BPS 082: The Indie Film Screenwriting Process with Joshua Caldwell

Today on the show we have writer/director Joshua Caldwell. Joshua has been on the Indie Film Hustle Podcast three times before and all his episodes went viral.

Joshua and I discuss what it takes to write an indie film, how you need to change your mindset, and how to best position it to actually get produced. His latest film is INFAMOUS starring Bella Thorne, Jake Manley, Amber Riley.

His first feature film was Layover (available on IFHTV), a $6000 micro-budget film he wrote and directed.

In this French-language feature film debut from writer/director Joshua Caldwell, Simone (Nathalie Fay) is a young Parisian en route to her wedding in Singapore. But when the airline cancels her connecting flight, she’s forced to spend the night in Los Angeles. She decides to make the best of it and contact an old acquaintance, Juliette (Bella Dayne), who is going through a rough patch in her marriage. Invigorated by her friend’s arrival, Juliette insists on taking Simone out for a night of club-hopping.

With little regard for her friend, Juliette soon disappears with a stranger, leaving Simone stranded downtown without a ride. When an attractive motorcyclist (Karl E. Landler) appears and offers her a ride, Simone cautiously accepts, leading to an evening of adventure that results in her questioning her life’s direction and, ultimately, if she’s truly ready to make her connection in the morning.

Enjoy my conversation with Joshua Caldwell.

Right-click here to download the MP3



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Alex Ferrari 0:49
I'd like to welcome the show Joshua Caldwell, man, how you doing, brother?

Joshua Caldwell 4:00
Good, how are you?

Alex Ferrari 4:01
I'm good, man. I'm good. You are a returning champion on the indie film hustle podcast, but this is the first appearance or sample of the bulletproof screenwriting podcast, and it was I thought it would be very interesting to have you come on. From your, your background in the industry, it's, I think you have a very unique perspective. So for the audience who don't know who you are, sir, can you tell us a little bit about how you got into the business?

Joshua Caldwell 4:30
Yeah. I'm a writer, director, producer. And I started making films when I was younger in high school. And ended up going to Fordham University in New York City where I studied, I didn't study film, I just kind of started making movies on my own. And one of those movies was a short film called The beautiful lie, which I got nominated for one and MTV Movie Award. Golden popcorn back in 2006. And that kind of kicked off my desire to move to Hollywood because it is I was going to you know, and I basically was like, Alright, now I gotta move to LA and I'm gonna be the shit. And I'm gonna be like the big they're gonna give you the key today, because you have the golden, the golden, the golden block. I mean, obviously, everybody saw it. And that didn't happen. And, you know, so I started writing scripts and trying to meet people. And I eventually interned and then eventually landed a job at working for Anthony zeichor, created CSI. And I worked for him for a couple years as an exec and then started directing on my own. And I've been directing, basically writing directing since 2013.

Alex Ferrari 5:36
So the lesson of that story is that the golden popcorn does not open the doors that you might have thought it

Joshua Caldwell 5:41
open. Yes, exactly. Does that

Alex Ferrari 5:45
I actually I'm actually not. It's not

Joshua Caldwell 5:50
a here's the thing. You know, it was one of those things where you think you get this thing you go, you're on the MTV Movie Award? Oh, yeah. On the MTV awards, right. And of course, like in the press release, they leave off your category. And so nobody really knows I got so much. I got like, not so much. I got some interest from managers and stuff, when they announced the nominees, because if there was a big announcement in The Hollywood Reporter variety, or something like that, and I was actually listed there, but then when they announced the winners, and they had the winners, press release, they didn't put that category in. And like the thing is about the Movie Awards is it's hilarious because you've got, you know, you win Best kiss, like who gives a fuck, you know, like, you win. You win. Best Movie. Who cares? Nobody cares. It's like a popularity contest. But like, I was this kid just out of college. Yeah, I

Alex Ferrari 6:43
was gonna say I must have been a kid. Yeah.

Joshua Caldwell 6:45
Like, and you get a thing for Best Film on campus. best student film. You know, it's like you think it's like a cool big deal. Oh, my

Alex Ferrari 6:54
God, I couldn't even imagine. What would have happened to my head. Oh, I got it. Oh, look at that. Look at that. 2000 I'm gonna put that right next to, to my blockbuster award. Yeah. choice. People. Now listen deeply before People's Choice Awards a little bit grander. Yeah, exactly. But it doesn't open the doors that it used to sir. Right. Right.

Joshua Caldwell 7:28
Exactly. So but, you know, I, what I talked about, I've talked about this with some people, I don't know as much anymore. But it was, it was, it was such a great lesson in humility. Because you, you come out, you think you're gonna be the hot shit. You're not. And so very quickly, like, very immediately, I was like, okay, like, I could, you know, just because I want this thing, it doesn't mean anything. And the only thing that's gonna get me somewhere is the work, you know, and so that I really, I put the popcorn, I like kind of pissed off, but I put it under my bed, like, wrapped it up. It was like, fuck this thing. And then, but you know, and then really started just hustling and working my way up and trying to get what I could, and just never put myself in a position where I was, I was relying on accolades. So it's a very good lesson early on to say, like, none of that matters. And, and I was bitter about it for a while, because I was like, Well, something should have happened, you know, something should have something should have happened. And I did get a manager out of it for a while, like a junior manager, who's a great guy, but still, at the end of the day, you just feel like, you know, I was a little bitter about it. And then over time, I started seeing, okay, well, like, that doesn't matter, you know, and you start to turn over and go, Well, what is success? What's the goal? What do you want to be doing? And it takes 10 years but eventually get to that place where the success is doing the work, you know, it's not whatever that response to the work ends up being because you can't control that all you can control is what you're doing which is either writing or directing or whatever it is that your your thing is, you know, but yeah, so I made it guy got the Movie Award, it was really cool at the time, but then really I came out to LA I moved out to LA and I just started you know crank and I just started trying to take whatever I could and get whatever I could doing music videos and writing scripts and writing script after script and you know, getting one option and then not going anywhere and kind of doing the whole the whole thing for a long time.

Alex Ferrari 9:29
So getting it an option and then that being produced that's a that's a rarity in Hollywood. Obviously that doesn't happen very often. That you get the option and it doesn't get produced. Are they exempt?

