BPS 454: What Really Happens After You Write the Script with Michael K. Snyder

Alex Ferrari 0:00
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 0:46
My next guest is a graduate of Full Sail University's film and entertainment business programs. He's the founder of Crash Films Inc, he's an independent film producer. He's a screenwriter. This guy has done so many crazy, awesome things, and we're gonna get into all that, and we're gonna talk a lot about screenwriting and development, and also we talk a little bit about networking too, because he didn't just go out to LA without a plan, without knowing anybody. He actually had a plan in place. And he's doing such some really awesome things. And why don't we just go right into it with guest Michael K Snyder, Mike, you were the app. You were the guest on the first ever episode. The episode is now considered a part of the lost episodes. The first three are considered the Lost episodes. You were number one. You were my first guest, and it's so good three years later to have you actually back on so Mike, again, I want to say thank you very much for joining us. And it's kind of funny how we've come full circle now, all the way back from three years ago,

Michael K. Snyder 2:51
Man, I'm so happy to be back on the show. You know it is, it is. It's kind of funny that we that we have come full circle. You're totally right. And just thinking about some of the progressions that we've both made in our careers and how things have changed. It's just really interesting,

Dave Bullis 3:08
Yeah, and it's funny too, because when I, when we lasted the interview again, it was, it was remotely like we're doing right now, but I was in a actual studio doing it, and I had nothing but problems there. And now I'm doing it from my my office, and I, you know, it's just 10,000 times better. Because I remember when we had the episode and I listened to it, and I was like, What the hell happened here? And it was, that freaking recorder was not, would never work, right? So I the first two episodes, I use that recorder in this really awesome radio station with soundproof and then all of a sudden, now it's like, you know, I mean, it just even technology, how it's improved in three freaking years. Is unbelievable, crazy. Yeah, it is unbelievable. So, you know, Mike, since that episode is a little lost, actually, it is lost. Sorry, this is the episode is lost. You know, I want to dig a little into your background, for those of you, for those listeners who aren't really aware of, you know, all the things that you've done. So, you know, you were actually a graduate of Full Sail University. You graduated in what, 2010?

Michael K. Snyder 4:05
Um, oh, man. I graduated full sales film program in 2010-2011 and then I graduated their master's program couple years after that, so I moved out to LA, and about 2014 2015

Dave Bullis 4:27
Okay, so then, see, again, I just found out. I didn't even know you graduated from the masters program. So see, I'm finding out, yeah, so, so you move out to LA. Now we actually met through, through trauma, through Lloyd Kaufman, and, you know, while, and that was while you were actually at Full Sail. So when you were at full sail, do you think you know that you had a lot more opportunities that you wouldn't have had anywhere else? So sort of like to work a lot of these different movies.

Michael K. Snyder 4:56
I don't know. I don't really think that, you know, film. School in general matters, as much as a lot of people want to say, it does, I think you know, given what I know now, if I could go back, I probably would have tried to work a little bit harder in high school and tried to get into like USC or UCLA, just because I feel like, you know, it's really all about your network. And if you can get in out here a little earlier, it just makes it so much easier to meet executives or meet agents or meet managers or producers, because a lot of them are going to be in the same class as you whereas, if you're you know, in Florida, and you go into a school that anybody you know is pretty much paying to go to because it's private, it's it's just not the same pool of resources. That's not to say that they didn't help me get jobs out here and introducing to a lot of people, but I would say that a lot of what I would consider to be my own success is just based on me reaching out to people myself.

Dave Bullis 5:54
You know, there's an old saying, your net worth is your I'm sorry, Your network is your net worth. And that's 100% true. It really is. My honest to God, even, even if you do something as obvious as like crowdfunding, obviously, and you go out and you're like, Well, hey, I need people to invest in this project. Or if you're doing something like even this podcast, or even doing something like releasing a film, if you don't have a network built up, you really don't have any way to really distribute the thing unless you're literally trying to build it as you're doing it, which is, was just like shooting yourself in the foot. That's absolutely right. So, so when, when you say you should, you wish you had applied yourself in high school. You go out to like USC and stuff like that. I mean, no, Mike, I trust me. Man, I feel you. I did the same thing in high school. Man, I honestly, and when senior year came around, I didn't give a shit about anything. That's right, I literally, man, like, my teachers were like, Dave, you know, you don't apply yourself anymore. And I'm like, I don't care. I just want to get the hell out of here.

Michael K. Snyder 6:56
Exactly. That's how I was. I was, I was, I was like that before my I was like, that might be eighth grade. So, you know, yeah, I went to two different high schools, and I, you know, the funny part is, when I was a junior in high school, I cook in English. I was in an English Honors class because I finally had a teacher who kind of convinced me to apply myself writing. And she actually did an informational interview assignment where you had to reach out to a professional in your fields, or where you wanted to go into the career you wanted to go into. So I was like, Well, shit, man, I want to be a, you know, writer, director. I mean, Spielberg is not gonna return my calls. You know, I can't really reach out to Scorsese. So who can I reach out to? And that's actually how I met Boyd with Troma and started working, like the conventions in Florida with him, which is just really funny. And I think that was a moment where I my mind kind of opened up a little bit, where it was like, Okay, maybe you should just focus on this and focus on filmmaking, writing and your network. So when I went to high school, I mean, obviously in Florida, when you go to high school, there's not like a there's not even like a film history class, but like a film theory, like elective, it's all just the brass tacks high school stuff. And I would there was no way for me to apply myself in the career that I really wanted to except for in this one creative writing class, you know. And I think there's something to say about the arts programs and schools with that, because I wouldn't be in the situation I'm in right now if I hadn't, you know, taken that course and made that decision. And I wish there was more of those types of opportunities for people, you know, and students,

Dave Bullis 8:33
Yeah, it would show you that there's more out there than just sort of like, you know, you know, options A, B and C. That's right, so, and you know, that's something to that, you know, even when I was in high school, man, we would always watch these movies, all these freaking movies. We would go to, like, all the local video stores. You know, most people who listen to this podcast know what, what those were like, the blockbuster Hollywood videos. Oh yeah, man, and stuff like that. And then, but, but, you know, we would always rent these movies. We'd go out, and every Friday, Saturday night, or whatever, we'd go out, we we'd just be watching all sorts of different movies and all these crazy freaking stuff. And it didn't even dawn on me at that point, dude, that I could make a, you know, I could do this for a living. I just figured that, though everyone who wrote and made movies was like, you know, granted these special privileges by like, the president united states or some crap, you know,

