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BPS 200: How to Cast a Bankable Star with Thomas Jane

Thomas Jane is a prolific actor, director, and producer, with extensive credits including the series The Expanse and Hung, and the features The Punisher, 61, The Predator and Boogie Nights. Jane recently starred in in the hit thriller The Vanished, and his film Run Hide Fight world premiered at the 77th Venice Film Festival. Jane will next be seen in the anticipated drama series Troppo for IMDb TV/Amazon, based on the bestselling novel by Candice Fox, which he is also executive producing via his Renegade Entertainment banner.

Jane founded the production company Renegade Entertainment with Courtney Lauren Penn in 2019. Since its inception, Renegade has produced the soon to be released features Murder at Yellowstone City, starring Jane, Gabriel Byrne, and Isaiah Mustafa; Dig, starring Jane, Emile Hirsch, and Harlow Jane; The Last Son, starring Jane, Sam Worthington and Colson Baker; and Slayers, starring Jane, Abigail Breslin and Malin Akerman.

Among their projects in development, Renegade is producing a comic series The Lycan, continuing the Malone franchise with a sequel to the cult fan favorite Give ‘em Hell Malone, and producing an adaptation of Stephen King’s From a Buick 8, marking the fourth collaboration between Jane and King, following 1922, Dreamcatcher, and The Mist.

Jane is a writer and director, directing one of the first-ever natively shot films in 3D, the noir thriller Dark Country, as well as the celebrated season 5 episode “Mother” of his hit series The Expanse. He founded the graphic novel company RAW Studios in 2011.

Thomas recently opened up his new production company Renegade Entertainment.

Thomas Jane and Courtney Lauren Penn’s Renegade Entertainment has been prolific since launching late in 2019. Since the start of the pandemic the company has completed production on Murder at Emigrant Gulch, starring Gabriel Byrne, Isaiah Mustafa, and Thomas Jane; Dig, starring Thomas Jane, Harlow Jane, and Emile Hirsch; The Last Son, starring Thomas Jane, Sam Worthington, and Colson Baker; and Slayers, starring Abigail Breslin, Thomas Jane, and Malin Akerman.

Renegade is in production on their first scripted series Troppo, based on the bestselling novel by Candice Fox. Among their projects in development, Renegade is producing a comic series The Lycan, continuing the Malone franchise with a sequel to the cult fan favorite Give ‘em Hell Malone, and producing an adaptation of Stephen King’s From a Buick 8, marking the fourth collaboration between Jane and King, following 1922The Mist, and Dreamcatcher.

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Thomas Jane 0:00
I started on my first experience on set was as an extra. In Oh, Renzo llamas movie, we're talking about like the 1980s 80, something like that.

Alex Ferrari 0:14
This episode is brought to you by Indie Film Hustle TV, the world's first streaming service dedicated to filmmakers, screenwriters, and content creators. Learn more at indiefilmhustle.tv. I'd like to welcome to the show, Thomas Jane how you doin Thomas?

Thomas Jane 0:29
Hey, good to see ya!

Alex Ferrari 0:33
Good to see you too, my friend. I'm excited to have you on the show. I've been a fan of yours, my friend from back back back back in the day. So I appreciate you coming on. And I'm excited to talk to you about your new projects and the new stuff that you're doing in the world. But before we get into all of that, yeah, why in God's green earth? Did you want to get into this insane business?

Thomas Jane 0:53
Wow, there's a question. Why did I want to? I think it's a kind of businesses sort of like, you don't really have a choice. I mean, I think if you could do anything else, coming up as a young actor, anybody in my acting classes that had a plan B, you know, whether it was managing a restaurant or going to night school to be an accountant, that's what they ended up doing. So one of the first things I learned was no plan B. Gosh,

Alex Ferrari 1:25
You burn that you burn the ships, you burn the ships at the shore.

Thomas Jane 1:29
You got to I mean, otherwise, you're gonna there are nights when you lay awake in bed at night, staring at the ceiling and going, Why the hell am I here? And what the hell did I think I was doing? There are those nights, you know? And if you've got that, you know, escape hatch sooner or later, you're gonna get weak and take it. So yes, you gotta burn the ships, man. There's no way out.

Alex Ferrari 1:52
So let me ask you a question that I mean, look, as an actor, I'm always fascinated by, you know, when I'm when I'm directing, and I'm doing a casting, I try to be as kind as I can to actors, but they get rejected 99% of the time, especially when they're coming up, if not 100% of the time when they're coming up. How did you deal with rejection coming up? And yeah, how did you just keep going and grinding every day? When there there was nothing on the horizon that said, if you stick with this, you're gonna make it.

Thomas Jane 2:22
Yeah, you know, how did you do? There's only one way to do it. And that's to love what you do. I started a little theatre company here in Los Angeles and the bad part of town on heliotrope and Melrose, we rent it out in literally a store space. And we called it the space and we built our own, we got our, our seats from some abandoned theater, and we built the tears and I think it sat 49 people. And we built our stage and put up some lights. And we started directing, acting, writing, even I did a one act play there that I wrote. And you get a group of guys together that just really love it, you know, and we of course, we're all doing it for free, you know, tickets were negligible, if not free, you know, and you get all your buddies to come on one weekend, and the second weekend, there'll be three people and one of them will be asleep. And the audience sorry. I've had I've had I've been there. Yeah. But if you love what you do, and it's like, Well, where can I do this and even if I have to invent my own place to do it, and that leads to friends and some other guys got to another theater and really that's I did a lot of theater in LA and you don't want to don't think of La as a theater town. But there's, there's a little bit going on. There's a great theater called the Odyssey down in Laguna Beach. That's a union theater, I did a I did a play there with Sherry North who used to be called the Smart Marilyn Monroe back in the day. And and I just kept I kept that up. I haven't done theater in a long time because I've been busy doing this but I'd love to get back to it. So the question and the answer is love what you do and if you love what you do, you'll find a way to do it and it doesn't really matter. And you know, I ultimately said to myself, you know, it doesn't really matter if I never get paid for this. I love to do it. You got to I love what it does and I love to watch it you know I love to go to theI I became an usher at a theater in Century City just so I could go and watch the play every night you know and watch the different changes and how it was the same but different every night. I was a bad Usher because I was kept watching the play instead of showing people to their seats, but

Alex Ferrari 4:47
Other than ushering so so you when you get your first gig as a paid actor on a movie or a TV show, what was that like just going on the set for the first time I'm knowing that you're gonna remember some lines and even it could have been just one line, but just be just being there. What was that like for you and and did you throw up? Did you have impostor syndrome, all that kind of stuff.

Thomas Jane 5:13
All of the above it's a new experience for sure. But you know, I started on my first experience on set was as an extra. In a Lorenzo Lamas movie, we're talking about like the 1980s. It was late 80s, something like that. And I played soccer in the background of some scene that they were shooting, right? And watch watching Lorenzo Lamas do is he had this towel and he would puff up his biceps before each shot, you know, and I was like, well, that's interesting. And just watching the crew watching the people is all new to me, I had no idea what anybody's job was, but they sure were busy. And then at the end of the day, you line up to the, at the, at this makeshift table where they would hand out your paycheck. And when I when I got over there, they packed up and gone. So you know, I was I was only supposed to get like 40 bucks or something. But that 40 bucks meant a lot that pissed me off. So I like doing productions where people actually pay the people that work and respect the different jobs that people do. You know, then I started getting I guess, maybe it was Buffy the Vampire Slayer, where it was like a real movie. And I and I had a few I had a scene with Luke, Luke Perry. And I played this garage mechanic and he's kind of crazy. And that was really my first experience of getting into the makeup trailer. And you being thrown through the works and the process and the onset and doing your scene and the coverage and all that and yeah, it's it's exhilarating and terrifying and fascinating and everything you'd think it would be I remember, Luke was in his makeup trailer and he was talking to his agents on the phone. And they were arguing because he had this what do you call it jazz button. He had this little

Alex Ferrari 7:21
Flavor savor the flavor savor

Thomas Jane 7:24
That it was clean shaven except for that. And he was who was arguing with the producers and the agent about whether or not he was going to keep it or shave it off the horse. They wanted him to shave it off. He ended up keeping.

Alex Ferrari 7:38
Yeah, it was funny because I because I knew the I knew Fran the director of Buffy years ago, I hung out with her and she would tell me stories about what it was like being on that set and running. And I think it was their second movie or something like that. And it was a studio movie and people Oh, and Luke Perry was like, at the height of his power. I think he was the star of that, you know, even though was Christie's you know, she was the Buffy but I mean, people don't understand. Yeah, you mean I lived in Orlando. I mean, actually, I lived in Florida. When that mall that he went to go visit there was a riot. And like people oh my gosh, yeah, I was I drove by that that they were like what's going on over here? I was living in Fort Lauderdale at the time. And it was, so people didn't understand how big of a start it was back then. So that must have been a hell of an experience just being around that.

Thomas Jane 8:29
I met a lot of people on that set, David Arquette. Paul Reubens go friends today.

Alex Ferrari 8:38
It was a great day. It was a great group of people that film. Now speaking of some films, I mean, you've worked with a couple of good directors just a couple over the years. You've had the pleasure of working with like Terrence Malick and BT Anderson and John Woo. Did you learn any lessons from a filmmaking that you brought into your directing into your producing years later? Or just as an actor? What are some lessons you learned from some of these great filmmakers?

Thomas Jane 9:03
Always, you know, they all got different styles, I learned that I learned that there is no one one way to do it. And I always paying attention because I do love directing and producing and, and I've always been headed in that direction. Once you get a little experience, you know, I feel like I have something to offer and avoid some of the some of the pitfalls that I've fallen into in the past and I've seen people fall into it's really nice. It's neat to it's an oral tradition, you know that there is no you can read some books, but there's only one way to really learn how how it happens and that is to do it and you're in your learning hand to mouth you're learning sorry, mouth to ear. It's people teaching other people how to do it and that process for acting has gone back 2000 years for filming. Thinking it's gone back 100 years more. But you've got an it's technicians and artists teaching other technicians and artists. And so I love that. That tradition, you know, there's no other way to learn it except for to be there and to learn it from people who learned it from somebody else. From as far as those guys, you know, I love Terry Malik's style, it was very open, he was very open to the environment and to what the actors were doing and, and, and he would be able to shift he was fluid. He was extremely fluid in the way that he what he wanted, he would change his mind. I was I had this scene on a hill. It was one scene and he'd asked me to be in the movies three times before and I was busy doing other stuff. And they finally I was free. And so I flew all the way over there. I flew with Mickey work. And we had to take like three planes. He kept getting lost. And I felt like I was kind of babysit. He hate he hates flying, apparently. So I was kind of taking care of Mickey and then I went over and I got to watch Mickey. So of course, I wasn't working. But Mickey was doing his stuff one day, and I showed up and all day long. Watch Terry. And Mickey and Mickey was doing improv at improv all day beautiful monologue. Gorgeous work didn't end up in the film. But my scene did. And I tell you, we started at dawn. And we shot the scene. And then throughout the day, there'd be cloud cover, and he'd shoot the scene. And then there'd be sunshine. And he'd shoot the scene. I knew just enough at that time to be able to ask him like, how are you going to cut this together? You've you were shooting in the sun. We're shooting in the shade. You've got us at dawn, how is any of this going to match and he said, You know what? I'm shooting I'm covering the scene so that I can take all of the cloud cover shots and put the scene together. And I'll have or I can take all the sunset sun shine sunshine shots and put those together. Or I can have a shot at dusk and dawn, I can have a magic hour scene because that way I can put the scene anywhere in the film that I like because it's a kind of a standalone, standalone little scene, so it's not really connected to any other part of the story. I thought that okay, that's kind of brilliant. And then halfway through the day, he disappeared for like three hours. It him and John told just ran off. And we're so he's sitting around for three hours. He finally comes strolling back, I go, Hey, where are you been? And, and he said, Oh, I saw some beautiful butterflies. Over there. And we were we were cats. We were filming them. Anyway, we're we're we?

Alex Ferrari 13:04
He literally just went off to chase some some butterflies. Oh my god. That's literally literally literally, it's it's

Thomas Jane 13:15
Yeah, I've learned a lot from different folks. John Liu John Liu. He actually he had a funny way because this was a movie he was shooting in America yet American Crew he was out of his element. He wasn't with his normal guys doing a John Woo movie, he was doing a Hollywood movie hired because he's John Woo. John, who was very smart, he speaks fluent English. But during the show, he pretended that he didn't speak any English. So when the producers are trying to talk to him, he'd be like, Ah, what's his what are they say? And then you have this interpreter, and the interpreter would be trying to explain. And so he had this out, he built this out for himself where he just did whatever the hell he wanted. And if the producers got upset, be like, sorry, he was just a misunderstanding. John doesn't speak English. You know, we're doing the best we can. And I thought, That's pretty clever.

Alex Ferrari 14:12
Did you know but did you know on set that he didn't speak English?

Thomas Jane 14:16
I know, I watched him and I watched all the interpreting and all this stuff and and he had his little Chinese group around him that were very protective. And, and it was I was able to, to, somebody told me, somebody told me at the end of the day, I was made friends with somebody who's on John's team, and he told me the straight the real deal.

Alex Ferrari 14:39
Oh my god. That's that's, that's because John I mean, watching to him. It's a famous face off if I'm not mistaken. Correct. So yeah, a classic John Woo film, and then need to make a sequel of it as soon as humanly possible. There was a lot of I mean, he's just one of those directors. You know, he he rewrote how action movies were made after he came.

Thomas Jane 14:59
That's right we sure did everything is everything's never the same after the bullet ballet.

Alex Ferrari 15:06
Oh my god after hard boiled and hard boiled and the other one he did the killer. Just

Thomas Jane 15:13
The killer.

Alex Ferrari 15:14
Oh, he was

Thomas Jane 15:18
What a face. You know, we didn't have to do anything. It was just one of those faces. It's like to share a Mfume, you know, you just get fascinated by this guy. I'm watching. I've watched all the current salad stuff, but it turns out, buffoon. I did more movies with this Japanese director called a Naki. I think it's called an Aki. And he did more movies with this guy in Japan. But those movies never really made it outside of Japan. They were very Japanese. And his work with this, this guy is just as good as Curacao in a different in a different way. But have you seen the samurai trilogy?

Alex Ferrari 16:04
Yeah, I remember the samurai trilogy. Yeah. Oh, it's amazing.

