter, he created it and he think he was involved with the first two or three and now he just collects a check every single time they put out a new Air Bud movie. But you know, it's just a you explaining it i'd like I've never sat down because I've never direct ever had direct children a bunch, but directing. I think I animals like I kind of just let them go. I never thought of them as like, because you're talking talks. It's not like just dogs. It's just like talking dogs. So you have to think about some characters. You got it. You got to think about how you're going to direct them and how you're going to move and how the eyeline is going to work and and do you make your days? I mean, is that is that like, oh, always make your days with anime like that muscle?

Raja Gosnell 57:53
American overscheduling any movie I've ever done?

Alex Ferrari 57:55
That's amazing. That's amazing.

Raja Gosnell 57:59
Shot I wanted but

Alex Ferrari 58:02
Yes, famous words of every director. I made the day but I didn't get we never look. Is there ever been a day that you walked on set and gun? Every single shot on your shot list?

Raja Gosnell 58:11
Yeah, but then something must have been wrong.

Alex Ferrari 58:14
It's an alternate universe. At that point

Raja Gosnell 58:16
I shot to

Alex Ferrari 58:19
I gave my shot to the first ad. The first ad is like, this is not it's very ambitious, Alex. It's very ambitious. I'm like, I know 50% of it's gone. But it's there. Just in case.

Raja Gosnell 58:32
You can get lucky.

Alex Ferrari 58:34
Right, exactly. I mean, it's I know, it's 12 hours, and it's only in the same 12 hours for everybody on the planet. But for us, it's really going to time we'll stop and we're going to get an extra five hours.

Raja Gosnell 58:45
It's the same lighting setup.

Alex Ferrari 58:49
We don't have to move the camera.

Raja Gosnell 58:51
He's like, No, it's not.

Alex Ferrari 58:54
We'll just shoot a wide and 8k and just punch in. It'll be fine. We'll shoot just one wider we'll punch in. It'll be great at the peace. Love that. Now, now tell me about your new film, gun and hotel which has no talking dogs has no CG critters, or giant dog or Smurfs? So tell me it gets a little bit outside of your wheelhouse. I'm curious.

Raja Gosnell 59:25
So it's it's a drama. I guess it's a drama that involves faith. And the logline is that a young man walks into a hotel room contemplating an act of violence and he encounters a personified hotel Bible. And the Bible basically spends the next hour trying to talk him out of doing this act of violence. And it started as an award winning play. And we went to see the play and it was just, you know, great writing great acting. But what really struck me was on the sidewalk afterwards, like people just are not in this movie, they have these passionate conversations about this movie and, and it just really touches people and it touches people. Like if you come from a church background like this, there's a voice for you, if you come from a completely never going to church your entire life, there's a voice for you. It's extremely well balanced and extremely well executed. discussion about morality, and, and scripture, and, you know, just just all things, all things heavy like that. But it's also it's got a lot of them on humor and activity, these characters, they sort of they debate, but they also bond. And it's just an incredibly sort of emotional journey, that these characters go on together for their one hour together until the clock ticks down.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:01
That's amazing. Is it out already? Or is it it's been released on

Raja Gosnell 1:01:05
January 5, it's on all the streaming sites, iTunes, Amazon, all the normal places. So

Alex Ferrari 1:01:12
And I will put a link to that in the show notes. I advise everyone to take a look at it because it sounds extremely interesting. It sounds like actually really,

Raja Gosnell 1:01:19
You know, it feels like a play on film, in a way, but I think in a good way. I think part of the part of the dramatic appeal of basically takes place in one room, but this character can't get out like he can't leave. And he keeps being confronted by this by this bootstrap personified Bible. So I think the claustrophobic nature of it actually lends to the, the dramatic nature of it as well. And yeah, well, I'm feeling really excited about it. And, you know, hoping someone, some people see it, we've been really interesting, we've gotten really good response from on the secular side, but also on the, on the faith side. So it's I don't know, for movies ever, like sort of crossed over like that, right? Um, but there's this little voice for our characters, and they know strawman arguments. So if you feel like sort of, you know, snuggling up on a cold winter's night and getting into some deep philosophical and scriptural discussions, and then this is a movie.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:24
Absolutely. And God knows we're not doing a whole heck of a lot nowadays. We're pretty much staying at home and watching stuff. So I think that might be a good a good movie to watch. Now, what are you working on next? And what's the next few you're coming up with?

Raja Gosnell 1:02:37
Developing developing, I didn't have anything that's been sort of COVID shut down, because I've been developing stuff. And it's, it's more along the lines of what you think it's it's a, you know, talking creators and this is sort of more in the family, the family film zone that you would expect me to be working in and in SAS, so we'll see nothing I can talk about specifically right now, but hopefully a couple pieces IP that we'd like to get going. And once, once COVID lifts, we hope to be making movies.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:10
We're all hoping that COVID lifts and we can start making movies. I mean, it's in and as of this recording, we live in LA which is ground zero at this point in the game. It's It's It's It's really rough out here. It's really scary. And I'm just hoping that 2021 just starts we see some sort of light at the end of this tunnel for a lot of unperfect

Raja Gosnell 1:03:32
Man, I think I think I think theaters are going to come back for people dying to get out.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:37
I would love to go see the theater again.

Raja Gosnell 1:03:39
Just Just go on a date. That's like the simplest date just to go to the movies. So so hopefully the vaccine will kick in soon enough. And you know that all the gloom and doom we've been hearing about the industry will will sort of you know, evaporated and live streaming is always gonna be streaming it's always gonna it's gonna keep getting more and more but but I have a strong feeling that the theaters are going to survive and we're back to those big screen experiences.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:07
Absolutely. My wife the other day just said like we saw a commercial for a restaurant we're like oh, what restaurant Oh, like she's like, I just want to go eat somewhere I just want to go remember the days where we could just go eat we're not asking a lot like just to go sit down in closed in a room with other people close by just eat a good meal have some conversation. it's it's it's it's a it's a weird and wacky we do it. We are living in an alternative universe I feel without question. Now I'm gonna actually last few questions asked all my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Raja Gosnell 1:04:50
Man, just just make films do what you're doing. Like make stuff. Reach out to Vegas, you know, whatever. Whatever. The next person up on the run that you know or you have connections to agents like this movie, you know, this movie we got hooked up I want to talk about we did like the film festival circuit made enough noise to get a distributor and, and all that stuff so this is a movie that was shot in four days of in tears and one day of exterior and we managed to get distribution so it can happen and it happens by by making doing doing your craft and doing good stuff you know, and you don't you know, you don't have to necessarily like he could start as an editor like human I did you know you don't have to start as I don't want to be the executive producer and I want to direct the thing that I've written you know, start as an assistant start somewhere that you can work laterally into what you want to do more but there's learning steps along the way and man there's just so much content being made now and then like you said, Alex, like people can make movies in their garages you know what I mean? So so you know obviously getting those movies view harder in this in this days when there's a billion things on tik tok and on YouTube to compete with so that's the tricky part but but you're learning skills along the way even if someone doesn't see your short film, you've produced a movie and you've you know, you've shot a movie you've edited a movie so so yeah, just just keep doing and keep reaching out and and if if something comes up where you can get a foot in the door even like I never pictured myself as an editor you know, that's kind of just so you can get your foot in the door somewhere and and you know, if you don't love that and try and move laterally to the direction you want to move if you're on a film set as a as a as a boom guy, but you really want to be a camera operator to hang out the camera guys you know, you learn learn a thing or two so I think I guess that's I guess that's the way to do it. I'll have my wish I had a magic wand but I know

Alex Ferrari 1:07:09
And would you be fair to say that your success as a director is wholly in part from all of the years you worked in post because I think that you and please correct me if I'm wrong and this is just my looking in you got a job like a Scooby or or you know obviously Smurfs, but Scooby specifically because like okay, we need a director who knows comedy but also understands post and understands that whole work cuz there's directors I'm sure you know, who don't even understand anything about post production because I've had him in my edit suite. So you learning all these tools prepped you and got you good able to give you these opportunities that you might have not been able to do as opposed to you trying to just you know, jump into like you said the executive producer like you want to get to the top right away and like know, if you you chop wood carry water, chop wood carry water? Is that Is that a fair statement?

Raja Gosnell 1:08:01
I think that is that's definitely first statement and I think that I probably was hired Scooby, you know, based on around he must know something about

Alex Ferrari 1:08:09
Its perception is perception.

Raja Gosnell 1:08:12
Perception Exactly. I think that's less prevalent now. Just because, like like Marvel is this machine, you know? So like, Director Come on. It's like here's the entire storyboard department you want to you want a big fight. Let him go you know, I'm not in Marvel. So I'm projecting a little bit but but I think that but I think that it's maybe a little easier now for non technical people to sit in that chair because there's enough technical support

Alex Ferrari 1:08:47
But at the highest level though, not at the indie level at the entry level you still got you got to know

Raja Gosnell 1:08:51
Some stuff itself man you got there. So yeah, so I think like like you saying, I think each chapter would carry the water learning the craft really. And, and yeah, if you can get your foot in somewhere then in grab that man and go and try and move laterally on to the next thing.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:10
Now what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Raja Gosnell 1:09:15
Oh, that is a very good question. Wow, let's see you hit me up. I want to say I don't think I've learned the hardest lessons yet. Well, okay, let's let's bring it back to the film business here. So I guess I guess when the talk I wanted to shut up.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:40
Amen. Preach brother preach.

Raja Gosnell 1:09:43
You walk into the room is the director and like, everyone looks at you and you know, you have to talk you know, I mean, but sometimes like you want to, sometimes there's other times when you should just actually listen better and so I still don't I've never been perfect. We have ever been comfortable socially and I don't think I have social anxieties but I'm not great in a group like one on one. I'm pretty good, like a group of 10 like not so good, you know, around a board table with a bunch of executives.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:16
But again, you've done okay, you've done okay,

Raja Gosnell 1:10:19
I limped through but But anyways, I guess, I guess. I guess the lesson I learned is sometimes those things that you really really don't want to do, you got to suck them up and do them to get to where you want to go. So as much as I dread going to into that boardroom with a bunch of exacts and doing a dog and pony show, I got to do and as much as I dread going to those the sneak previews where I know the cars are going to come in and people are gonna start wanting to rip apart my movie. You got to do it. You got to you got to do your job and all that and, and do as best you can do this honestly, honestly as you can and do it from the heart.

Alex Ferrari 1:11:04
And last question, three of your favorite films of all time.

Raja Gosnell 1:11:08
Oh my god. This one? Well I'm gonna say it's a wonderful life as we watch it every year. I know we're gonna say Guardians of the Galaxy the James was great. I love that. Honestly, like first men and black you know, I mean, that was just those both of those movies. I got a wonderful life just because it's it makes me cry every year. I make a Forrest Gump even. I'm all over the place.

Alex Ferrari 1:11:48
All good choices are good choices.

Raja Gosnell 1:11:51
Let's see. Yeah, man, I just I could I could rewatch I can rewatch that first pirates any any day. Oh, we love that. I mean, what gore did in that movie and what James did in guardians of a Barry sonnenfeld did in in men and black like, like, I wish I could do that. Let's just this nails on. The tone was perfect. The movie was a fun ride. And I guess I'm giving you a category of my favorite movie.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:18
It's completely fine. It's a completely acceptable answer, sir. And those films have and those films have hit the list here on the indie film hustle podcast a couple times. So no, no question. good choices. Roger, man, thank you so much for being on the show. It was an absolute pleasure talking to you and and going down your history in your in your filmography and an amazing career that you've had. And very lucky as you as you as declared a very you've stepped into it, sir. you've stepped into it a couple times. But it's been an absolute pleasure and I wish you nothing but the best in the future. My friend. Thank you so much.

Raja Gosnell 1:12:54
I'd love to get together and talk more stories offline and get get the real the real dirty deeds.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:01
Pleasure, my friend talk to you soon.

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BPS 259: How To Raise Money For Your Film In TODAY’S CRAZY World With Franco Sama

We have on the show returning champion film finance expert Franco Sama. His first episode is one of the most downloaded episodes in the history of the show (Listen to that episode here). Franco and I joke that his last episode turned him into a celebrity at film markets and festivals around the world. I mean, he can barely walk the halls of AFM without getting recognized.

Franco is a wealth of knowledge in the film finance space, and I have learned tons from him over the years. We discuss the effect the Coronavirus is and will have on not only raising money for a film but also selling that movie to an ever-changing marketplace. Nobody knows what will happen to the industry after this virus passes. We also discuss which studios are more vulnerable than others and the dos and don’ts when raising money for an indie film in today’s marketplace.

Here’s a bit about today’s guest.

Independent feature film producer Franco Sama boasts a remarkable and extensive history in public speaking and public relations and nearly two decades of independent film development, production and financing experience.

Sama has Executive Produced and/or produced an impressive array of over twenty (20) successful independent feature films, including most notably, “Guns, Girls and Gambling” starring Gary Oldman, Christian Slater, and Dane Cook, which is now a cult favorite; this film was released into theatres and acquired a worldwide distribution deal from Universal Pictures.

Other films Sama has produced include; “Black Limousine” starring David Arquette and Vivica Fox, “Tooth and Nail” starring Michael Madsen and Vinnie Jones, and “Paid” starring Corbin Bernsen and Tom Conti.  Sama also serves as Executive Producer on the film festival darling “Petunia,” starring Thora Birch, Brittany Snow, and Academy Award winner Christine Lahti.

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Alex Ferrari 3:21
I'd like to welcome back to the show returning champion, Franco Sama. How are you doing, sir?

Franco Sama 5:40
I'm doing great, Alex, How about yourself?

Alex Ferrari 5:42
Um, you know, it's it's it's a weird time. The world is an interesting time in the world right now. We're all locked up here. A self quarantining ourselves. Here, it's it's a weird time, we're gonna talk a little bit about the weird time as well. But you were just talking off air. And it's been last time you were on the show was episode. I don't forget what episode it was. But it was 2017.

Franco Sama 6:06
Right.

Alex Ferrari 6:07
And it was one of the more popular episodes we've ever done. And I know you and I have joked over the course of the last two years that you are now a celebrity at a AFM, film markets and film festivals. People walk up to you and say, Are you the guy from indie film hustle podcast?

Franco Sama 6:27
And they still do. It happened two weeks ago.

Alex Ferrari 6:31
It is it is it's a new always, like I say you always give the best stories because it's never just like a guy just randomly meeting you. Like, there's always a situation, whether it's the place, or whether it's the people involved in there's always a character involved.

Franco Sama 6:49
And I gotta tell you, it really makes my life interesting. Because other than that, my life isn't that interesting. But it's so cool. Because it's so unexpected for me, you know, I've never had that my whole life like, people, you know, I've always people have known me sort of on my work. Sure. But they never known the face behind it, you know, they just know the the name or the or the company or something. But for somebody to literally walk up to me either out of market or in just the general public population and recognize me and know not only recognize me, these guys can actually quote me, like, they know some of my catchphrases, and, and it's freaky. It's almost like, I feels a little stalker, you know, it's like, how do you know so much about me? But I'm very flattered every time it happens, I really haven't. I'm very grateful that that it will, first of all, what I'm really happy about is that they are hearing the message, you know, and that they're able that they're receiving the message, because that's why I do this right? Well, isn't that why any of us do this is we you know, you to go out into the world and speak on these types of issues around our business and our industry and financing. And the whole point is to educate people to help them not make these gigantic mistakes that could potentially end their careers before they even have one to begin with. And I and I get that guy number one. And I was lucky to get out of it. And I've seen it so many times. So when I hear that, and I know that people are listening to you, and they're listening to me, and they are hearing what we have to say, and that they're actually taking that information seriously and implementing it into their into their work and into their lives. It's there's no greater compliment for me.

Alex Ferrari 8:35
You are by far the most recognizable film finance guy in LA, there's no question about it. They can't hear you. You can't even walk AFM without being being attacked three, four or five times every second

Franco Sama 8:47
At one point, it all happened at one at one time. And I'm telling you, the people that I was hanging out with, for sure, were convinced that I was wandering around handing out hundreds and colonies people to come up for 10 gig and because it was so it was so weird. It was very, very, that was a little uncomfortable. Because it literally happened like with four different people within a span of about an hour. And that was just a coincidence. But it was that was when I really opened my eyes open. I'm like, wow, this medium is so powerful. It's incredible.

Alex Ferrari 9:21
I do I do

Franco Sama 9:24
the work that you do, because it's not just you know, when I talk to people about indie film, hustle, you know, we get into these conversations about all of the work that you do and the different, you know, podcasts that they've heard and the value that they get out of that and so I'm always encouraging people number one, get on board with Alex and, and I mean it I don't just say it, because I'm so grateful for our relationship, but because it's true.

Alex Ferrari 9:49
I pray I appreciate that. Frank, I appreciate that. And you and you're, you know, you're a straight shooter. In the world of film finance, there's not many, there's not many of you out there. I call you a unicorn There's unicorns out there. There's just very special, unique, you know, limited amounts of people in certain areas of our business and you are definitely one of them. So, so let's get into it today, my friend, you know, a lot has changed since 2017. a lot. Back then, back then it's two years ago. But back then, you know, s VOD was all the rage. You know, and Ott was going to be the big thing. And now it's a VOD. And the there was, there was no Disney plus there was no HBO Max, there was no peacock, there was no, I mean to be was barely getting off the ground. Pluto was, you know, guest coming up as well. So in the current marketplace? Well, first of all, you know, we'll talk about the elephant in the room, which is, as of this recording, the virus is affecting a lot of people around the world. And is yes, I just did, and I just did an episode this week about how the Coronavirus is actually affecting our industry. And we've lost, you know, lost, I think in China, they lost $2 billion in revenue worldwide, already 4 billion in revenue. And it's no notes, no stop and cite, like literally China right now, which is I think it's the second or the first biggest market, I'm not sure now, I don't know if it overtook the US or not. But they shut down 70,000 screens and like they shut down their their box office, which is decimating a very fragile, and honestly, in my opinion, vulnerable film industry, which I feel that the China market has been propping up the losses that occurred from DVDs and all the other foreign sales and all these other things that were there before, that have been taken away over the years. And China was kind of like, bubbling it up a little bit. But then all of a sudden, it's gone. And everyone's like, Oh, crap. So how do you how do you see this affecting our marketplace moving forward in 2020?

Franco Sama 11:59
Well, I mean, absolutely. The rug has been pulled out from underneath the industry. I mean, not certainly just our industry, but every industry and worldwide. It's a it's a it's, you know, the consequences of what is occurring right now is gonna probably impact us for the next decade. That's what I believe. And I we will get past it we do we do, yes, we get thing. But it really is going to require a readjust and major readjust, almost protect, potentially a complete paradigm shift in the way we do business. I mean, the good news prior to this event of the viruses that because of all of these emerging, emerging sort of marketplaces, content is now much more valuable, right? Because I remember back, when I was first starting off, you know, you're trying to get knocked down a door to get somebody to pay attention to you, because you had something, a project that you wanted to bring in. And people would just slam the door on you and get out of here, kid, you know, those roles have reversed quite a bit now. And content is king, and there's so much space now that needs to be filled with content. So that puts the creative people in a in a better position in terms of that. But then the question is, you know, now, the throngs of possibilities, how do you penetrate that? How do you patent that, because now you've got a billion times more competition than you used to have. So even though there's more opportunity, and access, it's still sort of a funnel. And, you know, somebody's getting stuck in that, you know, there's only a few people coming through that from everybody that's pouring into it. So I think, honestly, more than ever, you know, this, this business has always been a business of relationships. And you and I are a testament to that, you know, and not just you and I, but all of the people that you and I have in common in our circle, you know, that we help each other at all the events in our little comic clan. Right, right. Well, that's the core of the independent of the independent film world, at least here in LA. And I think that especially somebody new, they have to really focus on building those internal relationships. And finding the good guys, right, because the, there's a lot of good guys out there. You know, I being able to identify those people, and stay with them and work hard to make sure that they nurture and maintain those relationships over a long period of time, because this is the long game this whole industry is about playing the long game. So if anybody's in it for a quick anything, you know, it's a quick book, or they want to get famous, you know, quickly or they want to win an Oscar in the first film. That's not of the mindset. It just isn't, you know, you're not seeing Got fa, that's can't be the mindset. You know, there's nothing wrong with having that kind of ambition and dream, but you also have to have your feet in reality and grounded. And and I think that, you know, as long as people stay close to people like us who are in it for the right reasons and have and have all of the right intentions, and like you said earlier, I'm a straight shooter. You know, I tell people, things they don't want to hear every single day. Yes. And you know, and I'm proud of that, because I know that they're going, Oh, harsh, you know, but at the end of the day, you know, I'm doing it because A, I haven't got time. For Bs, I just don't, I got 12 films in production just came out of principal photography. Got a million things going on right now. So the last thing I have time for is to babysit for somebody, right? And to hold somebody's hand, now, I am willing to take my time and work with somebody over the long haul. But they have to be doing the heavy lifting, at the end of the day, they have to make their contribution, especially if it's their their film, there's so many people that come to people like me, and they have an expectation, which is already a problem, they have an expectation that they're going to be able to hand something over to me and that I'm going to do it for them or take it from there. And it's the complete opposite. I will help empower them to do it themselves. And give them the tools and the resources and the knowledge and the information and whatever it is that they need for that. But I'm not, I don't work for them. And they don't work for me. It's a matter. That's what a collaboration. So as far as the global market is concerned, I really think it's kind of a wait and see, I think we've got to kind of wait and see how this thing flushes out. You know, with the spray example, South by Southwest being canceled was a major, major, major blow, you know, we're talking about $365 million in revenue potential is just wiped. And I'm working with a couple of organizations that I'm affiliated with, to try to help potentially screen some of these filmmakers films that would have gone they're here in LA. So that at least kind of give them a little bit of a leg up. Because I know that this must be crushed.

Alex Ferrari 17:29
I mean, can you imagine spending your whole life you like I got into South by like, I've my film got an insight and then all of a sudden, it's canceled because of a virus scare. I can't even imagine, I can't even imagine.

Franco Sama 17:43
I can't either. It's got to be gut wrenching. And, you know, it could be and for some people that could be an insurmountable problem, you know, something that they they may never recover from because they might have all their eggs in that one basket, which is another yet but um, so that's why I'm saying we're gonna try to at least do something I don't know yet. We got a couple of you know, organizations that I belong to, you know, I'm a I'm a I'm on the board of directors at New filmmakers, Los Angeles. We're partnering with some other groups here in LA, in, in combining our resources in terms of theatres and space, and being able to get some of these from shown, at least here in LA for audiences, despite the fact that they're not going to be able to compete in festival.

Alex Ferrari 18:32
Yeah, and I know our be our mutual friend Rb bado from stage 32. He's trying to do something as well to help those filmmakers as well. They'll be one of those partners that we're we'll be working with Yeah, yeah. It's It's, it's, it's, it's devastating. It's devastating. Now, I've been I've been yelling from the top of the mountain now for a while saying, Hey, guys, right now, things are getting really tight. As far as the mid level and lower level distributors, they're getting more predatory. You know, there's always good guys, but there's a lot of bad guys out there in that world. And we're in a, we were in a fairly good economic time. And I go, wait until the fit hits the Shan and all of a sudden, things start tightening. And we saw it in a way and you will go back to away you start seeing companies start falling left and right because they were fragile in this in the in the in the in the first place. Do you see you know, obviously as of this recording, the market has had one of the worst weeks few like last two weeks since 2008. A lot of people are saying that this is the first signs of something going to happen. We're do we're late. We're late for something to happen. Do you feel love to hear your opinion? Do you feel that some of the studios, and there's only a handful of big studios left but you think of the studios and also some of these larger distributors are vulnerable because they're there. They're fragile In the first place, because they're not diversified, like Disney, we're good, this is gonna be fine. You know, Warner's will probably be fine, universal will probably be fine. But they're super diversified, where some of the other studios aren't, and especially these distribution companies who are not diversified at all. And they're just, they're just making the money with distribution. If those channels start, like what we were just talking about, like China shuts down, and then all of a sudden the foreign market shuts down, all of a sudden, all this all this flow ends, do you feel that there's gonna be a reckoning, if you will, in our industry?

Franco Sama 20:32
I do. I do. And, you know, I have to say, this is a very unpopular position. But as bad as that is, and is probably going to be, the industry really needs to purge. And this might be that I believe this is the, you know, Phoenix Rising, because what's going to emerge from that catastrophic event is going to be a new perspective and a new way of doing things. Because, you know, I've been saying for a long time, I kept predicting about five years ago, I was started predicting that the overall model of the sales of more of the sales companies, as opposed to the actual distributors, right, the sort of middlemen between the from the middleman and

Alex Ferrari 21:23
the middleman and the middleman of the middlemen, right?

Franco Sama 21:27
That's where the all the breakdown is, right? I mean, you hear you have all these filmmakers, myself included, who spent, you know, years of their lives and dedicate, you know, 10s of 1000s, if not millions of dollars in getting investment, and doing everything they're supposed to do, they do it all right, not always, I mean, people make mistakes, but for those who do go down the path and and actually produce a quality film that deserves to be seen in the world, and then they go into the distribution market, and they get crushed,

Alex Ferrari 22:03
Decimated,

Franco Sama 22:05
They get crushed. And as a result of that domino effect backwards now, because the sales companies, some of them are are doing sales, recovering, proceeds and not paying, you know about that, right. And then there are others that are just in it for the, for the upfront marketing fees. And once they collect their fees, they lose interest in the film, and they move on to the next one, and then that one after that, so they're in the marketing fee collection business, as opposed to the distribution of film business. And I've been saying for five years now, that's going to implode at some point, it's going to come back and bite them. Because instead of having the mindset of well wait a minute, if we take care of these people, these talented seriously, right, if we No,

Alex Ferrari 22:57
I agree with you,

Franco Sama 22:59
These talented, young, talented, entrepreneurial filmmakers that really have their act together, and have the resources and the wherewithal to go out there and figure out how to raise 2 million bucks to make the movie in the first place. And then they make a great movie, right? Wouldn't it be who've us to, like build long term relationships with these people, and make sure that those in filmmakers are able to return those investments to their, to their investors and make with profits so that those investors will continue to keep investing in them, and we can continue to prosper and grow? Unfortunately, in the vast majority of cases, that's not the case. Because the mindset, it just isn't. I know. And, you know, like I says, I'm very unpopular position to be taking, but the mindset is more along the lines of there'll be another one right behind you. Correct, there's a long line is never gonna end. And you know, what we'll, we'll we're gonna do, we're gonna do, we're gonna get make this money and good luck on your film, and with your investors. And, unfortunately, if that falls off the wayside, there's going to be 100 more filmmakers in that line trying to get that same deal that looks on the surface, like a great opportunity, and then turns out not to be so I've been saying for a very long time that that has got that will self implode, like it can't sustain itself. It can't be sustainable. And to your point. Unfortunate, unfortunately, I think this could be a sign that, you know, those those are the most likely of people they're going to probably be the ones to fall by the wayside. And when when the dust settles in, everybody kind of comes back out of the ether and from whatever is going to be occurring over the next year or two. I think there is going to be a whole new way of looking at this thing and finding, I mean, even now some of the deals I'm working on, you know, we're working on a couple of I have a couple of film funds that I'm building in, you know, the name of a company, and, and I'm consulting on other on others. And I'm telling these people, you know that, that it, we can't go out and raise all these millions of dollars, and then dump it all handed over to some third party that's going to take the lion's share, and leave us hanging, especially now, if we're the investors and it's our money. So we're looking at ways to be able to minimize that one of those ways is to reduce that marketing fee, down to only like, about $10,000.

Alex Ferrari 25:43
Which is nothing in the grand scope of things. Yeah. But imagine, you know, taking what is traditionally a 5060, I've seen 8500 152, I've seen 200 Oh, yeah.

Franco Sama 25:56
Ridiculous. And it's, it's just wrong. It's just wrong. Just imagine if that number was kept at like, 15,000. You know. So those are the little things that, you know, we're trying to do internally here. And that's why I said goes back to my point earlier about new filmmakers, or even current filmmakers staying close to people like us who are fighting every day and working towards coming up with solutions for some of these things. So that infant when the bottom falls out of this thing, you know, they'll be a small group of people who will be able to survive it. And, and actually, you know, exceed expectations from there.

Alex Ferrari 26:38
I mean, in Oh, eight, when did Netflix start? Like the streaming side of Netflix, it was around? Oh, 8090 10, it was a matter of mistaken right. It was, that's when the beginning stages of streaming, which was horrible at the time, obviously. But that's when it started. And Netflix came out of the streaming side of Netflix came out of the Oh, eight thing and look how that completely transformed our industry. And they're there every once in a while there needs to be a purge. And I agree with you, I 100%. agree with you. I 100%. think there needs to be a wiping of the slate in many ways. If the companies are strong, and they have good business models that can sustain hits then right.

Franco Sama 27:18
Ethical and ethical. Correct. And they'll survive. Correct, survive, they have always, they have a better chance of surviving. You know, it's interesting, you bring up Netflix, because I remember, you know, in those days, me personally, my company, we made the vast majority of our money back then on DVDs,right?

Alex Ferrari 27:37
What is the What is it? What is it? What is the DVD? What do we have the flu? But anyway, coasters, like coasters, get that?

Franco Sama 27:46
Yeah, that's what they are now. That's what we use them for now. But anyway, um, yeah, we, you know, that was in the DVD days, right? When, when, as a distributor or sales company, we have these really exorbitant, exorbitant hard cost, right, because we're going to bring a film out to market who's going to go to like Walmart and all these places, but mostly in those days to blockbuster in the in an all of those 1000s and 1000s. of other chain, you know, kind of video West Coast video. Yeah. So there was the hard cost associated with that, that we had a cover while the distributor had a cover. And it was expensive, because now you have to print every one of those things, then you have to package it, you know, you have the artwork, you have the plastic, and then you have the shipping. And what a lot of people don't realize is back then, if we got an order for 20,000 DVDs, or a movie to Walmart, in 90 days, if Walmart wanted to, they could charge us back and send back 9000 of those 10,000 orders. And we'd have already cashed the check. So we have to now be on the hook for all those DVDs that they they rejected that never got sold. So that was a huge problem. So what was interesting about Netflix is you know, at the time, remember they were delivering the DVD to your home. And so it was great because you still got that thing that disk, but you didn't have to go anywhere to go get it. And from a distribution standpoint, from our standpoint, we were covering maybe the mailing costs of it because they came in a little sleeve, right. So there was a lot of that other cost was eliminated. But then when they switched over to streaming and the DVD just went out of style. That changed everything completely because now there is zero cost. There's nothing here real hard costs. There's nothing to charge back. And so now that profit margin significantly increased. And essentially we're still there today with the morphia but

Alex Ferrari 29:55
it's significantly creased, but the money that you can get for your film it Completely decreased dramatically. So the cost, so like, perfect, perfect example, though before DVD would cost you 15 bucks. Right? Yeah. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. And now a movie cost you free. If it's on prime, yeah. Or if it's on part of your streaming service. So the devaluation as is really hurt the filmmaker in many ways, correct.

Franco Sama 30:34
100% I mean, it was five or $6, just to rent it for the night.

Alex Ferrari 30:40
And I know, even before that, the VHS Don't forget you used to get charged, if you didn't rewind, be kind rewind.

Franco Sama 30:47
It used to guitars be kind rewind. That was,

Alex Ferrari 30:53
Could you imagine I worked in the video store, I remember it was I piss people off dramatically, like, sorry, I gotta charge an extra bucks, you didn't rewind it. Ah.

Franco Sama 31:04
So I remember going out at three o'clock in the morning and stick it in that little slot they had that would drop into the trash basket. So it would be there in the morning. So I wouldn't get charged for the next day.

Alex Ferrari 31:14
It's it's I mean, we were barbarians. Let's just put it out that we were barbarians. We were just like just

Franco Sama 31:21
I was just talking to a filmmaker the other day about this and saying, look, you know, for the people coming up the young kids coming up, right? You know, today is like a such a different conversation. I mean, in terms, you know, when I started, somebody asked me, What about the origins of PMA, like, you know, why do they call it PMA. I said, Because back then when I started, the P was print. And the print was a 35 millimeter reel that was this gigantic. And you usually need a two for each film is the film didn't fit on one. And we used to have to deliver them and get into a band and bring them to the theater to bring them up into the screening room. On every theater, they have what

Alex Ferrari 32:05
was a print print, I know if I remember correctly, it would be like a $20,000 cost or $15,000 cost, right? Very expensive per print per print. Now you can literally upload it. And they can download it for free essentially, almost Yeah. Or

Franco Sama 32:24
you can you can literally walk into a theater with a USB in his mind movie. You know what I mean? But But I remember those days, I remember literally physically delivering those huge 35 mil millimeter prints really heavy and on the thick film, and it was it was a very cool thing. But yeah, we you talked about that kind of money for every single theater. It was it was just it was so hard to make money. It was you know, because that was your that was just your delivery cost to get and

Alex Ferrari 32:56
that was the cause that was you needed to get to look at the ROI and like how many how many assets and seats Could I get to recoup this cost? And then the theater was taken 50% and it was this I mean, like so it took a lot. That's what you had to pump a lot of money into advertising, and to make that money to make that money. But that's when VH like when a home video showed up. Of course the whole industry was scared to death. But then they figured out Wait a minute, we can make some money here. And all of a sudden it changed but then it's been slowly you've been seeing it from the days of 35 millimeter print all the way now to zero cost. But also really hard to generate revenue coming in from those channels. Unless you're creative. It's It's It's a very interesting journey that we've we've gone upon. Now I wanted to ask you something and and I wanted you to clear up something for me because there's a lot of you know, we have this this little group that I started on Facebook called protect yourself from predatory film distributors and aggregators, which started off as a distributor, Facebook group, and now it's become like this hub of the latest distribution techniques, who's screwing Who? Asking questions about, you know, certain distributors, or sales reps and things like that. And people just, you know, it's it's a wealth of information, I want you to clarify, and I'm not going to use the distributors name. But and when the second I give you the description, you probably don't know who it is, but I'm not gonna say it. But if a distributor is putting out 40 to 50 movies a month, a month, how much attention is going to each release. And they might be a very, very grandiose, the distribution company has, you know, this perceived value for independent filmmakers, and they're like, Hey, I'm with x company. Now, look at that I have arrived. But yet, you'll get $0 ever from that, from that situation? In many cases? What's your opinion of that scenario? And there's not there's a handful of those companies out there that just they just pump them out, and they're just throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks essentially.

