Film Production | Bulletproof Screenwriting

BPS 407: Unforgettable Storytelling Phillip Andrew on Creativity, Leadership, and Resilience

February 20, 2025 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

On today’s episode, we dive into the fascinating world of creativity, resilience, and the art of storytelling with Phillip Andrew, a multi-talented producer, motivational speaker, and DJ from Los Angeles. From his humble beginnings in Michigan to his relentless pursuit of opportunities in Hollywood, Phillip’s journey is a testament to the power of determination, adaptability, and the enduring impact of great stories.

Phillip reminisced about his early days navigating the entertainment industry, sharing candid insights about how unconventional networking—like a chance encounter on a basketball court—landed him his first job in production. Reflecting on this pivotal moment, he said, “You don’t always know which door will open, but that’s why you keep knocking on as many as possible.” This philosophy underscores the importance of persistence, even when the odds seem insurmountable.

In the heart of Hollywood, Phillip discovered the transformative power of storytelling. He spoke passionately about the evolution of stories—from ancient oral traditions to modern-day cinematic spectacles. Despite technological advancements, Phillip believes the core of storytelling remains unchanged: creating narratives that resonate deeply with people. He emphasized, “It doesn’t matter how advanced the technology is—if the story doesn’t connect, the audience won’t care.”

Phillip’s journey wasn’t without its challenges. From grappling with personal setbacks to navigating the unpredictable nature of film sets, he revealed how these experiences shaped his outlook. He humorously recounted a lesson from the legendary director Wes Craven, who once said, “Who told you things were ever supposed to go as planned?” This nugget of wisdom became a mantra for Phillip, helping him approach obstacles with creativity and a solutions-oriented mindset.

A recurring theme in the conversation was leadership—on set and in life. Phillip shared a story about a showrunner who inspired him by personally crawling under a table to fix a light. This simple act of humility and teamwork left a lasting impression, reinforcing Phillip’s belief that effective leaders must lead by example. He noted, “When people see that you’re willing to do the work too, they’ll want to go the extra mile with you.”

Phillip also touched on the current “golden age of content,” highlighting both the opportunities and challenges it presents. With an explosion of platforms like Netflix, YouTube, and Hulu, the barrier to entry has never been lower. However, this democratization of content also means creators face more competition than ever. For Phillip, the solution is simple: focus on the power of the story. “If you don’t have a compelling reason for your audience to care, your content will get lost in the noise,” he warned.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 1:49
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:53
On this week's episode of the podcast, we have a guest from LA where else we again we met through the power of Twitter. And this guest and I are gonna be talking all about what an education really means. You know, we talk about college education, we talk about moving out to LA the ups, the downs. You know, pretty brutal, honest interview, as my guest shares a lot of his downs. And, you know how he actually networked, and it wasn't the the traditional ways and and just finding through all of this sort of maze of things, and the whole concept of this interview is going to be unforgettable storytelling, as we kind of talk a lot about the different methods of storytelling, and, you know, directly and indirectly, a lot of the other things that go on here. And you know, what ideas stick, what ideas don't stick? Unreliable narrators, you know, all that good stuff. So without further ado, with guest Phillip Andrew.

Phillip Andrew 2:49
Ohh, Mandy, you gotta be careful who you meet on the interwebs. Man, you know, isn't it crazy that I like, years ago, you would never it was weird to meet, like, dating, like it was weirded to go online dating, you would never you were told to never take rides with strangers. And now our entire world is like, based around, like, Uber and Lyft and like, jumping in the cars with strangers, and that's completely okay. And like, nobody even knows how to meet each other in person anymore. Everybody's always, you know, you gotta swipe right, swipe left to meet anyone. Like, things have changed so quickly. It's insane.

Dave Bullis 3:24
Yeah, I mean, you're encouraged now to trust strangers, like, put all your faith and your bodily harm and strangers, it's, it's kind of crazy.

Phillip Andrew 3:31
Man, I remember I went to so I'm here, I'm out here in Los Angeles, and I remember going to a party, and we go to this party, and it's kind of like, at the base of, like, the the Hollywood Hills. It's like a nice house, but nothing too insane. And we go to this house, and we're like, kind of like, Yo, what is this party for? Like, who's Is it someone's birthday? What is it? They're like, Oh no, it's this, like, new startup app in in we're like, What the hell is that? And they're like, oh well, it's like, here. And they handed me a pen. Like, the only party gifts were, like a pen with the logo on it, like you would get at some, you know, at, like a trade show, and I look at it, and I'm like, lift. I go, What the hell is lift? And they go, oh yeah, man. It's like, this app where you can, you know, you can get rides from people that are already going the way that you're going. And I was like, so you get in a car with a stranger, and they're like, Yeah. And I was like, this is the dumbest idea ever. It'll never work. And then, like, years later, I'm the guy who has to sit here and be like, Oh, I guess I'm not that much of an innovator, you know.

Dave Bullis 4:32
I'm surprised they actually gave away pens, you know, because, like, an idea for me, what if you're gonna do like a launch like that, you'd give away, like a service. So you would say, Hey, this is the service. This is Lyft, and you would kind of demonstrate it. You know what I mean? Because pens, yeah, I think pens are kind of, I mean, don't get me wrong. I still use pens every day, but, but pens, I just don't know if they really have the same marketing branding powers they once had, you know? I know definitely, yeah, you know what I mean. It's just. Like, I don't think people look at that and go, Oh, man, I gotta use lift now that I'm using their pen. Come on,

Phillip Andrew 5:06
Right? Yeah, it's kind of, it's kind of crazy, so, but yeah, it was. I always try to remember that anytime that I want to anytime, my first immediate reaction is to want to, like, rip something apart, you know? Then I'm like, wait a minute. Think, think in a different world where maybe this could work. How would it work? Why would people, you know, it just forces me, you know, I think in life, you always have those examples of things that happen when you were completely in utterly wrong. And so it's like, it reminds me to be like, All right, don't, don't try to crush this dream, or don't try to, you know, don't. Don't veto this idea really give it, give it a little bit of time think it through and see if there is something there, rather than just giving snap judgments on stuff. So I try to use it as like a life lesson, I guess.

Dave Bullis 5:50
Yeah, yeah, right. So, and you know, when you saw these new apps come out, now, you kind of wonder how it all ties in together, because you need, with all these apps coming out, you go, my God, there's so many out there, and there's so many different social media channels. It's like, you know what, what catches on, what doesn't, and that's why there's so many books now written about this stuff, about business and about, you know, ideas that catch. There's actually a book called sticky and it's actually about what ideas stick and what and what doesn't, and why that is.

Phillip Andrew 6:17
Oh, no way. I'm reading a book right now called Sticky marketing.

Dave Bullis 6:21
Oh, sticky marketing. I don't know if it's the same one, yeah, but it could be.

Phillip Andrew 6:26
I did, I did see that. Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, like, I know they've had tons of studies come out with, like, what makes, what makes something memorable? What? What? How do you know? How do you help things add to your memory? What? What makes something emotional? What is the best you know for us as as storytellers, it's like always trying to figure out exactly like, what is going to resonate with, with the target audience, what's going to stick with them. What is it that they like? You know? What is it that they remember? You know, even we talk about it, you know, from speaking standpoints, when you know, so often people will go in in they could go to a conference and have a great time, and then you'd be like, Oh, what did the speaker talk about? Or who is the speaker? And they'll go, oh, I don't know, but he told this story about blah, blah, blah, and it's like, that's people don't remember the names, necessarily. They don't even remember where the information came from. They remember these powerful stories. And I think that's really important for us to realize, like anytime, that anytime you're whether you're in marketing or advertising or, you know, for us in TV or wherever, like, it's important to tell great stories that people want to repeat. You know, I mean, that's the that was even before we had things to write down, and before we had TV. And way back in the day, that's how things got told. That's how we taught people how to, you know, how to behave. What was the proper way to handle certain situations. How do you stay motivated? It was all through story. It was all through generational storytelling. And I think it's important that we don't ever allow ourselves to get so caught up in the technology you know that we forget that while it's amazing to have these brand new, you know, these amazing cameras that look insane in VR and we're getting all this amazing technology at the core, at the root of it, the most important thing is still storytelling And telling a great, captivating, memorable story. And if you don't have that, it doesn't matter how cool the footage is, it doesn't matter how great the audio is. If you're not saying something that is worth people wanting to hear and wanting to repeat, then what the hell are we doing?

Dave Bullis 8:36
Yeah, it's sort of like the story behind, you know, even the story you tell within the company, right? So there's a story that, you know, the managers and directors and all that they have to tell everybody. It's like being on a film set, you know, because we're, you know, we're both in the same industry. So if you're the director, you want to be able to, sort of, you must create that. I guess Zeitgeist is the right word I'm looking for, right? We want to create totally, sort of, you know, feeling on set. And it's, it's almost like the story you're telling them, you know, there's a quick addict to it. I want to tell it's a friend of mine was working on a film with Spike Lee. And Spike Lee actually got on the got in front of everybody the day of they started filming, and he actually, he goes, this was like a whole different spike. And he was like, hey, you know what? If we all work together and do all this together, we're gonna make a damn good film. And he was like, man, he goes this spike is awesome, because it's like, you know, he's up there telling a story about how we're all going to work together, and we're all just going to make this amazing thing. And it was, and it's going to be fantastic. And that really stuck with all the crew after that, after spike did that,

Phillip Andrew 9:35
I think that's, I think it's key, right? It's like, and I think there's, you know, we, we, you study. I've studied a lot of like the great, you know, battle. You know, war, war, like generals and people that led people into massive wars. And, you know, people don't want to fight for someone, when, from the comfort of their own home, you know, like they want to, they want to feel like their leader is out in front, like their leader is there and is willing to go through the battle with them, you know. And I think that's so important. I think that was great, that that spike did that. I had a moment I remember I had a director, you know, Executive Producer, show runner, that I was working with on a project. His name was Phil lot, and Phil was an amazing guy in one of the first things I ever saw Phil do. And I still can picture this to my to this day, we're running around the craziness of getting the first day and getting some getting the shots set up. And I remember, in all the craziness, for some reason, I like look over and I see Phil, and there was a, there was a plug for a light that needed to get plugged in, and it was underneath a table. And, you know, Phil has been in the industry for, you know, 2025, years. He's won tons of awards, very, very talented. And he doesn't, he's got his walkie. He easily could have said, you know, hey, you know, feel for an available PA. I need somebody to, you know, come plug this light in, and it would have been normal. It would have been fine. It would have no one would have thought anything of it. But I sat there and watched the show runner of the project get down on his hands and knees, crawl underneath a table, plug this light in and then walk back, or crawl back from underneath the table, and started adjusting the light. And I remember like it was young in my career. I was probably only 2425 and I remember just seeing that, and it had, I mean, here it is. I'm still telling the story. It had a profound impact on me, because I knew, man, I'm working for a guy that's willing to do the work too. You know, he's not just some guy up here shouting orders. He's not just some guy that wants to sit back and give his coffee and make everyone else do it. He's willing to go. He's willing to do the work too. And it made me that much more excited to want to work with him and learn from him, because I understood, man, that's the type of guy he is, and that's the type of guy that I want to help see win. And I think that was so it's great that spike did that. I mean, I like I said, I think that's really important that people, you know, the stories that we tell ourselves, and also like the way that we show up to other people and and how we how we are perceived, and what we do we we want to make people want to win with us, you know. And I think when you can do that, when you can have everybody on a team that is working towards one common goal, I think it's a really powerful thing, and you can achieve a lot of really great stuff.

Dave Bullis 12:34
Yeah, you have to lead by example and not be one of those guys just parking on orders, you know, I mean, and we've all been on those film sets too, where, you know, maybe a student film, I see a lot in, you know, I used to work with a lot of student filmmakers, and it's the kind of, I guess maybe they, they kind of feel like they kind of need to micromanage, and they kind of use that as a way of directing, or they or and professionals do that too. I mean, how? You know what I mean. So it's one of those things where you want to lead, you want to let people know that, that you're kind of there. You kind of, you kind of have to be the mother and the father, so to speak. You know what? I mean, you got to, have to say, Yeah, where it's Eve, we're going to do this, right? And also you got to be the father, like, All right, let's, let's pull up our sleeves and kind of get this done.

Phillip Andrew 13:15
Definitely. I think it's an, you know, in, I think that's why, just in, you know, like with him, you know, with Spike doing that at the beginning of shooting, I think setting the tone is so very, very important. Like so yesterday, I'm, I'm producing a new project for a for a large digital media platform. And, you know, it was our first day on set, and I scheduled a 30 minute meeting that probably only needed to be 10, but it was the first day of filming, and I scheduled this 30 minute meeting, and I went over everything with everyone, you know. We went over safety. I went over, you know, expectations. Made sure everyone was introduced, everyone knew who was leading, what departments in in really just set expectations so that people knew, if you have a problem, where to go. You know, I walked people through creative which a lot of times, especially in what we do. Not everyone is, you know, a lot, not everyone needs to know all of the creative points or exactly the schedule for every little thing. But I really wanted, especially on day one, I wanted everyone to be on the same page, to know what we were doing in the field, that level of comfort and teamwork, because I've been on shows before where you come in day one, and it's like they expect, hey, it's the first day of filming. We're gonna do an hour of ESU equipment set up, and then we're gonna be filming. And it's like, I don't even know who in the heck to ask for anything. I didn't meet anyone. I don't know, you know, I walk up to somebody and ask if they know where the coffee is, and it's the director, you know, it's like, so it's one of those things where it's really important, I think, to set that tone early on. And then when you do that, I think it gives you a little bit more leeway, like, I have a tendency to be a little bit more. High energy. You know, I get nervous. Sometimes I get, you know, sometimes I get my emotions. My emotions start to kind of take over at times, before I check, put them in check. And I always let people know. I go, Hey, look, I want you to know any bit of me that is micromanaging is not coming out of a place of not feeling like you can do your job. It's just that I have a bad memory sometimes, and as soon as things pop in my brain, and I want to know if it's happening, I'll ask you, and please never take offense to that it's not coming from a I go, and I always let people know if I actually am having an issue where I'm maybe not I'm feeling like things could be stepped up. I will come with to you, and I will tell you, I will be 100% honest and open at every point with that stuff. And I think people appreciate that, because they at least they know, like, there's no you know, I don't want to be the person that they don't know where I stand. You know where they're like, oh, I don't know if you how he feels about me. Like, I want people to know that I have their back. I'm there to support them. If there's a way that we can be doing it better, let's figure it out together. But if it's just me being crazy, like, that's just kind of part of my personality, and I will do my best to diminish it and be respectful or, you know, and just, I'll do my best to diminish it and not seem like a crazy person. But, you know, we all have our moments, and I think coming from the beginning, and just setting the tone of all of that on set is so important, so that everybody knows where they stand and what's going on.

Dave Bullis 16:31
So just, just with that, you know, with taking all that, Phillip, what was so, what was like, the worst onset experience that you've ever had,

Phillip Andrew 16:39
The worst onset experience,

Dave Bullis 16:41
Like, like, and you don't have to get like, too much into details, but maybe I'm not looking for you, like, name drop or anything. Oh no. When people hear stuff like that, they're like, Oh man, I can't tell the story. I'm like, no, no, just I want to hear more about the situation, rather than the person you know and how you resolve stuff like that. Because whether it be like, you know, an issue with a person on set or a location falling through, any of that stuff, you know what I mean?

Phillip Andrew 17:06
Oh yeah, man. Oh, dude, locations that locations falling through happen so much that we can't, I can't even, you know, it's not even a big deal anymore. I remember hearing I worked this is, this is actually a cool, fun story that that I'll tell, and then I'll get back to mine. But like, I worked on a project a few years ago with Wes Craven. There we go, name drop. But no what? He was such a he was such a great dude, and we so talented and so caring. But I remember we were on set and we were shooting this project that was kind of like a horror, horror film directors competing against one another. And I remember one, they were having an argument on set. Like, one of the teams were trying to fire their director and replace it with another one, and they were all arguing and fighting. And I remember one, one of the directors stood up and was like, you know, this is BS. I don't, you know, I don't want to be a part of this anymore. Like, I don't even, like, this isn't it's not going as planned. And Wes immediately Stephanie's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, who told you it was going to ever go as planned? And he and he took it, and he had a moment where he was like, he took a coachable moment and was like, Look, when we were filming, scream, um, like, I guess the story goes, like, a few days before they got ready to film, like they're date. They're like 72 hours out from filming. And if anybody knows this and I'm telling you wrong story, please correct me. But this is my way of this is my understanding of how it went down about 72 hours. 36-72 hours before they started filming. The high school that had signed off on everything that they were going to film at someone from the school board finally read the script like they had approved it, but no one read the script, and then they read it, and they're like, Whoa, no way. We are not allowing this to be filmed at our high school. And they pulled they pulled out the high school, the location pulled out like 3672 hours before they were supposed to film. And they had to scramble and find a whole new a whole, like, that's not an easy ask. That's not like, oh, we need another coffee shop on the street. Like, that's a massive, you know, anyone that's ever booked locations knows how the bigger their location, though, those are difficult things. There's a lot of people that have to sign off on that, and so a lot of work went into it, and then all of a sudden, you know, it just, that's how quickly things can change. And if you sit around and if you get worried, if you just, if you focus on problems, you're done. If that's all that you focus on, if you are a person that only sees problems, you're going to get crushed. If you can be the person that sees solutions everywhere, opportunities everywhere. You know, possibilities now you're now, you're in, you're adding to the winning success. Like now you can get into a thing where you're doing well. And I think that that's, um, you know, that's something that you have to do, is really stuff, you know, I told this, I tell this story a lot. I had a, one of my first bosses is a amazing executive producer named he. His name is Eli Holzman, and I love the guy. He's He's amazing.

And I told the story earlier, and it's funny that I'm telling it again, but you know, I asked him when I was early in my career, I was probably 23 years old, and I asked him, Hey, man, what is, you know, is there something of advice that you can give me? And he said, you know, just always be, always bring solutions. Don't bring problems. You know, if the car breaks down, don't come to me and say, the car broke down. Come to me and say, Hey, man, the car broke down. But we have option A, and we can either pay, you know, $400 to get another car out here. Option C is pay. Or option B is $600 to have somebody come out and fix it and it's going to take two hours. Or option C is we just drive it into the LA River, and then we never we act as if it never happened, right? Like he always talked about solution, solution, solutions, and just that, I mean that that lesson has been monumental for me, because, yeah, the first instinct is when something goes bad, is to want to shut down and get sad and angry and kick things and and, you know, you want to blame someone, like it's just human nature, like we're all these little kids that now have grown up pants on and so we want to get mad. But you know, now, I think that's the biggest thing for me, is just always knowing, like, no matter how bad it gets, there's a way to get through it, and you got, you have to be able to find the solution instead of focusing on the problem.