Thomas Jane 16:07
I just watched that recently. I hadn't seen it. That is it's like a six hour movie divided up into three films. It's on criterion is Criterion Collection. Yeah. And you've got it's the story of Musashi, who was this the most famous samurai. And it's sort of his journey from being this ruffian this kid is Wild Child kid to being a real samurai. And then his journey along the way, and it took six hours to tell the story it, it's now up in my top five, I love the way he shouldn't so simply done. And I love those older films where they just hang on a shot, you know, it's they're not doing all these cuts. And when they cut into a close up, it's me, it means something, you're like, Whoa, they would let a whole scene play out just in just in the Master, you know, and the actors would be choreograph. So they'd be moving, I love that kind of work. And I'm just hoping that, that I can do some of that kind of work and that people don't get bored. You know, I think that we need, I think it's desensitizing all of the all of the television cutting that's sort of permeating our world right now, and has been for years and years. But now it's now it's been sort of sunk into, it's like, everything has become it. You know, there used to be a difference between television editing and movie editing. Now, yeah. And now you've got pretty much everything's TV. And I think somebody maybe me is going to is going to turn that on its head again, where we just let it play. Because the actors are damn interesting. The story is interesting, I can see everybody, I see what they're doing. You know, if you got a wide shot or a medium shot, I see all the expressions on your face, I pick it up. And I think that we need as an audience. And as we move through time and society, we need things to kind of wake us up a little bit, you know, you have to break out of the pattern a little bit in order to wake people back up to the power and the glory of cinematic storytelling.

Alex Ferrari 18:14
Now, when you're working as an actor, what do you look for in a director? You know, how do you like to be directed? What is that? Those elements that when you're thinking about doing a project, you're like, This is not going to work out because we're not going to mix here. I really am looking, this guy doesn't know what he's doing. This girl doesn't know what she's like. You could say, I'm assuming at this point, you can sense this as a third, as a sixth sense. Now, it's a what is that thing that you're looking for in a director?

Thomas Jane 18:39
Oh, you know, I can take care of myself now. So I used to want a director who could really who was going to get the best performance out of me, I found that those are few and far between. It's just sort of becoming a lost art. We're directors really understand there's a few of them out there. But as far as working with actors, I got that covered. I can take care of my performance. What I'm what I'm hoping and looking for is can you take care of your directing. So I like if somebody comes to me with storyboards and says, This is how I'm going to shoot this, this is my vision for this thing. And if they don't say anything, you're like, well, you're just going to show up and make it up on the day, which unfortunately, I have, you know, work we've all worked with. And so I'll figure it out. And by the way that can work. That's

Alex Ferrari 19:32
If Ridley Scott shows up and says, Hey, we're just going to figure it out on the day.

Thomas Jane 19:36
Right, you trust that but and then that can work but I like an I like a director to be prepared and to have a point of view and to involve me in that story. You know, how are we going to tell that? How can I help you tell the story that you want to tell? So but I'm being folded into a grander picture. not just showing up and you know, we'll make it up on the day, it's it's what you're looking for is a vision, you're also looking for a sensitivity to the acting, you know, you don't have to direct it most some of the best directors I've worked with don't say anything, they don't direct you. Their direction is extremely minimal, you know, things like a little bit faster can mean the world in a scene. Generally, directors want to say as little as possible to their actors, but to know that you're being taken care of means to be know that you're being watched to your, they're paying attention, they're intently focused on what you're doing, and they see everything. So a director comes up after a taking goes, that pause you took before you picked up that that fork. Fantastic, and then walk away. So I'm being able to piece together what's working and what's not working with little comments like that.

Alex Ferrari 21:07
Yeah, cuz when you get it because I've, I've been on set with very insecure directors and insecure directors are yellers. And, and they're trying to, you know, boast their ego and all this kind of stuff. And I've always found that the quieter the director, the more secure they are, it's the quiet ones that you really, yeah, they just with one word faster, more intense than those couple words. That's

Thomas Jane 21:31
If a good director has done his job. By the time you get to set the movies already made. You're just executing the motions and all the all the crew knows what to do. Everybody, there's little adjustments to make throughout the day. But they've there's been production meetings that have been very thorough, and everybody knows exactly what's required on that day. And what the scene is about, you know, like Lumet said, is like, I sit everybody down, and we all have to be making the same movie, you know, and that's the conversation during production meetings is what kind of movie are we making, because you can make any kind of movie you can take a script and turn it into, you can take the darkest film and turn it into a comedy or vice versa. It's the page is really is a skeleton, you know, no matter how good the script is, you're looking at a skeleton that can be interpreted and built in many different ways. So if you've got a group of 20, artists, you know, they're all going to kind of have their own proclivities and ideas and stuff. And if you just let them run, you're gonna get 20 You're gonna get a Frankenstein movie. But if you're able to coalesce and everybody's making the same film, and then when they come to set, and they have a question, you can remind them and say, No, that's not the movie. And so you're now you're just nudging people onto the path, as opposed to just, you know, running well, there's 20 different ways we could get to town, you know?

Alex Ferrari 23:04
Exactly now you know, being an actor of your caliber, and, and being in the business for as long as you have, I'm imagining that you get pitched projects all the time, from filmmakers from producers, who want you to be a part of their show, or be part of their movie or something along those lines, knock on wood, knock on wood that keeps happening, right, and you deserve it. Because you are you've have you've built a hell of a career for yourself and done some amazing work. But, you know, being in the indie space, and you know, now you're you're working a lot independent projects as well, that are, you know, outside of the $300 million studio system, though you do those every once in a while as well.

Thomas Jane 23:42
I really enjoy the indie space, I really do.

Alex Ferrari 23:45
What is what is the proper way that someone could put a package together to entice an actor of your caliber? Like what elements should be in place? What elements shouldn't be placed? Don't do this, do this. Because there's so many, like, I consult constantly independent filmmakers, and they'll just do the, you know, ignorant things that they just don't understand. Like, you can't reach out to Thomas without some money in place. That's step one. I don't care how beautiful the script might be. His agents are not going to even look at it unless there's verifiable funds, things like that. So So yeah, what are some of the things, some tips you can give some filmmakers out there?

Thomas Jane 24:27
Well, it all starts with the script. You know, obviously, you've got to have a script that's going to be attractive. For and there's a number of different ways. There's an endless amount of ways you can pull that off, but you got to have a script that's attractive. You got to have a script that's meaningful to actors. The most important things like you said is that the film is set up or there's financing that is ready to be in place. You know, most financiers will say, Okay, I'll commit to making this movie if you bring me Thomas Jane. So you know, so you can you there's a meeting in the middle where you know, so you don't. So you don't necessarily have to be fully financed, but you have to have the means to be financed, you have to so it really is a director, you're always you're starting with the money, you know, you need your producers and you need your money. And in that way, you can start to build your package, you know, I think everything's becoming a package these days, you it's, it's about who you're pairing with. So when you're crafting your script, make sure you have more than one good part. Because the guys who are able to get a whole movie financed, they've got old scripts lined up around the block of waiting, waiting for them, they can pick any movie they want, you know, and so those, that's, that's not a good route, I mean, you're going to get in line, it's going to be three blocks down that way. But if you put a pack, if you have a film and a script, you put it together, and you've got a number of different neat parts. And they could be just a two day part, you know, a really fun part that's, that works for two days, those work really well. And that's how you're, you're able to attract an actor I won't read, it's there's just too much stuff, you know, I just don't have time to read stuff that doesn't have any financing, or nobody's looked at it. However, as a producer, now we've started a company called Renegade, and troppo, our TV show for Amazon is our first as our first projects really exciting. And that we do read scripts, you know, we read script, we're looking for great scripts, so that we can then take it out to the financiers and, and start to put that together. So that's sort of your first stop, the first step would be Renegade.

Alex Ferrari 27:01
Obviously send it into my production company, which is Yeah, which is, which is, which is very, very cool of you to like, you've launched this new company, and you're doing some really cool projects with the, with the company as well. And you're taking kind of more control as an actor over the work that you're doing. So you're not just you know, gun for hire, you're actually trying to put this out there.

Thomas Jane 27:22
And I'm also and also not everything that we do have to be starring Thomas Jane, you know, so it's not a Thomas Jane production company. It's a real production company, we started in 2019. So we're just getting started, because then the pandemic hit right away, right, one of the first things we grabbed was Stephen King's from a Buick eight. I know, I saw that really exciting. So many people have tried to crack it as a film, John Carpenter can't remember the other names, but a lot of people have come on and tried to nail that down as a, but it's really it's too long form, it needs to be a mini series. So we've got some really good partners in place to create, turn that into a mini series. And that's one of the things we've gotten then in the trapo book came across our desks, that was one of the first things that come around. So looking for books, looking for projects, looking for material, that's the fun, that's really fun, you know, like, oh, this could be and then shepherding that material in a way that so that it doesn't get compromised or damaged along the way, which, which is probably the toughest job in Hollywood, you know, besides writing, writing, the script is the toughest job. second toughest job is being able to take a decent piece of material and shepherded from A to Z, without completely altering it so that it's unrecognizable. Or, you know, twisting it in a way that it turns into something that is not what you intended, or what you fell in love with at the beginning.

Alex Ferrari 28:53
But as you as a you know, someone who's shepherding a project like that You are the protector of the material. That's right, You are the protector of the material, and you have to be a strong guardian. And a lot of times filmmakers get you know, producers will come in or the studio will come in or someone else will start pushing it around to the point where you've lost control of it. And now you've you've not You're not protecting it anymore.

Thomas Jane 29:18
There's so many different ways that things can go off the rails and you need to make decisions that do change things a bit, especially if you're going from a book to the screen From Page to Screen, you need to make adjustments you know, and the adjustments that you make. You have to always keep in the forefront of your mind, does this serve the core of this project? Or is it compromising it in some way? And then there will be compromises, you know,

Alex Ferrari 29:48
Every day, every day of every second there's a compromise. The whole the whole filmmaking process is compromised.

Thomas Jane 29:54
It's making the right compromises and then it's it's making compromises that In turn, protect the thing that you love the best about it, right? So identifying that and being able to, when you make those compromises, make sure that they're still serving what you love about the project in some way, you know, so you can you can, there are certain things that you can lose, and still not compromise your project, there are certain things that you can change, and you've ruined it.

Alex Ferrari 30:27
Oh, one little one little thing, you lifting that fork a little too fast, the whole gone off the rails? Well,

Thomas Jane 30:33
I mean, the scene might go off the rails?

Alex Ferrari 30:36
No, no, but you know, it's like a butterfly flaps its wings. And there's, there's, you know, an avalanche somewhere.

Thomas Jane 30:42
The thing we're getting as a reverberation and you know, comes from experience, knowing what kind of compromises you can make and how and what and what and what you're protecting what you can't compromise.

Alex Ferrari 30:55
Now, as far as that package you were talking about before, I mean, verifiable funds, or at least being able to verify those funds. How important to you is the creative packaging team, like the producers involved? The director, if it's a first time director, you know, because I know a lot of a lot of actors who just won't work with first time directors, because they just don't have the time to to take that risk on their either their career or their time or any of that stuff. So how born? How important is that team? And also, I mean, obviously, your co stars, who you're going to be working with, and so on. And I'm asking these questions, because a lot of filmmakers out there listening, don't understand the realities of what it really takes to get a film off the ground, especially in today's world. So I want to, I wanted to come straight from the horse's mouth, if you will,

Thomas Jane 31:36
Well, if you're a first time director, I would start small, find a project that you can make that your calling card, you know, don't go try to get a bunch of big actors in your first time move, it's getting rarer and rarer. And for a reason, you're right, we don't have the time, and we just don't want to take the risk. I mean, the chances are, your movie is gonna be pretty flawed, if you're a first time director, you know. And that's, that's just the way it is. But if you're making a film, that you can't now it's so easy, you know, if that you can put together that that's your calling card. And if somebody shows me that and goes, Hey, check this out. Hopefully not a short but a short, you can't, you can still get an idea of of, of what a director is capable of through a short. And you know, there might be some tight if I had a really fantastic script, and I had a great short, and the part was great, then then I might take that risk. But if one of those three isn't there, I just don't have time, you know, starting small as a director, you know, so that you can create something that's exciting. And for you, and then you know, and then the producers will be able to go around town and say, Look, man, this guy made this in six days, imagine what it'll do if we give him 18. Know, and that becomes a selling point. But as far as what, what would you like to know?

Alex Ferrari 33:09
So I mean, what you just said like those three elements like great script, great part, great short film is an anomaly. It happens once in a blue moon. And then also there's personalities aspects, the the almost the, like, can I sit in a room with this? Or can I be on a set with this person? For 1218 hours, sometimes depending on the project? Yeah. And yeah, those are those elements as well about what entices an actor like yourself to be part of a project. And again, I'm just trying to really hammer home to filmmakers who are listening that this is this is the reality, because I hear it every day, Thomas every day, I hear filmmakers who like hey, you know who's going to be perfect for this? It's going to be Thomas J. And I'm like, okay, great. What do you have? And they're like, I've got this script. What have you done? Nothing? What do you have any money? Almost, I almost money's gonna drop a minute. Do you have verifiable funds? Do you have a qualified investor now? Okay, do you have an agent? I don't have an agent yet. Do you have a lawyer? We're looking for one. But you see, but this is the delusion of a lot of independent filmmakers because they're ignorant to the process. And that's what my show is all about is trying to really guide them through the process so I can at least cut a couple years off of their their learning lessons. And that wastes two years trying to get to your agent trying to get a script to your agent and then getting angry. I'm like, oh, Hollywood doesn't understand my genius.

Thomas Jane 34:32
That script you want to put that in a drawer and then you want to make the one that's going to get you in the door? You know? We really is you know it's Show and Tell around here there's you know, people talk bullshit all day long and peep some people are really good at it. Some people may have been career at it.

Alex Ferrari 34:51
I've met the same people sir.

Thomas Jane 34:53
So but if you you know if you can do it, if you can do it once you can do it again. You you can make it, you start with a financing, you know, start with. And that I guess, you know, in a lot of ways, the producing part really is tough. Because finding somebody who can recognize what a good script is, or recognize what a talented director is, and I think that's one of the frustrations of people starting out, it's, you know, it's like, if only they knew how, how brilliant I am. It's show us show us, show us, you know, it's show and tell. And, and that can be a short film. But you know, if you could, if you can put together an, you know, in in what's great about its doing something like that is, it could be a half hour long, it could be 45 minutes long, an hour, an hour and five minutes, you know, you're not beholden to any kind of rules, except for making something really damn interesting. Now holding somebody's attention on a really low budget thing for an hour is miraculous. No, no, there's no question for half an hour, it's miraculous, if you're gonna make sure keep it under 10 minutes, you know, and those rules are made to be broken. But, you know, if I see a short, you know, and it's 45 minutes long, Oh, watch some of it. But the chances are really small that I'll get through the whole thing.