Franco Sama 34:56
Well, that was what I was gonna say. It really comes down to that right? It is it's the beginning. You know, let's say they sign up 10 films, right? in a given period of time in the in the, in the next 30 days, they they sign up 10. So that means they're finding, you know, these people that we've been talking about filmmakers who have worked hard who have, presumably, in most cases completed their film, sometimes not, but and they have to sign up this agreement. Well, we've you and I talked about this, those agreements can be 15 year commitments, you know, I mean, they tend to be five, seven or 10 years, I set them up to 25. Now they're going, they're getting so predatory, it's going up to 25. So now, because they want to lock the filmmaker in, like, literally forever, right, so that they can't go somewhere else. And the truth is, even if they don't do anything with the film, the filmmaker can't take it and go someplace else with it. So they're essentially being held hostage. So now they sign these 10 agreements. And let's say, just to use that round number, let's say that every one of those agreements, requires a $100,000 marketing fee that people should understand comes from the sales, right? I mean, it's not an upfront, we don't have to write them a check for 100,000. But the first 100,000 in sales that's generated, we are agreeing that they're going to get to keep as their quote unquote, marketing fee. Right? And that when it's legit, is fine. Because what it says to me as a filmmaker is okay, there's nine other people here I'm sharing the pot with. And so does that mean that when they go out and do the front and the back page, add of the variety and The Hollywood Reporter throughout all of AFM for that entire suite? That might my poster is going to be on there? Or it's going to be or they're going to be looping much my film on the on the on the screen? No, it doesn't mean that. It would, it means it but but I'm paying the same as everybody else, right. So now this in this scenario, this company, who shall remain nameless, has just is going to sell the shit out of that film for until they hit the $100,000. Mark, right, because that's their money. So now, they have just brought in a million dollars on 10 films, right off of the backs of the filmmaker and their investors, but then hit that plateau. And I've seen this happen to me other way. Once they hit the plateau, their commission goes from that 100% of revenue down to 20. Because that's their commission. So now they're only and that and if they do make a sale after that, that remaining 80% becomes my filmmaker, my first money, right. But now they've lost interest. And they kick the thing to the curb. However, out of those 12 to 10 films, two of them might be deforming like gangbusters. And the other ones are just kind of mediocre. But two, one or two of them might be just taken the lead without question. And for short hit. Those are the ones they're going to focus on. They're going to move the other eight aside. They're going to take those films and they're going to really push until they can squeeze every dollar out of it even at 20% now it's worth their while. And then next month, they're gonna go find 10 more filmmakers. And by the way, while we're all trying to figure out where we're going to get the money to go to can those sitting on a yacht pop in my way, hmm. $1,000 marketing fee off of my movie that I can't afford to go see at the festival.

Alex Ferrari 38:44
Now, I wanted to bring back something that's why I love having you on the show because we speak the same language. That that that's an area that you talked about the print ad in variety during AFM. Now, let's say on that print that they have 20 posters, okay, and that that ad cost 20,000 bucks, let's say right for that for that week on variety. Is it fair to say, because I've seen this happen? Is it fair to say that they're not going to cut up that 20,000 or prorate that? 20,000 per 20? They're not going to charge each filmmaker 1000 bucks in the accounting, they'll charge each filmmaker 20,000 bucks for an add. Does that make sense? Well, I've never seen that it wouldn't surprise me. Yeah, that's it. That's called it that isn't that Hollywood accounting?

Franco Sama 39:35
Well, yeah, but that's where it all goes wrong. And that's what I'm trying to say. I had gone to the executive, you know, first of all, your listeners should understand that in these agreements, the filmmaker has the right to win an audit, write it once a year at their own expense. So if you wanted to, you could go to this company after the deals done and everything's happening. You have the right to go in and audit the books and take a look at what the scenario actually is how much is being spent on what and what not. And so if that were the case, you would see what you just described. That said, you wouldn't know that it wasn't $20,000. But because in your mind you thinking I was on the cover of variety, or I was on the back cover variety. And it might make sense to a first or second time filmmaker, that it would cost 20 grand to do that, when you're right, they just made 150,000 $200,000 off of a $20,000 hat. The problem is, number one, nobody ever goes in for that audit. Nobody ever follows up on it, if they forget that,

Alex Ferrari 40:43
if it's even under contract.

Franco Sama 40:46
Right, but assuming that it is number one, you got I hate to say this, but it just it's only because I've actually experienced this, I'm speaking this way. But number one, you know, it's it's incumbent upon the filmmaker to initiate that process. Number two, it's like the IRS audit. You know, it's like, I'm sorry, you got to go to lunch. Can you come back next Tuesday? Right? So actually trying to find the time to get them to commit to letting you come in there to audit their books on your movie. Good luck. Forget about it. Right? And then even if that happens, what guarantee do we have? And I'm not accusing anybody of anything?

Alex Ferrari 41:29
You mean that there's a second set of book sir? No, no, stop it. You mean like mob style, like mob style?

Franco Sama 41:36
Like, here you go. Take a good look. Yeah, it's just and this is why I've been saying for all these years, that it's going to implode, bite them all. You know, it's got to come back. This is not sustainable. It can't be. It can't be it's no, it's no longer acceptable. The other thing, I think that's playing into this, you know, when I first started independent filmmakers, were a joke, we were considered a joke. We weren't ever taken seriously. And we, it was so easy for them to toss us aside. Like we were just a bunch of freaks, you know, until we started winning Best Picture every year.

Alex Ferrari 42:19
Right? This year, even even this year, Jesus a foreign film for the first time

Franco Sama 42:24
this year. So for like seven out of the last eight years, it's been an independent film, right? You're not seeing these big tentpole blockbuster films, when he goes picture, we're making those movies where we are making those movies, we might be distributing them through the studio system for exposures, perfect, you know, purpose, but were the ones who were making those movies, we the independent film community. So it became clear at some point that we as a community are now a force to be reckoned with. And you can't treat us the way you used to treat us back in, you know, 15 years ago when I got started. So. But the irony is that although a lot of the components of the industry have shifted and improved for us as independent filmmakers, as we've progressed, that one thing is just never changed. That distribution model of ripping off filmmakers doesn't change. And that's the reason why people are hungry for a distributor right to try to find an alternative to that they're trying to find a way to self distribute their films. And that's why people are, you know, doing it on Facebook get on whenever they can. They're looking for any means other than the traditional because that gap is starting to close.

Alex Ferrari 43:45
Right. And the thing is, unfortunately, if you have a half a million or a million dollar film, self distribution can happen. But man, you've got to be hitting it at every, every cylinder has to hit perfectly. You can't you got to know exactly what you're doing. So that's why I keep selling, if you're going to go down that road, keep the cost as low as humanly possible to be the ROI so you can get into the black faster, you know, $15,000 indie, which could be excellent, it's going to have a lot better chance than $150,000 indie to generate money back because both you and I know how difficult it is to get eyeballs to get people to look at your films. It's it's just an insane it's an insane system. It's like going back in the olden days, like how many I call it I and I've said this publicly and I have many many times. I feel what happened in the metoo movement, which was it was something that was a standard way of doing business in Hollywood like the casting couch. The casting couch was a thing from back in chaplains day everybody Oh yeah, I gotta go on the casting couch. You get that part. All of that right. And me to kind of exploded that situation and all for the better. Of course. I feel that what's happened Two filmmakers over the course of that same time, and even more. So now is a financial kind of raping of because you, you, you, you put up three 400 $500,000 of your own money or your mom's parents or whatever, or investors money. And there's literally just stealing from you stealing it legally, it's insane. So I think you're right, there is an absolute reckoning coming. And I think that the system can't keep going. I think it was easier in the 80s in the 90s. And even in the early 2000s, because the volume was a lot different, the distribution outlets were a lot different. But now because of so much, this, this system can't hold. That's why it stayed like that for what 8090 years. Because it was pretty much locked. But now it's a it's the Wild Wild West. And they can't they can't handle it anymore. They don't even know how to deal with it. So they're trying to go they're trying they're trying to use the horse and buggy on a on a Ferrari no pun intended. And it doesn't you know, the the whip on the lights trying to make the car go with the horse and whip like no dude, that that's car as an engine, it runs on gas, it's not a horse. Do you agree?

Franco Sama 46:09
100% on your say. And you know, the other aspect of this, that's this, it's already rearing its ugly head is on the investor side, you know, with what happened in the stock market just last week, week or two, you know, when they say investors, you know, when they talk about the stock market, in any other, you know, aspect. And so, we essentially are experiencing right now a freeze on investment. But nobody's The last thing somebody wants to do is talk to me right now, this moment about putting up a million dollars. Right? You know, it's getting tougher for you? Well, for everybody, because they're just trying to find a way to protect the money that they have. You know, and, you know, in some ways, it may be a good way to divert the funds and put it into something, you know, that has the potential to really grow. But he but this goes back to what we're talking about the whole time, is that one of the issues we have even with the investors that I deal with on a regular basis, is that these guys hear these horror stories. They know what's going on. And so what happens is you now I now find myself in a position where an investor might say to me, Listen, I'll put up the money for this movie, but I want a distribution deal. upfront, I want you to sign a distribution deal. And my response to that usually is that's a bad idea. Because it is because I understand Mr. investor, that this will give you a sense of security, because you've got this person's brand name attached to your film as a distributor. But let me tell you, as an experienced filmmaker with 24, or whatever films under my belt, I can tell you badly, that we are going to be better off if you just put the money up and let trust us to do our job and make a really great film. And then let us go out there and compete in the marketplace. Let us go to the film festivals, let us have you know, let's get us a bunch of distributors vying for our, for our project, let's not sell our soul to the devil today, just so that you can feel a bit more secure. Because in my opinion, you have a way better chance of not only making your money back but making a much higher upside. If you let us go make a great movie and go out and compete with it. Then if you lock us into some seven or 15 year deal with some schmuck who's never going to move, and we're gonna end up making this great movie and we can't even do anything with it. Because we already sold our soul to the devil. over what over your lack of security.

Alex Ferrari 48:50
Your insecurity?

Franco Sama 48:52
Yeah, doesn't make any sense. That's a conversation I often have to have with investors. And it's a tough conversation to have, because you're literally saying to them, you know, let's let me take the security away from you. And trust me to do what we do. And in the long run, you'll we believe that we'll be better for it. But as a person,

Alex Ferrari 49:13
but it's just a perceived security. It's not really security. It's not like you're signing with Disney or Warner's and they're giving you a massive upfront fee that's covering your budget. That's not the case. You're basically just doing it. You're just signing it up like anybody else in the Navy, if you're lucky, they give you a minimum guarantee of a quarter of the budget. And that's like amazing if they did that. But that's that's not happening. I was I was talking to a filmmaker. I was talking to filmmaker at AFM. And they were telling me like, Hey, you know, I made a movie for 150,000 there. They were from, I think South Africa or Australia as well and one of those two, and it's like we made 100 $150,000 film I'm like, and we got an mg. I'm like, Oh, great. What, you know, who did you sign with? And they told me the company I'm like, okay, that's fine. Um, what what because when I heard mg Mike, who gets it mg in today's world, like, for an independent film, how much do they do? And he's like, Oh, they gave us 30 and go 30. Okay, is that for a certain territory? He goes, No, we gave him worldwide. And I'm like, so you got 30,000 for a product that you paid 50 150,000 for, and you locked up your film for seven years. And he was just so happy that he got 30,000 ago, what other business in the world? Do you spend 150,000 to make 30,000? Like that? Doesn't? It makes no sense. But for, for filmmakers were like happy, right? And he's like, No, no, but my films gonna get out there. I'm like, dude. And I mean, I think he walked away a little deflated. I fixed boats. Like, do you realize what you just did? Like, it may I mean, if you if you're selling off one, right, or one territory for 30,000, and you still can keep going? Great. But you sold this, you sold your soul for 30? grand? Yeah, you're never gonna make your money back. It's insane.

Franco Sama 51:01
And people who have been in this business, as long as you and I have all know that mg is the kiss of death, because you'll never see another Penny, you'll get your, your the amount, you know, maybe, but but I've heard that. Even then, you know, I always tell people, you know, you got to look underneath all of this stuff, right? I have a lot of people send me contracts and agreements to take a look at, right? Because you got to really know how to how to read these things. And I had an mg once was for $400,000 is a long time ago, when they did that was for $400,000. Right. But what I didn't know, was they put in $100,000 of that mg was for producers. Now I was wanting my partner was one. So those 25 and 25. But then they put in 25,000 each for the two of them, which was the two partners at the company, right? So they're paying themselves 50,000 out of the out of the 400,000. So in real life 350 out of the 400. And it's really 300, right? And then the payout was something like $50,000. The first money didn't even hit until the year. So there was nothing upfront. And then it was like in 18 months, you get another 50 and another and then you get 100. And it was the whole thing was the most embarrassing bizarre thing I ever saw saw. And so on one hand, I was excited because I'm getting this $400,000 mg that I can get to that I could maybe go monetize, right, or I could do a lot of things. I could brag about it. But then when I looked at the thing, I literally it's interesting because that deal severed that 10 year relationship. Because what I said to them is, Are you kidding me? The fact that you would even suggest to put this in front of me means that you think I'm a chump. And we've had this relationship for 10 years. And this is such a slap in the face. And you know what their response was? Well, it was just a starting point. You know, we were we were open to negotiating. And I'm like, well go negotiate with somebody else. And I literally just tore up the document I walked away. It was horrible. And we haven't spoken since. Isn't it sad?

Alex Ferrari 53:21
Isn't it amazing? Like I met another filmmaker at AFM this year. And she was offered this is the deal that she was offered. She was offered a 20 year deal. For her thriller from Africa. It was an African thriller. And it was it was a 20 year deal with a $50,000 mg an IMG a $50,000 marketing cap. But wait, which doesn't sound with the 20 years is horrible. But the 50,000 like you know, and it see Okay, fine. I gotta kind of get it. No, no, no, no, it was 50,000 a year. A year for 20. So would have been $2 million in marketing and expenses over the course of the contract. And she even she as an experienced that she knew she was she's like this sounds a bit dodgy. So she went back to this guy. And by the way, this was a sales rep. This wasn't even a distributor, it was a sales rep. And they get a sheet like this. I don't think he's like, okay, okay, okay, Listen, why don't we just do 10 years and a $50,000 total. And he she's like, so basically you were trying to screw me? He's like, yeah, it was it was just a starting. He was a starting point. So they throw out these ridiculous deals. And by the way, that company that we were talking about earlier, the one that that is 50 or 40, or 50. They're infamous for this. I've seen the agreements, they'll they'll toss out 20 year, all the time. That's their standard practice now is 20 years. With 100,000 and then they'll and then I had a filmmaker, go back to them and go look, this sounds like all right. All right, seven. Like, I'm literally, it's like, you're gonna go buy a house and we're like, we need a million dollars. cash. I'm like, this seems a bit much. Okay. Okay. 250. Like, like, what do you? What are you doing? Are you in the car? You guys? Let me go talk to my manager, oh, the manager. And they go drink a cup of coffee and go. I think I got another live one. Yeah, yeah. All right. It's a racket. And now, I wanted to ask you because I know your budget. What did you budget ranges in the films that you work with? Generally? About a million million to three, right? Yeah. 123. Okay, so at that way, but I'm sorry, say that again. That's the sweet spot. Okay, thank you three. So you're, you're you're outside the normal independent filmmaker, because normal indepedent filmmakers in the current economic environment in the current environment and marketplace, in general, are half a million and below, once you start getting above half a million, you really need to know what you're doing is a general as a general statement. So the 123 from my experience, at least for 123, there's a smaller group of people playing in that and that sandbox. So I'm curious how you are generating your revenue? And how are you getting returns for your, for your investors? Because obviously, you've been doing this for a few years. So obviously, you're making some sort of money. So what is what are the revenue streams? And you have to give me numbers, but just curious, like, okay, I do this, I go here, I do that, how do you structure a deal? That makes sense?

Franco Sama 56:37
Well, I actually just in 2020, made a decision to get out of the under million dollar world In the end, because I've been doing it, you know, I've had a couple of these movies that are like, you know, 507 50, whatever. 600. But here's the reality today, and why I no longer do that, and why I stick to the 123. You know, part of it is because of the distribution world. And because the because the demands now are unreasonable. You know, when you talk about who, what, what level actor, these distribution people that sales companies require you to have in your film in order to, you know, even have a slight interest, or for that matter for the investors, because, you know, we run sales projections on every deal before we even think about going out to investors. And that's one of the biggest problems that a lot of filmmakers have is they're all running around trying to cast people and they've never even been running the numbers on people that they're going up against. So don't even get me started on that. But because that's a huge pet peeve of mine, because it doesn't work. And it makes no sense. But aside from that, when you're in that range, one of the things like I have finance partners that will monetize tax credits and, and presale contracts, right? Because those are hard assets, they're collateral. So there's very little risk involved. I mean, that doesn't mean that the state of Utah might go broken, or their film thing might run out of money. I mean, that that's all still possible. But for all intents and purposes, if you have a certificate from a state, you're going to be able to cash in on that and that money is coming in. So an investor feel safe doing that, because it's no, it's No, there's nothing, they're not the equity, they're not the risk taker, and then you win, then what we do is we package that with, let's say, there's a pre sale for 50 $50,000. And I have a tax credit of 200, I can take that whole 250. And I can with through my lending sources, I can lend to the filmmaker, that 250,000 put it in their bank account next to their equity, and now they have most of the money, if not all of it to go ahead and make the film. So that's kind of how that works. The problem is that even though the film itself, the budget of the film, let's say it's 375 might qualify in the state of Massachusetts for a tax 25% tax credit, it doesn't qualify for tax credit funding. Because it's too low, it's too small of an amount. And these guys apparently go do 200 do these, you know, 80,000 90,000 $100,000 loans, it's not worth it for them. So what happens is the criteria now has changed. So now the loan amount has to be 300,000. So if the loan amount is 300,000, your budget, it has to be a million dollars, and now you're qualified to us to be able to monetize that tax credit. And then if you can add a minimum guarantee, you know, or a pre sale to that we can bundle it in lended up lend out the money. So that's one of the reasons being and the other reason is in order to get a pre sale or potential mg based on what I mean if you're making a movie for $350,000, who we are going to Get in that movie that's going to justify a warrant any kind of an mg, you're not nobody. So so it just doesn't make the grade, when you get into that 1.5 2.5 range, you find yourself in a little bit better position where a, you do qualify for tax credit funding. And you might have a shot at being able to get a pre sale, or something in addition to that, that you can bundle up and input it.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:32
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Franco Sama 1:00:43
And then, so that's the goal is to try to patch it that way, what I've been working on for the last year and a half. And I continue to and I hope to have done by the end of this year. And I think you know this because I think we've talked about it privately, but I'm working on putting together these phone funds, two of them, that will alleviate all of these problems by being able to advance 100% of the budget upfront for the spouse. So somebody brings in a project that gets approved through our fund. And it's $2 million, we're just going to write the check, and go make the movie and not deal with this nonsense of jumped through hoops, and figuring out textures. Now, we'll still go to want to go to a tax credit environment and and recoup that, that 25 or 30% for ourselves as the fund as part of our recruitment. But we're not required to, which means that if I want to shoot in a state, or wherever, that doesn't happen to have a tax credit, I'm not prohibited anymore, by the numbers, I can go, I got the whole money. The other benefit to that is you have the proof of funds upfront 100% of your budget. So when you are making those offers to those actors, you're now negotiating from a position of strength by saying here's my proof of funds, I have $2.5 million in the account. And here's my offer for 250. And even then I'm going to be in a position to be able to write a check for 10% of that 25,000 as a down payment towards that offer. So it elevates me and puts me in a place where I can start making stronger offers to better, you know, bigger names, which will yield, you know, better returns. And so that's why I brought everything up into that into that space. And it's a great space to be in, in terms of, for me, at least in my resources. Once you break 5 million, and you go up into the eight or 10 it comes a little bit of a black hole. And then from 10 million up. It's another whole ballgame. You know,

Alex Ferrari 1:02:37
now you spoke about pre sales. And I know that back in the day pre sales was a way to finance your whole film. Honestly, there was you know, you could literally go to all the markets pre sell all your moving. You had your budget, essentially, how is it in today's world? And I can only imagine what it's going to be like in the next four or five months, but or the rest of this year for that matter. But historically, within the like, let's say the last year, where are you getting these pre sales? Are they foreign pre sales? Are they like you? Are you carving out rights? Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's individual territories? And that's relationship that you just have?

Franco Sama 1:03:17
Yes. Yes, it's in its in its individual territories. I mean, you can go to a sales company and have them do it. But then we just said you're locked in. Right? So but there are lots of people, you know, when you're going around as long as I have that you can pick up the phone and say, Hey, Latin America, I need a sale. Here's my film. Can you get me something? Let Mary Yeah, I can get you 125k All right, I'll take it you know, because it because if you're right, in the old days, you could go theoretically, and just make your whole movie by selling off your pre sales but but at the same time, you really don't want to sell off your pre sales because it limits your your ability to earn revenue, right? Yep, sounds you make that sale. Right? It's gone. So now you're, you know, they can go exploit that phone territory, but you get nothing you get nothing out of that because you you cashed out. So you want to be strategic about you know, how where you sell those territory. So I'll get projects A lot of times, well, they want they're looking for funding, but they'll say okay, but five territories are already spoken for. And to me, that's a negative on my side, because that's five less territories I can I can work with revenue wise, but on the other side, it's very good thing because that indicates to me Well, if this if I've had territories have already purchased this thing, it must be good.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:40
So obviously has Eric Rob as Eric Roberts and Michael Madsen in it obviously so they have both that's an inside joke guys, everybody, Eric Roberts did how many movies last year 3535 movies. And I haven't done one with Eric but I've done my Michael so that's another so it was it was funny I joke about that because when I was doing posts there was a year I did three Eric Robert movies in one year I did all the posts on three Eric Robert movies and I was like, and my poor producer who spent like a lot of money to get Eric Robertson's movie was that was that was the anchor. He would go to distribution company. They're like, no, we're good. We've got three of Eric Roberts movies this year. We don't need a year. Another one. It was the diluted the market. Well,

Franco Sama 1:05:28
it's true. That's exactly what it is. It's a saturation it they get to a saturation point. And that did happen with Michael. But Michael is fine. He still makes us money.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:37
Yeah, he doesn't put 13 a movie every few years. And that brings it back up.

Franco Sama 1:05:42
Yeah, they're all gonna be fun. I mean, they're all fine. But it's true. There. There is a saturation point. And then the other thing I'd like to tell people too, because a lot of people don't understand this. And I think it's really important to understand, you know, people when people are pitching me these actors, you know, first of all, I have what I have this thing called a parenthese rule, the Privacy Rule. All right, now remember, I'm talking about international, so I'm not talking about domestic, right? Like the movie I did. Guns, girls and gambling. We had Christian Slater and Gary Oldman, right. So Christian Slater is a great domestic play. He's a great name, the United States and Canada, North America. But Gary Oldman is an international value name. Christian is not an international value name. So in a perfect world, you want both you want an actor that's going to pull your domestic audience, and then you want an actor that's going to give the buyer in Germany and UK and China a reason to want to buy your property or your rights, right, because Gary Oldman things is on the cover. Right? So that's the the kind of balancing act. But so the parenthese rule is, when people say to me and happens literally every single day of my life, they're pitching me something and they go, Oh, yeah, we got, you know, so and so. From such and such a movie, or from this TV show, she's on The CW right? She's

Alex Ferrari 1:07:02
rich, she's really hot right now. She's really hot.

Franco Sama 1:07:05
Yes. Okay, that's what I'm getting at. Right? So that may be well, true. But first of all the prints the test means if you can walk out this middle of the street, and just pull a random person and ask, give them that person's name, and have them know who they are, then they cut. It's great. If you can't, they can't they don't cut. So if I pull somebody up the street, and I go, Cameron Diaz, they go Yeah, love her.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:33
Right. Nicolas Cage, yes, again.

Franco Sama 1:07:36
Love them. Yeah, got it. But then you go, you know, Alex Ferrari, they're like, Who?

Alex Ferrari 1:07:42
First of all, I'm insulted. Sir. Secondly, I'm, I'm I am huge in Zimbabwe. I'm just saying, I'm you I can't walk the streets in Zimbabwe.

Franco Sama 1:07:53
That's like me in Japan, Japan, but but the thing I want to say about the point you made is the up and comers, right? It may be really true that they literally are on that skyrocketing trajectory. But even at close to the top of that, it takes about three years for that to translate into value on the open market takes three years. So somebody could out in this big huge movie, that's a blockbuster and everybody's crazy over them. And now they're getting parts from every single direction, and they want every movie that you go to see. But that doesn't give them that level of value in the international market, yet they have to earn that because you know, a lot of these people rise and fall.

Alex Ferrari 1:08:46
Oh, right. Oh, and in today's world,

Franco Sama 1:08:49
they do, they catapult up to a certain level, and then they just drop up, you never hear from them again. So that's not necessarily an investor, what investment you're looking for people who are going to be able to sustain that well beyond their rise period, you know, and maintain that name and face recognition. Those are the people that have value. And for that reason, it changes every year. And that's the reason why I tell these filmmakers one during through our program through the development program, we spent a lot of time researching, and figuring out making lists of actors that make sense for a given movie. Now that list down to five names for each with a casting director, and then bring that into the sales team, including the director By the way, so it could be the male lead the female lead, and then the director, we take all of that and sort of crunch the numbers with sales to figure out what kind of projections we can anticipate based on these people. And what combination of those people gives us the best numbers in the world. And then once I'm armed with those numbers, And my rule of thumb is they give you three columns, right, the low, the middle, and the hot, my rule of thumb is your low should be two times budget, one and a half to two times budget. So if you're making a movie, like I do at 2 million bucks, you want your low estimate to be at least three, between three and four, and you need the name power in order to get to that number. But now you have a strategy, because it when you do that, now you got a plan, these are the five actors, I got to go get one of these five actors. And if I don't, I, my investor can take his money back. Because I'm going to take the investment contingent upon me being able to deliver on my end, right, but I have to know what I'm delivering. So instead of just running around, talking about, oh, I want someone to be in my movie, that there's a science to this. It's not perfect. But at least it's a strategy that helps us determine, I tells filmmakers all the time. If you haven't done this work, if you don't know exactly what your budget is, and you don't know what your sales projections are, and you don't have a strategy around your cast, you do not have the right to be talking to investors, you shouldn't be doing it. If you're going out too soon, you're out there, having conversations with people with money, that you shouldn't be happening, because you're not prepared to have this conversation because you don't have the information that's required for them to be able to make a rational sound decision of whether or not you're a good investment.

Alex Ferrari 1:11:27
Now, frankly, it's your job. You're you sound very logical here, you sound like you're making sense. But I'm gonna I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here. I'm an artist, man, I am an artist, I, I just want to make a film with this actor. And I can't do it for less than 3 million, because my vision depends on $3 million. And I'm not going to worry about how to make money with the film. That's your job, not mine, as as a director and as the creative muse of this project. I don't want to get locked down with, you know, what actors are worth and what they're not worth internationally. I want the best person for the part now, but I also want the best person for the part in my opinion, who by the way, I've never made a movie before. So it that I've never made a feature, but I've seen it on TV. So it doesn't look that difficult. So I've seen a lot of behind the scenes, I could I could do what they do. I mean, it's not that hard. If there's green screen, I it's fine. So. So look I'm making I'm making a jest of this. But this conversation I'm sure you've had multiple times. I've been on the other side of this conversation earlier in my career, when I would do something I was that's that naive, let's not say that naive, that egocentric. And what I always tell people is like, Look, if you want to play in a very large sandbox, there are different rules and a larger sandbox. So like my last movie I did for the thau, a few 1000 bucks, which you saw that sandbox I have all I know you said you love that Thank you, thank you so much. I know you love the that sandbox, I can do what ever I want cast to ever I want to whatever story I want not worry about international sales, not worry about my cast, I could cast whoever I want. Because the VAT the cost is very low. It's kind of like building a shed in the back, or $10 million mansion. You could do whatever you want with that shit, that's going to cost you five grand of your own money. But when you're asking for 10 million to build that mansion, that by the way, you've never built a mansion before. It doesn't work. Is that a fair assessment?

Franco Sama 1:13:48
Yeah, well, that's exactly and you're right. I hear that all the time. And, you know, you're right Is it is it is is a vast difference? Because the question becomes at that point, well, what's at stake in your, in your scenario with your 3000 $5,000 film, that's what's at stake, right? That's, that's your world, that's you want to grieve that world. And as a filmmaker, I encourage people to do that, because that's when you learn how to do all of this, right? Because the process that you'd have to wait that you went through for a $5,000 film is no different than the $5 million, we're still gonna go through the same process. The difference is that the stakes are higher. Right. And now, in your scenario, a you're the only person person that you're accountable to, or the few people that might have helped you, financially to get to them. In my world, you got investors who are going to be breathing down your back, and they're not only going to be breathing down your back, but you know, you if you if you mess up on a two or $3,000 film, you can recover from that and go make another $5,000 film and then 10,000 if you mess up, especially if it's your first one, if you miss up on a two and a half million dollar film and you can only recover $250,000

Alex Ferrari 1:15:00
You're not making that mansion, you're in

Franco Sama 1:15:02
your deep, deep trouble number one and number two. Now, what inevitably happens is that same filmmaker Gets a bright vision for the next film. And they're, they want to go embark on getting number two done, right. And they, and they're so buried in number one, that there are a million and a half dollars behind. Right. And then on top of it, you got the whole distribution thing that happens on top of that, so. So where I'm coming from is this is what I tell people, there's sort of two paths you can take, when it comes to this business. There's what I call the pitching, sell. And then there's the DIY, right? The pitch and sell. I know writers that are great writers that just want to write it just want to write, write, write, write, write, and they write really well. And they're out asking people like me, hey, do you want to buy my script? Right? No, I don't want to buy your script. Because I don't, I don't buy scripts, I make movies. Like there's a difference, right? So if but there are people who do buy scripts, and you can make a living, and I know lots of folks are doing probably due to that make a living writing scripts for other people to go knock yourself up. And once that check clears, they're good, they don't care what happens to that project. And they'll because they got 10 more behind it, or 20 more behind it. So that's one avenue, the world that I live in, is to produce your own material, and maintain both the creative control over it, because you'll lose that the heartbeat. Otherwise, maintain the creative control and maintain the financial control so that you're the rights holder, to your story, you wrote it, you own it, and it stays that way, throughout the whole thing. So you can have the reap the benefits. If you go down that route, there's a whole nother set of responsibility. It's like going from the minor leagues into the Olympics, the training is different. You know, yeah, yeah, you have, the training is different. You can't, you can't, you can't mix one up with the other. So if you're going to go play softball with your friends, it's one thing if you're going to go try out for the Olympic team, that's a whole different way of operating. So and that's what happens is a lot of people get stuck in the transition. You know, I've got a lot of filmmakers that come to me, and they've made a couple of short films, right? When they, you know, they, they paid 2000 bucks. And, you know, they they did a great job. And they're winning awards. And it's great. I love that, because I think that shows a lot of character, right? The same time, I know people who come to me and they've made 12 shorts, and I'm like, stop making shorts, like, like we get it. Like, with all of the time and energy and money that you're putting into all of these shorts, you can be making a feature that you can sell. But But my my point is that there's a mentality around that experience, especially if it's their first time on set. And now all their friends are there and they get to boss everybody around and they get to be the big boss and the Big Cheese, and they sit in their director chair. And, you know, they're

Alex Ferrari 1:18:07
playing the part, right playing the part to play the part

Franco Sama 1:18:11
they walk away from, but then they think that when they go to a movie for 2 million bucks, it's going to be the same thing except bigger. And it's not the same. Same thing, and no, you can't bring your buddy out of film school to be your dp. Do you know what I mean? No. Or to do your budget? No, at that level, when you're talking about millions of dollars, you have to build a team. And when I tell these guys is when you made that short film, you probably didn't do it alone, right? You brought in a dp and a first ad and a script supervisor or whatever you had to bring in, you needed to build an infrastructure around you so that you could direct that film. Well, in my world, I do the exact same thing, except we do it in the business. And I surround people with the people that they need to build their business team so that they can go out and properly the keyword raise the funding to be able to make the movie that they envision and then we go out and put together the team of professionals that are going to support and surround them so that they that they can make the best movie possible that we all have the same stake and because we want to see it get distributed and sold and return investment because if you can do that, especially on their first film, if that should be the goal. The goal shouldn't be to win the Oscar on the first round although that would be lovely. The goal shouldn't be to Sundance box office right

Alex Ferrari 1:19:39
Sundance can South by Southwest yes yes.

Franco Sama 1:19:41
I have people say actually say to me Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna bring it to Sundance like they're gonna walk in and Sundance is gonna go come on in here. This is a screen open right there. I just go shoot it right up there. Hold on. Let me go get a couple of people to watch this video. Would you

Alex Ferrari 1:19:54
like some popcorn sir? Would you like some popcorn and we can massage your feet while you watch it sir. Is that is that yeah, that's not the way it works. You're trying to basically you're just mitigating risk, you're mitigating risk, because the higher the number goes the budget, the more risk you have at that thing, and the studio's do it all the time. That's why now it's just reboot after IP after, you know, established properties, because they don't, at $200 million, you can't risk. It's very difficult, like avatar was the last time I saw a studio take a $500 million risk on a new IP, but it was James Cameron, and he could do it. That's why they're, that's why it's always reboot, reboot, reboot IP, ip ip, because they can't, they can't risk that much.

