BPS 459: How Filmmakers Can Win in the Digital Marketing Age with David Feinman

Alex Ferrari 0:23
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 0:49
My guest this week, because we're going to talk about his company, viral idea marketing, creating the Zombie Run and creating stuff like this media that gets shared, you know, creating all this stuff and cutting through the noise. So without further ado, let's get to the episode with guest David Fienman. Say, you call me Bullis already. We're friends already. Look at that.

David Feinman 1:35
Yeah. It's funny. We were talking two seconds ago. How you know people that know you call you Bullis and people who don't call you Dave. So I took the Bullis option.

Dave Bullis 1:40
Awesome, man. All my friends call me Bullis. And I've tried to get the Twitter handle at Bullis, but some guy has it, and he won't give it up, and he's never tweeted once. Can you believe that?

David Feinman 2:34
Did you try offering him like, is he for sale? Like, are you able to are you able to pay him off?

Dave Bullis 2:40
I offered him money. He turned it down, really, yeah. And I said to him, I said, Listen, his name's not even Bullis. His name is like, Al rosensky or something. And I said, and so I complained to Twitter, like, you know, like, of course, that's, that's my first that's my first thing. I'm gonna complain to Twitter. So I complained to Twitter, and they basically said, there's nothing they could do about it. And I said, How the hell does this, any of this work? Like, first off, his name's Ivan Bullis, it's al ruzinski. And secondly, I'm actually Bullis, and I actually tweet. And I actually, this is how, this is how neurotic I am, Dave. I actually got all my analytics together. And I said, Look at this, I am clearly like doing something for your platform, and they still wouldn't do anything for me.

David Feinman 3:27
Wow, maybe you just need to up, Annie, maybe, maybe, maybe you got all from $3 instead of one. You know,

Dave Bullis 3:34
Seriously, there has to be something I'm doing wrong. But I'm sorry enough about me and my my Twitter problems, but I wanted to talk about you, Dave, and just all the things you're doing with viral ideas, marketing, and all the cool stuff you're doing. So just to start off, you're a temple grad. I actually was a TA at Temple. Oh no, yeah, for one semester, then they kicked me out.

David Feinman 3:55
But we got all we got applause there, like, why did they kick you out?

Dave Bullis 4:00
No, no, I'm joking around.

David Feinman 4:00
See, I thought that was, like, a cool story that I was, you know, that could have been neat. But, yeah, unfortunately, unfortunately, you like, lasted, you know,

Dave Bullis 4:01
Yeah, yeah, seriously, I should have made up something on the spot. I should have been like, uh, well, uh, so, but you but that's pretty cool. Though you were, you actually graduated from Temple. So, you know, first I want to ask, you know, why temple? And also, you know, what did you actually major in a temple?

David Feinman 4:24
Yeah, so, why temple? So I actually did my first two years at Bucks County Community College. They had a program where you could go for two years at Bucks County Community College, two years at Temple. And I've always done an entrepreneur. So I started out at bucks and did that thing because I was, I was working on a company at the time, and then kind of went over to temple after that, that's where I started this current venture. So, so basically, I, I had, you know, I had a great time at Temple. And the reason I, the reason I went to temple, it's kind of a weird one, you know, I went down the tour the school, and I. And ate at one of the food trucks. And I really liked the food the food truck. I think I had a muffin or something weird like that, and I went to temple, literally, because I had a good meal at a food truck. Because I've never, I've never been, like, a big school person, so I'm like, All right, this is 45 minutes from where I grew up. Like they have good food, so I guess I'll go here. So that was kind of my, that was kind of my line of thinking,

Dave Bullis 5:23
Well, the school is huge, though. I mean, it's like the size of a small city basically, you know, and you go to temple, and then you go to some of the other colleges in the area. I mean, some of the other colleges in the area are, like a postage stamp compared,

David Feinman 5:37
Oh, my god, yeah, yeah, temple. I mean, and they're, they're growing too, which is amazing for, you know, any past grad to just have that, you know, it's something that's, you know, expanding,

Dave Bullis 5:49
Yeah, yeah. It's unbelievable. And their film department, which is always, which is, you know, I don't know if you've ever actually just gone through there and just seeing all the things that they got going on. It's kind of funny, because when I was actually ta ing there, I actually went through and they had a small black box theater, right? Okay, so this small black box theater was, that was their department, yeah, it was, like, it was literally bigger than in the entire TV studio I got which I was working at, because I actually, at the time, I worked at another school full time, and I'm sitting there going, my God, this black box theater is already bigger than, like, the entire TV studio. And this is one thing like, let's see what's on the opposite side, right? So it's just unbelievable. And, you know, just working with her, you know, film and TV department. But so when you actually, so you were lured in by the food I've had this and you had this muffin.

David Feinman 6:40
And unfortunately, it was a great school. Like, for is a great school to be lured in by, like, this wonderful muffin at this place. I the temple. I owe it to that one food truck. But, and if you know anything about temple, I don't know, like, who the listeners are. Temple is a, you know, one of the great schools for food trucks. So, I mean, right up and down, I don't remember, I don't know if you remember this bullet, but like, like, up and down the streets a temple is just all food trucks, and it's a great culture. But I studied entrepreneurship there. I mean, they've, like, one of the top programs in the country for that. So we actually recently, as an alumni, you can enter in their business plan competition. And we just entered their competition this year, and we were one of the, we were one of the winners of the competition, and actually won some, won some money and some resources from Temple for that which, which was a lot of fun.

Dave Bullis 7:28
Oh, that's, that's freaking huge, man, yeah. So, you know, just to go back for a second about the food truck, how lured you in. You know, it was actually funny, because when I was working at that other school, they had this big cookout, right, right? They were saying, Hey everybody, come on campus. This is our open house, you know, come on and try all this great stuff. I was right there, right? And his dad bites into this burger, right? And he goes, Well, I'm writing the check to Drexel right now. And he because, let me tell you, later on, by couple like and by later on, I mean, a couple minutes later, I tried one of the I tried a burger. Not bad, right? Yeah, it's it tasted like somebody stepped on it and then put it in the in the bun or something. And I said, What the hell happened here? This is like this. This is like, grade Z meat. So I'm sitting here going, this is how you're going to market your school to potential, like to students is by having like, low grade food. Like, Who the hell's gonna be impressed by this? And seriously, when hit that, Dad said that I'm like, Man, the food really does matter.

