BPS 451: Making Movies Without Sight: Inside the Creative Mind of Gough

Alex Ferrari 1:49
Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.

Dave Bullis 1:54
On this episode of the podcast, I have a very special filmmaker, because he has a very special journey, a very special case, even more so than usual, because he's actually blind. This person is the first legally blind person to write, produce, edit, direct and start a feature film, which is the first time it's happened. I mean, you know, and then he's gone on to write, produce and direct many other projects, including a number of films, audio books and books. His film production company, beer nuts productions, has worked with some of Australia's finest actors, artists and production crew, and he has been able to, you know, he's doing, you know, following his dream, he's doing it right there in Australia. And that's one of the things about this podcast, is pulling people from all over the world, and it's seeing that all of the the great things are happening all over the place, and we talk all about that stuff, and how do you make a film when you're blind? And, you know, all the doors were closed in his face, and nobody really took him seriously. And now he's out there doing it, and now he's on this podcast with guest Gough. You know, by the way, you were actually the first person from Australia that I've actually had on the podcast.

Gough 3:03
Oh, I feel honored. I feel honored. So, yeah, you're making it global. Now you're going global.

Dave Bullis 3:11
Yeah, exactly. We've had Canadians on. I've had some British filmmakers on, and now, and I've had New Zealand filmmakers on, so now we're going to go to Australia now.

Gough 3:23
I'm a little upset that New Zealand came before Australia. I do have to say, I mean, you know, I don't know that that's quite I think you've got the order there a little bit mixed up, you know. So, because, obviously, in Australia, we make all of our jokes about New Zealanders, like you guys do about Canadians, you know. So, you know, I'm just a little bit upset that New Zealand came first.

Dave Bullis 3:45
I'm sorry, man, it what happened was I, she reached out to me, and that was our good friend at films PR, and she actually reached out to me and just said, Hey, Dave, would you want to do this? And I said, Sure. And I, you know what, I, you know what, golf. I did not think about it though. I should have, I should have said, I'm sorry, I have to have somebody on Australia first, and then I can have you on,

Gough 4:09
You'll know for next time.

Dave Bullis 4:11
Yeah, exactly. I'll make sure to make that. I'll never make that mistake again. I swear to God. So Gough, if we get started, you know, just discussing your career, you know, you have a very interesting, you know, backstory, because, you know, I've never had anyone on the show before that has that is actually legally blind, and you're a filmmaker, and, I mean, I think that is so unique and so just incredible. And I think, you know, a lot of people are interested to hear, you know, how you actually your process and how you work. So, so, just to get started, gov, you know how, when, when did you get started? Actually, you know, making films and making movies.

Gough 4:53
Well, Beer Nuts Productions, which is my production company, I started that back in 2006 So a long time ago now, and I first started like I had a bunch of scripts that I had written, and I was sending them out to distributors, networks, production companies, private investors. I mean, I was sending out what to play. You couldn't even imagine the places I was sending out pictures and scripts. And it became clear to me that nobody wanted to pick up my work, and it was based purely on the fact that they knew I had a disability, and they're like, Oh, he's blind. This is what the hell is this guy thinking? So, you know, they weren't, they weren't actually, you know, reading the work properly. They were just, you know, dismissing me out of hand. So in 2010 I thought, well, the best thing to do is to make a film myself, and I'll show them that I can actually do what I say I can do. So that's when I made my very first film, which was a 90 minute full length documentary all about disability and mental health called I will not go quietly. And so I did all of that myself. So I shot it myself. I've edited myself. I got the funds myself. You know, I bought my own equipment. I did, did the lot myself. And so I thought that would that that's part of the the narrative of the story of that particular documentary is, is actually showing that, yes, I can actually do what I say. I can do as well as obviously, we interview 24 experts like neurosurgeons and school teachers and psychologists and even comedians as well, to get their take on disability and mental health issues and stuff like that. So after I did the documentary, then I thought, well, you know, I want to keep going with doing what I'm doing. And so, yeah, I just started making my own, turning my scripts that I had that I was sending out. I thought, well, I'll just make them myself. And so I, yeah, I just funded them myself and started the the gravy train, so to speak.

Dave Bullis 6:53
So just to sort of take a step back, when you mentioned, when you were, you know, getting rejected, and they were sort of saying, hey, you know, what does this guy know? What you know? What kind of scripts were you writing? Was it like a full was it full length scripts, or was it like short film scripts?

Gough 7:08
I had everything, man. I mean, I've been writing ever since I was a little kid. So I had everything from TV series to short films to feature films, like things that were big budget and things that were tiny. And so I was sending out all different kinds of things to all different kinds of people. And, yeah, just putting together some what I thought were really strong pitches. And yeah, like I said, just nobody wanted to know. So I figured the, you know, I didn't want to give up. I mean, I figured I spent all this time writing, all this, this great work, you know, I want people to enjoy it and be entertained by what I do. So, you know, the best way to do it is to just do it myself. If they're not going to help me, then I'll just do it myself, pretty much.