Franco Sama 1:20:36
And even then, about I don't know when this happened, but I remember it's good. It probably been a good 10 years now. There was a time when there was never any such thing as seeing two Studios on one film, right? Everybody was competing for universal web. Now you see them working together. But for that reason, because if they're going to if they're going to work on $150 million project, why don't we put up 75 million each and share the risk and utilize our resources, instead of fighting with each other one, we join each other and make this thing a huge hit, you know, and that's what's been happening now is that they're they they've started to smarten up and

Alex Ferrari 1:21:19
azeema. And then there's, and then there's cats. Which I can't wait to see it. I'm dying. But I mean, I am dying to see only if it's inside, sir, because obviously we're not allowed out anymore. But no, but I keep telling this to people, I've never seen it. I don't want to bash anybody. But I mean, it's when you have a once in a generation, it's a once in a generation situation where you have 100 million plus studio film that fails at such a just a Goliath of a failure. It doesn't happen. And on paper, that movie had everything going for it. It was a it was an IP that world renowned, the best how multiple Oscar winners. And the behind the scenes is the director, the writers, the actors, this the visual effect, it had every thing going for it. And it obviously was a colossal failure in many, many ways, was like the

Franco Sama 1:22:27
opposite of the producers. But it was the opposite. But it's interesting, because it brings up a really important point that I that I've talked about for 10 years now, I have a I have a phrase that I use, I say to filmmakers, when they come to me, they have a lot of expectations, right. And that's understandable. But there's a reality to all of this too. So because it costs a lot of money to do this, you know, this is this, nobody's working for free here, this is a business. So there's a lot of money at stake, there's a lot of hard at stake, a lot of stress. But at the end of the day for people who are willing to go through the process and develop a film properly and figure all that stuff out in, in my world, I'll help them I'll take them by the hand and carry them through that process, which is an arduous process, especially if they've never done it before. But I say to them, you can do everything, right, like literally everything right from day one, you have a beautiful script, that's like top shelf script, you can go out there and make a shoot a gorgeous film, beautiful, you can go into the editing room. And you know, because you could lose everything right there, the whole thing could fall apart. But assuming that assuming that you don't, and then you come out on the other side, and you've got a beautiful piece of art to be able to display. What I tell people is no matter what we do together as a team, or whoever's involved. At the end of the day, there's only one thing that's going to ultimately determine the success or the failure of your film. And it's the film. No, stop.

Alex Ferrari 1:24:01
It's no, it's everything else. But the story is

Franco Sama 1:24:06
not the writer. It's not the acting. It's not the sound. It's not the lighting, it's not the music, it's all of it. And that catch is such a perfect example. You know, because anyone in their right mind who might have been given an opportunity to invest in that movie would have been crazy not to do it.

Alex Ferrari 1:24:23
Of course, like I said on paper. It's perfect. Yeah.

Franco Sama 1:24:29
But but that's why that's why it's such a great example of what I'm saying is because it was perfect until it wasn't. And now people are you know, hurting from that. I mean experience

Alex Ferrari 1:24:42
that's, but the thing was, so if we analyze cats for a second, that's the beat. Let's beat up cats a little bit more because God knows it hasn't been beat up enough. There was a risk involved that no one took into consideration and this is the best minds in Hollywood, Oscar winning minds as well as the best I miss universe. There's no slouch. As far as making movies is concerned. No one. No one, everyone has underestimated the risk of the CG. Everyone assumed that the visual effects were going to be solid because they had a great company doing it. But no one took in consideration pushing the visual effects artists to fast and unrealistic deadlines, constant revisions, no one took all of that into consideration. Because that director who is a fantastic filmmaker, from my experience did not have he's not a CG guy. He's not James Cameron, he's not David Fincher, he's not someone who understands that world and understands timelines as though he was, you know, he did the King's speech and, you know, more, you know, those kind of films. So I think that was no one took that in consideration. And it just felt because I talked, I saw the talk the actress, I saw the actors afterwards, you're just like, we were on a set in green screen. Like, we had no idea we were going to look like that. Like, we were good. I worked 10 days, I had a ball. It was fantastic. You know, you got it. But no one under no one ever did the test to go, hey, maybe these guys look creepy. I've said this. I've said it's the best review ever of cats. And I'm gonna say it again, because I've said it on the show before but I can't stop saying it. The cats is the worst thing to happen to cats and dogs.

Franco Sama 1:26:27
Oh, that's funny. That's good. That's good. And it's probably true. Oh, God.

Alex Ferrari 1:26:34
All right. So let's, let's get off the couch for a second. Now, I wanted to ask you a couple more questions if you have some time. So because I know you're a busy man. We we've talked a little bit off air about this, and I just did a podcast recently about this where there is not only is there a lot of predatory people and scam artists in the distribution space and in the sales rep space. But there is oddly enough in the film financing space, which is a space you live in. And now with the episode and I'll put it in the show notes, which was about the minimum guarantee scam, where now you go, you know, to someone who's pretending to be someone like yourself, and says, Hey, we will package the movie for you, we will get an mg a minimum guarantee from x or these distributors who we have all the connections for all we need is 40 to 60,000, maybe 80,000 upfront to do this work for you. And I just got off the phone with a poor filmmaker who got and it was like a million plus film, dollar film and he got screwed for 40 or $50,000 out of this one of these companies. And I wanted to just throw it at you to say what can filmmakers look out for? Because, I mean, obviously you and I would smell that coming from a mile away. But a lot of young filmmakers or even people who are just not familiar of this side of the business, what can they look out for? What are some some signs that we can kind of protect yourself from these, these these predators?

Franco Sama 1:28:03
Well, you know, because I've been doing this for 20 plus years, I have to say, I've become very jaded around all of that. Because I am at the point where I literally don't believe a word anybody says to me a great

Alex Ferrari 1:28:22
until, until the check clears until the check clears.

Franco Sama 1:28:27
That's the baseline. The baseline is when they say to me, I'm working on this film, and I got it's a million dollar budget. And I have 300,000. I'm thinking No, you know. So let's start there.

Alex Ferrari 1:28:41
Let's prove to me that you have the 300,000.

Franco Sama 1:28:45
Yeah. And even then they scam you because that I was telling somebody the other day that I had a guy that needed $750,000. And we were looking for proof of funds. And what he did was he's delivered me a a redacted like a like a Charles Schwab type of investment account. certificate. Sure. And it was real. It was real. And it had but it had the name in the social security number and all that redacted. So you couldn't see that. But I could see the balance of something like $6 million in there. And he and this was a long time ago. This is years ago. And he said, See, this is my guy, he's got $6 million, so 750 might be a problem. So I went with it. I haven't run around town tell anybody I had $750,000 in the movie, only come to find out that although the proof of funds, paperwork was legit. There was just a friend of his that did him a favor and gave him a piece of paper to use. The guy had no intention of putting any money in the movie. There was nothing connecting the money that I could see to the film that we were trying to put together. So they're the we used to have the phrase prove the money And I've had to change that now to move the money

Alex Ferrari 1:30:04
Into an account that we all agree on. Yeah. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Franco Sama 1:30:21
We'll establish the account you put the money in. And unfortunately, it's come to that. Because if they're not willing to actually move funds

Alex Ferrari 1:30:31
Into an escrow account, by the way, that's an escrow account. That's not like a personal account for you. It's an escrow account.

Franco Sama 1:30:36
Place to tuck Did anybody can touch it? Right, but just to the physical moving movement of the foot of the funds, now we have a basis for a conversation. Even then, that's all it is. Right? Because they can take it back out. But at least if it's there, now I have a basis for a conversation to engage. So you know, what I tell in this kind of ties into your your hypothetical scenario about the filmmaker, you know, that was making the first movie is that really, what I did at the beginning was I got on IMDB Pro, back then this was 20 years ago. And I found a filmmaker event randomly, who I believed sort of when somebody who I felt like I looked at a couple of them. But I started taking people out to lunch, I started meeting people on the phone. Now I was in a unique position because I had investors. But I didn't have any projects. I didn't even know what that meant. I didn't even know what the requirements were, I didn't know any of that. So I went out, I found this executive producer, who my deal was, I will bring my investors to you. In exchange, I want to be a part of this, of all of this, I want to learn. Yeah, I want to learn, I want I want, I want money, I want to credit, I want to build something. So I wasn't in a unique situation. But it worked. Because by being in those rooms and listening to those meetings, and actively participating in all of these conversations, I got to a point where after a while, I thought I got this, you know, I can do this now on my own, I feel competent enough and being able to do all that. And I had watched her make her own mistakes. So I knew what not to do in a lot of cases. So I think today, you know, it's hard to do, I'm not suggesting for a moment, it's easy, but I am saying it because it happens, because I'm on the receiving side of that now. So a lot of the times I'll get these random emails and stuff, especially like on LinkedIn. People say, I'm looking for an executive producer. So for me, executive producer is code for money. So when somebody says to me, I'm looking for an executive producer, my response is how much you know, I'm looking for an executive producer, how much do you need, because that you know, who you kidding. But but at the same time, you know, being able to partner or be mentored by or find some way of getting to be around the people who are doing it and are doing it well, and who are trustworthy, you know, and have who have good names and reputations in the industry is really a good way to get started. Because you know, you were joking. But the truth is, most of these people that I meet, they are on the creative side, and they don't want to do this stuff. They don't want to learn this stuff, but they don't want. And, and those people aren't the ones I'm interested in, you know, I because I don't want to work with them either. You know, I want to work with people who want to work hard figure this thing out and do it and do it the right way. And I want to is more of a collaboration at that point. You know. So that's, that's really what you have to do. And because if you have a foundation like that, when that guy comes and shows up, and says, Hey, give me 50k. And this is what I'll do for you. You have two or three point people like me, and you know, that have that kind of experience to be able to pick up the phone or shoot an email and go, Hey, you know, and I got probably 10 of those people out there in the world that I have a policy with, if you have a problem, if you have an issue if you just want me to look over an agreement or something I'm having to take a look at in order to protect those filmmakers, and I'll tell you, but they have to build that relationship with those people. One of my biggest pet peeves is when somebody just shoots me an email with a pitch package.

Alex Ferrari 1:34:49
I get them I get them and I'm not a financier. How does that work? Do your homework.

Franco Sama 1:34:55
I got I mostly got two or three of them today. Right now. There's no introduction, there's no nice to get to know you. There's no Hey, blah, blah, blah. They just literally send you this long email. And then, uh, and then five attachments with their script, and their pitch deck, and all of this. And I'm like, Hello. Nice to meet you. Like, what happened to a report? What happened to earning?

Alex Ferrari 1:35:26
I'm not a piece of one. I'm not a piece of meat, sir. I have a heart. I have a soul try to get to know me, Franco.

Franco Sama 1:35:35
It's true. It's like it's it's etiquette. It's courtesy. It's professional with diplomatic. It's like, because because that's what I'm attracted to. Right. I'm attracted to commitment. People who make commitment, you know, people who are willing to go all in and make commitment. And there's a lot of people who say that, that they're all they make commitment, but they're not really there. And I'm, I'm interested in people who are willing to go all in and make commitment. But I'm also interested only in people. Look, I say this all the time. I always say this is great projects. And shitty people pardon my French. Right? And then there's shitty projects and great people. Yes, is great projects and great people. I want the great projects with the great people, because even if they're shitty projects, but they're great people, we can go find another project, it's not so shitty, and we can still work together. Right? But people is the problem, then I'm out. And anybody who feels that it's okay to bombard anybody's email yours or mine with just puking out all this information without at least making the effort to establish some kind of rapport is out in my book, ie they might have a great project, and I might pass it out might be the next big thing. And I lost. But you know what I would have, it would have been a nightmare. And I'm not interested in that.

Alex Ferrari 1:37:15
And I've been saying this for years as well, if filmmakers do not understand, look, I'll go back. The problem, I feel that a lot of filmmakers in general have it is not their fault. They have been taught this old system from film schools and by Hollywood, that you got to do this, this, this and this to get your movie made. And you don't have to worry about the business will take care of it for you. And but that's what that's that's the message that's been sent out at film schools and sportsmen sent out in the industry. Why? Because it benefits the industry, it's that's how the business works. That's Hollywood accounting, they don't want you to know too much about what goes on behind. They don't want you to know how the sausage is made. They don't want you in the room where the decisions are made. If I may go Hamilton, they don't want any of that. Because once you are informed, you become harder to deal with, because now they can't scam you. So I think any filmmaker in today's world that does not understand the entire process, even at a rudimentary level, you know, understand what the DP is doing. And also understand what the distributor is doing. At a simplistic level you are do you're going to get taken advantage of in one way, shape or form from somewhere. So you need to understand the entire ecosystem, the entire process as much as possible. Look what you did. When you were first starting out, you're like I want to learn I want to learn everything I want to know about everything. You know, I'm not going to hire you to dp my film. I know that, but you but you know what a good dp is. And you know, when a good dp is trying to pull one on you because they want something cool for their real. And they're not making their hours and they're not making their pages because I need to get this one shot. That's nice. But we need to move it along.

Franco Sama 1:38:49
Yeah. Am I right? Yeah. Yeah, you're 100%. Right. And you know, one of the things I'm often quoted as saying is that film school teaches you how to make a movie, but who's going to teach you how to get a movie made? So those are two different things. And it is my opinion, based on experience that film schools literally, like you just alluded to, they don't want you to know the stuff that I teach people, because they're gonna scare these guys away. They're gonna scare them away. So what happens is these these people go out and spend 30 4050, whatever. $1,000 on film school, a year a year. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm not taking that away in terms of the value from an artistic, creative perspective. But then they come, they get and they graduate, then they come knocking on my door. And they're like, Dude, what do I do? Like, I don't even know step one. I don't even know where to start. And so that's actually one of the reasons why I initially I started why created the development program is because it occurred to me that these are really talented people. They have just spent all this money and they don't even know Step one, they need to be educated, somebody has to pick up with film school left off and say, Look, let me show you how this works. Let me at least explain you said the basics. Let me at least explain it to you. So that you understand the concepts of the basic concepts of financing, equity, debt, tax, credit, financing, distribution, casting, every element legal pose, really post production levels, budgeting, scheduling, all of the stuff that that they just don't have, they don't they don't see it in relationship that leads to actually going out and raising money and putting funds together. So I think it's a big void. It's been great for me in the sense that, you know, I've been able to build a whole branch of my, my company, on based on educating people, they fit into that category, and they love it. They love it. And but that's the point. If they don't love it. I don't want them there.

Alex Ferrari 1:41:08
No, no, absolutely. Well, because look, it's

Franco Sama 1:41:10
at recourse, I want them to be excited, I have this one couple I talked to you know, I do this on Skype, because most people don't live. And it literally every Monday, we can't, we can't wait to sit in front of our computers and talk to each other. Because we just know that for an hour and a half, we're gonna have a lot of fun, while they're learning how to do this. And they're so excited and animated. And it just gives me such a joy to be able to work with them. And that's what the people want to invest my time and energy into.

Alex Ferrari 1:41:40
Right? No question and but the thing is, and that's where a lot of filmmakers get caught up in is I've said there's a lot of times, Hollywood is really good at selling the sizzle, not so much the steak, but the sizzle, man, they're the best in the world at the sizzle. And film schools, you know, they sell the sexy part of this process. It's this it's sexy to to work with the actor to work with the actors to look play with the camera and the lenses and, and editing and all that it's really sexy to kind of be the creative part. But when you're done with that product, it's like it's really sexy to bake. Like, you know, like all those baking shows like, Oh, look at these cool things I'm making. It's all great. They're like this cake that, you know, explodes and does all this. It's fantastic. Now how are you going to make a business out of that product? Yeah. And that's the thing that nobody nobody talks about. Because that's not the sexy part. I love that part. I think it is the sexy parts. It's more exciting. It's actually one of the most exciting part marketing and the business side is excites me a lot. You know, being a film intrapreneur so I really love I love that part of it. But most filmmakers just want to sit back, go to the red carpet, sign the autographs, hang out with the actors and and play the role and play the role but then play the role at a $3,000 budget don't play the role on a $3 million budget.

Franco Sama 1:43:02
Your own money. Yeah, don't come. Don't come to us. Yeah, and I do I feel that same way like so because I am that like, I love that. I love it. I love to develop a process. I love watching people like go on and go oh my god, that's such great information. I feel so good. Because what happens is by the time we finish what my my job with first and second time filmmakers, yes, education, but empowerment. Like, I want them to be able to go out into that world and have those meetings and sitting around those people, and really have a good solid foundation and a confidence about them and err confidence above them that they can sit down. And if they happen to meet somebody on a subway or a restaurant, that's and they spark up a conversation about they're making a movie and the guy happened to a woman happens to be an investor and they're curious. I want them to be able to sit there and hold their own and have a conversation. They may get to a point where they go, you know what I better shut my mouth and have Franco talk to these people. Because I don't want to say the wrong thing. But they but they want them to be able to be empowered to be able to be confident enough to be able to initiate because when you're talking to investors, people, it's a different language. And this is what I tell people. People say to me all the time, what's the number one thing that will make us do well, when it comes to raising money? And I always say and I've said it, you've heard me say it a million times. They go out too soon. They're not ready. They're not prepared. They're not in a position to be talking about that. And part of the reason is because they're pitching story to money, people. It doesn't compete. Yeah, pitching story, stories. Critical. It's important. But an investor doesn't know what you're talking about goes right over their head, and they're gonna walk away and go what a frickin nutjob that guy asked me for $2 million. And I got nothing. I got a story,

Alex Ferrari 1:44:54
isn't it an equivalent of me going to the bank and going I want a small business loan and I'm gonna put up a bakery. And all I talk about is the ingredients, the the fond on the how it's layered how many you know, the cupcakes and how beautiful that that's all I talk about is the product. I have no understanding about how I'm gonna make money with this. But that's the equivalent. It's the equivalent you can't talk store your creative to business people, it doesn't work that way.

Franco Sama 1:45:20
And in what, in what other business in the world? Is that? Okay? Why is it okay for us? Like, that's the part that bothers me. You know, I think I might have told you this before, but a guy come up to me after one of my one of my seminars. And he says to me, I'm so frustrated. He says, I've had five investors, I pitched my movie to five investors, and every one of them shut me down. He says, What am I doing wrong? And the first thing I said was, you had five investors Really? Because No, you didn't. You might have had one or maybe two, but you didn't have five. So let's start there. All right, cuz there's a lot of this going on out there. And three of those a PS. Alright, so I didn't have fun that you feel any better. You didn't lose. Then, but if you even had one, like I said, What are you saying? Like, what if five people walked away and said, No, what are you saying? Because maybe something you saying is making them say no. And I said, Give me your elevator pitch. You pitch the story. It sounds great. Now what? Usually Well, that's it. And I'm like, That's it? Like, that's alright. Yeah. And how much you need 2.5 million. Really? Okay, that's cool. Um, so you have, you know, I just think you should do me a favor. And I love playing this. I said, Do me a favor. I gave my business card. I said, Can you email me? He goes, Yeah, yeah. I said, No, no, no, no, your script, I don't want you to script. I said, I want you to eat me your budget, the $2.5 million budget, and the guy's face just draw. And I said, What's the matter? He says, Oh, I don't have a budget. I said, You're already spoken to five investors, asking for two and a half million dollars. And you know, you don't even have you don't even know if it actually is 2 billion, like the divorce

Alex Ferrari 1:47:14
Or schedule, or schedule or caste,

Franco Sama 1:47:18
Or, or proposal or anything. He's literally pitching story to money people, and it doesn't compute, it's a disconnect. So what I do is I spend time educating people on how to speak to investors, not just where to find them, how to find them, and what to do with them. But what what to say to them, or more importantly, what not to say to them. And that way, whether I'm in the room or not, because more often than not, I'm not, I am to help support them. They can keep up like they're in it. They're not sitting all in the corner going I hope Franco closes this guy. You know what I mean? They're like, this is my movie, man. And I'm here to sell it, you know, and I'm empowered. Because I know, I'm ready. Hit me with the questions. I've got the answers. And if I don't, this guy will help me. That's what you want to do. And that's why I'm saying partner partner with, you know, with people who do have that base of experience, and don't try to go along.

Alex Ferrari 1:48:14
I know this has been an epic conversation so far. And I know we could talk for another three or four hours. But I do want to ask you one last question, because I think it's very important that we talk about this. What are your thoughts? What are your thoughts on the changing world of the film market? Because you and I have gone to AFM many times, I know you go to Cannes and all the many other film markets this year alone, I think it's going to be very interesting. They already zipties already got canceled. I can't I don't see how can is going to be able to go which is insane to say out loud. But I know Berlin just is it just happened or is finishing happening or something. But I heard I've heard through reports that was pretty empty. And the Chinese Chinese market the guys were not there. So where do you see before the Coronavirus showed up? It was already starting to go It was starting to the world has changed. How do you feel that these filled markets are are going to what place? Do you see these film markets going because it is built on a time of the 70s 80s 90s and early 2000s. That's when the markets really were kind of in their prime, where now there's so many other options. I'm just curious on what part they are going to play in this new ecosystem that we're moving forward with. I think they still have a place in the in the ecosystem. And there's things you can do in a market you just can't do anywhere else. But I'd love to hear it. I'd love to hear your point of view.

Franco Sama 1:49:44
Yeah, it's because just like in any other industry face to face, you know, is the is the best, most

Alex Ferrari 1:49:51
mask mask, the mask mask, the mask mask.

Franco Sama 1:49:55
It's definitely the most productive way to conduct business, right and so That's what the hype is around all of the markets, right? Because it's exciting. You get to travel around the world, you get to meet people, a lot of times you're meeting people that you see year after year. So you reconnecting with people. That's one of the things that I love about about the market, particularly FM, because it's right here. And but I think that there's, I think that there's been a lot of this stems from the first conversation we had about the purge that's about to take place around distribution, because that's what the markets are for. Right. It's buying and selling and, and, and promoting film. And so if the, if the core of that is unstable, which it is, which is what I think the purge is going to at least address, I don't know, if it's going to necessarily rectify it, then that foundation is shaken. And then you add the Coronavirus thing on top of it, where people are going to just be gone, nobody's going to show up. And I think that that's all going to contribute, I think it's going to go way bigger than just distributors having sales, people having to wake up to a new reality of the way they have to conduct themselves in just in terms of their internal business models, but on a global on a global scale. And I think it's going to be a hit, I think it's gonna, I think the virus is going to be the biggest part of it. I think, like I said, next year, or the year after that it will recover. But it'll never be the same. It's never going to be the same. And I think in a lot of ways that might be a good thing. Because, you know, the the the the traffic is down, and the crowds are different. Like it's a different.

Alex Ferrari 1:51:46
Oh, and there was a lot of filmmakers. It was a lot of filmmakers this year at AFM a lot of filmmakers as opposed to a lot of distributors.

Franco Sama 1:51:54
Right. And here's the thing, there's a lot of filmmakers going AFM for the wrong reasons, you know,

Alex Ferrari 1:52:00
Selling story selling their story.

Franco Sama 1:52:03
Yeah, they're walking in with pitch decks, trying to get distributors to come up with their project before they even have any money or they have any, any they haven't even done any development. Sometimes they have. Right, so. So that's what's happening. In my opinion, it's turning into sort of a, you know, a money pit, you know, because it's great, I love it, because I get to go and see my friends every year. But also I get to meet these people from all around the world. And a lot of the filmmakers that I work with, are from around the world. And my relationship is built completely on a on a on a computer Skype. So it might be the one time in three years, I'm actually going to meet people that I've been working with all along and be able to sit down and have a drink or a meal with. So from a social aspect. I think it's a very powerful place. But from a business perspective, it's just starting to read every year, it's just changing more and more and more. I mean, I do think that at AFM specifically, it was probably a good move to kind of restrict who can come in, because I know there. I remember the years when crazy. We used to run through bikinis and trying to, you know, all the crazy stuff. And I do think that that sort of took away, it was fun for a minute, you know, but I think it took away from the seriousness of the business at hand for serious filmmakers and buyers. But I, I also think that it's kind of gone a little too far now. And people just like you feel like you can't even move, you know, around. So so. So I don't know, it's hard to say I don't know what the answer is. I do think that this business, this industry as a whole is extraordinarily resilient. We've gone through so much. I mean, all the way back to the writer strike, and, you know, everything that what we're what we're saying, I mean, Jesus. Yeah, it's a resilient business. And like I say, I think that we've had enough lead time now, as indeed people that we've stablished, who we are out there in the world, I don't think we're going to have to, we're going to suffer any more or less than anybody else. But I do think it's the kind of thing that's just gonna have to play itself out and see what the repercussions are of this lack of physical attendance. And try to re maneuver away to be able to continue to manage do business, on the global market in terms of sales and distribution, without necessarily getting on a plane and in going to brands. You know,

Alex Ferrari 1:54:40
Right? I mean, that's nice, though. I mean, it's nice to go to France, and they can it's a fun time.

Franco Sama 1:54:47
And that's what so that's what that's what makes it such an exciting business to be in is to be able to travel around the world or the country and be able to explore all of this is literally your job. It's part of your Your job, you know, so that that is great. And I think that that will return. After this thing settles out,

Alex Ferrari 1:55:10
it's gonna be just it's gonna transform like everything else like everything settles in after after VHS after DVD after streaming. It there's just different evolutions, and it's just happening faster and faster and faster and faster nowadays, everything.

Franco Sama 1:55:24
We all thought it was gonna be a catastrophe and life was over as we knew it, and it was in a way, but then it got bad, you know, or something new came along, and, and so I think we're, we are all going to be fine. I think the most important thing for everybody right now is to just really stay focused on the present, like what's in front of us the projects that we're working on, and make the commitment to the thing that's right in front of us, you know, I've got two or three right now, you know, to be able to focus on I've got projects coming in from different directions. And I don't want to, I don't want to, I don't want to shift the way I do things, because what I'm doing has been working for me and for the backers. So I don't want to change that until our lesson until I be it becomes a situation where I'm forced to, in order to adapt to whatever this is that's going to be coming down the road.

Alex Ferrari 1:56:18
Franco, this has been an epic conversation as I knew it would be. This is going to be a mandatory lesson for anybody in the indie film hustle tribe in the film entrepreneur tribe, because this is a wealth of information that you've spit out some amazing knowledge bombs today. So I do truly appreciate it. Now, I warn you my last thing I'm going to say, Be careful what you wish for. How do people find you, sir? your home, your home and your home address and phone number would be best?

Franco Sama 1:56:48
Yeah. What maybe the computer and I'll show you my building. This year, I've my summer co films headquarters has moved, very proud to say, We are now on the lot at Los Angeles studios, which is downtown LA, great little Independent Film Studio. So I'm very happy to be there. It's great to be on a lot to be in that environment and be in that creative environment every single day. So that's our where we physically are at La center studios downtown. But the best way to reach me is really just directly through email. But there's two ways you can get to me is my website, of course, which is just summitgofilms.com. And I do recommend people go kind of take a look, they can see my all the films I've done. But also they can see the films that are in development and in the projects that we're working on moving forward. And my email, I'm happy to give it out,

Alex Ferrari 1:57:51
Be careful, just be careful.

Franco Sama 1:57:53
I always do it. And my email is simple. It's just [email protected]. And so by all means people are welcome to either email me through the website, or email me directly if they have any particular questions or anything. They would like to run by me if anybody's interested in the development program, I can send them information on that. Or I do a one on one six week course that they can inquire about to most of that informations on the website. But otherwise, they can just reach out to me and it might take me a moment to get back to people so I asked him to be patient because you're absolutely right. You expect a good influx of of emails and I welcome them. Sure it just might take some time to kind of get get my cut my way through them.

Alex Ferrari 1:58:45
So then this make sure you send when you email send your script your pitch deck, do not introduce yourself and just tell them your story. That's that's that's the protocol. That's the protocol.

Franco Sama 1:58:54
Not even hello, not even interested in Hello,

Alex Ferrari 1:59:01
Franco man, it has been an absolute pleasure. We have to do this at least more than once every two years. because things are things are changing so rapidly. And we are on the front line. So I do appreciate you brother, thank you so much for doing what you do and trying to help as many filmmakers as you are, man. Thanks again.

Franco Sama 1:59:16
Thank you Alex. I appreciate it as well take care.

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BPS 258: How To Shoot A Feature Film In Two Days With Grant Pichla

Today on the show we have a director who shot a time travel feature film in two days, his name is Grant Pichla, and his film is called Making UP Time. Making Time’s 110 pages were shot in just two crazy, fast-paced days, separated by seven months and a house renovation.

After traveling back in time, a divorced workaholic must repeat his past footsteps in order to return to an unaltered present but struggles when it means re-proposing to his ex-wife. How’d they shot​ a full movie in 2 days? This documentary series explains it all.

This remarkable documentary is available on Indie Film Hustle TV. Grant and I discuss the insanity of shooting a film in two days, how he came up with this crazy idea, and what it took to put this beast together.

Enjoy my conversation with Grant Pichla. 

Right-click here to download the MP3

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Alex Ferrari 2:42
I'd like to show Grant Pichla man thanks You so much for coming on the show, brother.

Grant Pichla 5:01
Hey, Alex, thank you so much for having me.

Alex Ferrari 5:03
I appreciate it. Man, you, you reached out to me that we've been trying to get this done for a while now. So I do appreciate your patience. But your story is extremely interesting about how you made your movie. And we're gonna get to it in a minute. But first, how did you get started in the film business?

Grant Pichla 5:20
Well, I think I got started probably the way most boring story start. So I was a kid, Junior High High School, making films with my friends shooting stuff for sports teams editing them. And it wasn't till I got to college, where I thought like, maybe this is something I should really focus on and go kind of all in on, so to speak. And so when I graduated from Central Michigan University, I started a grad school program. And I knew after two years, either a, you end up writing like an 80 page thesis or be you go for some sort of production. And against some of the teachers like, wise words, we said, we're not only going to do a production, but we're gonna do a feature and eventually had 100 people involved. It was in 20 locations. It was a massive script. So back when Amazon Studios are still a thing I had tracked down like all these scripts, that could be potential that we could shoot low budget, reached out to a writer got the rights to just shoot it for a student project and turn out being awesome. But 3034 shoot day schedule, and we came in at 33. So it was a very like, like, how do I say a streamline long is streamlined, but it was a lengthy kind of typical production? Yeah, so like, 30 some days, basically.

Alex Ferrari 6:48
And what was the budget of that film? That I believe was $6,000.33 days for six grand? Didn't nobody get paid? No, we are all students. We are all volunteers. It was just it was it was basically a learning experience. Yes. Yeah. Got and did you directed that film?

Grant Pichla 7:07
Yeah, it was, it was definitely the biggest undertaking I've ever had. Like today, it was just, it was very large, but never no egos on sets, everyone. By the end, we felt like we were so so much better than our first shoots, I was just a very positive experience. And it kind of leads into like where I am now. Because when it comes to shooting a movie in two days, for example, back then in school, you're like, yeah, if we just spread these days out, we've got time. That's the one thing we have in college, and we don't need money, but we can figure out windows of opportunities for here for this and that. But with making time, like, I'm currently employed full time, I have a side business, my wife and I shoot weddings. And then at the time of doing making time, my wife and I were in the middle of renovating our whole house DIY. And we were on like year, two out of three years of working on it. And we were about to do this huge kitchen renovation. So basically, my time was very limited. So it was like, if I'm going to go for a feature again, there's no way it could have been like 30 days, you know, like, I couldn't imagine taking 15 weekends to shoot a film while there's way more important life stage things happening, you know.

Alex Ferrari 8:24
So So you mentioned making time tell us about this, this movie and the process of making how you got the idea and so on.

Grant Pichla 8:33
So making time is a feature length, time travel adventure, romance, that is shot in just two crazy chaotic days, with those days being separated by seven months, and they House Renovation. So it was definitely the biggest gamble I've ever taken in my life because I going into it like there's no handbook that says, alright, this is what you need to know to shoot your first 61 pages on day one that just doesn't exist. So we went in feeling like a I hope this works. And B I also really hope all actors can come back in seven months and like nothing crazy happens. So it was every actor knew going in that this was like it was kind of gamble, but it's also very well thought out. So we knew kind of every pitfall that could happen before it came. But I'm I guess I'm getting off topic. So the story is Mason Hydra who was in Batman vs. Superman. Cast by Zack Snyder, pretty freaking awesome that he was willing to donate his time to our project. We were doing it just for the love of film, but it was also a great opportunity for him to just show off his stuff because, hey, it's a leading role, and how many people in the history of film can say I did 106 pages of dialogue in two days and probably have less than a dozen blooper moments. Like it's insane it's a performance of a lifetime is what I would call it. But like getting him on board, it's basically a shit now I'm gonna forget my logline now that we're right on the brand on the podcast, it's a workaholics scientist must complete his round trip to the past. But in order to return home basically must do all of his footsteps. I must fuck me Oh, I'm sorry. I'm totally ice in here.

Alex Ferrari 10:39
It's all good. It's like I get the idea. The idea of basically you know, you have to go back in time to do so it's it's a it's a it's a time travel movie at this point in the game. Yeah. So it's, you're making not only an indie movie, not only in two days, but you're also doing a time travel movie which time travel movies in general are not in the indie world other than primer Exactly. And but other than primer, I really don't remember there being a lot of this, this kind of filmmaking in the indie space. So it's a unique film. In that sense. That's probably one of the reasons it caught my eye so much, was that that vibe, and I've had a chance to kind of over I saw your trailer, and I've kind of had a chance to kind of look over the film. And I have to say, does have a vibe of of the most famous, the most famous time travel movie of all time, which is the Back to the Future. It has like that whole very cool energy to it. I'm assuming that's what you were going after?