Dave Bullis 21:34
Yeah, it's the Art of Problem Solving, as you know. I, I've been saying on the podcast before is, you know, how do you solve a problem without creating an equal or greater problem than the one you're trying to solve? And, yeah, and being a problem solver rather than a problem spotter, you know? I mean, you get those people on set, man, where, where they you hire them as crew, and they come up to you and they say, Hey, Philip, you know this, this location fell through the car, got a flat tire. What should we do, and you're like, well, you're supposed to be here helping me. Yeah, come on,

Phillip Andrew 22:07
Yeah. It's always a little frustrating at times, because you know you, I try to really let people you know you really empower. You want to empower people you know. You want to let people know that you know what? You act as if, I remember, I had somebody tell me when I was young in my career, he's like, Yo, you got to act as if, like, if you don't do this, it's not going to get done. So what would you do? You know, and really, like, I think most of us, when we don't take that action, it's either a we just don't care, right? Like, we don't care about it, and we're super, you know, D gap about it, we just don't care anymore. Or we're afraid, and we're afraid we'll make the wrong decision, and we want somebody to back us up, and we're, you know, or so. It's like, almost, you know, I remember with somebody, I read it in a book once Brendon Bucha, it had this quote, and it was like, when action is required and a person doesn't act, at best, they're lazy, and at the worst, they're a coward. And it's like, man, like, I use that for any life, but to make that to how do we relate that to set it's like, there are those times where it's like, if you're not willing to make a decision, you know, you're being lazy or you're being a coward. And I've had to do that with myself many times, and especially in as much as I try not to be the guy that, like, hangs on money or finances and things like that. But there are times where I I've stopped and been like, Yo, dude, the paying you a decent amount of money to make these decisions, like, do it, like, figure it out. Like, this is on you like, you can't just, you know, like, for me, it's like, you're not a PA anymore. You don't get to just, you know, sit there and yeah, and do exactly what you're told. Like, as a PA, that's what it is being a PA production assistant is all about. Be quiet, be friendly, smile, do everything that's asked of you, and kind of, you know, stay out of the way, but be there and help, as much as your extra set of hands. When you start producing projects and directing projects and taking on greater responsibility, and the money is there and you're getting paid, and like, you have to be able to make a decision, you know, and it's like, by sitting by and doing nothing, or only, like you said being the person that only brings up problems. You're you're not going to be the person that that gets hired back or that gets a reputation of being the guy who can fix problems. And it's like, if you can be someone that fixes problems or sees problems and fixes them before they even happen. You know, like every firefighter would love to be there moments before the fire gets set, you know, because once it gets out of hand, then it's a lot of work. It's like, if you can be the person that notices and knows how to fix things early on before it becomes this raging, you know, fire, then you're going to keep getting work, and that's what it comes out. You're going to keep getting work, and you're going to make projects. More fun and enjoyable to work on. Yeah, I think, yeah, your point was great. And then I decided to talk for 15 minutes. So,

Dave Bullis 25:09
No, no, it's all good. It's all good Phillip. And I want to ask you too about how you know, how you know you got started in all this, because, you know, you mentioned Wes Craven. You mentioned working with Phil lot. So I wanted to ask, you know, you grew up in Michigan and you moved out to LA, you know, so at what age did you decide, you know, to move out to LA?

Phillip Andrew 25:30
Yeah, so I was about nine, and, you know, I'm that kid, dude. I grew up 10 minutes from downtown Detroit, on the side, just outside of Southwest Detroit, and I've always been that, that Midwest kid just in love with everything movies, everything California. I, you know, I joke that I wanted to be, I wanted to live the movie, clueless, like I legit, like that guy. I wanted to, you know, I grew up in watching that movie with my sister, and I just loved it. And, you know, I wrote a paper when I was like 13, about moving to California. And so I think that dream has always been there. But for me, you know, I got, you know, in media productions and creating, and, you know, I did a little bit of theater when I was younger. And so I was just always around creating entertainment. And so when I went, I went to Michigan State University after I graduated from high school, and, you know, went out, started, you know, did the business thing for a while, because obviously I was terrified of putting all my eggs in one basket of entertainment. But I moved. I ended up messing up my GPA, pretty, pretty bad. I joined a fraternity, started drinking and partying, and that became a whole nother. That's a whole nother story for a different podcast. And but, but, you know what? Things kind of, you know, ended up where I screwed my GPA up so much at Michigan State that I was going to it was going to take me a few more semesters to get into the business school. So I said, You know what? I had already started taking my film classes, my film and TV and radio, and I loved that stuff. And that was where I felt like I really came alive and really enjoyed it. I was like, I'm going to go after this and see what I can do. And, you know, I was, I was lucky enough to be able to do a couple of internships and really get some things finished. And I was able to finish college this semester early at state, and was getting ready to move out to LA, excuse me, was getting, you know, getting ready to move out to Los Angeles. And 11 days before I moved to LA, I got popped for a DUI, and it drastically affected my ability to move to California. So it took me a year to kind of get everything square, you know, squared away with the courts and kind of my path with with, you know, alcohol abuse and all that stuff. That's a whole nother story. But so I ended up going to, I stayed in Michigan for a little while. I worked at a radio station, and then when I was 23 I was 23 is when I moved out to Los Angeles. I had never been west of Wisconsin. Didn't really know anyone. There were a couple of kids that went from my high school that were, you know, five or six years older. So I did have one or two people that I could at least kind of ask some sort of advice on. But I really didn't know anything. I didn't know what I was doing. Didn't really even know if I wanted to do Film TV. I was still in the mindset that, you know, 20 people got in a room and came up with an idea and then they worked into, you know, made it like I didn't understand the industry at all. I did not understand how segmented things were. I didn't know how different it was to work in TV versus, you know, TV versus commercial versus movies. I didn't even know reality like, I didn't even really know what reality TV was. You know, I'd seen the real world and some of that stuff, but I didn't even realize how different and segmented a lot of the industry was so I get to California, and I move out, I don't know what in the hell I'm doing. I get a job working at vitamin shop. I get a job working at pack sun. I was doing extra work. I was doing, you know, I've been a DJ since I was 17, so I was DJing, and I'm just doing all this stuff. I'm doing clerical work in office buildings and just trying anything to just make rent and make it work. And, you know, I'm sitting here one day, I remember calling my dad, and I'm like, I have, I've got a four year degree from a Big 10 University, and I'm sitting here folding little kids board shorts and selling old women Metamucil like, what is going on in my life like I'm never gonna get hired. And this was right in 2009 right in the middle of the writer strike out here in Los Angeles. So work was tough, and I remember going, I would just go door to door at places, and I would go door to door at production companies, trying to meet them. I'd go to work, I'd go to the gym, I'd go play basketball, and then I would rinse and repeat. And that was my cycle of what I would do. And I wish I could tell you that one of those production companies called and wanted to hire me. I wish I could say that one of my job interviews went well. I met a guy playing basketball, and I was having a really good game, and I was pissing him off because I kept scoring.

So we are battling back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. The game ends. We start talking, and he ends up being a Midwest kid. We start talking a little bit. He's getting ready to get promoted. As soon as he found somebody to take his assistant job, and he brings me in the interview. I get the interview, and I start, and that was my very first job. Was from a guy working or playing basketball at the park. And that guy, his name is Kevin Bartel. He's a great friend of mine. Still. He runs a production company now here in Los Angeles. And you know, he's, he's such a rock star. He's amazing. And like, we met playing basketball, and like, that's how it was for me. And I started, I got that first job, and the job was me taking the assistant job for the guy, Eli, that I spoke about earlier. And you know, the first show we were doing, when I started, they were they had just finished post on the first episode, the first season of a show called Undercover Boss on CBS, and which was a massive show that, at the time no one had heard of. So I was like, working at a production company no one had heard of, on a show no one had ever heard of, and then it blew up, and it was like, that was my first job I got, just got, you know, but the thing I always tell kids, like, I'll try to mentor kids from Michigan State, and I go, Hey, look, I can't tell you to go play basketball every day, and that's where it's going to be. But what I can say is, if, if it wouldn't have been, if it wouldn't have been Kevin, if I wouldn't have met Kevin on the basketball court, I would have met somebody at the gym, or I would have met someone at an alumni event, or one of those production companies I would have win, would have eventually worked out. It's like you don't know. You don't always know what path is going to open. You don't know what door is going to open. But that's why you just bang on a ton of doors and you just, you know, I always tell people, the best thing you can do is just let people know what you want to do, you know, let them know that you're just hungry and ready and you don't know, yeah, hey, I don't have a ton of experience, but I'm excited to learn. I'm ready to get into it. How do we make this whole thing happen I'm in and I think that that the attitude, I don't know, when I hire pas, I hire on attitudes more than I hire on your experience. You know, like, what's your resume going to tell me what that you are really good at, like, getting water, like that, or that you're going to get coffee, or you can lift 50 pounds over your head. Like, what it's more about your your personality and how you like, what do I see out of you? Are you hungry? Do you want to learn? Are you ready to really get in this thing? Or you just like, I'm in LA, whatever? Like, you know, my buddy, my buddy, works on the show, so I guess I can work here. Like, I want people that are excited, you know? Because I know how I was when I was starting out, I know how eager and excited I was, so, yeah, maybe selfishly, like, I want to hire that I want to hire, you know, you know, people that are excited to be around this, because I love it, you know, I love it so much I want to be around other people that love it. And it's like there's so many people that do care and want to make entertainment, and they're passionate about it that, like, I don't want to hire people that are just there looking at it as a paycheck. You know,

Dave Bullis 33:28
Yeah, yeah, you can. You can teach somebody how to do a job, but you can't teach them how to be a good person. Totally, yeah, which is something I've learned too, because I made the mistake one time. Phil is, should I call you Phil or Philip? What you prefer.

Phillip Andrew 33:40
Hey, whatever feels right, man. I jump back into, you know, what? People ask me that all the time, and I joke, like, when I hit 30, I was like, I guess I'm Phillip. Now, you know, or somebody, somebody told me the other day on set, they were like, well, once somebody, like, once someone is your superior, you call them Phillip. And I go, I don't know how this is going. Like, I or I'll say, if you're from the UK, you have to call me Phillip, because it just sounds better in that accent. But no man, Phil, Phillip, whatever is easiest, whatever works. Man, it's all good.

Dave Bullis 34:08
Yeah. Definitely Phillip sounds better with a British accent, I will admit that. But everything sounds better with the British accent. So very true on set. You know what? I have. Everyone call me. I have. Everyone call me bullous, because that's every, yeah, all my friends call me Bullis everywhere, and they're just like, bullets. I'm like, yeah, just call me Bullis. Don't call me Dave or David. That's fine, and just call me Bullis.

But because it's a it's a strong name, you don't say I'm like, it's a great, it's a great last name. What's the, what's the background, what's the, what's your family's heritage?

So on my mom's side, it's Swedish and Irish, and on my dad's side, it's English, particularly from Wales, and that's actually where the last name comes from, by the way, it's English. I mean someone who tends bulls and and if you can, believe it or not, I don't know if you ever seen me, but I actually have a my my dad's grandmother was 100% Cherokee Native American. And so if you look at me, I look like the whitest guy on the planet. So, but like, technically speaking, I'm like 10 to 15% Cherokee? Oh, no way. Yeah, but, but I don't look like it at all. I think the I look much like an Irish, English guy.

Phillip Andrew 35:31
That's cool, man. I love that. I always love. I don't know why I'm always fascinated with with that type of stuff, like where, you know, like heritage and things like that. I'm, I'm 50% I'm 50% Well, we're all kind of a mix of things, but I only claim to and so, yeah, I'm Polish, and I'm Romanian, and on my this this past year, I took a trip, and I did a little mini DJ tour through Europe. But while I was doing that, I also got a chance to do I went to meet some family in Poland for the first time. In Warsaw, Poland met some cousins, and got to meet them for the first time in person. And then I went to Romania. And I went to the little villages, the two little villages in Transylvania, which I guess I didn't even realize that was a real place. I kind of thought it was just made up. But so I went to Transylvania, where my great grandparents were born and raised before they moved to the US. And, man, it was just cool. Like, you know, I had one of those moments where, you know, and I was getting all emotional, you know, just because I had been there, you know, I had been on the road for like, you know, three weeks, four weeks, and I'm on the road that connected the two little villages, you know, and I'm like, Oh my goodness. Like, I can, you know, for the first time in in my life, like my great grandparents no longer seemed like these old dead people, but they were these, like, Oh man, I can picture the like, the 19 year old version of my or the 19 year old great grandpa, Grandfather walking this road to go see this woman he just met. And like, I don't know, it gave me such a like, I love that history, and it's just really, it's, I don't know, I guess I'm getting I'm getting more emotional in my as I'm getting older. I don't know, but it was just really cool. I love, I love that idea of, like, understanding where, where we come from, in the history of our families and whatnot. We've totally gotten off the topic of production. But you know, that's what happens with me sometimes,

Dave Bullis 37:21
No, no. So it's all good. I have a tendency to do that to people. People go on this podcast all the time, Philip, and they're just like, Dave, I just have a tendency to ramble when I'm talking to you. I don't know what it is. I go, that's a good sign. I take that as a compliment, a very high compliment, totally Yeah. But yeah, you know, you always want to know where you come from. Eventually, you know? And it's a funny story, because I actually was gonna reach out to some of my relatives in Wales, and then I was just watching this British show called Black Books. And Black Books was kind of like, it wasn't really a hit, but it was. It was a fantastic show. And this one character named Fran, wants to get in touch with all her relatives, right? She's like, I've never seen these people before. I just want to, you know, connect with my family. And all they did was they basically used her as, like, some kind of, like, Pack Mule. And they were like, Oh, wow. They were like, Oh, you have a car, we need a ride somewhere. All you have money, we need some money. All you have a house, we need to move in. It's like, and she goes, I'm so sorry I ever did this. And I just kind of thought to myself, What if I reached out to some relatives, and it's all they did was basically try to, like, use me for anything they could.

Phillip Andrew 38:27
Oh, man, I think it's worth risking. You never know, but yeah, that's crazy. That would be Man, what's well, what's the one show the Sneaky Pete That's on? What is that on Netflix or on? I don't know what channel is on, but it's that idea. Rabisi is the, the lead, and is, yeah, did that idea that he, you know, came in and he convinces this family that he's someone else. And that's that was scripted, but that was actually, there was a show. I don't know if you ever saw it. My my buddy, Phil, lot, it's funny. We bring him up. He actually did a he did a documentary a few years ago called imposter. And if you guys haven't seen it, it's in it is fascinating. And it's about this guy who, you know, convinces this family that he is this missing child from years and years and years ago, and he he gets into this family. And it's the whole story of him, like infiltrating their lives and why they think that they want it. Oh, man, it's just, it's really, like you're watching it, you know, I love documentaries that I watch and I go, this is there's no way this is real. You know. Like, how did this happen? Like, I think, you know, the the two strongest, I'm sure there's many more, um, you know, I'm oversimplifying, but like when I watch documentaries, the two amazing things that I always notice is, like a if I'm sitting there and I'm going, Whoa, there's no way this is real. I'm waiting for them to say, This is bullshit. How is this even possible?

That always catches my attention, and then I think it's so amazing in documentaries when it's totally just right time, right you know, right time, right place. You know those documentaries that start out about one thing, and then something crazy happens in just by chance, in the time that they were filming. And then it's and then all of a sudden, you're, you're capturing all these other things, like, Have you, have you seen, have you been watching Flint town on Netflix at all? No, I haven't. So Flint town, it's all about Flint, and obviously the Flint water crisis and all of those things. But, you know, the fascinating thing was just they were there when they went there to kind of do the Flint water crisis, and what was happening in Flint with the water and then, but they were embedded with, like the the police force, the flint police force. And then while they're there, was when we started having all of these, all of these cases coming up about police brutality, and, you know, some of the deaths and things like that. And so it was, so you know, to be able to be there documenting police officers as they are experiencing and as they're learning about these things, and seeing their reactions, and then being able to compare that to how we were reacting, as, you know, as as people in society, it was just, it really was fascinating, because it's one of those things where you're like, they weren't late to the story, you know, like they weren't trying to catch up, like they were catching it as it was happening. And I think that's what makes, I don't know, for me, that's what makes a lot of that stuff really, really exciting.

Dave Bullis 41:39
Yeah, it's, I love movies and TV shows where, you know, characters, like a pathological liar, like, like, American Psycho that, that example, you know, even stuff like, you know, some of the other stuff that's come out, where just find, like, the character is just a, you know, just a complete, come, you know, pathological or compulsive liar, and the TV show, what was it called? It wasn't, I can't want to say Firefly, but that wasn't right. But there was a TV show where the the character basically took the role of a, of a of a sheriff. He took over his identity. It's Chris. What the hell is it? I forget it, but basically he and the Banshee, that's what it's called, Banshee. Oh yeah, yeah, okay, so, so he took over the his whole life, and basically said, I'm the new sheriff, and this and that. So that, that, that that was actually pretty cool, you know, pretty good as well. But, you know, a lot of these shows now, there's so many different channels and stuff like that. There's YouTube, there's Netflix, there's Hulu, there's all this, all these channels. You know, this is the golden age of TV, but it's also incredibly segregated on all these different channels.

Phillip Andrew 42:48
Yeah, it's, it's crazy. There's so much, there's so much going on. And I think it's, you know, we joke. We've been joking for the last couple years. Like anybody that tells you they know what's going on is full of shit.

Dave Bullis 43:00
But what William Goldman said, right?

Phillip Andrew 43:03
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's tough, man. I mean, it's, you know, I will say, like, I've been lucky to work on, on some, you know, some Netflix shows and some YouTube Red shows. We're actually, I'm really excited. I'm gonna humble brag here for a second. One of the shows that I, that I helped produce, is up for a Daytime Emmy right now. So we find out at the end of the month if we won this Daytime Emmy, which would be just really cool to be, you know, and it's for outstanding educational programming. So it's like to be able to we did a show called minefield, which was all about science and psychology with a with a great guy named uh Michael Stevens, who runs a YouTube channel called V sauce. And it was like to be able to create a show that is educational and entertaining, to where you know that you're to know that you're reaching kids and people in general. But he has, you know, a younger audience like to know you're being able to reach and educate kids that are hungry to learn. You know, I think there's this, there's this stereotype that kids these days don't want to learn and all they want to do is play on their social media. And I mean, our channel shows, and there's a lot of there's a lot of educational programming out there on YouTube that kids can't get enough of. And I think it's really encouraging to see so many kids that are interested in science and interested in math, and they want to learn, and they want to figure things out in psychology. And I think it's really, it's really special, so that, I digress, but yeah, with all of the networks, it's hard, man, it's really hard to know what's going to survive. You know it because, you know, the internet has created a nice, beautiful, new place where it doesn't need to be 22 minutes exactly. It doesn't need to be 44 you don't have to have the ACT breakdown at the exact spot for the commercial break. You don't need to, you know, networks, you know online, they don't have to guarantee 24 hours of programming. Every single day, like a lot of the stuff do on cable. So it's opening the doors for some flexibility, and there's gonna be a lot of shake up, and there's gonna be some winners, and there's gonna be some losers, and it's gonna take a little bit more time for us to figure out how everything is gonna shake out. But I think there's, it's like anything right, like you can either look at the problem of it, or you get out in front of it and see the possibilities and the opportunities, and know that we're at a space now where you want, if you want to create something, if you really want to create something, there's no excuse. There's really no excuse for not creating in in this day and age with the accessibility to cameras, the accessibility to editing, to music, to if you want to be there is no there. Now it's difficult to be seen. That's true. It's there's a lot of clutter, there's a lot of noise. It is not the easiest thing in the world to get attention, but if you have a CR, if you're feeling, if you have creativity inside of you that you want to get out, that you don't, and you feel like you don't have the resources, you are not utilizing your resources, because there is so much to get out there. And if you want to be creative, there's no excuse for not being creative in this day and age.

Dave Bullis 46:21
Yeah, it's like, Hey, man, this podcast is something I started to just to be creative. You know, I started this a few years ago, just to be creative. And the barrier to entry to starting a podcast is literally so low now you can so low. You could start one on your phone with the with, like a pod, with the pod bean app, which is why my host, they actually, if you launch the app, you can start recording a podcast even through the app. So you don't even need another app for that, and you can edit it right there and then upload it. And there you go,

Phillip Andrew 46:51
Which and I think that's why, that's why you know, as we start to wrap up here and we bring it back home, I think that's why the power of the story is so important, because now where you do have a lot of competition, because the barriers of entry into a YouTube channel, into a podcast, into a short film, the barriers of entry are so low, but people Still have a high expectation of content. So if you are making, you know, you can buy a $200 gimbal for your iPhone that you already have in your pocket, and you can buy a little recording device for the audio, and you can make a pretty damn good video for 300 bucks, if you got the right people that are willing to help and work on it, and then you can do some really great stuff, but if you do not have a story, if you don't have a compelling reason why anyone should even listen or watch or care about your project, it's going to be very difficult to get any type of visibility with it. So I think that's why I, you know a lot of the kids, and I see that now, a lot of kids coming out of school, or certain schools, or whatever they they'll send me their stuff, and I'm like, cool. It looks great. You understand that if you shoot it in high speed, and you're shooting 60, 120 frames per second, and you slow it down behind some very epic feeling motivational music that it's gonna look cool and look cinematic. Yes, you nailed that. But what do you want me to do now? You know, what is your call to action? You do you want me to open my my wallet and pay you money? Do you want me to call my mother and tell her I love her because I haven't talked to her? Do you want me to cry and miss an ex? What in the hell do you want me to feel now? And I think that that is something that we as as storytellers, as filmmakers, at television show creators, podcasters, we have to understand, like, what is it that we want to what? How are we serving that's what I'll say. How are we serving our viewer? And if we don't have an answer for that, if we don't know what our viewer is going to get out of what we're giving them, then we probably don't have strong product, you know? And it's and then we've just, we've we've created, we've created content that doesn't that's never going to really resonate with anybody because it we didn't think about who was going to consume it. We didn't even care. So I think now nowadays, we have to be that much more disciplined and intentional about understanding what we want to create and who we want to create it for, and then how are we going to do it with a great, powerful story, and then executing that? Because it's not it's just not enough anymore to just throw it up online and hope it gets found. You know,

Dave Bullis 50:04
Yeah, that's very true. I think those days of kind of like throwing that Hail Mary pass are pretty much, I don't want to say they're over. I don't want to be definitive, but I it's a lot harder now, because there's just, there's just so much content being made, you know, and there's just so much stuff being on there that the probability of anything like that happening is just so low. Now it's probably less than 1% but, you know, I know we're winding down, Phil, so just in closing, is there anything that you wanted to, wanted to say to sort of put a period at the end of this whole conversation?