Dave Bullis 7:51
Yeah, and that DYI attitude, the do it yourself. I think that that you know, as we're, you know, in 2017 that attitude is prevalent everywhere, because you can make your own film now, you know you can shoot it on a cell phone, as we've had Sean Baker, who did tangerine, he shot his film on a cell phone. You can distribute it yourself. Jason Brubaker on talking about that. So you know, things have definitely changed golf, where you can now do those types of things yourself. And you can be, you could be almost the one man army. You know what I mean? You can go out and produce your own material and say, You know what I can I can do this stuff, and, you know I am going to do it. And here it is.

Gough 8:32
Absolutely man. I couldn't agree more. Actually, there's a very famous Australian comedian, writer, producer, director, he'd done a bit of everything called Ian McFadden, who was huge in the 1980s on Australian television, and he now is a lecturer at university. And I remember meeting him one day, and he said to me, he said, Goss, it's never been easier to make because he was talking about TV. Said it's never been easier to make a TV show, but it's never been harder to get it out. And he's absolutely right. I mean, the equipment prices have gone down like you say. You can even shoot stuff with a cell phone if you want to. So that, I mean, so it's never been easier to make it and edit it and get it packaged and ready to go, but it's now so hard to get it out to the public, because it's hard for for you to promote your work and get the public to your particular website, you know, to your wherever you're housing your your gear. It's hard for them to for you to put your hand up in such a crowded marketplace and say, Look at me. Look at me. So it's never been easier to do it, but it's also never been harder to get your work out there for people to enjoy.

Dave Bullis 9:42
Yeah, it's the new war of eyeballs and ears and and you say, and you say, you know, how do I get people to see my stuff? How do I get people to listen to my stuff? How do I get people to read my stuff? You know, since content creation is increasing every every year, every month, every. Week. Every day, Every hour. It's like, you know, and there's so much stuff being, you know, out there, and the barriers are gone. And the sort of, you know, the barriers entry are gone. And now, you know, everyone has the internet. Well, well, for the time being, here in America, we all have the internet. I don't know if you, I don't know if you know this golf, but the they might end net neutrality here, and I don't know how that's going to play into content creation and all this stuff, but we'll see about that. But so, so, but just to sort of go back what I was talking about with everyone being able to make stuff, it's, it's the War of, you know, how do you stand out from the pack? So, you know, and I do want to talk also about your documentary, but as we're on this topic, you know, what are some of the things that you found golf that there that enable you to stand out and, sort of, you know, stand out from the pack.

Gough 11:01
Well, with each project I do, because I've done 14 films now, so with each film that I do, I do a reasonably heavy marketing campaign. I've got a young lady called Amy on board who helps me with all my marketing stuff. And so we do social media stuff, but we also do a lot of old school marketing campaigns. So we contact the media, you know, send out your press releases to to local media and international media, and even, like podcast like yourself and and, yeah, just, just contact as many media outlets as we can and try and get some some interview and some press that way, as well as, obviously, the social media kind of kind of angle as well. So, we sort of hit it in two ways. Is how we go about at the moment. So yeah, every time we do a film, we do a reasonably heavy kind of marketing campaign to go with each film.

Dave Bullis 11:51
So is there any particular like social media, channel or outlet that works best for you?

Gough 11:59
Well, I have found Facebook and Instagram to be the two best. But I mean, I've heard other people love Twitter and use Twitter a lot. I'm on Twitter, so if people jump on all of those platforms and type in beer nuts productions, obviously I'll come straight up, and I obviously encourage people to like, follow and share my social media pages. So yeah, just beer nuts productions. But yeah, I've found Facebook probably to be the best, and Instagram as well. But, I mean, I think it's a bit of horses for courses, you know, whatever you're doing. I mean, everybody's different in their genre, in their style and their way they go about doing things. I mean, so yeah, it's a little bit that works for me, but what works for me probably won't work for another guy. You know what I mean. So, yeah, but I have found them to be helpful, but you need to do more than that. You know? You can't just put something up on YouTube or put something up on Facebook and expect it to go insane. You know, you got to it's a full time job. Marketing is, that's why I had to hire somebody, because it really is. It's a full time gig, is marketing, and so you need, you need that extra help to make sure that people can enjoy your work. Because at the end of the day, what's the point in making something if people aren't going to enjoy it? I mean, that's the whole point of doing this, is so that you can entertain people and make people happy. I mean, that's why we all do what we do. So, you know, it's important that you get the work out there so people can enjoy it.

Dave Bullis 13:27
Yeah, I agree completely. Golf and, you know, it's And speaking of, you know, all these social media channels and stuff I wanted to ask, because I haven't had a chance to really ask anyone this yet. So you're very close, well, reasonably speaking, to China. And in China, the number one social media app is, is Weibo. Have you ever attempted to use like webo for anything? And the reason I bring that up was just because, you know, the country has, you know, I think a couple 100 million people on there. And I've always, I just as a marketer, you say to yourself, my God, a country that has 100 a couple 100 million people then, and it's legit, you know? And it just and it just keeps rising as China keeps pulling more and more people towards the city from rural areas, till they to maybe they can reach their full cap. But with so many people on that, have you ever attempted to try to use Webo.