Michael K. Snyder 9:24
Right, right, exactly. It's like, it's the unattainable goal. It's out there. But you have no what, you have no idea how to, you know, map your road success in that field, there's, there weren't a lot of resources, you know. And it's crazy. It was literally like, you go and you watch movies and you think, you know, I remember when I was 10 years old, I was watching close encounters, and I like, this is great, you know? And it was the first time my parents ever were like, well, you know, someone wrote that movie. And it was like a light bulb went off in my brain, like somebody writes movies, you know, it's the craziest thing. But now I think there's a lot, there's a few more resources just years later, and not that many years, but there really weren't when I was in high school,

Dave Bullis 10:14
Yeah, it was sort of like, you know, you have to go to college, you have to do this stuff. And when I went to it, you know, and when I went to college, I didn't know, I didn't know any exactly what I wanted to major in. And, you know, I bounced around from major to major, but I was always, you know, in my spare time, I was practicing writing. And I actually met the first book I ever got on screenwriting was a book called the screenwriters Bible by David Trottier. And and I bought that, and that just sort of like opened the floodgates. And now I was like, you know, getting different movies and trying to figure out, you know, how to actually, how they wrote that stuff, and how I do it. I'll still do it, but, but then you start to realize, oh my god, there are people out there who actually make movies. And I actually, and if that, I guess maybe it was, like, 2006 or seven. I actually, really got into it. And I was like, you know, talking to independent filmmakers. I found them on, on, on MySpace. Remember MySpace Mike?

Michael K. Snyder 11:08
Yeah. Man, yeah. Unfortunately, I do. I think mine's like, like, I think I went, went to great lengths to delete mine.

Dave Bullis 11:20
I mine was actually deleted for me. I got a notice one day. They were like, we're gonna just terminate all these unused MySpace accounts. Yours is one of them. And I said, Honestly, burn that guy to that burn that thing to the ground.

Michael K. Snyder 11:33
Yeah, please take it away. Don't let anyone see this.

Dave Bullis 11:40
It's so true. It's a It's, I have a friend of mine who still has, or he had one, and I was like, my god man, I go, that's like a something from your childhood. That's like an embarrassing moment. You're just like, Please never bring that up again. But, but, you know, I actually, I actually met him from filmmakers through my space and and some of these guys were actually in, like Jersey and New York and, you know, I never really put two and two together that there's, there was a lot more. There wasn't, well, there was a lot more in the in the whole bigger area. I don't want to say PA, because there really wasn't that many in PA at that time, but, but like New York and jersey, there was a few people. Most didn't respond back, because most were looking for, like producers that could fund and give them money, some actually money, right, exactly. And most actually did, though, you know, come back and say, Okay, here's what you can do. And then I just, you know, went from there, but, but you know what I'm trying to say with all this is, it's similar to what you did with Lloyd, and you reached out to him and said, You know, I can, I should see how I could actually work with this guy. And you made an opportunity for yourself.

Michael K. Snyder 12:46
Yeah. I mean, I took a class assignment, and I reached out on my shop an email. I was like, hey, I want to do an interview with you over the phone, you know, and just talk about your career and how you've made something out of nothing and continue to do so, and he responded back with a cell phone number, and that was, that was it. And then it was just really up to me to keep him pinned down and stay on top of them as much as possible. You know, whenever he was in town, or I went to New York and that saw him, you know, and different things, it was, it was just to keep, to keep the relationship alive,

Dave Bullis 13:19
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, now with technology, we're able to actually, you know, keep in contact with people a lot better, and so, and also it's a double edged sword, because then you're getting too much contact with with every at once, right? But, you know, but you made an opportunity, you reached out, even was for a class or and you made sure to make a contact. And I think that's so important. And I think, and also, you did the professional way. I mean, I just had Whitney Davis in the podcast for the second time, and we talked about networking the right way. And, you know, the first time that you, you contact somebody, you shouldn't be asking for something, right? No, totally. And, and, you know, you, you actually were offering something for Lloyd, and he took you up on that. And then again, now, you know? And here we are all these years later, because I and because, when you, when you were on that trauma film, we met through that, because that's when I met Lloyd, and then we started talking. And then I think, yeah, yeah, that's how we met. And then then there's it, you know, I've met a few other people through it, Lloyd. And, you know, Lloyd's always doing something on independent films. He's a connector man.

Michael K. Snyder 14:26
I mean, he's the great connector, you know. I mean, he just, if he's able to put you on the phone or in the room with somebody that you want to be on the phone or in the room with, He'll do whatever he can to be the one to do it. Who does it, you know? And and then he'll take all credit for it, which he rightfully deserves.

Dave Bullis 14:44
Yeah, and I remember reading his, his independent film book, and it was just absolutely hilarious. And I was like, See, he's, he's making independent film feel fun. It's not taken too seriously. And, you know his and when he was on the pub. Podcast, he he said he found a trauma in prison with Michael Hertz, and he was Michael Hertz's bitch, and they found a trauma in prison. And I'm like, wow. And afterwards, the after the interview, I said to him, I go, Lloyd. Do you ever think that someone's gonna listen to this for the first time, not hearing of hewer Troma? And think, Wow, that guy really started a movie business in prison.

Michael K. Snyder 15:24
Like, I hope so, you know, it's not far from the truth.

Dave Bullis 15:29
You know, Yeah, seriously, you know, I've and Lloyd is great. He's a very good connector. He's always connecting, you know, different people. And, you know, again, because he connected us and, and I, I've been on different film sets multiple times. And you so, you know, after you got off, this, you know, just to continue your story, after you got off, you know, the working on trauma, and, you know, you sort of, you went back to full sail. You know, at what point did you want to, did you realize that you wanted to go back for your for a Master's at full sail,

Michael K. Snyder 16:01
At the beginning, just because it was kind of part of the deal with my parents, and just the way that they structured their programs, it was like, if you it was like they had a deal, like it was like a Bogo, like, if you buy one degree, you know, we can give you The second degree at a certain cost that was 1000s of dollars less than it would have been had you decided to do it later. Because every so many years, they restructure their programs and they change the cost. So it just happened to be that when we sat down with a representative of wholesale, they were just, they're like, now if you want to take the master's program in business, you know, we can, we can, we can go ahead and lump it in with the film program, and it'll end up costing you less money later on. And, you know, it was like a was like, no time. You know, it was so quick, because it's such an accelerated program, that my parents were like, he might as well. And, I mean, at that point, it was kind of whatever they wanted to do. I was really doing it more for them. I think I kind of knew that I needed to move somewhere and just start working, but, you know, to keep everything cool at home and to put a diploma on the wall. I was like, yeah, we'll go and do that.