Dave Bullis 8:30
It makes a big difference. It makes a big difference.

Dave Bullis 8:32
Yeah, and it's because you think about, if you're a parent, right? You don't want your kid going and having like, some slop summer camp, especially the parents are paying for it. You want a proper meal? Yeah? Seriously, seriously. So, so it does make a lot of difference, but, but, yeah, I mean, it's so cool that, you know, again, Temple, again, we live so close, by the way, everybody. That's how, that's how Dave and I actually met. So it's so everyone, it's like this whole Philly centric we're talking about here, speaking of which, so Dave, where do you go to get a good cheesesteak in Philly?

David Feinman 9:06
Oh, that's a good question. So, you know, I was actually on a podcast, I think it was a week ago, or maybe this week, and they asked me which cheesesteak, you know, Patrick Geno. And I actually tell people to go get a pretzel from Philly, because a lot of people from Philly assume cheese steaks all steaks, all we got. But we have, we have the pretzel. And I think, I think the pretzel is the underrated, the underrated Philly item. I think the Philly pretzel is something that should be talked more about.

Dave Bullis 9:29
You know, maybe it's, I don't even notice it because I have so many pretzels from Philly. Yep, you know what I mean, like, it's something I don't even think about,

David Feinman 9:39
But, but if you go down south, it's all super pretzel. It's not, you know, it's the it's the other, like the other. This is not a video, but I'm doing the twist on Skype, and it's one of those. It's one of the twisters. So it's different, you know, it's different than a, than a Philly pretzel, which is the figure eight. I think it doesn't get much attention, but I'm not. I'm not as partial to cheesesteaks as I am to the pretzel

Dave Bullis 10:12
I see, I see. Because, you know, I always ask that the Philly centric people, because every time someone comes to Philly, like, where should I go? Patrick Genos, and my response is, Philly, people don't really go to Patrick Geno's unless it's like, at night at their sports game, then it's Yeah, yeah. Or if you're by the stage, go to Tony Luke's, but, but then again, I said, they ask during the day, where do you go? And I'm like, well, there's John's roast pork, which is awesome. There's gyms on South Street, which

David Feinman 10:41
is really great. Why had an old office up by there, right next to Jim's gyms? And what's the pizza place there? That the big slices? Lorenzo's?

Dave Bullis 10:53
Oh, Lorenzo's, yeah, for some reason I was about to say somebody else's pizza place I met. There's a guy who actually in Philly, he started a pizza place, and he actually charges everyone, like, $1 a slice.

David Feinman 11:05
Oh, it's Roses Pizza, Guy Mason, yeah, yeah,

Dave Bullis 11:10
Yeah, that's awesome, by the way, everyone This podcast is gonna be more than just about food.

David Feinman 11:14
I'm sorry. Like, oh, we shifted your whole podcast. I know this is, like, the, like, the Video Marketing podcast. Maybe this will be a good transition. But, you know, we spent the first like, we're foodies first, and then we're video guys.

Dave Bullis 11:25
Yes, everyone's like, What the hell am I listening to? Just two guys

David Feinman 11:29
Freaking cheese steaks and pretzels and like, where to get pizza and Philly, which I guess we're experts on that now, you know? Yeah, serious, all sides. Like, whole side thing, whole size being gone.

Dave Bullis 11:41
So if people are listening, ever do travel into Philly? They know where to go now about where to get pizza and cheesesteaks and pretzels and everything else. So you graduated from Temple, and you actually integrate. And you graduated with a was starting entrepreneurship. So what was your first steps outside of college? Was it actually trying to start your own business, or actually starting your own business.

David Feinman 12:06
Yeah. So it's actually interesting. I'll back up a little bit. So while I was in while I was in college, and while I was in high school, actually, I started my first business at 16, and eventually went on to start there's a smaller business, but went on to start a company called the Zombie Run. So we went on tour all around the country. About 16 cities. Grew the whole thing using video marketing, social media, and kind of eventually progressed into doing, you know, video marketing consulting while I was in college, and that's kind of where the seeds of my company now started viral ideas. So basically, we would be consulted with companies to teach them how to use social media and video and stuff like that. And I didn't think I was going to start a company right out of school. I was actually interviewing with Google. I was, like, third round interview with Google. I an offer on the table from like, one of my professors who, like, wanted, wanted me to work from them. And I just said, I love doing this. I love, like, consulting with people, doing videos. And I was getting more and more clients. So just said, All right, you know, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna start another one. Like, I guess I'm like, I guess my true identity is, I'm an entrepreneur. I've done it from the time I was 16. I did it while I was in college. So why stop now? Let's do another one and have some fun with it.

Dave Bullis 13:12
So I have to ask, what was it like? You know, actually, even getting an interview with Google, because I hear it's incredibly difficult to even get an interview one and then two, to even get past the first rounds, incredibly difficult.

David Feinman 13:25
So one of my friends actually referred me, which was, which is a good way in the door. They asked me a question about, I'll never forget this. So they asked ridiculous Google questions. And the question that I had was, how, let's say you're a traffic cone manufacturer in California, how would you determine the demand for traffic comes in California? And I came up with an answer. I don't know. You know, I'm not working at Google right now. I have a phenomenal company that I love very much. Well, I don't I think my answer that question might have had a slight impact on the reason why I didn't get hike. So what was your answer? I think I answered something like, I would, I would, like, survey like I would survey the construction and in like, a certain sample size of of a couple roads, and then extrapolate that out across the square footage, and use the number of cones per, you know, mile or whatever. I don't think, I don't think like that, but I thought, I thought it was like a logical answer.