Joshua Caldwell 9:39
Yeah, well, I didn't pay money for it. So

Alex Ferrari 9:41
Oh, that's alright, so this let's go let's do

Joshua Caldwell 9:46
Oh, yeah, con. Okay. They it was it was it was one of those. I didn't I didn't necessarily mind it because it didn't feel predatory. Sure, it was with it was with Todd Comber Nikki who produced. What else? Okay, well, and like really great guy like really knows his stuff like his big, you know, as a friend now and, and that kind of thing. But it was just one of those things where it was like, oh, and then the other the other great thing about all of this was literally moved out to LA, October 2006. And at boom, writer strike, and it just completely changed everything in Hollywood. And we were trying to get stuff made after that, you know, and it was like, this was one of those movies it was, I'm gonna put it out there because maybe somebody will want it, but it was called glory days of Chet steel. And for anybody that's seen my movies, this is gonna be also out there. But it was the second movie wrote my writing partner at the time. And I and basically, the story is, it's about this guy named Chet steel, who in high school was a hot shot quarterback, right. He was like one of the best High School quarterbacks in Texas, and 20 years later, he's the bum sitting up in the stands, you know, loser, typical formula, right? But then what happens is, he finds out this new hot shot quarterback named Cody powers, is going to courses is on track to beat his all time passing record. And what Chet doesn't understand is that his record is not a permanent record. He doesn't understand that it can't, somebody can't come in and beat it. And when he finds that out, his whole world gets shattered. And basically, through a loophole, the No Child Left Behind Act, he's able to go back to school, because he didn't graduate to a good app to high school rejoins the football team, at 40 years old. And now of course, the team sucks. And so he has to get them better in order to protect his record. And along the way, he learns the importance of teamwork. And,

Alex Ferrari 11:55
of course, of course,

Joshua Caldwell 11:56
oh, that's just just our pitch was its Will Ferrell and shoulder pads pads playing football with college with high school kids, you know, and the thing about it was we wrote it. So specifically that everyone that read it was like, Well, unless you get Will Ferrell, there's no way to make, like, no, there's other people that could do this. Like

Alex Ferrari 12:14
that actually would be a funny Will Ferrell film, I have to admit,

Joshua Caldwell 12:18
it will be hard. Todd, the thing was, we thought, okay, like, Look, maybe they'd give us a couple grand, you know, for an option. Who cares? Like, I got the experience of working with Todd on node rewrite, working with a real producer. And also like he had made a movie with will, you know, we're successful. So probably the best chance we have. But of course, the problem that we ran into was post writer's strike. It just disrupted everything. And so everyone was like, Well, if you don't, it was the age old thing. But it was even harder now. Which was like, Well, if you don't have an actor, you can't go after well, until you have money. You can't go after money until you have an actor. Nobody wants to touch it. So ended up dying, unfortunately. But that was like one of our second experiences. And

Alex Ferrari 13:01
so what was your How did you get your first paid writing gig?

Joshua Caldwell 13:06
What was my first paid writing yet? trying to remember. I think it was actually more recently. Let me think about this. I've had I just had a weird I've had a weird career. I've never, I've only sold technically one script, which was infamous. And that's to the producers, basically. Because I'm not a spec writer. Right now. Like, I'm not going out and just writing spec after spec up to spec trying to get a soul we did. I used to what was my first paid thing, trying to think? I don't think I made very much even if it was something Oh, you know what it was like kind of in, I think it was in 2000. As a writer, I got paid to, like, nothing money to try and adapt a graphic novel. Okay, which didn't end up going anywhere. And probably rightfully so, because I wasn't quite right for it. But it was like that, if you want to know how that came about that came about from, you know, I recently signed with CAA. So this was in 2016. So yeah, 2016 I mean, you know, 10 years before I really got my first job, you know, first paid thing as a writer.

Alex Ferrari 14:21
So that's how you got it. And that's how did you get the attention of CAA?

Joshua Caldwell 14:26
So, well, it's almost like you got to go all the way back to the beginning. But basically, I'd had a manager for a while and went through, you know, script after script and short after short, and eventually, you know, I started I did a couple shorts, I got some experience and then really, it was the thing that really kicked off my career was layover. layover was the thing that started everything. You know, in 2010. I made a short film called Digg, which I still think is some of my best work but It was like 26 minutes long, you know, and it just never went anywhere in terms of in terms of festivals, you know, never got me anything, but it was a great experience. I spent, you know, cost like 40 grand and make it. I've been there, but it was period, you know, and you want to good actors and whatever you want in five days of shooting. So I, you know, basically did that. And then I made a $6,000 wrench in the movie with no stars. And that's the thing, that guy has gotten me every job.

Alex Ferrari 15:32
Okay, so that's okay. So because we and I'll put that in the show notes. You know, you've done about, you've done two episodes that have aired. Yeah, that aired on on indie film hustle. The first one was about layover, which was basically a $6,000. Now that we've done three, the third one hasn't released yet. Yeah, correct. Yeah. So layover was a $6,000 feature. And that's how we met originally. Because I'm always fascinated by low budget micro budget films that actually are successful in one way, shape, or form.

Joshua Caldwell 16:02
Still, I still don't know how.

Alex Ferrari 16:05
So? I don't know. So you wrote that, but you wrote it. You translated it all in French.

Joshua Caldwell 16:11
Yeah. So I wrote it. I wrote in English. And, you know, I'd written with a partner for years, you know, I came out because I always felt like I was a writer who I was, I felt like it was a director who wrote, as opposed to a writer who directed and I liked the idea of working with a partner. But like anybody, you start to get niche, you start to go maybe, you know, maybe this I'd want to write on my own or, or, you know, maybe I want to try something and layover was the first thing, right, I kind of went into it going, I'm just gonna start. And then if I peter out after 30 pages, then don't bring someone else in, you know. But I just basically sat down and pounded it out. You know, I did it in about two weeks, and it just kept going. And that was a weird because I sort of knew the beginning and the end, but the middle I kind of made up like the whole concept of the motorcyclist just came out of nowhere. I was like, she's just going to meet a guy. And then I'm writing right around like, oh, what if he's on a motorcycle? What if it's this? What if it's this, you know, and, and that skipped script, the first draft of it really came together? by actually typing it not typing up outlines, and all that kind of stuff. But I wrote it all in English. And then Carl landler, who plays the motorcyclist, who's from Paris, he basically did all the translation from the script, which is why in the movie I gave him I gave him credit, as Translation by, you know, on the same card as my, I think on the same card as my screenwriting credit. So I felt like he was so contributive I mean, you know, it's like a whole other language, not just like,

Alex Ferrari 17:40
literally, literally a whole other language, literally.