Dave Bullis 17:09
And, you know, again, it's good that you had a plan, because honestly, like, you can become like me, and, you know, obviously have no plan and just kind of figure your way out, but, but, no, it's good the unit, but

Michael K. Snyder 17:22
It's tough, man. There's not really a plan out there. You know, it's like, you just have to figure it out. There's not really a right or wrong way to do this. I think I you just have to, you have to do it. You have to just set goals and hit those goals. And those goals can be anything, as long as you know that at the end of that list there's some sort of success. And whatever that success is, and that be monetary success, it could just be moving to Los Angeles, or moving to New York, or getting a show, a gig, on a show, or anything, you know, there's not really, there's not really a way to teach this.

Dave Bullis 17:53
And you mentioned, you know, moving to LA, and that's actually when I want to ask next is, you know, yeah, so you got the Masters, and then you moved out to LA I think you said 2014 is when you move down.

Michael K. Snyder 18:04
It was, yeah, I mean, I'm horrible with dates, so I'm probably butchering it, but let's just say that. And basically what happened is, after I was done with the film program and I went to the Masters, all of my film school friends had already moved out to Los Angeles, so by the time I was done, you know, I had couches to sleep on, which is really key when you're moving from, you know, Podunk, Florida to one of the most expensive cities in the nation, it's nice to be able to find somewhere to sleep while you're getting your footing or finding your footing right. And so I hooked up with the Career Development Program at full sail, and they got me an internship out here. And I called one of my friends, and he was like, Man, you can come out here. You can sleep on my couch for as long as you want or need to. You know, I know that you're not getting paid anything with your internship. Just Just get out here. Like, that's all we want. We just want you out here. So I flew out and moved in with him and started my internship. And it was interesting. I was running a 10,000 square foot warehouse in downtown Los Angeles for more Tierney and Anthony Reva var and Sean wing and a few other actors, and Nathan Heaney, who's a great director of photography now, and they, basically, they pulled their resources. They rented this massive warehouse, right? And it's like really old warehouse in downtown, and they needed some young kids to run it, so there was one other guy who was managing it, and I interned there. And after a couple months, they hired me on as his like assistant. And then after a couple months, I got his job. So I ended up doing that for a couple years and opened a second location in Burbank with Stacy share, who everyone knows is Tarantino's producing partner, or was and her husband, Carrie Brown, who's a really good friend, and we did a lot of really cool stuff, man, and it was a lot of fun, and I got to meet a lot of really great people my first couple years out here, which is always nice.

Dave Bullis 20:11
Yeah, and you mentioned having couches to sleep on, that was actually one of my questions. Because having that network, since everyone already moved out there, you know, and having those couches to sleep on and places to crash and, you know, key, yeah, exactly it is key. And again, our your network is your net worth. And again, you you're able to actually, you know, go out there and not just be like, Alright, so what next? I mean, I've had friends Mike, who've gone out to LA and sort of been like, with, with no plan, and been like, Okay, what next? It's like, well, you're gonna, you're gonna suffer if you do that. Yeah, you're gonna really, really, reality is gonna hit you very fast,

Michael K. Snyder 20:51
Totally.

Dave Bullis 20:53
So you now, you mentioned you got the, you know, the warehouse job. Now, at this point, were you always writing scripts. And did you maybe have a few scripts to show to different like, maybe producers or agencies?

Michael K. Snyder 21:06
Yeah. I mean, I started writing screenplays when I was probably 11 years old, pen and paper. Then I figured out how to adjust the macros and word. Then I figured out, you know, you could get keltics and all these freeware. Then I found out that there was all these forums and independent script hosting sites online. So I was always putting material out there. I mean, I was just pushing short films and short stories and really shitty features out there and whatever I could just to get reads and get comments, because that's, you know, structure is key from from that point of view. So by the time I'd moved to Los Angeles, I had some features kind of under my belt, and I had one in particular that I was, I think, the most proud of, and working on the hardest. And basically I started reaching out to people. And while I was out here for those first couple of years, I was also producing short films, because I had this awesome 10,000 square foot warehouse that would be rented out for events and films and stuff, you know, half of the year, and then it would just be sitting there the other half of the year. So I would get my buddies who had RED cameras and lenses and all these different things, and we would produce short films, and we write them and produce them. And I had two that premiered at the Cannes Film Festival, you know, two different years. So I used that, and I used, like kind of my background, and I sent an email to Carson, who runs script shadow. Some people love him, some people hate him, whatever. And I attached a feature that I'd written that I was pretty proud of, and he agreed to host it on his site for one of the, you know, independent hostings that he does. And I would say I got 100 emails from people that were basically, this sucks, you know, you don't know what you're talking about. You're a dumb millennial. I mean literally that. And I got one email from somebody who ended up being my manager.

Dave Bullis 22:59
But, you know, am I going to ask you about the the manager email in a second, but I want to, before I do that, I want to ask you, why do you think you got so much hate mail? Do you think it was from a lot of well, no, I have my own theory about why you got so much hate mail. And my theory is this, there's a lot of people who have unrealized dreams, and whenever they kind of see someone coming down the pipeline, it's like a chance to sort of almost like, if I could throw off all this frustration and anger and resentment onto somebody else for just even five seconds, I'm going to take that shot. That's my theory about it. But why do you think you got so much of those angry emails?

Michael K. Snyder 23:34
Yeah, I think it's a combination of that. And I think that, you know, I may have come off as a little little arrogant, because I was like, Look, you know, I've produced these two short films. You know, I'm like, 25 24 25 years old. And I just could really benefit from hosting this script, yada yada yada. And I think it's a combination of people misreading my inventions and also just what you're saying. It's like armchair, you know, screenwriter reviewers, screen, screen. Screenplay reviewers, they're sitting there and they're rewriting movies in their heads and on their sofa. But they're not actually out there hitting the pavement, and because of that inability to motivate themselves, they, they're haters.

Dave Bullis 24:16
Yeah, it's that. That's what I think, is that they, they're very angry. They're very, you know, a lot of the lot of people in this business, there's a lot of awesome people. And you and I talk about this, you know, because we talk a lot, and we talk about how sometimes this business is stereotyped as everyone is bitter, angry out to get you. But there's a ton of awesome people in this business, and there are, man, yeah, totally, and it's just and, but it's unfortunate, like situations like that where it's like, you really see the sort of dark side, where it's like, what the hell is this? There was actually a screenwriting group I used to be a part of on Facebook. It was a Facebook group, and I think it was, it was set to private or whatever, and I remember people would post in there, and. And they would post stuff that was completely wrong, and you would sit there and you try to correct it, you know, and just not, not like, say, Okay, you're wrong, which is, say, hey, there's another way to do this. They would jump all over people. And finally, I said, Why the hell am I a part of this frickin group anymore? And it's

Michael K. Snyder 25:15
It can't all be negative, yeah, you know, it has to be. It has to be, there has to be optimism, because it's such a hard industry to break into, that if all people are bringing is negativity, you're just gonna stop someone from potentially a cheating or dream.