Gough 14:21
I haven't. I'm sorry, yeah, no, I wish I could give you a really clever answer, but I can't. But no, it's No, I never have. It's not something that Amy and I have discussed, to be honest with you, I think mainly because we mainly go for English speaking audiences, for the simple reason is, you know, my films are mainly comedy base. Well, pretty much all of my work is comedy base. And so you really need to have a fairly good grasp of the English language. So we mainly go for, you know, your your western sort of country so to speak so you had more English speaking audience. But, I mean, it's something that we'd absolutely look into in the future. But yeah, for now, probably, probably not. But it's, you know, it's on it on the radar, absolutely, yeah.

Dave Bullis 15:07
I figured I'd ask. I mean, just because I've never had seen anyone actually use it yet, and I was just interested, you know, obviously, you know, just because anything that's a couple 100 million users, you're kind of like, well, I guess I should at least attempt to see what does he want to see? What this is about, you know, and you being a lot closer to China than I am and but, but, you know, as we sort of good, I just want to take a step back. I mean, I know we've kind of gone all the way to the marketing aspect of this, but, you know, with all your writing and everything, and you grew up with this love of writing. And you started to write all these screenplays and short film scripts. And you know, nobody, you know, like, like you just said, nobody really took you seriously, or nobody wanted to produce it. And you ended up making your own film, which ended up becoming, I will not go quietly. And you know, what was the impetus and where you finally said, you know, to yourself, I'm going to shoot, I'm going to prove them all wrong, and I'm just going to shoot this movie myself, and I'm just going to, I'm going to do it and I and I'm just going to move forward with this.

Gough 16:14
Yeah, well, yeah, well, yeah, pretty much out of frustration, you know, people just not understanding. I mean, there's a lot of ignorance in the world in regards to disability, but the good news is, is that ignorance is a curable disease. You know, all you need to do is get yourself educated, which is pretty easy to do in our day and age. So it came out through frustration of people just not understanding, you know, my disability and what I can and can't do. So I thought, well, if I use my own story as a template, and then, like I say, get a range of experts to talk with their knowledge on these subjects of disability and mental health, then yeah, I reckon I could make a pretty good film. And sure enough, I got myself my 90 minute feature out of it, which I'm really, really proud of. So yeah, that, like I said, That was back in 2010 so a little while ago now. But yeah, no, I'm very happy with how it turned out. But yeah, it was, it was all came about through basic frustration, really, and just not being able to be heard, I guess, really, yeah, and

Dave Bullis 17:17
I think a lot of people have felt that way, and also, and still feel that way. You know, when I read about different paths that we've all taken, and not only, not only guests on this podcast, but just hearing people from Hollywood, and hearing people in the indie film world from all over the world, you know, you start to see these, these different paths that people take. And there is always a time when people sort of say, You know what? There's, there's no it seems like every door is closed. You try to go this route and screw in competitions, and that that door is closed, you try to go to this route and you try to get film financing. And then, you know that door is closed because it was becomes like a catch 22 right? Golf, where it's like,

Gough 17:56
But you got to always find a way. Man, well, you know where there's a will, there's a way, you got to figure out that that's that's what it's about, though, because you're absolutely right. I mean, there's nothing more frustrating than and I'm sure a lot of your listeners who are filmmakers would absolutely agree with There's nothing more frustrating than knowing you're sitting on a really terrific script, a really great idea, and just people just aren't getting it for whatever reason. I've been maybe, maybe your pitch isn't as good as it should be, or maybe they're not reading it right, or they're not understanding a character, whatever the case may be. But you know, you're sitting on something great. So you just need to figure out, well, how can I get this now made? How can I get this out there? You know, What angle do I take because, I mean, that's the traditional way of making films. I mean, it doesn't really work for everybody, so you got to figure out, well, how can I get this done? So for me, it was, well, you know what? I'll fund it myself. You know, because the documentary, at the end of the day, a documentary, isn't that expensive to do because, I mean, once you get the equipment, you all you have to do is just organize the interviews that you want to do and get the clips that you need to get and put it together. I mean, it's not that difficult. I mean, there's no big stunts or special effects or anything like that that you have to worry about. So a documentary is a reasonably easy thing to do. And then, of course, the money that you make from that, then you can put to it, which is what I did, put towards your next project, and then the money you make from that, you put towards your next project. And before you know it, you're you're churning them out, which is absolutely what you want to do. So that's sort of how my business model has been. So with every project that I release, I get the money from that. I put it into the next project and hopefully make it bigger and better. And then, you know, I can get more money and make the next film bigger and better. And so that's the, that's sort of how I go about it, because that seems to work for me. So, yeah,

Dave Bullis 19:48
It's like, what Walt Disney always said that, you know, he always, he only makes, he only makes movies so he can make more movies. And that's why he, you know, when the money would come in, you just take that and you put it towards your next project.

Gough 20:10
Absolutely, man, absolutely. I mean, and like, I love what I do. I really do. So, you know, I don't want to, I don't want to blow all my money on something, something that isn't going to be helpful to me. I mean, I want to keep I've got tons of scripts still to make, you know, I've still got lots of great ideas and still got lots of scripts that I need to make. So I'm going to keep going. You know, I'm not going to stop so, yeah, when, when people hit the website, the beanuts productions.com We'll see. You know, we've got five books, we got seven audio downloads, and we've got 14 films for people to enjoy. And so, yeah, we're just going to keep on keep on rocking them out as quickly as I possibly can.