Joshua Caldwell 17:44
It's a completely different language than English. So no, but what I'm saying is not it's not like you're just going to Google Translate and typing it in.

Alex Ferrari 17:53
No, you gotta, there's nuances. Of course, yeah,

Joshua Caldwell 17:54
there's watches and they're sayings that don't exist that in French that are in English, you know, to make it work,

Alex Ferrari 18:01
so so I don't think I've ever asked you this. Why the French?

Joshua Caldwell 18:09
Okay, so, a couple years prior, there was a movie. What was it called? I think it was Maria, full of grace. Yeah. And basically, I remember every single article about that movie was about the fact that the director did not speak Spanish. And did a movie in Spanish. Right, right. Did you? Look, you're looking for that hook?

Alex Ferrari 18:36
Yeah. It's something you were trying to do what you were trying to set up.

Joshua Caldwell 18:40
You were setting Brando longer beta movie. You know, nobody cares, a movie. So I just that was that stuck in my head? I was also, you know, look, I mean, layover is largely modeled after a French New Wave approach to filmmaking, right. But the other thing that's stuck with me was just this notion that so often, when you see a Foreign Language Film, it's because it's set in the country where the language is spoken. And I just thought it'd be really interesting to see a Foreign Language Film that's set in America. And would that, would that tweak somebody? Would that tweak somebody into LA and their understanding of La if it's seen through the eyes of somebody that not only doesn't isn't familiar with the city, but doesn't even speak the language. And so I just like the idea, all those things combined with the idea that for me from a character perspective, the story of a girl traveling from New York to Singapore, and she gets stuck over in LA is not that interesting. It's not that hard to find your way around LA and know what to do and know what's going on when you speak English. But if you don't speak the language at all, it can be extremely confusing place to anybody who has ever gone to a different country. You know, you don't know the customs. You don't have language. You don't know what people are saying you Don't know what things are. And I just thought that would be a really interesting obstacle. You know, that would prevent certain things from happening, that would be really easy to happen if she spoke English, right? It's like, Oh, I'm stuck in stuck in the city for a night. All right, I'm gonna veg out and watch TV. Like, you know, it's, it's the second city and and then she goes out with a friend, the friend speaks English, but she doesn't speak English. And then once she loses the friend, she meets a guy who speaks French, and she feels Well, I don't I don't know what's going on. Like, you know, my big thing was whether people are going to buy into her going with the guy, but Carl is really charming. So

Alex Ferrari 20:36
and this also suspense of disbelief is

Joshua Caldwell 20:38
expensive to believe. But the fact that she speaks French and she meets a guy that speaks French, there's an instant comfort level

Alex Ferrari 20:45
Sure, of course,

Joshua Caldwell 20:46
right? It she goes with them in a way that she probably wouldn't. If she was like, you know, an American she meet another guy that spoke American it would just be like weird, you know? So that just felt like a really interesting way into it. So there were a number of reasons.

Alex Ferrari 20:59
All right, so that movie when you made that movie for six grand, you were able to you I think if you did get distribution for the film, and you made money with the film, is that the film that got UCA?

Joshua Caldwell 21:11
No. So layover got me another movie. First of all layover got me a series on Hulu that I just directed. I didn't write it, but called South Beach. So I directed that next. And then layover combined with the Hulu show. Got me a movie called be somebody which was this made by this company called Studio 71. Which they had another name before I forget what it was, but anyway, and they, I pitched on it. I went in and pitched on it. And because I needed money basically, and, and got the job. And it was an influencer movie that started this guy named Matt Espinosa who had like 20 million followers online and never been in a movie for this movie kind of the script was from like the mid 90s. And it had been kind of updated and refashioned. But then one of the things about that. And again, like it's weird, because so often people talk about well, I sold this script, right? Or I got paid to write this script. But like I've written on every script that every project I've made, you know, I did writing on the Hulu show, I didn't get credit for it. I didn't get paid for it. Be somebody was a mess. Like what happened was, I got pulled onto it. And then I do a rewrite on the script I do I if I can I rewrite every script that I direct because it's how I get my fingers into it until I get to know it. And then I got to put my own thing onto it. So far, I'm sure that won't happen when some huge writers, you know,

Alex Ferrari 22:46
when you when you when you have you to marvel when you're working for Marvel, certain not so much with the rewrites. Yeah,

Joshua Caldwell 22:51
yeah, exactly. Although maybe, who knows. But the point is, I felt I felt compelled to do it. But this one was like it needed to be done. I mean, it was already too long. The writer was not involved anymore. And but it was 109 pages when I got it. They were like, We need to cut it. I'm like, yeah, so I cut 16 pages out of it, to bring it down to 94. And so then I give it to them, and they come back. And they're like, yeah, so we just did a budget on your script. And it seems like we're like $200,000 over what we want to be. And I go What was the budget on the other draft?

Alex Ferrari 23:29
Was 16 pages more?

Joshua Caldwell 23:31
Yeah. And they go, Oh, we didn't do one. So they never did a budget, they greenlit a movie without doing a budget and budgeting the script. And then I had basically and then I got this script that was still 200 over. And they're like, well, we got to make all these changes. And they're like, Can we cut this? And I'm like, Well, if you cut that you have no ending. So then what's the movie about? Like, what's the whole point of the movie. So they literally for like a couple weeks, up until we started shooting me and this other exact at the company, we're basically rewriting it from scratch. I mean, we literally started over and we knew we had these characters, because we already cast it these locations because we were already scouting. And so the biggest my biggest regret over that movie was basically we ended up shooting effectively the first draft of like a new script. And if you watch the movie, you see that there are like repeated, like lines of dialogue and things that come up like when normally you do have gone through and been like, Oh wait, we already we already did this part, you know. And but it was it was writing under duress. And it was basically a real interesting experience. Because you're like, you got to go movie for a job. Right? Right. You want to make it happen. I was also trying to start I had just closed a deal to do negative. And so I didn't want to push this movie, you know? But and so you're just like, I mean, literally the weekend of Thanksgiving. I was out here in New York, but I was down in my in laws basement like typing up drafts of the script and sending it off to the producer. Like every scene, we just send off a new scene to the producer. And so, you know, I think like, clear, it was clear to me that this was not the way the best way to make movies, you know, and I got really tired.