Dave Bullis 25:31
And it's almost too like when you know, when you're actually producing a film, you know, if you have people around you who are constantly just being like problem spotters and not problem solvers. You know, there's those, the type of people that you got to, like, jettison from the project as soon as possible.

Michael K. Snyder 25:47
Oh, totally, man. It's, it's, it's, you can boil it down to, you know, don't bring me the problem. Bring me the solution, really,

Dave Bullis 25:55
Yeah, yeah, you hit the nail around the head Mike and, you know, so, so as you sort of go back to talking about script shadow, you got one email that was from a manager who said, you know, I want to talk to you. So,

Michael K. Snyder 26:07
Yeah, it was like, I think you showed a lot of talent on the page. A little bit about me. He gave me his background, and he was like, let's, you know, let's grab some coffee. And he went and we got coffee. And I thought he was great. I was really knowledgeable nice guy, and, you know, I kind of just pitched myself as hard as I could, and at the end of the meeting, he was kind of like, all right, what do you want to do? And at this point, I had an idea of what I wanted my next project to be, and I had, I chose something that I felt was, you know, probably not going to get made. But if I could partner with the right person, I could get in front of the people who would potentially make it, and that would open all the other doors for me. And it was a script I wrote called The mouse Who Would Be King. And it's the story of Mickey Mouse and how Walt Disney developed and created Mickey Mouse. And it ends with creation of Mickey Mouse, and I wrote it in a very Roger Rabbit way, where you see what he's thinking and all these different things. And so I told him that, and I was like, it's never gonna get made, but let's put it out there. Let's take meetings, and let's get into development, because, you know, we have time. We can do this now. And he kind of like, what does that mean? He was like, Alright, let's do it. And we shook hands, and we went from there.

Dave Bullis 27:22
So and then from there? Did you go start actually going to, like, all these different, like, pitch meetings and stuff?

Michael K. Snyder 27:27
Yeah. I mean, we beat out the story. You know, I had the story because I grew up in Florida, right? And we went to Disney World all the time. And at Disney World, they have an exhibit called one man stream, where you can go in, and it's like a Disney museum. And then there's this movie at the end where it basically explains how Walt had created Oswald, the Lucky Rabbit, and it was stolen from him, or, you know, he didn't really understand the full paradigms of his contract and universal. Owned it, and he put all this work into it, and he's like, I should own this, because I put all this work into it. And on a train ride back home to tell his team and his wife. He started coming up with Mickey Mouse, so I knew that that's what I wanted to end the movie with. Like I had my end scene. I had the idea of Walt Disney going on a train and having, like, this just epiphany of Mickey Mouse. And the way that I wanted to dramatize it was to actually have Mickey Mouse walk on the train car with him. So we beat out the story, and we, you know, I read a bunch of books, and kind of just filled my manager's head with all this knowledge of Disney that he didn't otherwise know. And then we wrote it, and I wrote drafts and drafts and drafts and drafts while still working at the studio, and he was like, finally, you know, we nailed it down. And he started sending, I send it to agencies, sends production companies, executives, producers, all sorts of people. And then the real game began, and I started taking meetings.

Dave Bullis 28:57
So how long was it before, you know, you talked to the manager, you would beat it out. And before you got meetings, how long was that whole time period there?

Michael K. Snyder 29:04
Oh, man. I mean, I really knew the story, so I think it was kind of an easier development process, and it was just he and I. So there weren't a lot of coats in the kitchen. I mean, probably a six months, seven months, and then I started taking meetings.

Dave Bullis 29:21
So when you actually started to take these meetings, what were some of the what was some of the feedback that you were getting?

Michael K. Snyder 29:28
I, everyone loved the script. It was something where they were like, you know, we love the script, and we want to know what else you're working on, and if we can find something to work on together. And I started developing, like, I developed a TV show with one guy that didn't go anywhere. I developed a TV show with image movers, which is Robertson Max's company, that didn't go anywhere. And I took that and I took that somewhere else and everything kind of led into other projects. Every every meeting I had, every conversation I had, ended up giving me something else to work on, or they had something that i. Could fit into, or I showed some sort of interest in a project that they brought up in a meeting. And then, you know, that's really key, is you go in there. And of course, I'm nervous, you know? And I'm moved out here to do this, and I'm going to intermediate with these big guys, right? And they can be very intimidating, and the key is really to sell them on what your brand is and what your personal story is. And if you can do that, they're going to try and find something that they have that almost feels like a perfect fit for you, and then you'd have to capitalize on it. And none of those projects went anywhere, but they led to other conversations and other development things and and other specs that led to where I am today.

Dave Bullis 31:00
So you use that Mickey Mouse script, and that, that sort of became like a calling card script to get your story, yeah, to get your foot in the door. And they were saying, you know, did they say to you, Hey, Mike, we love, you know, the mouse would be king. What else do you have?

Michael K. Snyder 31:15
Yeah! I mean, there was a little bit of that. It was like, what else are you thinking about? Like, what else are you writing? And then, based on that, it was like, if I was writing something that was sci fi, they would say, Oh, well, we have this sci fi thing, or we are. We're looking at this book. What do you think about this book? Or, for instance, when I went to image movers, it was more so about the fact that I used to box, and I was an amateur boxer, and they had a producer who had optioned all of FX tools short stories. And FX tool wrote Million Dollar Baby, right? So they had optioned all of them, except for Million Dollar Baby, because obviously Warner's had that. And they were like, Would you be interested in trying to build a TV show based on these short stories? And of course, you say yes. And then I started developing that. And when that fell through, I took all of the FX tool references out of what we had been working on, and I wrote a spec pilot, just without all those references that I filled it with my own personal experiences from boxing. And then that pilot became my TV calling card, and then we sent that out to everybody.

Dave Bullis 32:22
And so when you sent that out to everybody, did you sort of have like, a whole nother round of meetings with, like, the same, oh, yeah, management companies, or was it different?

Michael K. Snyder 32:30
It's kind of like a like an album. Like, you write an album, and then you go on a tour and you do all these concerts. Like, that's kind of how I look at it. You write a script, you give it to some of your manager or your agent, they send it around to everybody. And then people finally get back home and they want to meet with you. And then you go on a tour, you know, and you're basically going to all these different generals and all these different meetings and and hoping that something turns into something else, you know, I never feel like the specific project that I'm going in with is going to sell. You know, I'm not there to sell that project. I always feel like I'm there to sell myself as a writer and to get on something either they already have, or just open that line of communication where I can pitch them something later on.