Dave Bullis 14:22
Well, is there ever really a right answer to those questions? I don't think so. I mean, I always wondered. I'm excited. A friend of mine who went into an interview with Google or Facebook, and he actually did, they made him code, and they said you can't have a computer. Just use a whiteboard. You have to write it out. And he was like, Well, what? Why am I doing this? And, and finally, he got it. After the interview was over, right? He got it. Finally understood. He goes, Well, they want to take away all your tools to see what you can do when you don't have all your strong points. They want to see, do you? Do you sort of fall apart? Yeah. How do you handle this? I kind of. Get it at the same time. I'm kind of, like, these open ended questions, you know, right? Yeah, you're kind of wondering, like, is there really, if I say, if I say anything? So go back to that traffic cone question, if I say something, like, Well, I wouldn't do it at all. I would just basically, you know, I'd go sell something else or whatever. I don't know is that even right? You know, it did so, so do you use questions like that? If so, if you're hiring for viral idea marketing, David, do you hire? Do you ask those type of questions? Do you say, like, how many, you know, how many traffic cones you have to sell in an hour, whatever?

David Feinman 15:34
So, so, no, but, but I'll tell you what we do that it is interesting. If you want me to share absolutely so what we do is, I mean, the first thing, obviously, with video guys, you look at their work, you know, the work is either good by our standards or not good by our standards. And then we hire, really based on cultural fit. After that, everything after, whether we everything after, the question is, is this work good enough and up to our standards, is, will you fit in here? And do you fit with our culture? Are the questions we try to get to. And you know, we found that we've been able to create a great company culture. You know, now at 11 people, because we've asked questions that aren't necessarily, how many traffic cones? How many traffic cones can you fit on the state, whatever? And Google, I mean, has a great reputation for having a great culture, but, you know, something we're trying to create is just a lot of togetherness, and, you know, stuff like that. So, you know, I think, I think it helps with with creativity, to have a good culture. So, yeah,

Dave Bullis 16:30
Yeah, absolutely, you got to find that team that sort of works together, and that's what I talk a lot about here on the podcast. And as it relates to, you know, film and even, you know, and marketing, obviously, and production. Because if you're going to be spending, you know, an ordered amount of time with people, you know, on a daily basis, on a weekly basis, and you know, when tempers flare, you want to make sure that everybody is on the same page, and not just going to freak out and start clashing. Because, you know, something I found out is you can really tell a lot about a company, not in times of, like, when everything's going good, but when it when things are going bad.

David Feinman 17:07
Yeah, I think what, I think, what's interesting too, is there's, you know, there's wartime generals and there's, like, peacetime generals, right? So, like, you know, this is with this from, like, hard thing, about hard things, about hard things. It's a book about running a company, basically like a wartime general is, you know, the CEOs and the leaders operating to be eliminate and when the when, when stuff's really bad, or even, like, when companies go through a rough patch, those are the leaders that could pull a company through, or pull, you know, pull a group of people through. And there's the peacetime generals that are kind of like a lot of I think what you see now is a lot of companies that are, you know, is a great economic time right now, it's a lot of companies that are doing incredibly well, just because it's a great economic time. And when that downfall happens, it'll be interesting to see, kind of, who makes it who makes it out alive. And I think it'll be a lot of the wartime generals that do that.

Dave Bullis 17:59
Yeah, that's very true. A lot of, a lot of the guys who maybe can make the hard decisions, you know, the wartime generals, the people that you know and the peacetime generals, maybe they can. They can, well, you know, just to sort of try to put what I'm trying to say into into another, another sentence I'm trying to I'm kind of running myself into a corner here, but it basically, if you know, everybody can run a company when it's doing well, you know what I mean, everything's going great. You know, you could put anybody in there and then, but, but it's really when times go bad and you're like, Well, what is my leaders made of? What are my managers made of? What have my idea people made of? And, you know, sometimes you see that and a bad and a bad day, you know what I mean, it doesn't have and when I say bad, you know, I don't mean just, you know, everything's going to crap, like the economy's going down, or something else. I mean, just in general, like a bad day, like, I mean, you've been there, Dave, you walk in, your phones don't work, your computer's crashed, you got a flat tire on the way to work, and you're like, What the hell is going to go wrong? Now, you know what I mean? It's one of those things where, well, you could say, Well, nothing's getting done today. Or you could try to just make something out of this bad day. You know what I mean?

David Feinman 19:08
Yeah, exactly. And I think too many people default to, oh, it's bad. I'm not going to do anything. I'm gonna lay on the sofa, yeah? So not, not to get kind of inspirational. But I think, I think, you know, half of a bad day is just a mindset, you know. You know, if you're, if you're having a bad day, the best way to get out of it is good, do something good.

Dave Bullis 19:30
Yeah, yeah. None of it very true, very true. So, you know, just to sort of talk about, again, about your company and some of the things you've done when we talk about Zombie Run. I actually saw the Zombie Run. And I was like, I gotta, we gotta talk about this. You know, with zombies have exploded over the past couple of years. You know, they've ebbed and flowed, you know, because with Romero's original trilogy of zombies, and then you have the remake of Dawn of the Dead, you have the walking dead on TV. Now you have all the, you know, when you first launched this idea. Was it met with resistance from from different people, or was it the complete opposite, and where you had, you know, maybe even investors or producers or somebody else going, Holy crap, Dave, this is amazing. How come no one's done this before?

David Feinman 20:23
We were met with a lot of people that were really fans the brand. So, so when you think about the, when you think about the zombie market, right? Let's, let's break it down. What kind of we'll kind of do this in like, a non zombie way. There's, there's a lot of hardcore zombie fans that watch every zombie movie. They like to, you know, go to the comic cons. They like to do all this stuff, but they don't have necessarily interest in running. But they they watch these zombie experience, they watch The Walking Dead, they watch these different, you know, post apocalyptic movies. And they kind of want to have that experience, so that the success of the zombie room was that spirit experience in real life. So we actually designed the set of the zombie. I call it the set, but the course of the Zombie Run like a Hollywood set. So we actually sat down and and we had the team watch for like, two, three days. We had them watch, you know, 1520, zombie movies. And we basically pulled out all the archetypal elements of a Hollywood zombie movie, and we incorporated them into the race. So everything from like the helicopter overhead to the fog and the smoke machines and the zombies never really come out in a zombie movie until like 20 minutes into the movie. So you wouldn't see the zombies until the to the end of the first half mile, just to build suspense.