Grant Pichla 11:42
Yeah, definitely. That was, it was like not the biggest inspiration in terms of right where the writing goes. But the feeling definitely that mixed with anything, Pixar mixed with pretty much anything Spielberg, a lot of it was, can we, what I was most interested in is if you did do this, and yeah, it's you know, it's science fiction, so it's fine. But what's more important is, if you went back in time, and it actually worked, the art and the inspirational, it would just be so just kind of unbelievable. And I wanted to capture that and then also capture, you know, the downfalls of the hero's journey and all those things, too. So definitely Spielberg hook was an inspiration for score. Yeah, picks ours up on the family, man. Even with the feel good ending, we did a little bit of whatever, we can move forward, but yeah, definitely that feel good vibe.

Alex Ferrari 12:44
Yeah. And that's kind of missing in today's world. There's not a lot of feel good movies anymore. I mean, they're even even Spielberg is not making feel good movies anymore. They're he's making, you know, heavy dramas at this point in his career. Occasionally, he'll do a Ready Player One like and you know, he hasn't done a fun fun movie in a while. And he's kind of set that hole. And then Zoo Meccas, and all those kind of guys, they they're not doing those kind of movies, I think we missed them in the 80s, that 80s, kind of 80s and early 90s kind of films that just make you feel good when you watch. That's why we go back and watch those movies again. And like Back to the Future I can turn on right now. And just watch it while you watch all three of them. They're just so much fun, and you feel good afterwards. And there's adventure and all this kind of stuff. So it's really, really a great idea for your film. And I think it was very smart of you to align yourself with that vibe, as opposed to primer, which is a completely different kind of

Grant Pichla 13:46
Very dry. And what what I was the film I can't remember is it's a wonderful life. So like that was I told I knew going in, I want something that when the movie ends, and you get out of your seat to go home, you're smiling, you're not shaking, you're itching your head saying like did that how did the time what was the big twist? or How did it not like I don't get this or I don't get that I just wanted people I just wanted to bring bring a little bit of happiness into the world by the time you walk out of the theater. So right. Now, is that

Alex Ferrari 14:18
Or turn off your streaming? Yeah. Or as you switch over to Netflix or something? I know it's the world has changed, sir. The world has said. Now I thought was really cool about your idea is that you had a large piece of production value, which was an unfinished home. And a lot of people would just look at that as an unfinished home and other people would go and you of course said no, no, there's production value here. We could do something because the cost of doing what you would you eventually did would cost you a lot of money to you know, get a house, do what you did to it and then build it back up. I mean it but you just kind of piggybacked on your Your life, which is real good indie filmmaking move. So did that come up? Did you did the did the house? Start the idea?

Grant Pichla 15:12
Basically? Good question. Yeah. So I was originally inspired by like Victoria, which was shot in a day actually just shot in two and a half hours a single take, you know? And I was thinking like, what would it take to pull something off in a day, and I was trying to write a script based on that. And I actually had one finish, but I put it to the side when I started looking at our house. And I was just like, you know, this, maybe you're like, the coolest idea I ever had, like the dumbest. And thankfully, with my wife's blessing, like, Oh, my God, if I didn't have that, she was she was okay with us going, all right. We can't slow this House Renovation down. Because we don't have a usable sink. Right now, we don't have floor, we don't have like, there's so many things that are life, Canada that

Alex Ferrari 15:59
I've been there, I've been there.

Grant Pichla 16:01
But what that did mean for me is I got to write a script as fast as I can and go through the revision process as fast as I can get it really good really fast. And then try to start shooting in this house before it gets too far along. And we lose that. And I knew that. All right. So let's say we shoot all back to like, in two months from now, and then bring everyone back in like a year or whatever. Well, when you actually watch the film, and he goes back in time, and now he lands in this house is completely different. That sort of magic is what I wanted to capture. Like, that's the promise of the premise. And that is it's not us just like taking some picture frames down or hiding something. Like all like 30 boxes of cabinets are just laying on the floor. It's nothing but sub floor, the paintings 92 everything's just like, bear. That was something I really wanted to. And, of course, in that moment, we got to start going for wide shots and like really show we're not hiding stuff with zoom lenses. But yeah, that did kick off the movie. And I thought, okay, if a guy is going to go back in the past, who's the best guy to do that? Well, maybe he's doing all this time travel stuff. And he's a workaholic. And maybe he's getting divorced in the opening scene, and maybe goes back to the past. And he meets all of a sudden his younger girlfriend who used to be his wife now. And that would be a very interesting dynamic like seeing your old loved one even though you despise her now. And then what if you learned that night when all of your friends who are showing up who you've neglected are now patting you on the back because they're excited because you don't even know tonight's the night you invited them all over because you're gonna propose to her. So now he's got to propose to this woman who he despises in order to get back home or else the machine won't connect. So it's like, that creates the juxtaposition I guess.

Alex Ferrari 17:55
And when does the killer robot come back? A robot killer robots? No Armageddon What's going on? Now? no space time continuum. I mean, you're gonna just make the whole world universe explode.

Grant Pichla 18:10
Now that's the thing we didn't want. This is sci fi but it's so far from sci fi. We don't even I hardly I put some research in the science but I don't care. I don't I don't want that.

Alex Ferrari 18:19
It's irrelevant.

Grant Pichla 18:21
Yes, it's more about an adventure and the romance that brings it all home in the end. You know,

Alex Ferrari 18:27
I love that scene in Avengers endgame when they're going back in time and then like the reference point that everyone who uses for like the spate is Back to the Future and they're like, that's not the way it works. That's not science. Yeah. Are you really talking about the Back to the Future as your scientific reference point on time travel? I thought was a great scene. But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter you could you could throw holes through to me Terminator has insane amounts of holes and all the time travel movies doing but but you you're you're you're you're feeding a master, the different kind of master you're appeasing a different kind of Master, which is story and met and trying to make people feel good. Yeah. Now, what I what I do find interesting is a lot of and I've preached this a lot on the show is the back into what you have access to you look around at your resources, and you write around those resources. And you've taken that to a whole other level by creating this entire kind of story and subplot around, around the time traveling around, I mean, it's just I just I never thought of it. And I thought it was just like, man, I hadn't I think of that I've been in a house that didn't have that I was renovating I couldn't like it was a very smart way of adding an immense amount of production value at essentially no cost. And by the way, what if you don't mind me asking, Can you tell us the budget, you're close to, you know, just generally what the budget was on this budget for this was $4,000. That's fantastic. That's fantastic.

Grant Pichla 20:00
Yeah, we came together basically for the love of film. And when I pitched it to everyone I said, your total commitment on this other than, you know, memorizing lines, and some actors only had small scenes or whatever, is basically a day or two days, depending on if you're in day one or day two. So you show up, busted out. And like Dustin said, Yeah, Mason said after, after day one, he came into day two, and he's like, man, I keep forgetting this film exists, like it was so big, and then all just halted and then disappeared out of my life for like five months. And I started memorizing again, but it's, it's just so different,

Alex Ferrari 20:41
Go ahead.

Grant Pichla 20:42
To add to what you're saying about using what you have available. The guys at draft zero podcast, they once did an episode on movies that are all in one location. And I knew, okay, so if this is gonna be super low budget or done, like all in one, it's going to be done in one night or two nights, then it kind of has to be mostly one location. And what those guys discover at the end of their analysis is like, if a movie is supposed to take place just in one location, then as far as story goes, that location better be really freaking important to the story. So that also turned out. Okay, now this movie is actually about this couple. And the renovations aren't just they're not just there for like, set decoration, but it's a part of their story. And it's an ongoing conversation that happens in scene. So yeah, but we can continue. So I just want to go

Alex Ferrari 21:36
No,no, absolutely. Now, the biggest challenge I would imagine, is working with actors in such a short period of time. Like, I understand that they memorized lines, but I'm assuming it's not verbatim. I'm assuming you let some things fly. There was some dialogue, ad libs or things just kind of like generalized a little bit or did everyone literally go word for word on this?

Grant Pichla 22:02
Okay, so I know that mumble core exists, and I know that scriptment exists. But I did not want to spend two years on a project in which could be like, you know, it could be the last thing I do for 20 years, I don't know. Because life takes you in all different directions I didn't want to do, I didn't want to bring everyone together, get all this stuff prepped and start editing it. And often I'm, I'm realizing that dialogue is flat, or we're missing key things. So my request was that everyone be off book. And I swear to God, Mason Hydros a champ like I could not believe it. He knew every person's line because he he he recorded himself reading the whole script. And just listen to it day after day. All the other actors had such a easier workload compared to him. But there was a couple actors who I said and in particular, his lead counterpart, torey, titmus, she had trained with the second city Conservatory, all improv, she's a Maestro. She's amazing. She walked in, and I started realizing She not only had lines down, but she could improvise things to add to them and improve my dialogue, just by allowing her character go a little more up and down at times. So for the most part, I'd say lines were about 98% as written, which I'm really proud of why it wasn't like blooper after blooper, it was just people came in, and they knew what they had to bring. And they brought it it was really, really awesome.

Alex Ferrari 23:29
I think, from my experience working in the business is when you raise the bar for for crew, for actors, for everybody involved with the project. They either show up in and rise to the occasion, or they completely crack under the pressure. And I mean, it's the bottom line and something like making a film in two days, like you were doing. You'll know real quick if you're cracking or not. And I guess it's just so much pressure. Such fat, like how many takes did you do? I must I mean, I can't imagine you doing more than a couple takes each day.

Grant Pichla 24:05
Yeah, but the maximum we did any scene would have been like three and a half, four takes. And there was a few that we nailed just in one and never really looked back. Like we just did it and we're, we're like, that's good, let's go. But there's some things that I think you might find interesting pertaining to the cast. So like the movie Birdman looks like it's shot on one take, but it's like 13 shots stitched or whatever. They rehearsed that for 30 days or three months or something leading up this movie. And this may sound super irresponsible, and I wouldn't ask anyone else to ever do this, but it was a nature of what we were put under the circumstances. I had never even met our lead actress Tory nor had Mason until 9pm the night before shooting their 61 page act to Roll Matt Stone. Yeah, so it was freaking crazy. So they were like, Hi, nice to meet you. it's game time tomorrow. So let's take the next hour and a half to talk it out. And Reason being is the day before shooting date or sorry that Yeah, 24 hours before shooting day one, we got hit with the biggest Blizzard in like the last three or four years in Michigan 15 inches of snow in 24 hours and no one can drive. And Tori and two other actors are coming from Chicago up to the Detroit area where we are. And they're taking the train and the trains getting stuck. And at one point, the train just lost power. And then Tory missed the train and it it all boiled down to like, holy shit, this film may not happen unless people get here. And we had a crew of 10 which deflated to five the day before shooting. And so it came down to me on steadycam which was you know, pre planned to shooters on long lenses a sound recordist or audio supervisor listening to the four different lavalier mics going at once. And a first ad who took on off five other roles that were missing. So this just due to the blizzard, this became like, it could have been a complete bust. If we were missing like one or two more pieces of the puzzle.

Alex Ferrari 26:25
I feel you because I mean, when I did ego and desire at Sundance, I had never met any of my actors. And it was the day of and they just showed up at Sundance. And before then it was just Skype calls. And they've never I think they had to had the pleasure of meeting each other shortly because they were all coming from New York. But you know, it's kind of adds to the vibe there. It kind of adds to the to the energy of the situation. I mean, you gotta be planned, but you I mean, you're crazy. I mean, me, me doing what I did you doing? You did, we're not we're not doing something like that. So you've got to kind of embrace the nuttiness of it. And just kind of like, you know, don't hide away from it. Like, don't pretend to be what you're not, like, this is what we're doing. This is how we're doing it. Get on the train, because it's already left the station.

Grant Pichla 27:17
Yeah. And it, it totally works. It's just like some of those directors who shoot on film. And they say, the minute you hear the film gate shut, and everyone realizes we're gonna run out of film at a certain point, like the deal, just, you'll just run out, everyone has to kind of like the vibe changes, and we're all in it together. We're either going to make it or we're not. And as much as I was hoping the day was going to go pretty close, like day one was going to go pretty close to my schedule. Man, the whole, it all went completely different. Like, of course, yeah, yeah, it just crazy ways. Which I could elaborate on, unless you want to discuss other things. In the meantime,

Alex Ferrari 28:02
I'm sure I look. I mean, we could talk for hours on everything that went wrong. I'm sure that you know, I'm not wrong that much, but then not as planned. Like, I didn't plan a lot of things on my movie. And sometimes they weren't good. Sometimes they weren't. But you roll with the punches when you're doing a movie like this. And I want everyone listening on to understand this, when you're doing movies that are two days or four days or something so quick or very ambitious. You've got to roll with the punches on a 30 day shoot, you can kind of really take your time, you know, do things Oh, this doesn't work, we can come back to it. There's no time for that. So you've got like, Oh, we only have five crew members. Now, what are you going to do? We got to roll we got to go, what can we do? And you got to kind of adapt and move forward no matter what. Because, as I said, the train has left and there's no stopping it. So either you jump off the train, or you get on and just go with whatever comes. Do you agree?

Grant Pichla 29:05
Yeah, that's the only way you can do it. And it has to be sort of top down leadership. So if you are fretting, then other people start to fret and it'll all the wheels fall off. So you just have no you almost have to know going in, like you said, we're not to even attempt it. So as I was like, sending out like proposal videos to actors, like I have an offer for you, I'd love for you to play like a supporting role this or that. I kind of I I didn't laugh through them. But I I totally recognize that. This may sound crazy to you. And yes, we're still gonna do it. So are you in and yeah, it creates camaraderie for sure.

Alex Ferrari 29:43
There's two things I wanted to you. I wanted to point out that you just said one is the leader, it starts or starts at the top into a casting when you cast the film like this. You really need to be very careful on who you bring in. Because a lot of times you'll have an actor say oh yeah, yeah, I can do it. I'll do it. But They really need to be on board with this process because it's an unlike any normal filmmaking process. And if they're used to doing it one way, and they, they say they're going to do it and they come in and you're like, you're off and running, the whole thing could come crashing down. If your lead really started it mean you everything had to go perfectly for you to make this work. And if your lead would have forgotten lines, had attitude, ego, any of this kind of stuff, the whole thing would have come off the tracks, would you correct? Yeah, that's, that's pretty true. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. So we're insane to even attempt this, because there's so many moving parts, and everything has to land perfectly. There's no room for Oh, you know, there's a mistake here, there's a mistake there, this guy's not doing his job, he's not pulling their weight here, or she's got an attitude, he's, he's crying because you can't feel the pressure, whatever it is, you don't have the bandwidth to handle those kinds of things, because of the speed you're doing it. And so be very, very careful on who you cast behind the scenes and in front of that lens as well. I mean, I'm assuming you agree with all that?

Grant Pichla 31:23
I do. But I would argue that I don't think like, when you say that the only way it can happen is if everything goes right. Or if we get very lucky. There. And I'm not. I'm not like reacting really to that. But I will say there was things all along the way that you just hit, you hit them and you keep going and right. I already I already knew like, hey, if someone can't get lines, or if they if it wasn't an org, we already just had a script waiting. And I would even do it one line at a time if I needed to just to push through. So it's just sort of like, for me, it didn't seem like there was a lot of pressure. until we hit the point where it was 6pm we had nine scenes done and we had 25 more scenes to do before midnight. That's when that's when shit turned up. And it went to 11. And there was no time to breathe. And it was just go go go. That's where it was sort of like the money. This is where you put your money where your mouth is. And you really realize what it takes to shoot half a movie in a night. It's it was it was freakin crazy.

Alex Ferrari 32:37
Without without question, and when I say everything has to kind of work is like if you would have had your lead actor or one or two actors just break down and not you forward the machine, the machine stops working, because those cogs need to be there, or you're going to have to adjust story or you're going to have to move things around. And that's the risk of going in through this. But I'm assuming because of your experience and and shooting as much as you have you felt very comfortable that you could do this. And this is not something you should do. Right out of film school, generally speaking, you should have some sort of have some wealth of experience. And also people who you hire have some sort of wealth of experience that they can fall back on. Because when things don't go the way you want them to go. And they won't. Because it everything wasn't exactly the way you planned, I'm sure. But it's but you have something to fall back on as opposed to like, well, I only know how to do it this one way. And if it doesn't do this way, I can't move forward, you have to have two backup plans. But you gotta keep moving. But it's very, you have to be very careful. And then secondly, the the leader, the leading from the head, from the front aspect of this, when you're doing something like this, it is so outside the norm of the filmmaking process, that if your leader which is the director, who falters has stress has a breakdown. Everything will just stop. Yeah, fair enough to say,

Grant Pichla 34:05
Yeah. And man for me, when I'm doing two jobs and renovating a house, and this is my one chance to kind of break free from all that and just shoot. There wasn't even a question about cracking or anything. It was more So hey, I've shot 25 weddings where it's one and done you they only kiss at the altar once or they only enter the reception aisle once so you gotta be on it. So at this point, it's like, even if we screw something up, hey, we could do a second take right now it's fine. Or I'm just happy to be in this room with all these people at once and be working with so many talented people that even if something breaks or doesn't work, I'm still doing it the smile because this is the funnest part like this is like Jim Jarmusch says this is the act of sex in the filmmaking process. So it's just fun.

Alex Ferrari 34:52
Absolutely. And that's the mentality you have to go into that with if you're not having fun. Like what you know, when I was doing my film I'm running around, I had a ball. And I think I don't get to talk to filmmakers who do the things I've done very often. Isn't it kind of exhilarating being out on a tightrope with no debt? With no net? Like, there's on a creative standpoint, as an artist, you're on uncharted territory. And you've got a group of people around you. And I find it exhilarating, I find it, you know, other people would crack, they would just lose their mind because they can't control everything. I love being out there, What's your feeling on it?

Grant Pichla 35:34
I feel like it's like, took me back to high school basketball, it's fourth quarter, your team's down 10 your shot is on. And like, let's go, let's duke it out to the end. And every every decision you're gonna make is just gonna be fun, or just, you're gonna make your best choices you can with your best people behind you. Like, you got a awesome shooter on your left and awesome shoe on your right, you've got to trust them. You can't go over their shoulder and say, What are you setting up? Let me see that. It's like, No, just, I trust you your own. You're your own mini director and cinematographer. So are you. And so am I and I might cross your paths or something when I'm steady camming. But for the most part, if you miss a shot, just pick it up know that you got two other stellar shooters who are doing their best to do that. And, like, time, time told that at the end of the process, the footage we got and the performances we got amidst sort of the chaos was awesome. And in no part about that, like act two felt, oh, they just rushed this off or like this, you can tell you can feel the actors are rushing through or the cameras aren't ready. Like it pretty much just worked. But like you said, it takes years of experience to go in. If the Canon c 200 didn't have the ability to do like face tracking, and autofocus things on lenses that we have, then I would have shot it completely differently. I probably would have just called like sitcom style, and just stay wide. But I was trying to infuse, you know, Dally portions or to an extent with a steady cam and reveals and things like that. So sorry, I went off on a little tangent.

Alex Ferrari 37:10
Oh, no, that's fine. That's fine. Now, how did you convince everybody to come back? and seven, try to gather up the first time is it tough enough, let alone trying to bring it back seven months later?

Grant Pichla 37:22
Well, it's, it's not so hard to convince them to come back. It's just are their schedules open. And the last thing I want this to be was like, the minute we got a day that could work. I was like, we gotta lock it in now. Because if we if we say no, let's go for like a month later and try that. And then something happens. And then one person can't make it. Now you're talking do I rewrite scripts do I? Do I you start sacrificing everything. So it's mostly mostly just getting them there. And in terms of like, shooting the crew, they're just pumped, because this is Michigan and we don't get films, especially with people you know, like your old college classmates, and you know, they're good. And they know that you're putting together a good team, so they just want they want in. So you know, it's just a really great opportunity for everyone involved. Basically

Alex Ferrari 38:12
Now that never underestimate the power of people wanting to belong to a mission, a group, an event of some sort, and filmmaking, def, especially when it's outside like an LA. Everybody's making films, everyone's shooting films, everyone's working for free on little projects here and there. But outside of la mayor, people get really jazzed up when someone comes up and goes, Hey, follow me into the into the promised land, I'm going, it's gonna be crazy, but follow me. And people were like, well, there's nobody else around let's do this. It just seems like he knows what he's going. Let's go follow him.

Grant Pichla 38:48
So I did. I did that when I was in Miami, and with a lot of my projects there. And it just there's people were very excited. And I used to make my film into an event. So it made it made it bigger than it was in June, obviously to the sake of making that tight. That's how you get people willing to donate food and coffee and things like that, because it's so exciting. It's not the norm. And

Alex Ferrari 39:13
it's one day it's just it's, it's today's

Grant Pichla 39:16
The commitment is like any three dozen box of doughnuts and coffee as opposed to can we like nag you for a month of free stuff? It's just it's a lot to ask. So the one day commitment or two day commitment over the course of like a year. In some ways, it makes things a lot more achievable. Because if we were set out like let's really let's do this epic this time travel epic. And if I would try to shoot it traditionally, and don't get me wrong, our shots our lighting isn't it would make cinematographers cry because I can recognize there were things that had to be sacrificed. But to be able to just do it in two days and say, let's prioritize stories number one acting's number two sound in scores number three after that, like we can't skimp on those. But after that, man, we're going to get the best shots we can, we're going to do the best props and like, set design and wardrobe as you can. But man, those three things and when you get people, people like Mason Hydra tori titmus. It's just, you almost feel like in the same way you can trust your other shooters. You can just trust the actors. And even if they miss a line, it's okay. They're in character, they might cough in the middle line, but they coffin character and things like that.

Alex Ferrari 40:33
So, you know, how did you like? How did you like the scene? How did you like the movie? Because I'm assuming you, you don't have two hours to light a scene. So how did you do the lighting.

Grant Pichla 40:43
So it's like 50-50 in half the scenes like allow the basement scenes or in our main like kitchen, we had our main kitchen had overhead can lights, eight of them. So basically an array, and in our basement, we set up for practicals that were also an array. So pretty much like grid lighting. So as long as characters were within a certain zone of the room, there was always a backlight hitting on, there's always at least three angles hitting them. And it's Don't get me wrong, it's not even like like cinematographers are gonna say you're an idiot. But when you don't have time, you just gotta roll with it. And the other half, we would be like in a bedroom. I know that photographers, they turn their flash and point out the ceiling shoe and you bounce the ceiling and get a great floodlight, that's like 90% of solving the issue with bedroom scenes, just shoot that soft light at the sky or at the ceiling, let it flood down, and then some practicals as kickers behind them.

Alex Ferrari 41:43
Alright, and you know, a lot of people always, you know, will say, you know, try poopoo on your lighting or poopoo on on, like, Oh, she's not as perfect as this, there's not perfect as that I'm like, well, while you're still talking about it, I finished the movie.

Grant Pichla 41:59
Right? And the audience is listening to the next line of dialogue, they're not looking at the way a light is pointed. You know, they just

Alex Ferrari 42:06
As long as it's clean, as long as it's somewhat clean. People will accept that much more than they would 2530 years ago, like in the in the world of YouTube and the world of you know, films, you know, films being shot on an iPhone and things like that. People will forgive. Okay, lighting, web forgiver bad lighting. Like I'm watching the show right now, which I will remain named us, which is a really good show. But I can't stand the cinematographer like a he drives me nuts. I my wife is like, what, what? What is that? Who color graded this what's going on. But unfortunately, the show is really good. So I hope in the next seasons, it'll get better, but you will forgive. You will forgive bad bad lighting, if the story is compelling. I mean, look at paranormal activity. I mean, I mean, Jesus, you know, or even or Blair Witch Project. I know, those are two very young people always use those. But even primer primer wasn't lit amazingly well. But people weren't enthralled with the story, you know. So, it, I want everybody listening out there to understand that, that if you sit around waiting for everything to be perfect, you just gonna be waiting around 1015 years, you know, or you could just make your movie the best you can and get it out there and move on to the next project, which I think you've done that to the next level.

Grant Pichla 43:31
Exactly, it just if I hadn't shot it in these two days, and just kind of like, broke the rules and all that stuff. Like no one wants to break. No one wants bad lighting, and no one wants, like mistakes on audio here or there and things like that, or something might be slightly out of focus. You don't no one wants that. But where I was in my life, there was no more make. There's no more directing films unless I gave it a shot at something very, very short. And you know, maybe the marketability of shot in two days is something that would intrigue so on, but even still, it was more so it was more sort of just do something to just give it a horizon. See, see what we can make for film sake.

Alex Ferrari 44:14
Right, exactly. Now, what is the endgame of the film? Like what do you want to achieve with this film for yourself?

Grant Pichla 44:21
I hope Well, hopefully it rich and famous and everything else.

Alex Ferrari 44:25
It's a lottery ticket. Yes, yes. We're all just submitted to Sundance. Just wait for the check. Wait for the the the bidding war to happen. And and you should get to $3 million for it. And then you do the next Marvel movie. So I think it all worked. Perfect. Now when you wake up, what is the truth?

Grant Pichla 44:48
Um, my hope is that it has a hallmark vibe to it for sure. Now I'm not I can't just sit here and say like, Oh, I'd love to see it on Hallmark. Oh, I I think this could work on On the sci fi channel, like, that's just my hope is that with our festival submissions, someone somewhere accepts it. First of all, maybe no one will. But if they do, then I hope someone sitting somewhere, hears about it or sees it or even on your podcast, someone comes across and says, Oh, this is something we might be interested in or anything like that. Because right now I'm at a stage of just getting I need people don't even know it exists. So you first have people have to just find out that exists. And me posting to like our page, our page are our page on Facebook, like, oh, we're getting great audience reviews means a whole lot less then some festival picking it up and someone writing a story about it. Because my opinion, like either the film's priceless or worthless. It's it's depends on Who says so? And I to answer your question, I don't know, I'm hoping I'm going to take all the proper steps that you've outlined to the best of my ability and other resources. I'm going to try to get distribution, I don't think self distribution is really my answer here. Maybe because it was shot. So uniquely, there could be a niche market of filmmakers who are interested in how films are made, we did shoot, we shot and edited an eight episode behind the scenes as to how it was done on day one, day two, and all the follow up. So we've got great content. It's just a matter of like getting the word out and seeing who or where might be interested.

Alex Ferrari 46:40
Okay, and you in because you have such a low budget, you can kind of have a loosey goosey approach to it. Because it's not if this movie cost you 200 grand? First of all, I don't think that you'd be freaking the hell out. First of all, and so and also, you probably in all good conscience would not have done a movie in two days for $200,000. You know, it doesn't make sense. And I think that's another thing that filmmakers just have such a, you know, they'll just go in all in on a film. And they just like, yeah, let's just do it. We're gonna like, you did a smart man, you have a very low, you know exactly what I preach a film intrapreneur, which is keep your overhead low. So, you know, if you can't make four grand back, you're in the wrong business. Right? I mean, I mean, and from what I've seen, if you're on the show, there's a quality level there that I see that I was like, oh, there's, this actually has a really good chance of making money and generating revenue. And I'm really curious to see where it all goes. So basically, your distribution plan is going to be film festivals first, and see what happens. Basically,

Grant Pichla 47:44
I'll see what happens then I'll probably reach out if nothing I'll after that, then I would reach directly out to distributors, such as any film rights, other people you have recommended, and see if they'd have any interest. And if not, maybe reach out to a new branch of distributors. And if not, it's hard to say like, I don't really know what I would do after that point. Like I feel like I other than self, other than just blast my Facebook and do Google targeted ads. Yeah, try to sell it. It's that's all it's a whole lot of money spent hoping you sell some back. It's hard.

Alex Ferrari 48:22
It's it's No. And that's it. I'm so glad you said that. Because it's so many filmmakers think that, Oh, I'm gonna self distribute. And I'm gonna, I'm just gonna do some targeted Facebook ads and this and that. And like, it's you have a broad spectrum movie. Like you. I know. You. Yeah, you don't have a niche. I mean, the niche is time travel movie, the time travel, feel good movie. It's huge. It's a man's massive niche, you know? So it's not, you can't really target it. If you would have made I'm sure you've heard this, if you like, if you would have made it the vegan chef time travel movie. Yeah, you might have been exactly that audience. You can target that audience or you know, or he's a surfer or he's a skateboarder or whatever. It makes it really part I'm just using that as an analogy, but but make it really part then it's something that you may be in that's a big, maybe able to do the Facebook targeting and reaching out to that niche. But that's work that you would have had to have done a year ago. Not now, you know, so, but I do but I do feel that your film does have really good possibilities, really good legs, and from my experience should sell and should sell very well. And I'll give you some advice off air on what I think you could do with it. But I do think you have you have something that could could do very well for you, especially at that price point. Well, Question two.

Grant Pichla 49:41
If you don't mind me interjecting, then yeah, the nice thing is we sent the film to about 15 test audience members, when it had it's like 99.9% cut done with all score with all color everything basically done. And so much of the feedback we received Like, overwhelmingly positive Wow. So invested in the story or the characters. And then they'd say, oh, man, I can't, I still don't get how was this done in two days? Like I can't, I don't, I can't wrap my head around that. But the audience is like sort of general audience members. They love the idea that was shined two days, but they just love the story. So that's great. So I feel like we've got the story. And we've got real acting talent, and really solid sound and music. So it's just a matter of like, waiting for the right person to discover it. So we're just trying to get it out. And oh, and to add, I feel like the because the Internet has really radically changed how distribution goes and all these companies can sort not be outed, but sort of exposed and all the knowledge that you're filtering through in every podcast, people are wising up. I don't think right now, there is a perfect answer. Because like eight years ago, or maybe five years ago, people were saying, self distribute, self distribute, and now they're like, well, don't pay the cost of the aggregator cost put on iTunes, because no one's buying it, because there's too much content. And who's paying $3 to watch something when Netflix is free? All like forever? not free, but forever prime or prime? Yeah, prime, like new stuff. So it's just it's very interesting. I don't know.

Alex Ferrari 51:26
Yeah. And again, I'll point this out is that you're in a perfect scenario, in a perfect place where you have a movie or a piece of product that you've created for $4,000. If you would have made this for 50,000. It still be a bit it just it just makes it so much more harder. So if you're able to generate 30 4050 grand off of this movie, I'm assuming that would be a success to you. Hopefully, more if if distributors are listening that no, no, no, no, no, no, I understand. Yeah. Yeah. Trust me, I don't even know if a distributor Will you know, that's a whole other conversation as far as distributors and MGS and stuff.

Grant Pichla 52:10
No, it's all relative. But to your point, that's 10 times the cost that the film, you know, took to make. So yes,

Alex Ferrari 52:18
Yeah. Yeah, of course, I would love it a quarter of a million half a minute. It's all relative, right? It's all relative on on the thing. And if you're able to do more of these smaller budget films, you start creating that portfolio of films, where now you're starting to generate multiple revenue sources coming in from these films. And and then, my God, you might even have a career in filmmaking and make a living doing what you love to do, what days a year, it is, two days a year. That's that's your niche, your niches today movies. That's all you do. Time Travel today. This is the beginning of a trilogy. So you should do now another get another house do another.

Grant Pichla 53:02
Yeah, maybe the Property Brothers were just one step away from realizing what could be done. Now? I don't know.

Alex Ferrari 53:08
Exactly. Now, I'm gonna ask you a few questions. I ask all my guests, my friend. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to make it in the business today?

Grant Pichla 53:18
I would say where I live in Detroit, there's no such thing as making it in the business for like for anyone outside of LA, because I can't give advice on what they should do when they go there. So I would just say, at this point, read the books, read, read the books, do the pre production, write the scripts, revise storyboard, do all those things you can before you spend a dime, and do them tailored to all of the most useful and unique and maybe maybe even things people don't see enough on screen. Whether it's a house run out, or something like I don't even think the inside of the house is all that unique, but to see it transform and then transform back in the end. Very different. But like look for things that should be on screen that make your film stand out. Maybe you got a really bad ass car. Maybe there's just a junkyard behind your neighbor's house. And this junkyard could be settings for some Red Dawn remake or something or script like that. But like, do everything for nothing. then figure out who's in your market that is an actor or go to local colleges figure that out. And then you just start making stuff so you shoot that movie with them. After that you've got some tiny tiny street cred. Use that to do something that's a little more Polish this time with better people. And then after that maybe approach actors who could learn like their name alone could help in the selling, although that jump that going from $4,000 Indy to like $100,000 and we're paying this actor 10 grand to be here for the day. That's a massive job. So I don't I don't even have advice. For that, I think that's very intimidating.

Alex Ferrari 55:02
Yeah, got it. And you you said a lot of great things in that answer a lot of great things that you should everyone should listen to and take notes on. Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Grant Pichla 55:22
The longest for me to learn was probably stop trying to juggle 200 things at once.

Alex Ferrari 55:34
Brother, I feel

Grant Pichla 55:34
Yeah, it's the name of your frickin podcast, man. It's a hustle. So you know, if you get in that mindset young, and I was raised on a farm, where you just busted your ass period, because there wasn't, there was no other option, you just were told, that's what you got to do. So for me, it's like learning to turn it off and not. And it kind of goes with the themes of the film I made. Don't let your ambitions or your time machine take over your life and like, make your relationships with people around you crumble like it's okay to just turn it off at 5pm and then just go live normal live, because we can't I feel like preaching the dream of this business or industry is it can have negative consequences and people can go for broke. And you can go for broke for $4,000. Or you can go for broke. mortgaging your house and doing a half a million dollar film. Which one's gonna if they both fail, what's the better outcome out of those two? You know, so? I don't know. Maybe that's the that's what I've learned. Next question, sir.

Alex Ferrari 56:45
Fair enough. Fair enough. What is the biggest fear you had to overcome to make this film?

Grant Pichla 56:51
Um, biggest fear? Probably. Probably giving in to the the nature of what it was. So it happened kind of early. So it was sort of like, hey, if we're gonna make this, like, How the hell am I gonna like this? How, and then just realizing, no, you've told people before, it's not about lighting, it's about story. So let it go. And you know, try to light but let it go. And throw the boom mic away. Let's just love everyone. You can buy $33 mic j, or sorry, $20. Mic j off. Amazon sounds just as good as the sennheisers. And don't get me wrong, the sennheisers aren't cream, they're not even necessarily like the CLS. 11 Ds are anything. But dude, for like, very cheap, you can mic every single person in that and 12 people mic and then just switch the wireless pack each person in the room person and yada, yada. But it's just sort of like letting things go. And knowing that the 80% rule like if, like I told my shooters, if you get 80% of this pretty darn good, we're moving up, we can't reset something to help you get a shot. Because we started that way in the beginning. And we just had to right away, break, break old habits and realize like this, this is just gonna keep moving. And you're gonna let things go and you might miss a shot, but suck it up. Like you'll get your next shot in the next scene, or 20 years from now or 30 years from now. And we're still shooting tonight. That's probably it.