Alex Ferrari 36:22
Right, exactly. Because 45 minutes short, I'm like, Just keep going.

Thomas Jane 36:26
But you need a combination. You can't just make a brilliant short film and show it you got to have you need that combination, you know, and yeah, and I think building your team early is good, you know, find ways to hook up with really talented writers young, because the young writers when I was coming up, I was fortunate enough to find some really talented writers who are now making livings a screenplay, but we were living hand to mouth. But we love what we did. So we would get together at night after our day jobs, and we'd spend three, four hours writing together, you know, developing stuff, and that really, those scripts, if I look back at them today, they're not very good. But they're, but there's moments of brilliance in them, you know, and that, and that's how you kind of cut your teeth. That's how I cut my teeth was, and I did short films, I gotta tell you, I wish somebody would dig these up, I did film for UCLA, USC, I would go and I would audition and you know, these graduate filmmakers, directors, they needed to make their thesis film. And it was usually a short. And I did like four or five of them. And had a great time, you know, and met met all kinds of wonderful people. And, and but really, you know, we were cutting our teeth. So I did short films I wrote with young writers who they're not expecting to get paid. You know, they, they're, they love it to their learning to they want to do it. And then, you know, if you're lucky enough, you'll find you'll meet some really interesting young producers. And then making those connections is great, but cutting your teeth on an actual project that everybody's just doing because they need to do it, I think is the most important thing.

Alex Ferrari 38:19
Yeah, you've got to you actually, it's one of those. This is an art form that needs to be up. If you've got a paint paint, you want to play music, play music, you can't just talk about it so much or intellectualize it into

Thomas Jane 38:33
Its mouth to its mouth to ear, man. That's the only way to do it.

Alex Ferrari 38:37
Yeah, until you're on set and trapnell is being tossed at you literally and figuratively, sometimes. Yeah, you learn you'll learn on the first day when you're directing and you're losing the light. And you've got three pages left. And

Thomas Jane 38:54
Nobody's coming back tomorrow.

Alex Ferrari 38:57
And we lose the location at six. That's right. That's the stuff they don't teach you at school

Thomas Jane 39:03
Thinking on your feet.

Alex Ferrari 39:04
Then you're like, Okay, how can I cover this? In the next 15 minutes? I'm not going to lose the scene. And I can say.

Thomas Jane 39:09
Or how can how can I rewrite it so that I get the grasp of what's being done. And then a lot of times, that'll turn out better than your three minutes seeing?

Alex Ferrari 39:17
Right! I always love I always love going on set, especially with when I'm working with the first ad the first time I come in, and I'll have a shot list of like 100 shots for the day. And he's like, you know, we're not going to get them like absolutely no, we're not gonna get to this, but I want them there. In case things are going well. Or maybe I can switch here, but I'd like to have that there. So just in that experience, because because the first time I went on set with that list, I expected to do all of it

Thomas Jane 39:41
And knew Oh, yeah, you're like, Well, why not?

Alex Ferrari 39:44
Why can't we do 200 setups and eight so this behind the scenes documentary of Tarantino, I think it worked out fine.

Thomas Jane 39:58
Are your guys just starting out, Are they young professionals and they're trying to the ground there, it's a bunch of different people?

Alex Ferrari 40:06
It's from the it's from the newbie who doesn't understand that the things we've discussed all the way to the experienced directors who have worked and worked on projects been in the business for 1520 years, but still might not understand the producing side of things and how to package how to package a project.

Thomas Jane 40:24
If there's like a secret language to producing even I am still learning about the ins and outs of this secret language that they've got, you know, obviously, they've got little lists, you know, and if the actors aren't on the list, and they're every actor is worth a certain amount of money this week, and there'll be worth a certain amount of money next week, and that kind of fluctuates. And then if you put certain actors in combination together, then that gets you it really, it's a financial puzzle that the producers put together so that they don't take a bath, when they make your movie, you know, since they want to have us a floor, they want to have a concrete floor, that they're not going to fall beneath and just disappear forever. They need they need that insurance. And that comes through who you got in your movie. And, you know, I think one of the big hurdles, like I said, is finding a producer who really understands what the potential of your project is. Because those producers are the guys that are going to be able to go out there and talk to the financiers, and figure out different models. And there's several different ways to skin the cat. Which way is best at this time and place with this script with this cast. So there's a lot of different elements, and it takes years to figure out this producing stuff. But But beyond but that anybody can figure that out, that's math, what the magic sauce is, is being able to recognize a really good script, you know that that has the potential to make a really good film in a way that we haven't seen 99 times people why they make all these sequels and why or what's all these remakes, because it's already been proven to work. Nobody wants to take a step outside the formula. Because then you're in no man's land, you're in the unknown, you know, you're like you don't you can't pull up the list of numbers and say, well, this movie did this. And this movie did that this was released on Labor Day, and it did this. So there's all kinds of numbers surrounding that what's not surrounding is when you come up with something unique enough that it becomes an unknown, then, you know, you really you need to fall back on you're these are the actors I've got, these are the parts that are that are available. You know, generally men mean more than women in this crazy business, you know that I still don't understand that one. But somehow it's still a thing, you know, where a male movie star will bring more financing to a project than a female movie star. In most cases. That's strange to me, but part of the bit, it's just math, it's like insurance companies. And other like, we don't care, it's you know, there's been this many people die in car accidents on this road. Therefore, if you want, you know, if you want to drive on it, this is what you got to pay. So,

Alex Ferrari 43:16
And those those rules, by the way, change daily, they change daily, these little,

Thomas Jane 43:20
Not constantly fluid, in the end, the producers who are tuned in, are monitoring those fluctuations all the time, you know, and then where you can shoot monitors, then you get your rebates, you know, everybody would go to Louisiana because you'd get this great rebate. You go to Georgia, that's why Walking Dead and all these other things shoot in Georgia, they get a tax rebate, but that's when I was shooting hunting for HBO. We go to Detroit for a couple of weeks. We got this great rebate, but then you know they they've played fast and loose with their eBay money and it dried up. So now you don't go to Detroit anymore. Now you go to New Jersey. It's always fluctuate.

Alex Ferrari 44:03
No, it's and you know, another thing I discovered, I worked on a project where there was a name actor who they brought on, and then But then the filmmaker was working with them. And it's in the finance the project. But then by the time the movie came out, that actor had diluted his value for the year. And there was 12 other movie viewing too many movies. He did 12 other movies that year. That's a lot. That's a lot of movies. And then he went out to the district and he completely valued his name. So then then the filmmaker who that was was his that was his game. He went to distributors and like I really got three of his movies this year. I'm like,

Thomas Jane 44:42
You don't want to do that.

Alex Ferrari 44:44
As an actor, you I'm assuming you think about this as well as an actor. You're like, I can't be everything because

Thomas Jane 44:50
You can't flood the market with too much product. It's supply and demand. But some years are different than others. You know, one year you know, you're like I've got pay off this this debt, you know, I've got so I've got to do it and that but you know that then you're probably going to not work the next year for a while you want to keep that supply and demand going, you also want to be you can't work too little. Because then you know, then you're like, well, we don't know what your value is, because the last movie you had came out five years ago, it's a totally different business. Now, I don't know, you, then you're a wildcard and people don't really want to invest in that. But I think as an actor, one of the things that I've think that I hope that I've found some success in is choosing projects, you know, if what, what I like, what I hope for is that the projects that I do are at least going to be interesting, there's going to be it's not going to be some shady script, you know, and by the way, I've done it. But hopefully not a lot, you know, like maybe once or twice, I've done a script where I was like God, I really, I really need to pay the rent, you know, this month, I don't go do it. But and this is the only thing that's come across the table. And by the way, thank God that it did come across the table so I can hang on to my house, that's great. But you want to have the taste, to be able to choose good projects, at least they're good on page, they have a great script, they have an interesting director, some cool people are in it, who knows what it's going to turn into. But I choose projects based on the script and the people involved. But it's got to be something that's going to be fun for me to play and for you to watch. Because that I can take control of for the most part. I can have fun in a part that I'm having fun playing and I can make it enjoyable for you to watch. Everything else might suck. But that I can pretty much get get across the line. You know, the editor might fuck it up, the director might be up there becomes unrecognizable, but at least it starts out where that was a fun part and fun to watch.

Alex Ferrari 47:12
Yeah, and there was a good friend of mine who's an actor. He's like, Alex, sometimes I gotta take alimony movies. I called alimony movies is like I know they suck. They're horrible. I leave town when they get released. But I got to do what I

Thomas Jane 47:26
Got to do many of those you know exactly. What as Robert Duvall said, you know, he said one for the art, one for the condo.

Alex Ferrari 47:35
Great quote. That's amazing. Now I do have to ask you about a little short film you made called The Punisher dirty laundry. Which I mean, by the way, I loved your Punisher. I loved the way you play the character I you know, you are so amazing in that film. And when I saw the the short come out, I'm like, well, the cool level of Thomas Jane just went up because he made a just a short film a fan film almost. How did that come out? How did you get involved with that? How did that even get made?

Thomas Jane 48:07
I wasn't fully satisfied with the Punisher film that I did. Only because I had a vision, the vision that I had of the Punisher was slightly different than the slightly comic book version that we ended up doing. And I'm proud of that film. And it's got a lot of fans. And so I'm not taking anything away from the movie. And Jonathan Hensley did a great job. You know, it was I think it was his first directing was really successful writer of blockbuster films. And he wrote this and they gave him the chance to direct it. He gave it everything I had, I gave it everything I had. So there's a lot to be said for the film, but it is more of the character. I felt there was more to that character. There was an I wanted. So I was laying around one day, and I came up with that story. I was like, God, you know, and somebody had said something to me at a lunch or something, you know, they said, you know, you just need something to dine out on, you know, you need something that people are talking about this week. And you down out on it. Somebody call it hey, let me take you to lunch, you know, and I thought, all right, well, if I did a short film, and I came up with a story, I thought it was great. I had I was Chad St. John's a wonderful writer was a buddy of mine at the time, went to his wedding. And we were trying to get different projects off the ground at the time. And he had this terse, wonderful Walter Hill kind of style of writing, absolutely loved. So I called him up and I said, Hey, I've got this outline. You know, this is my, my thing. I want to make it a 10 minutes. And he wrote it. He wrote it in a weekend. And then I went to Phil's ronto who I would who I had worked with on a on a He Blumhouse movie. And I said, I asked him because Phil did a lot of commercials probably still does a lot of commercials. So he had any shot in town a lot. So he had crew that depended on him to for their livelihood. So, and Phil, of course, fantech state of grace. I mean, he's just a fantastic talent. And I thought that's a great combination. And then I put and then I went into another buddy, and who was a producer, and I said, you know, this, this won't cost us very much, because Phil is going to pull in a favor from his crew, you know, on a weekend, he's going to pull in favors for him, we got our crew together, we got our special effects together, we got the whole damn thing together, it all came together. And, and you know, and I put it, that was sort of my first foray into producing and making projects happen. And from that led to renegade my company. So I'm proud of that one. Very proud of it.

Alex Ferrari 51:09
It's it was such a fun, fun, fun short to watch. Now, tell me about your new project troppo.

Thomas Jane 51:16
Troppo. So troppo means it's an Australian slang word for going crazy in the tropical heat. Like, when you go up North Australia north, the more North it gets, the hotter it gets in Australia, because it's upside down. And then northern most you go, the hotter it gets, just until it just gets tough humidity. And so people literally lose their mind up there. And so they've got a word for it. It's called going troppo. You know, when you tear your clothes off and run down in the middle of the street yelling like Tarzan, you've gotten trapo. And I thought was a great title. It's not the title of the book, the title of the book is called Crimson lake. And it's by Candice Fox. She's a fantastic writer out of Sydney. James Patterson tapped her to co write some books. So that's how good she is. If you if you're into the mystery novels, Candice Fox is what definitely one to look up. The the second one is called redemption point, those two and then there's a third one, too. Those are great, great mystery books really nicely done. Why? Because they're all about character. Anybody can sort of put together a kind of a mystery. Well, not anybody. But mysteries are one thing that you can engineer. The thing that I think separates a good mystery from a great one is the characters. And that the mystery is ultimately about solving some mystery within yourself. You know, those are the kind of character driven material that I'm looking for, especially with Renegade. So we've got this. We've got this great book. And we this is about two years ago. And we went through the process of developing it. And you know, this, this was brought to us by a company, an Australian company, and they were interested in doing a CO production. And so those building pieces, building blocks were already in place, we came on more of the creative end, working with the showrunner working with the creative producers, protecting the material, making sure that that what I loved and what we loved about the novel actually made it onto the screen. And for the most part, we were successful. The show opened in Australia two months ago and did very well. And the most gratifying thing is that the fans of Candice Fox in Australia, love the show. So we didn't fuck it up. That that was good. That was really good to hear. And now it's a matter of how the American audiences will respond to it. The only one of the changes we made was she wrote, she's an Australian writer writing out of Sydney. And all of her characters in the novel were Australian, and the lead character is this guy, Ted Caffee. He's a disgraced cop. He's, he's a good detective accused of a horrible crime. And I was interested in what does the detective do he he seeks the truth. He's a truth seeker. If he's good at it, he needs to seek the truth. Right? He's passionate about it the way I'm passionate about acting the way you're passionate about directing. This guy is passionate about seeking the truth. And that passion, that truth seeking thing, that inability to leave something alone that you have to sneak in there and find out what's going on is what led to him getting accused of this horrible crime. You know, if he had just left well enough alone, it would have just been another day, but because he He's a truth seeker. It ruined his life. So the core of that is, you know, what happens when the thing that I do best the thing that I am, ruins my life. You know, that was fascinating to me. And I add in the other lead character is Amanda. So they've got these two leads, and they couldn't be she is this young 20 Something shaved head tattooed, badass, crazy person who just got out of prison, she spent a decade in prison for killing her best friend in high school. So she's, you know, this, these are not two people that were going to be hanging out together in a bar at all. But because and she got out of prison, and then went back to the town where she committed the murder and open up a detective agency. But she doesn't know how to be a detective. She hasn't done the first fucking thing about it. So she figures she sees me and knows that I am an ex detective. And she figures Well, this this guy, this is what I need. And they start this uneasy relationship, you know, and the only reason Ted takes the gig if he doesn't take the gig. Don't get me wrong. He's like, alright, I'll do this once. I'll go ask these quick, but that's it. He's constantly trying to get out of it. But the thing that keeps pulling him back in is that glimmer of hope you know that because he's a truth seeker. He says that glimmer of being able to do what he does best. So really neat story, great characters.