Dave Bullis 21:38
And also it kind of works well too, because I'm sure you attract a lot of people who never actually worked out before that day. So they're like, all right, I know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna get in there, I'm gonna get a full head of steam, and I'm just gonna spray that finish line. And I'm sure, by like, I don't know, maybe, like, five minutes in, they're just like, Oh, God, what did I do to myself?

David Feinman 22:01
Yeah, there was definitely a lot of non athletes participating. A lot of people that like show up smoking, like it was, it was, it was an interesting crowd. And we loved every minute of it, you know, it was a good, it was a good bunch of people. So when they finally got to the zombies, who were so tired, they were so tired, they were just like, take my life, you know, it's over. You guys win this round.

Dave Bullis 22:23
Yeah. So So again, with all the zombie movies that you analyze, like, what were some of the better zombie movies that you remember analyzing?

David Feinman 22:33
My personal two favorite were, I Am Legend, and Shawn of the Dead, Shawn of the Dead, because it was well produced, but it was still cheesy and funny at the same time. And I Am Legend, because it's very rare that you see a movie like that tells so much story without sound. And for the first for the first bit of movie, there's almost like no sound, it's like one character and like his dog, or like a good bit of the movie until he meets that girl. So I just, I've and I can't even see that with, with our work at viral ideas, is some of our best work, is the work that we're able to do that stands alone without any sound, you know, and just uses the visuals so that those, those were kind of my, my two favorites for what it's worth.

Dave Bullis 23:23
Yeah, yeah. Two great movies. By the way, Shaun of the Dead is freaking awesome. When it came out, I was held by held by my thumbs not to watch it, because I was like, I don't want to see a zombie movie that makes fun of zombie movies. And I saw, and I was like, Oh, crap, this is awesome. Why did i Why did I not want to watch this?

David Feinman 23:39
It's, it's like, ironic. The whole thing's like, ironic, yeah,

Dave Bullis 23:44
And it's funny too, because you think about it, and if it really did happen to somebody, like a zombie outbreak happened, right? You would go to like, some place that you knew was safe. And his idea was literally a pub, you know, that was basically what he called a fortress with a rifle over the bar. And that's what that was his idea of, like, the Mecca, or the sort of, like, ultimate goal of safety. Was this right here. That's where I would be, just in a bar, over the cut I read. And also, I love how this idea of how it worked too, because it worked, because it's how most people are. You know, it's gonna work out. We're just gonna go there all drink to safety, and then, you know, and things are just gonna kind of work out, you know, yeah. So when you take the Zombie Run and you started to, actually, what year was that, by the way that you work with the Zombie Run?

David Feinman 24:38
So, so we started that in 2012 and had it till 2013 so basically, we had about about 35,000 people do it around the country in a year.

Dave Bullis 24:48
So, so when you were doing that, YouTube was, you know, obviously YouTube, at that point, Facebook Live, wasn't there yet. So if you did it differently now. In terms of just marketing, you know, what would you have done? What would you do differently if you did it now? Because, I mean, things have changed so much in terms of just social media, marketing and video in general,

David Feinman 25:11
I would have put, we put for the time. We put a lot of, you know, what was a lot of money into, into social video. I would have, I would have, I would have done more, more clips. You know, we did a lot of, basically, would make, like a little zombie movie after every, after every event. I would have done more. I would have done more, just more video. You know, we invested kind of all over the place, a little bit because we, because we still did, we did, still did some radio buys, but most of the revenue and traffic was just driven through Facebook ads. So kind of note, kind of hindsight, is 2020, I wish I just poured more into social because it just works so well.

Dave Bullis 25:50
And, you know, Facebook ads, I hear a lot of my friends actually use Facebook ads and marketing and stuff like that. And again, it goes back to video and and finding out, you know, getting all those hits off of Facebook. By the way, just as a side note, a friend of mine has a movie trailer up right now for the movie called The hatred, okay? And, and it is over 10 million views. Amazing, right? Yeah. And it's, it's, it's just people are sharing it, left, right and center. And I actually saw the numbers, and I was like, Holy crap, you guys want over 10 million freaking views, and the movie doesn't come out until September. So, like, just seeing that, that type of response, of those numbers, you I mean, you know, now people got to look at that and go, Jesus, Facebook going to take over YouTube in terms of getting trailers out there?

David Feinman 26:35
Yeah. I mean, it's not just trailers like I think, I think what's interesting, and a lot of this audience is very moving. So we work with, we work with a couple of local businesses. And, you know, one in particular, you think, you know, geez, like, could I ever make a video that would, you know, pop a little bit on Facebook for for a dental practice, and we work with, we work with a dental practice, and we, you know, with just a couple bucks on Facebook and a well produced video, we were able to, you know, I think we're pushing, you know, 20, 30,000 views for, like, a local dentist now. So it's, I think it's, I think the power of it is just in, in the targeting, and the ability to kind of put the right content in front of the right people, you know, at the right time.

Dave Bullis 27:19
Yeah, that targeted marketing, you know, and to your example about a local family dentist, you know, I'm sure people in the area who could actually go to that dentist, it obviously makes more sense, because, like, if you do a radio broadcast or try to buy an ad on TV, people get those and they're not in the area, you know, you're they can't. They're not going to travel, you know, 100 miles to go see Dr Tom or whatever. But if it's right down the street or in the neighborhood or whatever, they're more susceptible to, susceptible to actually go and say, Hey, wait, that's commercials right in the neighborhood. And it's all that targeted marketing, which is what Facebook does so well,

David Feinman 27:53
We had, I mean, let's, let's say you're gonna do a TV buy, or you're gonna, you're gonna put something in the newspaper. You know, we're able to reach that 2020, 30,000 people with, you know, just a fraction of the dollars, and you're hitting them somewhere that they're not used to being hit with something like this. So I So, I think the power of it, and the reason your friend got 10 million views is because people, people aren't used to seeing these movie trailers on Facebook. It's become a, I've seen a lot more that happening, you know, in the Facebook environment, and it's just, it's just blowing up.

Dave Bullis 28:24
So, you know, and we briefly touched on your business, final ideas, marketing. And, you know, obviously it's, it's, you know, you're about an hour away from me, and, you know, just seeing like, you know, these marketing companies like, like yourselves, and it's really cool, because I think, you know, it's, it opens up a lot of possibilities, you know, not just for, you know, the consumer, but also for businesses. Because now a lot of these small businesses do need commercials, and they don't know where to go to, you know what I mean?