Dave Bullis 33:16
And so when you know you're building relationships, relationships, so now that's it, yeah. And so now they know when you come to the door, like, oh, you know, there's Michael K Snyder. He's, he's guy was, so, you know, brought the whole Disney project, and he's done this, and, you know, so, and you, you know, you so they're sort of, you're building a good reputation for yourself,

Michael K. Snyder 33:34
Yeah, because this whole town is relationships. That's really all it is. You know, somebody who I met, you know, five years ago, and was a, you know, creative exec somewhere is now, you know, VP production at a studio, right? And I can go to them and be like, you know, just just by just because I've kept in contact with all these people throughout the years, and then they move up and they change, and their mandates change, and you never know when you're going to have something that fits their mandate, yeah?

Dave Bullis 34:04
Because, you know, you know, tastes change, you know. And now everybody, I swear, I'm like, the number one question, and the number one thing I hear from doing this podcast is, you know, always have a TV pilot ready. Because now they all, they want something. Everybody wants something episodic now,

Michael K. Snyder 34:18
Yeah, it's interesting. You know, I knew with some producers who they don't want a pilot, they want to pitch, and the specific networks who they have a deal with, or whoever they've worked with, has, you know, their mandate is, you know, we want to hear the pitch and then develop the pilot, because there's money. And then some producers are like, we only want to take a spec pilot out, you know, we don't want to pitch, we don't want to buy, but we just want to get the spec and then take that out. So it's really, you know, it's, everyone's different. Every network is different, every company is different,

Dave Bullis 34:49
Yeah, and you know, now, with everybody else getting into the game, like, you know, like Amazon, I mean, even, even from a few years ago, you know, an Amazon, there's always rumors that Walmart is going to get into the cut. Custom content game and, I mean, you just see all these, these different players now popping up, and all the other players are still there, like your Netflix, you know, and then Hulu, and all your big, your big studios. So it's just, you know, now it's like, you have a lot of options as a writer.

Michael K. Snyder 35:16
That's right, yeah, you do. It's just, you know, getting into the conversation.

Dave Bullis 35:21
So as we talk about getting into the conversation, you know you had just recently pitched a treatment for a sequel for a very well known movie. And I know you can't talk too much about it, but you know, can you just tell you know, all the listeners about, you know what the treatment was that you pitched?

Michael K. Snyder 35:39
Yeah, totally. So basically what happened is, I'll go back and kind of preface it with another story. I was sent an article from you know, by my girlfriend, about this SeaWorld orca trainer named John Hargrove, who worked at SeaWorld for 14 years and became like this elite killer whale trainer, and quit, and he wrote a memoir. So, I mean, of course, again, growing up in Orlando, I have pictures of myself as a little kid, like sitting on Shamu, right, you know. So I'm like, I don't want to see black fish. I don't want to know anything about it. I know it's probably terrible, but I don't need that guilt, you know. So she sent me this article, and I read it, and I read it, and I was so drawn into that rabbit hole that I just, I totally just jumped in. And I bought his book, and I read it overnight, and I started, like, as I'm reading the book, I'm like, highlighting scenes that I see in my head and different things. And he's the author, is just so interesting. His personal story so interesting, beyond the fact that he worked at SeaWorld, and the day after I read it, my girlfriend was in Long Beach, and just randomly, it's really funny, met the author, who doesn't even live out here, and she went up to him, was like, You got to cost my boyfriend. He's got a great idea. He knows how to turn your books to a movie. He can do it. We can do it together, you know, give him a call. So before he could call me, I had already, like, typed up a pitch. You know, why I should write this movie and and what my version of his story is, which was essentially to take audiences into the tank with him and grow that emotional connection that he had with the killer whale, and so I sent him the email, called me the next day, and we talked for like four hours, and just became really good friends and and he was pretty much like, Alright, what do I sign? So from there, we wrote a 30 page treatment, and he took that and we pitched it all over town to all different companies, and the consensus was, this movie's great, you know, this idea is great, but we need you to spec the script. So I spec that feature out, and then we sent that back, and it just it, just at that point, you know, this is a matter of a few months just to go back to what we're just talking about, those companies that already changed their mandate. And it was like, well, now we're looking for thrillers, or now we're looking for Netflix or Amazon, and we don't think this fits that mandate, blah, blah, blah, so that's fine. So we sent that around and and I had met with an executive at Ellen pompios company calamity. Jane Ellen Pompeo is Meredith gray on Gray's Anatomy, and we had talked about a couple projects, and she is a big anti Sea World person, so, you know, they only have a TV deal with ABC. They don't do any film. So I reached out to my manager. You know, on my my girlfriend is like, you need to, you need to send it over to them. And I'm like, well, they only have a TV deal. And she's like, Just do it. Just do it. Because the moral of my life and right now is my girlfriend, Rachel's always right, to be completely honest with you, and every time she told me that I need to do something, she's and I disagree with her, I end up doing it. Everyone benefits from so I've learned that the hard way, but she's always right. And so we sent it over to them, and they called and they were like, We love this. You know, we don't know how to do this, but we love this. We want to reach out to someone else to try and see if we can partner with them, because we don't make movies. And it just so happened that the person that they wanted to reach out to was Lawrence, who are donner, who, of course, is the amazing producer of all the X Men films and Deadpool, and she produced Free Willy, and she's the wife of Richard Donner, who everyone knows is the director of Superman, the yeoman, faithful weapon Goonies all that. And they're big anti captivity, anti fur, anti zoo, all that. So we went down the line with them, and they were interested. And at the end of the day, it just wasn't something that they felt they wanted to go down again, because they again, they produce Free Willy, and they got kind of attacked for that at a time, and they're like, we don't really want to do that again. So my manager went in, and he met with the head of their company, and he was like, Well, what else Mike, want to do? And my manager started talking to him about a couple of projects that I had that everyone considers to be Amblin in tone, as in Steven Spielberg's production company, of course. And he was like, well, we've wanted to do a Dooney two for a long time, and we've heard a lot of pitches, and we've gotten a lot of treatments from basically every writer in Hollywood, and nobody can get, you know dick and Steven and Chris Columbus to agree on their version of the sequel. What do you want to do that? And my manager is like, yeah, of course. He wants to do that. I mean, he kidding me, right? So I get a call and my manager, and he's like, What do you think about the Goonies? And I'm like, Are you serious? Like, of course I want to do this. I mean, of course I want to throw, you know, throw my card in it, and really try to throw in my hand. But it was quite the challenge. So we sat down and I watched the original movie a dozen times again and came up with a with an idea for a new Goonies movie. Not exactly a sequel. I wouldn't, I wouldn't really say, but sort of like, how do I force awakens the Goonies right?