Phillip Andrew 50:38
You know, I guess the first thing you know, the the annoying social media plug, I'll say, you know, you guys can find me on, on, you know, Facebook, Instagram, all that stuff at Philip, Andrew, LA, I have an email account. I'd love for you guys to email me if you have any specific questions, whether that's wanting to work together on a project, or if you're, if you're listening this, and you're young and you're still in school and you just want some advice, I'm always willing to help as much as possible. So reach out. It's Philip, Andrew [email protected] so please connect with me. I'd love to, I would love to talk with you guys any way that I can and help out anyway. I think my last you know, what would be my? What would be my? My takeaway from all of this is, you know, it's if you're listening to this in your you know, I think we already talked about some stuff for for people that are younger in their careers, about getting started and how to do that, and we talked a lot about that. If you're listening to this and you're interested in production or TV or film or podcasting or any, any type of that creative stuff, and you are struggling to either get things going, or maybe your career isn't exactly where you want it to be, or you want to be doing more. You know, I always love this phrase, you know, it's like, it's never too late to be what you might have been. And we get caught up in our heads about where we're supposed to be in life, and what success we should have had at this point, how much money we should be. We have these expectations. And the truth is, you know, we're just you all we have is today, and that's all that we have. And we don't know what's coming tomorrow. We don't know what's going to go ahead. You know what's gonna happen, how life is gonna shake out, so go for it. Just make a decision. Make a decision of what you really want. You know if you want to, if you haven't written that script, if you haven't worked on any film set, if you haven't worked on one in three years, if you know what, no matter how big or small your your situation is, all I'll say is just get moving on it. It's it's all a big thing is just making the decision of what you want to do. And then also one, one thing I love to say is like, write it down. And write it down. Write down that goal. If it's to make X amount more money next year, if it's just to have X amount of episodes of your podcast done, if it's to create some whatever your goal is, be definitive. You know, you've got to have some clarity for your for the purpose, and then what's the action involved, you know? And so I think that's really important is, is figure out what you want and write it down, and then start taking the steps towards it so that you're able to achieve that thing. And it's never too late. It's never too late to be what you might have been. And you're never you're never too young for something. You're never too old for something it all had like, those are just lies that you're allowing that are preventing you from really getting into stuff. So so go after it. If you guys are creative, and number one, I appreciate you guys. If you're still listening this long to me, go on and on, I greatly appreciate it. And I really hope that you'll send me an email and let me know. But yeah, just keep going figure it out. Be very intentional about what you want. Write it down and then get out there and start making it happen.

Dave Bullis 54:11
And that is an excellent way Phil to end the interview on that note. Everybody I will link to everything that Phil and I talked about in the show notes at davebullis.com Twitter. It's at dB podcast, and my personal Twitter is at Dave_Bullis and Phil. I want to say thank you so much for coming on, man. Again, we were two strangers who met on the internet. And to bring you back, right?

Phillip Andrew 54:35
I love it. No, I greatly, I greatly appreciate it. I'm only going to call you Bullis from here on out. I love it. It's a great last name. I'm so and I'm a big fan now, man, so you let me know any way that I can ever help out, any way I ever can be of service to you, my friend like, feel free always reach out. We are now friends, bonded through the interwebs and and I greatly appreciate you letting me go. Come on and and hear my voice so.

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BPS 379: The Art of Being a Military Advisor on Set with Jariko Denman

August 8, 2024 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Jariko Denman was born in Washington DC and, as a military brat, grew up all over the world. In 1997 he enlisted in the US Army. After basic training and Airborne School, he completed the assessment and selection process for the 75th Ranger Regiment and was assigned to the 2nd Ranger Battalion at Ft Lewis, Washington. Jariko went on to serve in the Ranger Regiment for 15 and a half years. Jariko deployed to combat 15 times in Iraq and Afghanistan from 2002-2012 as a Weapons Squad Leader, Rifle Platoon Sergeant, and Ranger Company First Sergeant, amounting to 54 months of total combat experience as part of a Joint Special Operations Task Force.

Jariko Retired from active duty in 2017 after four years as the Senior Military Science Instructor at St. John’s University in New York City and now lives in Los Angeles. Since Retiring he has advised on several major motion pictures, national ad campaigns, and television series’ as well as continuing to train and work within government and tactical industries.

Enjoy my conversation with Jariko Denman.

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 0:26
I like to welcome to the show Jariko Denman. How you doing Jariko?

Jariko Denman 0:40
I am great. Thanks for having me on.

Alex Ferrari 0:42
Hey, man, thanks for coming on brother you you are a unique guest to the show because I've never had a a filmmakers last soldier slash media slash Ayahuasca taker and so many other things. You know, when the when you're when our mutual friend connected us. I just felt fascinated by your story in general man and I have all sorts of questions for you. So. And by the way, the best quote, I think that pretty much sums you up. If I may be so bold is one of your quotes, sir. I don't want to be rich or famous. I just want to be a fucking storyteller. pretty much sums it all up.

Jariko Denman 1:27
Yeah. Well, I've told some stories. And I'm pretty far from being rich or famous.

Alex Ferrari 1:30
So is it then you're right on tracks? Are you right on your mission? You're on a mission. So So first question, how did you get involved in the military? How did you become an Army Ranger, all that kind of stuff?

Jariko Denman 1:45
Yeah, I got it. All I was I was an Army brat. So I grew up in a military household, my dad served over 20 years, he's a Vietnam vet. Desert Storm grenades and a few wars. So I just, you know, for me, it was kind of normal. He did want me to join the Air Force. So I got treated better than an army guy. But I, I pulled a fast one on when I joined the Army, just like just like he was in. So yeah, you know, growing up in a military family, it was kind of a natural pacing for me. I was you know, as a kid, though, I was pretty artistic, I drew a lot painted and stuff like that my dad really wanted me to go to art school. So I always did, I was always very creative. But I also wanted to go into military, I want to do get some adventure, I wanted to get out of my parents house, I hated school. So it was just a natural progression. It was either, you know, be a be Jeremiah Johnson living in the mountains or join the military. So I chose the military. And then my brother also joined the military, and we both you know, kind of went down the Ranger track, just a I'm not sure how familiar you are, but you know, not the number. The Ranger community, the Ranger Regiment is basically the only special operations unit. At that time, you know, I joined in the late 90s, it was the only special operations unit you could go to work or assess and select for off the street. So back then, at least when I went to the Navy recruiter, you couldn't get a buds or a seal contract, right, you had to join the Navy with some other job that they had assigned you. And then just hope that you were able to get to buds or assess for the SEAL teams. Same with the Air Force. Same with the Marine Corps. All those other branches basically said, Hey, you can come and be a cool guy. But you have to sign up for this and hope that we accept you into the selection process. Whereas to become a ranger, you walk in off the street and say, hey, I want to Ranger contract, which doesn't guarantee you're going to become a ranger. But it does guarantee that you will be given the opportunity to assess and select or assess and be selected. So that was the reason that basically the whole reason I became an Army Ranger is because it was the only one you could sign up to go directly to the selection.

Alex Ferrari 4:04
So what I mean, I've heard I mean, obviously the seals is the legendary selection process. It's been talked about a lot, but I don't know a lot about the Rangers, which I hear. It's no joke.

Jariko Denman 4:16
Yeah, it's, you know, all all those selections are, you know, they're similar. They just, they choose different things by which to torture you with and they, you know, every selection process in the military or in the Special Operations community, it's just a series of gates through which you have to pass before you you know, you can call yourself whatever that may be. And, you know, in in buds, they use a lot of like maritime stuff swimming and, you know, Zodiac rafts and all these all these things, physical things, but most of them having to do with the water. Whereas, you know, the the selection pipeline for the Ranger Regiment is you know, it's very ground based it's it's a, the Ranger Regiment is known as most elite light infantry in the world. So every gate we pass through is an assessment in your skills in that in that environment, right? So you go through so when I went in you, you go to you join the army, you go through basic training as an infantry man. You go to Airborne School jump school where you learn how to jump out of a plane, which is, it's like a little break, honestly. Not not a hard school. And then you go to a thing that is now called rasp, the Ranger assessment selection program. It's an eight week course. And it's just physical and, you know, academic tests that test your mettle in, you know, doing ground combat, right. So, patrolling in the woods, doing raids, recon ambush. And then just like physical things, ruck, marches, runs, you know, PT events. And one of the big differences in being a ranger and being in a couple of these other units is in the regiment we have, I'll refer to it as the regiment because you know, it is, and, but at the end of that process, you basically you're assigned to a Ranger Battalion. But a difference with us is, once you're assigned to the Ranger Battalion, that's when we say, Okay, you're three raste. Now the hard part starts, right. So you get placed in kind of a, an unofficial probationary status. Much like a, you know, a probationary firefighter, their first year on the job, they do anything wrong, they're gone, right? So you have that same kind of environment as a new guy in the Ranger Regiment. And then there's kind of a confusing thing for a lot of people you go to, you then go to Ranger School, right? Which is a school run by the training detachment of the US Army. It's a it's an army school. It isn't necessarily a special operations course. It's it's very old school, but it's another gate, right? And in order to become a leader, or really to survive past a year in the Ranger Regiment, you have to complete Ranger School. So all in you know, your pipeline is around a year and a half. From off the street to then getting there and being like, Okay, I am a an established Ranger. So, you know, Ranger School is it's mainly it's a leadership course. That's what they say. But they basically don't let you sleep and they don't let you eat and they have you patrol for, you know, two and a half months. Constant raid recon ambush patrols throughout carrying about 100 pound rucksack in three different phases, you do your first phase in Fort Benning, Georgia, she's just kind of like, run of the mill woods. And then you go to mountain phase, which is in Salonika, Georgia, North Georgia, which is the base of the Appalachian Trail. So pretty, pretty legit mountains there, you do patrols there, and then you go to Florida, and you do what's called, like, Florida phase or swamp phase, and you're in the swamps for the last last little bit there. And then hopefully, you graduate and you know, you can get recycled, dropped all those things. So it lasts anywhere from about two and a half months to if you're just not a lucky fella, you can be there for you know, a long time.

Alex Ferrari 8:31
So it's it's just like filmmaking, but different. Yeah,

Jariko Denman 8:34
yeah. You know, it's, I found a lot of parallels in the in the film community. I think you're making a joke, but

Alex Ferrari 8:41
I know, I know. I know. There isn't. I mean, I've been a director for almost 30 years. i It's always I always looked at it as very much like a, like a military unit even though I'd never been in the military. But from from watching and understanding and just studying what that's like, you know, seeing just movies, you just go oh, this seems like a group of guys or group of people trying to make something happen. Different departments, central leadership, and and then there's sub leadership's all around and you just got to keep going. And it's and it's, you just move into an area that wasn't there before. Generally speaking, occupied by force. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. I always say we're carnies. You just put up tents, we should do a show. And then the car he pulled the tents down, and then you're off? Because I don't know about you. If, if you've met any people in the industry that are very corny, like,

Jariko Denman 9:28
yeah, it's I mean, that's one of the things that attracted me to the film history too, is it's a very kind of nomadic lifestyle. Like you're not nomadic in the sense that you don't have a home but like, you get to go all over the place. You get to go see, you know, I don't know a lot of other things being like, Oh, I'm gonna go live in New Orleans for three months. You know, it's great. I think it's

Alex Ferrari 9:46
going to New Zealand for six months or a year so I'm like, they had some things like that is Yeah, it is a very, it's a sexy business. On the outside, and the inside Isn't that so much. So one thing I you know, there's a lot of misconception Since about military and soldiers and you know, especially in the world that we live in today, what's the biggest misconception that you you feel that people have of military of soldiers of, you know, people, you know, going out there and doing their job? Yeah, I think

Jariko Denman 10:20
that's a really good question. The biggest misconceptions, I'd say, is just it's kind of like how society in general is right now. Right? Like, as a veteran, I find myself either completely lionized, like, oh, man, you're you. If you fart, it doesn't stink to two being completely demonized, like, oh, man, that guy's probably got PTSD. He's probably crazy, you know, that type of thing. So it's just that I'd say that the biggest, you know, misconception is like, we're not Jason Bourne, you know, but we're also not Travis Bickle. You know? Like, they. We live in the middle there somewhere. Right.

Alex Ferrari 11:01
Basically, exactly. Because movies have not helped us the stereotype. They used to they go to the extreme, most movies. Exactly. I mean, other than full metal jacket.

Jariko Denman 11:12
Right? Yeah. I think within my community, the thing I often battle with is like I volunteered, I really enjoyed my time in the military. I loved it. I liked deploying, I liked doing missions. I liked I liked it. So was there was there some degree of sacrifice? Absolutely. But they're, they're ones that I chose, you know, like, yeah, I missed a bunch of birthdays. And I didn't do this and that, but I also got to do some really, really, really cool stuff that not a lot of good people get to do.

Alex Ferrari 11:42
And you get to play with some pretty pretty gnarly toys.

Jariko Denman 11:46
Yeah, yeah, that too. Um, I've never really been a gun guy or a gear guy or whatever. I just like kind of like whatever they give me out of the armory, I'll take it and use it and, but there are a lot of there are a lot of people in the military that they're really into that. So like, every day they come to work. They're like, Oh, this is awesome. I get this, you know, widget or this rocket or this, whatever. And I was like, Whatever, man, it's just Wednesday to me, you know?

Alex Ferrari 12:10
Now, you, you said you enjoyed your time in the military? Apparently you did? Because you had is it 54 months? of

Jariko Denman 12:17
combat? Yeah, that's correct. That's it was the

Alex Ferrari 12:21
15. Tours.

Jariko Denman 12:23
Yeah, 15 tours. So in, in in the regiment, you know, we were part of the Special Operations community. So our deployments weren't as long. So a conventional army unit usually deployed 12 to 15 months for deployment. But just because of our op tempo, or operational tempo, we were like, hit it so hard, and did so much. Our deployments were generally shorter. So my, you know, deployments, those of those 15, those were anywhere from like, 60 to 180 days each, they weren't years long. But when you add them all up, it's yeah, they're about four and a half years, or however long that is difficult.

Alex Ferrari 13:02
So, you know, being in the military, as long as you haven't seen as much combat as you have, what do you think, is the mentality that you need to have in order to survive, that kind of, you know, that kind of nut trauma, but just that whole, the whole thing? I mean, there's a special kind of human that goes into that, like, I can't comprehend going into that, even though I'm a filmmaker, I can pretend it. But like, it's, there's a certain mindset, there's a certain mentality that that you need to have, what do you what's your experience? And what do you think it

Jariko Denman 13:32
is? So another good question. So I'm almost like you do this for a living?

Alex Ferrari 13:39
It's not my first rodeo, sir.

Jariko Denman 13:43
No, yeah. I think I think it's finding whatever your motivation is, and it's different for everyone. You know, for me, as corny as it sounds, for me, it was it was service. Not so much a grandiose service to our nation. While that did come in, you know, as a youngster, but for me, it was in and these are all cliches, but cliches come from somewhere. It was service to the people with me, I, I never wanted to, you know, punch out and then, you know, find out on the next appointment, one of my friends got hurt or killed. So it was it was kind of a, you know, almost a selfish act. It's like a FOMO kind of thing. You know, you get on these deployments, you start, you know, stacking up accolades, you start to develop a reputation and you just, you just want to keep, you know, feeding the beast. It can also be a bit of an addiction. Yeah, so, while I was well, I would love to say it was like, oh, man, I really I it was it was 50% motivation to do it again and 50% fear of missing out on the next one.

Alex Ferrari 14:58
That's that's a really interesting because I've heard that from from, you know, other military people, I've seen that it's just kind of like, it's an adrenaline rush, like you're on, on like a high adrenaline high all the time. Like, you can't rest when you're on deployment almost to a certain extent, if I'm not if I'm not mistaken.

Jariko Denman 15:18
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, now we're finding, there's like, a lot of physiological effects of that. We're in, you know, like, just the hyper vigilance and, you know, a lot of hormonal things that have that have happened to guys just because it takes, you know, it takes a long time to unpack that and, like, reverse the effects of that. But absolutely, you're, you're, you're in that environment all the time. And you're just like, you kind of need it. After a while.

Alex Ferrari 15:43
It's yeah, it's almost like yeah, it's it's from what I hear and from what I've heard, that a lot of soldiers have been out into deployment, they say, Look, I'm I'm not fighting for my country. I'm fighting for the my brother next to me. Absolutely. Yeah. That's, that's basically because, you know, there's the macro. And then there's the micro of what you're fighting for. And you're like, right now, I can't think of the macro. I'm thinking about these guys next to me, this this my unit?

Jariko Denman 16:08
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, you, you also really don't have time to think about like, the macro, you know, kind of the tactical level, like, Okay, we're gonna go out and raid this house or raid this place. Like, you're like, oh, actually, should we like are? You don't have time for that. So it does you you really circle the wagons with the group you're with, and do the best job you can and hope that it's all chipping away at the Great, the greater good. But it doesn't So

Alex Ferrari 16:42
fair enough. Now, you know, from from my research on you, I did hear that you, you took Ayahuasca now I, I've been fascinated with that, that stuff. I haven't taken any, nor do I plan on taking it. But I'm always I always love asking people what they saw. Because from what I understand, it is not only trippy, but it's like and I've gotten deep into the psilocybin and all of that stuff that it's kind of in the similar BLT, and all that stuff. It opens up doorways in your mind that you can't even comprehend. I love to hear straight from the horse's mouth, no pun intended, sorry.

Jariko Denman 17:21
Absolutely, yeah, if I were to describe it, say indescribable. But you know, I've had a few years now to sit with it. And I do, I do a lot of work with plant medicine and with with psychedelics, in general, I think they're really, really good. When done intentionally, I think there are a lot of people that are running from their problems with them. But when done with intention, you know, not only the the spiritual changes in myself, but also the physiological changes that can be proven through science. You can't argue with it. But as far as things I saw, like the big takeaway for me, and the thing that I think, I will say openly the like, I think I want to save my life. Not in that I was gonna go kill myself. But I was just miserable. I was just a miserable person. I couldn't experience happiness. I couldn't, I couldn't. I couldn't meaning I couldn't connect with people in a meaningful way. But I can now and I credit Ayahuasca with fat and what it really did for me, the thing that I can like, really take out of it is that it put me into such amazingly dark places like fear and terror and, and just bad stuff. indescribably bad, like, really feeling that, and then being able to pull myself out of it, in my own mind, gave me back the power to feel how I want to feel, if that makes sense. Oh,

Alex Ferrari 18:55
it makes it makes all the sense in the world. It seems like it's from what I've heard it just like it does open up, different consciousness opens up. Like if your consciousness is normally this way, you have a window of opportunity of maybe a few if it's like a few hours, if I'm not mistaken, like this. And that's a lot that comes in and it's all personalized. It's not like everyone, we're all going to McDonald's. Now everyone has their own own experience in that time period.