David Feinman 28:49
And what's interesting is, we don't even consider them, you know, we don't like the word commercial, per se, because commercial us is a 32nd spot. But with Facebook and YouTube, people really want to see a story, and like, I don't know, I'll be curious to hear your opinion, too. But you know, they want to see the same structural archetype as a movie or a television show, because that's what's entertaining. You know, when you watch a movie or you watch TV shows, the same format, you know, and kind of, as filmmakers, we know that, we know that, end of it. But as you know, as marketers, you don't really, you don't really think about it. You don't really think, Oh, I'm just going to do my commercial. I'm gonna do my pitch. But if you do, if you do a, basically a three to four minute movie versus doing a 32nd commercial, I feel like the impact is, you know, we've seen it with our clients, just so much, so much more.

Dave Bullis 29:34
Yeah, there is a lot of storytelling involved. And I concur, because that is the what people want to see on social to, even when they're telling a joke or something, you know, it's they actually want to see something relatable, or they want to see, you know, they want to see be, you know, be told something I don't think, I think, you know, people are susceptible now to being marketed to, of course, or being sold to. So if you're actually not in trying to just say, how could I sell this? But how could I actually tell a story with this? I think it's a little more more powerful. You know what I mean?

David Feinman 30:17
Yes. Oh yeah. 100%

Dave Bullis 30:20
So let me, you know, let me ask you this. When people pitch, you know, or maybe even go to you and say, Hey, Dave, I have a local business. We know, what could we do? And I have to ask this question, because it's in the name of your business, going viral. I imagine a lot of people have an idea of what viral is. You know what I mean. I'm sure they probably go, Hey, listen, I want to, you know, I want to get shared on the local news network or whatever. I want to get shared here. And if people come to you and say they want to go viral, off the bat, do you just immediately, like, talk them off that ledge. Like, don't even worry about that.

David Feinman 30:53
So viral, viral to us, is probably not, not what you think. You know, people think viral. They think millions of views, news, appearances, all that, but it starts with the seed, and that seed is sharing. So the reason something goes viral and the reason something has a sticky potential is because someone shares it. So when we design videos, and, you know, when we design stuff, you know, movies and televisions are designed to be shared, there's those corporate videos should be any different. So when people are marketing a particular video, they should design it to be shared by someone else. So when you think, okay, let's say I can make a video and I can get as a local business, I can get 35 people to share it to us. That's a win, because you now have 35 people that are willing to share your content with their friends, versus if you did a commercial, who's going to share a commercial?

Dave Bullis 31:44
Yeah, I concur. I remember there was a commercial done a few years back, and it looked, it looked like they just basically, the morning of, decided to make this commercial. They just sort of threw everything together. And I was like, what? I don't know, who this is even appealing to, you know, and it was for this company right down the street, and I actually had some friends that were actually in it. And I'm like, I don't get it. I just don't get it. Was for, it was for a local car a car dealership. And usually, you know, they're kind of, they're kind of out there anyway. But this one was especially, like, so poorly done. I mean, maybe we'll try to be ironic. I don't know, I still don't get it, but, but it's stuff like that. Like, no, I could never imagine anyone sharing a commercial like that, right? So when we talk about, you know, things being sticky, you know, like the ideas actually stick, you know, the ideas that actually hang around, and maybe even things that people remember, you know. So if somebody does come to you, do you have like, do you have like, a, maybe even a niche or so that you try to stick to? Or is it like you want to try to you? Can you have different ideas for various companies? Like you mentioned a dentist, I mentioned a car company. So if somebody comes to you and says, Hey, Dave, I have an idea, or I'm sorry, I have a business, it's a doggy daycare, or I have a business. It's, we sell, you know, a big ones, restaurants, I imagine now I'm just talking out loud and just sort of, you know, thinking about loud restaurants are probably big, so I imagine telling the story about their restaurant is probably very important, so that way people will share it on social, right?

David Feinman 33:18
Yeah, I think it's for for us, it's, it's narrative storytelling for the internet. So, you know, we work with everything from Fortune 1000 down to local realtors, but kind of what we've seen works well. And when clients, you know, okay, because it is, it is something a little different, you know, doing, doing something that's taking a little bit more of a quote, unquote risk. So when I say risk, you know, it's something that's a little out of the box. So, for example, we recently just did one for a staffing company. It was, it was called five reasons why. It was about five reasons why you won't get hired. And went through funny things on a resume. So, so things like, things like that, and concepts like that are going to be, what? What are sticky versus something that you know has just been done over and over and over again?

Dave Bullis 34:07
What are those five things that you stay away from?

David Feinman 34:10
Well, you all good. I You don't. You don't want to curse off with the guy when you go in. You know, you don't want to. And I've only ever hired people so I, you know, I don't. I actually had a couple jobs when I was when I was younger, but for the most part, since, since senior year of college, I've only ever worked for myself.

Dave Bullis 34:28
But does anybody really go into a job? And I couldn't imagine being a in a job interview and cursing at the person. I couldn't just imagine that like, you know, I couldn't, I mean, does it?

David Feinman 34:41
I mean, the worst, the worst that, the worst that you'll get for job interviews that, from what I've seen, is like, people that'll just kind of, kind of ask you, like, ask you, quite like, what company is this? You know, like, I'm just, like, you just, you just Google it for five minutes before you come in for the interview. I. Stuff like that. But I don't want to get fired up around that topic, because we already, we already went on a tangent about food,

Dave Bullis 35:07
By the way. What company do you is that? Dave viral ideas marketing. What do you guys actually do there? By the way? No, no, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I don't want to, I know, stay we sell staplers, staplers of all colors. But no, everyone has a hot button issue, man. And you know, whenever you're around a topic that you're passionate about, and then somebody comes in and just, kind of just tries to blow you off, or tries to, like, sneak past the goalie, so to speak, and you're like, What the hell are you doing? You know what? I mean, like, what are you trying to do? It's like, I mean, I see it in film sometime too, where they're like, out to I'll give you an example, Dave. I actually had a guy who sent me an email one time told me how much he loved the podcast, how much he loved this and that, how much blah, blah, blah, blah. So he wanted to talk to me, so I ended up just, you know, doing a little Skype interview, like we're doing now. Yeah, and he's asked me all these questions, like, so what? How many episodes do you have, this, that, and the other thing? And I go, if you love the podcast so much and you're so into this, wouldn't you know what episode I announced the episode number before we get into every episode. I always say this is episode 171, with guests. And I mean, for God's sakes, and it says it right on there too. I mean, five minutes, five seconds, even, he could have just found out all these answers,

David Feinman 36:25
Or at least, at least do a little bit of your homework before you get on.

