BPS 142: Changing Television Forever with Showrunner David Chase

Alex Ferrari 0:08
I'd like to welcome to the show, David Chase. Thank you so much, David, for coming on the show. I really appreciate your time.

David Chase 0:16
Nice to see you.

Alex Ferrari 0:17
Thank you, my friend. So, you know, I'd like to just start off with how did you get started in the business? How did you What was your first entry into this business?

David Chase 0:34
I went to film school. And while I was there, I co wrote a script, a spec script, which our film, which our screenwriting teacher sent to a TV producer named Roy Hogan. And so we created Maverick. You know, that is, of course,

Alex Ferrari 0:57
it was Jim's spot for us, I think garden

David Chase 1:03
Maverick and run for your life and a bunch of other stuff. And he liked the script, my friend had given up and go back to Chicago. And like a year later, this guy called me or I don't forget, we got he got in touch with me universal, gotten in touch with me and said to call him and he hired me to do an episode and professional writing job.

Alex Ferrari 1:34
Now how but what made you want to become a writer? What made you want to become a filmmaker in general?

David Chase 1:43
Well, something was drawing after a certain age. In high school, I think something was drawing me to what we now call showbusiness. Right. And we call it that then, but it wasn't showbusiness that was drawing me it was. I didn't realize it then. But it was art, I guess. We didn't say it was pop art, but it was art. because of things like Twilight Zone

Alex Ferrari 2:21
I chose.

David Chase 2:23
But mostly, it was the Beatles and The stones that plan doing that got me interested in creating things. And I wanted to be a rock and roll performer for a long time. I played the drums and I was also lead vocalist in this nothing band that never went anywhere. And at the same time, I was I had switched schools and I was going to school. No, no, I remember now see you ever gonna regret this? I went to a school, a college in North Carolina called Wake Forest college, which is now Wake Forest. University. And it was a very, I don't know why I went down. There was a was a mistake. There was the South in 1963. And the Klan was active and all those bad things were going on. And I don't think there was one black student there was one black student in the freshman class. And I believe he was from Africa. And Ghana gambling wasn't allowed on campus. Dancing wasn't allowed on campus. Drinking wasn't allowed on campus and playing cards was not allowed on campus. It was it was the Sunday I don't know whether they owned it or who was affiliated with the southern baptist church. And somehow or other on Friday nights. So you can imagine. Listen to Tim. Well, here's the thing. It was still. It was a good college. I mean, the teaching was good. It wasn't really anti diluvian. You know, we're not talking about Jerry Falwell Academy or whatever. And on Friday nights, I don't know who did it or why they had a foreign film night. And so I saw Well, you name it. All the ones you need to see. I saw eight and

Alex Ferrari 4:35
of course our Fellini. Yeah.

David Chase 4:37
Yeah, it is. I mean, I don't know how many weeks you're in the semester, but it's all one every week. And I was I was completely blown away. I mean, I had like movies. And so I was a kid and I like television, you know, I just liked it. And maybe always wanted to be part of something like that. So I saw I saw those movies. And then comes Bob Dylan. And then comes the Beatles, and within a few months, the Rolling Stones, and that to me, was art. And that's what I wanted to do. And I had seen one Fellini film the age of 15 or 16. It was part of a trilogy. I forget what it was called but the his part was called the something of the temptation of Dr. Antonio anyone I've seen a movie like that. I couldn't conceive. It was just so wonderful. It was so imaginative It was so out there.

Alex Ferrari 5:52
Selena

David Chase 5:54
always loved movies but I'd never seen a movie like that.

Alex Ferrari 5:57
So all those years that you were working in, especially in the early years working in the writers rooms on on shows like The Rockford Files and and things like that. Did you what was the biggest lesson you took out of working in a writers room like you know either tips or tricks that to survive in a writers room or thrive in a writers room or how to crack a story? What does that less than that the one thing that you took from the early years

David Chase 6:25
well, I did not work in writers rooms until until I got the Northern Exposure okay there were no writers rose at the time when I was starting Rockford house was written by Stephen Cannell Juanita Bartlett, me and occasionally Gordon Dawson. There was no writers rooms and we our whole way of breaking story was different. And I before my time, I guess when I was still a kid, the standard I guess the Writers Guild definition of television was there was a producer, a story editor. And like for the defenders, you know, that is I remember the defenders. Yeah, but the defenders are Naked City or whatever. There was a producer, a story editor at an older writers were hired from a freelance world of freelance writing. And we've got more and more group oriented as time went on,

Alex Ferrari 7:37
do you like the older way or the writers room way?