Dave Bullis 20:52
And that's what you have to do. You have to keep that momentum going. And that's something I've found, is that once you hit something, even if it no matter what it is, even if it's a short film that that's that's 510, seconds, or or a podcast, whatever you have to keep that, that momentum going. Because if there's one thing I found golf, it's this confidence is, is a very hard thing to attain and very easy to lose. But once you have that confidence, and you can start keeping that momentum going, and it builds up. I mean, once you have confidence golf, you feel like you can conquer the world.

Gough 21:30
That's very true, but it's also the confidence of others. So for example, when I first did my first scripted projects, and not the documentary, when I did my first scripted film, like the talent agent. So I go about making a film like anybody else does. So, you know, I I contact all the talent agents around Brisbane and the Gold Coast, and I give them a brief of, you know, let's say, for example, I need a 30 year old guy, and he's got a look. He's playing a bad guy. So he's got to have, you know, an evil kind of look about him. He's got to look a bit dark and shady. So I'll send out my brief to the agents. They'll send me, you know, back a whole heap of actors who they've got on their books, who they think would suit. I do auditions. I hire the best actor. So I do it all how a proper film should be made. So the very first time I did that, man, I struggled so bad to get the agents to take me seriously. They're going, you're going to make a short film by like, with what you know, you've gonna fund it yourself, and you got a couple of crew members. I mean, that, you know, they didn't really take me seriously. But now I'm on to my, you know, I just finished my 14th film. Now they, now they've got confidence in me. You know, they know that, you know, I am actually going to pay their actors. They know that I'm not full of shit. I do do what I say. I'm gonna do, you know what I mean? So it's also having the confidence in and also the confidence from your audience to know that, you know, they can hit the bean UPS productions website and they know that they're going to get a really entertaining, funny film, so they're happy to come back time and time again and keep clicking back. So you're absolutely right. It's your confidence as well. That goes up, but it's also the confidence of people you work with and the confidence of the general public as well to to enjoy your work.

Dave Bullis 23:09
Yeah, it's, I know you mean about the confidence of others. And you mentioned, by the way, you're putting everything together, and I wanted to actually ask about that when you were actually making your documentary, your documentary, I will not go quietly, you know, how did you put everything together, since this was your first outing, you know, I imagine, you know, obviously you're still building a network, you're still making contacts, you're still looking for equipment. So how did you go about, you know, getting everything together for your first project,

Gough 23:38
Yeah, well, with that particular one. So I basically put all my funds together that I had so pretty much all my savings, which probably isn't the greatest idea in the world, but I thought, well, you know, I got to go for it, because that's the other thing too. Just going back to your previous point, sometimes you just got to take a risk. You know, you got to take a punt and just believe in yourself and believe in your work. So I got all my funds together. I bought the equipment that I thought I would need, like, just a regular, sort of handy cam tripod, you know, a little radio, couple of radio mics, you know, just basic, standard equipment. I organized the interviews with the people. I just went out and I shot them myself. So, you know, just pretty much pointed the camera and hoped for the best. Because, obviously, framing is not going to be something I'm going to be fantastic at. So I just, yeah, I shot it myself, and then I actually, when I first finished high school, my first job was working at a radio station as an audio producer, making their commercials and their promos. So I did that for about three years, so I've had a lot of practice in editing audio. So when it comes to editing a film, I do it like I'm editing a radio commercial, or in this case, a 90 minute radio play. So I get the clips that I want, I put them to one side, and then I just put the clips together like a jigsaw puzzle, so just making sure that they all make sense and are all coherent, so to speak. And yeah, do. Put it together like that. So I just edit by audio, and that still happened today. So I've got Simon, who's my right hand man, now who I edit with. And so he makes sure that, like, for example, let's say somebody is getting exiting a car, for example. So he'll make sure that the shot from inside the car is going to marry up with the shot outside of the cup that is not, you know. So it's nice and smooth, you know. So he makes sure all that stuff is how it should be for me. But I pretty much tell him my cues as to, you know, when we're going from a if it's a conversation, for example, if we're going from a long shot to a close shot, I'll know, in my mind, the audio, the cue point that. So when the girl finishes speaking, for example, I want to cut to the two shot then and have them both on shot, so I know all my cues by audio. So I'll say to Simon, right, cut it there two shot. And so he'll make it all happen for me now. So I still edit by audio, even today.

Dave Bullis 26:00
Yeah, and you, I wanted to ask too, before I forget, did you? Did you have a full time job while you were making this film?

Gough 26:09
No, no, no, this though, yeah, I, I Well, yeah, I like I said. I started in radio, doing Sarah, and then I also was, while I was working in radio, I was also touring as a stand up comedian. So I've toured all over the place doing stand up comedy. And so when I started up being up to productions, I was still doing the stand up comedy, but then as obviously, as the films have sort of taken over the doing stand up comedy, I don't really do that anymore, so I sort of gave that away. So yeah, when I was doing I will not go quietly the first film, I was doing the occasional stand up gig, but, but, yeah, no, that was pretty much the end of stand up and working full time on the production company.