Jariko Denman 19:22
Yeah. Yeah. And it's, I mean, like, when you when you talk about it being indescribable, it's like, you know, there was no sense of time no sense of space, absolute. Just being in not even being it is it's very hard to explain, but again, once you once you're in there and your mind can kind of like navigate your way out. It gives you this power again to you know, I still I still get in bad moods. I'm still sad. I'm still angry, but now I'm like, Okay, I'm feeling angry. Is this like a? Is this a, a logical response to what's going on right now? Yes, it is. Okay. Okay, good. You know, whereas before, you know, I would put myself in a loop of like anger and depression and anger and depression. And I'm able to kind of pull myself out of that.

Alex Ferrari 20:19
So it's kind of like it almost simulates the darkest parts of your soul in many ways, and allows you to figure your way back out of that. So it's almost a training in, in a virtual environment. It's almost like virtual VR training of the soul. And then you come back out, you're like, is that good? Good? It's

Jariko Denman 20:39
a very good way of putting it. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, one of the kind of physiological ways of how to explain to me because it's a very spiritual experience, but I'm also like, I like to figure things out, you know. So the way it's kind of been explained to me is, you know, when, when our, when our brains experience trauma, when we experience trauma, whether it's childhood, or adult trauma, our brain is a is a living being that figures out, okay, I'm going through this, I'm just going to like, you know, if there's a pathway between here and here, my brain just says, Okay, I don't like it here, I'm gonna go around this spot. Right. So then we will have these coping mechanisms for our traumas, whether it's, you know, not feeling safe as a kid or experiencing, you know, a blunt trauma of seeing something really bad, our brain shuts off certain pathways. Those pathways, however, are very necessary for our brains to work and for us to be at our true top for himself. So what I Alaska does, or a lot of psychedelics do is they go back in, and they turn those pathways back on. But in doing so, we have to re experience whatever level of trauma there was, that made that turn off. Like the brain remembers, and it puts us back through it. But then we come out and they're turned back on and we have a better brain for it.

Alex Ferrari 21:57
Sure, it basically goes in and rewires you, in many ways. It's kind of like the the groove in the in the record, there was a scratch, they went in and made that right out and made that connection again.

Jariko Denman 22:08
Exactly. Yeah. And, you know, I'm not a scientist or anything, but I like that way.

Alex Ferrari 22:13
It's very scientific. That's, that's proven science or the record theory. So you mentioned something a few times in our conversation, the spirituality aspect of it. And I've heard that as well. What did you when you walked in? Were you a very spiritual person? Or when you walked out? Did you become more spiritual? Did you see something in there that just made sense to you? Because I've heard many different scenarios.

Jariko Denman 22:41
I wouldn't call myself spiritual I do. A there's somebody up there pulling the strings on something, right? But I can't put my finger on it. I'm not a religious person never have been I wasn't raised that way. You know, I do feel I do feel a really strong bond to the earth, you know, like with nature, with animals, but as far as I wouldn't describe myself as a spiritual person. And I think if anything coming out of it, I feel a stronger bond at the Mac, like talking macro level, like to the universe, like I, I absolutely think that we are a speck in, in in something. So, you know, I feel like coming out of that I was in some places, whether it was in my mind only or not that or, you know, I recognize that there's a lot bigger of a there's an indescribably big something out there. And I can't ignore that anymore. So it just kind of universal rather than spiritual. Maybe

Alex Ferrari 23:46
you've been either you mean you could say either one really because it means spiritual has a connotation to it. And understanding that there's your greater part of a larger universe is in many ways a spiritual, a spiritual thing. It just all depends on how you look at it. And it sounds to me that it also kind of humbled you and humbled the ego a bit because when you say we are a speck, that is diminishing the ego. Dramatically.

Jariko Denman 24:12
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there is yeah, no ego left coming out of coming.

Alex Ferrari 24:19
I mean, the hell out of Yeah. Oh,

Jariko Denman 24:21
yeah. The first ceremony you know, you call them ceremonies. I did four

Alex Ferrari 24:25
did four ceremonies.

Yes, you did. Because that's who you are.

Jariko Denman 24:31
I'm telling you that after coming out of that first one, I was like, I mean, just like bug eyes like I don't know how I'm gonna do that again. Like I was

Alex Ferrari 24:40
you how long of time did you have between?

Jariko Denman 24:43
I did. So did four ceremonies. I did one one night one the next night, took a day off and then did two more. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 24:54
You are a soldier brother. That's me. That's a mental that's that's a military mentality. to this thing, like you're like, I don't care. It's it almost killed me the first time. Screw it.

Jariko Denman 25:04
I'm going back in. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I've I've talked to you know, I get a lot of questions from people in the in the veteran community about ayahuasca and I kind of tell people, the best time to go into it as if you've got nowhere else to go, it's best to do it when you kind of feel like you are out of options. Because I was able to, you know, with a lot of a lot of turbulence, obviously given to it, and just say, hey, like, Here I am, like, you can kill me if you want to do whatever, but I am at your mercy. Basically,

Alex Ferrari 25:39
you You surrendered, which is not in your nature is a general statement, which is fascinating because you as a soldier, you're not built to surrender. But in that environment in the iOS basket, it pushes you to a place where you like, I'm done. I have and that's basically spirituality. If you give up you'd be like, fine, I just go, take me. And then then you come back from that, and it even changes you forever. And I understand that. So many PTSD and traumas are being saved or being like with one or two doses of psilocybin or peyote or ayahuasca, these kinds of psychedelics are doing some really amazing things politically, like they're doing it clinically, too.

Jariko Denman 26:25
Yeah, there's, there's people out there doing really, really amazing work with it. There's a couple of, you know, veteran, nonprofits out there that are setting veterans up with, with ceremonies, like very responsible ceremonies, you know, there's, there's a lot of there's a lot of weirdos out there. You know, like, Ayahuasca in the basement in West Hollywood. Like, that's not where you want to go. But

Alex Ferrari 26:48
I used to live in elixir. I understand exactly what you're talking about. I've I've heard of these. Hey, man, we're gonna go do Ayahuasca in West Hollywood. I'm like, you let me know how that works out for you. Yes, I don't want to go to Iowa, Tosca and walk out into West Hollywood. Oh, man, that would be that'd be much rather be in the jungle. With a panther someone?

Jariko Denman 27:08
Yeah. Yeah. That's funny.

Alex Ferrari 27:11
So speaking of Hollywood, you go, you've gone you've lived a fairly exciting life. And then Hollywood comes a calling. And you get you get caught up in this insanity. That is Hollywood. As a as a military specialist, right? As a consultant, right? Yeah. At Tech advisor, so tell me why. And how did you get in.

Jariko Denman 27:35
Um, so I think the how became came before the Y, which was I was, you know, I was getting ready to retire. I was working, teaching college ROTC in New York City. And a friend of a friend who was a Navy guy, Seal Team guy, which seals kind of have Hollywood debt market corner right now. Advising thing it's, it's, it's very seal heavy. So friend of a friend got called for a job tech advising on a limited series by NatGeo called The Long Road Home. That series was about army guys in Sadr City Iraq. And just one major battle they had so this Navy guy got the job call for the job. And he's like, I don't know anything about the army and I'm not gonna be a shithead and take a job that I really am not qualified for. So he called another guy was like, hey, you know, he, this other guy had worked in the in the industry a little bit in like stunts and things like that, and helped out on set, you know, being a PA here and there. So he know the business a little bit, but he was also not necessarily a very experienced army guy. So he, he called me and said, hey, they allowed him to have a second guide just for pre Pro, just for you know, the table reads and the getting getting wardrobe and props and all that stuff together. So he called me because he knew I was getting ready tires. Like, Hey, you wanna come check this out? I know, you were in solder city, you really experienced guy you can help out. I'll handle the movie stuff. You just handle the army stuff. I was like, okay, so I went and did it. The pre pro thing and they they liked my work. So they say you can stay on for the run of the show. So I stayed on for the run the show doing tech advisor stuff. And you know, at this point, I was retiring. I knew that I didn't know what I was going to do when I grew up. So I was like, alright, I'll kind of pursue this. So you know that Navy guy, his name is Raymond Doza. He's tech advised and produced on a lot of thing. He just got done doing the run a show for terminal lists. He's got a great, you know, list of credits in that world. So he's like, yeah, man, I'll kind of champion you into the into the industry. Um, anytime I got a job, I'll bring you along, and we'll be a team. So, him and I just, you know, we worked several things kind of we had a deal like he called you eat what you kill. So we all went out and tried to, you know, you know, you know it is trying to get jobs, hustle, you, hustle, you hustle, yeah, you're on that hustle. So getting jobs, and then you'd get a job and be like, initial entry on the job like, Hey, I can't do this alone. And you bring another guy. And if they're, you know, if the penny pincher say, well, we only got room for one or like, all right, and it is what it is. So, you know, I did that for a long time, like, four years with Ray, you know, both of us on a project him doing a project alone, me doing a project alone. And, you know, once I was into it, I guess the Y comes is like, I really enjoyed it. It was like a really, because something I struggled with, in my, you know, transition out of the military in the civilian world is how do I take all this knowledge I have, I'm like, you know, I retired as a master sergeant, I am a master of this craft. How do I take all that knowledge and use it? You know, I don't want that to be a waste. There are there are these intangible things of work ethic and leadership, and you know, these things that I've learned, but the actual skill set the things that I am an absolute master of how do I use those and not carry a gun anymore, right? This was it, it was alright, I can be, I can be creative, I can be engaged. And I can use these skills to like, make art and to help people, you know, bring their visions to life, and I loved it. And I loved how, you know, a set, it works like a military unit, there are people who do XYZ, they do those things they perform, or they don't work, you know, reputation carries you along way in the industry. There were there were a lot of different things that once I did it, I was like, I really liked this. And that that was that was kind of my why it wasn't. I had to get into it to see it. But once I was there, I was like, Oh, this is this is what I want to do with my

Alex Ferrari 32:16
life. That's awesome. And it's, and you've worked on some pretty cool shows along the way. Without question I have to ask, though, because I've been in the business for few years. And you know, Hollywood actors, they tend to be a little flaky, sometimes a little bit soft. But they feel like they they pretend they forget that they're pretending to be a tough guy until they run into a tough guy. So off the record, you don't have to say names. You don't have to say a show. Have you ever had to check somebody? Have you ever had to say, Dude, you're gonna hurt somebody shut the EFF up.

Jariko Denman 32:56
Oh, yeah, I mean. Yeah. And that's a lot. That's one thing that's really good about Ray and I's relationship. I will tell her like, Hey, man, I don't fucking care if I get fired. Like, you're not gonna make me fucking look bad. You know? I don't like it is if you do take ownership of these projects, like, you know, one. One a thing that I'm on comes out. I'm I'm nervous, because my friends are gonna watch it and be like, would you let this do do that? Peer pressure? Yeah, yeah. But I will say and I get I get this question a lot from people from the military. They're like, Oh, man, Mark work with actors, all those primadonnas, like the most. I've had, I would say, 95% positive experiences. Because at the end of the day, they're actors, they want to look good, you know, and if you present yourself as a professional that can make them look good. They'll listen to you. There is one, there's one time when I would say like, I had to check someone and be like, Hey, shut the fuck up. And listen to me. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about? It happened? Yeah, and yeah, I won't name names.

Alex Ferrari 34:08
Off the record will when the camera stops recording will will turn I will say

Jariko Denman 34:11
he took very, like, he took this feedback very gracefully, and was like, You are absolutely right. I'm sorry. But he did have to get checked.

Alex Ferrari 34:22
Yes. Like the stories I hear of stunt coordinators and people who like, you know, play kung fu guys on screen. And they, they try to test the stunt guy who happens to be like a martial arts expert. And

Jariko Denman 34:33
yeah, you know, well, I will say to, you know, in doing what I do in the tech advisor world, some of my biggest issues are usually with stunt guys. Yeah, it's,

Alex Ferrari 34:46
you know what I think because I've had, I've had a lot of big stunt guys on the show, and I've worked with stunt guys. They're all nuts. I'm not sure it's nuts as you guys are, but it's nevertheless and I can imagine those two Hitting on a set must be interesting. Well, it's,

Jariko Denman 35:03
it's, I get it, it's, for me, I don't I don't have ego, I just want the movie to look good. You know, and I think what it is, is a lot of times, you know, when you're a stunt guy, if you're on an action movie, there's not usually a tech advisor on like an action movie, right? And I've done some action stuff that's like, sci fi centric, like, but I still want the people shooting to look right, you know, for their character or whatever. And they'll be like, oh, man, I was in such and such and I was in so and so. And it's like, Alright, great, man. I don't care that look. Yeah, watch that you looked fucking stupid when you're shooting a rifle. So listen to me. But, you know, for for the most part. stunt guys are great. There's and stunt coordinators are always awesome. They all I always have a very good working relationship with the coordinators. It's it's usually like the guys who have been steady for, you know, a year or two. And they're like, oh, man, I know. It's the egos. Yeah, I have a friend who was in Special Forces. I'm like, okay, cool. Like, I don't care.

Alex Ferrari 36:06
He's not here now. And I am.

Jariko Denman 36:09
I am. You're the guy that you're saying. Like I told you something like, I'm the same as them. So like, shut the fuck up and listen to me.

Alex Ferrari 36:17
Yeah, no stunt coordinators always because they have to be there. They're the leaders there. They're the majors. They're the masters of that of that craft. And if they screw up someone could get hurt or, or die. Yeah, so every stunt coordinator I've ever met, they're like, they're right on the money all the time. No messing around. But the stunt guys are the Hey, man, can I jump off that roof? I only need you on the fifth floor. But I want to do it off the 20th floor. I could do it off the 20th floor like the camera it I don't need it. But let me try it for my real. I'm like, No, fifth, fifth floor is fine.

Jariko Denman 36:46
That's definitely a guy. That's definitely a stunt guy that's been in the business for like less than five years. Right, exactly.

Alex Ferrari 36:51
And then there's the old guy who's been around 20 years, he's like, Dude off the third floor, and just move the camera over here like that. Throw the light over there. It's gonna look like it's on the seventh floor. And let's go. Now, during all of your, your tech advising, what was the most difficult day you've ever had to overcome? And how did you overcome it? either mentally or either just the day because you know how it is on a set, things don't go right things go off things, you know, the guns didn't show up that day, because they get stuck in traffic, something like that. What was that thing for you? I know, it's not. It's not like a director who's like the entire world's gonna come crashing down around you. But was there something really difficult that you were able to overcome? And how did you overcome it?

Jariko Denman 37:36
Yeah, I'd say, you know, when I, when I take advice for the outpost, there were just a lot of a lot of challenges in that I wouldn't put it to a day but like the pre production, you know, it was all Bulgarian crew, you know, doing it in Bulgaria a lot, a lot of like, additionally, doing it with a studio that wasn't used to doing kind of semi documentary style, like war movie, they're used to doing action, they're not used to doing war, totally different genre, which was kind of hard to explain to them at times. But, you know, there were there were producers and even, you know, studio guys who really understood that. But sometimes things would happen, you know, you'd get just the wrong guns, you know, or you know, one of the things that happened with that was like, the, it kind of worked differently over there with the crew and the, you know, the, the prop master was kind of handling a lot of stuff that like an armor would handle here. So he was just kind of out of control, like kind of an egomaniac and just didn't order me any ammo for training for the boot camp that the actors had to do. So just getting really creative in in because I had to produce you know, a good in product of these, these cast members being able to portray professional soldiers and you know, every step along the way during that process, I was just thrown you know, thrown resistance because and I'm not done at the end of the day I know that that guy was probably getting told some by some line producer somewhere like you don't need ammo for training let's just save it until the movie it's going to save us you know X number of dollars or whatever so yeah, it was it was getting through the pre production in that in that movie in a way that still accomplish the directors intent for what he wanted these these guys to step on set for day one. Acting and feeling like and it was it was i i had hardly any gray hair before I started that movie.

Alex Ferrari 40:00
In this industry, so this is you'll do that to that movie age. I'm 20 I'm 22 years old, sir, look at me. So I have to ask you though, man, you mean obviously you've seen movies over the years. You know, I see that you have Mr. Criminal is a criminal Hicks, a corporal Hicks, Corporal hex behind you. From aliens. You know, obviously Full Metal Jacket is considered one of the classics. What is the best? One of the best films that you think that really capture? What it's like to be in the military? Even if it's a sci fi movie? They did like they nailed it because I think I've heard aliens is pretty, pretty, like, Rock on.

Jariko Denman 40:40
I love aliens. So my favorite my favorite movie is platoon.

Alex Ferrari 40:47
I had Oliver. Yeah. That's, that's as real as it gets.

Jariko Denman 40:52
Yeah, I mean, there are you know, some technical aspects that are that are weird, but I wasn't in Vietnam also. So yeah, I think just the how it feels, it just feels just, it feels right. In the end, how they they really captured in platoon, they, they showed how you never really, at least in my experience, you'd never really hate your enemy. Like you hate your chain of command. Like you hate your leadership. Right. Right. Right. It showed that in a really thoughtful and beautiful way that like, yeah, these people are trying to kill us but our real enemy is this. And I love that about it. It also you know, it showed how many different walks of life people come from in the military, you know, and those people's strengths and like, you know, you have a you have Chris Taylor, who's a rich college kid and then you have guys you know, who are rednecks or who or whoever and they you see their strengths and their weaknesses and their their their scar tissue from home and their their fears and their hopes all coming together and that and that's what it's like it's it's it's a lot less your experiences they're a lot less focused on the enemy and then the actual fighting as they are in the in the in the mundane in the every day. And that's why I love platoon.

Alex Ferrari 42:32
Yeah, it's had Oliver on the show and we talked about amid the stories he told on Aronoff about how he got that thing made is it's it's insane

Jariko Denman 42:43
it's amazing anything anything that even has a with a patina on it all in jest. I've read all his books, like watched every behind the scenes like I love that. I love that movie. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 42:53
And there was once I think there's one story that I think it was one of the making of that the that all the all the actors are like coughing up a hill. And they were just dying because he treated them like soldiers. And then he just drove up on a Jeep just like smoking a cigar and just go into set. Yeah. And they're like, this is the frickin general here. This is horrible. And he hated he hated that they hated the command. They hate.

Jariko Denman 43:16
I mean, he nailed it. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 43:19
Yeah. You got to do it, man. No question. Now. I wanted to ask you about another bout another part of your life where you were on the ground level of Afghanistan when we were when we were leaving Afghanistan over a year ago. But you were like, right there. You were at the gates. You were at the airport. What?

What was that like, man?

Because all I saw, I mean, we all saw the video, we all saw the footage and we saw, you know, people crying and trying to escape, you know, before the Taliban came in? What was that like brother

Jariko Denman 43:50
in it? You know? So it was it was so we just like, I don't know if irony is the right word ironic is the right word, whatever. But I went through, you know, I did all these deployments to Afghanistan, I kind of came back I got the film history. And then, you know, between jobs and stuff, I was just kind of trying to find hustling. So I know schools and stuff. So I got into, you know, doing a little bit of freelance journalism, writing, writing articles, doing a little bit of stuff. And, you know, I was, you know, presented with the opportunity to go to to the gate to the airport during the evacuation, and I thought I was just going to go on a plane, land, watch a bunch of evacuees get on the plane and fly out. Well, then I got there and I realized like no one was going to keep me from getting off the plane. Like I anticipated there being military personnel on the ground. Like I was like, Shit, I'm gonna get off I'm gonna get a better story.

Alex Ferrari 44:49
Once a soldier always a soldier.