Dave Bullis 36:30
So does that happen a lot though, Dave, do people actually just try to say things like, you know, hey, Dave, I want to meet you for coffee, and I want to, I just want to, you know, let me buy you a coffee, I'll pick your brain for five minutes or or whatever, about marketing or whatever, and then you end up just, you know, you meet for coffee and they're trying to pitch you a business or something like that. Does that happen a lot?

David Feinman 36:50
No, that doesn't happen to me that much. And I'm happy, you know, I'm so early in my career, I'm happy to take any meeting with anyone that wants to talk to me. You know, it's that's not a big deal. I mean, especially if it's just a phone call, kind of with the interview. But we're hiring right now for we have two more, two summer interns that were two fall interns, rather that we're hiring. And my big, my biggest pet peeve, and hopefully some of them are listening to this while they're applying. But, you know, it says very clearly in the thing, you know, give us your reel, and then you'll go in, then you'll look at the resume, and you'll look through the cover letter, and there's no real so, you know that's like, one of like, that's the only requirement we have for summer video or fall video interns, is like, send us your reel, and they won't send us their reel. So, like, it's just like, usually those people, when you ask them for their reel and they give it to you, usually there's, there's something else, whether just not detail oriented, or there's something that you see, it's more than just, you know, reading instruct, basic instructions. There's more to it.

Dave Bullis 37:48
Yeah. And this should be a good barometer, too. If they come into the interview or whatever, and they say, Hey, I heard your podcast interview on here, or I heard your podcast interview there, that should be a good interview. That should be a good indicator, because then, you know, hey, look, they at least cared enough to to listen to a podcast interview while they drove somewhere, or they were out walking their dog or whatever. You know, what I mean, they sort of, they cared enough to make that first step

David Feinman 38:12
Exactly like, like, even, even for the setup, you know, like, our conversation here was, it was interesting, like, Carly told me what we're doing this. So I listened to, you know, one at the gym. And, like, what, you know, half of one, you know, it's like, I listen to it every week. But like, at least, like, at least you put, you put some time, and you listen to a couple. And just to kind of get an idea of what the conversation is going to be like,

Dave Bullis 38:36
Yeah, I agree 100% and, you know, just to go back to that guy I was talking about when I was like, you have a listen to what episode I was like, maybe. And honestly, this is where I at least respected him. He was like, Well, you talk to a lot of really cool people. And he's like, You look like you have a deep network. And I'm like, well, thank you, I do, and it's not for you. Yeah, yeah. Seriously. I'm like, What the hell is this, man? It's like, and now, now we're gonna, we're kind of getting on my pet peeve this is like, people, people want me to, like, produce their projects. And I get that a lot. I mean, I get that a ton. That's probably the number one question I get emails. I'm just kind of, I just don't even answer them anymore. And it's just like, I don't know if they think that I just sit around, I have nothing to do other than, like, this podcast and produce a film. The last thing I tried to produce was with a friend of mine, and it went nowhere. And I swore, I was like, I'm never producing another person's project again. Only my stuff, nobody else's stuff. It's just, it's just too much of a hassle. It because you have meetings and stuff like that. You know, you have to, you have to pitch VCs. You have to pitch you have to get private equity. You have to get a big place, yeah, yeah. You have to get, you know, lawyers are involved. Why? Because they're drawing up contracts. You're drawing ppms up, you know, and all these things all matter. And they're just looking at me, like, well, well,

David Feinman 39:52
Just to produce it. Just produce it. You know, it's interesting client. Clients are like, clients are a little bit like that too. You know before we know, before we work with them, they're like, hey, you know what? Why does it take, you know? Why does it take this long to produce a video? And we'll, you know, I want it tomorrow. And no, we'll be like, well, it's not like buying, you know, Tylenol and Rite Aid, you know, we get, we have to, like, come up with your concepts. We have to do pre planning. If you have actors, you have to put out a casting call. You have to, you know, make sure the people that are acting for you are representing your brand. And then you're like, Well, why don't you just pick an actor? Well, you know, you have a brand that you built for years. You want, you know, you know, some actor that just has no experience to just be your representative for your brand. Like, okay, I can. So then eventually, kind of, once they see the process, it's kind of like, then, then they're, then they're happy to kind of allow that timeframe to happen.

Dave Bullis 40:54
Yeah, because, yeah, because that commercial, I'm sorry, not commercial. Sorry that, you know, but that will be, you know that that's, that's all that is, you know, represented the brand. Again, like you said, with actors, you know, you want to make sure there's, there's a saying in business to hire slow, fire, fast and, and that's what you got to do. You know, you got to hire these, these, these actors and crew and everybody slow and that defer. And, you know, you can't be afraid to let them go to if it's not, if it's just not working out,

David Feinman 41:21
Of course,

Dave Bullis 41:24
But you know, as we go back to making commercials, I have to ask a question to Dave, have you ever had and this has happened to me, and I want to know if it's happened to you, have you ever had anybody say to you, Well, why would I hire you to do videography or to make this marketing component, my daughter's got an iPhone and she spends all day on Facebook. I could hire her to do it at a fraction of the price, and that's actually happened to me before somebody I was going to do videography for this, for this guy to just cover all these meetings and this, that and the other thing. And he goes, but my daughter is on Facebook. My daughter's got a camera. My daughter's in her iPhone. And I said, Your daughter doesn't do B to B sales or B to C sales. She doesn't know how to edit anything, I guarantee you that. And I mean, I was just wondering, has that anything like that ever happened to you?