Dave Bullis 26:55
The reason I brought that up was because a lot of filmmakers, when they're making their first, you know, first movie, they're either working a full time job, they're going to school, they have a family, or a combination of the three. And it's, it's always like, how the hell do you have the time to do, you know what I mean, do anything else so and then it's always at that point, you know whether, when you know, you decided you've had enough, you're going to make something of your own, and you're this is going to be, you know, your shot. It's also about, you know, you're at that point where you have really nothing left to lose, so to speak. And you know you were just pulling yourself up out of that and making those connections and finding the time. And you don't have much, you don't you get up early, you go to bed late. You know, you call in every favor you can to make sure that this, this movie, is as good as possible. Because I actually had on the guy, Elliot Grove, who runs rain dance, and he actually was, was the person who helped Christopher Nolan make his first film following and Christopher Nolan made it on weekends, and he would come to the his office, and, you know, borrow the same equipment, and when he was done, you know, he you know, Christopher Nolan went off and was making other movies at that point, you know. And the rest is history. But you know, that's why I'm always fascinated about people's first films, because it's always a very like David Lynch with a racer head. It took him years to finish that film. And you know, that's why I'm always interested about people's first films, because there's always a unique, a unique story within the story. Yeah?

Gough 28:28
Well, that's why I say, you know, yeah, you just like, you are absolutely correct. I mean, it came to a point where I was like, You know what? I can't, I can't keep getting rejected by people that don't understand me and my work and whatnot. So, you know what? I just have to do this. I mean, otherwise I'm going to be going around in circles, like on a race track, like for the next 1015, 2030, years. I mean, there's guys that I used to do stand up comedy with who are still working the same rooms, doing the same jokes 15 years later. I mean, I, like I said, I haven't done a stand up comedy gig, I reckon, in at least five, probably seven years. But I mean, these guys that I used to tour with, they're still doing the same stuff. You know that they're in, they're in a rut, so to speak. You know they need to, and some of them are really funny, talented guys who could actually really kick some goals if they just sort of put their mind to focusing on what they really want to achieve and what they want to do, you know? So I suppose it's just comes down to a case of having the confidence, like you said earlier, to back yourself in and go, You know what? I can actually do this. I want to do it. And you never, hey, look, Ben, you've only got one life. You may as well give it all you got. You got to give it a shot. You know what I'm saying?

Dave Bullis 29:42
Yeah, I couldn't agree more golf. You know that, by the way, you know, as you were describing those comedians that you, that you used to work with, you know that would make an interesting documentary just following them around.

Gough 29:54
Yes, it would. Yes, absolutely.

Dave Bullis 29:57
Have you ever thought about that?

Gough 30:09
Well, because the other thing too, I mean, I don't know. I'm sure a few of your listeners probably comedy nerds or go and watch a lot of stand up comedy or whatever, but behind the scenes, it's a very catty kind of backstabbing kind of industry, because, especially in Australia, there's, there's a lot of comedians and not enough rooms, so people are fighting for work. So there's a lot of, you know, like, Mean Girls, kind of, you know, very high school bullshit that goes on behind political nonsense that goes on behind the scenes, you know, like, so it would absolutely make if you were able to do it properly. I mean, like, really do a proper fly on the wall and absolutely expose all the bullshit that goes on. Because everybody thinks comedians are just happy, wonderful, hilarious, great people. But that's, I mean, just changing topics slightly. That's why I think comedians make such fantastic actors. I mean, you look at somebody like Robin Williams, you know, Billy Connolly is another one. You know, comedians make great actors because every night they go on stage and they play a character, you know. So what you're seeing on stage, they're really funny and they're doing funny jokes, but that's not who they are when they get off stage. They're a completely different person. That's just their stage persona. So they they're acting, you know, five, sometimes even seven nights a week. And so that's why I think that when it comes to doing a serious role, a lot of comedians are fantastic actors. I mean, I saw Will Ferrell. I mean, people wouldn't think of him as being a great actor, but I saw him in a in a film called Stranger Than Fiction, which I think I was the only person who actually saw that film. It was a really great film, but he and he had to play a sort of a Truman Show, kind of a serious sort of a character. And he was absolutely fantastic. He did a wonderful job. You know, he was really great. So I think that's why comedians make great actors, is because they're acting every night. So going back to the original point, I think a documentary like that would be really, really fascinating, because you'd actually see what they're actually like when the camera, you know, when, when they're not on stage, you know. And you'd see all the the agents and the bullshit that goes on back behind the scenes, you know, it's, it's like, it's like politics, you know, it can be a terrible industry, really.

Dave Bullis 32:30
Yeah, I actually had a Don Barris on here for episode 100 and he and I, you know, discussed that briefly, but about because he was, he actually works at the Comedy Store. He actually closes there every night. And he seen,

Gough 32:45
He know, man, yeah. He know, yeah.

Dave Bullis 32:47
Just all about, you know, all the different comedians that have come, come back through in there, you know, over time, and on Mark maron's podcast, he and Mark just discussed working with Sam Kinison, the legendary comedian, and they would say some of the stuff that he would come out with, and we and, you know, just, just some of the stuff where it was, it was so petty over absolutely nothing. And it's like, you know, you know, it a joke too similar. You know, did this guy get a bigger laugh than me? I go on before him, because I'm a bigger star than this guy. And it's, you know, a lot of the guys are just like, is it really like it? Does it all this really matter at the end?