Alex Ferrari 58:29
All right, and the three of your favorite films of all time.

Grant Pichla 58:33
I would say Jurassic Park, Up and Fargo.

Alex Ferrari 58:37
Wow. You had you had them listed ready to go nice.

Grant Pichla 58:39
Yeah, watch your podcasts enough to know that.

Alex Ferrari 58:43
This is a good combination, a good combination of films? And where can where can people find you?

Grant Pichla 58:48
They can find me honestly, you can just email me straight up [email protected] or here will be at gmail here for how much solicitation? Well, um basically Facebook, we do have a Twitter for the film, if you just search it or if even if you just go on makingtimethemovie.com you'll see more things about it. And I did have I did set up a link for any podcast listeners. I don't know if you want me to mention that or no.

Alex Ferrari 59:17
As far as I could put it in the show notes.

Grant Pichla 59:21
Okay, um, but otherwise, yeah, so pretty much hit me up on Facebook or Twitter. I don't even have an Instagram and our Twitter is just the movie Twitter, and I'm tired for that stuff. So

Alex Ferrari 59:33
You're too busy making today movies, man. Yeah. Great, man. Thank you so much for being on the show. Brother. I do appreciate it. You are an inspiration to hopefully a lot of people listening and hopefully somebody listening right now is going to go You know what, if this guy can make a two day movie up in Detroit, Michigan, I can go do something in five days. You know? So hopefully, man so thanks again for being on the show brother.

Grant Pichla 59:59
Thank you. So Much, Alex, I really appreciate it.

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BPS 254: Free Screenwriting Masterclass – The Anatomy of Story Genres with John Truby

John Truby is one of the most respected and sought-after story consultants in the film industry, and his students have gone on to pen some of Hollywood’s most successful films, including Sleepless in SeattleScream, and ShrekThe Anatomy of Story is his long-awaited first book, and it shares all his secrets for writing a compelling script. Based on the lessons in his award-winning class, Great Screenwriting, The Anatomy of Story draws on a broad range of philosophy and mythology, offering fresh techniques and insightful anecdotes alongside Truby’s own unique approach to building an effective, multifaceted narrative.

His new book, Anatomy of Genres, is NOW Available!

A guide to understanding the major genres of the story world by the legendary writing teacher and author of The Anatomy of Story, John Truby.

Most people think genres are simply categories on Netflix or Amazon that provide a helpful guide to making entertainment choices. Most people are wrong. Genre stories aren’t just a small subset of the films, video games, TV shows, and books that people consume. They are the all-stars of the entertainment world, comprising the vast majority of popular stories worldwide. That’s why businesses―movie studios, production companies, video game studios, and publishing houses―buy and sell them. Writers who want to succeed professionally must write the stories these businesses want to buy. Simply put, the storytelling game is won by mastering the structure of genres.

The Anatomy of Genres: How Story Forms Explain the Way the World Works is the legendary writing teacher John Truby’s step-by-step guide to understanding and using the basic building blocks of the story world. He details the three ironclad rules of successful genre writing and analyzes more than a dozen major genres and the essential plot events, or “beats,” that define each of them. As he shows, the ability to combine these beats correctly separates stories that sell from those that don’t. Truby also reveals how a single story can combine elements of different genres and how the best writers use this technique to craft unforgettable stories that stand out from the crowd.

Just as Truby’s first book, The Anatomy of Story, changed the way writers develop stories, The Anatomy of Genres will enhance their quality and expand the impact they have on the world.

Enjoy my conversation with John Truby.

Right-click here to download the MP3

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John Truby 0:00
Hollywood is in the business of buying and selling genres. That's what they're actually buying. And therefore, if you're going to be a writer who sells to them, you've got to write a genre story that they want to buy. That's their product.

Alex Ferrari 0:15
This episode is brought to you by Bulletproof Script Coverage, where screenwriters go to get their scripts read by Top Hollywood Professionals. Learn more at covermyscreenplay.com I'd like to welcome back to the show returning champion, John Truby. How you doin John?

John Truby 0:32
Doing great, Alex, good to be with you again.

Alex Ferrari 0:35
Yeah, man, I listen. We're here to talk about your new book, anatomy of genres, how story forms explains the way the world works. And as we were talking before we started, this is the most insane book I have ever seen in the screenwriting space there is, or in the story, space period, it applies to all sorts of story, which is very smart on your part, sir. But it is, it's 700 Plus pages. And it is a manual that I've never seen. It doesn't exist. This thing is comprehensive. Of a book about story, story forms genre, there's just nothing else in the world that's ever been written like this in my in such. I mean, it's insane. And it took you you told me six years to write this thing.

John Truby 1:29
Six years into writing. Yeah, yeah.

Alex Ferrari 1:31
Oh, God. God bless you, brother. I mean, I mean, they got you did because God knows. It's a lot. I wrote ever 50,000 words, and I was exhausted.

John Truby 1:41
Yeah, I it was, it was exhausting. And I didn't know if I could do it, because it was such a marathon. But you know, what, what needed to be covered? what needed to be said about these different story forums, because they're so massive and so important to writers, whether it's screenwriters, novel writers, whatever, is so huge, that that that was kind of what kept me going was to know that this is going to provide help to writers that they have never had, and that especially in the current worldwide story, situation, worldwide story world. It is absolutely essential.

Alex Ferrari 2:24
Yeah, without question. So my, my first question is you in your book, the very beginning, you say world, you look at the world as story, can you kind of dive into that? A little bit of what you mean by that?

John Truby 2:36
Yeah, it's, it's, it's super important to start with that. Because, you know, we always think of the world tells stories. And we tend to think, well, this is you know, it's for entertainment. And that's great. So on, but you know, it's not a big deal. No, the world is story. The way that we understand the world is always done through story, including the way we understand ourselves. Because it's one of the things I talk about in the detective chapter. Your, your image of yourself who you are, is a story that you began telling from earliest consciousness. And it is a story that you play out every day. But so story is how we understand the world and how it how the world is organized for us. And it's done through characters. And you know, we are the hero. We have opponents out there antagonists out there that we have to deal with obstacles we have to overcome, we have goals that we want to succeed in our life, and so on. So that's how we work through the world. And what this book does is not only talk about how story shapes our understanding of the world, but how these different types of stories give us a different world view of how the world works. So each one is its own separate model of how the world works, and the genres that you write, and the genres that you'd like to watch and read, really mirror your view of how the world works. And it's something that is super important in the book that to get into each genre expresses a life philosophy, and that's why they're so powerful. That's why they're so popular with audiences is not just that they're a sequence of plot beats, that that are really compressed to tell a great story. No, each genre has its own view for how to live successfully in this world. And so, the the stories that you go back to let's say you love action stories, it's because the philosophy of life that an action story tells is something that that generates that that appeals to your sense of how you want to live in the world how you try it'll live in the world. And it it reaffirms your values by which you live. And so and so you know, for example, you you have people, you know who go who read tons of romance novels, love romantic comedies and so on, they go back to them again. And again, they're not going back to those stories because they are looking to be surprised by the plot beats, they know the plot beats, they love the plot beats, they love to see it played out, but there's no surprise there know what's playing out, what they are really going back to again, and again is to get that reaffirmation of the values and the life philosophy that Romans gives us.

Alex Ferrari 5:44
So it's, that's why revenge films are like montcada. Monte Cristo is so you know, well, people love revenge stories, because it's a form of justice, you're wrong doing something that was you were wrong than many of us, if not most, if not all of us feel wronged at certain points, and we'd love to get what we consider justice in our life. So that's just a small example of what you're talking about.

John Truby 6:07
And in fact, the crime chapter is all about justice is all about that's the larger thematic issue that it's dealing with. And what what each of these genres do is they come up with a dramatic sequence of plot events, to express that deeper thematic view.

Alex Ferrari 6:29
So you mentioned something that was very powerful. And before we get into the nuts and bolts of story, but when you said that we have been telling ourselves and living our own stories, since conception is basically since we came out into the world, and that story is told to us by our parents, our community, our religion, all of that is, is kind of imprinted is downloaded into a Matrix style, because we come in pretty much a blank hard drive, if you will. Yeah. And that's brought in, and then a lot of the limiting beliefs that humanity has about themselves, is stories, we tell each other like, oh, I can, I can never make more than $100,000 a year, I can never lose that weight. These are stories that we tell ourselves. Right?

John Truby 7:12
Right. Absolutely. Right. And and those, those stories are miniature ideologies. They are many, they're not just different thoughts. No, they're a pattern, a sequence of thoughts that hang together, that we formed very early on. And therefore changing those is very difficult, because we keep going back to playing out that same script, that that same story sequence, that maybe it worked, when we first created that story. But typically, when we get older, we don't need that story. And that story is not actually justified by our life. But we are so hung up on that story that we made, what I talk about in in the anatomy of story book, in terms of stuff that I call the ghost, is that it's it's so deeply embedded from very early on, that's a very hard story for us to get beyond and one of the, one of the marks of a good story is to get you as the audience's the reader to see the ideology, ideological story in your own mind in your own life, and say, Hey, wait a minute. There's a lot of flaws in that you can do better than that. And, and, and by showing us characters going through a similar life situation that we are doing, basically creating an avatar for us. We then are able to say, Hey, maybe I can have a self revelation of my own, and say, Wait a minute, I'm making that mistake, too. And it's really holding me back.

Alex Ferrari 8:50
And I mean, when you look at I mean, I don't know how many times you've read a story or watched a movie, and afterwards you were a changed person, especially when you're younger when you watch certain movies. You watch the godfather. Yeah. And I mean, it's all about family. It's not about the mob, it's about family, you watch Goodfellas in the same genre, you might want to go to Shawshank you know those kinds of films, move you and change you the matrix, right changed people's perception about life and their worldview and their ideologies. And and it's such a powerful tool. It's honestly a very powerful responsibility as storytellers of what we put out into the world because it does. It does affect the world in general.

John Truby 9:37
Yeah. And interestingly enough, all of the films that you just mentioned, I talked about heavily in the book because they are so fundamental, not just as a story that was meaningful to us. But the stories that actually formed that particular genre. You tell him that, you know, the godfather in Goodfellas, they're right up there in the top five gangster stories ever made. And they when we think of the ideology, the life philosophy that's embedded in the gangster story. A lot of it is coming through those particular films.

Alex Ferrari 10:18
And those films. They, like I said, they change society, there are films that that just change the way you look at life. And again, in there's novels upon novels that changed the way I mean, when when Frankenstein showed up, it completely changed the way I mean, when Christmas carol showed up. It completely changed. You know, when Shakespeare showed up, it completely changed the perspective of story. And is it because when we when we were watching or reading story, or listening to a story and around the campfire, when we identify ourselves, we put ourselves in that story. We're like, hey, you know what? I feel like I was wrongly imprisoned in my marriage, or in this partnership with this business person, a businessman that I'm with. And that's why I connect so heavily to Shawshank, let's say, or I feel wronged. And that's why I just love Count of Monte Cristo, and I want revenge. And I want to feel that getting getting justice, is that why these stories move society in so many ways?

John Truby 11:22
Well, there's a couple of things going on. One is the impact that they have on the individual viewer, individual reader in terms of touching something, either an experience that they've had from early on, or wrong that they've experienced, but remember it is it at that level, it's even below genre, because we're talking about, we're taking the basic setup of any story, including our own, which is on the hero, but I've got these opponents who are preventing me from getting the goal in my life. And so when when I am prevented or even wronged, this is so deeply felt, because you're talking about your entire life passage. And if it's a big enough, wrong, it can destroy you for your whole life. So when you see something like Count of Monte Cristo, which is probably the greatest revenge story ever done, and it's so beautifully done, and it's got all fantastical elements with the Chateau de F, and all these kinds of things, and you know, it's still fantastic. What he's got, and he's got these, but what it's interesting, that writer was probably the apex of plot in the history of story. So it's interesting. You mentioned that particular one, this guy was the master of plot, do and do loss. Exactly. And and what genres do is, they are plot systems. So it's not just that it's about revenge. It's about the way he shaped this revenge story. wronged by three people. He goes to prison this and fantastical prison that he escaped from it. And then he takes revenge, not on one, not on two on three guys. And it's so beautifully plotted out. That's what in this is really the source of why I wrote the book was it was a deep need, and pain that I saw. And I've seen for the last 10 years that writers have it, especially in screenwriting, but also a novel and television, right, which is the great distinction that between the top 1% of writers, the top 1% of professional writers, and everybody else is the ability to plot. That's it. You know, character development, super important dialogue, obviously, very important, so and so forth. But what distinguishes those who really succeed, and in screenwriting, we're talking about a very small percentage to do. So what is it? What is it, I had to put my finger on it, but what it is, is the ability to plot and unfortunately, for decades, the tools that writers have had in screenwriting, to be able to come up with a plot that would work at the top 1%. Were just, they just weren't there. I mean, 3x structure, save the cat these kinds of things. They're fine when you're first starting out. But if you're talking about for example, in 3x structures, two or three major plot, plot beats in the story, that's not going to get you close to a plot that's complex enough to work at that high professional level. Just to give you an example, a successful film will have anywhere from 10 to 12. Major plot beats not two to 310 to 12. And in fact, the last 20 years one of the biggest trends in screenwriting and in film industry in general, is the densification of plot. And there was there droop, demanding more plot per two hours, because that's all you got. Right? Unless you're James Cameron, you just got two hours, right? So how do you get more plot, what you do is a, you have to use genres. And two, you have to mix genres. And this is something I talked about in the opening chapter, when I talk about the three unwritten rules of the entertainment business today. One is, it's a genre world. Hollywood is in the business of buying and selling genres. That's what they're actually buying. And therefore, if you're going to be a writer who sells to them, you've got to write a genre story that they want to buy. That's their product. Right? The second rule is, you have to mix two to four genres. It used to be 30 years ago, you could write a single genre story, no more, especially since the initial the original Star Wars came out. It's all about combining genres. And why because you give them you give them two to three times the number of plot beats. That's the real reason. And so you got this super dense plot, because you're bouncing back and forth, for between the 15 to 20 plot beats of each of those genres. So you've got upwards of 60 plot beats that you're working on, in a script, which, which, in a mixed genre scrip, so this was what I was trying to see was, Okay, if that's the world we're dealing with, as writers, what is the solution, the solution is, you got to write a book that lays out all the plot beats for for the 14 major genres, from which 99% 99.9% of all stories in the world come from either singly or more likely, in a mixture of two to four. And so that's where I started laying out. Each chapter, lays out the plot, first of all lays out the plot beats, the unique plot beats of that particular genre, because that's your first job. As a writer, you got to beat those beats, you've got to hit those beats, if you don't hit all the beats of that form. People who love that form will get really pissed off. Right, you so that's your first job. But that's just job one. Then what I talked about, which, with the third unwritten rule of Hollywood, is that if you just hit the beats of that form, that's going to get you in the ballpark. But how do you separate yourself from everybody else writing that job? Right? Because I always tell writers, you're not competing against everybody in Hollywood writing a script, you're competing against the people writing in your genre, you got to write it better than they do. And how do you write it better than they do? You have to transcend the genre.

Alex Ferrari 18:10
So in you know, I remember growing up in the 70s and 80s, where plot points and stories were simpler. And if you go back in the 40s, and 50s. I mean, they're super, super simple. were things that would get what you would get away with, then you just couldn't get away with in the 70s and 80s. And now that we are bombarded with so much story so often, from so many different mediums, whether it's video games, or store plays, or screenplay movies, or novels, or you know, social media stories, like there's just so many different kinds of stories, we've also seen, like my generation is probably the first generation because I'm the video store generation to, to watch movies again and again in the cable generation. And there's just so much content that we grew up on that we've seen plots. Now I see my daughters who are young, and they call out plot points in movies, they're like, that's the bad guy. Oh, he's just gonna and I hear and I'm like, my god, they're so trained already. Right? That the writers of today can't write the script of the 70s or 80s or 90s, early 2000s Even Oh, it has to be more complex it has to do and I love the IDF and if we can go through the top 10 or 20 movies of all time every single one of them combined genre Yes. Every every there's not one that's a straight story. It's a love story to tell the story action store and they're all called together and anytime you make genre, like a horror comedy, with maybe a love story tapped in there. That's that's the thing and people always ask like, Why did avatar become the biggest movie of all time? It's such a big like a lot of people Call it a basic plot we've all seen it's like Dances with Wolves meets FernGully meets Pocahontas. Yeah. But not only because of the spectacle, but he through how many genres are in that movie,

John Truby 20:11
You come over to just a perfect example. Because avatar, and this is what Cameron does repeatedly combined these genres, myth, action, love, you don't get three better genres for worldwide success than those three. And he knows those forms form backward. And he knows how to combine the forms. And this is one of the difficulties that writers have. Many writers understand that they can't write a single genre story anymore. So they say, okay, yeah, I gotta mix genres. But saying it and doing it are two very different things. It's very complex, because the the genre beats in one genre may cancel out the genre beats in another genre. Because they're telling, they're telling that the overall story, what makes a great story, they're telling it in different ways, with different beats and different sequences. So mixing them is very tricky. A guy like Cameron with avatar, not only was able to combine those three very popular forms, in an almost perfect seamless way. But in this is the other part of what the book is all about. It was that. And this is something that that almost no writers get now, which is that that top 1% is not just writing complex plots, with mixed genre stories, they are expressing advanced theme through that complex plot. And that's why I want to talk about in the second half of the chapter after I've gone through the beats of that particular form. I've talked about what is the theme, what is the life philosophy that this genre is expressing. And if you can tap into that, and do it in a new way that we haven't seen before, then the audience is going to just go through the roof. And that's what that's what camera is able to do with avatar. And something I talk about in the myth chapter of the book. I talk extensively about avatar, I talk about it as the first of the new female myth story. Female myth is a story form that has been gone for 3000 years in Western culture. And just in the last 15 years, it's come back and it's come back with a vengeance, I believe it's going to be one of the major forms in worldwide storytelling in every medium for the next few decades and beyond. Why, and and it's because the female myth, you know, with things like hero's journey and so on, we hear about Joseph Campbell, we hear about this mono myth that supposedly all the all stories are this mono myth. Wrong. I have a bit of a major disagreement with Joseph Campbell. And of course, I, I presume to the root because he's one of the greats. But I believe this mono myth idea is really wrong. It's based on the fact that the stories that he's talking about, were all male myth stories, because it says the female myth was wiped out 3000 years ago, when Hunter societies basically male myth, societies wiped out gatherer societies, which is basically agriculture societies. And so what happened was, you have this, the this male myth that that Campbell is talking about, is really a male warrior myth. And those beats, yes, those are the beats of a male warrior story. But those are not the only kind of myths stories that are out there. And with avatar, what happened was, you see not only the overall movement of that story is not only from a technological society, to a nature society. More importantly, it is the movement over the over that script and over that film, from a male myth story to a female myth story. And the way each handles the basic beats of myth. And the basic beats of story are radically different. And he was able to see this and lock into it. And then you had things like gravity inside out. These are female mysteries with massive worldwide appeal. And if you break them down, you see that they're telling the story to myth, form, and overall story structure in a fundamentally different way than male myths. maleness stories are told, and what they're very hard to do. They're very and I talk about exactly how you do that how you write the female ms story in that chapter, but is going to be huge on talent. I keep telling people, this thing is huge. And if you want to express the theme of the female myth, which is, in my opinion, a superior theme than the male myth theme, you need to learn how to tell this story because it is going to be huge.

Alex Ferrari 25:30
And on top of that with other other genres Heath Austin, there were obviously action and sci fi and, and a few other dazzles that hit in the notes. As you were talking, I was thinking back through his filmography. And you're absolutely right, every single James Cameron movie for other than Parana to the spawning. But from Terminator on, it's all he combines those three main things. But there's always a love story. There's always a love story in his movies. And there's always action. And there's always myth. There's always cultural, you know, societal conversations like in Titanic, and in the abyss. He has big themes. He deals in very big themes where, you know, you've got corporate, you know, in Aliens is all about the corporation, and the Abyss it was all about the corporation and the humanity of connecting with aliens underneath the water. And in Aliens, it was connected with that. And I remember I think I watched I think it was his masterclass, which, if you haven't seen, it's just wonderful to watch. But he talked about aliens. And he goes, if I would have made a movie about a bunch of Marines fighting a bunch of space roaches, it wouldn't have worked. This movie is about two mothers protecting their young. Yeah. And I was like, Holy crap. I can't believe I never saw that before. But he's, he broke it down. It was pretty fascinating to see.

John Truby 27:04
Yeah, and this is this is what I try to get across to readers in the book, which is that the many of them will understand the importance of knowing what these plot beats are for each genre. What what but for decades, there's been this idea that if you want to, you know, there's a famous line, if you want to send a message, send it Western Union. In other words, you know, don't get heavy handed with the theme. And there's a certain truth to that you don't want to be heavy handed with. But that doesn't mean that would you go to the opposite extreme. And you say, Well, I'm not going to get into theme at all, no, the real key to success is having that complex plot that gives the reader and the viewer, this really exciting, twisty kind of story that they're not expecting, but also a deeper theme with which is expressed under the surface, through the plot beats through the genre beats, that tells a larger theme that the audience can hook into without being preached to. This is the key thing, if you can combine. And that's why Why saying the book genres are plot systems, they are also theme systems. The theme systems are the part that most people do not understand and therefore are not tapping into. And if you as the writer can tap into both of those plots system and theme system, there's nobody's going to touch you, you are not going to be a whole different league.

Alex Ferrari 28:32
Right! And if you look like I mean, and I can will bring up Shawshank probably a few more times in this conversation. But when you look at Shawshank, I mean, the spiritual undertones of that film, which is not preachy, in the least they never mentioned it they never say it. It's but I mean, literally him coming out. Sorry, spoiler alert. If you haven't seen Shawshank guys, you could fast forward for about a minute or two.

John Truby 28:57
Who in the audience is going to have not seen Josh?

Alex Ferrari 29:00
I mean, if you haven't heard this fast forward about a minute, guys, but when he comes out at the end, and literally is spit out of crap into a basically a resurrection scene, and he's resurrected. There's so many themes, so many things that that is touching upon, that Frank Darabont did and see the Kingdom I'm not sure how much about Steven or was Frank, but it was so beautifully and artistically done. That that is why it connects I think at such a high level with so many people. And when I ask people about why do you like that movie? They can't put their finger on it. There's just something about that story that just makes you connect to it. Is that fair?

John Truby 29:44
I think it's one of I always thought this is one of the hardest movies to try to explain to people why it was so popular. Because on the surface it looks it's a prison escape movie.

Alex Ferrari 29:57
How simple it's basic. Right?

John Truby 29:59
You know? The guy is gonna get out of prison. Okay, so, you know, it's like, what I made one of the biggest mistakes in my, in my life. What before Titanic came out, I said, this isn't going to be successful or I know what's gonna happen? You know? It's not

Alex Ferrari 30:15
You're not the only one, I said the exact same thing. Like we all know the boat goes down, like why am I watching this

John Truby 30:20
Right! Not only do we know what's gonna happen, it's really depressing. So but you know, that shows you what I know but but the point is in Shawshank. It's not going to be up, although how you get from point A to point B, the plotting in that, and that's one of the reasons that I am such a huge fan of it is that with plotting within a confines like that is much more difficult. And, and in what he does plot wise. And then, as you just said, tying the theme, which is also expressed through his friendship. Tying that theme into that plot beat in that overall success story is brilliant. And again, I don't know either. How much of it is Stephen King, and how much he was the screenwriter for Shawshank. But I do know that it is a beautiful example of what I'm talking about in terms of knowing your plot beats, but also using them to express a unique and powerful theme.

Alex Ferrari 31:24
Right. And also, I mean, there's a love story in there between read and an Andy. I mean, there's a friendship love story there that is so powerful as well. And so it basically drives the movie that that relationship just drives the movie completely. It I mean, we should one day, John, you and I should just sit down and have a two hour conversation about just Shawshank and let's break it down for everybody because it's just one of those movies that you just like, why is it so like you're gonna look at the Godfather and get it and you could break it down. You could Goodfellas you get it? You look at Titanic, you get it? And you look at these popular films and you just go okay, I understand. You can break it down. But Shawshank is one of those slippery stories the way like it's the worst pitch. It's the worst title in history of cinema. And, and it took a while years before it actually got it started to pick up and pick it up. People started liking it. So alright, we'll get off the Shawshank for night now guys. So um, so let's talk about genre specifically, and I'm going to read off. And this is really interesting. I'm going to read them all off and then we can tie and talk about what you mean. Because there's there's the genre and then what it means I guess the theme of it or what it is a whore is religion. Action to success myth is the life process. memoir and coming of age is creating the self science fiction a Science Society culture is yes, Science is a story for crime is morality and justice comedy manners and morals Western The Rise and Fall of civilization. Gangster the corruption of business and politics fantasy, the art of living just so interesting. Detective and, and thriller, the mind and the truth. And love is the art of happiness. So some of those I understand. Yeah, but like horror and religion. I know you said it Adam and Eve is is the one of the first horror stories. Yeah. Can you just dive in a little bit of why horror is connected to religion. I mean, I understand an exorcist and things like that. But what is it? Sure theme.

John Truby 33:29
Let me let me let me just back up for a second. So your listeners have a little context for what those things that you just read off or because I was just talking about, if you want to step out from the from the crowd, from everybody else who is writing in your genre, you have to transcend the genre. Now there's three major ways you do that. One is you twist the beats, you do them instead of the normal sequence of beats, you flip that around, or they are an individual beat, which is normally done this way you do it that way you do it the reverse of the way it's normally done. That's the first way on the plotline. The second way you do it is that a mention that each genre expresses in underneath the surface deep down a life philosophy, which is a view of how to live a successful life. And the third way that you transcend the genre is that you explore the life story form, the life art form that is embedded in that in that genre. By that I mean these these these major activities that we do on our life are not just activities. They have a story or shape of a story. They are themselves a story. So for example, religion is a story and we're not just Talking about religious stories we're talking about religion itself is a story form. You talk about, you mentioned morality, morality and justice, which is the art form of the crime story. Morality is and I break it down in the book, it is its own story form. And it's expressed through story through your particular story. So when you're really getting to the deepest part of this, of each of these genres, you're not just expressing its own life philosophy, you're expressing that larger activity of life that we do that is so important, it shapes our entire life. So you mentioned the, the example of Adam and Eve, as one of the talked about as one of the first horror stories. And what do we have there we have the, the two heroes, Adam and Eve, they are in this utopian world. And they are visited by a monster in the form of a snake. And this snake gives them basically poise. And because of that, because the because they bite the apple, because they take the boys, they commit this moral crime, and who is this crime against the crime is against the Father, God the Father. And because they have made these mistakes, made this mistake, they are sentenced to eternal hell. And in other words, what they in this particular case, they are driven out of the garden, and this utopian world, into the harsh world outside, and they are now more, they will die. Religion is basically as a story form, when you analyze it as a story form. It is basically a combination of myth and horror. Because the sequence of beats that it goes through or miss beats, but the overall theme is horrible, which is, if you do the proper thing, you go to heaven. If you do the improper thing, you go to hell. And this is, and what I talked about in that whole first chapter on horror. And this deeper, these deeper themes that horror talks about is, it's hard. It's really about how do we avoid death? It's it is, and that's why it's the first genre I talk about, because it's the most, it's the most fundamental, it's the lowest level, but also the most fundamental of all genres. And it's, it's because as human beings, we're this magnificent artistic creatures, who are able to create amazing castles and, and, and beautiful symmetries in this in our entire world, and, and in our lives. And then all of a sudden, that stops, and it just disappears, it's gone. This, this is fundamentally impossible for us as human beings to get, we cannot see this. That seems so wrong. That seems so unfair. But it's a game that we will all lose. And so what do we try to do try besides horror, which is a form of way that we deal with it. religion itself is a story form that deals with it, and it says, okay, yes, you die. But if you act a certain way in life, you're going to have life after death. And if you don't act a certain way, you're going to go to hell, which is a dystopia forevermore. So this is, and this is, so it's, you know, it's punishment, reward and punishment. And, and I go through, I love the heart chapter, because I go through it. And I talk about one of the stories I talk about it is A Christmas Carol, which is one of the most influential, in my opinion, the most influential story about Christianity that there is, and it is, you know, very much this concept of, do you do you act? Well, in this life, if you don't, you're going to pay a price. Right? If you do, you will get eternal reward. And so this, these deeper art forms that each of these genres talks about, only the very top stories, explore those get into what that deeper thing is, and what I'm trying what I try to do in the in each chapter in the second half of each chapter, is explored how this genre it expresses those deeper art forms. And therefore how can you as the writer do that too. Because once you tap into that, again, you're you're dealing at a level that no other writer is dealing with. And, and, you know, it's interesting. I don't know if I, if I pointed this out to you before or not but, but the way that the genres are sequences, very important in the book, because what I found out, as I was always looking at what each life philosophy for each genre is, I realized that there's a ladder going on here, there's a ladder of enlightenment. And that's when it goes from the lowest to the highest, the lowest is our next. And then myth, and what are the highest three, the highest three are fantasy, which is the art of living detective and thriller, which is the art of the mind and truth, and love, which is the art of happiness. And so in reading, you know, I think of it I think most readers will, most writers reading the book are going to go to the genres that they specialize in. But if you read it in that sequence, you will track a sequence of enlightenment for how to live in this world, the way genres express it.

Alex Ferrari 41:14
John Hughes, you just blew my mind open open, sir, I, it's, it's this is this, this whole book is so revolutionary. And the way it approaches story is remarkable. When you go back to horror, horror is primal. Religion is primal, the stories of religion had to be told to us, in order for us to deal with a cause with the knowledge that we're gonna die. It's especially at the primal level, at the primal level, this is something that needed to happen. And then it also might have turned into control and instead of morals and like, you know, do this or you know, the big bad, you know, someone's gonna get you kind of thing. So you were talking about Christianity, and love for you, if you can look at, let's say, an Eastern philosophy, or Eastern religion like Buddhism, which doesn't have as much, it doesn't have a hell, it doesn't have the hell is this we are in hell, we are trying to escape this hell into enlightenment, which is to, to leave my to leave this illusion, and go into enlightenment everlasting. So it's a kind of a twist on the Christian story. Did you talk a little bit about that? And because we've been taught, we're talking about enlightenment?

John Truby 42:31
Absolutely. Because if you again, if you, if you look at all of these art forms of life, through the prism of story and story beats, it immediately breaks down so clearly, and you can see oh, this is why this is this way. And that's that way. So for example, Christianity and Western religions are very much goal focused, and it's very much goal focused to what are the things what are the actions I need to do to get to that afterlife to defeat mortality? Right. Eastern religion is the opposite of that. And what is the difference in terms of the basic seven structure steps that I talked about? Starting with weakness deed, second step is desire? Well, what is Buddhism but taking that desire step and says, No, reverse it. The trick is not to desire because your desires will take you down the road of addiction and take you into love of false value that is not going to be good for you. So it's very much anti materialistic. It's very much anti live for the future and future meaning after you're dead. No, it's how do you live now? No, all religions have moral stories. Because they're all about how do you live this life? In something like Christianity it's about how do you live this life to get you into the future life? Isn't religion is not that it's how do you live this life best and of course, keep in mind that you're also doing but much more hierarchical societies that when these when these particular region religions evolved, and so but but the point is in certain if you look at it from these basic structures steps you see the the fundamental ways in story terms of how these different religions express the right way to live but they're all expressing a view of how to live well.

Alex Ferrari 44:44
Right their roadmap on how to live basically that's what a religion generally it's a set of either philosophies or rules in Western is more rules and Eastern is more philosophy based on how to live a good life a proper life and but I love that you did You said in regards to the Western religions are much more focused on goals because you're absolutely right they are. And the Eastern philosophies and religions are not like Taoism and, and they're completely differently focused, but they all have a story on how to live life. And I bring this up because of as storytellers we can start tapping into these because these are very powerful themes. We're talking about extremely powerful themes. And, you know, if you start analyzing, I mean, something like The Matrix, the themes in there are so multi layered. Yeah, and goes so deep in the philosophy and philosophical terms, that it's, it's mind blowing, you can watch the matrix 100 times the first one 100 times and still get something new out of it, because it's just so dense.

John Truby 45:54
Well, it's in the book, I go, I talk a lot about the matrix. And one of the things I talk about is the concept of the chosen one, which is a major element in many myths, stories. And of course, the matrix is basically a combination of science fiction and myth. And that says, part of the reason that it has such power is it combines these two forms. And one of this this element of the chosen one, and a distinguished that was something you also see in science fiction that you don't see in religion you don't see in myth stories, which is the niches Superman concept the also known as the over man, and what the differences between the chosen one versus the overmanned character and Neo is basically he's, he's both his vote. In my opinion, they don't quite get to the level of requirement in philosophy, although it's a very philosophically savvy story. They don't get quite to the level of the overmanned but then, but then as I pointed out in the book, no writer has ever been able to express in, in fictional terms what the over when each is over man character would would actually be because he's a character who is of a higher level morality than than humankind.

Alex Ferrari 47:18
But isn't that isn't that Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, you know, Confucius and the list goes on and on.