But for all my problems with that movie, one there, I think it really speaks to a certain age group of, especially girls that I've heard from repeatedly that said, Oh, we love you know, I love B, somebody taught me so much about this. And I love seeing, like the multiracial family. And, you know, you get a lot of feedback about the things that we chose to do in that movie that makes you feel like okay, at least somebody's taking something from this, you know, but the other thing and then the other thing was that that movie because it ended up getting bought and released by Paramount. Got BCAA.

Alex Ferrari 25:46
Got it. And then there you go

Joshua Caldwell 25:48
in conjunction with everything else that I was doing, right, I'd done a Hulu, I'd done this.

Alex Ferrari 25:52
Yeah, sure. You build, you build and build and build. And I think

Joshua Caldwell 25:56
it happened was also really quick that the other thing was when I left zonkers. I also left my current my Venn manager, because it just wasn't working out. Like he wanted to go, he was doing other stuff. And it wasn't I was feeling I was hit pocketed. So as soon as I left, I also started looking for a new manager. And I got introduced to my current manager, Tom sprigs. So he came he, he, I signed with him in 2013, right after I left, you know, right after I left psykers. And then that was a conversation we were having, which was about agents and I kind of basically, you know, as much as I wanted one, I was also starting to get to that place where I said, You know what, like, if this like, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna even entertain the idea of an agent until they want me. Because if it's, if I want them, then I'm always in that position of like, need and, you know, desire, right, like, and they know that

Alex Ferrari 26:51
you're in a weaker state, you're in a weaker, you're in a weaker position.

Joshua Caldwell 26:54
And if I just keep doing what I'm doing, eventually, they're gonna find me. And they're gonna say we, you know, we'd like to see, but after be somebody, I was just like I said to Tom, I'm like, you think now maybe we should start thinking about an agent, because like, I've got, I've done three movies. Now I've got signing deals, like I did a show for Hulu, like, you know, maybe it's time and he said, Yeah, so we went out to a couple places, but CAA was always the top of the list, because I had a lot of relationships there from working with zeichor, because he was rep there. So funny enough, like my agent, one of my agents. Now Frank Chung, was the guy that I knew well, from my time at psykers, doing stuff in the digital world.

Alex Ferrari 27:28
So So I think this is a really good point to bring up for the audience to understand about managers and agents, because there isn't this kind of myth out there that all I need to do is get a manager and or an agent, and I'm good, they're gonna go out, they're going to get me work, I'm going to get paid, they're going to pitch me they're going to sound good. They're going to sell my scripts, I'm going to get the lottery ticket million dollar buy, like, you know, Shane Black used to do back in the 90s. And more. Yeah, and just like a bidding wars, and it's just your house. And it's all this kind of stuff, right? But But the reality is, or, which is where you kind of just put out is that you shouldn't, first of all, no agents going to be interested in to you in you until you are able to generate revenue for them. Right. So you are perfect example, before these three projects that you did, or three or four projects you had done. You had no true value to an agency because you weren't going to be able to generate revenue for them. So once you got like, Oh, this guy, this is this is a horse that's can can win a couple races. That's basically Yeah, it's it's as crass as that is your basic Nami. Livestock, you're just like, yeah, creative life stock.

Joshua Caldwell 28:39
Because sometimes, you know, and I also didn't have, I didn't have some, like, spec script that people were flipping over, right, which is what it used to be to, like, you wrote a spec script that everybody was enamored with, and you'd have everybody calling you, but I didn't I didn't have that. And yeah, so you're just like, you know, look, the other thing is that it's a transaction, you know, and the thing is, not only is it about well, what do you have? What did you have? Right? Okay, great. Like, the thing is great. He made a movie, so he can demonstrate that he's got value. But what else does he have? What's next? Right? Oh, what everyone's gonna ask anyway. So always What's next? You know, and it was interesting, because I, when I was going out for managers, I met with a couple people. And there was one guy who wrote, you know, who got back to me. And I remember just being like, I sat down with them. And his whole thing was just like, you know, look, this is really hard, man. Like, really tough. It's gonna be what, you know, just this stuff. And I remember coming out of that going, like, I know, it's hard. Like, the amount of calories. I'm not kidding. The question is, what are we going to be doing to try and do what we can do? I don't care if it's hard, you know, but I just recognize that attitude, you know, versus somebody saying, Look, it's not gonna be easy, but I have ideas. I people we could set you up with like, you clearly are demonstrating an ability to make low budget movies, which you know, or spend very little money, which people are going to be attracted to. And we work your way up, you know, but I, I think that like, anytime I do look, and I'm guilty of this, too, having not now been through it, I also think that if you're, if you are asking the question, How do I get an agent or a manager? You're not ready for an agent or manager?

Alex Ferrari 30:25
Exactly. If you've got to ask the question, then you're not ready for this question. You just

Joshua Caldwell 30:28
not ready for it. And that's fine. But like, if you're asking that question, that's a sign that now is not the time, you know, that you've got more work to do. You got more connections to make, you gotta get your material out there. I mean, you know, even when I had a manager, like, right after the movie award, and like, up until 2018, right, like he was, he's a great guy, I love him, but he wasn't able to do a lot for me, you know, I mean, he get us in for some meetings. You know, I remember that we one one opportunity I had that actually came out of this was I had this, I met this guy. And I've come to now think that his story is completely bullshit. But at the time, I thought it was true. Which was he told me this story about how he was like, this is really like kind of secret agent, basically just a little guy. Sure. Now a hairdresser in LA, by the way. So it says there's no honey, it's the Zohan, it's the exact as it's like, got it is really, really crazy story. And it's just like, Man, this is a great idea for a script. And if we could call it a true story, then that's great. So I had this idea I wrote, I wrote up like a sort of a pitch or whatever. And we actually went into we went into participant media. And they so and this is a thing that happens too. And I have to say, like, I was okay with it. But what happened was, we actually like went in there, and it was me and a writing partner. And we said, well, we have this idea. And they said, We like it, we're not gonna buy it or option it with you, but we'll develop it with you. And I said, All right. Like, I'm a young writer, I've got a job as an executive. So I probably shouldn't even be pitching. Right, but the opportunity and we retain the copyright. So we, you know, you guys haven't bought it, you're not paying money for it, you're helping us develop it. But we get, we made that clear, like we retain free use of the script if you guys decide not to do it. And we bought and we we spent like a couple years, like developing this script. And I'm sure it was a learning lead.

Alex Ferrari 32:30
It was just, it was just, it was cool.