Gough 33:25
Yeah, well, well, yeah. And that's why I reckon. But I think it would be difficult to make that documentary, because I think it would be hard to get that on camera. I think they would make sure that, you know, they were playing up for that. That's why I don't, I don't know that you'd be able to do it for that exact reason. I think it would be really hard to get them to actually, you know, show that side of themselves, and show the cattiness and the I keep going. I mean, that's the phrase we use in Australia. But I mean, if you've seen the movie, Mean Girls, I mean, that's what it's like, except that fully grown men, who should know better, you know what I mean. So, yeah, but it would, it would be an interesting doco, if you could actually do it properly, it could be a really interesting doco,

Dave Bullis 34:07
Yeah, you know, I had a friend of mine who made a documentary, and he nobody was really like, wanting to speak their mind so to speak, and he was really pissed off, he was frustrated, and he's like, it's not coming together. So what he did was, by chance, he went to an after party one night, and he was like, I'll just see what happens here. Well, some of the people got a few beers in them, and suddenly they're going up to him, and they're just like, let me tell you about this son of a bitch about it. And he's like, Oh my God. He goes, this is what I wanted. All I needed was a couple of alcohol. I should have thought of that in the first place.

Gough 34:44
Well, when I did, I will not go quietly. I purposely was very vague with everybody, because, like I said, I interviewed 24 people, and I was purposely vague on my emails as to what I was going to ask them. Because, I mean, a. Lot of people, especially, I mean, there was a few people that wouldn't speak to me because, for example, in the disability sector in Australia, the employment disability sector. I mean, one thing I found out was 70% of all blind and vision impaired people in Australia are unemployed. They can't get work because no one will give them a go. It's disgrace. And so a lot of people in the disability work sector just would not talk to me, because they know they're not doing their jobs properly, and they can't put these people into work. And, you know, it's just a complete shambles of an organization. So I was deliberately vague. When I would send out their emails, I was just, you know, I'd introduce myself, tell them who I was and what I was, you know, I was making a documentary on disability and mental health, but I wouldn't tell them any more than that. You know, some people said, oh, I want to see the questions in advance, in which case I'd send them some very loose questions. But I always was deliberately vague, because if you give people a chance to rehearse what they're going to say, it's not true. You know, they'll make it well, they won't lie, per se, but they'll put a positive spin to make the situational themselves look as positive as possible. So I was, yeah, like I say, I was deliberately vague with the people. I was interviewing them so I would get more honest answers and feedback for when I interviewed them.

Dave Bullis 36:19
And you know that that's actually ties into with a question I really wanted to ask you golf, and I'm glad you actually brought it up. Is when you were making, you know, not only this documentary, but everything else you know, with you know, you being legally blind, it is, is there ever a time when you're watching, like, maybe the field monitor or playback, when you're I mean, I'm generally interested. I mean, is there ever a time when you have where you actually, you know, can't I, don't I, you know, I'm trying to try to say, like, can you ever, like, have you have trouble sometimes seeing playback, or sometimes, you know what I mean, like, or do you, do you have like, a DP that you depend on for that?

Gough 36:56
Yeah, well, a little bit of all of that. So so I can, if I knows to monitor, I can see what's going on, pretty good. But when we're shooting, because our budgets aren't big, we just got to shoot, and we got to move on. So I don't have a chance to actually see the footage until we begin editing, and then I'll look through the footage then. So, for example, the very first scripted film I did, which was the heather roses interview we I hired a crew, and the guy who was on one of the cameras decided that my direction wasn't up to his liking, and he was shooting all different things, and so I went insane, because that wasn't cool, man. I mean, that's, that's not the right thing to do at all, I mean, and there's no way we could go back and reshoot it, because we didn't have the budget to do that. So obviously he only lasted the one project and he was gone. So it comes down to having a team around me that I can trust and that I know that if I give them a direction, they can follow it. And it's also about them understanding what I want to achieve. So it's about me being able to communicate with my, you know, my director of photography, you know, this is what I want, and this is why I want it. And then he'll be like, Okay, I understand. I get it though. You know, I can just then leave him alone to do his job, because I'm a big believer in that as well. Is, you know, if you have a great team of people around you. You don't have to babysit them, you know, you can give them their direction, and they'll go and they'll do their job. And that means that I can then spend more time with my actors, making sure that I get the performances that I want, because at the end of the day, man, if a performance from an actor isn't believable, then it doesn't matter how good your sound is or your lighting is or anything, man. I mean, people are going to tune out instantly if the actors crap then, I mean, there's not much you can do about, you know, I'm saying so I make sure I spend a lot of time, you know, really working the script with my actors, to make sure they understand precisely, exactly what I want. Not being able to see, I think actually helps, because I really focus on tones and inflections and things like that. So if they're getting a word wrong, I pick it up immediately. So, you know, because I've spent a lifetime having to listen to people, so, you know, I really, really spend a lot of time with my actors, with rehearsing their lines to make sure they get them absolutely spot on. And I, you know, like I say, with the DP, and I just, I give, I've got a really good relationship with him now. So he knows exactly how I like to shoot my work, and what I what I, you know, my sort of style. And so he sort of almost knows before I do kind of thing, how I'm going to say I want this shot. He sort of knows immediately now, because we've done, we've done 12 films together now, so yeah, he knows how I roll now, so it works really well. But it's all about trust. You know, you got to have a crew that you can trust and actors that you can trust as well. And the same goes as well for when I'm directing my actors, I can't see their facial expressions, obviously. So I'll say to Simon, you know, mate, how are the are they giving me good face? And he'll say, yeah, they're giving you good face. And so that's how I know that I'm getting the facial expressions that I need. And we can move on to the next shot. So, yeah, a lot of trust goes into it, but you just can't have, I mean, with unprofessional anyway, but you can't have people going rogue on you and just doing their own thing, because it just makes the mess of the whole production.