David Chase 7:47
I think I like the writers room way. Honestly, because you could, you were swapping stories and memories. I mean, the other way was great, too. But when you sat down to break a story, that's what you did. You talked about the story. And it had very little to do with your real life. But writers rooms for whatever reason, at lunch, or even whatever it was, people would start the bullshit, start to shoot the shit. And that was always fun. Obviously, it's like, you know, like, seminal guys hanging out at a gas station in Virginia, you know. And let's read a lot of the stories we come from. If you and I were in with six other people, you tell a story about what happened to you when you crash the car into your father's station wagon or whatever. And that becomes a story somehow not in that form. But of course, it was a story. And I really liked I liked the socialization of the writers.

Alex Ferrari 8:51
Now when you when you had the idea for the sopranos, how did the sopranos come to, to life into an agenda?

David Chase 8:59
It came to life because my mother Norma Jace was I would say, mentally ill. And he took care of me. He wasn't like institutionalised, but he took care of me if you worried about me, she was a good mother. She did. But she was full of fears, obsessions, hatreds, and all that which was passed down to me. And also which were many of which were ludicrous. And I would tell people stories about my mother and I would always get a laugh and I My wife said to me when we got we weren't of your late 20s. So you got to write something about your mother someday, you got to write a show about your mother. And I didn't, didn't have any idea of how to go about that. And then later on, I was doing a show. I was I created and was running called, almost grown. And one of the writers Robin green said, you ought to write a series about your mother, like a producer with a mother, a troublesome mother. And I, I heard that, but I thought, who wants to see that a TV producer and his mother looks like anything. And then I realized, well, maybe if it was a tough guy who was a guy in the mafia, and his mother, maybe that would be good. And I tried to pitch that as a movie with Robert De Niro and Anne Bancroft. And wasn't much interest in my agent told me forget about it, mob comedies are going nowhere. And mob movies, so I let it be. And then someone. Years later, when I was signed with a company called Brillstein gray, to develop TV shows, they told me that they thought, how would I like they said, I had a great sick TV series, and it's inside me. I had never thought of and didn't want. I wanted to be in the movies. I was intelligent, because I'd gotten in there and and took the jack took the money. But I didn't want to be there. I want to I was always writing movie scripts on spec. So they said, How about do a TV version of the Godfather? And I said, No, I have no interest in that random. I thought the Godfather has been done. You get a bunch of guys, long coats and 50s cars. And then I was driving home. And I thought I'm going to a movie but the model mid level mobster with a troublesome mother tries to kill him because she, he put her in a nursing home. I thought maybe that'd be a TV show. And about him and his family and his work. And maybe that would work in TV because it's got a lot of interesting women in it. And TV, in many ways is kind of a was a woman's medium. At least that's what I thought. And so we pitched it to Fox, they bought it. I did a script. They didn't buy that. But two years went by Brad gray, the head of the company, went to Chris Albrecht at HBO told him the story pitched it to him. I went there. And then there's it also in my version, they bought it.

Alex Ferrari 13:02
And so when you when you started doing the it seems to me from watching the series, that I mean, you were breaking rules left and right. I mean with the you know, with Tony Soprano is the protagonist and, and the anti hero and television It was kind of like not really, there was nothing like that in network television before. No, nothing like that before. And you You didn't just sit on that you kept pushing. You kept like Episode Five, specifically a college, which is one of my favorite episodes. It's really a game changing episode because of the way Tony is the first time you see the main character of a TV series, do some extreme violence. On screen. No, no fluff. I and I've heard from from other interviews, you've done that. At the studio, HBO was like, you're going to you're going to destroy the show before I even get started.

David Chase 14:00
Chris Albrecht, who never gave me a moment's aggravation about anything. And said some very smart things when we were getting started. Crystal Breton's really angry. And I said, Well, you had the script. You know, that's the purpose of giving you the script. So you read it say they at that time before we spent all this money. Stop. Well, it didn't dawn on me until I saw it on the screen. Anyway, yeah.