David Feinman 42:13
Oh, yeah. Well, I think a lot of people say that when they don't see the value of it. I have, I have a very strong, like, you know, sales privilege. I do most of the sales for viral. And, you know, I've seen that a couple of times, and my response is, all right, go, go, have your daughter do it. Call me in two months, you know. And then they chuckle, or whatever, and they're like, all right, whatever. You know that because, because, I think a lot of times they don't get it. They think that, you know, I'm producing something for the television, you know, if you know, and that's something that requires crews and everything. But if you're producing something for social, you could just, you know, throw it together really quickly. And it's not like that. There's a lot of psychology that goes into producing something like this that's more than just, you know, taking a picture or throwing up a quick selfie video.

Dave Bullis 42:58
Yeah, absolutely. And when you say, like, Hey, you have your you know, you'll be calling me in two months. You know that actually happened. But this guy, the guy was talking about his son, actually called me to ask me how to use these different things, because they actually tried to make a video, and they were actually saying, hey, like, Could you help me out here? And I was like, No. I was like, tell you, I actually helped him out one time, really, because a quick question. It was a quick question. It was a quick question about how to edit something in and I think premiere, they bought the 30 day trial and I and yeah. And later on, he asked me something else. I'm like, Look, tell your dad, this is your guys are in over your head, and tell him to write me a check. And then we'll sit down and we'll go over all this stuff. And his dad ended up calling me up. And we ended up actually, him, him actually paying me to do this, and we pulled it out of a nosedive, but, but it's, you know, again, stuff like that, you know, it's nowadays people look at it and they go, Oh, I can do that because I have an iPad, I have an iPhone or whatever, but, but really, there's, there's so much more to it than just having, you know, a ready, available camera.

David Feinman 43:59
And I think kind of one thing you know, from someone who owns, someone who owns a company, we've done probably over 300 videos for various companies, and I think one of the biggest things we've we've learned from it, is the level of detail that we're able to go into in a lot of these videos that are that you almost don't notice, but you notice if they're not there. It's kind of like the biggest thing that people kind of say to us, though, I I see that detail, but it's part, just part of it. You know what I mean that you don't get when you're just doing something that's amateur, you know, it's something that, something might as simple as, like, a prop there, that that should be there, just because it's like, that's a natural environment. People, some people don't, don't think to set something like that up, or the lighting and the sound and all, you know, everything that goes into it, you know, to make it as real as possible, or to make it, you know, in the interpretation that you want it. You know, I think when people do it from an amateur perspective, they're not looking at all these things that make a big impact. And how you're marketing,

Dave Bullis 45:02
Yeah, and somebody once told me, If you want to know, that the big difference between the amateur and the professional, the amateur locks the camera down and it never moves right. It's always just in that one static position, like we're watching a silent movie, and it's like, you could see what they, they they're trying to do, and they're just like, look, well, you know, they don't use terms like shots or pans or pans, or whatever, they just go, Look, we're just gonna, we're gonna film this, we're gonna get this, and then we're gonna move on, you know, and we're gonna put this all together. And then when they start putting it together, like, Oh, this is why, this is why we should.

David Feinman 45:30
It's funny, you say that about the, about the static shots, we actually, we actually, I think only own two tripods. The rest is sliders, awesome. So it's, I mean, it's all, it's all, you know, sliders, or, you know, Ronan, whatever you know stuff to keep the shots moving.

Dave Bullis 45:45
Yeah. And I think that's key too, because not only is it, is it awesome for viral, but again, you want people to share this. You want people to say, Hey, I had a friend who made a drone video, and people were like sharing it, left, right and center. And it's just that, you know, those ideas that are, that are shareable. And, you know, again, it's always that cool content. Everyone wants to post the next cool thing, right?

David Feinman 46:06
Of course, always, always and forever.

Dave Bullis 46:10
So, you know, Dave, you know, we've been talking for about, you know, 45 minutes now. So, you know, just to sort of put a period there this whole conversation, is there anything we need to talk about that you wanted to talk about now and then we get a chance to or do you have anything, any sort of final thoughts you wanted to say?

David Feinman 46:26
No, no, I guess, kind of like the biggest message that I always like to get across is, you know, I think, I think a lot of times film makers and creatives come up with these amazing ideas for for films and for short films. And I think, I think a lot more could be doing work with corporations if they applied that same mindset to companies that they apply to making a film. And it works really well. We've seen it work really well with companies. And it's just a matter of, you know, the film, a filmmaker's willingness to to, kind of, you know, maybe bend a little bit to the corporations and a, you know, and a company's willingness to just take a little bit of a risk, to do something a little bit different, that might be able to get the word across,

Dave Bullis 47:02
Yeah, it's, um, it's a very interesting time, you know, it's very interesting time for creatives to, it's just being able to, you know, like, like this. You know, the barriers to podcasting have have gone down, but the good podcasts have stayed around, you know what I mean. And I've managed to sort of sneak in there too when no one was looking, but, but the other but the good podcast, you know, like Mark Marris, WTF, the Nerdist and stuff like that. You know, every week they're producing it, and you can hear it. You can hear the difference between a good, good podcast and a blog podcast about the mics and the editing and everything else. You know you can tell when you're listening to an actual podcast that somebody cared about making exactly the same, exact same with video exactly. So Dave, we will find you out online.

David Feinman 47:54
So check out the website, viralideamarketing.com, or email if you, if you can, feel free to reach out to me. I can give you the best pretzel advice in the world, or video or business, whatever it's. [email protected], you know, feel free to, you know, I'm very, I'm a very helpful person. I love to always get back so does anything can help anyone with or if anyone wants to, you know, talk about a project or anything. I'm, you know, happy to, you know, happy to extend some time to you.

Dave Bullis 48:23
I hope the professors at Temple, like, you know, utilize you. And I mean that in a good way. I hope they are actually saying, like, hey, look, we have an alumni here. He's out there kicking ass and taking names, you know, and he I hope that they're doing that, I mean, you know, in a very positive way.

David Feinman 48:39
Yeah, I was, I was lucky. I love really great professors, and some of them, actually, I've been really honored to, like, come back and, you know, present a few times to, you know, various studies. And I actually very happy, and, you know, honored to be able to do it, you know, just to give back to the alma mater like that.