Alex Ferrari 56:37
And where's it going to be in it's going to be played on for is a freebie, Amazon?

Thomas Jane 56:40
Yeah, if you go to Amazon, and then I think there'll be a banner for free D free, which used to be the IMDB TV app. Okay. And now they changed the name to free anyway, there'll be a banner on top of Amazon troppo. find on Amazon.

Alex Ferrari 56:58
Now I'm gonna ask you a few questions. Ask all of my guests. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Thomas Jane 57:06
Run!

Alex Ferrari 57:09
You know what, that advice has been said on the show many times.

Thomas Jane 57:14
Not too far from the truth. You want to be a filmmaker? Well, what you do is you make films. Don't wait around for somebody to hand you a bunch of money. A lot of folks out there are waiting around for somebody to handle a bunch of money a lot. I would even say maybe most great. If you want to put the pedal to the metal put your money where your mouth is, you know, you got an Coppola said this years ago I remember Coppola giving a great speech about in this was right at the dawn of cell phones. You know, right at the dawn, I think I think it was the iPhone one that just come out. And he goes, you got one of these. You got no excuses. I mean, he was blown away by the technology. And he's right. I mean, there's a great film called tangerine all shot on the jungle. Shaun Baker Soderbergh shot on the iPhone. Look, you got no excuse you want to make if you're a filmmaker, where's your film? Where's your film?

Alex Ferrari 58:16
If you're a painter, where's your painting?

Thomas Jane 58:18
There it is. And, and it doesn't even have you know, you don't even need actors. I mean, one of the greatest movies I've seen in a long time was called the bear.

Alex Ferrari 58:28
Oh, it was oh my god, the 89. I remember very well. Oh,

Thomas Jane 58:33
It's a French film. It is it is a bear. It's about a bear and a baby bear. And it's their adventures through the wild. It's absolutely gorgeous. You know, you should be able to tell a story with rocks with smiley faces on it. You know, I'm not kidding. It's great. To be able to tell a compelling story with the motion and everything you want to get across using sock puppets. Okay, so there's no excuse. There's there's never never an excuse, you know, and it's fun. The challenge of it is amazing. And then you know, and then you got the puzzle. How am I going to come up with something that people want to watch and that people maybe haven't seen before? Or how am I going to come up with something that they have seen before but I'm gonna do it better than anybody else. It's just a potpourri of Delights out there right now and you can all you can do it with just whatever's in your house, you know, the computer, the phone races and it's fun. There's a really neat lens that came out a couple of years ago that say 235 it's so it's so and you've slipped You slip it onto your iPhone Have you seen that?

Alex Ferrari 59:49
Oh, it's amazing.

Thomas Jane 59:51
It's really well done it's it's not cheap. And it's well grabbed the lens is really well ground and I'll give you that widescreen form Add on your phone. That's amazing. Yeah, I had fun playing with that for a long time.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:05
And two last questions. What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry or in life?

Thomas Jane 1:00:11
Oh my god. What are hard lessons to learn? You know? I guess one of the hardest lessons to learn is that I'm good enough.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:23
That's been that the exact answer has been said multiple times on this on the show.

Thomas Jane 1:00:27
Well, it's true. You know, and, as an actor, I gotta tell you, it took me a long time to become an actor that that I would want to watch. You know, that I had problems, I had problems. Being in front of the camera, I had problems being on set, I was nervous. I was, I had the imposter syndrome, I had a real difficulty calming down enough so that I could concentrate enough and relax so that I could do what I wanted to do. Because I be great in my bathroom. And rehearse and yeah, a lot, you know, and I knew the character that I wanted to bring the life and if it wasn't, wasn't coming out, you know, it's like, that is not what I saw when I was laying on my couch daydreaming about what this part was, you know, or doing my research. And it took me a long time to be able to relax. And, and, you know, and part of that is sort of a you know what, this is what I got, you know, and that is liberating.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:35
And last question three of your favorite films of all time.

Thomas Jane 1:01:40
Oh, my gosh, three of my favorite films

Alex Ferrari 1:01:43
That come to mind today.

Thomas Jane 1:01:45
Oh, come on, right. come to mind today. Well, I've got to mention the samurai films right now. So that counts is why samurai one, two and three. There you go. I call that one movie. No. Now you're gonna have me kicking myself later on. Okay, here's a great film you should check out last of silence. heard of that one?

Alex Ferrari 1:02:08
No, I've not.

Thomas Jane 1:02:09
It's an old I'm a real big fan of Noir. This is a late Noir. Who the low budget low budget if you guys are if you guys are all filmmakers out there, you gotta check out blast to silence. I don't I think this guy maybe directed one or two things. And I can't remember his name, unfortunately. But black and white, early 60s. So late noir period, crime movie, called the blast of cyber just blast of silence. I think even criterion might have put that out. We'll look for it. All right, there's there's two, right? And let's see number three. You know, I mean, the movie that has stayed with me and changed my life, and made me want to change my life was alien. Alien changed. I was eight years old. Right? And I always say I think I've said this in 100 interviews. But but but people ask me and so that's the truth. But I was eight years old, my folks, you know, they didn't have money for babysitters. So they drag us kids. My sister was only five. But that movie made a huge impression on me. I got the booklet. My dad made my dad by me, the guy used to hand sell these books, and it was full of information and pictures. I took that to school and I told all my buddies, we're not going to see alien, you know, their parents, we're not taking them the alien. I acted out the whole movie for all my friends over and over again. And that was the beginning.

Alex Ferrari 1:03:50
Thomas, it's been an absolute honor and privilege talking to you, my friend. Thank you so much for entertaining us for all these years. And I'm so looking forward to seeing all the new projects you do with Renegade and the stuff that you're doing in the future. My friend, thank you again. And thank you for being so honest and raw, and forthcoming about all this information. Hopefully, it's gonna help some filmmakers out there. So I appreciate you my friend.

Thomas Jane 1:04:09
So buddy, it was great talking to you. Thank you. Thanks for having me.


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BPS 114: The Craft of Screenwriting Tentpole Films with Boaz Yakin

We have for you on the show today screenwriter and director, Boaz Yakin, The writer behind The Punisher, Dirty Dancing: Havana Nights, The Rookie, & Safe and directing, The Fresh, Remember the Titans and the comedy-drama, Uptown Girl among others.

Growing up in a talented theatrical family, it was only natural for Yakin to pursue a life in film or some sort of performing arts. His dad, who was a teacher at Juilliard and a theater director enrolled Boaz into the famous Stell Adler script analysis class when he was only 17 years old. Thereafter, he tried out film school at US City college, later transferred to NYU, before quitting school after his first script was auctioned and got him in the door at 19 years old.

At age 22, Yakin wrote his first produced film, Marvel’s The Punisher. When Frank Castle’s family is murdered by criminals, he wages war on crime as a vigilante assassin known only as The Punisher.

In 1990, Yakin co-wrote one of the action films of the times, The Rookie, starring star boy Charlie Sheen, and Clint Eastwood who also directed the film.

But his big hit came right after, FRESH, Yakin’s directorial debut is an emotional coming of age story, that offers a realistic glimpse of the dangerous life in New York City’s projects during the crack epidemic.

Michael, nicknamed Fresh, a 12-year-old kid running drugs for gangsters, notably Esteban, inspired by the chess lessons of his father, an alcoholic speed-chess master played by Samuel L. Jackson. Fresh devises and executes a brilliant plan to extricate himself and his drug-addicted sister from their hopeless lives.

Next up for Boaz was directing the box-office smash REMEMBER THE TITANS.

Academy Award® winner Denzel Washington shines in REMEMBER THE TITANS. Based on real events, this remarkable story celebrates how a town torn apart by friction and mistrust comes together in triumphant harmony. After leading his team to fifteen winning seasons, beloved football coach Bill Yoast (Will Patton) is demoted and replaced by tough, opinionated Herman Boone (Washington).

How these two men overcome their differences and turn a group of hostile young men into champions is a remarkable portrait of courage and perseverance. You and your family will never forget the Titans!

His blockbuster smash, Now You See Me featured big industry names like Morgan Freeman, Jesse Eisenberg, Isla Fisher, Dave Franco, Mark Ruffalo, Woody Harrelson, Michael Caine, etc. The $75 million budget film grossed $351.7 dollars.

The plot follows an FBI agent and an Interpol detective who track and attempt to bring to justice a team of magicians who pull off bank heists and robberies during their performances and reward their audiences with the money.

Boaz continued his blockbuster ways by working on the $200 million tentpole film Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time, starring Jake Gyllenhaal.

A young fugitive Prince and Princess must stop a villain who unknowingly threatens to destroy the world with a special dagger that enables the magic sand inside to reverse time.

Boaz and I chatted about his creative process, the business side and political side of screenwriting and directing in Hollywood during this conversation. He was extremely raw and honest about what it really is like working inside the Hollywood machine.

Enjoy this conversation with Boaz Yakin.

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Alex Ferrari 2:15
Now guys Today on the show we have Writer Director, Boaz Yakin. Now Boaz has been a successful screenwriter and director in Hollywood since the early 90s. He wrote a couple of my favorite late 80s early 90s films The Punisher starring doff longeron and the rookie starring Charlie Sheen and Clint Eastwood. He made his directorial debut with his first film fresh which you wrote and directed, and went on to direct Remember the Titans and writing scripts like uptown girls Dirty Dancing Havana nights, the Prince of Persia, the sands of time, the blockbuster smash, now you see me and directing films like safe with Jason Stapleton and the family film, Max. And that's just to name a few. I had the pleasure of sitting down with Boaz and just going into the weeds in regards to his creative process, the business side and politics side of screenwriting and directing in Hollywood. And to be honest, he was extremely forthcoming, raw and honest about what it really is like working and building a very stellar career in Hollywood. So without any further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Boaz Yakin. I like to welcome the show Boaz Yakin.

And how you doing, buddy?

Boaz Yakin 3:43
I'm great. Thank you for having me, Alex.

Alex Ferrari 3:45
Oh, man, thank you so much for being on the show, man. Like I was saying, before we got started. I'm a fan. I've been a fan of yours for a while of films, you've written songs you've directed for sure. And it's, you know, it's, I just wanted to have you on the show to talk shop, man.

Boaz Yakin 4:00
Thank you. I'm glad to do it.

Alex Ferrari 4:01
So. So um, so first and foremost, how did you get into the business?

Boaz Yakin 4:07
Wow. Now this is a long time ago. Right? I know.

Alex Ferrari 4:11
You were only 25 bucks. How is that?

Boaz Yakin 4:13
Yeah. I haven't seen that for a long time. I, I was, you know, I grew up in a very with a very theatrical family. So it's kind of a family business. My father's a teacher at Juilliard and a theatre director and I always had that in my life, you know. And, in fact, I was lucky enough that when I was in high school, my dad got me into Stella Adler ad with a great acting teacher Stella Adler's script analysis class when I was 16 0 17. She never let anyone my age. See her classes and that was probably the most important school I ever got. was hearing her break down plays from the social Economic, religious personal perspective. And it really filled me up even as a teenager with an appreciation and a love for writing, even though it was ostensibly an acting class. And I thought I wanted to become an actor and I didn't get into Juilliard. And almost immediately after I went to film school, I went to a US city college because my grades were so bad in high school, I had to go to City College, and then I did get into NYU for a year. And this is a long time ago, this is the 80s. Now, what I think a lot of people don't necessarily understand, who are younger, is it screenwriting and getting into the movies wasn't as popular of a thing back then, as it is now. So for instance, I could get into NYU with grades that were pretty shitty. Today, I would never, ever get into Tisch, like with the grades that I got into Tisch with in the 80s, right. And I, I remember, my some teacher, one of my film teachers gave a course, a few days of how to get into the movie business. And it was all about like, you know, getting into a production company and working in internships and all this kind of stuff. And I have to say, I had a panic attack, because I hate real work. And I kind of attacked him after class. And I was like, Dude, what do you do to be a movie director? I can't listen to all this production companies. And he was nice enough, he said, Let me take you out to lunch. And he took me out to lunch. And he told me that a lot of directors start out as writers it was editors decides that I can do that. Right. So I actually wrote a screenplay on my spare time, when I was a sophomore at NYU. And my dad knew a guy who knew a guy, you know, and I'd sent him the script. And next thing I knew an agent from LA was calling me up saying I want to, I think I can option your script. And he did, he auctioned it. And I optioned it to a producer who had, at the time was already older and had produced some big films like he had produced the exorcist and a couple of things. And I auctioned the script. And I ended up moving to Hollywood, at like, 20- 19 years old actually left school. And I was terrified. But I came out here to work. And I started a career very, very young. I didn't the script never got made that it up. But it got me in the door, took a while for me to get stuff made. But I got in the door, and I started working, that must have been like 1986 or something.

Alex Ferrari 7:34
So the film that you wrote your first produced credit that I saw, which is because during that time 88, 89 I was working with a video store, I was still in high school. So between basically between 87 to 93, I'll go head to head with anybody in general pursuit, as far as film are concerned. So you made a few films, or you written a few films during that time. That was the hidden one of them being you wrote the first Punisher

Boaz Yakin 8:07
Yeah, I did. Was I mean, it was rewritten, rewritten by the producer would have been a lot better if it hadn't been but

Alex Ferrari 8:16
the theme of the show I hear,

Boaz Yakin 8:18
yeah, well, no, sometimes your shit, isn't that good. And someone else makes it better. I mean, that's happened to me once or twice. But but that time, it was just that Yeah, I was very young. I was like, 22. And I pitched them The Punisher idea. No one was making superhero movies at that time. In fact, you know, and, and it got made, it got made

Alex Ferrari 8:41
within a pitch the Punisher, and then then they went, they called up Marvel and said, Hey, can we get the rights to me?

Boaz Yakin 8:47
Yeah. And remember, at the time, Marvel, no one was making Marvel movies they were making like Captain America, and like weird rubbers are so bad. Like, and it was like, did you know so no one was making Marvel movies. Basically, yeah, I pitched the Punisher to this mentor of mine, who was a producer as well as a writer, and took it over to new line or new new world new worlds pictures, not new world pictures. And they went for it. And I wrote it. And what was interesting was that a lot of the time, their concern was it was to comic books. Right? Meaning that like, he had a skull on the shirt and all this stuff. So they changed a bunch of that stuff. And then very shortly afterwards, the Batman film The Tim Burton did, came out. And sort of right, they were around the same exact time or right afterwards. And it sort of changed the game in terms of what people were willing to do and how they were willing to approach it. But yeah, that was my first produced credit.