Alex Ferrari 14:33
And, and, and I also notice that you love to do kind of almost one offs. Kind of like episodes that are standalone, that are not specifically about the overarching plot of the season, which is also against the grill against the grain as well, because normal normal shows, at least prior to its paranhos would you know every episode had to move things along, but you almost went to crap. character development in life, specifically, episode college. You know, it really didn't have anything to really do with the overarching plot. But but the development of Tony Soprano and his daughter's relationship is, is game changing? Is that is that did you did you love going into this when you were doing series? to do these stand? alones just to kind of explore characters? Oh, yes,

David Chase 15:26
I did. Well see, my whole thing was okay, I've got a, they want me to do 13 episodes of this thing. But what I can do, what I want to do is 13 little movies that are just making movies. But with this show. And I think it was, I don't know, HBO or Brillstein gray or whoever it was said notice the the the episodes she tied together, there should be an overall plot in in the season, and I was really against that I don't want to do that. It's I said, it's gonna be like Dallas, like a fucking soap opera. I don't want to do that. Right. And I don't know whether they talked me into it. All right. I just knuckled under. And actually that you know, they were it. I think we really made something that I think it became one of the best part to the show.

Alex Ferrari 16:32
But you but when you're doing all of this, I mean, you're you're really going against the grain on on so many things of television. I mean, when you were doing the

David Chase 16:44
officially because you said something like normal show, all the episodes would have to be connected. Not true. Most television the episode, it's the same fucking characters, but the episodes are not connected. Just Maggie and David, fall in love. Next week. Maggie and David are involved.

Alex Ferrari 17:08
Yeah, but like you were saying like Dallas like soap operas, it was kind of like that kind of overworking thing is what I was talking about. But when you were in the middle of season one, when, you know, did you know that you were pushing in breaking these rules that had been in place for so long? With these characters? Did you? Did you consciously understand that you were really just, I'm just gonna do whatever the hell I want. And, and I'm just gonna go for it.

David Chase 17:31
Yes, I did.

Alex Ferrari 17:34
That's exactly. So you're literally just like, I know what I'm doing. And I'm just going to push the envelope to see how far I could push it before someone stops me.

David Chase 17:43
That's true. Except for I did not say I know what I'm doing. Usually what I said was, okay, put your money where your mouth is. And it's all a big experiment. And that's what life is like. So

Alex Ferrari 17:59
you just went in? Yeah. You just wrote this kind of like, Okay, let's go. Let's see what happens.

David Chase 18:04
Yeah, I had been in the TV business a long time. And I was so fed up. And I hadn't gotten. I hadn't gotten my dream come true, which was to make movies. And I've been in TV a long time, I was thoroughly fed up and disgusted with network television. And I was 54 years old. And I thought, you know what? If it doesn't work, doesn't work. You'll have to come back and try something else, if they'll let you back in.

Alex Ferrari 18:40
So this was your swing at the play is what you said this was basically a similar play.

David Chase 18:44
That was it. That was my swing at the plate. And and I'm trying to keep the baseball analogy alive. But

Alex Ferrari 18:54
it's either well is either I mean, if when you take big swings like that, which I'm so glad you did. But when you take big swings like that you could easily strike out and then kicked out and get kicked out of the ballpark, which could have very easily happened with the show. Or you hit a Grand Slam, which is

David Chase 19:10
right. Yeah, right. And whichever happens more often a Grand Slam or getting escorted out three to nothing.

Alex Ferrari 19:20
Or getting escorted out of the game, period and make sure that when he can't play anymore anyway. Now, I'd love to hear your opinion is what is the job of a writer in network television today? What should they be? What should their goal be?

David Chase 19:41
What is the job of a writer and network television to the

Alex Ferrari 19:45
story wise, story wise or what you know, just in the end the craft of it not as much the actual technical job at the the craft of it. What should they be striving for?

David Chase 19:56
Well, I mean the way you phrase it If it's a job, that means you've been hired to do the job. Yeah. You have to give them some with what they want. That's why you're there. No, that's not why you're? No, yes, it is. I mean, you're there because they saw something which they think could be beneficial to them. So you need, you need to be aware of that. But you have to express yourself, that's your your, they wouldn't want you to, they wouldn't want to say this. Your job, if they're paying you for it, is to express yourself the best way you can, as completely and thoroughly that honestly,

Alex Ferrari 20:59
in the entire run of the series. Was there an episode that you said, I think I might have gone too far? No, not one.