Jariko Denman 44:50
Yeah. And because of my background and the you know, the network I have, I was able to kind of get a little bit of a support network there of basically a room to go to and plug my phone into charge it and get a couple hours a rack and, but it was weird because I, you know, I'd spent years kind of deprogramming myself from the things that, like helped me survive there. And then I went back, and it was a lot of the experience was a lot more profound and raw. Right? gunfire and, and things like that were like, Oh, that's a big deal. You know, whereas before it was totally within context, it was never something that like raised my hackles or or got my, my heart rate going. Because it was in context, if that makes sense, like, I'm an award, this is what I'm supposed to doing. But then you go back and you're there with no, no rifle, you're there, you know, as a noncombatant, you don't really affect it, the experience just became a lot more profound. You're a lot more of a human in that not to say that, like, I was a sub human or something like that before, but I was there to do a very specific job and tasks. So I feelings didn't have a big part in my experience, right. But in at those gates, just seeing the, the scale of like human suffering, there was like a really big, profound time. You know, and it took me a little bit of time to unpack that and kind of, like, process it. And, you know, I'm healthy with it now. But, you know, I did have as, as my time there wore on, I was only there about a week. But you know, the first couple days, I was like, Alright, I'm gonna, I'm here to get a story. And then, you know, as you saw, probably in the news, like the evacuation thing started to happen. So people figured out I was there. And I started getting calls and texts and WhatsApp signal messages and, you know, hundreds of messages a day. Hey, my Herbert errors there, my, my so and so is there, whatever. So my, my, my focus shifted from just journalism to helping pull people through those gates. And, yeah, and I did that as long as possible. I had, you know, people on the ground there that were still in the military, I was talking to you, they're like, Hey, you gotta get the fuck out of here. You know, like, we're leaving. So you gotta go. So I left and I left. Kind of right in the nick of time, right before the bomb in that final bombing that happened. I left? About a half hour before that. Really? So you would have been in that area? Oh, yeah. That's where I spent, you know, 80% of my time that whole week was on that abrogate? So, yeah, it's it's crazy. You know, Korea is what movies are made of, you know, and it was everybody, you know, I I had that long Army career, but like, since I've been out I've been like, I'll be, I'll be perspective. Yeah. First, when I have this perspective, I'm like, What the fuck are like, What are you doing, bro? This is weird. This is wild. Like, Choose Your Own Adventure book. And, like, pick the wrong page.

Alex Ferrari 48:14
Exactly. I mean, God, I mean, it's, uh, you're, you're helping as many people as you can. But then, you know, obviously, you can't help everybody because you're getting bombarded with so many messages and things like that. It was heartbreaking to watch from our perspective, I can't even imagine what it was like from you and for others on the ground there.

Jariko Denman 48:34
Yeah, it was, it was it was rough. It was it was it was a it's one of the worst things I've witnessed in my life. Really? Yeah. It's, it's socks. I mean, but, you know, it, it's something like that, being a soldier prepared me for it's like, I don't make policy. You know, I just, I can just do the best I can. So

Alex Ferrari 48:57
and I saw that picture that you took in the in the, in that big giant jumbo carrier with like, you know, 1000 people or whatever behind you. You know, you one of those guys that took me you were one of the people that the news was showing that image around constantly. I mean, you were you were in as they say this shit.

Jariko Denman 49:16
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, literally, yeah,

Alex Ferrari 49:19
literally. Well, well, I mean, I appreciate you sharing that with us and and doing what you could when you were there, man. I do appreciate that. Now, switching gears to another insanity. Your new film. You're working on? triple seven. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you forgot all about that.

Jariko Denman 49:40
Oh, yeah. Well, you call it I. It is going to be a documentary film that I'm like, I'm not even there yet. Like, my mind. I didn't that part.

Alex Ferrari 49:49
But yeah, so triple seven. Talk to the audience about what triple seven is and what you guys are trying to accomplish with it.

Jariko Denman 49:55
Yeah, so triple seven is seven skydive into the seven continents in seven days, hopefully, to break a world record for seven skydives into seven continents, the current world record is month long, so we're definitely gonna break the world record for the skydiving into the seven continents. I mean, unless I like burn in on continent three or something like that, but it's, it's basically we are doing this as I don't want to call it a stunt. But we're doing a stunt to raise awareness and funds for a, an organization called Folds of Honor Folds of Honor, raises money to give scholarships to Goldstar kids, so kids whose parent was were killed in either combat or as a first responder. And the reason that we're, we're kind of const, there's, you know, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a veteran nonprofit these days, everybody knows. But the reason we picked Folds of Honor is because, you know, the the war has been over for a year now and people are already forgetting. And, you know, if there's a there's a kid out there right now, who's five years old, whose parent was killed in Afghanistan, you know, four, four years ago, okay. And in, you know, 12 years, whatever, whenever that kids applying to college, we're definitely going to have forgotten about these wars. So we're trying to one things are fresh in people's minds go out, do things that are crazy, to raise awareness for this nonprofits, so we can put as much money in their bank as possible. So that as all these kids, you know, it's in the it's in the 1000s of kids whose parents were killed in these wars. So having funds ready for when they hit, you know, those years that they're taken care of? So that's the long and short of that's the why. And the how is you know, it's myself about nine other guys are jumping. former Marines former SEAL Team guys, former SF guys. Yeah. And we're starting in Antarctica on one January.

And this year,

Alex Ferrari 52:08
that's coming up January. Yeah. Yeah. So

Jariko Denman 52:10
about what is that about six, seven weeks away?

Alex Ferrari 52:12
So is it just because I'm not familiar with any articles weather patterns? January 1, hotter, colder?

Jariko Denman 52:22
It's summer there. Yeah. Okay, good. So you did choose that at least. So

so when we jump, if we jump in, you know, around 13 grand, it'll be negative 75 at jump altitude,

Alex Ferrari 52:34
at jump altitude, and then on the ground, it'll be like Hawaii.

Jariko Denman 52:37
Negative 40. Ish.

Alex Ferrari 52:40
Yeah. And that's, that's in the summer. Yeah, yeah. So I have to ask, well, you guys all drunk one night and said, You know what, be fun. Because it sounds like a bunch of guys hanging out shooting pool, drinking and going, what we should do, man, we should just do seven continents and seven days and raise some money for some kids, man,

Jariko Denman 52:59
what do you think? Yeah, yeah, I got brought on a little later. But that's probably exactly what happened.

Alex Ferrari 53:04
Because this is not a same idea. It's it's a fairly, I mean, just to travel alone, and the fatigue on the traveling alone. I mean, I know you're being strategic about where you're going in the world, but still, it's

Jariko Denman 53:16
like, yeah, we'll just drink a lot of coffee, you know, and it'd be fun black rifle coffee. Obvious. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, but it's, uh, it is going to be very, very difficult. And like, that's, that's kind of the point. I think, for me, and one of the things in doing, you know, all the social media activations, and then the documentary for me, something that's very important to me, and in being a storyteller is inspiring my generation of veteran to realize that, like, our best days are behind us, like, Yeah, those were the glory, I call them the glory days to it was, you know, I did a lot of live in, but like, we've got so much time left, and we've learned so many lessons, and we've done. So we put so much in our like, life experience bank, we can't waste that. We have to continue to find ways to serve, and you know, hear it, black rifle, we're coffee where I work. That's what we do. We try to go out and inspire veterans inspire young people to find a purpose. You know, find something that really makes you passionate makes you want to do things for that thing that suck. You know, I mean, it's like anyone with their art. It's like being a filmmaker, like, you know, getting that first movie across the line as a filmmaker that almost kills people. And people go work their whole life trying to do that. And but that's what's that's what makes people wake up in the morning is like having a struggle having a purpose. And for me, this is just a great example of that, like, Yeah, it's crazy. But I mean, no one's gonna watch something that ain't crazy. So

Alex Ferrari 54:59
well. I mean, in today's world, I mean, that's for sure you gotta get you got to get attention. Well, I mean, I not only do I appreciate your service, and I thank you for the service as well for all the years and time that you put into your to defending our country. But what you're doing now is, is really that this project seems so wonderful. And I'll make sure to promote it as much as I can, through this interview, and through all my platforms as well, because it's a wonderful charity of what you're trying to do. And I love insanity. Obviously, I do have been in the film industry for close to 30 years. So obviously, I'm not wired well, either. But just, it's just a different kind of rewiring that as needed. You know, I'm going to ask you a few questions, I ask all of my guests, and this is going to be interesting, I'm going to be interested to see what you say about this. What advice would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today coming from your experience?

Jariko Denman 55:57
Coming from my experience, I would give them the advice of, you know, a, to use a an analogy, don't be scared, don't like start in the mailroom. Right. Like, I, my first job, I went and shared a hotel room with my buddy because they weren't paying me at first, you know, I mean, you can't, you don't get to skip the line. So drop your ego and start in the mailroom. Even if you're not getting paid to be in the mailroom, like you just got to get your foot in the door and show your value.

Alex Ferrari 56:28
With all the training you've had over the course of your career, is there any lesson that you can pull out of that that can help filmmakers deal with the industry? Because the industry is so absolutely brutal?

Jariko Denman 56:40
Yeah, I guess a couple things. One, being absolute master the basics. That's, that's, yeah, it's something I tell people for everything. You know, in the military, in the Special Operations community, we always said like, we don't do anything special. We just absolutely master the basics. That's the first one. And then the second one is like it's not personal. It's not. It's not. It's not show Friends. It's show business. So get over yourself and realize it's not personal for every time you get your feelings hurt. There's 10 people behind you that won't so thick skin and realize it's not about you.

Alex Ferrari 57:19
Yeah, I mean, you're breaking hearts all around the world right now, sir. I mean, what do you mean, it's not about me and my vision? Come on Jericho. I mean, oh, God, I'm sure you've met a few people along the way. Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film industry in the military or in life?

Jariko Denman 57:40
I guess it would be listening to my own advice. Like I, I take things too, personally.

Yeah, I think it's, it's just realizing that you're a cog in the wheel, you know, and you're replaceable. But, yeah, I think for me, that's the heart. That's been the hardest thing I have to learn every day and not. Not so much. Like I get offended. I take it personally, but I just really care. You know, and sometimes I care too much.

Alex Ferrari 58:18
It's not about you, is you and you and you can be replaced. That's a really tough lesson. Like, because when you're coming up, you're like, I am replaceable, until you get fired. And you're like, oh, there was three other people that could do my job. Using that that special mommy lied to me. Yeah.

Jariko Denman 58:36
I'm not a special snowflake.

Yeah, there's two kinds of people, people whose mom told them they're special too much. And people whose moms didn't tell them they're special enough. Right?

Alex Ferrari 58:45
Exactly. There. You're absolutely right. There's those are two very specific groups of people. And three of your favorite films of all time.

Jariko Denman 58:56
Ooh, that's a that's a tough one. Because you know how like they

Alex Ferrari 58:59
did they always change right now this moment?

Jariko Denman 59:03
Yeah, platoon. Always gonna be number one. I love the film. Big Wednesday. The Wednesday. I love it. Oh, yeah. That's

Alex Ferrari 59:11
a good one. Julius.

Jariko Denman 59:13
Yeah. I can't get through that movie with with dry eyes. I cried.

Alex Ferrari 59:17
That's it. That's a dude movie, though. That's like a Yeah, that's. Oh, it's such a sentimental do testosterone film. Oh, it's spiritual with the waves and offense. Great.

Jariko Denman 59:29
Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's so good. And I think you know, I've been watching Dunkirk a lot lately. And I love the I've been kind of like SPIVA working on a project in my own creative space that has that, you know, those parallel stories. I just the way they did that. And it's also just gorgeous. Like, you can mute that movie and watch it and it's still great.

Alex Ferrari 59:54
It's what's Christopher Nolan. I mean, I mean, I can't wait for Oppenheimer. I mean, who else gets like two? 100 million dollars to make a movie about Oppenheimer. Like, who else is gonna get that no one is really gonna get a move to earn a million bucks and go make an Oppenheimer and he's he's sure to get a black and white too. I think it's like, it's easy. I've seen black and white. I've only seen black and white images of the movie so

Oh, let Chris do what he does. Come on. I mean, it'll be

Jariko Denman 1:00:23
at number three spot. It's constant rotation. But I've been watching. I've just been like, you know, you have to rewatch troubles that come up. Every now and again. And for me right now that's done Kirk.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:34
Brother Jericho. Man, I appreciate you coming on man. And thank you so much for being so raw and honest about your experiences and your story that you're telling and, and the good work that you continue to do, not only in Hollywood to make make these actors and these things look good. But the work you're doing with your new project and, and charity, so I appreciate you brother, where can people find out more about you? And the end? triple seven and and where they can donate if they want to?

Jariko Denman 1:01:00
Yeah, so the triple seven you can find out all about that on legacy expeditions.net Just as it's spelled. And then Jericho Denman I guess Instagrams where I'm kind of like the most active my handle is kind of funny. I made it years ago. It's laid back Berzerker as

Alex Ferrari 1:01:19
an adult, that's amazing. zerker that's all this

Jariko Denman 1:01:25
Yeah, and then you know, I'm currently you know, working now I'm seeing I don't even know my time I make I make long form content for black rifle coffee. So, you know, go on our YouTube channel, check out our work there. We we've done some pretty awesome lifestyle stuff here recently. And then getting ready to start kind of a bigger, bigger lift on this documentary about the triple seven. So yeah. All things on YouTube black rifle coffee. We have podcasts we do all kinds of stuff and then legacy expeditions on that.

Alex Ferrari 1:02:01
Man, you are a busy busy man, man. Your your your retirement is. It's not very relaxing, sir. Yeah, no. I appreciate you again. Man. Thank you so much again for doing doing everything you've done. Ben, I appreciate you.

Jariko Denman 1:02:14
Thanks a lot for having me.

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BPS 248: Producing Sundance Winning Indie Films with Jonathan Baker

November 9, 2022 by Bulletproof Screenwriting

Today on the show we have Sundance-winning producer Jonathan Baker. His new film Sylvie’s Love is the talk of Sundance 2020. Sylvie’s Love is an upcoming American drama film, written and directed by Eugene Ashe. It stars Tessa Thompson, Nnamdi Asomugha, Ryan Michelle Bathe, Regé-Jean Page, Aja Naomi King, and Eva Longoria. It will have its world premiere at the Sundance Film Festival on January 27, 2020.

Jonathan is a wealth of information. In the episode, I pick his brain on what it was like winning the audience award at Sundance, how the indie film market place is changing, and much more. His last Sundance-winning film was Crown Heights which was later sold to Amazon Studios.

In 1980, police in Brooklyn, N.Y., wrongfully charge Trinidadian immigrant Colin Warner with murder. Convicted for a crime he didn’t commit, Colin spends 20 years in prison while his friend Carl King fights for the young man’s freedom.

He made his directorial debut with the stoner comedy Manifest Destiny Down: Spacetime. Check out the trailer below.

In this absurdist satire, an awkward OCD physics genius and a hot ex-Catholic sorority girl wake up after blacking out Halloween night to discover they missed the evacuation of Earth. A mysterious agent pursues the feuding couple as they figure out how to work together to solve the recently entangled multi-verse and ultimately try to save humanity from AI.

Here’s a bit more info on today’s guest.

Jonathan Baker (JB) is an independent filmmaker, adjunct professor, and artistic coach. His company JB Productions, Inc. has many partnerships with artists JB develops and produces. He is a member of the Producer’s Guild of America.

JB worked at Sony Pictures Entertainment, first in television research, then at Screen Gems and TriStar Pictures as Marketing Manager. He marketed over forty major theatrical releases, of which ten films achieved #1 at the box-office status. He Co-Producer the documentaries Fang vs. Fiction (airing on AMC), The Real Exorcist (A & E), and Real Premonitions (A & E). Films of note include Closer (dir. Mike Nichols), Adaptation (dir. Spike Jonze), Big Fish (dir. Tim Burton), Boogeyman (#1 at the box office), Underworld (#1 at the box office), In The Cut (dir. Jane Campion), You Got Served (#1 at the box office), the Resident Evil franchise, and Exorcism of Emily Rose. While at TriStar, Lords of Dogtown (dir. Catherine Hardwicke), Oliver Twist (dir. Roman Polanski), Running with Scissors (dir. Ryan Murphy) and Silent Hill.

Johnathan’s new film The Banker starring Sam Jackson and Anthony Mackie comes out March 2020 on Apple TV+.

Two African American entrepreneurs in the 1950s hire a white man to pose as the head of their company while they posed as a janitor and a chauffeur and ran the business.

Enjoy my conversation with Jonathan Baker.

Right-click here to download the MP3

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Episode Transcript

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Alex Ferrari 2:48
I like to welcome the show, Jonathan Baker, man, thank you so much for being on the show, brother.

Jonathan Baker 4:43
Good to see you, man. Good to see you.

Alex Ferrari 4:45
Good to see you too, man.

Jonathan Baker 4:46
Thank you for having me. Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 4:47
Ofcourse, man, of course. So before we get into the movie you directed and your new Sundance movie that you've produced. How did you get into the business?

Jonathan Baker 4:58
Okay, good. Yeah. I I was dyslexic growing up. And so I was bullied as a kid quite a bit. And my mother discovered I could. I had like a habit of tapping on tables and stuff and rhythm. And so I became a musician, as I was learning how to read, and they kind of sponsored every curiosity I had in the performing arts. And so I went from like, drum lessons to trombone lessons to piano lessons to singing lessons to ballet, jazz tap, you know, I was on musical theater like I was the Glee kid before there was Glee.

Alex Ferrari 5:34
So you were so so you were super cool. That's what you're saying.

Jonathan Baker 5:37
I was the super nerd. I was the guy that everybody hated all the theater the fucking the. the jocks wanted to beat me up. You know, they were threatening me.

Alex Ferrari 5:47
Were you in a lot were you placed in a locker? Sir?

Jonathan Baker 5:50
I Dude, I was threatened so many times. Oh, me, too. I but I luckily had a good friend on the football team who actually defended me and he was like, my buffer. Ben, God bless his soul. He passed away whatever they are me. But um, yeah, so I had some heroes along the way, whatever. And at the end of the day, my mother passed away when I was 20. And I stopped performing. And I got into the business side, and I just became, I thought, okay, I'm just going to learn how the money works in the financing works. And just stay active that way until I kind of get over this crazy loss I had. And that that that that was it. I, you know, started right after going to University of Michigan School of Music for musical theater. I graduated and went to New York and just got a job on Wall Street to support myself started spending money on shows that I thought would be interesting place to produce, then left Wall Street to go to the nederlanders. And that was my first big entertainment break. Working for Jimmy Nederlander so.

Alex Ferrari 6:53
So you basically you got into the stable business of the music industry. And then you went into the stable business of stage and Broadway. And then you said, No, no, no, I need something more stable. Let's get into this.

Jonathan Baker 7:05
Yeah. Yeah, my as my dad says to me, my brother's a surgeon. My dad's like, well, john, you're a risk taker.So I'm like, Yeah, thanks Dad. Dan Baker.

Alex Ferrari 7:19
Yes, exactly. Alright, so let's talk about Sylvia's love, which is now as of this recording, is in the Sundance 2020 lineup. It is competition, right. Is it in competition?

Jonathan Baker 7:32
Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 7:33
So it's in competition, which is a very small group. I mean, presently, what are we talking about? 20 films in competition. 30

Jonathan Baker 7:42
10 intermap, tenant dramatic competition.

Alex Ferrari 7:45
Yeah, it was tenant dramatic. So um, so you are like the one of the one of the one of the 1% that actually, yeah, the stats are really crazy. 15,014 15,000 Films 15,000.

Jonathan Baker 7:58
I look at this like, because I mean, I've been going to Sundance since 97. That was my first short film as an actor was in there. And it was an entirely different festival. Now. It's just I feel, I feel for the community of filmmakers who submit. It's such a tricky thing. And I just look at it and like, it's just it's a crazy, it's a crazy ride, you know, so, everybody, everybody who tries and submits should get a valor award. It's just, you know, you finished the movie. Everybody should get together and be in a stadium and have a rage at a party and be like, yes. But it's it's pretty amazing to be there. And actually, you know, kind of take the take the real right of it.

Alex Ferrari 8:36
So you know, it's funny that I heard Kevin Smith and Robert Rodriguez. I think even Linkletter all of them said that if they would submit slacker clerks or El Mariachi today, they would never get it. I know. It's a really, really different market. Yeah, it's really interesting. Yeah. So let's talk about Sylvia's love will tell us a little bit about the movie.