Joshua Caldwell 32:32
Yeah. And that's the thing is like, you get to get in and sit in a room with an exec that knows his shit. And you're just storyboarding, and you're not storyboarding, but you're just putting down story and coming up with ideas. And then you got to go away to do the work. So it's like such a, it was such a great exercise, even though the script didn't end up selling, and they didn't end up doing it. It was such a great experience having that because you don't really get it, you know, so often writers are just there, they're off in their room, you know, doing nothing, or not doing nothing, they're off in their room alone writing. And you might get feedback, you might not get feedback, but we had, like, you know, the goal was to get it to a place where they would buy it. You know, it wasn't like, let's just get it. So it's good. It's like, let's get it so it's in a place where we can buy this. We get there. It was a challenging story. And you know, I'd probably make back my own ideas about I would change it but

Alex Ferrari 33:20
but you need to you need to call Adam Sandler's people because he obviously stole the idea with four don't mess with this. Oh,

Joshua Caldwell 33:26
it was a drama. Probably. The guy probably met Sam at some point and told him the story. And Sandra was like, we're gonna I mean,

Alex Ferrari 33:33
oh, yeah. And I'm gonna eat a lot of hummus. And that's just the way it is. Yeah. All right. So let me know.

Joshua Caldwell 33:40
But that was something that I came up with the idea. I told my manager about it. He pitched participant he got us in the room, you know. And so that's an example of something happening, but it wasn't like, Oh, they bought the script. I sold the script,

Alex Ferrari 33:51
or it's just so I mean, I just want i and that's what I try to do on the show, man. There's so many myths out there first, especially for young screenwriters, or, you know, you know, people who are new to the business, who just, they think that the business runs in a certain way, and it just doesn't and they don't understand. And I'm not trying to be a killjoy, but the difficulty of no yeah, getting something actually produced and getting credit for that. And it's just this. It's just this, it's so difficult to do. And it's not possible. And I don't want to be that guy that you were talking about, like, Oh, it's just really hard. It is. It's super hard. No question about it. It's probably one of the toughest things to do on the planet. But, but one thing I love about you is that you've been able to create your own projects, and you are able to produce your own things. Which brings me to my next question, do you recommend young screenwriters are screenwriters starting out to write a low budget option for a screenplay that they could either produce themselves as the director or partner with some One who could produce it at a budget of 10,000 15,000. right to say that they have a produce script of produced film? And is that actually have value in the marketplace as a screenwriter?

Joshua Caldwell 35:13
It's a good question because I'm, I like three things about it. And two are two sides of the same coin, which is, I think, I think that the more you as a writer can get produced. And of course, that's the goal. But I'm saying even if it's a student film, a short, anything, the more experience you have seen your work turned into a movie, the better you will be as a writer, because when you write, man falls out of a window, you have no concept of the take soul shit that is going to go into getting that on film. And, and so you have done an understanding of Oh, this one line is a million dollar stunt. Right? Like I had a great, great, great example of this was when we were doing the glory days thing, right? We had written this scene, it was a half page scene. And it was Chet was out with the friends and it was part of a montage. But the idea was they were out at a burger restaurant. They're all laughing and having fun together clearly becoming friends. Right? And I remember, I remember the producer, Todd was like, Look, man, like this. That's like a half day shooting. That's a company move. And so what is it doing? Like he wasn't being mean about it? He was just like, what is the scene contributing to the movie that we don't already know? And does it have to happen at this location? Right? Because that's a half day of shooting. That's a company move. That's this much. And you're going Oh, yeah, like, You're right. I wasn't thinking about that when I wrote it. Because you're not thinking about that stuff. Traditionally, when you're a writer, but when you have the experience of seeing what it takes to not only bring what you wrote to life, but to see the level of collaboration that ends up going into that, right, the way in which actors come in with their own ideas that might be different than when you thought the director comes in with a different idea than what what you thought, like, the understanding that you need to be not only okay with it, but work with that, you know, to get the best out of what you can, like that experience is invaluable. So that I think the more writers can see their work produced, whether it's a workshop, whether it's just like a table read, like hearing actors say their lines, seeing what it takes to bring something to life is super important. The other side of it is like, the question is, as a writer, as solely as a screenwriter, how much value do you get out of a, say sub $100,000? budget movie? I'm not, I'm not convinced there is that much. Because basically, they just tend to be small dramas, maybe if you wrote a sci fi, right? Like some people don't really want an action, or an action,

Alex Ferrari 38:05
you know, or obviously horror?

Joshua Caldwell 38:06
Yeah. It might. It's possible, I can say that if it's under $100,000 Drama, it's probably not valuable. Oh,

Alex Ferrari 38:14
no genre, if it's, if it's a $3 million drama is gonna generally not be valuable. barrels in it.

Joshua Caldwell 38:22
You know, like, I think of somebody, just some separate writer had written layover, it wouldn't have done anything for them. You know, I just don't think anybody said, Oh, this guy can write something. But because I was a writer, director, it changed the conversation. The other side of it, is that, you more than that, what you said, living in that genre world? And the idea that you also are that a produce screenwriter, right, which like is what everybody's trying to go for. And Hollywood is one of those one of those towns where people just, they want to have some comfort in knowing that, you know, what you're doing. And the easiest way for them to determine that is if somebody else has already given you money to do it. Right? Like, oh, this guy's already directed something. Okay? Good. You know, doesn't matter whether it's good or bad. It's just the fact that you've done a feature says to them, okay, this guy did a feature, he didn't collapse. He didn't freak out. He didn't go massively over budget. Like, you know, he made something pretty good. Like, let's do the next thing. That's what they're always looking for. So even with writers again, it's also not just the writing, it's like, Who are you as a person? Are you abrasive and annoying and not fun to work with? Like, nobody's gonna want to work with you? Oh, you know,

Alex Ferrari 39:41
that's that's the bottom

Joshua Caldwell 39:42
too. I mean, I've been asked in meetings about scripts thinking that I was the shit and that like, you know, what I wrote was like, you know, golden you know, the written in Golden ink. You know, and and you just very soon you get over that, you know, and you realize that no, like, you know, I always thought like with Chris McQuarrie, chris chris McQuarrie, always had that great response was like, the minute I stopped thinking about what I could get out of it, everything changed. Instead, it was how do I help you get what you want out of it. And then I'll do it the best way that I can, right, but it's not. It's not Oh, I'm the smartest guy in the room. And these are my ideas. And this is what it's going to be, especially when you're starting out. You know, but if you go in there, and your goal is to deliver something that they can sell and make money on, people are gonna want to hire you again. So I think any writing is valuable. I think, like, Look, if you've got an idea for for a low budget, genre movie, or even help low budget drama, like do it. There's no reason to stop. Stop you. But the other thing is, you got to think about well, okay, well, me as a writer, what do I want to be right? Because let's say you get that under $100,000 genre movie written? You know, no, say you have some drama that you really wanted to make. But then you've got a spec. That's 100 million. Yeah, sci fi space epic. Right? No, not gonna work. Yeah. And

Alex Ferrari 41:03
also, let's just put that on the side $100 million space epic that's not based on an IP that's existing already, or a toy, or some sort of thing is not going to get produced in today's Hollywood. It's just one.