John Truby 47:24
Yes, if it is commonly thought that these great religious characters are the closest actual human beings to get to Nietzsche his view of the over man, but in case of the matrix, they were they're able to ask the questions, but they don't quite go far enough in terms of and they probably are doing that on purpose. They, you know, there's a, again, there's a fear that a lot of people have, I don't want to be too, too forceful in my thematics. Because I don't want to hit people over the head with I don't want to be preachy. And you definitely don't want to do that. But the matrix is obviously one of the great science fiction films ever made. And as I say, I talk a lot about it as an IT, but especially in terms of it's because it's not science fiction, it's not myth, it's the combination of the two. And that's what kicks it to this higher low,

Alex Ferrari 48:22
And obviously has some kick ass kung fu in it, that doesn't hurt. For for its day as well, which is, you know, the term that, as far as storytellers go and spectacle is part of a spectacle is part of the storytelling process. Avatar is spectacle, as well,

John Truby 48:40
Talking about what you're talking about, there is a sub form of action, which is basically the samurai movie, it's the same thing in Star Wars, it's the it's the same thing in a lot of these movies that have the big spectacle. So you're talking myth, action, and science fiction, that is an incredibly powerful combination of forms. And one of these I talked about in the book is that it's really a great technique for success is to combine genres that are not normally combined.

Alex Ferrari 49:12
Now, right, mixing them throwing them all together,

John Truby 49:14
Exactly. But But doing in ways and there's a reason why certain ones are not combined. As I mentioned earlier, some of them come into conflict. They're, they're fundamentally different messages. And they're fundamentally different sequences of plot beats. So there's certain ones that don't go together. But if you can figure out how to put ones together that are not normally connected. The fact that it's so new, the fact that it's never been seen before on the worldwide market means everybody goes, Wow, that thing's incredible. Let me give you an example. Inception. Inception is a combination of science fiction, and heist. Science fiction, also known as caper. It's a science fiction caper story. Now, nobody does that. Nobody does that. They do it by doing it in such a way that, you know, with the kind of brilliance that they can do it. They, they had one of the great science fiction movies. And this is what you try to do in terms of use, because you think, well, if it's a genre world, and I have to hit all these beats that everybody else is hitting, how do I do something that's original that stands out? Well, as they say, one way you do is you twist the beats. Another way you do it is you mix genres that are not normally mixed together. But again, the main way to do it, is to get into that thematic level to express the life philosophy, and to express that deeper art form of life.

Alex Ferrari 50:41
So just looking at your genres here, which is I mean, I would suggest every writer take that list, I read off, photocopy and put it on their, on their wall, because you could just start looking like well, what if I threw a comedy Western, that's Blazing Saddles, okay. And you start throwing things together, and the one that I just threw together as we were talking, horror love story. That's Bride of Frankenstein, essentially. Right?

John Truby 51:07
That would be an example. Yeah, but there's not that's not a very common one is not it is not, it's a great idea for a combination

Alex Ferrari 51:15
Because it's just it's you're taking the highest and the lowest on the, on the on the ladder, and slamming them together where they shouldn't mix because love is at a much higher quote unquote, vibration than horror, which is at a very low, primal, right? Vibration, if you will,

John Truby 51:33
Especially when you break it down into structured terms. And the plot beats, you see exactly why, which is the desire. And the desire line is one of the most important things that determines that defines the genre in terms of how it works. What is it is Ireland? What is it Caroline is the goal of the hero? Okay, what does the hero want in this story, and so that the desire Line tracks the entire plot. So all those plot beats, or, or landmarks on that desire line, on that goal line there steps beats to getting that goal. So the one of the reasons that Har is the lowest level is its desire line is the lowest desire you can have, which is to escape. And so it's a very reactive desire line. Love is the most active and it's the highest level in terms of, it's not just I want to form an attraction with another person. No, it's how do I live my life in love with another human being, so that both of us are at the highest level of human being that we can be. So combining that escape with how do I find that person who I can be my best self with? That's why they're almost never combined. But that's, that is the challenge, but that's always the opportunity, which is if you can figure out how to do that. Nobody else is doing it. And you stand out and everybody says, Wow, that person is brilliant.

Alex Ferrari 53:11
Well, that's what exactly what happened with Jim Hart when he wrote Dracula, Bram Stoker's Dracula with Francis Coppola, that is a perfect example of a love horror story. And this is pretty, I mean, as beautifully executed of that genre of that mixture of genre that I've ever seen, because it is a true love story. Pretty off

John Truby 53:32
I admit to you, I have not seen it since it came out so I don't really remember it.

Alex Ferrari 53:38
But it is about remember I made a post that literally the tagline is love never dies. Because it's this you know, gender you know, multi, you know, generational love story between the two main characters. And it's just, you know, reincarnation and multiple, I mean, it's just a pretty deep conversation. But again, that's one of those examples of that. Now, Ken, let's because a lot of people are probably listening going, okay, great, multiple genres. Great. Let's throw let's throw some movies out. And let's see how we can see what those genres are combined and see if we can kind of give examples so people kind of understand why certain things are successes. So we've talked about avatar and the matrix Fight Club let's see if you can you can you do something with Fight Club.

John Truby 54:24
Fight Club is really interesting. And I talk about fight club, in the in the detective story. And I talk about it as because I talked about really high level detective stories are about the mind itself. They're about how does the mind soul problems? How do we How does the mind operate at the highest level which is truth? And this end quote is a detective form. The way you live a good life is you become very good at understanding Finding where is the where does the truth lie. And then, of course, in a social world, with all the facades that we face day every day, that's very hard to do. But it's essential, it can mean our life, we could die if we don't make that we don't have that understanding. And so what you get with Fight Club is, it's a story about I talk about it as one of the sub genres of transcended detective stories, which is a story about the self, the story of the Senator Lee, literally, the first thing that we talked about, we were talking about, you know, what is story story is, we live through story from the day we're born, because we're, we start to immediately form that sense of I am a unique individual, I am a self. And I'm different from that person, who may be an ally, to me, that's mom, or is a little bit older, people who try to prevent me from getting my desires, those are opponents, right. And so we formed this sense of self. But that sense of self is not necessary. And it usually becomes hardened into someone I saw ideology, which we talked about. But at the level of Fight Club, what happens is that and there's other stories like this, to deal with this, like breathless, which is a famous French New Wave story, which is, when you get into the technological world, it's highly technological, the ability to divide the self from the image becomes magnified exponentially. And as soon as you are able to divide the image of the self from the self, then the ability to essentially destroy yourself goes way up. And what you get there in Fight Club, is, you get a guy who is he is in deep trouble, right? And so he creates again, I don't want to give it away to anybody who's never

Alex Ferrari 57:10
Again, for it fast forward about a minute or two right now, if you haven't seen Fight Club,

John Truby 57:13
Yeah. But he creates this alter ego, who we think is his ally, becomes his opponent. But it's actually the image of himself that he would like to be. But in doing that, and dividing himself off from himself, and having it be somebody who is basically, you know, the Id run rampant. He goes down a series of path of destruction that can only you know, they've, he basically pulls back from it at the end. But it is a very destructive sequence. So that's why I think fightclub was very unique and very advanced, in terms of what it's trying to do, of focusing on the war within the self,

Alex Ferrari 58:05
Which is a war that we're all fighting. Yeah, throughout life, you know, they were always get That's the voice in our head, telling us not to eat the cheesecake, or to eat the cheesecake and then beat ourselves up afterwards, later that night.

John Truby 58:20
And that's why it's so fundamental to the mind itself, which is the is somebody talked about throughout the book, that all this comes off the ability of the human mind, to project to create an image of not only itself, but of anything. And so, so examples you just gave a perfect example. I am me, but I'm also somebody who would like to eat that cheesecake, but I know I can project forward, if I eat that cheesecake, I'm gonna add five pounds into I'm really gonna like the way I look with five pounds, and all that extra fat. No, I'm not, but I really want it. So we're at war with ourselves. Every day, in every decision that we make, there is some level of conflict going on. And if you don't learn to manage that, and of course, Fight Club has many stories zoo just takes it to its logical extreme, you get this massive destruction.

Alex Ferrari 59:16
You know, I want to go a little deeper into what we're talking about here about the self because I think this is and the ability to project because as storytellers and anybody else listening who might not be a storyteller, I think it's fascinating to understand that the reason why stories even work is because of our own ability to project into the future to connect with the characters. That's why when a dog watches it doesn't, doesn't do so well. Unless there's, you know, a cat in the video or something. But generally speaking, that ability in when we're all these examples we're talking about, let me throw an example out to you because this is such a classic. It was one of my top 10 films of All time and arguably one of my favorite Stanley Kubrick films, The Shining. Yeah, there is so much going on in The Shining. It is such a dense, dense film. But on the on the surface, it's not every I think every single movie we've kind of brought out on the surface, it doesn't seem like what's going on behind. There's multiple layers about it. There's something psychological about the shining, that just just digs into you in a way that normal horror. Doesn't doesn't do, because it's yeah, it's horrific. And yeah, there's some graphic Gore in it, but it's, it's not?

John Truby 1:00:43
Well, Alex, that's, that's because you put your finger on one of the main transcendent our films ever made. Right? It is a trend, it's because it transcends the form. And I talk in a book, I break it down, I talk about why is this a transcendent horror story. And one of the things is that, you know, in a basic horror story, you've got this external monster, who's constantly attacking, and we get the problems are hitting the same beat, and bam, bam, bam, and so and so the very low level plot, that's why Asia heart is probably the least respected over all genres, although when it's done at a high level

Alex Ferrari 1:01:24
Silence of the Lambs, yeah, right.

John Truby 1:01:28
Well, Silence of the Lambs this is actually thriller, but thriller, and I talked about this in the book thriller is actually a combination of detective and horror. Got it. And, but but the point is, with with the shining, you get, instead of the external opponent, he is the external police, both the hero and the external opponent, because he is projecting this image. And what he's really fighting against the prison that he is, in is of his own making. And so you know, he's his, his sense of responsibility, his drive to be successful, you know, his, and it's so great that it's about a writer. We all know what it's like, you know, all work, and no play makes Jack a dull boy, generically. You know, and he is so driven, because he's going off to this Overlook Hotel, to try to write this book. Right. And, and so all that's doing is putting him into this, this haunted house, basically, it's a haunted hotel, but puts him in a haunted house. And I talk in in our chapter, that haunted house is simply the character's great fear made physical and then we force them to live in the opponent, especially in a transcendent horror story, is the opponent's the heroes greatest fear turned into a character that then attacks him constantly. Now, most horror stories don't get to that level, they don't get to that metaphorical thematic level. But the shining does. And and one of the things that that I talked about in The Shining dim that why it's so great is because they connect the heroes, great flaws, weakness need, with the flaw of the house with the flaw the hotel, the hotel has a ghost. And it's the same ghost that Jack has only Jack's goes to the beginning, which is that he's gotten in trouble with social services, with physically abusing his son, whereas the ghost for the house is that this guy murdered his family. But what you see there is Jack's ghost, Jack's weakness is at a much lower level than that of the house. But it plants the seeds of potential for him to commit that same crime at the very end of the story. So there's just all kinds of reasons why the shining is this transcendent horror story, in my opinion, one of the all time greats. And it's, but it again, it goes to that idea that if you want to get to that level, as a writer, you've got to go to the transcendent level. And you got to know how to do that. And so and that's why, basically, this book was not just about how do you write a story in this form? It's how do you write a great story in this form?

Alex Ferrari 1:04:20
And I love that what you're saying is like, instead of the outside in, it's inside out, yes, fight and that's what makes that horror movie. So so because it is it's a representation of what we deal with on a daily basis, which is more horrific than any monster trying to come at us. It is the monster inside that little voice, that little thing that is being projected out to an extreme, obviously in the story, but that's probably one of the reasons why it is so unsettling and that's the best word I can use for that though. It is on settling. It is horrific in a unset way where, you know, Friday the 13th or nightmare before November, and I'm St. They are just fun rides of like I get scared, right? There's none of that in the shining, the shining, I always said shining was psychological I couldn't, I didn't have the language to understand what was going on, I think you've finally just helped me with that.

John Truby 1:05:19
And one of the major things for transcending every form, every genre is this personal psychological element. In other words, what we're trying to do is because Because keep in mind, the hero of each of these genres, is in some way a mythical character. It is the cowboy, the detective, and so on. They're an iconic character. So and there's great power in that that's why they're the genres. And that's why the genres are the All Stars of the story world. They've got the each one is led by an iconic type. But the trick then is use the power of that type, but then individualize it with those psychological dramatic elements. That's why I talk in the book about the really top transcend stories in every genre, take that, that genre plot system, combine it with drama techniques, which is not actually a genre, technically speaking genre. But it's, it's, it's story techniques that are very personal, with a very highly detailed hero, with a very personal opponent, typically within the family, typically, to deal with moral problems, and so on. So you're taking those kinds of techniques, combining them with these genre beats and genre elements and type elements. That combination is incredibly powerful. And shiny is just an example of that. You got all the elements of horror, but it's coming in at this really super personal psychological level, that you can't watch it and not think, man, especially if you're a writer, not think, hey, that could be me.

Alex Ferrari 1:06:56
It is it is pulling strings, that you as a writer know what strings you're pulling, but the audience member is not aware of it. Right? And Hitchcock did that so beautifully. In that special in that run of 678 films that he did that were you know, from psycho on that were, they just connect and they're pulling on certain strings in your psyche, that you walk out going, I don't know what I just went through. It's like when you watch the shining, you're like, I can't express to you, the Shawshank I can't express to you what I'm feeling or how I got there. So I think this is a, this would be a really interesting exercise. Can we go through a few of the genres? And can you give an example of a transcendent film in the genre?

John Truby 1:07:43
Absolutely. So Action. Action, first of all, you got to start with Seven Samurai with the greatest action film ever made, and it's transcended. And I'd make the argument that it's probably the best film ever made. Now, obviously, that that's a that's a personal opinion, but I go through a lot of reasons why it is and why is it because it is a it is a action epic, it's basically combining acts taking action, the act the key action elements, putting it to it, the epic level which in epic, the definition the story definition of Epic is the fate of the nation is determined by the actions of a single individual or family. And so, when you and by the way, this is one of the ways that all of the genres can go to the transcendent level, you take the form and you make an epic out of it, you take it to the national level. So seven you got to start with Seven Samurai other other story action stories that define the form diehard is is to this day, it is beat for beat. It is great stories if you look at you go all the way back to the original great action, great action epic, which is the Iliad. And you look at and in this in the book I talk about about sub genres, certain sub genres of each form. And the because action is about keeping score. Actions about do use How do you succeed and so in anything where you keep score, that's what we're action is involved. So I talked about some form of sports stories. And there you've got things like Rocky which is a combination of sports story plus love story. And you've got what I think is probably the best quote sports story film ever made, which is the hustler brilliant script. Absolutely brilliant. Yeah, who also did what was the chest thing that that that was on? It was on Netflix a couple years ago?

Alex Ferrari 1:09:51
Oh, um, the intimate intimidation game. No, no intimidation game. No. Yeah, the God I know which one Queens gambit. Thank you. Thanks.

John Truby 1:10:00
Written by the same guy does Queens gambit which is also terrific. But then you look at you look at also talk a lot in the action. form of Mad Mad Max Fury row. Oh, yeah, I mean, this thing is just No, it's very simplistic action on the level that you talked about action as the cleanest desert island of St. John. And basically it's restored here. We go to there, we get to there we find it, there's nothing there we go back, straight, literally straight line run right there. But the way that he adds, he kicks those action elements up to the epic level and adds horror to it. Again, it's as good as it gets in that action for

Alex Ferrari 1:10:46
Now, let's talk about myth. Yeah.

John Truby 1:10:49
Well, with myth you've got, you know, again, you go back to the original I talk about the Odyssey as one of the keys to is one of the transcendent ones. Lord of the Rings, of course, is in myth form, I break down Lord of the Rings as the ultimate male myth story. Also talk about Wizard of Oz as a female Mr. It's one of the first and it she goes on a journey, but the way she handles the beads is very different than a male in that story. also talks about Star Wars A New Hope. This story is a combination of that four or five genres. The most important one is myth. And, and that brace basically brought on the modern world of film, everything, everything after Star Wars, it talked about this right in the opening chapter, the book, everything in everything before Star Wars was was primarily a single genre movie, everything after his multi genre movie, and it was, it was all that because Hollywood, Hollywood execs realized, oh my god, if we mix up these genres, we get four times the plot beats than if we have one genre. And and, and the fact that its primary genre was myth, and that combination is key. Mixing genres. Myth is the most popular genre form there is. So and that's why, for example, James Cameron Hughes always uses it.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:25
But why, why is it so popular,

John Truby 1:12:29
Because it transcends cultural differences. So for example, comedy is very tough to get a worldwide hit with because so many of the references are to that particular culture. And even within a subculture, where as myth, the story beats of the myth journey, are, are something that everyone will pass through, because what myth is, as they talked about, in terms of what that art form is that that myth is actually dealing with, it's the life journey. And so it's, it's a, it's a metaphorical expression of the life journey, we will all go through. And that's something everybody around the world in any culture can understand and can be moved by. So So in terms of you get Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Wizard of Oz, I talk about Black Panther, extremely important film on for a number of reasons. And, and Avatar, those are the big ones.

Alex Ferrari 1:13:27
Coming of Age, which is also really interesting one,

John Truby 1:13:30
Yes. Coming of age, I talked about that in the memoir chapter, because they're both what they are fiction and nonfiction versions of creating the self. And so with coming of age, you've got things like moonlight. Cinema, Paradiso, Koto, recently, was tremendously powerful. I think you look at that movie, and you think, you know, that that was basically TV movie from the 80s. Right? What Why would that be? Why would that be so popular and so powerful? Well, it's because the things of the TV movies of the 80s did, which was tell a dramatic story that is highly personal, that is highly moving, but done it with a twist. That's really powerful. You know, it's like when King's speech came out, won the Academy Award. You know, that's a TV movie when he's talking about well, what they're doing there is very powerful. It's again, you using genre with tremendous dramatic elements and that combination is unbeatable. So you got caught up and and of course you've got To Kill a Mockingbird

Alex Ferrari 1:14:43
And yeah, now one of my favorite genres is sci fi. Yeah, I can I can. I mean, ones that I think that do it and now tell me if you agree or not, Blade Runner, alien but aliens throwing horror in there as well, too. Terminator, Jesus and Terminator two, both are bat at the abyss, you just got that James campus.

John Truby 1:15:06
Those are what you're talking about a lot of those are at least some of those are they're not primarily science fiction, in turn, why? Because, yes, they have the science fiction overlay in terms of the world in terms of setting the future, for example, but what you what you want to look at when you're trying to identify what is the primary genre that's being done here is where the structured beats, what are the plot beats that they're tracking? Okay. So when you're talking about science fiction, and sometimes it's difficult to pull them apart, you can't see what a what the primary form is. But I in science fiction I talk about the matrix is primarily science fiction, but it's got a myth addition to it. Of course, you got 2001 arrival, which is a female myth, science fiction story. It's very holistic, it's not about battle. It's about preventing battles from happening. Very advanced this film very advanced me huge fan of that. So and you got things like Inception and inner star? These guys, these guys are the best in terms of film, understanding techniques of screenwriting, I'm not talking about necessarily, would they make a great science fiction novel, but in terms of science fiction film, using the benefits the strengths of the film medium, there's nothing there's there's no rebirth. Nice guy.

Alex Ferrari 1:16:43
One of my favorite as well, comedy, I love to hear what is a transcendent comedy?

John Truby 1:16:51
Well, first of all, comedy is really interesting, because in a way, you could argue that it is the opposite of every other form. Almost almost every other form is about accomplishing a goal. Comedy is about failure as a goal. It's about every other genre is about how things work in some way. You know, we've got problems, but they're fixable, and we're going to society is going to succeed. Well, comedies about how things don't work, right, how things are screwed up, and how the hero is incompetent, and yet somehow succeeds at the end, in spite of his incompetence. To me, the I use a lot of TV examples, because I believe that especially over the last 20 years since the sopranos, but we're really farther back to Seinfeld. TV has overcome film, in terms of the best storytelling in the world. And I think it's even close. And so I use a lot of TV examples in in comedy. The biggest example I used transcend a comedy is Seinfeld, Seinfeld revolutionary, in my opinion, even greater than then sopranos, which I put number two is the greatest series ever made. But Seinfeld, the excellence the level of excellence, per episode, per season, over nine seasons, there's nothing that matches that level of brilliance. But it's rare. It was revolutionary in terms of character. It was revolutionary in terms of plot, in comedy on revolutionary in terms of character, because you had four equal characters, not just the star, four equal characters, and you had their own like, in the classic sense of the term, that was unheard of. It was unheard of at the time, you did not do that. Right? Not just one, four of them. And then it was revolutionary and plot because you were tracking for typically four different storylines within a 22 minute episode. And they track for each one of those characters and then woven together with a kick at the end, in terms of how it all wove together, you never know really how it's going to come together. And it always did. And it was always brilliant. So in terms of comedy, I think you got to start with Seinfeld I talked about a lot about Little Miss Sunshine,

Alex Ferrari 1:19:18
Which is just watched that the other day Oh, so beautifully

John Truby 1:19:22
Groundhog Day. Perfection, perfection and the most philosophical comedy ever written by far by far. And and an interesting I talk a lot about Wedding Crashers in terms of combining Comedy genres. Because you're there you're again, why because you're getting the densification of plot, and a lot of times comedies don't have the densest plot. So what do you do? You've combined comedy forms. In this particular case they combined buddy picture with romantic comedy. Both Both of them are very popular. You put the two of them together and it's almost never done. You put the two of them together, and you have this massive hit

Alex Ferrari 1:20:09
In something like Oh god, it's just I mean, it will Dumb and Dumber. Is a buddy film mix with a quote unquote love story.

John Truby 1:20:17
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 1:20:21
But you started looking at the biggest hits of all time as far as comedies are concerned. And you can start seeing how they it's not a simple, right straight line as far as like, Oh, it's just a buffoon, you know, doing stuff. It's, it gets complex. But the thing about common is that when you said Wedding Crashers, I was like, Oh, that doesn't seem very complex. But with the second you said, are those two general like, I guess it's, it's not on face surface? On a surface level? You really can't tell. That's what's about with other genres you can't.

John Truby 1:20:54
It's also the level of the quality of the writing. What I've said that early on that a lot of writers know that you need to mix genres, but they don't know how, because mixing is very difficult, because you don't what is the main line? What's the main desire line? Who's the hero who's driving the story? Who's the main opponent? What are the main beats that we're going to talk about, so on and so forth. So it's hard to do. So when you can mix genres in a seamless way. So the audience can't see it. That's brilliant. That that's that is, that is the level of craft that we're talking about. And that's why I wrote the book, which was to say, here's how you do it. Right? You know, these are all these great films that we love. Well, you know, what she has to I have to write something on that level? Well, it's technique, it goes down to technique, and using the old things of three act structure, and so on and so forth. That ain't gonna get you anywhere close to that the technique that's required to, to write these kind of transcendent stories.

Alex Ferrari 1:21:52
You're talking about scripts, and movies and novels and stories that are at the top 1% of nought point 1% of all stories being told right now, you're literally laying things out that these are the top five or the top 10 screenplays. Yep, of every year at the Oscars like this is what this is the kind of storytelling we're talking about, is to elevate yourself to that level. Yes, by understanding these genres and being able to combine them. And I think that so many, so many young writers don't understand that. The key, as we've been saying, in this entire conversation, is combination of genres, because that's what's interesting. We're far beyond the straight hero, woman in distress villain hero saves her from the trip. We're way beyond that, at this point.

John Truby 1:22:44
Well, you pointed out earlier, the viewer is so knowledgeable about storing because he's seen 1000s of them from the earliest age, that you know, I talked about this, and Detective Detective Story is a game that the author plays with the audience, can I get you to the end of this thing before you figure out who did it. And it's gotten harder and harder because the audience is so savvy, they know what tells to look for in terms of oh, that means that that person is probably not guilty. And that means they probably are guilty, and so on. So you got to take it, one step above that. And and what I'm saying in this book is, that is how all these genres work. The level of story that is required story mastery that is required to succeed in any of these genres is so high. And what I'm showing you, you know, me from things we've done in the past together, I'm all about being honest with riders in terms of this is what is required to be in that competition to be at that level. You know, it's like, it's like you want to play professional sports, you type at the top point 1% athletes, right? You want to play at that level, this is what you got to do. This is a training you got to get and so what I and that's why this book is 700 pages, because to break down each of these 14 genres, to the degree required to write professionally in those genres. That was the kind of detail that was required.

Alex Ferrari 1:24:17
And unlike sports, anyone could intended if you have a typewriter and a brain that understands this, you're not limited by genetics, right? Because you and I are not going to the NFL or the NBA or the MLB or NFL.

John Truby 1:24:32
I have always wanted to be the point guard for the for the Lakers.

Alex Ferrari 1:24:37
And I wanted to be a wide receiver for the Miami Dolphins. You know, it's like it's just wasn't in our cards or we're doing God's work though. I'll go with that. I'll go we're doing God's work. We're trying to tell better stories out there. But that's something that it's kind of a reality bomb and truth that this is what you need to do to try Ansem to really get to a higher level of storytelling, if, if this is the craft that you want to go down. Look, we all aim to be that top 1%. But you have a better chance if you start understanding the technique a little bit more and use. And there's only so many times you can read a Tarantino script or a Shane Black script or an Aaron Sorkin script. It's kind of like reading, in many ways, unless you really understand technique. It's like reading a physics equation. Exactly. And someone's telling you this, this really is important. I'm like, I kind of understand what x is. But what is why that go?

John Truby 1:25:39
What if you don't know what you're looking for? You read those scripts. And what that's really that was a really fun script, it was really great. You have no clue as to why what is really structurally going on, that produces those effects. That's why technique is so important. And added, you know, I talked to us that sports analogy again, you know, these guys that the top athletes in their field, they weren't. They didn't just show up on the court being super talented from the beginning. Yeah, they probably had some real DNA, great natural ability in certain ways. However, they also have been getting training, coaching, deep training, probably from the age of six years old, if you want to get to the professional level. So what I'm what I try to do with this book, whereas as I mentioned earlier, it's not just how do you write the shot? Or how do you write a great one, because that's the what's what's going to be required to get set you above everybody else and get you into that 1% You got to get professional level training. Right, you got to know what to look for. And you got to know the techniques for producing it yourself.

Alex Ferrari 1:26:50
Now in the detective genre, things like knives out more recently, yeah, that I feel did a really amazing job because when I watch television shows that are like, you know, let's say procedurals, you know, cop shows, which are, you know, they're everywhere. I've gotten to the point where I could watch them and my wife and I, oh, watch him. Oh, sit there going. It's a janitor. No. And then as you and your rights that game, you're like, how far can I go till I figure it out? Yeah. And at a certain point, you're like, Well, there's only one character left that has to be that person. So it's just kind of like in TV, you kind of run out of time to do that. But in a feature or in a show, let's say if it's a long show, you have more time to kind of throw a lot of red herrings out at people. But in your opinion, what are some transcendent detective stories? Obviously, you know, we'll go back to to Sir Arthur Conan Doyle who I think it was Edgar Allan Poe, who created that detective story. But gone, Doyle really took it to another place.

John Truby 1:27:51
Well, you know, I think Sherlock Holmes is still the greatest detective ever. And, but But you're right. Edgar Allan Poe created the form and hidden and had many of the beats that are still the key beats in the form. I mean, this guy Edgar Allan Poe was was so underrated in terms of his influence in the world, in the history of story. Because he not only was probably the premier master of the horror form, and what I call the psychological horror form, where you're getting that Stephen King thing with the psycho psychological elements, infusing the horror and making it even greater. He also created the detective form two radically different forms in certain ways, opposite forms. So I mean, you know, that's an incredible achievement. Um, Sherlock Holmes, to this day is probably the most popular character in storytelling and in television. One of the main ways that you pitch a show is Sherlock Holmes doing X. You know, house was Sherlock Holmes was pitching Sherlock Holmes in a hospital you know. And and what was The Mentalist was pitched as? What would happen if Sherlock Holmes and Angelina Angelina Jolie had a baby. I mean, it's just incredibly influential. But in terms of transcendent ones, I go back to vertigo. Which is, I think in many people in terms of film historians, it's in the top 10 of films ever made. But I break it down extensively in the book in terms of why is it a transcend detective story, what are the key techniques that kick in it kicked it up to that level and make it to this day that great more recently I think knives out did a lot of unique flips to the form that was very necessary now because detective story is almost completely left film and gone to television. police procedure is an example. As you say, Detective form is the most popular form in television worldwide, not just the US worldwide, but it's for that reason, it's rarely seen in film. But you have talked about Chinatown. My opinion, probably the most creative. Transcend transcendent detective story of the last 100 years is Murder on the Orient Express. And I don't want to get into why that is. But some of the things that Agatha Christie who is still in the top three in terms of detective writers, the things that she is doing there that that thematically have so much more powerful than the normal detective story, or just you just phenomenal. So I have great respect for her on the Orient Express. And, and so Chinatown and and then in terms of I talked about transcendent detective story where we're talking about the mind. The key film there is Rush Limbaugh. Oh, because you're right, were influential.

Alex Ferrari 1:31:08
But then but they also he also created a new genre of story. Oh, of course, I did that multiple times in his career, but with Russia, man, there's like the Russia mon movie like, yeah,

John Truby 1:31:19
It's the Russia mon effect. And now you can't do that without somebody saying, oh, yeah, you're doing the Russia mon effect. Yeah, he he now owns that.

Alex Ferrari 1:31:28
I mean, yeah, it was it's a historic one incident from three different perspectives, all in the same. And then you have to make the choice who's telling the truth. Right. Yeah, I mean, not only that, but it's a beauty of how we shot it. And all that stuff is crazy. Another genre love the love story. I love to hear your opinion and transcendent love stories.

John Truby 1:31:49
I could have picked all kinds of things here is just such a beautiful form. The problem with love story is that so many people write it. You know, it is romance is the most popular genre in novels, by far, by far. And romantic comedy. It's a it's a lovely combination of romance and comedy. It's extremely difficult to write well, and because it's been written so many times, again, you get that problem that you get with horror, which is you just doing the basic one. It's predictable. You can't succeed with that. But recently, I think some ones that are really stood out are Silver Linings Playbook. Yeah. And 500 Days of Summer. Yep. A you know, in the in kind of an indie thing, small level thing, but super creative in the script. Super creative and how it is flipping a lot of the beats of love story. I think you have to go back to When Harry Met Sally. As masterpiece, we Yeah, it's certainly in the top three of romantic comedies ever made. And I go back to its predecessor, which is still in the top three, which is Philadelphia Story.

Alex Ferrari 1:33:09
Ah, yeah. I mean, yeah. And then of course, there's,

John Truby 1:33:14
You look at you look at Alex, you look at the you look at that again, and it's basically a stage play, but you'll look at it again. And you will see techniques that are still used predominantly in the form. Because what we have here is we have the female lead with three male suitors. And it is the where does that come from? All comes from Jane Austen. Jane Austen is the mother of romantic comedy. She created the form, she is the master and everybody else is using her techniques. But Philadelphia Story does them beautifully in the sense that it the whole point of the love stories and not just about the guy and the girl. It's about comparing, comparing love. It's comparing marriages, it's comparing, in this case, the men because you have three very different kinds of men who will produce three very different kinds of marriages with her, and the way that they treat her and the way they look at her. And so it's just

Alex Ferrari 1:34:18
Again like my mom, it's like Mamma mia, Philadelphia stores kind of like Mamma Mia. And

John Truby 1:34:22
Remind me how that works.

Alex Ferrari 1:34:24
Mamma Mia was the three fathers. Oh, they were trying to figure out who the father is and the seizures are and and then they throw the daughter and and there's Meryl Streep singing Alba. And

John Truby 1:34:37
Yeah, I don't necessarily think of Mamma Mia with Philadelphia Story. But you make a good point you made Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:34:44
Exactly. And then if even going back farther in cinemas, like it happened one night with Clark Gable. That was another one. And I mean, you can't talk about romantic comedies. You know, you know politically correct or not Annie Hall is still masterpiece. Oh, yeah. I mean, is what you can separate the director. That movie is a masterpiece and it based the form of modern date romantic comedies, would you agree?

John Truby 1:35:12
Absolutely. I it is, unfortunately, because of the person. And I'm not making any judgment one way or the other. We can't talk about him. But in terms of which cannot be denied that any Hall is one of the three greatest romantic comedies and majorly transcends the form main

Alex Ferrari 1:35:37
Events in it was a 1980 that came out I think it was like 79 He 77 Yeah, something like that. It was around that time. Can you imagine that time of it's, it's, it transcends today, if that movie came out of transcendence. is it's such an influential film. There's two authors I want to just ask you about because I think both these authors transcend their genres, in so many ways, and the first one is Shakespeare. And what he was able to do, not only in one genre and multiple genres, what is going on in his storytelling that connects so much with all of us? Because he was a playwright, like many other playwrights of his day, but there's something about his storytelling. What is it about the themes of like, I mean, obviously, Romeo and Juliet, you know, is the ultimate love story tragedy? You know, you know, King Lear, Macbeth, Hamlet, I mean, Hamlet, arguably one of the most perfect stories ever written? These, what is he doing? on a on a nuts and bolts level that makes us connect so much with his storytelling?