Alex Ferrari 9:45
So that for people not around at that time, in 1989, which is an amazing year for films. You couldn't walk the street without seeing a bathroom somewhere.

Boaz Yakin 9:57
Yes, that's right. Very big.

Alex Ferrari 10:00
It was everywhere. And it's so funny like punishers alerts and comic books. But because Batman is not comic books at all,

Boaz Yakin 10:11
But they really went for it with that with that version of the film. And that kind of opened things up for people a lot.

Alex Ferrari 10:17
Yeah, and that's, that's something a lot of screenwriters starting out have to understand is when you are, and even when you're more established you once you sell that script, unless you're a producer and or director on it, the powers you kind of let go, it's like you put it out.

Boaz Yakin 10:34
You know, I mean, obviously, I've managed to move into directing, after some years and all that. But one thing that I always, at the time when I was young, and I wrote scripts, I found it very painful to like write something and then have it taken away and completely reworked by somebody else. At this point in my life, when I'm writing a, quote, unquote, studio type film or something like that, I just for It's been years now I just want to do a draft or two, and then please fire me and take it. And like, you basically know that unless two or three other people rewrite your script, it's not going to get made

Alex Ferrari 11:17
Right.

Boaz Yakin 11:18
So when you're dealing with more personal films, with independent films, that's a completely separate story. When you're dealing in the studio system, you do a lot better for your health and mental well being understanding that you're part of a factory, that there is zero personal element involved, that you have to just be willing to like do your best as a craftsman and a professional, which doesn't mean you're not doing good work, right? It just means that you're treating it as a craftsman and as a professional, and hope that whatever combination of elements comes together and that they go make it somehow and that you make some money. But as a young person, you have this dream as a writer, whatever, that somehow Your voice is meaningful and that the film is going to reflect with it. Forget about it. So you know that that's definitely a learning experience. I think that screenwriters go through.

Alex Ferrari 12:13
Yeah, cuz everyone can, I'm going to be Storkin or I'm going to be Terrantino no first script out. I'm like,

Boaz Yakin 12:18
Well, but don't forget that Quentin direct his own movies. He's a filmmaker, right? PT Anderson direct his own movies. Wes Anderson direct his own room, right there. If you're going to be a script writer, it's a whole different story. You may be Aaron Sorkin you know, some of it, you know, he was also for the most part, someone who did television. I mean, he did a few features, right. But his his real, his real kind of claim to fame is television. And in television, the writers can, which is very different than feature films. That is a different world when we talk about TV, and now TV is much bigger, right? Like network, like, the writer in the writers room. And the executive producer is a different story in movies, the writer is not in the same position as the writer isn't in television.

Alex Ferrari 13:06
So then after the Punisher, you do another one of my favorite films of that time period, which is the Rookie with ..., it was in my mind,

Boaz Yakin 13:15
it's hard for me to talk about these things, you know what I mean? But like, Okay, why not?

Alex Ferrari 13:21
And the rookie, in my mind, I remember it fondly. I don't I don't want to watch it again. Right now, because I love the memory that I have of it. And then you know, start start a Clint Eastwood and a young, a young Charlie Sheen. So it was it was a warner brothers film, it was it was a studio project.

Boaz Yakin 13:39
Yeah. And look, I have to say I'm grateful, immensely grateful for it in the sense that like, first of all, it was I was 23 years old. It was a lot of money. And not just that, Clint was incredibly generous with me. And allowed me to watch him direct the whole film. I was there behind this, that the monitor the whole time and never spoke. But I got to watch his process. I got to see the way he ran a set, I got to understand the way he set up shots and constructed sequences. And it was an incredible film school. For me, it was probably the greatest film school I've ever had was just to sit behind Clint and watch him direct the whole film. And, you know, there's not a lot of actually, as I've learned, there's not a lot of filmmakers that would even allow a writer on set for more than two minutes, or two days, you know, and the fact that as long as I shut up, he let me sit there and just watch every day was was really something and when I directed my first film, so many of the lessons that I learned from from Clint Eastwood were there. So I'm forever grateful for it.

Alex Ferrari 14:52
And it's so funny because I was talking on the show to John Lee Hancock, who also did a movie with plant called a perfect world and he did yeah. The exact same thing he did with John Lee was just like, now I'm hearing it. And I'm hearing these stories as I'm talking to people who have worked with him. He does that for writers. And he didn't leave you and young people, just writers who were directors yet.

Boaz Yakin 15:15
Yeah. And he's he's very generous and very giving. And the thing that was really interesting about watching him direct. One of the things that's amazing, and really was something I learned from, aside from the creative aspect was how drama free Clint is, and how much he likes a drama free environment and how little he'll tolerate, you know, excessive, you know, emotions and like, and I appreciated that I love a quiet professional environment without drama without bullshit, you know, and I've had it, because I'm not Clint and people create that, you know, but as an aspirational work environment, it really did teach me a lot. But the other thing that's interesting about and I know this is about writing, but that's really great about watching Clint work is that Clint does very, very little planning, right? Like sometimes he'd show up on the set, and it would pick up or he'd go in a location scout and he'd see the set for the first time on the location scout. And he would basically plan out how to do a scene on the way to work, right? He didn't have a lot of shortlist, no storyboards, no nothing. And what that did was it created an environment where essentially, you're watching the person construct the scene right in front of you, right? There's nothing more boring than to watch a director's coming in with all of this planning and all the storyboards and everything. You're basically watching something that's completely pre planned. I mean, it can be fantastic, right? But with Clint, you really got to watch him create the scene on the spot. So you learn. And what was interesting for me was that like, after a few weeks, I could literally tell you where he was going to put the camera next from what to like, and be right 25 to 30% of the time, like, because I started to understand the process of how something was constructed. You know, and it really was an incredible film school on that particular way.

Alex Ferrari 17:16
That's amazing. That's an IT he did he directed he directed the movie too, right.

Boaz Yakin 17:20
Yeah, he starred and directed it.

Alex Ferrari 17:22
He directed Yeah, because it well, we could talk about calling for hours. But that's a whole other. That's a whole other show for another episode. Now, how did you make your jump? Because I know a lot of screenwriters listening to like I want to direct How did you make that jump from that to fresh which is your directorial debut?

Boaz Yakin 17:39
Well, what really happened was, you know, I am, you know, when you're young and kind of like your life is like that John Fabra movie in LA what was that movie?

Alex Ferrari 17:49
It is Swingers were

Boaz Yakin 17:49
Swingers, right? Like, yeah, like, that's literally what it was like to be 20 something in Los Angeles at that time. And you I didn't even enjoy that movie, because I was just kind of like, this is not like, it is boring. Like what happens when I walk outside? You know, now you watch it. You're like, God, super entertaining. And then, you know, but at the time, it was just like, what this shit like, no, but But anyway, that's it pretty much exactly what our lives were like. So I had a number of friends that I was making at the time, right? And a couple of my best friends was like this, this guy called Scott Spiegel, who co wrote Evil Dead two with Sam Raimi. And my friend Lawrence Bender, who was just an aspiring producer at the time, and, and I had put them together, I knew them separately, and they made Lawrence produced this little horror movie Scott did on Trudeau. Right

Alex Ferrari 18:39
Right.

Boaz Yakin 18:40
And after the rookie got made, honestly, I had gotten to a place which is, by the way, still, what I struggle with all the time in this creative field that we're in is that, you know, I started out trying to write commercial films and action films and all that, but I very quickly, so quickly, because I was only barely 23 realized it's not very much what I wanted to do at all with my life. And actually, I decided to quit the business and go live in Paris and write a book like, like most young Americans off to try and do. But before I left, I put together Scotty and my friend Lawrence, and I had met Quentin Tarantino through my friend Sheldon. And both Scotty and I were like, I was like, you gotta meet Scotty and Scotty actually ended up becoming friendly with Lawrence. And he introduced Lawrence to Quentin. And so while I'm in Paris, Lawrence and Quentin went away and made Reservoir Dogs. And I really had wanted to leave the business and so on. And I did write my book that never got published. And when I came back, Lawrence and Quentin had finished the movie and it had gotten some kind of like some real hype behind it. And it was Lawrence who pulled me back in Lawrence was kind of like Boaz. If you read the script, I think that we make can make for a low enough budget. I think I can get the money for it and so I spent half a year or however long researching and writing trash it took me a while on that one It took us a while to find the funds some French financing and we made the movie but that's that's how it came together It was actually Lawrence who pulled me back in after I was going to quit you know?

Alex Ferrari 20:21
Yeah. And from what I heard is more inset that as legend goes more into the one that'll quit and Hey, give me a minute. I'm gonna see if I can find money he's like, Man, I'm just gonna do this 50 grand with some friends on the weekend it that's why

Boaz Yakin 20:35
That's actually true Lawrence connected with Monte Hellman and with I think Lawrence pulled in Harvey titled said give me a little time. And he pulled on Harvey Keitel and managed to make the movie for like a million something rather than 30 - 40,000. So the Lawrence was the Lawrence was instrumental in that.

Alex Ferrari 20:52
Now, I'm one of the films that you directed that I absolutely adore. And I've seen as participant encounters Remember the Titans. It was just such a wonderful, wonderful film. How did you get involved in that because you didn't write that one right? You were just a director?

Boaz Yakin 21:07
I mean, I did rewrites But no, I look it was I had made I had made fresh. I made a movie about a frustrated Hasidic housewife with her nasal webinar called a price of always a popular genre. Backdrop is pasta has Coulter box office go frustrated see them. Although they didn't really did one on Netflix this this year that got a lot of attention, I have to say. It's called was it called Unreligious or something that I don't remember. Shira Haas was fantastic. And anyway, but um, I was actually in a position where I was having a hard time as I always find myself a hard time getting anything made. The Bruckheimer people reached out to me about the movie, and frankly, I would, you know, the truth of the situation is this. None of the big directors that they wanted to, for that movie, were willing to do it because Disney was only giving them a very limited budget. So the usual Bruckheimer suspects, you know, Tony Scott, people like that, we're just like, I'm not gonna do this,

Alex Ferrari 22:13
I don't, I don't get I don't get up for less than 100. Now

Boaz Yakin 22:16
He was doing what he does sometimes, which is he then looks for like an independent, whatever, someone that he can bring in. And I needed a job. I had no interest in making a football film or a Disney film. And that, you know, but I recognize that if I didn't try and do something like that, that I was going to be in trouble. And I kind of audition for it. I The script was like, 140 pages long. And then one weekend, I kind of cut 40 pages out and restructured things and showed it to them. And they were like, Okay, you've got the job. And I went in and I made it. I wish I had been less conflicted about it and enjoyed the process more, it was very challenging to make a film that became like, by far the most successful film I could have made. And it was the film I was the least interested in, in many ways at the same time, you know, and that's always a blow in some way. I wish I had handled it better. And with a little bit more fun and grace, but I it's it's sort of what, what ended up happening.

Alex Ferrari 23:22
Yeah. And it wasn't, it was a fairly big hit. I remember,

Boaz Yakin 23:25
I was a huge hit, and it's very watchable till this day. So

Alex Ferrari 23:30
I mean, I could turn it on with my girls. And we just watched it, it just, it's just such a it's just that that twist the heartbreaking scene and you're like, Oh, my God, like there's still emotion, so much emotion in that. And what was it like working with Intel on that project and directing it? Once you're, you're out? You got to? You got to two features under your belt at that point, right? And then yeah,

Boaz Yakin 23:49
mismatched features.

Alex Ferrari 23:50
Is that right? So then you got Denzel who was Denzel at that time, he still stands out.

Boaz Yakin 23:54
He was Denzel. He wasn't Denzel post Titans and post training day which he made those two movies one two punch really solidified themselves, like the major star, but at the time, he he still was, you know, he still was Denzel Washington. And you know, I, I can't say that. It's like, I direct you basically just where are you going to be you know, and then Okay, let's make the medium shot and but, you know, we he knew what he was doing to an extremely high degree. I think he was seeing the same movie as I was, you know, and so it went pretty smoothly in that regard.

Alex Ferrari 24:35
Now, let me ask you, when you when you write, do you start with character? Or do you start with plot? I always look at the question.

Boaz Yakin 24:45
I think I always start with character. Always except the man even, except for when I'm trying to come up with a more commercial Hollywood type idea. Then sometimes you think about plot, no, of course, plot always involves character in the sense of, there's this guy, or this gal who does this, and this is their problem. And this is what they're trying to solve, oh, it's about a spider fell out of the sky, you know, I don't know, it's always a character. It's always a human being. But, you know, with a more sort of, quote, unquote, commercial ideas, you know, you tend to think more of the situation. You know, and and I think with more personal work, you think more about the emotional and kind of his social emotional situation and the person's. But it does always start with with the character.

Alex Ferrari 25:38
Now, what, what advice would you give writers who, to on how to write a good protagonist? Something that like that can drive that story?

Boaz Yakin 25:49
Wow, I mean, that's such a personal kind of a thing. You know, I mean, I don't even know how to advise someone on something like that. Not not being evasive. But I do think, I guess, I mean, again, it's different when you're writing a studio film, and when you're writing a personal kind of a piece, it's quite different, although maybe certain similar rules apply, in terms of not being boring, and so on. But I think a strong connection to what that person wants, and meet, or at least what that person is searching for, even if it's unspecific. Right, because I mean, I think that's the thing that I think is sort of frustrating about trying to write commercial films or is that, you know, people are always asked to kind of come up with a very specific want or need or desire that somebody has. And if a person isn't driven in a particular direction, people have very little patience for it. Whereas I find that a lot of times, human beings, right, we are in an ambivalent state. And that a lot of stories that are interesting to me are about ambivalent people who are in a particular cycle of their lives. And somehow something happens to them in that space, that moves them into recognizing what it is that they are needing or wanting, or connecting to, and so on. But I always find myself starting from a very ambivalent state. And I think it makes for interesting pieces, but it makes for pieces that take more patients in the opening stages for an audience to get into, does that make sense?