David Chase 21:08
You just know, we're somewhere I said. I don't I don't like this as much as other ones. The Italian of the trip to Italy. probably could have done with that. But no, I never thought we would go too far. Never.

Alex Ferrari 21:25
And I also and I know I mean, one of the more controversial parts of the entire series was the ending. I personally loved the ending because of what the ambiguity of it and that he I know everybody wanted to see Tony's face in a bowl of Marin era, but many didn't. Many did. Many did. But you see, that's the thing. It's so it's like you're either on one camp or the other. But I just love that you left it open to the interpretation of the viewer. And I love the song that you chose is at the end, which was a nice nod.

David Chase 22:03
Well, you know, Steven Van Zandt, please Silvio, and, you know, was guitarist in any street van was in Florida when the last show aired. And he had booked an appearance the next morning on a talk show, radio talk show. And he All he did was defend and fend off all this criticism, people cursing at him. That's horrible. You know, motherfucker, this and we got robbed and all that stuff. And finally, he said, All right, well, what's your ending? Did you want to tell you to be killed? Oh, no, but you want to be here? Oh, what? Did you want to get away with it all? Oh, but I mean, well, what's your what's your great ending? Let me hear it. And most of them just, you know, some of them went away saying I see what you're saying. Now. I'm sure what they're really thinking was I'm not a professional writer. Don't ask me what I would have done. David. Jason had done what he was supposed to do. But nobody knew what that was.

Alex Ferrari 23:17
And honestly, as much as it's kind of, you know, divisive. You're absolutely right. Like, did you want to get away with it? Did you want him to die? Did you like there's no way to make everyone happy? There's just no way?

David Chase 23:29
No? Well, not many people have made everyone happy. You've seen the Wizard of Oz?

Alex Ferrari 23:36
No. But with the with the show with show endings in general are very difficult to pull off. I mean, did you when you were going into that last episode? What would I mean? I mean, I can only imagine the pressure that you were under, just because of the fans and everybody and it was the biggest show on HBO when all this stuff like how do you feel as a creator when you're ending something that you created?

David Chase 23:59
Well, the show was so popular. And it was such a you know, at that period of time, you'd read a news. People would always in newspaper Ruby's editorial, that's what Tony Soprano would have done. Or that guy behaves just like one of the sopranos. You kept hearing that all over the place. Sopranos Sopranos, Sopranos, it was that it was a phenomenon really not just a TV show. And I guess, like gave me a lot of balls.

Alex Ferrari 24:36
That's so big because of the success. It gave you the the wind underneath those wings.

David Chase 24:41
And most likely, had it not been a big success. It would have probably been more angering to a lot of people who knows what I would have done out of anger and disappointment. Just Kneel ism?

Alex Ferrari 25:01
Did When did you realize that? Or did you ever realize while you were making the show that it's kind of changed the game a bit, because after obviously years after all these other great shows with anti heroes like Breaking Bad and Mad Men and Dexter, which were some of the writers worked with you on your show? At what point did you kind of realize like, I think I might have changed the target directory of television? I mean, that's a fairly large statement to say. And maybe you don't want to say it. But many people have said it. Did you ever realize, like, maybe I've given other creators, I've opened the door for other creators to explore these kinds of characters.

David Chase 25:41
Well, that's a hard one. I guess I did feel that way. Good. This, other people can now do more interesting stuff. But what I also saw was like a lot of like, copying Sopranos I don't mean, like plagiarism, but just not doing something really, like the sopranos was way off the mark for network television. And I was hoping I guess that people would start to do things that were way off the mark. But they didn't really, you know, I was good shows. But I did feel that I felt glad that something had cracks and couldn't be replaced. I did, I did feel that way. But I remember saying at the time in print, which is also true, I don't take responsibility for any of those shows. But I don't take any blame either.