Dave Bullis 41:17
Yeah. And I think again, because I don't know how, I don't want to go too in depth with it, but there is, there is one thing I want to say that it was, I think was awesome that you did it when this was, since, since will when I Willie's treasure was found, the town itself was basically had become, hey, nobody, it's not special anymore, because there's no more, there's no more treasure to find, right?

Michael K. Snyder 41:44
Totally, it's, how do you tell this story You know, 30 something years after the first movie took place, and it's also, you know, I love the Goonies, and everyone loves the Goonies, but it's a, it's a product of it, of the year it came out, right? And you really, it would be really hard to make that kind of movie today, because there's just constraints with the way budgets work, and just having an all kid cast and all these different things. So it was really, how do I, in a way, bring the magic and tone of the original into today's marketplace and into today's kids in the world of today's kids. And then how do I bring select members of the cast back and have them involved? So I don't know. I don't know if the movie will ever get made. I don't know if there'll ever be a new Goonies movie, because it's hard for everyone to agree on something. But, uh, you know, Dick has it and and he's reading it. I'm just waiting to hear back from him now.

Dave Bullis 42:43
Yeah, him now. So do you ever think, Mike, that you would ever maybe use this treatment as, sort of, like a pitch for other projects? So maybe, like, you know, if you ever, they ever said, Hey, Mike, what else have you been working on? You'll say, Hey, I've worked on this goonish treatment for, you know, and as and I pitch it to Richard Donner. And, you know, would you ever, at any point, ever do something like that?

Michael K. Snyder 43:04
Absolutely every conversation I've had since I've brought that up in the room, you know, because everyone collectively loves the Goonies. So when you bring that up, and if you know they want to, kind of know what the basis of the pitch is. And you know, without giving too much away, you give that to them, and then they can kind of see how your mind works when adapting other material, you know, source material, which is key right now, because that's what everyone's doing. And it's actually funny, because of the project that I'm most excited about and currently developing, that I can't really say the name of what it is and who the players are, but it's two veteran producers who made a lot of movies, and it's an adaptation of a classic story by a well respected author. And I partially believe that, you know, it was sort of a combination of beneath the surface, which is a sea world movie, that script, getting me in the door with them, and then me saying, you know, oh, by the way, right now I'm also writing a treatment and pitching a Goony sequel. And here's kind of how I'm doing and how I'm adapting it.

Dave Bullis 44:17
So, so, so as you know you're going to these pitch meetings, and as you are sort of working on things, you know, one of the things that you and I always talk about is development and, you know, sort of, yeah, and sort of managing expectations. So what are some of the things that you know you can sort of discuss about, you know, development, like, let's just say, for instance, let's just give a scenario example. Let's just say they, somebody does buy a script. It's a completely original spec script. They were to buy it. You know what? What are some of the things that happen in development?

Michael K. Snyder 44:47
It's interesting. I think a lot of people, myself included, kind of always felt, or still feel, that once you get to the point in your career where you're actually. Really meeting with the real producers, you know, not just the assistants or anything like that, but the actual people who can sign a check that everything just changes. But the reality is, you know, the ceiling just gets higher, right? So you climb up to the top of Everest only to realize that there's another like, you know, 600 miles that you can't see because it's so freaking tall, and that that's how it feels. So I think, you know, when someone comes along and they buy a spec, they're going to do one of two things, if it's a big spec, like, if we're talking, you know, Blockbuster temple, they're going to hire a studio writer to do a polish. And that's partially to if it's a if it's a if it's a big studio, and they're they've got shareholders that they have to convince it's that it's like, well, we'll have the Coen brothers come in and they'll do a polish on all the dialog, and everyone will be happy to give us the money to make the movie. If it's a smaller, contained kind of genre film, like a 10 Cloverfield Lane or something like that, then it's a whole different conversation. Then, then you could be the sole writer, unless they hire a writer director who wants to come in and do a Polish as well. The other end of the coin is, when, in the situation I'm in now is I've had something pitched to me, you know. So I go in and I pitch five movies, and they want to make one of the movies I pitch, and then they also, but, you know, but first we want to do one of the ones that we're looking at with you, so they pitch me the movie. Then it's, you know, I got to look at the source material, which is a book. I got to figure out, how am I going to add my voice, or, you know, what's my style with this source material? And then it just begins this really lengthy process of development that nobody really understands, and I'm just still learning it as an as I go. Because one, every executive and producer is different, and two, it's just not something that anybody ever talks about in film school or anywhere else. So in this circumstance, it's, it's very much like, okay, read the book and then give us an outline, right? That was the first thing. It's like, give us an online of how you would adapt it. So then I sit down and I write, you know, like a 10 12, page outline, and it's basically in prose. That's just how I write my outlines. And I send it over to them, and they're like, Okay, great. Well, come into the office and we'll talk about it. So go in the office. They tell me what they love, they tell me what they don't really like, and then they tell me, you know, kind of how to help structure it. Because a lot of the studios, and this is fairly true thing, you know, they categorize writers in two different categories, right? One is a writer who can write character, and the other is a writer who can write structure. And the key, I think, is to really understand character, because they can give you the structure, if you can come up with the characters, and you can come up with what the real story is behind everything, and why you need to tell this story, and why these characters are going through what they're going through, and not just, you know, by page 12, we're at the inciting incident and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, save the cat if you can come up with the characters, they are paid to kind of look at it like math and look at it like plotting. So they're going to look at what you give them, and they're going to say, Okay, so do you think this section of your outline is like the first five pages? And you say, yes, that's for five pages, and then blah, blah, blah. And it helps you, it helps them to plot it in their mind from a producing standpoint, whereas you the writers, should be thinking about the characters. And when I look at a lot of movies and I see you know that, and I'm just unhappy with the screenplays, it's because they're coming at it from a complete structure and, you know, Stan or POV, and not from character. And I can see it when I watch the movies, and I can also see complacency, where it's like, you could have made that better, but you didn't, because of one of two things. One, you're getting a paycheck, and it doesn't matter, because you know, they're going to market a shit out of the movie, and millions and millions of people are going to see two because you're nervous. You're in the room with these guys. They have a bad idea, and you're afraid to tell them no, or you're afraid to say yes, smile and nod, go home and find out how to best tweak their ideas that are worse than the story. And that, to me, is what development is. It's this long process, six months to a year, where you're beating out the story with producers in the hopes that at the end of this process, they're either going to hire you to write the script or they're going to make a deal with you where you spec the script and then once the project gets funded, then you get paid.