Alex Ferrari 27:42
It makes perfect sense. It makes perfect sense. One area that that is not really talked about enough, I think with screenwriters, and I think this is where screenwriters and filmmakers for that matter, get sideswiped in our business is the politics behind the scenes, the stuff that you have to deal with, about how to get that how to get us to finance how to how to deal with personalities, how to deal with ego, how to deal with agendas. Do you have any advice? Because obviously, you've been able to navigate these waters

Boaz Yakin 28:14
Not so well all the time. I mean, when you think about the fact that I've been in the film business for 30 years

Alex Ferrari 28:21
Right,

Boaz Yakin 28:22
Like, the amount of scripts that I've actually had out there that got made or that you know, hey, the most personal work I've done, I paid for myself. Like the to like the movie, I just made a Viva this other movie I made it's very dark and painful and personal death and love. I paid for them with my life savings, no one finance them. You know, and not not a lot of people do that. And the last one I did before that this little strange little kitsch horror movie thing I did called boarding school. Like, I paid for a ton of it. Not all of it, but for a ton of it. And it's it's very, like, it is very challenging. And, you know, making a movie, even a lower budget movie. That's the thing, right? That that's the thing that's so difficult with our business, right, is that it takes so much money to make a movie, even if it's a small film, right? Even if it's a few, even if you're talking about a mic what they call a micro budget movie. Hey $150,000 in the real world is a fuckload of money, right? And people don't want to give you their $150,000 any more than some big company wants to give you $15 million. Right. And everyone wants to know there's going to be a return on their investment and Odetta. And it makes for a completely uncreative not risk taking, not kind of encouraging exploration environment, especially here in the states where you have no funding from like the government or anything like that, right? So there is no Lars von Trier here. There is no, there is no Thomas vinterberg here, right like it. There are good filmmakers here. Right. The Cohens are incredible. But somehow that filmmaker has to find the Zeitgeist that that work, they have to fit their work into an environment that makes a certain amount of money, right. And they have to, you can't really explore or, and fuck up and discover the way you can. And other art forms the way writers can, or painters can or even musicians can write. And it makes for a very boring array of work.

Alex Ferrari 30:53
So when you talk about politics and trying to get your stuff work, like, I would easily say that 90% 95% of what I think the most interesting stuff I've written is never got to the light of day. Now, am I saying it's great, or that that it up? No, not at all. It's interesting, though. And that doesn't really cut it in our particular field, because people have to feel they're going to make money off it. So it's challenging. And if you want to be a script writer, and if you want to sell your work, and if you want to be a solid, you know, you have to make sure your work can fit stars in it still till this day, and that actors who have some kind of a name are going to want to do it. It has to sort of fit cleanly into some kind of genre that people feel they can make money from. And, you know, anything that isn't that is very infrequent.

Right? And even when you were coming up, I mean, look, can you imagine taxi driver? Or Raging Bull? Getting finance today? I mean

Boaz Yakin 31:58
No, no, the differences. I mean, we all know that, like movies with the actual budgets that feature, you know, production value, and all that, that you can make with certain stars and all that in the late 60s 70s, very early 80s, that doesn't exist anymore. They take more chances with streaming shows and things like, you know, the taxi driver of then became the Breaking Bad of today, right where you have? No, but I will say this as much as they take chances. And they have like, you know, dark protagonists and things like that, right? All started by the sopranos, I suppose, right? Like and all that. The fact that these things need to go on for three, four years, to me inherently saps them. Have for me personally, have a genuine creative perspective. So at that creative art, I guess it's such a silly word artistic or something like that.

Alex Ferrari 32:59
I understand what there's like, like, there are there, there's this film, there's a shows that just go go go go. But something like Breaking Bad. Who this event actually said it this is this is the arc. It's five seasons, this is how long they wanted.

Boaz Yakin 33:12
I mean, five fucking seasons of it. Like, I mean, it's a good, right. But after a few episodes are like I get it, he's breaking bad. I mean, what more do you need? Like, what can you say in five years that the Godfather two couldn't say in about three hours? And I'm not saying you know, and I don't know. So. And by its nature, it becomes diluted. There's like a ton of directors, even if some of them are very good. There's a writers room filled with writers

Alex Ferrari 33:42
a different vibe.

Boaz Yakin 33:43
It's a it's a product of some kind, it can be wonderful. It can be a great show that people love, like the wire or whatever. But it's still a product, a corporate product. Whereas there is still something to an individual film, you know, whether you're watching, you know, the master by PP Anderson or Grand Budapest Hotel, by west or some where you go. It's a piece, it's other piece. It's complete in a division, its perspective, it says what it wants to say. And that's it, you know, that that day is close to being done. And it was certainly easier in the 80s was already getting more difficult than it was in the 70s. And in the 60s. That now I think it's completely shifted.

Alex Ferrari 34:34
Well, I mean, if you look, if you look at Well, first of all, I think that one thing you said the product television is it's close to a product as we can create in our industry. Because you know, like that bottle you're drinking from right now that's a product. It's a battle. It's a price you make it for certain costs, and you get certain you get, you know, markup and that's it. Television is the closest thing we have to that that's why they just keep pumping them out because you can keep pumping up product product.

Boaz Yakin 35:00
A lot of super talented people doing it. Oh, and making high level writing high level work apps. And yet, there's something about it.

Alex Ferrari 35:11
No, I get I get you. But if you look, you're saying that, you know, you were sent mentioning Wes and MPP. And these guys, I'm noticing that films that actually get some budget, have some star power is rarely the young, unknown directors anymore, or even the young, you know, maybe have one or two, it's the colon, that it's the guy that came up in the 90s. In the early 2000s. The had those they came in at that right time, and they're there, they've got the keys to the castle to keep doing that. I mean, Woody did it for

Boaz Yakin 35:45
Well, you know, what happens now? What happens now, it's sort of like, you know, it's what happened was, like, because the corporate structure is become so overwhelming, like, right, like, you can't be a robot, like, you can't be the class anymore. And like, do four or five album and then finally, like, the media realizes, oh, shit, the class is awesome. And then put them on a tour with the who were already bloated and all that stuff. And then the class basically fall apart. But they've had like five fucking class albums before they, you know, the rock, the Cavs Bon Iver commercial, and it's done. Right. Right now, if someone does something successful for two seconds, Disney marked like big jump on these kids. And some kid who just did like, you know, a great first Sundance movie or whatever it is. The next thing you know, is they're directing like some gigantic Marvel movie they've been set or a jurassic park or whatever it is. And that's also what people want, like, people are starting to approach this idea of making their first film or whatever as this sort of like, entree into like, the main corporate product. And so you get good first films still. But you almost never get to second, or third or fourth, right? It's like if you went and made Reservoir Dogs, and the next thing he did was direct, you know, Captain Marvel, whatever, you would have never gotten Pulp Fiction, right? Never. And that's the difference is that people are still making Reservoir Dogs here and there or, you know, their versions of it. that no one's doing the second one and the third one and the fourth one that really allows a voice to grow. That's what was had that PT Anderson Wes Anderson, Quint, the Cohens huge, I mean, they're the best American filmmakers right now. Like, today, you do one thing, that's good. And the corporations are just all over you. And it's super tempting. You can't blame somebody. And it's getting harder and harder to get financing for second and third films, right. So essentially, it's almost like a little beauty contest making that first films like this little beauty contest, so that you get picked up by the corporations.

Alex Ferrari 38:08
And it sucks. No, and it's really good to like right now. So if today, Joel and Ethan, bust out blood simple, then the net, they're there on a Netflix series, or they're they're doing a Marvel film or or they're doing a gritty Star Wars Show. I mean, it's, you don't get

Boaz Yakin 38:29
And what's kind of, I don't need to go dark with it. But what's kind of depressing is how much what once was like a synopsis he asked and kind of like, film lover community, right has basically been co opted by the corporations into becoming this sort of Geek community that just like, will argue about, you know, how big hammer should be or whatever it is. And they genuinely care about this stuff. Whereas once that type of person was caring about, you know, what the next Scorsese movie was, or what the next parent you know, Terrence Malick movie was and now it's become this kind of I don't know what you even call it,

Alex Ferrari 39:19
It's, it's like it's a different thing. I mean, it's the basically now people listen to like, Oh, these two old farts are just talking about the good.

Boaz Yakin 39:28
I I enjoy. It's like, the thing that that I find difficult is that it's not like is that people have the priorities are so weird. It's like, people aren't looking at like these gigantic entertainment. Like we used to look at these gigantic studio entertainment movies, whether it was Indiana Jones or whatever. In the day. It's like, oh, man, this is so much fun. I'm like, this is so much fun. It's so entertaining. This is great, like fun product, but I'm going to put my attempt Going into something else, my attention, my critical faculties, my discernment, my my real focus into something else as both a fan, a critic, a, you know, a creative person. But that level, I mean, their level of attention paid to stuff that's essentially well made version of McDonald's hamburgers. It's like, and the kind of discussion that that gets is what has flipped from the way things used to be. So anyway, folks getting around to shipping,

Alex Ferrari 40:40
I mean, but there's still the Criterion Collection for the rest of us. And we get it. And we get to do that still. And I remember like, I had my laser dip. And I had, you know, with with Scorsese commentary, and Coco commentary, and Dracula, and I'm listening to them. And that's the cinephile in it. But yeah, it's, it's just a different world. And there's nothing that's been wrong,

Boaz Yakin 41:00
I have to admit that as an American. I mean, not to be like that. America bothers me. Like, my brother. And I just did this deep dive again, into like, how yummy is Jackie's entire, you know, old one, or smorgasbord? Or smorgasbord. You know, she's a genius of some kind, right? And he's a genius. And he is a popular filmmaker. I mean, he is the Disney of Japan, like he is the Spielberg and Disney wrapped up into one of Japan. All over the world. His movies are like enormous. And in the States, finally, because of like, they're on Disney plus, whatever, you know, people have finally seen a little bit but no one talks about it. Right? Like, that's not what people do here. I'm not saying it's not possible to make beautiful popular films. But I just feel like our particular culture and our particular filmmaking culture is is is pretty frustrating. I get it. I get it on in 10%. I understand exactly what you're saying.

Alex Ferrari 42:08
And we can keep going down this path for a while but

Boaz Yakin 42:12
Okay we'll go with another path. What path would you like to go down?

Alex Ferrari 42:16
So now the you actually wrote a sequel to a beloved classic called dirty dancer, and you deserted dancing Havana nights now? I particularly liked. I liked it a lot, because I'm Cuban. But you know, Viper,

Boaz Yakin 42:31
Really talking about things I'd rather not talk about anytime.

Alex Ferrari 42:36
I loved it. I thought it was a lot of fun. watching that.

Boaz Yakin 42:41
Glad you did.

Alex Ferrari 42:43
Apparently, I'm the only one is what you're saying.

Boaz Yakin 42:46
I think you're like the only one. Like I find it very difficult that it's on my IMDB page. And when I do when and when I do something else people always like Oh, the guy who wrote Dirty Dancing too. And you're like I did a fucking written you know? Wish. I know I come off like the crankiest person in the world. I'm not really but here's something is difficult talking about screenwriting. By the way,

Alex Ferrari 43:14
Sure go ahead

Boaz Yakin 43:18
as script writers, we have to make a living. Right. And I say this, you know, in thought, like, we have to make a living. There are a few brilliant people, like Quentin or PT, or whatever that everything they like to do is what other people like to see. And they managed to like, right? A lot of us have to make a living, because this stuff that we make our independent stuff isn't as successful, blah, blah, blah, you've got to keep a roof over your head, right? And what you can't do as a filmmaker is having non diploma, right? You can't have a non diploma, like when I do rewrites for Jerry or for whatever My name is, you know, jack Ryan, you know, and when I do my own stuff, it's Bo as a key because there's a lot of egos involved and a lot of people's pride involved. Right. And so like if you're going to do a rewrite for a producer on a project and everyone Hey, my name is good enough to be on this movie. What your net, it's not good enough for you. You know. Larimer McMurtry said something really interesting in this book about script writing he wrote called stone plan. You know, and it's like a series of essays about filmmaking. He's a fantastic novelist is right. And he's written some beautiful scripts. That's not really been his focus, but so he has some interesting and always funny and biting stories about Hollywood. And the thing that he says it's so interesting for anyone who takes Script meetings or tries to get jobs in the screenwriter or whatever is that there's this sort of illusion in our business, that you need to be passionate about the material that you're working on. Right? That like, when you're going to take that writing job for that script about the dog who flies and saves the day that you can't come in there and say, yeah, you know, I'd like to do this, because I just got a kid and I need to build an addendum to the house, and I can really use that. $150,000. So, yeah, I'm down to write the story about the dog with the cake. Right? You have to come in there and be like, you know, when I was a kid, I had a dog. And, and, and you know, and the dog died when I was 14. And I realized that dog meant so much to me. And I can really identify with this material, I think it's going to speak to everyone who loves it. Right. Right. And as Larry McMurtry says, some of the worst work ever done has been done by people passionate about that work. And some really incredible work has been done by professionals who, you know, decide not to do and who decided to do something because they needed to pay the rent and put their craft and imagination and intelligence do it, and fucking knocked it out. Right? Like, like whoever wrote, I don't know, anyway, I'm not going to get into specifics, but there's a lot of very good commercial work that's been done by people who did it with a sense of commitment, and and, and intelligence and professionalism, but not because they were dying to tell that particular fucking story, right. And I think that that sort of illusion that we need to create that we're so passionate about everything we do, because otherwise you won't get hired, basically puts people in a situation where a lot of the work that you see like a lot of you know, an A name on a script, like whether it's dirty dancing to or whatever it is, it's like, yeah, you know, you did a job, there were four writers on it, what your, what that piece ended up being has very little to do with what you actually wrote and maybe recognize three words of it, and some structural changes that you put into it, that were deemed significant enough by the Writers Guild committee to give you a credit, right? And you're happy about it, because it means you get residuals, and you got a credit. And that means you might get another job, right? But does it reflect you as a creative person? No. And you could argue, well, then don't do the jobs that don't reflect you as a creative person. Right? If that's going to be something difficult for you later on in life, don't do that job. Don't do things that you don't believe in. I get that point of view. I know people who haven't done it, and I've done well, I know people who haven't done it and are like, out of the business. And for me, it's always been this sort of juggling act of trying to find a way to do things that I like to do that really do reflect my perspective. And things that you go back. If I don't make some money this year, I'm fine. Oh, you know, this thing? Yeah, sure. I'm down. I know how to do that. Right. And that's the thing, that being a professional, you know what I mean?