Joshua Caldwell 41:15
I don't even know if like, I mean, I just think like, also, it's tough. Like, who's gonna buy it? You know, it's weird, because I know a couple people that have written these they've written really big budget things that everybody reading, but nobody bought it.

Alex Ferrari 41:27
Right? Because of that, because that's not the studio, right? I just can't make they're not what you're not. Right.

Joshua Caldwell 41:33
But what you're taught is Oh, right, that high concept, no script,

Alex Ferrari 41:39
from what I think the new rules are, is write a wonderful indie, or write a good series or be a good writer on a series or something like that. And then possibly, you'll get bumped up to a bigger budget situation to like, if they like your voice or something like that to to write the next Black Panther or, or that kind of scenario. But they're also looking a lot of those. I mean, have any of the Marvel's not been writer directors? Like I know, I'm sure that I don't know. But a couple of them have. But But I mean, a couple more. I'm right off the top of my head, I have not, I can't think of a director of a Marvel film, I'm going through them in my head that was not a writer on it in one of your co writers write that. So that so that

Joshua Caldwell 42:28
intro, I'm not as familiar with Marvel, but

Alex Ferrari 42:31
but any of those, any of those big, you know, epic studio projects, generally speaking as a writer, director. Yeah. It's a it's the, yeah, the big epics, especially for the studios, you know, unless you're, like, Pirates of the Caribbean or something like that, which dress is different. But that's just the world we live in. Yeah.

Joshua Caldwell 42:51
Yeah. I mean, so much has changed, you know. And there's also now opportunities in that digital in the digital world, you know, like, right, smaller, smaller stuff, you know, getting written. I mean, I don't know about with COVID. But, you know, for a while there, there was a lot of lot of opportunity, you know, in the writing, but I also think like, one of the real challenges that I see is just how tough it's got to be if you're just a writer, you know, it's just that I

Alex Ferrari 43:18
have more than ever,

Joshua Caldwell 43:20
that I'm gonna write a script. And that's all I all I want to be as a writer, that is, that is a tough world, man, I've seen a lot of people bow out, you know, a lot of people I knew, you know, for a couple years, like they just gave up, because it was just very, very challenging.

Alex Ferrari 43:34
My feeling is, this is just my opinion, I think that you if you're a writer out there, right now, try if you can't, if you don't want to direct and don't want to produce your own stuff, partner with someone who can, and make that make low budget stuff and start start small and start building up and, and all of a sudden you have 2345 of these things under your belt, then you start getting and then you all these kind of lower budget genre pictures or lower budget streaming series, they will you have an opportunity to get to get a foothold into that. If you think you're going to be making the next Marvel forget if you think you're gonna be making the big next studio movie. It's the competition for those jobs is so big. It's so competitive. And there's basically what are we talking about 100 guys, and unfortunately, they're mostly guys, you know, that are are vying for those who have $200 million plus films on their resumes. So you've got to work your way up there. I that's my I'm more of a you know, me. I'm an entrepreneurial, entrepreneurial kind of guy like you are. So we like I'd rather have control of my own property. And at the end of the day, you have to ask yourself, what's the angled? Do you just want to write for the writing sake or do you want to make a living as a writer, and then there's two different approaches.

Joshua Caldwell 45:00
Yeah, and it just takes time, you know, it takes takes a lot of a lot of build scripts, a lot of starts and stops a lot of ideas that just don't pan out, you know, and sometimes you got to go down and get a script written, even if it's not the best idea, because you got to have the experience of having written it, you know, and, and, you know, and it's about getting feedback is also about being, you know, I think the other thing too, is like, you know, it's also about being in a place where you can start making connections, you know, if you don't have that agent, you don't have that manager, like, you know, it contests can only take you so far. You know? And, you know, as a writer, there's a lot of benefit to being in LA, you know,

Alex Ferrari 45:43
you have to spend your time here purely being a writer, you know, you got to spend you otherwise, you got to do time. Yeah, look, I'm not saying you can't, I've interviewed people on the show before who've made a living selling scripts that are outside of the Hollywood system. It's rare, but it does happen. But if you want to play the game, you've got to be worth what the players are, unfortunately, yeah. And I think everyone, even if they like you, you spend time here, you did your time, right? Did you get that you're sentenced to live in LA for a certain period of time. And then after that, you can either stay here for the rest of your life, or you can move to get out, or move to a more reasonable place to live. Yeah.

Joshua Caldwell 46:18
You know, I mean, it was like it, you know, and it's funny, because, like, with, with the glory days, yeah, like that. We got that to Todd, because I was in an internship. And I was just talking to the guy who was the assistant there guy named David Clark, who's a friend now. But he was like, you just talking about I was like, Ah, you know, I'm a writer, like, I want to move your word. And, you know,

Alex Ferrari 46:39
I love that you just, well,

Joshua Caldwell 46:41
yeah. Right. I'm like, I'm an intern, you know, right, getting paid. Right. Right. But, um, but I was, you know, if I warmed up to the person, I would tell them otherwise, I try not to say anything. But, you know, basically, like, I just told him I was, you know, I've got a script, it's this. And he's like, Oh, that's, that's actually kind of funny. I'd like to read that. So I gave it to him. And he was the one that got it to, you know, ended up going through the rigmarole to get it to Todd, you know, and so even though it didn't lead anything, it's still like that. That's a clear example, like he could have it could have sold huge, like, I have no idea. You know, and that

Alex Ferrari 47:17
and that does happen. Yeah. And and that's also the importance of networking in this business, right. So, so, so important to build out relationships, authentic relationships with people, authentic relationships with people, I always tell people, like what Chris Macquarie said, you? How can I be of service to you? How can I help you not? I need you to do this for me. Yeah, how can I be of service to you? And

Joshua Caldwell 47:44
even he's huge, and he still takes it with that kind of thing? You know, and that kind of attitude? Without question.