Dave Bullis 48:58
And that's good too, because, you know, again, Temple blown away by the school, huge, huge school. If you ever been a temple, by the way, for ever listening to this on like, the West Coast or in other countries, because I'm very popular in Canada, really.

David Feinman 49:12
You know what's great about Canada is, you know, Nathan for you. You ever watch that show? No, I haven't. So it's just this guy who does these, like crazy marketing game. I'm sure there's a lot of people that are listening that are listening that actually seen it. He's coming back in September. I just recently saw, like, right before we hopped on, I saw an announcement about him. I'm like, Really, you would actually love the show, one of the funny, like, one of the funniest shows I've ever watched, just these ridiculous marketing campaigns. But he's from Canada, so you're popular in Canada, maybe a little bit more so the Nathan for you,

Dave Bullis 49:44
Yeah, just a tad bit to tap it. And then then there's Justin Trudeau from the Canadian Prime Minister, but, but, yeah,

David Feinman 49:51
He's third on the list. Exactly. He's the Bullis first. Nathan for you, second, and then the Prime Minister, third.

Dave Bullis 50:08
Yeah, so I can't go, I can't walk down the streets of British Columbia without being just mobbed by by people. So, so, so you know, it just when I look at analytics, too. I know you're a big analytics guy too, Dave, I sometimes see I'm like, why is somebody from Saudi Arabia playing this podcast? Why is somebody from, you know? I mean, I just see it and all over the world. So one of my badges of honor is I have all 50 states. I have all six continents, because we're not going to count Antarctica. No one's no one's there, except for maybe Kurt Russell in the thing.

David Feinman 50:41
It's all right, after don't write off Antarctica, you know, maybe this one is the first one, you know, yeah, maybe. Well, I mean, we could be a big hit in Antarctica. Never know.

Dave Bullis 50:52
We just, it would just be unbelievable. Because I actually was trying to figure out if there's even a way. And I'm like, Well, you know, it's kind of like, if somebody is on like, one of those stations and plays it that counts. That would be it. I was like, please, you know, turn on just one listen.

David Feinman 51:06
You can listen for three minutes and then hang up. We're still talking about cheese sticks. Then.

Dave Bullis 51:13
So, yeah. And so I've hit all six continents, and now I'm slowly working to have at least one download in every country, if I could get one. In every country, there's only a few left, by the way, which is funny enough, a few left. Yeah, it's all this started, you know, and that's why I want to talk to you Dave, you know, just got, you know, doing all this media work. I think media is so important now. And I think small businesses to the social the media part, you know, just being on Facebook, Twitter and finding their niche. You know, if you're, and I always go back to a restaurant, if you're a restaurant, you know, I always say, Facebook, Instagram, right, right off the bat, Facebook, Instagram, what's crazy.

David Feinman 51:49
And I know we're, I know we're kind of running up on time, but we were working with a restaurant, and they put out 20 bucks in Facebook ads, you know, to the people that work in local businesses surrounding them. They do sandwiches, something, something like that, lying out the door 20 bucks. I mean, I imagine those customers. Imagine those customers. That's their first time in there. They come back, you know, couple times a week. You know. Now you got, you know, let's say they buy your sandwich for 20 bucks. You know. Now you have your 20 bucks twice a week, $10 a sandwich. Now you have customers that are spending 1000 bucks with you a year. It's unbelievable,

Dave Bullis 52:27
Yeah, by the way, I not to. I know you got to go to have you ever seen that interview that Gary V did with John Taffer, and John Taffer explained how to actually keep customers. So basically, I'll just give you the quick, concise version of this conversation. He said, the first time someone comes to your restaurant, he goes, there's statistical analysis of a first time, second time, third time, and then a fourth time customer. And he said, the first time they come in, what he does is they get a red napkin. Hey, this is your first time here. Dave, all right, come this way. Here's your complimentary rib dinner, your prime rib dinner. Hey, how did you like your prime rib Well, you know, they're a first time customer, as does all the weight staff and everybody else, because they have that red napkin. Nobody else, except first time customers, have that red napkin. Hey, how'd you enjoy your rib dinner? Oh, we loved it second time around. So great did? Well, here you go. Here's a coupon, and you hand write the coupon, you know, 20% off the chicken dinner or whatever else. Try this. You're going to love it. They come back second time, and you keep doing this because it statistically has proven that a fourth time, if they come back, a fourth time, they'll come back for life because they love they have those experiences. So you're not marketing to them from one visit or two visits or three visits, but you're marketing them through all four of those visits. So they'll keep coming back.

David Feinman 53:45
I see the same I see the same thing in my visit business. You know, people do one video with us, and they'll do a second and a third. And our best customers, you know, we've worked with, you know, over 100 companies at this point. And our best customers give us, you know, referrals. And they, they, they keep ordering from us over and over again. But it's, I mean, you're to that point. It takes a couple times before they, you know, before they get in and they'll kind of, they'll kind of trust you after a little bit,

Dave Bullis 54:12
Yeah. And then then it becomes just, hey, you know what? I'm really in the mood for a good meal. Hey, I'm in the mood for, you know, a good video. You know, I need, you know what? I mean,

David Feinman 54:21
What do you want up in 24 hours?

Dave Bullis 54:25
Come on, I need it now. What's so hard about it?

David Feinman 54:28
Yeah, just put the turkey on the bottom and just turn the camera.

Dave Bullis 54:32
I just, yeah, exactly right. I just want a picture of a stove. Yeah, yeah. I could. I could talk to you for a little while longer, because I have a funny story about a guy who tried to make a video of a restaurant. And I should, I should have got it into the end of the end of this conversation, but I know we're running out of time. And Dave, I want to say again, everybody listening to this, I'm going to put Dave's stuff in the in the show notes, contact him in the Philadelphia area and take him out on a pretzel pretzel meeting. That'll be the new thing. No no more call. Meetings. There's pretzel meetings.

David Feinman 55:01
Now, the big thing all day, baby, let's go.

Dave Bullis 55:05
Dave I want to say thank you so much for coming on, man.

David Feinman 55:07
Hey, thanks for having me.