John Truby 1:36:48
Well, you know, it's such a crucial question. That's why I talk about it quite a bit in the book. And we talk about it both in the tragedies, and in the comedies. And his, his skill is equally in both of those areas, I think most people would say is tragedies are, are at the highest level. But that may be because of the bias towards serious storytelling as opposed to Congress. And I'm not sure that that's justified. But having said that, you know, when I'm in my story class, I've always talked about him, as you know, we all consider him the greatest writer of all time. And one reason for that is that of every level of story of every level of technique, whether it be plot, character, theme, etc, etc, he is the best at that level, dialogue, he is the best at that level. So so, you know, we could go on forever in terms of what he's doing in the book I talk about in the tragedies I talked about one of the tricks that he uses, is that he matches the story with the psychological flaw of the character at that age. Zone. So in, in the romantic tragedy of Romeo and Juliet, if the tragedy evolves from the flaws of these two young people, they're very young, I think they're 14 or something in the in the play. It could be wrong, but they're very young. But but this is from the tragedy evolves from the overwhelming passion of first law, and the inability of these young people to understand how they can put not only deal with their, their families, but how they can more importantly, deal with their own passion. And that's where the true that's where the true tragedy lies. You then go to Hamlet, Hamlet is a young adult. And so the great flaw for Hamlet is he is trying to make moral sense of the world. And his flaw is not that he's not normally talked about as well. He didn't know how to make a decision. He didn't know how to act. Well know what his flaw is. He is so conscious of the moral conundrum that he is dealing with, and whether the right and wrong of what his response is going to be that it leads to the tragedy that ultimately kills him. And this is the flaw of a young person, a young adult who is still formulating their moral code. Then you get up to a Macbeth Macbeth is middle aged. And what is the key flaw there? It's when you're in middle age, it's all about ambition. You know, it's it's it's it's, it's how far do you go to get the life success that you're looking for? And then we jump way up to lear. That is the flaw of an old man. That is a flaw of somebody who does not cannot recognize When His power is over, and he cannot recognize which daughter really loves him. And so he again, these are all characters who create their own demise. Now, in the comedy chapter I talk about Shakespearean comedies and all of the techniques that, that he uses the major structure techniques that he uses to get his comic effects. One of the most important which he also used in Romeo and Juliet is mistaken identity. And this is a major This is a major technique in all comedy is mistaken identity. Or, and, and playing, taking on a role taking on a disguise, because comedy is all about facades, it's all about people put on facades to be successful and worker and loved. And then the story tracks how we pull those facades down. And so and so, you know, the second identity and, and, and role playing is one of the ways people put on facades, but because it's done in a comic vein, we get to laugh at it. Whereas in when when there's mistaken identity in Romeo and Juliet, it creates the tragedy.

Alex Ferrari 1:41:16
Yeah, something like Much Ado About Nothing or Midsummer Night's Dream it, I think, much ado about nothing, there is a mistaken identity that kind of spawns the whole, yeah, spins the story to start, I mean, and it just keeps going and going even though it was planned, you know, false identity, things like that. But that is the brilliance of that film. Or excuse me of that story. Another one I wanted to talk about author wise, and it's an ask about these authors, because it's so important, because these are the top level of these are the All Stars of writing. And it's really interesting to deconstruct why they're successful. JK Rowling, and the Harry Potter series, you know, on the surface, it's about a wizard, going to a school, some spec, there's definitely spectacle in there. We've all heard wizard stories before I met in magic stories. But there was something that connected with the worldwide audience that sent kids standing in line at a bookstore for a book and you imagine, what is it about? That that those eight books or seven books assuming those seven books that just connected with us at such a deep, deep level?

John Truby 1:42:31
Well, again, there's a ton of reasons, but I believe you have to start with how she mixed genres. That is a definitely somebody who is pre, before the writing process spent major time figuring out how am I going to combine genres here. And what did she do, she took fantasy. She took coming of age, she took elements of horror. And she used a sub genre that is very much in British storytelling, which is the Public School Story, meaning private school,

Alex Ferrari 1:43:13
All of her

John Truby 1:43:15
Boarding school based learning school. And the combination of basically coming up with a boarding school for wizards. is just is just when you think about it, of course, why didn't I think of that, because it's just so brilliant. But then you get the elements of the, and I talked about it in the coming of age check, because you get because it's such a unique coming of age story, because you're tracking every year and this kid's coming of age, you're breaking it down into literally literally seven years of his coming of age from 11 to whatever 70 And so you've got you're tracking that which makes it very personal deserves the drama elements again, you tracking that coming of age within a school environment, which is a school that everybody would have loved to go to. Right. And you're doing it with all of the great fantastic stuff that comes with the fantasy form you know, in You I mean but the immense amount of inventiveness that you know we're including the sport that they play Quidditch, you know that an entire sport that she's going to have these people play you know the the Mogul mogul, Mughals, Mughals, Mughals. Yeah the different characters in you know the fantasy character web is among the greatest ever done. The you know, the use in terms of plot of a does something I talk about my story class a lot, which is the use of the, what I call in between characters flip characters, which are characters that appear to be an ally but are really an opponent or they appear to be an opponent and they're really an ally. If she does that would just even one character Snape, that track attracts the plot for seven books?

Alex Ferrari 1:45:07
And you really don't know, you don't until the end is Yeah. Is it for me? Or is he against because sometimes it's for me, sometimes it's against me. And it keeps you like, you know, like, and then people who you who are like, Oh, this professor, he must be he's so nice he must be. And then it's Voldemort in disguise, like,

John Truby 1:45:24
Right. And that's what I was talking about earlier in terms of this is a level of plot excellence that she has, that when you combine it with the right mix of genres, and again, these are genres that have never been mixed before. You combine that with amazing cast of characters, you combine that with the technique of The Three Musketeers, really characters been one of the most popular again, we go back to do ma that the height of plot in the history of story. I mean, it's just just so many things that she's bringing to the table. Not to mention one of the best story worlds ever created, which is story worlds one of the most important trends in the last 20 years and worldwide storytelling in every medium. I mean, it just goes on and on with with what she's done there. And that is why it is the most popular series of books ever written.

Alex Ferrari 1:46:21
It is it is remarkable what she was able to do with that book series. And, and we'll be talking about I mean, there'll be talking about Harry Potter, and a 200 years, 300 years, it will be it'll be just, they'll just keep talking about it forever and ever. Because it's just done so well. And so, like when I first read the first book, I felt like, and I hadn't read a book at that age for a while. And I was like it was I called it literary crack. Because you just, you just couldn't put it down. And it was so apt. That's why I was wanting to kind of deconstruct what she was doing there. Because if we can even get a little bit of that magic on our stuff. It is a man, it definitely elevates you to another level. And the last, the last big author of our time is Stephen King. Yeah, who is a master of horror. Obviously, we I mean, I'm not saying anything that nobody knows, but and there's so many different stories and so many different things, but like just take into stories like Carrie, which was his first book, and it you know, the psychological things going on there. And the themes that he touches on? What how can you how can you kind of deconstruct what he does again, and again and again and again. And he does it so fast? And how many books is even 100?

John Truby 1:47:45
Yeah, I don't know, the guy is incredibly prolific and yet incredibly good. Really, for me, to understand Stephen King, you have to go back to Paul. And what Paul was really crucial for is, he was really the first and in certain ways the greatest obviously not nearly as prolific as Stephen King, but still may be the greatest in terms of taking her with all his very symbolic elements, very mythical elements, and grounding it in the psychological in the personal in the real. And this is like the tell tale heart, the House of Usher on the pit in the pendulum, these these kinds of things, you're getting all the power of the horror form, with making it so personal that the reader can get the terror of it, because that's really what we're talking about horror or terror. That is it is it is a genre that is about one emotion, care. Right? How do I get that? How do I get that or the reader or the viewer? And so what I think King did was he brought that to the, to the modern day. Because she you look at the great stories that he's done. They're very personal, they're very, most of them are there within a family. There is a person with a tremendous psychological flaw, that it's not some weird, otherworldly thing. It's very personal that we all can see. You know, Carrie is an example Pet Cemetery is an example. But he then takes the the foundation of the of the real individual within a family and then creates, he spells it he spins out a greater and greater harm coming from the internal flaw of that person. And that, again, is where you're combining and that's how you transcend in every in every one of these genres. You get the power of the tight the power of of the genre. And genre means type. It's a type of story. And then you combine these highly personal dramatic elements. And that that combination, I've said this in my story class forever. That is this in terms of a single strategy, there is no greater strategy in terms of having both a popular and a critical success, then those then combining those two elements, and King within the horror form, does it better than anybody's ever done?

Alex Ferrari 1:50:30
Now to start wrapping up this because we could keep talking about this for days, even if you just sat here and read your book, it would be nice. I wanted I think one of the main reasons you decided to put this book together was the art the business of selling, genre buying and selling genre and whatever form you're using, whether that be novel, whether that be screenplay without the video game, whether it be anything, can we talk a little bit about the business of buying and selling genre, so people really understand what the marketplace is looking for?

John Truby 1:51:04
Sure. The, as I mentioned, where this really happened, there's before Star Wars and there's after Star Wars, before Star Wars and I talked about in the introductory chapter, the book. The I believe it was the year before two years before Star Wars, JAWS came out. Jaws was a massive worldwide hit. Single genres story done very, really. Okay. Two years later, you have Star Wars. And everybody turned down that script, everyone. Yeah, everyone literally ether. Now, it did this. Basically what this is, is, who is it? Who is the what was the old TV show sci fi TV show, Buck Rogers, Buck Rogers, right. I see. Come on, and nobody's going to come to see this is fine. Nobody wants to watch stuff. No, no, of course. And there was a reason for it. Because sci fi films of the 50s because they didn't have the special effects. There are a lot of times they just look ridiculous, you know. So they had this unintentional come comedic effect. But the what was what they were not seeing was what that was in the script was in the script, in that he was combining all these genres in a seamless way. And that had worldwide effect. Because no matter the culture, I love that story. And I love how plot dense it is. And so what I what I was told, you know, up and up through probably the 80s the perception was in Hollywood, that Hollywood buys and sells movie stars. After Star Wars, and definitely into the 90s. And beyond, especially when you had massive success, like Pixar, no movie stars there. You hear some voices, but they're not successful because of movie stars, and other newer movie stars. Its story star, they're selling the story. That's why it's so it's not a movie star world in Hollywood anymore. It's not certainly not directors, we like to think we know the names of these directors. So what has nothing to do with that? It's and certainly not buying and selling writers, because we're screenwriters are still low person on the totem pole. Right? They're selling great story. And what that means is and what has come to, to me, especially over the last 20 years, is dense plot. And what is the key to them? It's genres. Because genres are platforms that have been tested over centuries, centuries, they've gotten rid of all the drawers, they've gotten rid of all the wasted time. It's pure story. And especially in screenplays, you know, it's all about the bones. It's pure story beat. There's no time for any padding there. And so what genres do is to give you this vehicle for telling a really well plotted story, and at the same time, hooking in a really powerful thing that also has already been worked out. That's what Hollywood that's what the Hollywood money people are looking for. And you don't think they know that you better believe they know that? They know because they've heard all the stories about Star Wars and reading Joseph Campbell and so on and so forth. They know that which is why the most popular story form genre, as I mentioned, is to this day myth because it has worldwide appeal. So typically, least with all the superhero movies, what are you getting, you're getting this story plus action, maybe love but but not even they're not really but you're getting mythic plus action, and you're getting a savior store, which is a sub form of men. So the money guys know that they know that what we're buying, we're in the business of buying and selling genres. And so you need to bring us what a story that is one hits the genre beats two dozen away we've never seen before, because if you can surprise us, you can surprise them.

Alex Ferrari 1:55:16
So is that why Marvel has basically taken over the box office? Because if you pull up Marvel and Top Gun 2022 is not a great year in the box office. There's just not enough product going out to the theatrical experience. So why is that why Marvel has just taken over? I mean, they literally taken over Hollywood. I mean, it's either a Marvel movie, or IV, obviously a big IP, but Marvel is one of those most arguably the biggest IP in cinema today. Is that why they're so successful? Because I mean, comic books have been around superheroes have been around since the 30s. In origins, in the sense that they

John Truby 1:55:59
Didn't know the power of comic books could have in terms of cinematic appeal, right, because they were comic books. But as soon as Star Wars came out, you essentially had a comic book story form with comic book characters, but done really, really well. And Stan Lee, what was the what is the trick to Marvel is that Marvel took the mid form with the superhero character, and brought in drama elements. What do I mean by that? I mean, they had main characters with flaws. And the real distinction here that you have to understand it wasn't a marvel. But this is where their lesson is clear. This is the difference between Superman and Batman. Superman was the first superhero, right, but he's perfect. The only flaw he has is a physical flaw. It's kryptonite. Right? But basically, and of course, it's also based on one of the greatest mistaken identity jokes in the history of story, which is, you know, he puts on a pair of glasses, we can't tell who

Alex Ferrari 1:57:04
Where did Superman go?

John Truby 1:57:07
Oh, but the point is, Superman would love to see his success. And he does all these great things, and he flies and blah, blah, blah. But by far the greater character. And the greater story for him is Batman. Why? Because he has massive internal flaws. And all this story plays off of that. And all of the problems with Justice play off of how far do you go to get justice before becomes revenge. And then because then you have a moral decline. And so, Marvel, if you look at all their characters, they're all whole console. And they all have these internal flaws, which in the old days, is early as the 70s are, Fargo is the 760s 60s and 70s, the the conventional wisdom in Hollywood was, you want a superhero with no flaws, because then they're not unlikable, and therefore, it'll cut into box office. And then all of a sudden, Marvel comes along and shows us and there were other examples of this. But Marvel is probably the best example of it shows us that just the opposite is the case, that when you have a superhero with real flaws, we we can feel this guy, we can understand what they're going through. And it's not just a sequence of stunts, where they fly around and you know, knock somebody across 10 buildings, and so on, so forth. So, so this is, this is why, and Marvel was able to do it not just for one superhero character, they've been able to create an entire universe of characters that interplay this story weave on their films, is amazing. I would love it's very similar to a TV writing room, in terms of how they're doing this. And, and what you what you see the complexity of how these characters are going to interplay with and interact with each other is incredible. But that's how they, they take films and basically hit the same story beats all the time, and still have that kind of success.

Alex Ferrari 1:59:18
Well, I mean, it's going back to Greek mythology, I mean, the gods, literally the gods all had flaws, the human flaws, to make them accessible, because if it was just Zeus and Venus, and everyone was perfect, and we were like, who cares? Yeah, what's interesting is that they have flaws and they in in the storytelling, whoever came up with these stories of Greek mythology, or at the time the religion of of Zeus and and all of that was that they added human elements to it and watching them you know, sleep around and do this thing and there was anger that's what made those those those characters if you're looking at it, historic point of view, so interesting, to watch.

John Truby 1:59:59
That's why That's why I talked about in the book that that Marvel and superhero movies in general, are the modern religion, they are doing exactly the same thing that the Greek gods did 2500 years ago. So there is option there are a collection of hero superheroes with superhero abilities with that also have human all too human flaws, and that combination who then go around and save the world, it's, as I say, it's, it's a sub form of myth and religion, which is the Savior story.

Alex Ferrari 2:00:36
And it's so powerful that there is a universe or a timeline where, let's say, we wipe ourselves out, and only a handful of primitive human people are around and they find the stories of Superman, and Spider Man, they they become gods. And this this, this, this mythology would easily become, or Star Wars, the myth of the Jedi, that's many people consider that a religion, because it's all the beats,

John Truby 2:01:02
It does! It is a religious story. And one of the things that contained in the book is that if you can do if you can get theme to that level, because theme at the highest level is essentially your religion that you're expressing to the audience. It's a collection of stories for how to live. And so if you can get your theme to that level without appearing to be religious, there is nothing more powerful than that. You have to hit the jackpot.

Alex Ferrari 2:01:32
And that's what all of these stories that we've been talking about have hit in one way, shape or form. I mean, the matrix and Shawshank and the storyteller is telling you their perspective on how to live life. And it was George Lucas said it very easily. Back in the day, he said, stories are the meat and potatoes of our society. That's how we, that's how we transfer over the moral code that we live. We live by this. And that's why he wanted to create something like Star Wars that passed along this insanely powerful moral code. And he wasn't hidden about that, by the way, it was hidden with all the flashiness in the spectacle.

John Truby 2:02:16
Right!

Alex Ferrari 2:02:18
But it's pretty clear. Yeah, I mean, the Jedi said, AI

John Truby 2:02:20
The Jedi is a religion, it may not be a very defined one, but it is very definitely a religion. It's it leans more toward an Eastern religion than say, a western region. No question. But the point is, that is that that combination of mixed genres, execution of the story beats, and the fact that is theoretically, a powerful religion, you know, may the force be with you who the hell on this world doesn't know that line? So the point is, that combination is unbeatable. And George Lucas, show the world how that would be in his defined storytelling. From then on.

Alex Ferrari 2:03:02
John, when is this insane book going to come out? So people can buy this book, start reading it, and, and spend a good part of their life reading it because it's pages. But where can they find when is this book coming out when it's going to be available to the public

John Truby 2:03:18
The best way, the best way to get it is to go to this website anatomyofgenres.com.

Alex Ferrari 2:03:27
And now have links to Amazon and

John Truby 2:03:29
It has links to all of the bookstores, wherever you want it. The book comes is officially out on the 29th of November. But if you would like to get your preorder in again, go to that site anatomy of genres.com. And you can make your order now and they'll send it to you as soon as available.

Alex Ferrari 2:03:49
And what and where can people find out more about you your other book anatomy of story and the courses you teach and seminars and all the stuff that you do?

John Truby 2:03:57
That's at truby.com truby.com and it has all the information you need.

Alex Ferrari 2:04:04
John, it is been an absolute pleasure talking to you. I mean, seriously, we're gonna I want to have like some spin off episodes where we just sit down and break down Shawshank matrix, Fight Club. I'm just all my favorite movies. We're just gonna sit there and wear them down to see what makes these things tick so beautifully. But I appreciate you, man so much for everything you're doing for storytellers around the world. But I think in many ways in this conversation, it I think the conversation transcended a bit in the sense that this is more about not not as much, only about not only about story, but about the self, and about our journey through life and the power. The stories have to help us along that path and the responsibilities of storytellers that we have, and you've given us a great toolbox to go into to really understand how to do that at a very high level. So, John, my friend, thank you so much for coming. back on the show, and we will do that other episode one day soon.

John Truby 2:05:03
Alex, it's always a blast talking with you, you're the best in the business. I will talk with you about any film you want anytime you want. There's nothing more fun for me to do. So thank you so much appreciate it.

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BPS 236: How to Outline Your Screenplay Like a Pro with Naomi Beaty

Naomi Beaty is a screenwriting teacher, screenplay consultant, and former development exec with 10+ years in the entertainment industry.

Naomi is based in Los Angeles, CA. She has worked on American productions and on projects in Taiwan and Australia, including the feature film “Ghost Boy”, based on the novel by award winning Australian author Felicity Pulman, produced by Morning Starr Productions.

Earlier, Naomi worked on the other side of the desk at Madonna and Guy Oseary’s Maverick Films, where she helped develop projects including “Twilight” and “Percy Jackson”.

She just released her new book “The Screenplay Outline Workbook”.

The Screenplay Outline Workbook is designed to give you a clear and manageable set of tools, steps, and exercises so you can turn your ideas and inspiration into an outline and write your best screenplay – whether it’s your first or your tenth.

With this workbook as your guide, you can start with just an inkling of an idea – or nothing at all, even! – and end up with a solid story premise, compelling characters, and an outline that provides a blueprint for writing an emotionally satisfying screenplay.

Inside you’ll find enough instruction and theory so that you know what you need to know, but not so much that it overwhelms you before you even get started. Room to work through your story ideas and collect your notes and flashes of brilliance. A place to organize what you discover about your story as you develop it so that you can easily reference it when needed.

Use the workbook to design a new story from scratch, or jump straight to the topic you need to get your work-in-progress unstuck. With 30+ tools, exercises, and prompts honed through years of teaching workshops and working one-on-one with writers, this workbook will help you:

  • Generate new story ideas
  • Choose a strong idea as the first step in writing a great screenplay
  • Build a sturdy foundation for your screenplay by finding the essential elements of the story
  • Discover the organic three act structure and major plot points that create the framework for the story and screenplay
  • Design compelling characters that help push the protagonist along a meaningful character arc
  • Try one or more suggested outlining methods for mapping out your story

…and so much more!

The workbook lays out a process that’s flexible enough that you can use it for every screenplay you write, yet designed to specifically address the issues readers commonly find in aspiring screenwriters’ screenplays.

With each exercise, you’ll explore ideas and make choices to build your story, piece by piece. You’ll craft an outline that does all the heavy lifting, and be confident in the story you’re telling – which frees you to get creative with characters and dialogue, and discovering the kind of magical, cinematic moments that made us all fall in love with movies in the first place.

If you’ve tried to write a screenplay before but found yourself stuck somewhere in Act 2, having an outline that serves as a map of your screenplay can make all the difference. Consider this workbook the wise but gentle guide that will meet you where you are and lead you to your destination so you can finally make real progress turning the movie in your head into a fully developed story that you’re ready to set down onto the screenplay page.

When you’re done you’ll have more than an outline — you’ll have a rock-solid foundation for your screenplay.

Please enjoy my conversation with Naomi Beaty.

Right-click here to download the MP3

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Naomi Beaty 0:00
But when you get to writing scenes, you get to have a lot of fun with what happens in a scene, right? Like how does that come to life? What's the most entertaining? Interesting way for that thing that you figured out? That needs to happen? Right? You figured that out in the screenplay outline? What's the most interesting cinematic way for that to play out? You know, in your screen TV screenplay.

Alex Ferrari 0:20
This episode is brought to you by Bulletproof Script Coverage, where screenwriters go to get their scripts read by Top Hollywood Professionals. Learn more at covermyscreenplay.com I'd like to welcome back to the show. returning champion, Naomi Beaty. How you doing Naomi?

Naomi Beaty 0:36
Hi, I'm good. How are you?

Alex Ferrari 0:39
I'm good. I'm good. Thank you so much for coming back on the show. You have a new book, hold on, let me just lift it over here. It's the screenwriting outline workbook. It's really not that big guys, I'm just making it. But it's fast. It's a really great, you know, as I was going through it, it's man, it's really cool, has some really great guidances on how to put together a screenplay, which is now there's not a lot of this out in the marketplace. I haven't seen a lot of this kind of. I mean, there's a couple screenwriting books, not too many.

Naomi Beaty 1:08
There's a few.

Alex Ferrari 1:09
There's a few. But I haven't seen anything like this before. So we're gonna kind of dive into the book and what you're doing in it. But first, can you give everybody a little update on who you are? If the case they haven't heard the first episode?

Naomi Beaty 1:21
Yeah, yeah, well, sure. The first episode was years ago, so much has changed since then, I'm pretty much still the same, though. Still doing the same thing. So I'm a screenwriting teacher and script consultant, I work with writers also, you know, directors and producers, one on one on their projects, giving them feedback on at the script level. And sometimes even starting earlier than that, and helping them develop ideas so that they can get the script written. But yeah, basically just working with anyone who has a movie idea to kind of get that idea, you know, into screenplay form, and hopefully in good shape, so they can start showing it to people.

Alex Ferrari 1:56
Very good. So first question. Yeah. What is a screenplay outline? Because I like how do you go about it? What is it? How do you put it together?

Naomi Beaty 2:06
Yeah, I mean, it's a great question, because I think a lot of people set out to write a screenplay, and they decide they need to outline it. And then they just quickly come to the next question, which is, what is an outline. And I think, you know, when it comes to outlining your screenplay, I just think of outlining as part of the prewriting process. So it's just part of the process that helps you develop your idea and flesh it out and get it to a point where you know enough about it in order to write screenplay pages, and whatever form that takes, you know, what it looks like on the page in the outline form can be a lot of different things. It's what is the most useful to you. So a screenplay outline is really a tool for you to use sort of on the you know, on the path toward getting your screenplay written. For most people, it's, you know, a numbered list of scenes or bullet, bullet point list of scenes or beats, you know, plot beats, that just sort of take you from page one to the end so that you have sort of a map to help you write the actual screenplay itself.

Alex Ferrari 3:11
So the next, the next statement I have is what I always hear from people, especially young screenwriters, they say. But outlining takes all the creativity out of it. It's so so structured and and it's formulaic. And I don't want to be Hollywood, I want to be free flow, I want to be like Quinton, I just want to jump back and forth. And this and that. And I always tell him, I hate to tell you, but quit and use a structure and Pulp Fiction, very structured and actually goes through the beats of, which is why that script is so cheap. It's it actually goes through all the beats, but in different timelines. And it makes the head hurt reading that script and trying to break that script down. But that's a master. And that's what he does. So what what's your answer to people who say that this just takes all the creativity out of it?

Naomi Beaty 3:59
Yeah, I've heard that too. And I, I understand that concern, right, because it sort of feels like if I do all of the creative thinking in the outline form and get everything figured out, and written down before I get to writing screenplay pages, then I'm not gonna have anything left. When I get to the pages, I'm going to be bored by my own story, and just, you know, transcribing it from outline to screenplay page. And I understand that concern, but I wholeheartedly disagree with it. You know, every writer is different, and everyone has their own unique sort of process and way of fleshing out an idea. However, I think that the the outlining process can actually be a really creative part of the process, right? Like, why do you think that just because you're doing you're putting your creativity into the outline, does that mean that there's not going to be any creativity left in your screenplay, right? You're actually doing a lot of that creative, heavy lifting. When you're thinking about, well, how do I structure that So how do I develop the character arc? How do I, you know, make sure the relationships are sort of developed all the way from beginning to end, and they're seamless. And then you have a function and a, you know, an emotion to them and all of that stuff. So I think you can do a lot of that while you're in the outline phase. So that by the time you get to writing screenplay pages, it's not that you've beaten a dead horse, and you've, you know, sort of taken all the fun out of it for for yourself, you've done so much of the heavy lifting and put a lot of creativity in at that phase, that when you get to writing scenes, you get to have a lot of fun with what happens in a scene, right? Like, how does that come to life? What's the most entertaining interesting way for that thing that you figured out? That needs to happen? Right? You figured that out in the screenplay, outline? What's the most interesting cinematic way for that to play out, you know, in your screenplay, screenplay pages, and then in the mind's eye, right? So I think that you can be creative in every step.

Alex Ferrari 5:58
So in other words, like for the structure, literally, you're, you're basically beating it out or putting the points of things that have to happen in each scene. So it's like, Okay, John has to hit Joe, in this scene, because this is the catalyst for this part of the story. Now how that breaks down in that scene, it's completely up to you, you can make it really fun. At the end of the day, he has to get from point A to point B, how you get between point A and point B is completely up to you. And that's part of the creative process. But at least you have something to start with, as opposed to a lot of writers, including myself, when I first started just like, I'm just going to start and see what happens and just let it flow. And it just been a hot mess. It's a hot mess, because you don't know where you're going. And I also don't have the at that, at that stage in my career didn't have the, the craft built up. I mean, if Eric Roth wants to sit down and start writing from scratch without an outline, I'm gonna say it's gonna be better than most right? You know, but But you have to build up that craft. And I think the structure is so needed and you can't build a house without a foundation about structure.

Naomi Beaty 7:04
Right! And you make a really good point because I think like, you know, Eric Roth, Aaron Sorkin if if those guys at that caliber, if they sit down to write a screenplay, they've they've done this for so long, and have such an innate sense of like how a screenplay works, not just story structure, because I think all of us have a little bit of that innate sense of story structure, but they've got it like, ingrained, they know, story structure in screenplay form, and sort of what needs to happen page by page on a screenplay, how the rhythm is, you know, how characters develop, where you see complications and things like that, those guys could probably sit down and write a pretty good draft without, without doing an outline first, but for a lot of us, and for most of us, I think, you know, there are so many things that you have to remember when you're writing a good screenplay, if you're trying to write a good screenplay, so many skill sets, right. And so I think thinking through the plot and character development in the outline phase, actually take some of the pressure off of you, it allows you to kind of, you know, pay attention to certain skill sets at this point in time. And then when you get to screenplay pages, you can pay attention to other skill sets, you can think about dialogue and scene description, and you know, getting in the scene late and getting out early, and, you know, thinking in visuals, like cinematic stuff, right to make it appealing in terms of being a movie. So you have so many skill sets to worry about, I think that, you know, giving some of them your attention in different phases will only help you end up with a better product, you know,

Alex Ferrari 8:36
Without question now. So many times we want to figure out what the ideas are. Do you have any idea generating ways to generate some ideas about this themes about that? Ideas? All that kind of stuff? Yeah, definitely.

Naomi Beaty 8:49
I do have a couple. I mean, thank you, for teeing me up. I do have a couple of exercises in the book that are all about generating concepts for screenplays, right? Because it seems like people who get stuck at sort of the idea phase when they can't decide how to move forward with one project they they have, like, they get stuck in two different ways. One, it's either they have too many ideas, they don't know which one to do first, or to work on first. And then the other thing is like, I don't know, I want to write a screenplay. But I don't have an idea for a movie, right? So one of the things that I put in the book was a couple of exercises that can help you generate concepts by you know, sort of playing games, because I think that's the most low pressure way to do it is look at treatment like a game and just have fun with it. So there are a couple in there about like mixing and matching, you know, different elements and kind of generating concepts. And I think, you know, an important part of it is just generating a lot of ideas because that's the only way you're not going to get precious about the one idea that you're sure is an Oscar winner and it's going to be a million dollar spec sale. If you have lots of ideas, then you can kind of be a little bit more, you know, gracious with yourself and got, like, you know what, maybe that one's not going to work this year because I don't have the craft yet. Or maybe that's not such a great idea. After all, it's a better as a novel or a comic book or something like that. And you can, you know, have allow yourself to, to be a little bit more choosy about which screenplays you're gonna write.

Alex Ferrari 10:16
Now I have to talk to so many screenwriters over the years, I've you know, off air and on I love the off air ones, because that's when I really get some nitty gritty stuff that I can't that I can't broadcast, unfortunately. But I've been told by many of these top screenwriters that they did borrow structure from other movies very, I mean, they call wholeheartedly like, you know, like I saw this movie, and I took it structure, change the story around and change the, the ideas around but and the characters around, but the structure is there. And I always love using this example because it's so blatant. And after I tell this, most people go I can't believe I never saw that before. Fast and Furious. is pointing break. Yeah. I mean, they didn't even try to change it. They just changed surfing to Grace cars, and a couple other cars. I mean, it's pretty much the same movie, right?

Naomi Beaty 11:09
Yeah. Yeah. Yes, I have actually not done like a side by side comparison. I think that'd be really interesting to do, because the broad strokes of it for sure are, it's the same, you know, it's the same story.

Alex Ferrari 11:22
So that's another thing for screenwriters, you know, starting up to look at other movies that they might admire. And start with those structures. I think that's one thing that's always been a lot of people think is taboo. But all the greats, start with other people's all artists, start with other people's ideas, and try to emulate other people's ideas. And then as you start working through it, then you start coming up with your own style, but structure structure. I mean, it's like, why wouldn't you take a blueprint of a house that worked and worked well, and then dress it up, however, you want to dress it up and change the walls, you know, add a door here, put a door there, change the roof side, style, but at the end of the day, it's a structure that sells

Naomi Beaty 12:02
I totally agree. And I always tell writers, especially, you know, writers who are who are trying to get a handle on screenwriting, right, who are kind of early in their in their learning curve, I always tell them to study movies. And, you know, I think we all, we all probably watch a lot of movies, but I do think it's a helpful exercise to like choose one or two and really break those particular movies down and study them. Because I think you learn a lot from not just viewing it once or twice, or even if it's one of your favorite movies, and you've seen it a lot and you can quote it and all that stuff. But if you really like take the time to sort of examine it almost like a you know, doctor patient kind of exam, like, make a list of all the scenes that happen look at that list and examine like, Where does the inciting incident happen? Where does the break into act to happen? Notice the relationships between those two plot points, right? Because there is they have to work together in a particular way. Look at that midpoint and see how does this midpoint work? Like what does it do for the story? How does it you know, make things harder or make things more urgent? Examine all of those big turning points, because I think you'll learn a ton from not just understanding theory and understanding like the definitions of plot points and things like that, but really looking at the way that they work in movies, and especially in one particular movie. And I think that an extension of that exercise, if I can just keep going here is that paying attention to the difference between just like we were talking about, like when you make a screenplay outline, right, you might have a bullet point list of here, here are the things that need to happen. Just point by point, Joe needs to punch Tom, right. That's one bullet point and the next one, something else happens. But making that bullet point list for the movie that you're studying, because then you get to see oh, here's what happens. Joe punches, Tom. But here's how it happens in that scene. Like it's funny, or it's a you know, it's an ambush, or it's a it starts out a romantic scene, it it ends in a punch. How does that happen? Right? Because you get to like, really understand there's a difference between the what is happening, the plot thing that's happening, and the cool, interesting, fun way that that can play out on screen, which can be a million different ways. And, you know, you're saying structure is the same from you know, across sort of lots of movies, right? That's true. And then the the how that how it happens on screen is what makes it uniquely entertaining. You know, it's what makes one movie different from the other one.

Alex Ferrari 14:31
It's the color of the walls is the dresses is the furniture in the room. It's you know, if we're using the analogy of a blueprint and a house, all of that makes a difference. You know, it's all about how you add the little details to it. You know, there is you know, when when, what when we're looking at a movie, sometimes we don't know whose story it is, especially when we're starting to write a movie. We don't know whose story it is. So I always like using Shawshank as an example because I think One knows that by nausea now that I mean, it's my favorite movie of all time. And that at that you I truly and I've asked a lot of, you know experts like yourself like whose story? Is it? Is it Andy story? Or is it read story? Who is the protagonist in that movie? You know, whose story is it? So that's a very important distinction to have when writing because if you don't know whose story it is, you know whose story is fightclub? Right? Is it Tyler Durden?

Naomi Beaty 15:32
Yeah, I absolutely had just another another example, kind of in the same vein, come up or come to me. Yesterday, I rewatched. Fargo. I hadn't seen that movie since I originally watched it back in like 96. Or whenever it came out. In my head in those intervening years, I believed that was March to Anderson's movie, right? And I rewatched it I was like, oh, no, I was completely miss remembering this. This is now I'm I'm totally blanking on his name. But but it's it's a it's a husband. Yeah, it's his it. He's the lead character. He's the central character in that story. It's, we start with him. We're watching what he's doing. It's his actions that are driving the story forward. She comes in like 35 minutes in to investigate, you know what he's been doing. But we're with him from the beginning. I was like, that is so interesting that I remembered it being her story, I think because I assumed the investigator on the scene is going to be the one kind of driving the story forward. But it's actually his story.