Jonathan Baker 8:59
Saudis Love is an amazing movie, and the fact that it's actually being made now. And it's, it's it's a very interesting sign of the times, in my opinion, as a producer, Nandi and I were attracted to the script, because it had so much jazz, and it was just a beautiful script that Eugene had written. And we we always look for things that are really sort of, not in the mainstream, that are really sort of side over to the side that nobody else is going to make this we should do it. And so the story is really what makes it relevant today because Tessa plays a young debutant African American girl growing up in Harlem and she wants she has a passion she wants to be a TV producer. So she's very she has She's like a modern girl and is sort of a bygone era and and with that she falls in love with sort of the wrong type of guy which Nandi and I really related to because we're both musical guys and It's he he plays a saxophone player. And so their relationship is really, really sort of this beautiful love story and test his character Sylvie really has to negotiate between her her ambition to be successful to be a woman, you know. And so she, she goes through this sort of process where she really makes some tough decisions in her dilemma between the love of her life clearly, and her career. And she has to reconcile those two things. And so she is a female breaking the glass ceiling story, which is what sort of made it was like, but this is a great story to make today. Because this is so fundamentally a part of the Zeitgeist, the culture, the you know, sort of the world that we live in. And yet it sort of operates because it's in the 19, late 50s, and early 60s, it's sort of beautiful in that it just, it's, it's just this time capsule, it's very classy, it's super romantic. And I think it really just plays it's whimsical, it's sweet, it's charming, it's heartfelt, it has certain moments that you really feel for these characters and what they're trying to do with their lives and how complicated sometimes it gets. And then ultimately, just kind of, you know, how it works itself out. So it's, it's pretty neat. It's been a, it's been a very special film, I've worked on a lot of different kinds of movies. And I tell you, I was talking to Eugene, last night Look, man, you know, this is a very special film, or I'm very proud of it. I think it's just, it's an honor to be a part of the team. And it's just great. It's great to see it sort of have a moment at Sundance, because it really doesn't feel like a Sundance movie. It feels very, you know, big comparatively to the kinds of things that Sundance tends to focus on. And that's, that's why I think it's getting sort of its own sort of buzz. You know,

Alex Ferrari 11:54
what, in your opinion, what are the films at Sundance focuses on, because that has changed dramatically over the years?

Jonathan Baker 12:01
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think I think when we did Crown Heights, like when I read that script tonight called Nanda said, this is the movie that we did make. I had been going as a buyer for Sony, I had gone as a filmmaker, I'd gone as a professor, and I've just I've seen it sort of move and shake and kind of zig and zag a lot. But, but Sundance really does something which I think is sort of unique and and to be revered, which is that it really focuses on an independent spirit. Like it focuses on truly unique filmmaking voices. And for that, it's sort of it can kind of go everywhere, but it has this counterculture to whatever you see as the mainstream box office. You know, Sundance is sort of leading the way in the independent space, so independent, that Sundance you know, so it's interesting to find, and to work on a movie that has what I you know, if I put on my old marketing studio brain, this is a, this is a bigger, you know, cross, if it is our house crossover, it's not even our house crossover, it feels like a more mainstream kind of studio movie. And I think the reason that it is there, and the reason that I think it got picked is because it tackles the more interesting sort of frame of what, what's happening with race and what's happening. And it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't go to the obvious. It's not about, you know, African Americans, sort of like being subjugated, like Crown Heights was, this is about classy, beautiful, intelligent African Americans living a beautiful life and figuring out how to make the best life for themselves right now, which is strangely independent. You know, to me, that's what makes it so Sundance he, it just doesn't look like a Sundance movie, because it's got this sort of a certain scope to it. But thematically, it's very Sundance. And so that's what I think is fascinating about the fact that it's there.

Alex Ferrari 14:01
Now, how did you attract such great talent? I mean, you have a great cast on this movie.

Jonathan Baker 14:06
Yeah, that's, that's interesting. I think that first and foremost, it's because it truly is a great script. It was it was a beautiful script. And then I think in terms of at least produce orally, as you know, it's just like, you climb up the ranks. And luckily for us, when when when Crown Heights got the audience Choice Award, there was this, okay, what do you guys gonna do next? And we looked around, we were like, you know, we had sort of a third and a fourth movie and focus, but but we weren't at that level. We needed to find something in sort of the middle range. And this movie, it was brought to us by an extraordinarily amazing woman, Gabrielle Glor, who, who's really connected, and UK Nash, who also has his own sort of legacy in the entertainment space, and then And then Nandi I think nominees, especially multi hyphenate and his ability to not only pick talent, identify the right kinds of people to go to carry bharden casting director exceptionally well respected and it just became sort of a could we go to first that can create the right old lineage for every other decision that focused on the Sylvie role, we had a couple of people in mind. And then it was, it became clear to us that there was something special happening with Tessa, not only because of her legacy at Sundance, but also because she was starting to kind of really get, you know, at a certain point where sort of her star power could hang a budget, like Sylvie and there was this, you know, I was a fan of her work in a couple of other things that were independent. But then with Westworld, and men in black, and I was at Sony, there was sort of a lot of, sort of, I don't know, there was a lot of synergy around her, we became friends with her because she she came out and started to sport Crown Heights in a certain way. And then, you know, there was this sort of, you know, I like to say there's this dating period where everyone kind of like, you know, investigates and everyone's sort of like talking to each other and try to are these people like and kind of go to war with, because that's what independent filmmaking is. And, and then in terms of what happened after that, Nandi was doing this beautiful play off Broadway and Tessa just showed up to see it. And I don't think that she really recognized. I mean, nobody really knows Nabis sort of talent. I mean, that's the hard part about moving from the NFL, to saying I want to be an actor, and I was just like, Look, dude, if you're gonna do this, we have to kind of do anything but ballers. So let's figure out this, this path over here. So it was really validating for I think her and other people to see Nandi on stage, being an actor, and really doing it the right way. Like, he's gonna go do an off Broadway play in at 99 seat theater in Union Square. I mean, this is an amazing thing. And that that really, I think, earned a lot of respect in the community. And for that, it was really, you know, after that, you know, test was like, I want to do this, and the team, everybody liked it. And we said, Look, here's what has to happen. Unfortunately, we have to kind of fit it in between these two, you know, megalithic sort of like spaces that I'm in the middle of. And so we kind of backed into that. Once we had, I think, Tessa and Nandi, then it became sort of a, sort of a, you know, kind of who's the perfect person or in my, in everybody's mind, and the team who's really, really the best person to play each role. And then it became just kind of reaching out to those people, one at a time. And, you know, there are a lot of characters in this movie, Nandi was inherently focused, while we were manufacturing the movie, I think he was the one really focused on casting most of the time and really making sure it was done meticulously, well, like he is, and it came into focus. One, one character at a time.

Alex Ferrari 18:04
It's great. Now, how do you how do you budget a story like this? That it is, you know, you know, hitting a smaller demo than, let's say, the Avengers? Yeah, in today's in today's world, which, yeah, it's harder, harder for the audience to find the films that filmmakers are making.

Jonathan Baker 18:21
Yeah, for me, you know, and one of the things that I kind of take my students through at Carnegie Mellon, where I teach, we, typically we use a lot of cops, where we're talking about other movies with the filmmaker, like, we spent a lot of time with Eugene, saying, what in this, what is the movie look like in your mind? You know, and what does the movie remind you of what other movies does it remind you of so we had some pretty interesting comps you know, like Carol and that kind of stuff, that kind of tapped tapped a certain sort of spot. And, and we were very committed to kind of really making it very authentic. So we, we just really invested in Eugene's vision for that. And that included shooting in on 16 millimeter, and, you know, really, just really putting a lot behind the locations. And the real look of the movie, it was extraordinarily mean. Everything that you see everything that we invested is on the screen. It's not in the actor salary. I'll tell you that much. And it was a labor of love.

Alex Ferrari 19:28
And it was shot on Super 16. Yeah, nice.

Jonathan Baker 19:32
Yeah, exactly. Quinn. The dp is such a wonderful guy. It I've never seen a movie graded so smoothly by harbor and Joe, but it was already in the dailies, like I've never seen a movie come out after being developed and look as good, as Sylvie did. And I was like, this is really something else.

Alex Ferrari 19:57
Like a dp who knows what they're doing. It's shocking. I mean, What are we going to what are we going to do in color? Not much, you know, it's really something. Yeah, we're always we're always so used to the raw like, flat look now that you like and you see some no lots no nothing. And now when you see like, that's what filmmaking wonderful. Oh, no, when I was like, What is this? What ever seen this for? I don't know. It's been years it's been I remember I've worked with DPS like that. You're just like, wow, you. You kind of know what you're doing. It's Yeah, it's refreshing. Oh, yeah.

Jonathan Baker 20:29
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And he, he and his entire team, were actually just really lovely people. Like, you know, it was nice

Alex Ferrari 20:37
in and I wanted to touch on that real quick that filmmakers a lot of times don't realize how important the team that you're putting together is, because you are you are going to a war with these people. And if you've got, if you've got, I mean, look, we all have egos, that's fine. But we have to keep them in check. And we have to, you know, put the movie first and all that kind of stuff. But there's, if you pick the wrong people, man, it destroys. It just it just destroys the right. So at any moment, like a film like the film I did, the one that I shot at Sundance, I had a very small crew, if anybody, including the cast, any one of them would have decided to give me attitude. Yeah, it's tough. So can you talk a little bit about the importance of building that team? Yeah, I

Jonathan Baker 21:22
think that we work with the one of the most complicated art forms humankind has ever come up with, you know, and the the amount of collaboration that goes into a movie is absolutely. It's like, I don't, you know, it's, it's, it's pretty amazing. And I sometimes look at I tried it, I tried it, you know, because I, you know, like you do you get people who want to do this kind of stuff. And they're like, Look, I'm writing a script. I'm like, let me try to be clear. We are not building a tree fort. We are building a skyscraper. There is a lot of physics that goes into that building, you know, and it looks, it doesn't look like that. You know, but it looks

Alex Ferrari 22:07
easy. It looks easy. Yeah. Yeah. It's like

Jonathan Baker 22:10
trying to create some metaphors for people to really get it. I come from a military background, my I'm a military brat, my, my, my, every single male in my entire family went into the military, except my brother and I, and after I started making movies is like, Oh, this makes a lot of sense. This is like going to war I might, you know, like, I mean, thankfully, nobody really, hopefully usually dies. But the the idea of the the system that it takes to support the filmmakers is absolutely jaw dropping. So every single key, every single person on the set, their energy, their flow, their intelligence, their creativity, it's all quite important, all the way down to the PA is I mean,

Alex Ferrari 22:52
it's the synergy. It's a synergy. Amazing synergy. I

Jonathan Baker 22:55
mean, it's absolutely great to see people working together. And of course, you know, by the time you're done with 30, some odd days or whatever how many days you're shooting, everybody is such a family. It's just unbelievable.

Alex Ferrari 23:06
I always I always equate it to being a carnival worker, because like a party because we are all carnies, we go off to a location, we put up our tents, and put up a tent, you do a show, you're really it's you and your team against wherever you're at, basically. So you're kind of like you're relying on each other, then you put the tent, then you put the tents down, you pack up and you go to the next town. But when the show is over, it's like, Oh, it's such relationships made on set are so intense that 20 years later, you can run somebody and go, doo, doo doo. Where have you been? And then you sit down and you have some drinks you like remember that time where the the giraffe got in the backseat? How did that happen? Yeah,

Jonathan Baker 23:54
everybody's got this. The stories are what actually make this business go? Because like, everything else, like what? What are you talking about? Like, oh, but you remember when this? Oh, that was great.

Alex Ferrari 24:04
It was very painful at the time. But now it's, it's hilarious. Exactly. Now you had you had a lot of success with crown Crown Heights, which we're going to talk about later in the show. But what you saw you saw that movie at Sundance or around around the time of Sundance. So what is the experience like of selling a film at the festival? Because we've all heard the stories of like SATA Bergen, you know, going to that little cafe or that little pizza joint and everybody just like making a deal on a napkin and all that. Yes, yes.

Jonathan Baker 24:36
Yes, it is very interesting. Yes. How is it like that? Well, first, first of all, what I like about Sundance is you are well, when I started telling my my Carnegie administrators, look, you know, don't do this. Don't do a networking event in LA, nobody will come. Go to Sundance, you know, like, go to Sundance, everybody's walking around like you just run To tensor, like, it's amazing. And so the idea that you sit in a cafe with the buyers, and you're hanging out with them is really actually the real deal. And I think that's what makes it so fun is that, you know, first of all, everyone's everyone loves movies, everyone's a cinephile, everyone's got lots of interesting sort of, like, you know, credibility, but taste and sort of the vibration is really quite, quite interesting. So, but selling the movies, at Sundance, I think, ultimately, is exactly what you you've heard, it is very much a market, it's very exciting. It's, it's really nerve racking, you get you, obviously, you showcase your movie, and then you get to kind of wait to see what happens. And people, the buyers, you know, kind of reach out to your rep and or reach out to you personally. And then you connect people, and then you say, and then there's just this sort of like middle Manning, that starts to facilitate the people who are dating each other, you know, and that everybody gets together and they meet, and they kind of talk about sort of what the plan is, or how would it work? And, you know, what, what would you do to support the movie, and you kind of try to understand exactly what the next level of partnership is going to be with that distributor? And then, once there is this sort of like, Okay, this feels like, we've gotten to know each other, and we're feeling good about it. And there's this negotiation that goes on. And I think that's where it gets really, really interesting. There are obviously lawyers and agents that help you work through those kind of particulars. I think that's really also that what comes up for a lot of independent filmmakers is, do I need an agent? Do I need that, like, Listen, focus on what you want to focus on? focus on making a movie, there's so much to do when you're manufacturing a movie, I don't mind and I think I like having other people to share, you know, the kind of responsibilities with the so the agents, the lawyers, they bring such a particularly valuable level of expertise. They know all the buyers, they see the mark, they're studying the market while you're, you're studying filmmaking. And, and that's really, really neat. You know, I've even coming up to Sylvia I've had, I've had an old student who's now buying for Sony call me. She's been out out of Carnegie Mellon for 10 years. And she's like, I'm tracking your movie. And I'm like, this, I'm having like, an amazing life moment here. Like, it's so interesting. The network plays out. Yeah, shout out to shout out to Lakshmi, but I think ultimately, you get into this sort of very surreal kind of flow. And then there's this, okay, you know, a lot of times it looks like this, you've got a couple of people kind of going up against each other. And you kind of pick the one that makes the most sense for what you're after. What is what is your bottom line? as a filmmaker? Do you want to make the money back? Or do you care more about a theatrical release? Or do you care about more about the personable kind of relationship with the people inside the company? And do you trust those people? And, you know, if you've made a movie, it's really much, it's your baby, it's growing up, it's going to college, you know, where do you want that child to go? And where do you think it's going to have the best chance to survive? You know, it's, it's a very, it's a really profound choice. And it comes with a lot of nerves. And then at some point, you, you, you know, it's very, like very much like Shark Tank, you eventually make a deal. And then you go, look, we love you guys. Like, yeah, we're gonna do this euphoric, like, you know, kind of, you know, next level kind of celebration, and then you're off to the next, you know, kind of game, which is, as you know, the NFL, like, you're moving from what is a really interesting, very intense microcosm of cinema, you know, Sundance, to what is the world stage, and then it's anybody's guess what's going to happen because the market is brutal up there.

Alex Ferrari 28:56
Now, I want to talk to you a little bit about that market. Because, you know, from, from my experience, and from my point of view, I've been watching and studying Sundance, for over the last 1520 years, if not, since the 90s. And what was once this kind of, like, you know, the, you know, Miramax, you know, buying things left and right, and Fox, searchlight and all of those, you know, Paramount Vantage, and all these kind of these little micro indie labels. The money was flowing heavily back in the day of but but the, and Sundance was a much more significant voice and kind of like spotlight for films, where in today's world, there's such a just avalanche of content that Sundance still has a light on it without question, and it's much better to be in Sundance than and not to be in Sundance. Yeah, but the marketplace I've noticed that there hasn't been as many deals made at Sundance films coming out of Sundance aren't being bought at the same rate. I mean, there was a year or two that Netflix was buying everything that Amazon was buying everything in the last year. Not that much. So yeah. What's your feeling about the marketplace? how it's changing? And how do you think it's gonna move forward? Because I, you know, I wrote a whole book about I feel how the markets moving forward, but from the Sundance experience from a producer of your statutes point of view, what do you think the marketplace is doing now? And where do you think it's going? We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now, back to the show.

Jonathan Baker 30:34
I think that market works, I think, I think it really comes down to and, you know, we've said this, you know, at the studio level, where we're like, we're watching the box office, you know, kind of recede, and then it kind of goes up again, and then like, you know, kind of, it's all moving around, like, it's dynamic, I think the main thing is, if you make a good movie, people will buy it, if you if you if you create good content, the world wants good content. So it comes down, I think, usually the taste and your ability to execute something at a certain quality. And that kind of has a big part in it. And then obviously, with the streaming wars and the the sort of the real kind of boon, I think it's a boon in terms of economic muscle showing up. There's a lot of new buyers, and they're, they're very quick, sweetie, I love you. There's a lot of I think there's a world of opportunity for filmmakers, and I get people approaching me all the time say, oh, what's going to happen? Like, it's amazing what's happening. This is incredible. What's happening? Why is everybody so pessimistic? I always tell people is like, Look, the thing that you want to keep keep your eye on is the population of the of the world is 7.5 billion people. And it's only going up, unfortunately. And the penetration of the internet to those 7.5 billion people is only 30%. We've got a long, long way to go. And if the boom in the you know, the the boom in the internet, it reminds me of sort of TV and the the history of, of film, and people were so threatened by it until they figured out how to partner with each other. So we're in this really, you know, history repeating itself, kind of, I think phase of things, it will settle itself out, everybody's got to negotiate the right equilibrium. This is ultimately happening between the unions and everybody. But I think it's really, it's a really exciting time to be a content creator. And I just look at it and say, Look, at least from where I'm sitting. What I mean, I read a great script last night by a female filmmaker, named nothing Arizona, and I really hope she gets her, her her capital, I'm going to try to help her get this movie made. It's it's a good script. And I was just like, Great. Okay, cool. Like, Alright, we're alive. This is it? Because it's hard to write a good script. Yeah. Oh, yes. You know, it's like, it's just Okay, great. It's like diamond in the rough, like, Oh, great, she found great. Let's go, let's go. And so it's just crap, you know, I think you just got to focus on, if you're going to go to a streaming video, make a great streaming video, if you're going to go make a video game, make a fucking great video game, if you're gonna go make a movie, and you're going to be a part of that lineage. Let's make a great movie. And let's, let's move that ball down the field. They, they're all their own unique content. And I just I go back to that again, and again, again, just try to be good at what what it is that you're trying to do, the market will find you. Now you working within the studio system, you must have seen a lot of directors and had interaction with a lot of directors coming in and out through these kind of genre films through Screen Gems.

Alex Ferrari 33:58
What was what was like if you know you without calling anybody's name out what was the like the biggest mistakes or the biggest common things that you saw that made directors either fail or just get in their own way or something along those lines? And then on the opposite side, what was like, I mean, you just kind of set it with love and Wiseman but like, what was the other or the opposite? Like, this is this is how you do it. Right? And this is how you take advantage of something. So on the both sides.

Jonathan Baker 34:28
That's an interesting question. saw a lot of different kinds of directors come through a lot of different kinds of experience levels. The the better directors who, who, who were really experienced and knew how to navigate the system, we're used to the political dynamic, okay. And in a studio system, it's really interesting because it is a bit more democratic than I think people realize there's a lot of there's a lot of groupthink that goes into it and it is It is, it is usually up to one person, like it does have a pecking order and there is like the big boss, and they will say yes or no. But a lot of people what I like to say they don't like to go it alone, you know? So there is this sort of like, Well, what do you think? What do you think, and then you use a lot of research, and then you try to, you tried to get the best sense of what the right thing to do is. And so the filmmakers that I think were the most successful, at least in my perspective, in my mind, were the ones who were, we're ready to have that much input, we were ready to kind of Listen, and, and sort of democratically go with the flow to the point where they realized that it isn't, you know, and a tour like environment, it's, it's, you're answering to what I call public money, it is a very different kind of artistic process, you have a release state, it's, it's a, it's a process of deliverables, like it's a system, and you have to move on down the field, whether you like it or not, you have to finish that movie and hand it over. And that's, that's sort of the rhythm of that. And in terms of, you know, if the filmmakers sort of fought that, or they created a bit of a stew, then what happens is the the energy of the studio, and the people, they don't want to support the filmmaker, they don't want to put forth the film, and it is personal that way. And so you start to see the not only the economic muscle move into a different place that could be reallocated. It almost starts to feel like the the people who really have the, the mechanism to do or to not do they, they may not be able to get may not be able to get on the phone anymore with you, it's just kind of like they're personally over, they don't want to kind of like take that attitude or something like

Alex Ferrari 36:50
that. It's very passive aggressive is very passive aggressive in that way.