Alex Ferrari 48:16
I love I love that you bring this up, because it is a almost a myth, that the struggling artists that so passionate about everything they do, and you know what, of course, you know, at a certain level, your private things and things that you do are at that, like, I'm passionate and passionate. But man, when I was coming up, I would take jobs directing stuff that I'm like, I don't want you know, or I would do, I would do post and I'm like, I don't even I don't even want my name on. You know, but it was it was it was a paycheck, and you have to do and that's what a professional is. Yes. Like you said, there are those few geniuses who gets do both, but that those are anomalies. You know, the Coen Brothers barn anomaly. pcns is an anomaly Wes Anderson's an anomaly Tarantino's an anomaly, these guys are anomaly in our business. So for the rest of us, sometimes you got to take jobs that you might not be happy with, or do something else, or figure another way out to tell your stories. I mean, I know the duplass brothers, they just dropped their budget down to a place where like, I could do whatever the hell I want. And they just go out and do it. Great. If that's the kind of storytelling you want to do, and that makes you happy as an artist. Great. I mean, I heard the story when the duplass brothers were brought into Marvel, and they were offered a movie and they're like, yeah, we're good. Yeah, we're, we don't want to do that. Because they understood what was that going to be entailed? Let them kind of talk about today. But that is a myth that needs to be broken that you like it's all about the passion and it is about the passion but man you got to eat sometimes man or Yeah,

Boaz Yakin 49:45
I mean, look, I I just made a film that really was that. I mean, I basically I lucked out, in the sense that this movie that I wrote, I every once in a while I write something I'm like I have right so I wrote this piece. A dance movie about the this thing called a diva about the difficulty in being both in your masculine and feminine self and the struggle in that regard. So I did a story about a couple where I had four actors playing two people, a man and a woman playing each of the two characters. It's a dance movie. It's a sex movie. I mean, it's it's fun. It's so much sex and dance and experimental

Alex Ferrari 50:27
disulfide argument 500 million worldwide box office.

Boaz Yakin 50:30
Exactly. I i. And you know what, I, I got a surprise check. from years ago from this little comedy I made for a for MGM called uptown girls. were like, 15 years later, money that I didn't realize I was owed, suddenly came to me. And I was like, I'm making my movie. And I took that money. And I put it into making this movie. And I made it and i and i love it. It's unique. It's different. It's personal. If I had $20 million, I would just make 20 of these things and not give a shit who saw them or who didn't? But I don't. So after you make one of those things, suddenly you're like, Oh, fuck, what do I do? I guess I got to find a way to build again, to pay the bills, and to make sure that I can make another film or whatever it is. So it's this constant dance, you know?

Alex Ferrari 51:37
What I love about you was and what you're because, again, from if someone just let's say your IMDb, they just like, Oh, well, he's this and he's doing that. And you're just like, Look, man, I pasted this myself. I'm an artist. I'm still I'm still hustling. I'm you're still doing it the way you want to do it. The normal the normal mind. And I always tell this filmmakers, it's been the worst that we're we've been infected. It's a horrible disease that we have, because it lies dormant for years sometimes, and then comes back up. The normal human being would have seen that check and said, Oh, good, I could put it away. And they asked for security. Maybe I can invest it. You said, I can make my movie. That's what I love about that. I love about you.

Boaz Yakin 52:20
Well, yeah. And you know, I mean, I think the other thing that is very, again, we're not talking about our outlier, don't makers who both do exactly what they want to do and get funded funding for it and all that. But I think that a real hole that people fall into. And maybe it's good, I think in some ways, maybe I should have done a little bit more of it. But I it always freaked me out is that when you find a way that you're successful, you make Remember the Titans or whatever. The next thing you're offered is like 10, big sports movies or like another job. And I had that opportunity after that movie. And I kind of freaked out. And I was like, This isn't who I am, this isn't what I want to do. And if I go down this road, I don't think I'll ever remember who I really am. So I pulled back and tried to do my own thing with moderate levels of success, rather than, you know, pursue the thing that's most comfortable. And that makes me the most money. And I'm not advising it to anyone. I'm not advising it to anyone. But I am proud of the fact that at my age, and after doing this for a long time, I'm still when I can pull it together, experimenting and trying things I've never tried before, and trying to do things that are off the beaten path, rather than just sort of perfecting this thing that I quote unquote, know how to do over and over and over and over again, may be great for some people, and some people may be creatively inclined in that way. But I find that very uninteresting. You know,

Alex Ferrari 54:01
What i what i respect about what you're talking about what you're saying what you're doing is that you're still willing at this stage in your career that you've been in the business for a long time, you've done a bunch of stuff, you're still taking the swing at the bat, you're still taking swings at the bay at the fete where a lot of guys. And a lot of a lot of professionals who are at this point in their career. They just want to say say I'm just gonna do I'm gonna do the sport.

Boaz Yakin 54:23
I know people who want to stay safe the minute they do their first thing that does well okay, I've known a lot of people like that. Honestly, now that I'm getting older and I'm like starting to look at that like oh my God wouldn't be nice just to be on a beach in Hawaii for the rest of my fucking life and stop with this shit. Now, like go oh my god, what am I an idiot? Like? I think a million dollar good. You know, like, I would have been nice to have some money to buy that fucking house in Hawaii, right? Instead, I made this RTS movie that no one's ever gonna see. So it is it is it's a mixed bag but you know the Truth is, as someone dropped the check on me tomorrow, I would turn around and make another movie with it. Right? Yeah, I wouldn't like Hawaii. So maybe that's something.

Alex Ferrari 55:12
But that's the sickness. That is the sickness of being an artist, you know, and being a brave artist because there are artists who are brave and artists who are brave, and you are brave artists, no question about it. Now, you know, I was gonna ask you about Prince of Persia, was that the

Boaz Yakin 55:25
Rewrite?

Alex Ferrari 55:26
It's a rewrite. Okay. So,

Boaz Yakin 55:28
Actually, I love I became really good friends with the guy who created the video game and wrote the first draft, right, but that's very much an example of what I'm talking about in the Hollywood world, right? Like, there was a video game. Bruckheimer bought the video game and hired Jordan was a wonderful guy to write the original script, then they hired another writer to rewrite Jordan's script. Then they brought me on to rewrite the third writers, the second writers script, I did a bunch of work on it, a couple of drafts and then went, I think this is what I got for you guys. And then they hired two other guys to come on a writing team to come on. And they wrote the rest of the way for like, the next year and a half. The movie comes out, and it's like six people have written on it. I guess they decided that what I did had enough of left in it to have a credit. And that's a credit that you have, you know, and it's interesting, because people say, Oh, you wrote Prince of Persia right now like, yeah, I mean, I guess, is there two words in that thing that I did I that, you know, I don't even think so. But that's what that particular machine is. You make money. You get residuals, you get health benefits. This is the reality, dude, this is the reality of being a writer. And you cannot fucking complain about that. I mean, how many jobs are there in this world? Other than these fucking Elan musk types, right. But how many jobs are there in this world that you work on something for a few months, you make hundreds of 1000s of dollars, you get health benefits? If it does, well, later, and ancillary markets, you keep getting checks every year for a few $1,000 that you Whoa, I didn't reach out to you pay by the you know, $20,000 for Prince of Persia came in five years later, right? fucking amazing, right? So it's a factory, it's a machine, you do it to make a living? And that's, you know, I'll never get another job again. I'm sure if any one of these people listen to this.

Alex Ferrari 57:43
Or maybe you'll get the right job?

Boaz Yakin 57:44
Oh, no, I think I think people know, I think this, which is why sometimes I have a hard time getting those jobs, you know, and care about the dog with the cake. He doesn't care about the dog with the K I don't, but I'll do a good job. If I have to do it. You know what I mean? And and, and that's the thing, look, you know, what can I say? No, I get it. So. So when you when you What was your involvement with now you see me without an original or that? You know, that's an example of a friend of mine, a very good friend who's become who's actually a great person to talk to, because he's a writers writer, my friend and record. It worked for like 10 years, and I didn't mentor him a bit and co wrote something I mentored him had a lot of years of not succeeding, a lot of years of not succeeding. And he had this idea for a script that at the time, I remember we were sitting in a car, and he called it something insane, like poof, or something like that. And he was like about four magicians who robbed a bank in Vegas. And in Paris from the stage in Vegas. I was like, Ed, the dumbest idea I've ever heard, right? Like, I was just like, don't bother me. There's no money. There's no money here. No, it was just utterly brutal, dark, personal film that I called Death and love about horrible family dynamics and stuff like that. And after I finished it, I was kind of in a place where I was like, holy shit, I don't know if I'll even know how to ever write another commercial script. Again, this is like a year later or something like that. And I was talking to Ed and Ed said, Boaz, I wrote the first 15 pages of the script. Fucking read it. Right. So I picked up Ed's first 15 pages. And I read them and I was like, ah, like, essentially, everything that now you see me became very successful, right. And second, moving on, is based on that first 15 pages of EDS, his concept. And I was like, Ed, this is a great idea. How did they do it? And he goes, and I was like, Oh shit. Like that, huh? And I was like, I guess I better get in here with you, right. And so I then got in with Ed and we basically fleshed it all out. But it was Ed's concept, right? And then I came in, and I helped him figure out how everything would work. And we came up with all the solutions, and then the theology and all that. And we wrote it. And in fact, it got sold. And it was interesting, because we had one of those moments where they finally after a few dot drafts, replaced us with someone else. And Ed was very upset, you know, he was hurt. And I was like, Ed, this means they might make the movie.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:48
And that's exactly it's like what I was telling you before, right until they hire someone else to rewrite you. That movie is not getting made. And, and they did, and they ended up making the movie. But Ed and I really created the concept, and the first draft and then they took it from there,

Did you because it's a pretty common did you go down the rabbit hole of magicians and how magicians do things like me?

Boaz Yakin 1:01:12
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. For the time that we wrote it. Absolutely.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:17
Did you interview that

Boaz Yakin 1:01:18
Expert, an expert on all that stuff? While we were writing?

Alex Ferrari 1:01:21
Do you call? Did you interview magicians? Did you talk to me? Just what kind of research did you do for that?

Boaz Yakin 1:01:26
Well, I mean, we do have the internet.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:30
There's that

Boaz Yakin 1:01:31
Which by the way, has made research a completely different experience than it used to be back in the day, when we had to go to library. He didn't call people, all that stuff, which was an interesting experience in and of itself, right? It was much slower, but in some ways richer. But yeah, there's the internet. And we also interviewed two or three magicians and blah, blah, blah, but you know, did our research.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:55
And of course, he took a couple trips to Vegas, obviously, just for research purposes.

Boaz Yakin 1:01:59
I think I've been to Vegas already. I don't know if we went there for that. But yeah.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:05
But right now that you've directed the phone call max. Again, I'm now I'm afraid to ask about any buildings, right? Is that is that a film that you were like, really passionate

Boaz Yakin 1:02:14
Massacre is a film actually that it, it was sort of like me, trying to make amends in a way for myself for how I felt when I was doing Titans. Whereas I also found myself again, in a position where I needed to make a movie, I had written a movie to sell with my friend, Sheldon, an old friend of mine, who loves dogs. And I had some idea about a dog. And I was like, he was like, Come on boys, we have to write this. And we wrote this movie, and sold it to MGM, I had no intention of directing it or anything, I sold it. And about a year later, I found myself needing to do something. And the producer had actually the producer called me up and asked me to take a look at the script that someone else had done some writing on and said, Well, what are your thoughts on it? And I read the script, and I read our draft. And I was like, you know, I think if we can go back to our draft, I know how to make this movie and make it appealing. And I call them and I said, Look, if you guys want me, I'll direct this. As long as we can go back to our script, did it? And they said yes. And I went, you know what, let me just try and have a good time work with some nice people and make some kind of an appealing movie. And for everyone, I can you tell everybody what Max is about the max is a movie about what they call an N WD a military working dog. So it's about a dog that gets traumatized in Iraq and gets his his handler killed. And then he gets adopted back into society by the family of the guy of the marine that was killed. So it's about a traumatized that dog who has to sort of like, get his shit together with his family that adopted him. So it's almost like an old school 5060s Disney kind of a movie those days those Disney movies had kind of an edge. You know, like when you watch Old Yeller or something like that. He just kill that bear like that. Those boards just Gordon. Wait, that kid just shot three walls like they don't do stuff like that. And I think we are at the end What the fuck? like wtf

Alex Ferrari 1:04:27
Soiler alert for everyone who hasn't seen all yellow?

Boaz Yakin 1:04:29
Yeah, spoiler that like family movies back in those days were like definitely a lot more hard bitten than they are now. And And anyway, so it was sort of like a callback to like those 50s kind of like Disney Disney family movies, the 50s just go back to the 80s.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:46
Remember, Neverending Story, or secret or man? \

Boaz Yakin 1:04:50
Which one?

Alex Ferrari 1:04:51
He could have named the animated dark blue film.

Boaz Yakin 1:04:53
Yeah, that was a little harsher.

Alex Ferrari 1:04:54
That was a little harsh and neverending story that killed the horse and you're like, I'm like Are you kidding? Like never. I mean, they're, they're freaking out about the Swedish chef right now on the Muppets. I mean, can you imagine

Boaz Yakin 1:05:07
Is that the character that they say is a negative stereotype? Why they put the disclaimer to the Swedish chef?

Alex Ferrari 1:05:14
Is the Swedish chef. Yeah. See the chef?

Boaz Yakin 1:05:17
Holy shit, man. I'm in let the as you get, but this is the one area where like, I'm like aligning with all these whiners about cancer, like come on people. act as if it's,

Alex Ferrari 1:05:32
I don't want to go into that conversation because that's not what you at a certain point, you just got to go look, movies were made at a certain time. shows were made at a certain time. Just have a conversation about it. And at that time, didn't look Can you can't even imagine. Like I was watching Clockwork Orange today. And the first 20 minutes of talk of words are in our insane, In. Insane. And I was remember, cuz I saw when I was a kid, and then I watched it again as an adult. And it just it just reminded me and like, first of all, what it seems Kubrick is obviously imagine a film like that being released today. You can't allow people to lose their collective mind over that.

Boaz Yakin 1:06:20
I mean, one of my favorite filmmakers of all time is Ralph Bakshi. You know, Ralph Bakshi?

Alex Ferrari 1:06:26
I don't.

Boaz Yakin 1:06:27
He made animated films back in the 70s. And he brought adult animation into the mainstream for a minute before he burnt they didn't let him keep going. But he made Fritz the Cat. It was the cat guy. Yeah, which was based on our crumb stuff, but the great movie, but it is based on our concept. Then he made two super personal movies that are I think that just some of the best films of the 70s. One of them is called heavy traffic. And one of them is an exploration of black politics and identity. He was Jewish, but black politics and identity called coonskin, which is so Roche's and one of the greatest animated films of all time, and you watch content, and try By the way, it ended his career then in the 70s. Although you may have to imagine now, can you imagine if someone made that film today, and it's a masterpiece, it's amazing. So it's a different time, you know, then hey, maybe it's okay for a minute to absorb that, you know, to absorb this different time, but it does make for a blender stew.