Dave Bullis 49:45
Yeah! And, you know, there was an article, I think was in The Wall Street Journal about how, you know, why do so many of these, these big budget movies, feel the same? And that was the answer, was, they think that there's too much, you know, save the cat structure in there, because

Michael K. Snyder 50:09
It's all structure. Yeah, you. know, and that's great. I mean, you need structure, but you should be the story guy. The writer should be the story guy. The writer should be the person who makes the audience feel for the themes and the characters and the film or the TV series, the executives, the suits, the money people, they should be the structure, guys and girls. They should be the people who are looking at it from a plotting POV, so that when they call a director who comes in, they can beat out the acts with the director, and he totally understands what they're saying. It's like math. Let them do the math, but you have to provide them with the numbers.

Dave Bullis 50:48
So, and, you know, I was talking to somebody about this too, was, you know, if you look at movies in from, like, the 70s and the 80s, you know, there's, there's all these, you know, really unique movies. And you sort of, as you sort of get to the sort of end of the 90s to now, you can see the big difference. And the big difference is it's almost like with now they want to sort of have creativity controlled, where they know sort of what they're they want to have it so it's almost like the project is handheld from all these steps. And they're sort of like, okay, you know. Now on page 17, this has to happen. PAGE 25 this has to happen. Stuff like that,

Michael K. Snyder 51:24
Right, right! Totally. It's interesting. I mean, I've never thought about writing like that ever in my life. I've never I've read all these books and I've taken all these classes and I've and I understand the logic, but I've never truly approached writing that way. I've always approached it as what is the story? Why is the story relevant? And how do I fit these characters and these themes into today's marketplace? That's the only math I ever do. I don't worry about what happens by page 30 or page 25 or page 60, not, at least until after I've written out an outline or a treatment or even a first draft, then I start to think, okay, how can I Whittle this down? You know, how can I get the action started earlier? But i The key is really to just do it, get it finished, and then you can always go back and correct it.

Dave Bullis 52:10
Yeah, it's like Tarantino, the Cohen brothers. They don't write, you know, by that either, you know, I know there's a lot of other like Kevin Smith, Robert Regas, I know those don't, those guys don't write by the whole like, you know, hey, we have to have this happen by this page and stuff like that. And I think, you know, yeah, I think what had happened is, I think as you sort of try to crack this nut, so to speak, I think that's where you see guys like Sid field and Blake center with Save the cat. They sort of wonder, you know, okay, how did they write the somebody whoever script it is, how do they write this script and what do? All right, good. What are all the good things that they have in common? So these scripts that are, you know, the top one percentile, what are they actually doing versus what they're not doing? And I think that then that's where all these systems come from, like, you know, and that's where all those books come from.

Michael K. Snyder 52:55
Yeah, it's hard to understand, and it's hard to read the books, and it's mark to kind of get what you know, the end goal is and understand the structure. But I just, I don't think anything should ever be approached with structure in mind first. I'm not saying you should have a first act that goes, you know, 80 pages, but I am saying that, you know, if you look at some of your favorite movies like you just said, they're not really going off of any structure they're going off of. What's the best way to tell this story?

Dave Bullis 53:25
Yeah, and I think also that, I think that's why independent film now is sort of having, you know, is sort of why, you know, crowdfunding and everything else, I think, is that becomes more popular. That's going to be where, you know, more people are going to say, you know, I could just crowdfund my movie for maybe 20,30, $40,000 and at least shoot it the way I want to, rather than rewrite it and try to actually, you know, sell to an agency or whatever, right? Yeah.

Michael K. Snyder 53:50
And, I mean, you can, you can definitely do that. And there's definitely ways to monetize that and build a career off of that. I think my approach is, how can I get into the system and not change the system, but just bring that storytelling approach into the system with with some of the bigger titles and and bigger films, and to not be complacent and just saying yes to everything, but to find the best way to tell the story. Because if you find the best way to tell a story, and you can pitch it to an executive or producer, and they know that what you're saying makes sense and is right, they're not going to tell you, no, they don't want to make a bad movie. Like the goal isn't to make a bad movie. You just have to be 10 steps ahead and be willing to tell them your idea.

Dave Bullis 54:40
Yeah, it's, that is, you know, key is sort of how to communicate, right? So, how do you communicate something without, actually, you know, nobody wants to say no, but, but you also can't say yes, so you have to communicate in a different way. And I remember,

Michael K. Snyder 54:55
Yeah, I mean, it's risk management, you know, you have to give them a way that they can tell their boss or tell their finance. Years, or tell the studio that they have a deal with you have to give it to them so that they can, they can express the idea or the story or the structure or whatever you're presenting them with in the best way to their bosses, right?

Dave Bullis 55:14
Yeah, exactly because that way, you know, obviously it's sort of, you know, that nobody wants to be the person that says no, because I was reading a book about this a few years ago, and they said, you know, if you don't want to tell you know, the next Vince Gilligan, no. And then, you know, if you, if you work for that, that that studio, and then all of a sudden, it's a hit, and then he comes back, says, hell, aren't you that person that said no to me, aren't you that guy? Holy, you're totally right. So, you know, and Mike, I just wanted to ask one. I have a few more final questions. I know we're starting to get out of time as I see the count. I didn't I realized this. This conversation flew by. I didn't even realize how long we were talking. So, you know, for writing competitions, what do you think are some of the top writing competitions out there right now for writers?

Michael K. Snyder 56:01
Oh, man. I mean, I think it all depends on what your goal is. If your goal is to get some representation, then I think, you know, nickels is always great because it's such a well respected contest. I think that the tracking boards contests are really great. I know a lot of people get reps based off of that. If you're trying to make some money, you know, put a little bit of money in your pocket, then I think there's a lot of genre based writing competitions that have money prizes, and maybe their contacts aren't as good as some of the other ones, but you're going to get some money out of it. So I think it's really how you want to approach it. Do you want to build a career and get representation, or do you want to get, like, 40 G, you know, in the in the bank

Dave Bullis 56:42
And, you know, because I know you went through the, you know, script shadows website, and you were to, you know, I was just wondering, you know, because I know, again, as we were talking about opportunities, you know, all the different opportunities out there. And, you know, that's, that's why I asked that question, just to see, because every time I turn around, there's a new writing competition opening up.