Jonathan Baker 36:54
It can be it can be aggressive, aggressive, it can be directly or as a as a, you know, as a filmmaker has a bit too much hubris or a bit of an attitude, or they think they know. And they really don't have the perspective, that a lot of the, I mean, I don't want to be rah rah, the executives, because some of them are really, really troubling, too. But a lot of the time when you're a filmmaker, you have and I'm saying this from being a filmmaker, so I don't want to show I've been through this on my own my own personally, you think you know, and the value sometimes of the executive ranks and the studio ranks is that I have, I have friends who have worked on over 400 films. I mean, they're not credited on IMDB. These are people who have extraordinary, extraordinary, extraordinarily valuable perspectives a lot of the time. And so it's, it's a balancing act. And I think that if you can go in with that level of respect, it tends to go a lot better for you.

Alex Ferrari 37:58
I mean, I've heard I've heard movies as studios doing this. I mean, it's legendary for some some big like, you know, Robert Altman, or I know kind of bro Kenneth Kenneth Bronner, where they literally they just literally just shut this, they just the movie goes to die, it gets released on a horrible weekend. And they get no, no PNA money, they don't market it, and they just literally go and kill it. And it happened, obviously to Orson Welles. And many of these big directors that happened, but I'd really never heard a firsthand, you know, account of it like, Well, you know, if they will, I mean, obviously, if it The movie is so big, if it's a $200 million movie, they can't do that. But on the older system, where movies were done for $20 million, or if they figured out we'll make our money, we're just not going to really push this guy.

Jonathan Baker 38:47
Yeah, it's, it's an interesting mix. Sometimes it's hard to actually know exactly what what's going on with those decisions, because you can't see through the economic or the deal. But what what I like to say, in terms of where the where the right equilibrium is, is, is you sort of like, you sort of want a studio to have skin in the game, so that they can't abandon the movie, right? The filmmaker, you want them to be invested because you want them to actually chase their their actual real investment. And then in terms of being able to get along, then there's actually the personal relationship which is executive to filmmaker or just person to person, like, how are people actually in or communicating with one another? How are they going with the sort of the schedule, the rhythm of it, and, and both of those things actually matter quite a bit. Quite interesting to see how they actually start to kind of seesaw with each other.

Alex Ferrari 39:43
The one thing that I you know, we've had many guests on the show, we talk a lot about many topics, but the one area that we really haven't touched upon, and I kind of talked about it every once in a while and it's it's kind of like an unspoken rule that is definitely not taught in film schools is the politics of not only In the studio system, the politics of a film set the politics of, of dealing with personalities dealing with egos. And if you're the director, which most people listening are either want to be directors or producers, or people in the position of power in these environment, these environments. That balancing act is as much of the equation is as the creative, because I've met creative directors, and I've met people who really are wonderful artists, or had no idea how to deal with personality, psychology, politics. And I was told by an agent, once he's like, what I'm looking for in a client, as a director, I need a filmmaker, I need a politician, and businessman. And those three aspects have to be that's if you look at all the big directors ever in history, three of them generally, combined. So do you have any tips for filmmakers on how to navigate the politics of a set and or the politics of the studio system?

Jonathan Baker 41:04
That's a great question. And that's a that's a very well framed setup. Because that couldn't be more true, is remarkable. It's remarkable, because in what we do, sometimes when I talk to my Carnegie Mellon students, I'm like, Listen, we're not we're not writing a song, you can't get up here and to sing a song You see, that's, that's, that's a,

Alex Ferrari 41:28
that's an artist, that's an art,

Jonathan Baker 41:30
that's a, that's a very specific kind of thing. There's no barrier of entry, there's no economic risk to singing a song to me, and I love that stuff, too. Like, trust me, it's great. But in terms of where we're going, we're going to a place where even to accomplish the smallest, you know, film, there's still an economic, you know, reality that we have to kind of understand. And so there's this business. Brain, I like to talk about it in terms of there's a hybrid, out here we are hybrids, we have to create a sense of the economics of scale, we have to create a sense of the creativity that balances that. So we talked about modeling, you know, what's the model, and how to how to kind of work within it. And each of those sort of bins have certain pressure points where the people who are going to be in there have certain demands on them. And it's often how they meaning how you navigate interpersonal relationships that matter the most. So I always say to people, you have to respect each other. And they're their ultimate, specify specific skill set that you bring to the table. This is because of this economic scale, it's the most collaborative thing that I've ever seen. It's so collaborative, that you have to look at everybody, as a teammate, as somebody who has more skill than you have, in a very specific thing that you frankly, don't want to know that much about. I'm not it, like I say, I can edit. But I can just, I can just get by, I don't want to be an editor, I want to be able to speak the grammar. But I very much need a fabulous dp and I very much need a fabulous executive, I very much need a fabulous producer and a fabulous line producer and amazing grip. I don't want to be a grip. I I'm cool. Just being over here. And and I'd like to tell a story. And I'm interested in exactly what everybody thinks of doing with that kernel. And that is sort of an organic, you know, thing that kind of grows out of that. So there's the sense of First and foremost, getting to the point where you're so humble, that you're the

Alex Ferrari 43:52
humblest. I mean, you're like the most humble ever.

Jonathan Baker 43:55
Yeah, I think you have to be and I think that I've certainly been worn down by life to the point where it's just like embarrassing. And I just, I, I I love what I get to do now I feel like I'm sort of a an inspirational story for people, which is why I really appreciate getting a chance to tell anybody about it. But I think past a certain point, anytime that my life has not gone, right, it's because I was either betraying who I was, who I personally was, or it was because I had some sort of hubris is I had some sort of attitude that I was better than somebody else or, or there's something about that. That kicked me in the head again, and and to this point now. It's just this sense of collaboration. And looking at people and picking the people that are going to be on the team with that sense of Can I trust that they have good taste, and that they are able to do that job better than than I could ever want to do and then let it let it ride from there.

Alex Ferrari 44:58
I mean, I think and I've said this multiple times in the show. But I think it's it's important to cast your crew as it is to cast your actors critically. I mean, it's absolutely critical because if you get a dp who needs 10 hours to light a corner, that's going to be a problem. And that corner might look fantastic. But there has to be a balance within their art form and how they do it. And then also, as a director, you need to be able to, you know, collaborate, but also at the end of the day, it has to be everything has to be filtered through you as a director, right? And dealing with these personalities dealing with these Eagles dealing with their own personal like everyone's got their own personal crap that they're coming in, like they're, they had a fight with their wife, they know they're getting a divorce, their kids are doing something or you know that they can't do it. They got a ticket that they like, there's 1000 things that that I never thought about in the creative filmmaking process. It's always like the shot that Scorsese did in Goodfellas when he did an unkind steadycam. Like, that's fantastic.

Jonathan Baker 46:03
Right? You're bringing up something with it's really funny. I just finished producing this movie or we're in the middle of finishing called Sylvie right now, but that that title is gonna change the stars Tessa Thompson and my producing partner in nom de asamoah and Eva Longoria. And it's this beautiful jazz era. Movie. And it's, we're, we're about to lock picture right now. And Declan Quinn is the DP. And he's sort of an iconic, you know, just like, old school dude. And he, he first of all, we shot Super 16. And he was, I mean, this movie looks better than most movies that I've ever seen. uncoloured and it looks fabulous. We haven't even gotten to the idea. And, but at the same time, we were shooting this movie in, in LA for New York. And it was just a big, big production. And we were moving pretty slow. But Declan is the nicest guy in the world. He couldn't have been more sweet. And, you know, I'm the producer on set, just trying to get this thing to move. Like that clip, Brother, please. Are we are we gonna be okay, we're gonna be okay. It's gonna be fine. gonna be fine. You know. And he had this just beautiful demeanor about him and everybody. Everybody just responded to him is just loving, moving through, like, Did we make our days like, barely every day, he was fine. But it was the way that he was able to do I was just like, this guy's got a skill.

Alex Ferrari 47:37
Yeah, as opposed as as opposed to many DPS that I know you and I've worked with, like, Get out of my face. You producer. Let me be the artists, you have no idea what you're talking about. I know how to light. You don't tell me how to do my job. I'll see the difference.

Jonathan Baker 47:50
No, he was really it was actually pretty, pretty awesome. And I think this is one of the special movies that we did a pickup shoot, like, I think two to three weekends ago. And it was like a reunion. Everybody came back as like, hugs, like, Hey, good to see you like, Oh, we've missed you. Your hair's longer. You look like you got some sun, you're like great, you know? Great. It was it was really just like, All right. All right. And a lot of that has to do with my producing partner. Nami is like, the most, you know, gentle, spirited, nicest, classiest guy on planet Earth, the guy is just an angel. So every place is super loving on, on set. So you know, you can get these great, great collaborations together. And then you could also go and have like a Whoa, what, you know, this is pretty intense every year. But I think it's definitely from the top down.

Alex Ferrari 48:38
And you do appreciate the the ladder when you deal with with. Let me tell you, when you have the other one, you're like, oh, man, it's true that once you find groups of people that you really do have a good working with. You try to build that team up again. And

Jonathan Baker 48:56
yeah, he tries, which is why I think with with some of these, you know, iconic filmmakers, you know, there's

Alex Ferrari 49:03
plenty of people. They're never nice word Ron Howard those guys.

Jonathan Baker 49:07
Why, why? Why, you know, try to fix something that's not broken. You know,

Alex Ferrari 49:11
without question. Now you've gotten a chance to work on a Sundance winning film called Crown Heights. Is that correct? That's right. That's right. What was that? Was that the first time you were at Sundance?

Jonathan Baker 49:23
Oh, gosh. That's funny. No, no. I went when I was acting. Yep. And my first short film that ever acted and went to Sundance in 1997. And that's free.

Alex Ferrari 49:34
That's that's preset sexualize a videotape. So it wasn't even. It was it was Sundance, but it wasn't Sundance yet. Right. Or not. I'm sorry. 89. I'm sorry. 8989. I'm sorry. That's Yeah, yeah, it was. It was already Sundance.

Jonathan Baker 49:46
Yeah, it became something it was already pretty, pretty interesting. I had no idea what I was doing. It was it was makeup. I was a theater kid. And this was the first short that I kind of acted in and it was was quirky. And I when I when we got And I don't think I realized what sort of like it meant, you know. And so we I went kind of died and experienced it as a as a college kid. And, and then since then I've, because I teach at Carnegie Mellon, a feature film economics course, I told my my awesome administrators, Dan Martin and Dan green there, I said, Listen, you should, you should take the kit, you should take the students to cart to Sundance every year because it's such a great melting pot. So we've been taking the class there for, I don't know, eight years or so. So I've been in at Sundance either with Sony as a buyer. I've been there as a filmmaker. I've been there as a professor. And now when I came back, ironically enough, when Crown Heights was there and won the Audience Award, that was my 20th anniversary of the short film. So to me, it was like this crazy Cinderella moment where I mean, Crown Heights in and of itself was a Cinderella story at that festival. But, but, but that was pretty, pretty awesome. I felt like I just won the Super Bowl. It was pretty, pretty crazy.

Alex Ferrari 51:10
And that movie went on to be sold to Amazon, if I'm not mistaken. Right?

Jonathan Baker 51:14
Yeah. Amazon picked it up at Sundance. And, yeah, it you know, it hit theaters at the fall in the fall after Sundance. So

Alex Ferrari 51:24
it I I've worked on a project that wasn't that one Sunday, I won a few awards at Sundance, and it is a pretty, it's pretty insane. It's a pretty magical, it's pretty magical. But but but do you but do you agree? I don't mean to cut you off. But the whole Sundance mythology, and every filmmaker in the world wants to go to Sundance and be in Sundance and everybody wants to God for when Sundance or when an award at Sundance would be insane. But do you feel that there is this lottery ticket mentality when it comes to filmmakers where they just like they put all their eggs in the Sundance basket, or they're like, this is the this is the only way this is going to happen? And I always say I, I've donated to Robert Redford retirement fund quite often on my end, it's a donation. It's a donation. It's a Sundance donation. I do it every time I have a project. It's a Sunday, it's a Sunday as donation. Because it's a lottery. It's a lottery ticket, isn't it? Yeah. What

Jonathan Baker 52:24
is it now? It's like the submissions are up like above 10,000. At

Alex Ferrari 52:28
last 2018 it was 18,200 and 118. films, including shorts were accepted. Yeah,

Jonathan Baker 52:37
it's, it's a well, this is I yeah, it's it's sort of this weird thing. I look at it now. And it just has to do with I say to my head, say this to people like we're in a content flood, you know, it has to do with has to do with our iPhones and I'm picking up my iPhone here. It's like, it's a great time to be a filmmaker. But it's also a very challenging time to because there's just so much content out there. And so even this movie that I releasing in Halloween, which is called spacetime Manifest Destiny on space time, this is a little scrappy movie that is really meant for streaming. I mean, it is a virally, you know, kind of we did I just wrote it to try to, you know, for these stars, these up and coming kids,

Alex Ferrari 53:22
what's the movie about? What's the movie about clicks? So that's pretty much about

Jonathan Baker 53:26
Sure, sure, sure. The movie is about these two co ads, a physics nerd and a hot sorority girl who wake up after Halloween. This blackout party night and they realize that they've missed the evacuation of earth. And they have to figure out what happened and you know, chaos ensues and it's it's a stoner comedy, it's really silly and it's, it's, it's just all sorts of quantum mechanics fun, and it spoofs all sorts of bullshit. It's it's boost the matrix and Back to the Future. And it's got every single scene is like a little nugget for cinephiles like you and I so, you know, nobody can take this movie. Seriously. That's not the goal. You know, it's really just have a couple drinks or a smoke and let it ride on a Halloween, you know, night party or something like that. And if you know my sales agent, when we first started the show, if he goes, Oh, you've got a cult classic on your hands. This will be fine. I'm like, Okay, yeah, it's, it's really just really just all sorts of fun. But I wrote it with this viral mentality in mind to just try to, you know, just look at like, you can do give me a little bit of money. Okay, fine. This is what we're gonna do. And it's a it's a, it's, we work in a world where, you know, there's no middle ground anymore. You either have stars, and you can do what we liked it on. The banker were we just like, Listen, without Samuel Jackson, this movie does not work. You know, it's like, the only way this works is if we have that guy. And it was a casting strategy. To do that,

Alex Ferrari 55:00
but But with that said with the cats just want to I don't mean attractive I want to touch on the casting. You know, Sam Jackson is obviously one of the biggest stars in the world. He's very, very recognizable. And he does do the 200 300 $400 million movies. And he'll also do a lower budget independent film he's he just wants to work in it's the kind of actor he is. But the days of a movie star opening a movie are gone. But yet, there are gone. So you know, Sam Jackson's not going to open a movie by himself at $200 million in The Avengers, he will. But at a certain budget range, it makes perfect sense. And that's more for international than it is for domestic or how does that work? in your in your eyes? With?

Jonathan Baker 55:47
Yeah, that's a great question. Well, when I started at the studio, we were at a 6040 split. So I worked in the domestic marketing environment. And so we had, we had sort of the greenlight final say, in a lot of movies, because we were the majority of the market. Now with it being more like 6040 it's it's much more of an international greenlight, And therein lies the migration into where we stand today. Then you then you add in the the the fact that DVDs have disappeared, and then streaming is not not making up nearly the difference. And so we have this really interesting, you know, kind of transition period that we're in, and somebody likes him. He he performs across the board. So it's a it's a carte blanche, you're getting your movie finance kind of thing. Other people don't necessarily have that punch, you know? So it's, it's a case by case experiment to kind of see where the the equilibrium is with, with the movie, the banker, we're good, like Apple picked it up. They're releasing it in December, they're putting it in a small theatrical like, we're, we're in good. It's awesome. That one, that's awesome, that that's actually great. And, and it's a very, very cool story. And Sam did it because of, you know, the story it said about, it's written and directed by a friend, George nolfi, who you might remember from, like oceans series and Adjustment Bureau. It's a true story about the first African American bankers who had posed as a chauffeur and a cleaning guy to, to kind of help a white front man that they had figured out to buy the banks. And so they would, they'd buy these banks, and they'd kind of That's awesome. It was It's a crazy caper his story, and it's, it just goes all the way to Congress. And that amazing, amazing film. So Matt, really well,

Alex Ferrari 57:47
So so with a movie like the banker, where you've got Sam Jackson, which basically is the driving force behind it, meaning audience wise, the audience that you're going to find for that, I mean, obviously, the niche audience is not going to be people interested in banking, you know, heist films. It's about people. Right? It's people who are interested in Sam Jackson, at this point,

Jonathan Baker 58:06
you better believe it? Yeah, exactly. So and getting that script, getting that script, finance was more of like, there were so many, so many different people who said, but it's a movie about banking, I said, it's a very smart script. And Georgia is an incredible writer. And it is a movie about banking. So the marketability is tough. So we had to kind of get over that and make it for the makeup or smart number, and get real cast, you know, to make it happen.

Alex Ferrari 58:29
So then, then your other movie that you just directed Manifest Destiny down space time, that yeah, it's the complete opposite where you, you're, you've actually developed the product, which is much more niche, which is a stoner comedy. And that is the that is the selling point of that film. Because there is no cast of any marketable cast murders. Correct. Do you think and and this is something I've been, you know, preaching from the top of the mountains for all filmmakers, especially independent filmmakers, but this obviously can work with within a higher budget range as well, is that the future there is such a dilution of content. There's just an insane I mean, the TV alone, I'm still catching up on HBO shows from like, the early 2000s. I just finished the wire for the I mean, I mean, it's a great show. So there's so much great content. The only way that a film, any film, even without major marketing muscle or major star power, yeah, it's gonna be niche. So the more niche you get, that's what's going to cut through all the noise. Does that make sense?

Jonathan Baker 59:37
Yeah, that's exactly the that was my approach to spacetime. It was to try and I think your your, your, your, your universal, really, I think get this, which was, you know, I had some talented clients of mine that were just here. I'm an artistic coach and I tried to develop develop talent. And then I had a financial come in and said, I have this much money. Can you make a movie? I said, Okay, cool. I'm gonna back into this. This is how much you've given me, no problem. I have these two people that that are kind of oil and water to begin with, which is comedy gold to me. And let's figure out a subject that kind of feels current. And then let's throw in as many crazies zinger one liners that feel viral. And let's make a movie. And that was it. And it's really designed to be laugh out loud, funny, which I think for people who have seen it, they do think it's really funny. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It's not intended to make sense. In fact, it's making fun at this current science, which makes no logical sense.

Alex Ferrari 1:00:48
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show.

Jonathan Baker 1:00:59
So that's that, sorry. It's also existential. So for people who don't really understand existential comedy, like Waiting for Godot. It's frustrating, you know, like they're like, is a roadtrip movie that goes nowhere,

Alex Ferrari 1:01:15
is a stoner roadtrip movie that goes no,

Jonathan Baker 1:01:17
yeah. Sorry, you're frustrated. That's the point. Our existence on planet earth with Trump is frustrating. That's kind

Alex Ferrari 1:01:26
of, but let me ask you this, though. So and this is where I find the smart producers and the and the artists, they sometimes don't meet. This movie, obviously. Sounds more experimental. It obviously it's obviously a little bit more experimental. It's absurd. It's really, you're really swinging for the fences on this. Meaning that you're like, we think we have an audience for it. We don't know why. Right. But the budget, I'm assuming, is a much smarter point, then the banker? You got it? Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's a fraction, a fraction. It's craft services. It's craft services, basically, the budget for craft services on the bank.