Dave Bullis 40:34
Yeah, and he touched on something that I'm a big advocate of, which is, if you're going to hire somebody, let them do that job. You know, I've been on sets before, a golf where it's like people want to directors or producers. They want to micromanage everybody to the nth degree. And you sit there, you go, well, didn't you hire this person? I mean, if they don't know what to do, I mean, that's on, that's on you, you know, because you're you know. I mean, if you hire the person and they don't know what they're doing, that's your fault. You know? Fault, you know? So just, just let them do their thing,

Gough 41:05
But even when it comes down to things like costume and makeup. So I'm a boy, so you know, I'm not, you know, I don't know a lot about this stuff. So I'll sit down with the makeup artist, for example, and she'll say, you know, how do you want this girl to look? And so I'll give a basic description of how I wanted to look. And if she's got any questions, she'll ask me. But basically, it's okay I get it right. Well, off you go and make her look like that. I mean, you know, I mean, I'm not, I don't know about, you know, different shades of pretty eye shadow and whatnot. I've told you, the general look of the girl, the character. So make her look like that. That's your job. Off you go, so that that's kind of how I work, and it's important to do that, because then, like, I say, I can focus on the things that I really need to focus on, and if somebody does have an issue, they can come to me, and I've got time to help them solve whatever problem that they might have, you know,

Dave Bullis 41:58
Yeah, yeah. Very true. And you know, that's why you have to hire good people as best as you can, you know. And that's a lot. Goes back to networking. And, you know, I always tell people, even if you can't afford to pay people, you know, work on their movie for free, and then have them work on your movie for free, just as, you know, as sort of a tit for tat. If you can't afford to pay people, there's always a creative way to solve problems. And, you know, money is not always the answer. I mean, sometimes it's, you know, people always say it's the it's the number one answer, because, you know, money's money. But if you, if you do, start to meet new people and say, hey, look, I have a small thing to do, like a small short film or a small web or a web series, whatever, you know, just help each other out, you know, on that project, rather than just try to, you know, constantly compensate people with cash.

Gough 42:46
Yeah, yeah. Well, that's true. I mean, it's like I said earlier. You know, trust is so important when you when you're working with people, so if you, if you have a good relationship with your cast and your crew. I mean, there's actors that I've worked with three or four times in the film, because I know that they'll always do a good job for me. There are quality actors. So if I've got a film coming up, and I've got a particular I don't necessarily write for actors, but if I've got a film that's coming up, and I think, you know, so and so would be really good for that role. I'll call him up straight away and say, Hey buddy, man, I've got a job for you. Do you want it? And then, you know, we go from there. So it's, I'm a big believer in that, in loyalty. You know, if people, it's silly to go out and hire somebody new when you've got somebody who, like, I mean, Simon, he's been working with me now for the best part of five years, and I'm not going to, fact, the guy anytime soon, because he does a fantastic job for me. So, I mean, it's important as well to make sure that once you find good people, you do whatever you can to get them to stick around. You know what I mean?

Dave Bullis 43:49
Yes, absolutely, you got to keep that team going. And that's why you I always see directors working with the same people over and over again. It's because they've built that team, and they sort of work well together. And you, as you made your film, I will not go quietly, which, by the way, is free on your website. I think that's really, really cool, by the way. And you know, you started to make some other films, you know, other projects, other short films. So, you know, did you know what was, what was sort of that, that journey, you know, obviously, you know, golf, just making these other films. I mean, did you start to get more and more of a budget, or did you always try to keep the same sort of style and same budget moving forward?

Gough 44:29
Oh, no, no. I'm trying to try and get as big a budget as I possibly can, you know, so it gives me a little bit more breathing space, so I can maybe hire an extra crew member, or if I need a few other extras, or whatever I can do that. So, you know, I always try and get as big a budget as I can, but like I say, it always depends on the sales of the last film. So that's why, obviously, I encourage people to hit up beer nuts productions.com and they'll see all the films and whatnot up there, and they can download whatever they want to, and they're safe in the knowledge that while they're getting. Entertained by that particular film that that that purchase or download is going towards making my next film to entertain them. So again, everybody wins, you know. So we're, yeah, I try and try and scrape together as much in the way of funds as I possibly can. So yeah, it does help, let's be honest. I mean, it really does help. You know, the more money you have, the the better you can do things, the more relaxed things can be. So, so, yeah, no, I do try and do try and raise as much as I can. But, like I say, All depends on sales.

Dave Bullis 45:31
So, you know, just as we talk again about, you know, your project and sales, or, sorry, your project and sales, you know what, what has been the most challenging aspect of all this, has it? Has it ever been, you know, getting a location, has something ever fallen through that was a guarantee, you know, what was one of the biggest challenges that you faced golf, and how did you overcome that?