Alex Ferrari 47:49
Now, how did you you've worked with a lot of studios and producers, how do you deal with notes? as a creative?

Joshua Caldwell 47:56
So you know, it's interesting, because I, how do I deal with notes, I get the notes, and then I yell and scream and pillow. Sure

Alex Ferrari 48:09
parent and

Joshua Caldwell 48:10
do some working out punch things. Right? And then I settle? No, I mean, I think that I've learned to take, I've learned to just accept that everybody's trying to make the script better, right? There might be different versions of better, but everyone's just trying to, in some cases you're trying to contribute. And it's a multi prong thing, because sometimes notes or just a note to give a note, right, and they don't care about it. Other times, they're like, super passionate about it, you know, and so what I usually do is I, the best method that I found is if you're doing a call, or whatever, just take the notes. And if they ask for your feedback during the call, just say look like, just give me the notes. Let me just absorb these. And let me think about it. And then let me come back to you. If I have any questions, right? So you take all the notes, and then you sit with them. And then you just do the notes that you agree with. You know, so you you implement those notes, and then you give it back to them. And they're like, what about this, you're like, Well, you know, I didn't feel that this one work, because then you make it a discussion right now. Because most of the time, they're not going to remember that they even gave you the note, depending on the level of investment that they have in the project, right? If it's working with a producer, then that's different than if it's working with an exact who's reading 50 scripts a night, you know, but what I found is that if you if you've shown that you can do the work that you that you've implemented notes that you've taken what they've had to say, and you've done it in a way that you can you think is best. They tend to let the stuff that you don't do go unless they feel very passionate about that. You know, and so, but really, it's it's It's kind of just going well, what's the feedback and it's different situations, are you taking notes from a group of friends that you're just trying to get feedback from, and you can blow them all off if you want to, or you being ordered to implement this set of notes, you know, and so it's a fine line, I think, like, if you if you disagree with something, you should feel free to stand up for it and explain why. You know, or you feel like, you're not going to do that no justice because of these reasons. But I think like, you know, I say this down, which is like, a good idea can come from anywhere. And I will 100% steal that idea. If it's good. Amen. Amen. Brother, preach, you know, preach. And, and there's also just, there's so many steps that you're going through, right? Like, if you're in an early stage of doing a script, you're like, this, I just don't know about this scene, whatever. But you're like, we are 20 steps away from ever filming this scene. And so much can change between now. Right? So like, if it's a short term game, right? Like, it's going to make the exec happy, it's going to make this guy happy. Nobody's to say because all they need to do is go to the director and say, What do you think about the scene, the director is probably gonna say the scenes fucking sucks. Like, we need to change it. And then the director goes to the exact we're changing this. And these echoes, okay, whatever. You know what I mean? There's always there's, there's a politicking that goes on, in film production, you know, that, that a lot of people don't have an ear for, or an eye for. And it can be really important servicing you, you know, as you go through it. But you know, it's a, it's a challenge, especially when you're really passionate about something, especially the

Alex Ferrari 51:37
less experienced you have, the more passionate you might, might be.

Joshua Caldwell 51:42
Oh, and I say all of this, having gone through that thing, where I said, like, Fuck you, like you don't know what you're talking about? Like, you know,

Alex Ferrari 51:48
I'm a genius.

Joshua Caldwell 51:49
This is a perfect, Chris, why aren't you writing me a check right now? Right, like total and total entitlement. But I think like notes are best served by just having some distance to them. And then going, like I the best example I can give because I haven't had that many situations where I've really disagreed with notes in a script stage. But I had a situation with my producer on infamous where we were in the Edit. And he was giving notes. And there were some notes that I sentimentally disagreed with, like I was like, I absolutely disagree with these notes. Upon initial reflection, right, like, literally, it was like, none of these notes are good, I'm not doing any of them. And then what I did was I just took some space, I stepped back from it, right? I put the notes down and went fishing, let it sit, I came back. And I said, Alright, I'm gonna see if I can even let me just see if I can even do them. Right. Let me see if I can even do execute the note. Because sometimes people are giving you a note, they have no idea if it's doable. And then I go, Okay, then how now? So I do them what I can, and I go, how do I feel about this? I'm like, yeah, I'm okay with that. I'm alright with that. Okay, this one I can live with, you know, and and eventually, I ended up doing in the process of the Edit, I did, like 60, I don't know, I probably did, like 80% of their notes. And then the ones that I just didn't agree with, I just didn't do. And then when they saw the next cut, there were a couple that I hadn't done, where they came back and said, We feel very strongly about this. And then we had a very, very passionate back and forth about it. And I ended up doing, I ended up executing in a way that was a compromise between him and I. But then a lot of the other ones, he just kind of let go of, you know, and I felt like we ended up getting to a good place. And what it required, though of me was stepping back and saying, Okay, let me just see if I can even do it. Because Am I am I reacting to the fact that I'm being given a note more of my reaction to the note. Right? And it's very easy to let your ego get in the way and it proved to be the first one. And not the second one. Fair enough. And and there might be some gems in there. You know, there might be some stuff that in there, like, Great example is that the so spoiler alert for those who haven't seen it, but at the end of the layover, originally, we had her give the whole speech about what's going to happen when she arrives and meets her boyfriend. And then it cuts to the next morning and the next morning is just played over music, right. And I had a buddy of mine who came to a screening, we just did a screening to see that see what it was going to turn out like. And my buddy said, you know, and he's he's an editor, but he said, You should try. You should try taking that last part, the montage of her like going onto the plane and put that under the story. And I was like,

Yeah, I don't know, like maybe, like a good idea, you know, and this guy, he was gonna like, whatever no idea, you know, but I was like, I was like, yeah, maybe I'll try it, you know, and I got I was, but originally I was like, No, like, I don't want to do that. Yeah. And then I just like, Well, let me just try it. And I did it. And I was like, ah, I kinda I kind of like that like that. That actually is really good. You know, and I could have tried it and been like, yeah, it doesn't work as well for me, you know, and then gone back to the way I had it. But the Act of just trying it opened up a whole new meaning to the movie for me. And a whole new way of ending that film that I never would have thought of on my own. You know? And so that's why I say I'll take a good idea from anywhere and and, and I'll steal it. I'll make it mine.