Alex Ferrari 1:07:36
Oh, there's, there's no your 70s 70s 60s 70s and 80s and 90s were much more interesting.

Boaz Yakin 1:07:43
Yeah. But by mid 80s, things started to go like

Alex Ferrari 1:07:48
compared to today, the 80s

Boaz Yakin 1:07:49
maybe my parents are dead, but yeah, but he's

Alex Ferrari 1:07:52
like the 60s.

Boaz Yakin 1:07:54
Like the 70s I have a by 8483 84 things were like, you know, starting to go down. I was just I was just you know, it was the kind of movies I was trying to write at the time that I was just literally watching like one of my friends and they like one of those you know, at HBO stations they have or whatever and you just flick through them and like Rambo First Blood Part Two came on. And like back in the 80s that was like actually an acceptable action movie. Like were you like, Oh, yeah, Rambo. He's fighting this. And you want it now and you're I literally with laughing out loud the entire time. I mean, it's it's a porn film. Basically. It's like just shiny greased up guy blowing apart hundreds of people and and just walking around it and you're just like, what am I even watching? What is this?

Alex Ferrari 1:08:51
If you want if you want to go down

Boaz Yakin 1:08:52
I really enjoyed it. I thoroughly enjoyed enough but I was like, it's a relic of a different time. a different mentality. a different perspective. Like it's actually surreal. The movie is actually surreal. And at the time, no one thought that

Alex Ferrari 1:09:10
I think Rambo was that there was that Rambo but then there's another film around the thing came up the same year even. That was even more than Rambo which is Commando.

Boaz Yakin 1:09:24
It came out after Rambo.

Alex Ferrari 1:09:25
Yeah, it came out. Yeah, around the same time. It was like a year or two different Yes, it came out afterwards. But commando is even more surreal. I mean, they literally have cardboard cutouts being blown up. In deceit.

Boaz Yakin 1:09:37
Oh, commandos. commandos, hilarious. I mean, on ramps that Rambo is a better movie in some notes, right?

Alex Ferrari 1:09:43
Rambo's the better.

Boaz Yakin 1:09:44
It was surreal. The 80s became absolutely surreal. kind of fun. Anyway,

Alex Ferrari 1:09:55
talking about the good old

Boaz Yakin 1:09:57
weird ass movies that you like, wow. We were actually trying to make those things back then and now you look at them and they're like, what is that?

Alex Ferrari 1:10:04
I remember when look when I was during that time in theory to the 80s, late 80s and early 90s I, you know, john Claude Van Damme. Steven Seagal did there was a greatest things ever for me. And I remember Bloodsport being show good and so revolutionary.

Boaz Yakin 1:10:20
The guy who wrote that as the guy wrote Max width my friend Sheldon.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:24
Oh, yeah. Oh, really? So Alright, so he wrote Bloodsport, right. I felt amazing appetite to Sheldon now. I gotta get. I gotta talk to

Boaz Yakin 1:10:34
Directed Lion Hart.

Alex Ferrari 1:10:36
Yeah, no, we I saw I spent I spent two months with Sheldon and john Claude in Hong Kong making doing rewrites on double impact. Okay, so now what do you see the writing this on your IMDb? I would be talking to you. Because I didn't get I was uncredited rewrite, but I was there. Okay, so you now Okay, so now See, see how the how the conversation has turned?

Boaz Yakin 1:10:58
Okay, so we're just gonna watch this. I'm telling anybody,

Alex Ferrari 1:11:07
Just as you make your movies for you, I make these interviews for me and if someone listens to them, fantastic. Alright. So you're in your Sheldon, here. That was a pair of Europe. Hong Kong making double effects. I remember going to the theater, seeing double impact and going. That makes all the sense. Absolutely not cost. What because jakab was that that was that? Was that a universe? That was a universe? Yeah. JOHN quad was in the studio system at that point. He hadn't left yet. He was he was working. I think it's Warner's or Sony or somebody like that. He was working. But that was a big. That was a big release. I remember that. That was what was it like being on that set? Because it was john Claude at the height of his powers. You know, and Sheldon had just done Lionheart was a huge hit for universal. Like, what was that? Like?

Boaz Yakin 1:11:56
I thought it was fun. I mean, basically, I was living in Paris. Remember, I told you I left the movie business. I was living in Paris. I was with my younger brother. He had just gotten super sick. It was winter. And Sheldon calls me up. And he's like bow, we're making double impact in at the time. I remember what was called was based on the Corsican brothers. This old Alexander Dumas story about these two twins, and they ended up updating it into Hong Kong and, and so that was like, and we could really use a few rewrites or whatever. Do you want to come to Hong Kong for a month and help us out? Right? And I was like, Eric, do you want to go to my brother? Do you want to go to Hong Kong for a month? And he's like, Yeah, what's the fuck out of here? And I was like, let's do it. So I was like, Yeah, man, let's go and they flew me into this hotel. This is before Hong Kong turned back to the Chinese. It was still a British protectorate or whatever it was called. And we just found ourselves hanging out with john Claude having dinner with bolo Yang from like, Enter the Dragon bow from Dragon. Yeah. having dinner with john Claude and bolo and bolos family and me and my brother. Were just like, Oh, my God. pinner with bolos is fucking insane. I mean, I had already known john Claude, right. Like I had been Sheldon and john Claude brought me in to help edit, re edit a movie called Cyborg, which was john Claude second. I was, like, total mess. And I cut my teeth editing, re edit, helping to re edit that movie. So I mean, I was friends. I was that was friends with those guys. And, and my brother and I spent a month, month and a half in Hong Kong. And just like, it was so much fun. We just like would write I would write a little bit in the morning, I go to that, like I try and do notes and I was there when they auditioned all this this stuntman and all this kind of and it was it was super fun. Like the culture clash of it all was super fun. I introduced Sean cloud the jungles movies, he had never seen one before. Nearly Yeah. Among amongst us guys. Like we had just seen. Better Tomorrow and a better tomorrow to I don't know if hard boil that come out yet. I mean, if the killer had come out yet, I don't think it had even come out yet. Maybe it was.

Alex Ferrari 1:14:15
That was later later. 80s.

Boaz Yakin 1:14:16
If certainly a better tomorrow and better tomorrow to had come out. And we were like john Claude, man, you've got to see this movie. And john cloud saw the movie and it's like, I have to shoot two gun. And that's why in double impact, there's a couple of couple of scenes where he's where he shoots to God, a great impression of a bah bah, bah, bah, what do you think of this idea? Bah, bah, bah. That was my conversations with john claddagh. Like, and it was super fun. It was super fun. It really was cool. So basically, your film school essentially was and why did they couldn't use what editing Cyborg that was a lot of my son's school. actually edit. So I've worked in clinics that was before and then Clint Eastwood

Alex Ferrari 1:15:03
Yeah. No cuz I remember editing, because I remember Cyborg and it was it was okay because I am. There's that there's a time a time period and die on the job on afficionado so there was Bloodsport, but before blisworth it was Black Eagle. Then came after Black Eagle, which he had a small part. Oh, no, no retreat, no surrender. Then he went into Cyborg and remember Cyborg? Yeah.

Boaz Yakin 1:15:23
You know. And by the way, I do have to take a little credit for this. He had just made Bloodsport. Yeah, we're super excited about him. Like, like cannon films, I think or whatever. And they made sideboard and it was such a complete and total it was visual, but it was such an utter mess. And they were going to basically just put it straight to video. Luckily, not straight to audio, right, but straight to video, and audio. And show them again, show them to john Claude said, Hey, do you want to take a look at this and I looked at it. And I was like, Guys, I had an idea if we can completely recut and restructure, and like re put like new dialogue on like scenes and data. And I just since it wasn't my movie, I just went in there and went crazy. I flipped the film, I reversed it. I turned it upside down and made sequences out of stuff that weren't sequences, and show them to john Claude to edit in the other room, and we were all just editing away. And then I

Alex Ferrari 1:16:25
John Claud was editing as well?

Boaz Yakin 1:16:27
Yeah, would show them in the room like composite, really smart dude. And, and, and we were at and we all like sort of re edited the movie, and I restructured it and they edit in the other room. Then I left they reshot a little ending. And they looked at it and they liked it so much. They put it in theaters. Mind you, it's not a classic. But it made money in the theaters. It made money and kind of saved john clods career. Like if that had gone straight to video as his second movie, he would have been in trouble. Instead, his second movie ended up getting a release, making a lot of money, and it just sort of took off from there. So I'm always very proud to have been part of helping john clods career stay afloat at a time when it looked a little a little shaky.

Alex Ferrari 1:17:10
It was a little bit and of course, as long as you have a split in there with I still remember that split between the two walls is a pain in the rain of good times during the 80s. Now, real quick, I wanted to ask you about your new project Bingo. called the harder they fall. Is there anything you could talk a little bit about no J visa, a producer with Lauren's on that?

Boaz Yakin 1:17:36
Yeah, what my mind and my friend James Samuel, who was a mutant comes from music, mostly, you know, he's a songwriter. And he, he directed a couple of shorts, a couple of his own videos. And he had this concept for this Western that he'd been trying to make for years. And he asked me to help him with rewrite it. He had, he had written the original drafts. And it was filled with great ideas, but a bit unruly or quite unruly. And I basically helped kind of pare it into something that I think was more like Mabel. And James then came in and rewrote on that. So we wrote, ended up writing that script together, based on his concept and the end, and they made it and they just shot it, it's, it's going to come out on Netflix at some points, great cast. And yeah, it's an all African American spaghetti western, basically. But it's going to have like a lot of music and all and he definitely has a vision and a style. And yeah, he just did. He directed it. And he it's a huge budget first directorial film, I mean, unbelievable. But again, taking those kind of chances. They're taking those kinds of risks. And I imagine it'll be fun. That's awesome.

Alex Ferrari 1:19:01
That's very awesome. I'm gonna ask you a few questions. I asked all of my guests. What is the biggest mistake you see young screenwriters make?

Boaz Yakin 1:19:12
Interesting, I mean, I'm gonna kind of not answer that question. Just in the sense, just in the sense. I don't tend to really focus on screenwriting in my ingestion of movies. I tend to think of it I think, filmmakers, you know, I tend to think that filmmakers I never know when I see a screenwriters name on a movie, how much of their voices in the movie or not?

Alex Ferrari 1:19:42
Or let me, let me rephrase the question. What were some of the biggest mistakes you made when you were first starting out at this?

Boaz Yakin 1:19:49
Well, nothing's a mistake you're learning. Okay, you know,

Alex Ferrari 1:19:56
you need to go through so you're basically saying we got to go through some of these hardships in order Democrats, you got to cut.

Boaz Yakin 1:20:01
Yeah, you're learning. I mean, you know, your process as a human being is filled with self imposed barriers, externally imposed barriers, some of which you cross, some of which you don't, you know, there's no mistake, right? Like, you know, like I could say, you know what, when you're writing a Hollywood movie, it's a mistake to take anything personal. Right? But it's not a mistake. You just have to go through that experience. Get your ass beat, and then somehow come out of it as either as a human being who can absorb that with a thicker skin or a deeper capacity to like, handle things or not. But there's no mistake in it. It's It's It's just the process.

Alex Ferrari 1:20:50
It's a great and I answer I love it.

Boaz Yakin 1:20:53
That's, that's my answer for your question

Alex Ferrari 1:20:55
What are the three screenplays that every screenwriter should?

Boaz Yakin 1:21:01
Wow, again, I don't really read scripts. I see films, right. Three well written films. Oh my god, there's so many well written sounds. Just pick three that comes to your head. Three well written films Ingmar Bergman's persona, yep. Mr. Bergman's scenes from a marriage, especially and winter, like, biting my bird. So, if there's another word that you want to see anything with a really well written script, watch a Bergman movie. That's my advice.

Alex Ferrari 1:21:46
Now, what advice would you give a screenwriter wanting to break into the business today?

Boaz Yakin 1:21:53
I have no advice. Make a move.

Alex Ferrari 1:21:56
Because it just don't make something write something make.

Boaz Yakin 1:21:58
Make a fucking movie. I mean, are you know, I don't know. I have no idea. I have no idea.

Alex Ferrari 1:22:06
World is so different. Now. It's just

Boaz Yakin 1:22:07
it's so different from like, I mean, I'm still trying to stay afloat in the business, right? That's a different thing. It's like trying to stay afloat. And I feel like I'm trying to reinvent the wheel for myself everyday. That's the thing that you mentioned before, when we that's what's so crazy is that, like, I've been doing this for so long. And every time I finish something, or whatever, I feel like I'm never gonna work again. Yeah, and sometimes, you know, like, right now I'm kind of in that zone, where I'm like, Oh, shit, am I ever gonna get another job? Like, Oh, my God, am I ever gonna make another trip like, and then one day you find yourself making something, whatever you're like, holy shit, I can't believe that happened. Like, I've always been really jealous of people that just seem to work, and treat it like a job. Because I always think it's a miracle every time I get a job, or every time I make a film. I'm always in shock. I'm always in shock, you know, but in terms of how you get in now, it's a totally different world.

Alex Ferrari 1:23:02
And what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business

Boaz Yakin 1:23:05
Oh, my gosh. gratitude.

Alex Ferrari 1:23:13
Yeah. grateful for everything.

Boaz Yakin 1:23:18
Gratitude to God, the Creator, the universe, whatever you want to call it, for being a part of it. Not taking things personally, no matter what it is. Understanding that nothing in this universe is personal, even if it might seem like it is. That's been the hardest. And the most important lesson for me

Alex Ferrari 1:23:39
I can I know I can keep talking to you for a long time, at least three, four hours, but I want to respect your time, and I do appreciate you.

Boaz Yakin 1:23:47
Thanks for having me, man. It was fun to talk to you.

Alex Ferrari 1:23:49
It was an absolute pleasure talking to you, man. So thanks again,

Boaz Yakin 1:23:52
down the rabbit hole of disappear.

Alex Ferrari 1:23:58
I want to thank Boaz for coming on the show and dropping his truthful knowledge bombs on the tribe today. Thank you so much, guys. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show notes at bulletproof screenwriting.tv forward slash 114. And if you haven't already, please head over to screenwriting podcast calm and leave a good review and subscribe to the show. It really helps us out a lot. Thank you so much for listening, guys. As always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon.


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