Alex Ferrari 26:44
That's a great, it's a great way of looking at it. Now, what made you want to go back to the world of the sopranos with the many saints of Newark? How did you Why did you? How did that come to be,

David Chase 26:57
you know, in 2012, coming off as, as front as over in 2007. And my dream was coming true, I was hot, and I was gonna be able to do a movie, or two. And I could do anything I wanted to do. I remember my agent telling me that back in 2004, you're a brand now you can do it, whatever you want to do, you'll be able to do. So we've reached the end of the sopranos, what I wanted to, and I wanted to do the story, semi kind of autobiographical about a rock'n'roll band in New Jersey that never makes it. And I wanted to do that. And I thought people would like it. And I got a chance to do it. Because Brad gray, who had been an executive producer with me on the show on Sopranos was now head of Paramount Studios. And he gave me the money to do that movie. I don't think any other studio would have done that. I don't think that movie was going to get made. And move No, but nobody went to see it. Nobody saw it. I mean, a few people did. And some people thought it was very good and liked it, but it was basically ignored. And there's a reason for it. Really, if you want to tell me the movie was shit, I wouldn't argue with you. But I also know that the movie had no support, or no marketing support, no advertising, because the guy was really in charge of that hated it. Anyway. So from that I did a couple of other projects. I wrote a couple of other things. One for HBO, which fell apart because of money budget. And then another another feature that Paramount bought, but they would only make it was an A list actress. And we got some actresses that were interested in doing it. But they weren't big enough. They couldn't open the movie, right? So I wasn't really doing anything. And then there was some illnesses in my family. And they had a warner brothers had been after me for 14 years, having coffee and talking to make a Sopranos movie. And he right around that he hit me again. And I thought you know, my friend, Larry Connor said, Yeah, you should do this. We should. You should work. Let's get back. And as well, this will get made you back.

Alex Ferrari 29:39
And that's it. And that's how it came back to me. And with the with the release of the film, how? Oh, hopefully it's going to be it's going to be released. I think, as of this recording, a Friday, Friday, Friday. What do you hope to happen? How do you hope the fans Receive the film.

David Chase 30:04
They love it. They love it. We had a premiere in New York. I've never been through anything like that in my life. The amount the amount of joy, excitement, laughter, suspense, it went over like, gang, like gangbusters. That's amazing. Unbelievable. I can't even express it. 2000 people in the Beacon Theater? Will we ever have another audience like that? No.

Alex Ferrari 30:39
That's amazing. Now, with all the success you've had over your career, what advice would you give a writer starting out in the business today?

David Chase 30:57
Well, you have to write. You can't talk about writing. You can't plan out stories that you don't write. You have to write as much as you can. And there is no simple no single way to quote unquote, make it just any opportunity that comes along. That brings you closer to the business say yes. Even if it's not what you're interested in doing. Just say yes. You will learn something from it, and you'll be one millimeter closer. I even use that phrase to business, you'll be even closer to a lot of people okay to business. You'll be one millimeter closer to your dream of being an artist. I mean, obviously, if you have to clean toilets, you're gonna say no, but Well, I don't know about that.

Alex Ferrari 32:02
Well, I mean, if you're cleaning toilets in the mailroom, it's like the mailroom is a perfect example like that.

David Chase 32:08
Yeah, say yes. Because you won't be cleaning toilets for long you're gonna be promoted in the mailroom. And then from the mailroom you go on, but you know, that's really attract to being an agent or a producer. Sure, of course. Oh, mailroom sorry. Yeah, what?

Alex Ferrari 32:34
The game has changed so much the game has changed so much over the years,

David Chase 32:37
the game changed so much. And well, we will go into that. I wish I could say something that

Alex Ferrari 32:52
Well, let me ask you this

David Chase 32:54
bold, but I guess it just be bold, on the page, and in the road, or on the street.

Alex Ferrari 33:05
Great advice. Not when you're about to sit down to write something like when you set when you sat down to write the the many saints in New York? And how do you be? How do you do outline? What is your process? When you're writing? Do you outline? Do you start with characters when you're starting a new new project? Or are you starting with plot? How do you approach the craft?

David Chase 33:28
I've done it both ways where we outline outline the whole movie or TV, well, each one of Sopranos episodes was complete outline, that you will see the outlines, you would say, this is really like naked, there's hardly anything here. That's true. It was just the scenes in order. It was the writers job to bring that to life. I've done it that way. And I've done it where you just start writing. And I think probably most of the great writers just start writing.