Michael K. Snyder 57:00
And, yeah, I don't know a lot of them, you know? I mean, I don't, I'm not really familiar with them because I don't enter a lot of them. I mean, I think blacklist is great if you have the money to spend on evaluations. I think, I think blacklist is, is still a very good asset. I like I said, I love the guys at the tracking board. I think what they're doing is is great, and they have a lot of great managers and agents on their review boards that do judge these scripts, and they do sign writers and give them other opportunities. And I know that from a genre POV, like, if you're doing a horror script or a sci fi script, there's tons of great genre contests, I don't that are offering cash prizes, or, you know, the opportunity to pitch a producer or, you know, producers are partnering with these contests. I don't. I just, I'm not well versed in their names and what they are exactly, but I agree that they're popping up every day,

Dave Bullis 57:52
Yeah, particularly the blood list that came out of nowhere. And when I heard about what that is, I was like, wow, that's a fantastic idea. Yeah, it's a good one for sure. And by the way, for those listening, the blood list is, I realized I said it Mike. I was like, so the blood list is, the is a, is the ranking of the top horse unproduced horror scripts that are out there. And this was put together by, I think, is it Kelly Marshak? Is her name, or Kelly March? I think so, yeah, it's, it's she actually put this together, and it's sort of like the blacklist, but for horror scripts. And, you know, I can

Michael K. Snyder 58:27
Horror is so underappreciated, man, and I was just having this conversation that is, like, some of the best directors come from our like, even someone like Spielberg, like, if you watch his action sequences, and like Jurassic Park, or some of his even the close encounters and et they're all tension and horror based, like it's all about building the anticipation for the scare or the reveal. And that's all classic horror filmmaking. And I think that the genre is totally underappreciated, especially when you look at so many great directors who come from it.

Dave Bullis 58:59
Yeah, it's so true. I mean, field girl, all the people who started off with horror, and, you know, like, particularly, like guys like Sam Raimi, they sort of

Michael K. Snyder 59:08
Totally, I mean, look at his career, like, it's, it's, it's amazing. He has the career that anyone could dream for.

Dave Bullis 59:14
Yeah, he does. And, you know, he's a great guy, yeah, and he's been, you know, making all these great projects. And now, look, he's got the evil, dead TV series,

Michael K. Snyder 59:26
Exactly, and it's great, you know, he's doing great things with it. He's just, just launched Skydance television. He's got a whole new TV, you know, production company, and he's really taking advantage of the wonderful opportunity that is today's current TV market,

Dave Bullis 59:42
Yeah, and, you know, that's when, you know, you're over talking about episodic stuff. And that's something else too. Is again, because everyone, I swear, Mike, it's always about, you know, hey, feature films are great. But you know, do you have anything episodic? Do you have anything that, like a TV pilot that could, you know, go on for 18 years, like, you know. But, but, yeah, no, totally, yeah. Yeah, and you know, that's, that's always something I'm too in the back burner that I've always been making sure I have is at least a couple, you know, TV pilots. And, yeah, exactly, you know, anything you know, just just making up, you know, just just in case, they actually say, you know, hey, you know, if what else do you have? And you know you're ready to be prepared. And I also think, like, as we know, we talk about expectations and development and all and networking and all this stuff that we've talked about, I think being prepared, yeah, you know, I think you'll agree with this. I don't think you're ever really 100% prepared. You can just do what you can do. And if, and sooner or later, if you keep trying, you're going to be in the right place at the right time.

Michael K. Snyder 1:00:50
You got to love the process, you know? You got to love the process. You got to be willing to get a day job if you need some money. You got to be willing to sleep on a couch if you don't have a place to stay. You just got to love the process of hitting the pavement, finding representation, and then taking that and exploiting that to the ends of the earth, to meet all these producers and executives, and then hoping that you get into development. And then you have to learn to love the process of development, which is hard because there's not a lot of money in it. If there is any money at all. It's not a ton up front. So you have to really love the process and love what it how it feels to crack a story and to negotiate for plot points with executives and defend your case. You have to learn to love that. And if you can learn to fall in love with that, then the rest of it is cake.

Dave Bullis 1:01:40
Very well said, Mike, Mike, so we're just about out of time. And I agree, Mike, you have to love that process, and you're just in closing away. I just want to ask, you know, where people find you out online.

Michael K. Snyder 1:01:53
I'm always, you know, I'm on Facebook. Michael K Snyder, I'm on I'm on Twitter at MK Snyder 1990 I'm always looking people to reach out and connect, and if I can help, I'm more than happy to I'm always looking to collaborate on different things and help put the pieces of the puzzle together.

Dave Bullis 1:02:12
Yeah, and everyone, Mike is a fantastic guy. I've known Mike for years now, and as I'm going through my just my mental role decks, Mike, I think I might might have known you longer than anybody else. I don't know, though, there's two other people I've had on a podcast where I've known longer than you. So you're like, you're like number, you're like the third or fourth person in life, people I've known long. I love it, but because I just remember, there's a friend I had on here from middle school episode 1/5 with Chris per minute ago. And Chris actually teach your Chris actually was a producer on game over and he also actually now teaches film and TV production. And amazing. That was, that was a fun interview, and I'll give you this little snippet. It was just funny because he, he's like, I'm in. I'm teaching now. He's like, so he's like, Don't curse. Don't tell any weird stories before. And I'm like, Well, Jesus Christ, man, that's all I do is curse. If you take that away from me, I'm not Dave Bullis anymore. I All I do is Chris tell weird stories.

Michael K. Snyder 1:03:06
That's awesome. That's your voice.

Dave Bullis 1:03:09
Love it. Yeah. Very, very true, Mike and Mike again, I want to say thank you so much. You and I have been friends for years. You know you're somebody whose opinion I really trust, and I really, I really just know that you were going to hit a huge, colossal Grand Slam soon enough.

Michael K. Snyder 1:03:27
Thanks, man. I really appreciate that. And the feeling is mutual, my friend, you know, I think that, yeah, your opinion is one of the opinions I value more than many others. You know, I send you work before other people see it, because you're that guy, man, you have, you have great taste.

Dave Bullis 1:03:44
Oh, thank you, Mike. I appreciate that. And everybody, everybody, make sure you go check out, Mike. Seriously, he this guy is always on the ball. He's always doing something really, really cool. So please go check out Mike. And Mike, anytime I'm gonna come back on, please let me know. I'd love to have you on, and I wish you the best of luck, man in everything.

Michael K. Snyder 1:04:03
Thanks, man, I will. I'll take you on that

Dave Bullis 1:04:05
Sounds good buddy. Take care. Have a great Saturday.

Michael K. Snyder 1:04:10
You too, my friend.