Jonathan Baker 1:02:08
It's not a joke. It's not a joke. I mean, this is a kind of you know exactly what you're saying it is. It's that scrappy. That's all it is. It's Yeah,

Alex Ferrari 1:02:17
but a lot of filmmakers will try to make Manifest Destiny down space time on a and they're going to go out for six years trying to raise $20 million, because that's their vision. And that's where we all fall, and then some and sometimes every once in a while someone gives the money. Right? We all see those movies like How did this get financed? What is this game? Why didn't they call me? Why didn't they give me the money? I would have done something with that cup. odd. Exactly. Exactly.

Jonathan Baker 1:02:50
Yeah, it's a very interesting thing to try to find the I say the word balance or equilibrium a lot, because it is that it's just sort of like, well, what are you going to do? I said, and I put my artistic hat on. And I said, Okay, I like to, I like creative challenges. I like to kind of make the most of the situation. And I do have, I do have something I'd like to say, and I can do it with this money I can do with this to me in this movie. Manifest Destiny now spacetime. It was really, really fun that this movie was really fun to do, because it was about quantum mechanics. And I didn't know anything about quantum mechanics during this movie. It's awesome. And that was so exciting. I am so grateful to have had an opportunity to make this movie because I learned so much. So and to that extent, like the movie is really just to be it's supposed to be a physics for Dummies. It's supposed to be for people like me who grew up and missed physics class. And it's it's supposed to be like, Hey, did you know there's something called entanglement? Like? What are you talking about? It's not just a love position six nano particles entangle. It's kind of an awesome thing. You know. So it's, it's, it's making fun of myself, frankly,

Alex Ferrari 1:04:10
that's awesome. That's it. But that's a great thing to be as an artist where you can go out and do that and create and do it, but you have to do it because it's such an expensive art form. You have to do it for a budget you have to do it for like, like you say, it's smart number, which I'm going to steal now. This I'm going to use that all the time. Now. You have to do it for a smart number. Because it's, it's, you know, like I did my movie, I went to Sundance and I shot a narrative you know, waiting for guffman meets Best of Show up our filmmakers at Sundance completely guerrilla. And we did it for three grand and and I did I shot the whole movie to narrative and but I can't do that for 20 million. I can't do that for a million. I can't I can't I can't take those kinds of risks.

Jonathan Baker 1:04:55
Exactly, exactly. But it was good. Yeah, risk. This is a good That risk is the big, big word. I feel. Yeah.

Alex Ferrari 1:05:03
You mean? Like if someone would have given me 50 Grand 80 grand to do this? I'd be like, I don't know if this is that project. I mean, it's it. Yeah. This is perfectly designed for my audience. It's a perfect. Who's my audience for that people who are interested in Sundance filmmakers, my audience who knew who I am and what you know what I do? And that's and then maybe some people interested in the filmmaking process that that's Yeah, it's not a really lucrative monster. You know, it's not like a stoner comedy. There's a lot of people who want stoner comedies, but not a lot of people who want to watch this movie, but the $3,000 budget, right, I'll make 20 of those. Yes, yes,

Jonathan Baker 1:05:41
yes, yes, yes. No, you're absolutely right. And I think there's this you know, in terms of at least with you know, something with with my my stoner movie, there was something about it, that was such a particular balance of trying to get a get sort of a tone out. And at the same time, you are you are operating in this, like little tiny economic wiggle room where the concept was born out of the money, not the other way around. It was thought of

Alex Ferrari 1:06:18
as a shoot in the independent world. Yeah, yeah. And that. That was just, that was a fantastic challenge. It was just, it's crazy, you know, and the funny thing is that you have the experience of working with bigger budgets, you have the experience of working within the studio system. So you know, luxury. Yes, the luxurious Yes, their sushi, their sushi for lunch, and lobster tail, I got, yeah, I've, I've been on those sets. They're fantastic. But But I but I've also been, like, let's just grab that, that slice of pizza over there. And that's different for everybody. But it is, I find it at least as an artist, much more interesting to do a movie at such a ridiculously low budget, because I'm free to do whatever I want. And you're out there kind of on a tightrope without a net. And yeah, I as an artist, I love doing that. But I have to be responsible when you do that, again, 80 grand, not so much. three grand total, absolutely. Go take your risk.

Jonathan Baker 1:07:22
Yeah, totally. This, this is also an opportunity for me to return to performing because I play the agent in it. So I was going around the lens, and for that reason alone, like, I put my own money in it, you know, it's like, it's, it's like it's a it's a it's all in, you know, like, this is what you do, like, this is how we do this. And like, it's about the risk, and there's just, it's experimental, and it's fun. And that I'm not going to, you know, jump out of the office of when I was at Sony and jump into Sam Raimi, Spider Man, which was shooting at the studio stage across the street. Like, that's just not where I'm at, in my career. And I'm cool with that, you know, but, but it's pretty awesome to be able to walk around and see the scale, you know, to me, that's, that's kind of the most most fun about it. You know, it's just that that sense of the different resources that people people operate with?

Alex Ferrari 1:08:14
Yeah, okay. Yeah. You know, it's like I was talking to, there was an a director, friend of mine who was talking to was happened to be on set shadowing James Cameron. And on on the on the avatar set when the avatar was on. And he was there sitting there, and he's just talking him and then he started asking him like, indie questions, like questions like, like perspectives from an independent filmmaker. Sure. And James Cameron had no idea what he she couldn't grasp. Because he lives in his world. He lives in James Cameron's world, which is fine. We need we need a James Cameron out there. We need a Spielberg, we need to know and these guys who have these massive paint brushes and massive canvases because that's what we go the roads for. I say the same thing. It's exactly right. These are massive paint brushes and massive canvases and we want it that's why we go to cinema. You want that? That's good. But it was fascinating to me. Like if I like when I was on the streets of Sundance, and I was meeting producers in Brazil buddies of mine on set while I was shooting the movie, in the middle of the craziness of Sundance and they're like what do you do and I'm like I'm shooting a movie and you could see their face. Just go Yeah, yeah, you are you're doing you're like what Miguel? We're shooting right now in the confusion is so wonderful to see their faces. But it's fascinating. perspectives me like Peter Jackson on epsilon The Lord of the Rings. Oh man, can you I mean, this scope of these these guys. It's an army. It's an army. And also in a lot of people don't understand the pressure that is on the shoulders of these. These guys. Yeah, yeah $200 million on your shoulders. Yeah, you've got to be if that's a special kind of, you know, you don't have to just be an artist.

Jonathan Baker 1:10:09
I talked to my, my, my business partner nominee about this yesterday because we were talking about he's, he's an NFL star. And he's, he's moving over to acting, and he was he, he was one of the stars of Crown Heights. And we were producers on that film together. And then we've been producing content. And then we'll pick a couple pick a movie that he's going to star in very carefully. And we picked this next movie Sylvia's, the one with Tessa Thompson, I said, this is the perfect movie for him to star and because I like to, you know, when it comes to building star talent, you have to do it very particular, because people don't really understand the pressure that's on the star, they don't really understand what it's like for that person's face, to be plastered across the entire globe. And the level of our artistic integrity that it takes to build, you know, a star that can really open a movie or just that level of success, where the audience responds to the fact that they, they go to the movies, because they know that person makes good content. They go, there's, they're, they're loyal to that star, like Sandra Bullock I worked out in premonition and she's called Hughes evergreen, we call our evergreen, she'll, she'll open a movie, and the box office will sustain way beyond the norm, because Sandra Bullock just has the sense of, you know, this loyal following, you know, to create that level of value in the consumers mind to be of that much service to them, to be of service to the, to the, to the audience that you work for them. And to allow that to really be developed in a in a in a in a way that comes up from my partner and I because he has such a specific, classy taste. And this next movie is really quite classy. And then the next movie that we're planning to produce after that is is very special and will be more risky for him in terms of what he can do with his acting chops. But that sense of being able to just take baby steps and just grow organically the next from this, you know, this rung to the ladder to that rung, not that rung, don't go up there, you know, just just very, very mindful of the learning curve. And just the level of responsibility that you're taking on both economically artistically, those things are really interesting to me, you know, especially at my age, I just find it to be fascinating.

Alex Ferrari 1:12:41
I I've always found it very interesting to study Tom Cruise's career because he is just, he's one of those actors who exactly what you said to be of service to the audience. He, he does his own stunts, he does what he, regardless if you like them don't like them, but with all the stuff that he goes through, of course, as an artist, as an actor, as a businessman within the film industry, man he delivers man, those Mission Impossible movies like he's literally hanging from that airplane,

Jonathan Baker 1:13:11
like I just watched. I know I missed the last one. And I just watched it two weekends ago, and I was just like,

Alex Ferrari 1:13:18
if I need to lievable I just forget just like, it's just I can't I can't even I just can't even and the guys want 105 now How old is he like he's been drinking formaldehyde for years, you know, he bathes in in baby's blood. That's that's basically what I heard. I've heard that through the grapevine. That's how he states. Him and J. Lo, they have the same doctor. something going on there. Now, so I want to ask you, I'm gonna ask you a few questions that I asked all of my my guests. But one last question I want to ask you. Before we get to the final questions is, do you think that filmmakers moving forward, especially independent filmmakers, but even at filmmakers who aren't as independent? I mean, you do independent films like like space time, but you also do larger budget projects with larger stars as well? Right? Do you believe that filmmakers really need to start treating or start approaching filmmaking in an entrepreneurial spirit? and more of like a, like a, I coined the term film shoprunner. So it's kind of like, which is like looking at it, like how can I how can we recoup our money? How can we maybe generate other revenue streams from these films? How can we build our businesses, how build our portfolios, all that kind of stuff, even on even at the $5,000 movie level? Dude, if you did, if you did 20 movies at $5,000 a piece of each of those make $20,000 that's a business and people right so what's what's your point? What's

Jonathan Baker 1:14:52
what do you think? I, we live in a world where that's that's, that is front and center. Now. I mean, with the YouTube generation The influencers, the content creators, people like Gary Vee, I mean, these people are extraordinary. I'm very intrigued and fascinated by by, by that manifesting down space time isn't going to ever make its money back in terms of what was getting a streaming. But I've got these crazy, you know, t shirts and cups, where if people actually like it, they just go to the mall, and they can buy a T shirt that says, I'm not having sex with you again, fucker. You know, it's like, that's just funny, like sticky stuff. So there is this. There is this full service mentality that I think is filmmakers we have to have today. And it's just part of the way. And interestingly enough, historically, film is an entrepreneurial business. It always was. It's called

Alex Ferrari 1:15:49
Disney. It's called Disney. I mean, seriously.

Jonathan Baker 1:15:51
Yeah. It's just historically, it's a group of entrepreneurs that that left New York to form Hollywood, and ever, you know, it wasn't until vertical integration in the 60s that public money came in and everything kind of like kind of wackadoo. But look where we are now. I think fundamentally, it's still a great it's an exciting time to be a filmmaker, we have to continue to be entrepreneurial. You know, you brought up sex lies and videotapes, these are extraordinarily smart movies that are very, very creative and mitten in a mixing media like that one did, and finding just new ways to create really interesting stories. And I think it continues to go back to this a lot of people will say, like, well, it's so competitive, and it's competitive, because we still have to sharpen our pencils. Like, we need to be good storytellers. That's what we're that's what people are just looking for good stories. They're looking for good stories that are $300 million. Right? And they're looking for good stories that are like $8,000. Like, it's storytelling.

Alex Ferrari 1:16:50
Yeah. And I was I talked to a friend of mine at he works at Disney animation. And he was telling me, I'm like, how much how much did they make? He told us like he was telling me how much the animated movies were making they how they broke it down. Like they did the whole we made this much from this this like from merchandising from lesson that I think goes when it came to frozen. frozen meat a billion in box office. Yeah, but how much? How much do you think they made on the dresses? That's it? Just a little dresses that my daughter's bought? And every other little girl but how much do you think they made off just the dresses? Oh, it has to be a lot a billion dollars on the

Jonathan Baker 1:17:29
test and say Disney Disney makes 20 billion a year at least and doesn't it's like, the ratio is amazing. It's a toy company.

Alex Ferrari 1:17:39
You know? Oh, no, they're merchants. I mean, they are crazy. It's like George Lucas says the money is in the lunchbox, guys. I mean, it's, but they're entrepreneurs. This these an entrepreneurial I mean, they they're not about just making a movie. And then just selling that movie as a product. It's about 1000s of other ancillary. That's, that's why they're winning. Yeah. And boy, are they whether you like it or not, they're definitely winning. That's right. That's right. Am I real quick, you made a movie for Netflix as well. Right? But with Brie Larson.

Jonathan Baker 1:18:09
Oh, well, the Brie Larson movie was basmati blues. That's, that's, that's probably on its way into that. That distribution model now. It's, it's a musical with Donald seven, Sutherland and Tyne Daly and got that in Mumbai. That was quite quite a quite an amazing adventure.

Alex Ferrari 1:18:27
And you shut up and you produce that one as well. I co produced that. Yeah. Okay. And what was it like working with Netflix? I just love asking the producers who work with Netflix, I hear wonderful stories.

Jonathan Baker 1:18:38
Well, I have that that movie was made independently. And then it went into distribution through shout factory. And it's been, you know, handed over into, you know, the streaming environment. I haven't personally worked directly with Netflix, although I have some friends, some dear friends who are working at Netflix now. And I'm, you know, you know, it's just, it's an amazing. I mean, the evolution of that Comm. Company is is unbelievable.

Alex Ferrari 1:19:05
They changed the game, they changed the entire industry. Yeah, yeah. Whether you like it or not, they changed the

Jonathan Baker 1:19:12
way it's like, Yeah, what do you like it or not? Like, this is what's happening, you have to figure out what it means for everybody else, you know,

Alex Ferrari 1:19:18
What do you think? Where do you think this is all gonna go? I mean, I mean, cuz I feel that the what we're going through now with the industry, the film industry is what music business went through five years ago.

Jonathan Baker 1:19:28
Yeah, that's exactly where my mind went to. And I've been thinking about that even coming up, you know, for manifestation now, spacetime. That was written at a time when Trump was not president. And that's the joke. It's actually it's sort of like a doomsday scenario about Trump if if Trump had one, this is what was going to happen. Sure, sure. And, and even just in the last five years, looking at sort of how that process has evolved. Today, it's it is the As you know, dilution of the flood itself, the value itself and how we monetize things. It's changed drastically. So I don't know, in terms of the what we might say is the correction in the marketplace, I think that it puts a lot of pressure on us storytellers to be even better at what we're what we're doing. It puts a lot of pressure on us to be defined a certain unique voice, and, and try to, you know, cultivate our own sort of our own fan base and develop ourselves in sort of our own way. And, you know, there's this amazing expanding global universe. And I think that's what gives me hope. A lot of people get very Doomsday about moviemaking. I said, Why, said that, the expansion of the internet, we're only at 30 30% penetration to the 7 billion people out there, you know, this is a, this isn't an upward economic picture, it really just depends on you know, where you're focusing your own integrity, and where you're focusing your own skills. And, and not limiting yourself, I think, more importantly, than anything, so, you know, like, for me, I've got projects that, you know, I'm working on with clients or collaborators that are really really inexpensive things, because who's to judge? It's not about the budget, you know, to me, you know, it's sort of like there was there used to be the sort of like, well, you're working on Spider Man, it's like, so you're working on Spider Man, I know what that's like, you know, that's, that's 5000 people all running around, and who's really in charge? You know, it's not this. So it's, it's sort of where, where you can find your own sort of peace of mind inside the, the the opportunities is more important than ever.

Alex Ferrari 1:21:51
And like in the film, and like in the music industry, you know, artists now, the money is not in publishing, it's not in radio plays. It's in concerts, touring, or t shirts. And then now they're even doing like autograph and photo ops, they're selling for VIP tickets, and they're just, right. It's the it's the new world. It's the new Rayleigh we live in. And I think filmmakers need to think that way moving forward.

Jonathan Baker 1:22:16
Yeah. It's a very, very complete entrepreneurial spirit. Without question.

Alex Ferrari 1:22:24
Yeah. So I'll ask you, if I ask you a few questions, ask all of my guests. What advice would what advice? Would you give a filmmaker trying to break into the business today?

Jonathan Baker 1:22:32
Uhh filmmaker, I would say, focus on your writing skills. I think that, you know, it's interesting to me how important that skill is, and continues to be. And it's one of the fundamentals. And I often meet meet filmmakers and various types of, you know, crew and all that kind of stuff, who, who want to be writer directors or want to want to want to direct something. And I often just say, well, directors usually come in in a lot of different directions. But, but, but usually, there's like this writer, director, that becomes the real kind of voice that we're like, wow, how they get there. They wrote they wrote, they wrote that script. You know, there's something about that, that, I don't think that's going to change. So, focus on writing skills.

Alex Ferrari 1:23:23
Now, what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life?

Jonathan Baker 1:23:30
Oh, wow, that's really interesting. The lesson, I'm learning lessons every day. We all right, yeah. I think the lesson for me, it has to do with just usually with money, how to how to work with the amount of money that you have to, to do what it is that you're ultimately trying to do. And that comes down to being okay, working in baby steps. It's, it's so often that people like well, I want to do that. I said, Good. That's a big dream. How does that how does that start? It starts with you putting one foot in front of the other, and discipline. I come from a military family background. And I think discipline is one of the more fundamental things because it's in your control to have. Everybody can have discipline, you can have discipline right now. It's really just letting yourself kind of get into a mechanism and taking one step in front of the other like, like the banker jover tell who the lead producer. He's been developing and working on that film. I think it's for 20 years. That project has been in development since he was at Paramount. And that was for both of us. 1520 years ago, he picked that thing up. So these are these stories. These stories take a long time, you know, to come to life. And that's good. That's okay. You know Just take your time Be patient. And for me, I think that's been one of the harder ones to really come to peace with, you know, patients.

Alex Ferrari 1:25:09
What is the biggest fear you had to overcome when making your first? Your first film as a director?

Jonathan Baker 1:25:15
Yeah, that's judgment. You know, that sense of people we're going to not they're not going to like this. For me when i when i when i started directing because I'm such a musical theater nerd. Like musical theater, people get my sense of humor, Mel Brooks people do like I'm a weird, weird director, no questions, getting a sense of just that, that Zay zany, like, you know, tone that that is a place where you're just I go in knowing that a vast majority of the market is not going to like me. And that's, that's just that like, but those people who get at laugh and we share a smile, we share a wink, you know, so I'm pretty cool. I feel better about that now, and certainly with Manifest Destiny down spacetime. That's a departure into absurdist theater. It's absurd,

Alex Ferrari 1:26:07
Obviously.

Jonathan Baker 1:26:09
Yeah, it's nuts and so people who are like series might not go see Waiting for Godot and then then call me like, this is frustrating. This is this is like, you know, it's supposed to be challenging. And that's, that's okay. You know, so that's, that's an interesting question.

Alex Ferrari 1:26:25
Now, what are the what are your three favorite fears of excuses? Three fairy fears, three favorite films of all time.

Jonathan Baker 1:26:32
The producers great movie, Dr. Strangelove. And I would say you know, had to say about the original Star Wars like of course some something I mean, I just I'm such a john Williams fan. I miss I miss melodic musical themes in cinema today like if you're a composer out there melody melody Give me something give me something to like bring my spirits to. So yeah, that's those are those are those

Alex Ferrari 1:27:05
Now where can people find more more about what work you're doing and your films?

Jonathan Baker 1:27:11
Yeah, okay, so you are more than welcome to check out what I'm up to jbprodinc.com or Instagram JB studio LA is where I do a lot of my like coaching and that kind of thing. And then for Manifest Destiny down spacetime, you can find me on social media. spacetime is really the one to kind of search for but Manifest Destiny down is manifestdestinydown.com is the website and you can you can IMDb me whenever you want.

Alex Ferrari 1:27:43
Very cool. And you are Jonathan number five Johnson. Baker. Number five.

Jonathan Baker 1:27:47
Yeah, there are a lot of Jonathan Baker's out there. Number five. Everybody, I got to meet them all. I don't want to have like a john Baker club. Like, hey, let's all get together. Like let's all hang out. I think some of us actually look alike

Alex Ferrari 1:28:04
It's scary. It's it's quite scary, sir. Jonathan is it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show. Thank you so much for coming on, man.

Jonathan Baker 1:28:11
Thanks. Yeah, this has been great. Thank you so much for your time.

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