Alex Ferrari 34:04
Because they've already have a lot of the stuff that you have to work on in regards to structure and, and subplots. It's what it's

David Chase 34:13
about is they, they don't really know what they've got. But you only find out what you're doing. from writing.

Alex Ferrari 34:24
From just going down the path, you only find

David Chase 34:26
out Well, really into reality, you really only find out what your movie is, or your TV show is after you've edited it. Because all those pieces that make up the show can be rearranged to it the only difference where the emphasis is completely changed. And what you thought it was about isn't what it was about. Because two actors who sparked off each other. We're not around when you wrote it. But now you see all of that relation. That's when you Yeah, and I know, that's what's so great about it. They call it a plastic medium. And that's what it is. But they can be moved on.

Alex Ferrari 35:09
Yeah. And it's like, As the old saying goes, you write you, you write the story three times, once you write it, once you shoot it, once you edit it, each one is a different, different version, or draft of the story.

David Chase 35:22
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, exactly. Yes. All right. When you

Alex Ferrari 35:27
write, do the characters talk to you? Do they? Do they talk and you dictate? Or do you like, because I've heard that so many times from writers where they're like, I've just said, I'm just a dictator, I just do this. But is that the way it works for you? Or do you creating the dialogue for them? Feeling it?

David Chase 35:45
I've had it happen a couple of times, where there was this transcendent experience, where I felt that some power was working through me. But that doesn't happen all the time at all. But do it to the characters speak to me, like say, hey, David, do this and David do that? I don't

Alex Ferrari 36:08
know. Like the dialogue like, you know, two people sitting in a room and you're just like, you're sitting in a room,

David Chase 36:13
I pictured it. I picture a conversation we do. And Tony and Carmela and I

Alex Ferrari 36:25
just talk,

David Chase 36:27
say,

Alex Ferrari 36:28
you touched on something there real quick, when you said you had a transcendent moment. And I mean, I've had it and so many other writers and creators have it it's almost the zone, or when you feel like something is you're channeling something. You're like, when you're writing, and you're like, Who wrote this? This is this, this, I don't know who wrote this, and let's just spurts out of you, without you actually thinking. It's worthwhile. It's in those moments when you can, when you can, when you can literally, I don't know, tap into tap into that thing that brings in the creativity, where it's just flowing through you. And you're just a conduit.

David Chase 37:06
I think it's the closest we come to being a musician.

Alex Ferrari 37:11
Yeah, that's right.

David Chase 37:14
Yeah. And being a musician. I mean, I have always wanted to be one and I have great. What do you call? Jealousy, especially to be one of four musicians and you are playing together? One going off the other and it's coming out of your head. There's no pre that those moments when you're writing are the closest we come to that?

Alex Ferrari 37:41
Yeah, like I can only imagine Lennon and McCartney. I've seen some of those, those sessions when they were just like writing stuff. And just like, like, all of a sudden, hey, Jude just showed up.

David Chase 37:50
Like, right? No, I mean, I mean, those sessions where you're writing big, um, something's working through me or when you're finished, you go, woof. I was always coming through. I mean, a musician playing. It's the most like playing music. Got it. But like you're it's all you're you're feeling all of it. You're not thinking it.

Alex Ferrari 38:17
Now, is there anything you've learned from your biggest mistake? Or biggest failure in your career? Something that a lesson that you learned from one of those?

David Chase 38:49
Don't take the money?

Alex Ferrari 38:52
It's a great. Don't, don't do it for the money. Don't do it for the money. Alright, and working? And where can people watch the new movie?

David Chase 39:06
Their movie theaters, movie theaters? That's it's also going to be on I shouldn't even say it's also going to be on HBO max on the same day, October 1. Okay. As it opens, the mutated it's going to be on on TV. I'm disgusted by that. But

Alex Ferrari 39:24
I would say everybody goes see that in the theaters without question.

David Chase 39:27
It's really good. And you didn't do that.

Alex Ferrari 39:30
I couldn't good. I couldn't. But But David, thank you so much for your time. It has been an absolute pleasure talking to you. And thank you for all the work you've done. And everything you've done for television and for storytelling in general. So thank you, my friend.

David Chase 39:45
Thank you. And those are good questions.

Alex Ferrari 39:47
Thank you, my friend.

David Chase 39:48
Okay. Bye bye.