Alex Ferrari 16:37
It's really common. You start getting into a complex conversation about something like Shawshank, because I mean, who drives the story is Andy, right. But yet who's telling us the story? Right, so we're seeing the story through reds eyes. And yeah, red does do a few things to help along the way. But and he's the one driving store. Right? You know, and also their interaction is driving this. So it's a very complex. Yeah, idea. Am I right?

Naomi Beaty 17:04
Yeah, absolutely. And same with Fargo. I think that even though I'm sort of like saying that so easily that Oh, no, it's his story. I actually think it almost plays like an ensemble where it's like we start with him. It really is his through line kind of that gives us the movie, it's fine. But the other characters are so equally important that it's not super easy to just say, Oh, no, it's just this character story. And that's all we should be concerned with. You know, it's really all of them that make it work.

Alex Ferrari 17:29
So something like a Sherlock Holmes or knives out kind of scenario, which is a murder mystery, or a mystery in general. It's generally the detective whose story it is because we're seeing everything through their eyes, generally speaking, so knives out, it's Daniel Craig Wright walking through the process, the whole movie we're walking through with Daniel. Daniel Greg's eyes essentially.

Naomi Beaty 17:50
I think so. I actually only saw that movie once. And I think I may have fallen asleep. Not because it wasn't wasn't good. I just I watched it late. But um, but yeah, I think if if the movie is sort of centered on an investigation, almost always it's going to be the person doing the investigating, right? Because that's the sort of like, through line of action that we're that we're paying attention to. It's the reason this story exists is because there's something to investigate and the person doing the investigation is who we're kind of like watching do the thing. And hopefully we're rooting for them, you know?

Alex Ferrari 18:22
So like, clear reason, science with labs. It's, it's her it's definitely her story.

Naomi Beaty 18:27
No, I call it her story. For sure. I don't know if anyone would disagree. But yeah,

Alex Ferrari 18:31
I think it's who you remember from that movies? Not much is Hannibal?

Naomi Beaty 18:35
Yeah, absolutely. And I think you remember, you really remember their relationship. That's a movie that I you know, maybe two or three years ago, I that was one that I really started studying. I was like, I want to understand how this one works. And I think prior to that, I had assumed that Clarys is sort of through line was really about Hannibal and then when I rewatched it, you know, and this was like three or four years ago, whatever. But I started sort of watching it to study it a little bit more. And I realized, oh, no, like she meets him early on. But then her investigation is her investigation. And then she brings him back into it again. But it's not his story at all. It's you know, it's what he can do for her it's him in support of her story. For sure.

Alex Ferrari 19:20
It's, it's, it's fascinating to say and another thing we were talking about structure and finding structures of movies that we that that you know, studying other people's to other other movie structures and possibly using those structures in your own stories. I think a really good exercise is to analyze your top 10 Because it's if it means something to you if you are and then you can start seeing the patterns you like even if you'd like revenge movies. Well, maybe you should write a revenge movie. If you like horror, maybe you should read horror if you love romance, you maybe want to write romance as opposed to like I really love horror but I'm going to make when When Harry Met Sally, like that's probably not going to work out.

Naomi Beaty 19:59
Maybe that It could be a whole new rom com.

Alex Ferrari 20:02
Jason Blum Jason Blum will produce it absolutely. Yeah.

Naomi Beaty 20:04
I like that. No, I agree. And as an as an extension of that, I will say, too, I think when you have when you have a few, like movie ideas under your belt, not that you have to have written the screenplays yet, but when you have like, sort of, you know, practice developing an idea, kind of teasing it out to see kind of what's there and maybe, maybe gotten to an outline stage, who knows. I also think it's really interesting and useful to sort of look at the common themes between those ideas. Because I think a lot of times writers kind of circle the same thematic ideas in their projects without realizing it. And I see this sometimes, you know, not to embarrass anyone, but I see this sometimes because I work with certain writers over several projects. And I'm like, Oh, so this one is also about, you know, familial obligation, or this one, dad. Right. This one is also about, you know, that sort of that same issue that you find really interesting. And I think it's, I think it's kind of funny that, you know, often writers don't even realize they're doing it. They're like, Oh, yeah, I guess I'm kind of writing the same story over again, you know, different concept, but dealing with the same issues or types of relationships or something like that. I think that's really interesting to examine. Because, you know, if you find that about yourself, if you're like, Oh, I kind of keep going back to that same well, because that's an issue that's really interesting to me, then you can lean into that, right, that can become kind of part of your calling card, your voice your portfolio, you know, that you put out there so

Alex Ferrari 21:32
Yeah, I mean, it's your superpower. It's, you're really starting to get that that secret sauce, that's yours. And if you're passionate about I mean, look, Nora Ephron. She really found her superpower, you know what, and found his superpower. And Aaron found that, like, you know, Shannon, Shane Black, they all found that thing that they really resonate with and leaned into it, as opposed to, I mean, I'm sure Shane Black romantic comedy would be extremely interesting. Yes, I think I think a Tarantino romantic comedy would be extremely interesting. But it's not something that they lean into. Right? You know. So that's something to think about, as you're as you're moving forward. Now, in your book, you also talk about the four elements essential elements of a story foundation. Can you tell us what those four elements are?

Naomi Beaty 22:21
Yeah, I mean, I think they're, they sound really basic, but there's something that every story needs, right? So you need your protagonist or your central character, however you want to think about that. Sometimes you're you might be dealing with an ensemble or a pair, but I just sort of for default sake, I call it a protagonist, right? That's number one, the story goal that they're trying to achieve over the course of the story, because the entire movie is based on the pursuit of that endpoint, right? That's the that gives the story, its structure. The opposition, or you can think of it as the antagonist, right? The main obstacle or main thing standing in your protagonist way? And then the stakes? Why? Why do they want to achieve this goal? Why why is it important to them? What happens if they fail? There's some motivation there to keep them going. Right?

Alex Ferrari 23:10
All right. And then always, always find out about the everyone's always figuring and thinking about the hero's journey, or the three act structure. Why is the three act structure the most popular not for actor five Act, or seven act structure that, you know, some some projects, especially plays have? You know, why is it always the three act structure that everyone kind of leans into in Hollywood? Yeah,

Naomi Beaty 23:34
I think by default, we talk about movies in 3x structure, it's sort of become the common language of the industry, right, we sort of have all agreed that like, this is sort of the framework for movies, you have three acts, you have a setup and escalation and a resolution. And that just is sort of, you know, the the baseline is how most movies work. Not every movie, there are certainly exceptions to the rule. But mainstream movies kind of tend to have that structure. And they, they follow a particular rhythm and a pace that we're used to, right. And so those big turning points, those big structural plot points, the inciting incident, the breaking back to all of those, those create the pace of the movie. And that's why there's so much. You know, some people call them rules, right? Like your inciting incident has to happen, like page 12, or page 10, or between 10 and 15. I usually say between 10 and 15. But that's why that's kind of why those rules are accepted sort of rules, right? Because if those big turning points happen, kind of in a timely fashion, where we expect them that gives the story that gives the movie The pacing that we're used to right, it gives us that familiar rhythm, and it feels like things are happening on time and quickly enough that we're not getting bored. Right. So, to answer your question, though, I think that the 3x structure is just sort of what we've all collectively agreed is kind of Yeah, the lowest common denominator structure, and it gives you that setup escalation and resolution that we're all familiar with in stories. And that works so well, with the length of feature films, you know.

Alex Ferrari 25:12
So there's other there's movies, like I remember, like in Raiders of the Lost Ark, which has, from what I understand five acts, but you can argue it has 3x. And a lot of 5x, a lot of 3x could be argued that have 5x, and you can start kind of breaking it down. And so is it kind of almost almost irrelevant to a certain extent, as long as you're hitting those beats. But a lot of these movies have different acts that don't line up exactly the way we want it to.

Naomi Beaty 25:41
Yeah, and I would agree that it is largely irrelevant, because we don't have curtains on the movies that tell you when the ACT breaks happen. And so you know what I mean. So this is all sort of like, again, I think remembering that this is all in an effort to have a particular effect on an audience. And that's why we concern ourselves with structure, right, because we want our movies to feel like they have a particular pace and a particular, you know, shape that is somewhat familiar, but also surprising, and takes us on an emotional journey and all of that stuff. So that's why we pay attention to structure. And that's not to say that every movie has to fall into 3x structure, there are definitely movies that you could say have 5x Or sometimes people say they have 4x, right, because you have act to split into into two parts. I don't think it really matters, like you're saying I think it's it's sort of irrelevant. It's how it feels? And is it delivering the effect on the audience that you want it to have? Basically, all of these like rules and tools and paradigms and things that we that we try to study and try to adhere to are in an effort to keep the audience from being bored, and to keep the audience reinvesting in the story. Right? So as long as you can do that, who cares how many acts you've sat down to write it with? But all of all that said, I do think it's helpful for newer writers who are studying, you know, screenwriting and trying to figure out how do I get this story idea out of my head and into a screenplay? I think it's useful for them to study three act structure and to understand like, what is that effect that I'm trying to have on the audience at each turning point or at each particular section of the script? When I teach in some of my my, like, first draft workshops, I use eight sequences. So you could look at those as being eight acts, you know what I mean?

Alex Ferrari 27:36
It's I think, I think what you're saying is just don't get caught up too much in it. But if you're starting out, it is the base, it is the foundation, the hero's journey, as is, which is so famously, you know, brought to our attention by by Mr. Joseph Campbell, is something that every writer, every storyteller needs to know whether they use it or not. Men, it's very difficult to use the hero's journey in a detective story, right? It doesn't, it doesn't it doesn't line up. But you should be able to know those things. These are basic understandings that you need to know as a screenwriter. And if you're going to make and this is a frustration I've seen with a lot of screenwriters is they'll write a screenplay, and think they're very artistic. And then they try to submit it to Hollywood. And it doesn't get any action and the like, why don't they recognize my genius, I go because you haven't played by Hollywood's rules. I don't care if you like it or not. It's I mean, every big movie that gets made any anything's made by a major studio has this kind of structure that we're talking about, has these turning points and point of no return. And it really does kind of follow the hero's journey, if it's if it's according to the, to the genre that they're writing in. So you kind of you know, fall into that now, once you build up, and God forbid, have a career in the business of writing to three, if you've sold three, four, or five, six scripts, and I've produced a whole bunch of stuff and you want to start playing around, right? Then you can start testing the waters because you have a name. If Quinton wants to come out and write whatever the hell he wants to. He can have someone reading a telephone book for two hours. Someone's gonna watch it. Because right so if Sorkin or st black or any of these great writers want to test the medium, or push it, they deserve they've earned that. Right. Right. Can't do that when you walk up.

Naomi Beaty 29:28
Well, and also Yeah, I mean, I totally agree. And also, like we were saying before any of those writers that have really, you know, been kind of in the trenches for a long time and have ingrained those that understanding of, well, here's why, you know, we say the inciting incident goes here, right? Here's the effect I'm trying to have on the audience. They know that that effect is really just about like, grabbing our attention and letting us know the story is starting. So if they have another way to do that, that doesn't feel like a traditional inciting incident. You know, they have that sort of understanding of cause asked whether they realize it or not that they can kind of like do something interesting. And we go, oh, that works because I'm interested, you know, and that's the whole point is like, get your audience interested, kind of like, you know, get us emotionally invested. And then keep us there as you tell us the story. Yeah, so

Alex Ferrari 30:15
But but I think that if you're walking in to Hollywood and trying to get a job in Hollywood, I think living in that structured world, to start is probably the best, the best way to get in the door. And to build up and to build a career up. I'm not saying to be formulaic, but Right, if everyone that I mean, that's what's selling.

Naomi Beaty 30:37
And also Yeah, I mean, writers have, you know, voiced that concern a lot. I think, you know, when you talk about structure, a lot of writers get worried that like, it's going to feel formulaic, it's going to feel like, you know, you know exactly what's coming, and you can expect everything. I don't think that's the case, it's like, understanding that structure is a tool for the writer, right? It gives you a starting point, a jumping off point where you go, Okay, so here's, here's three act structure, I know kind of broad strokes. Here's where the setup happens. Here's where the escalation happens, here's where the resolution happens. That doesn't mean that you have to have things occur in the most expected way, or the way we've seen happen a million times before, right? There's there that just gives you kind of the sandbox to play in. And then it's up to you to find interesting ways to convey the information that we need in order to follow your story, you know, and

Alex Ferrari 31:28
I was watching a movie the other day, and I can't remember because I watched so much content, it's hard to keep it all together in my head. But I remember it was sitting there with my wife watching the movie one night, and it was good. And we were really intrigued with it. And then at the end, where it was like that, that the all is lost moment in the screen, which is towards the end of the second act going into the third act. We didn't see it coming. We knew that moment was going to come but how it came was like, Oh, the mother's the killer was. Yeah, it was just like I didn't you just because the writer and the director did such a good job. You know, throwing red herrings out all over the place that you just did just came out of nowhere, but in a really good way. So there is always ways to surprise an audience, but it's still going to happen around that time to how it happens is up to you.

Naomi Beaty 32:16
Right! Yeah. And I love it when a movie can do that. Right when it doesn't when it doesn't feel expected or formulaic. Or like I've seen it before.

Alex Ferrari 32:25
I mean, let's go back. And this is a spoiler alert. Sixth Sense. If you haven't seen it, it's on you. The greatest one of the greatest twists in movie history. Yeah. happened at a structural point. It happened exactly where it was supposed to happen. But boy, that no one else, no one saw that comment, like no one saw it coming. But it's still happened at the point where you're just like, Huh, that's the point where it was that turning point had to happen. But the way he did it was just like, holy cow. Yeah. And

Naomi Beaty 32:59
It all comes down to the effect on the audience. Right? Because it was like that the audience had been led to a point where that reveal had the most impact. And that's, you know, that's kind of what we're always talking about when when it comes to structure.

Alex Ferrari 33:12
Well, if you look at the movie like psycho, I mean, let's look at that structure for a second. You, you know, again, spoiler alert. 1960. Sorry. But when, when she dies when Norman kills are in the shower. That's the beginning of the second act. But what's so brilliant about that script is now you're like, Okay, who? Whose story? Oh, wait a minute, they swapped out protagonist. Yeah. Which was so brilliant. You just like, in the end, like you killed off the movie star in the first 15 minutes. Like it was such a brilliant way. And no one had ever done anything like that before. But then again, where did it happen? The inciting incident? That's the inciting incident of the movie essentially. Am I right?

Naomi Beaty 33:55
I think so. Yeah, I haven't watched that movie. And so long, but I would believe you if you said this is the inciting incident. Because again, because you know that you're trying to have a particular effect on the audience. And it's like, that makes sense for that to happen right there. Because that shakes things up. Right? It it tells us that something is changing. And the story is starting now, because this just happened, you know

Alex Ferrari 34:14
Exactly, exactly. No, we're not. We've been talking a lot about structure. Let's talk about character a little bit. How do you develop an engaging main character? That's if you have any tips on that?

Naomi Beaty 34:25
It's a good question. And I think there you know, probably a million different ways. However, I do think it's useful to think about like, what is sort of reverse engineer right and think about what are the ways that that an audience or an individual person becomes engaged in a story right, because the story that we're watching comes through the protagonist character, we're watching one particular character story usually. So thinking about like, what engages us and a lot of times it's those those like emotions that you know you can rely on to get somebody invested. So it's, you know, engaging our empathy for a character showing us that there's someone that we that we should care about or you know, want to care about. And there's a reason to care about them, engaging our our sort of like, tension or fear about what might happen for them the anticipation that something bad might happen. So if you put a character in jeopardy, then we sort of lean in and we go, oh, this is this is a character I'm interested in, in following because I want to know what happens to them, and I care about it. And then also, I think, getting us to like a character, there's so much said about, you know, making your character likable. And I know that writers here hate to hear that, that your character has to be like, well, and I'm not saying that at all, actually. But um, but getting us to either like them or admire them or find them appealing in some way, I think is a really useful thing to think about that is so simple and so often overlooked, right? Like, thinking about making your character appealing should be should be kind of a, you know, one of the early things that you think about, because if you think about this in terms of like, it's a product that you're trying to sell to someone, the movie is a product, right? There's got to be appealing, selling points about it. And so hopefully, your protagonist, your central character, is one of those selling points, one of those appealing selling points. So thinking about like, can you make them funny? Can you make them good at what they do? Can you give them like unique talents or skills, or even sometimes just a unique personality that is engaging? Those are little tricks to kind of like hook hook our interest and start to get us to lean in.

Alex Ferrari 36:35
I mean, and a movie in recent years that did this so beautifully was Joker. I mean, Joker, you literally he's the villain. He's one of the great villains of all time, not only cinematic, but in literature. He's really brilliantly written villain. And yet, how do you identify with a villain and man did they just structure that story and that character, so you feel the insanity of what it's like to be The Joker and totally, and you're going through that your journey with them and at the edge? So you feel better? Like yeah, he's doing Amos stuff. But you're like, but I get it, like I can understand where you're coming from. It's not just the twisting of the moustache, one dimension eight, right layer upon layer upon layer upon layer with that movie. Yeah, that was so done so beautifully.

Naomi Beaty 37:28
And if they had relied on, you know, I think this does happen actually, in a lot of sort of newer writers scripts, where they go, Well, this character is just fascinating, because he's a character we love to hate, right? Like, he's just a, an antihero, and he just does terrible things. And that's why he's fascinating. And sometimes I think that that might be able to work. Like I wouldn't say that it can never work. But if you think about it, the thing that made Joker such a such a compelling character, right, is that it played on our empathy it that movie did such a, like you're saying such a beautiful job of like, showing us this character who isn't good. But there's so much that's in him that we can understand why he is the way he is, right? And I think it's human nature to have empathy for other people. So that movie does such a good job of playing on our, our own empathy, like as humans. And then also I think a little bit it plays on kind of the the, the same appeal that like true crime does. We want to understand how this person got this way, and what makes them do the things they do. So like the the sort of dual, you know, qualities in people of empathy and curiosity. I think that movie, like hit it on the head with that character,

Alex Ferrari 38:44
And that they made his maniacal laugh. And illness. Yes, yeah, was a stroke of genius, because that's the cartoony thing about the Joker. It's a comic book character, but that they made it an actual illness. It's like, oh, no, he's suffering when he's laughing. Oh, it's just like, oh, so good. Yeah. And

Naomi Beaty 39:05
It's such a good, you know, it just plays on us, right? Because the first time you're sort of like, Oh, it's just like a real life experience, where you might see somebody doing something that at first puts you on guard, and you're like, Oh, that's weird. I should be nervous, right? But then if you learn, there's actually something behind it. Like they can't help it. It's a you know, it's a disorder. It's a it's a thing that they have to deal with, then you suddenly start to feel bad about judging and then and you know, your empathy is sort of is sort of like rolled out for them.

Alex Ferrari 39:37
Yeah, exactly. ramped up. It's like someone with Tourette's, you're like, oh, that's just a foul mouth person. You're like, Oh, my God, he can't he she can't help it. Right. So it's a completely so they touched on that such a brilliant moment in that and that character development. And, you know, speaking of villains, I think when you were saying that, you know, oh, he's an antihero, he's, he's bad because he's just he's fascinating to look at that right. I'd have played in 1920 doesn't play now we're just too advanced for that. So even a movie like endgame Avengers endgame, where Thanos, who is, you know, the biggest bad guy at the time. He really, if you look at what he was trying to do, and same thing in Black Panther, if I remember the villain and that they both had good intentions, they were just going about it the wrong way.

Naomi Beaty 40:23
Yeah. And I noticed

Alex Ferrari 40:24
That I just wanted to depopulate the entire universe because we were running out of resources. And I saw it on my plan. And I think I want to help everybody else, I'm just going to kill half the universe. So this is just a wrong way of going about it. But it wasn't just like, I'm bad to be bad. I just want to destroy the work that that doesn't play as much as to one dimensional now. Right?

Naomi Beaty 40:46
Yeah. And I, Black Panther is a good example of that, too. And I don't remember all of the specifics. But I do remember thinking that antagonist is such a, it's almost difficult to decide who you should, you know, give your allegiance to, because he, he was a guy who was reacting to the way he was brought up. And he, you know, his background and the circumstances that he found himself in, and he had intentions to that he was like, No, based on all of that, based on what I know, and what I've experienced, here's what should happen, right? And you kind of can't. That's what's so interesting about those characters is that you get to see what motivates them, and understand where they're coming from. And then it's like, it's even more compelling to us, I think, as viewers because we're like, I don't want to agree with him. But I kind of see where he's coming from, you know,

Alex Ferrari 41:34
And that's what and that's what keeps you engaged in the stories that you're following. So why Black Panther was not it was such a monster hit for many reasons. But that if that villain wasn't right, that it would have been, it wouldn't have helped destroy the string of the story as well, as it did. And, you know, we talked about introductions of, or talking about main characters, introducing a character is something so important. And I just when I was reading that in your book, I was like, oh, Indiana Jones Raiders of Lost Ark. Mat, not a word spoken, I think maybe one or two words that have nothing about his character. But that whole opening sequence all the way up until the Boulder is about to crush him. Sorry, spoiler alert. This episode, I mean, I mean, seriously, guys, I can't help it. But the entire time you find out so much about who Indiana Jones is, within the first five to 10 minutes of movie without a word spoken? It's really It's fascinating. Well, I mean, Lance cast and is such a brilliant.

Naomi Beaty 42:37
Yeah, well, he's Yeah, right. And movies. You know, I think that that's one thing that also, it's easy to overlook, again, coming back to the idea that there are so many skill sets to remember when you're trying to write a good screenplay. One of them is how do you introduce your protagonist in a way that conveys? You know, that gives us some information to go on, you want it as quickly as possible conveyed as who is this character? And why should we be watching them? Right? And that's an easily overlooked thing. Because when you're juggling all those skill sets, you're like, Okay, I gotta get my, my protagonist in here, somehow. And so, you know, very often we see that he wakes up, he brushes his teeth, he goes to work. And you know, sometimes that can give us valuable information about the character. But a lot of times, that's just the first thing you thought of, right. So thinking about, like, thinking about what could be a more, you know, a more full introduction to your character, like a more, you know, interesting but also revealing introduction to them that can tell us more about them, just besides, you know, where they sleep and how they brush their teeth. I think the character the protagonist, introduction is such a great place where and again, talking about like not beating the creativity out of your story. By the time you get to writing your script, like coming up with that introduction, you don't want to have all these other things to think about because you want to be able to take the time to like brainstorm what's the most interesting way for me to introduce that character.

Alex Ferrari 44:05
And when you were saying that someone like, oh, they go up or they brush their teeth, and they wash their face. First thing that popped in my head is Jack Nicholson as good as it gets, which is an amazing character introduction, because again, not a word is said, but by his his entire opening morning sequence, you learn like 90% of what you need to know about this character. And the other 10% are kind of revealed beautifully throughout the rest of the script of its internal but you just know so quickly, who this person is. Tom Cruise and Rayman in the first 5010 minutes you've know who this guy is so it's it's it

Naomi Beaty 44:45
It was it Bill Murray in What About Bob? Is that the one where he swallows the toothbrush?

Alex Ferrari 44:52
I think it might be I haven't seen What About Bob and forever but yeah, I think it might be me. Although, I mean Even him in Groundhog's Day, you kind of you know or even know even better his introduction and Ghostbusters when he's yeah what he's doing the the psychic tests that the way he does it and he's being pervy, and he's you know all you just know everything you need to know about Beckman like,

Naomi Beaty 45:17
Yeah, tell really quickly, what made me think about what about Bob is because we were talking about brushing the teeth and I feel like that's that's if I'm remembering right that movie he's like brushing his teeth but he swallows the toothbrush. And it's like, of course that works because that's not the traditional he wakes up, he brushes his teeth, he goes to work. This is a guy who like, you know, his default way of waking up and brushing his teeth is weird, and tells us kind of that he's not normal, which was very important to know in that movie.

Alex Ferrari 45:46
And I think as a good, a good kind of way to have an exercise that you should do as a screenwriter is to look at some of your favorite movies and see how they introduce those characters. Because as we're talking like Tom Hanks, and Turner and Hooch when he was you know, didn't the, you know, doing everything, he's cleaning his nose hairs, like, you know, his whole house, within the first five minutes, you know, this guy's a neat freak. And then of course, Gooch comes into and messes up his world. So it's all beautifully done. So if you start analyzing how these characters are introduced? Well, that's a really helpful thing, because I think in in, you know, beginning scripts and bad scripts, characters are just like, they just show up and there's a one dimensional like, oh, look, he's got tattoos on and he had a suit on like, No, don't, you know, or, Hey, Bob, how's that job? Like? They say that they don't show it. And it's something that we really, it's something we need to fight against?

Naomi Beaty 46:38
Yeah, it is it is it? Well, it's an opportunity for you to be creative, right, it's an opportunity for you to like, give us a scene that we're going to fall in love with both, we're going to fall in love with the movie, we're gonna fall in love with your writing, we're going to fall in love with the character. So that protagonist introduction, you know, no pressure, but it has some, it's a really good opportunity for you to do something cool and interesting and compelling. So don't you know, don't waste it because you only have a certain number of pages for us to be engaged in to fall in love with what you're doing. So that's even a one, even Vin

Alex Ferrari 47:13
Diesel and fast and furious when we're introduced to him. I mean, it's not super complex. It's not nearly as great as gamble as the other ones. But all you need to know about him is laid out in the first time you see him when he's racing and how he races. What he does, it's very important to his character, and how he's introduced. So it's these kinds of things that that screenwriters need to think about with it. Because once you're hooked with the main character, if you do your job, right, you're on the journey with them.

Naomi Beaty 47:42
Yeah, you know which one I'll I'll throw one more at you which character introduction I love is Erin Brockovich. Oh, no, because you immediately know who she is. I mean, it's a it's an it's a scene that could very well be a cliche, because it's a job interview, right? Where she's being asked questions where she's answering questions, but it's an opportunity to give us a bunch of information right up front about who the character is, how she thinks, what her experience in the world is. And then right after that, you know, talk about like triggering our empathy. We see her sight, not sideswiped. What's it called T boned by another car. You know, she's already like, not, you know, not great financially. She's looking for a job, she's struggling. And then this happens. And you know, who doesn't have empathy for her after that?

Alex Ferrari 48:32
I mean, she's the underdog. There's, there's, she's definitely the underdog and you like, but she's a fighter, and like, hey, I want an underdog. I'm a fighter. I'm gonna go with her on this journey. Right. That's it. That's how you go. Now in your book, you also talk about a story chart, what is the story?

Naomi Beaty 48:46
Well, I have a couple of different story charts in in the book. And, you know, they're they're really just like tools and exercises that I put together. Not just when I was writing the book, but with writers that I work with, to sort of try to help people get clear on the story they're telling, right? Because I think one of the one of the instincts that newer writers have sometimes is like, I have an idea. Now I'm just gonna sit down and write the whole thing. And it's like, there are a lot of steps that could help you get a grasp on what it is you're trying to write. Because not knowing what you're trying to write, I think is a very quick way to get stuck and get writer's block and to abandon that project and never finish that screenplay. So I'm trying to help writers not get to that point. I want them to understand what they're trying to write and sort of develop their ideas in baby steps so that it doesn't feel hard. It doesn't feel overwhelming, and they get to the screenplay and can actually write the whole thing. So the story chart that I have in the book is it's basically just taking kind of the broad strokes of a story it's it's almost like the Once Upon a Time then this happened then this happened kind of template for a story, right? It's like that, that traditional sort of story that we all know and understand. It's sort of Have a version of that just taking the broad strokes of a feature film, like, here's kind of what happens in all the big sections, and laying out into charts so that you can use it as prompts to kind of figure out okay, so in my story, in this broad strokes section, this is where we meet the character and understand, you know, kind of where they are in life right now. So you can then brainstorm and fill that in for your story and kind of, again, it's a baby step. It's a way to kind of like, start to get clear on what needs to happen in each section of your story.

Alex Ferrari 50:30
And what's a springboard? I heard, I saw that I love to hear what that is.

Naomi Beaty 50:34
Yeah, that's, we were talking about the eight sequences, right? So I teach, you know, getting through first draft using springboards and sequences. It's one of the methods that I use to outline basically a way to figure out what happens in each part of your story. So the way I teach it is the you know, a screenplay is can be broken up into eight sequences, and in between each sequence is a springboard. So it's a plot point, a lot of the a lot of the springboards that you'll find are actually those major plot turning points, right? So the inciting incident is a springboard the break into Act Two is a springboard. The midpoint is the springboard the break into three. So those kind of turning points are springboards for the next section of the script. So what happens at that plot point, sends us in a particular direction that the next section of script plays out. And that's, that's basically it. Does that makes sense?

Alex Ferrari 51:31
That makes that makes perfect. Now, I'm gonna ask you a few questions. I ask all of my guests. Oh, sure. What advice would you give a screenwriter trying to break into the business today?

Naomi Beaty 51:41
Interesting. Well, there's so much advice to be given. But I guess it depends on who I'm talking to, in terms of where are they in the journey. But if they have written those screenplays that they're really proud of, and are getting good feedback. And they just feel like they need to know some piece of information before they can, like, make that big break, right? I think my best advice is to not rely on one method, I always tell writers to have a lot of irons in the fire to, you know, take a lot of different opportunities that come to them. Because you just you don't know which one is going to be the the thing that sort of breaks you in. And more often than not, I think it's a snowball effect. It's like you get a yes here. And then you can leverage that to getting into this program. And then being in that program allows you to meet, you know, certain executives, and you can kind of like use those relationships to get your foot in the door in a writers room or in you know, something else. So I think it's a snowball effect. So you should say yes to things and sort of have as many irons in the fire as you can. Because cumulatively, that's how you break in, it's not a lottery ticket. It's not one opportunity that's going to suddenly make your career and now you're in and you're never going to stop work gig and you know, and all that stuff.

Alex Ferrari 53:01
All the money just comes by trucks, I think they bring them out and they just pile the money just goes into the front.

Naomi Beaty 53:06
Yeah, that's what I've heard. I mean, I'm waiting. But

Alex Ferrari 53:09
I've been waiting for quite a few years, few decades. At this point. I've been waiting for it. Yeah. Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Naomi Beaty 53:20
Deep, so many questions? Wouldn't it have been funny if I had just recycled everything that I said last time?

Alex Ferrari 53:28
Because it's been such a long time, I would have never thought of it. That's a great answer.

Naomi Beaty 53:32
Yeah, I know, I have no idea. Well. So this is I don't know if this is going to make sense. But I do think that the lesson that probably took me the longest to learn and has so many different applications is know your audience, right? And I think that that's true, when you're writing a script, you kind of have to have a sense of like, who is this for? Who is the audience for this? Who would go see this movie, because not because you're writing to the market or because you're pandering or catering just to one particular sensibility or something. But you do have to know that your the thing that you're writing is meant to be seen. And so there is an audience who should want to see this, right. So I think knowing your audience comes in, in that sense. But then also, I think it applies to the sort of working collaborations that you're going to have to have, as you know, in any part of the filmmaking process. You know, you can speak differently to a fellow writer than you can to a director or your producer or you know, whoever it is that you have to kind of do business with. And knowing the difference between a newer producer who doesn't really know what they're doing yet versus a very seasoned producer who you know, you can speak with in a different way. I think knowing your audience is just so important in every every regard.

Alex Ferrari 54:54
Absolutely. I you start talking about big words, start throwing around screenwriting jargon to a young producer. doesn't know what they're doing. And if they have an ego problem, that's when fights start busting out or like it. These are things that they don't talk about. This is not stuff that it's taught at school. So knowing who you're talking to, and knowing your audience is extremely important, your apps great answer Great answer. Now three screenplays that every screenwriter should read.

Naomi Beaty 55:18
Okay, um, well, I think my, my default answer would be choose the three screenplays that are most like things that you want to write, right that are sort of like, if you could choose screen any screenplay to have written, choose those screenplays to study, because I think that that's probably going to help you the most, right, because it'll speak directly to kind of like what you love about those stories. But if you're stuck, and you're looking for suggestions, I think, choose a, you know, I'll use this term loosely but choose a classic choose something pre 19 ad to read, just to kind of like see how stories were put together in an earlier time in an earlier era. And then choose something that's been a, you know, say, an Oscar winner for Best Screenplay in the last 20 years or something, and then choose something off of the blacklist, to to read to get a sense of like, what are what are sort of current trends in screenwriting style? How are people doing things differently now? than they were, you know, 40 years ago and 20 years ago?

Alex Ferrari 56:29
Great advice. That's a great answer. I've never had that answer before in the show. Good, good answer to that question.

Naomi Beaty 56:34
Something new.

Alex Ferrari 56:35
And finally, your three favorite films of all time.

Naomi Beaty 56:38
Oh, gosh, I'm sure that I answered this one before and probably regretted my answer immediately. Because as soon as I say my favorites, I'm like, No, but what about this one? So classics that I just go back to again and again, and I and I love them because of the effect they have on me but also because they're so interesting and have offers so much to think about and study in terms of screenwriting, Silence of the Lambs, for sure. What other one do I always go back to? Oh, you know what I love about a boy, I think that that's such an interesting screenplay and movie and it does such a good job of, you know, we're talking about sort of like, whose story is it and kind of balancing multiple characters. That's a good one to study if you are in that predicament of trying to have kind of a two hander. And then let's see. Third all time favorite. You know, a recent favorite is bridesmaids, I think that that that movie does so much right and took me so much by surprise in terms of like how well how well put together that story is

Alex Ferrari 57:42
Very cool. And where can people pick up your book, The screenplay outline workbook.

Naomi Beaty 57:48
You can get it on Amazon. It's only in paperback at the moment. So it's a physical book that you get, and you get to write in and do the exercises and hopefully, you know, develop your screenplay idea by the time you're, you're finished with it. So yeah, Amazon's the place to see it.

Alex Ferrari 58:02
Naomi, thank you so much for coming back on the show. You're welcome back anytime. I appreciate the good work you do and help some writers out there. You know, battle the problems of getting the first screenplay out there. So yeah, my dear, thank you so much.

Naomi Beaty 58:15
Thank you. Thanks for having me again.

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