Alex Ferrari 55:17
Now your latest film infamous, got released during COVID. How did how did the the driving I saw some numbers on it didn't do bad. It actually did. Okay, pretty well. Yeah. Not being Yeah, we

Joshua Caldwell 55:31
end up being like number two, like, right, we were the number one new movie number two overall, you know, and it did it did pretty good business over four weeks. Like it was, you know, I think it took it over 400,000 that's, you know, that's not bad at all.

Alex Ferrari 55:46
That's awesome. Yeah,

Joshua Caldwell 55:46
it was brutalized by some of the critics. But

Alex Ferrari 55:51
well, that's just the way it is. It doesn't matter. The critics or critics. We've all taken, we've all taken our slides. Anytime. Anytime I get a bad review. I always just go to go to Google. And I type in Shawshank Redemption, bad review. And then I read those. And I go, Okay, yeah, or go just write godfather bad review. Star Wars, bad review. You know,

Joshua Caldwell 56:16
the other thing is, for me what was so perplexing about it, that's a whole other podcast, probably, but the whole idea, the whole thing that was so perplexing, was like I've had my other movies, and I know the negatives of it, right? Like, I sort of know Okay, this this is probably not going to work or I get back critique. And I look at like, I mean, I love him for this. Like, I love the work I did on it. I love the movie I made and I'm I feel like everybody that saw it that didn't. I knew people weren't gonna like it, but a lot of people that like really venomously are hate that movie. I feel like they saw a totally different movie than I saw.

Alex Ferrari 56:52
But that's the way it is with all art. And all I know is that that's just the way it is. Yeah, I mean, I mean, Kubrick every single time Kubrick put something out everybody was like, This is horror, like 2001. Horrible. Clockwork Orange, horrible. The Shining horrible Full Metal Jacket horrible Eyes Wide Shut Horeb. Like, it doesn't matter. It is you as an artist. Get it out there. And if it reaches an audience, that's all that you can do. I'm going to ask you a few questions. Ask all of my guests sir. What are three screenplays every screenwriter should read?

Joshua Caldwell 57:27
Whoo. Let's see. What are some that I have? I have I have in there. I think that. I mean, I think that let me think about it. I think that Magnolia is one of them.

Alex Ferrari 57:46
I think it's it you can't go wrong with PT. Yeah, what can go wrong with PT a go wrong? Oh, no, no, he can't he

Joshua Caldwell 57:54
there's just so many rules that are broken.

Alex Ferrari 57:57
Yes. You know,

Joshua Caldwell 57:58
by his writing that I think it's worth reading that. Gosh, what else? I think that

Alex Ferrari 58:08
it's a good question.

Joshua Caldwell 58:09
I don't I don't go through and read a lot of scripts. What do I have? I have like, I'll tell you what I have. I have Mystic River, which I thought was really really good. traffic. Yes. Which is really interesting. I think, you know, people have kind of come around on it. But I think Chinatown is still a really good example of, of screenwriting.

Alex Ferrari 58:28
Yeah, of course.

Joshua Caldwell 58:30
And I, you know, it's weird, though, because I look, I like to look at specific movies like movies I really love I'll go read those scripts. Sure. Because I like to just see, you know, just how it got put down on the page. You know, like, you know, so I love reading like Oliver Stone scripts. I love reading. I mean, Chris Nolan, certainly, but like, you know, PT Anderson, I just like, I like reading so much. I like reading the scripts of movies that are not traditional. Right? They're not an obvious type of film. Because then you start to look at it and go, Well, how is this even put together? You know, and you start to see all the ways in which like the traditional screenwriting rules like mark it here, too, which I think is really exciting and really opens up really opens up new possibilities when you see that occur and other scripts and you go like, let me try that. You know, I mean, it's the same thing with layovers. Like, let's, let's, let's make a 10 minute dialogue, and you're just like, nobody wants to do that. You know, right, right. All right.

Alex Ferrari 59:31
What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Joshua Caldwell 59:38
What is the lesson that took me the longest to learn, go business or in life? That is own that is really only about the work that you do? That it's not about people's reaction to it. It's not about whether people like it, it's not about whether it's solar cells, like You have to be happy with the work that you do, because that is the only thing that's in your control.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:06
And what did you learn from your biggest failure?

Joshua Caldwell 1:00:12
Biggest failure? Well, as a writer, I don't know if I have that as a writer, I would say that as a director, my biggest failure was moving away from an approach and a style that I liked and felt good about and an effort to try to. I don't want to say elevate something in an effort. It was with the serious South Beach like I tried to do something in a style that wasn't me. Right? And stetic That wasn't me because I felt I needed to try and make it feel not brighter but more I don't know like slicker more no produce and I realized after the fact that that was a mistake that I should have gone the stylistic route that I'm most comfortable with you know, and that I feel the best with because that I felt is what gets me better performances and better movies.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:08
And where can people find you and your work and all the stuff you're doing

Joshua Caldwell 1:01:13
I'm on Twitter at Joshua underscore Caldwell that's a good place to start because everything leads out from there and then my works I mean, you know, movies are now available. They're all available on iTunes, Amazon, VUDU, YouTube kind of wherever wherever movies are sold.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:30
Brother man I appreciate you coming on the show and and sharing your wisdom of the in the shrapnel that you have taken always. And your movie award sir.

Joshua Caldwell 1:01:42
I had to slip that in some hips.

Alex Ferrari 1:01:44
I've never actually seen so close. I've never actually seen it so close before so I appreciate that. Now listen, I I bust your balls about the movie award. I would have killed for a movie award. I would kill me for what

Joshua Caldwell 1:01:57
It was awesome is the coolest night of my life so far.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:00
Dude, I got my first award at a film festival. I still have it. It's on my shelf. It was like a bet. It was like a best picture for my short and I have a picture of me looking at it. Yeah, and I literally just like in awe of like, Oh, yeah, like they love me. They like like they really like. So a pleasure as always brother. Thanks again, man.

Joshua Caldwell 1:02:22
Dude, take care. Have a good night.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:24
I want to thank Joshua for coming on the show and dropping those indie film screenwriting knowledge bombs on the tribe today. If you want to get links to anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show notes at bulletproofscreenwriting.tv/082. And thank you all the tribe members who signed up for the new podcast inside the screenwriters mind, which is going to be a bi weekly podcast. And if you have not checked it out, please head over to screenwriters mind.com sign up. It is going to be the best of all of our podcasts in the indie film hustle Podcast Network so you guys can take a flavor of all of the podcasts that we have at the ifH Podcast Network. So thank you for listening guys. As always, keep on writing no matter what. We'll talk to you soon.

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