Gough 45:52
Well, the films are reasonably straightforward. I mean, like I say, I've got a good experience in this industry, so, you know, and I'm not one to jump up and down and panic. So if something, if a locate, like for a film that we're doing currently, at the moment, we've had a bit of trouble finding a specific location, but that's okay. Well, I'll just keep going until I find someone who wants to play nice and let us film at their location. But so it's more about the marketing side of things. That's what I've really found a struggle. Going back to one of the things we discussed earlier in the in the chat, was, was marketing and that that's the number one thing that we constantly are fighting and that's why, like I said, I had to employ somebody full time for that, because it was just trying to constantly market and then make the films as well. Was just, it was getting too much so and plus, I needed somebody with more specific skills, because that's not my skill set. Isn't marketing, that that's another important thing as well. When I think with filmmaking, is you got to know what you're good at. So I mean, when it comes to the writing and directing that I can do, and producing, I can do all that. But when it comes to, I mean, I'm no good with the artwork, because I can't see so I get someone in to do that. And same with marketing. I mean, I tried the best I could, but in the end, I just, I knew I had to find somebody else, someone with more experience and knowledge in that area. So that's where Amy came in and and she's taken it through the roof for me, which has been fantastic. But, yeah, as far as the films themselves go. Look, I just, I just do what I do, man. I mean, I, like I said, we do it all like a normal film would get made. You know, I get the locations I need, I get the actors I need. If I need any specific crew members, I just search around till I find the right people and and I just keep going. We're just Yes, there hasn't been any, any real big challenges in that, that regard, like, I say it's all about marketing. That's, that's the number one thing. But as always, ever since day one has been the number one challenge. Has been getting the work out there to the people.

Dave Bullis 47:55
And so now that you that you have all this together, you have that you have the website, and you have all your, all of your, your projects, all in one spot. You know, have Have you noticed golf? Have you noticed a sort of a steady increase of views as you sort of get out there, more and more people are discovering you and your story? Have you noticed that or, or is it something, or are you trying to, sort of, you know, are you still sort of looking for that, that silver bullet, if you know what,

Gough 48:24
I mean, oh no, no. It is, it is steadily increasing. I mean, I'd always like it to increase more obviously, but, you know, but it is, it is steadily, slowly but surely growing, you know, which is fantastic. I mean, so, and that's why I'm so grateful to people like yourself for having me on the podcast and letting me, you know, talk about beer nuts productions and what I do so that people can have a chance to enjoy my work. And so that's why I'm like, I say I'm very grateful for your time and for the podcast. You know, it helps out people like me tremendously to share their work. So yeah, but it's steadily rising. But, yeah, hopefully, hopefully it keeps, keeps growing and growing and growing, because that's like I said in the beginning, man. I mean, there's 7 billion people on this earth, and I'm not going to be happy until all 7 billion have watched one of my films. So that's the goal, you know. So it'll, it'll never be big enough.

Dave Bullis 49:18
And that's exactly it, my friend, you've hit the nail on the head. That's what I have that I always say to myself too. I'm always like, there's 7 billion people on this planet, and by what 2030 or 2050 there's gonna be, like, I think it's gonna be up to like, 10 billion because of the additions of all the dishes of China and India, their populations keep rapidly expanding, especially India, and India is going to be the most populated country in the world soon.

Gough 49:47
Yes, yes, yes. this. Yeah, well, well, I mean, and I mean just their film industry, the Bollywood film industry, I mean that is, that is massive. I think I could be way wrong, but I think I heard somewhere, I was watching a documentary on it, and I'm pretty sure they said it's the second biggest grossing product for India. Is Bollywood, their film industry earned the second, you know, amount of money for that particular country's income comes from Bollywood film, which is just staggering. It's mind blowing. So, you know, the film industry in India is a huge, huge, huge thing,

Dave Bullis 50:35
Yeah, and I did hear that as well, and because they produce so many different movies, you know, a month.

Gough 50:43
I mean, there's, like, they turn them out, like, butter, yeah, yeah.

Dave Bullis 50:48
Seriously, there's always another hit Bollywood movie coming out. It's, you know, and then then some of them, the rare, the rare top couple, find their way over here to the USA, and they, sort of, they play in certain areas, which, which, you know, which, some of them, you know, are fantastic, and then other ones I, you know, I try to watch films from all over. And I'm not a big musical guy, so sometimes when they break out into song and dance, it's just not my jam, you know.

Gough 51:23
Yeah, no, that they do have a very unique style. I mean, I'm not saying it's bad or it's good or anything like that. I'm just saying, you know, they've got their own way and style of making film in Bollywood, you know, it's very bright, it's very in your face. It's very Yeah, song and dance and then a fight scene will break out. It's, it's a bit of, yeah, it's just all sort of action going on 24/7 it's a very different style to to how, how the western side of the world makes films, no doubt about that,

Dave Bullis 51:52
Yeah and yeah, but you know, there are some of the really cool ones out there. And that's, that's a whole nother story for another time. You know, Gough we've been talking for about, you know, 50 minutes now. So just, you know, just in closing, is there anything you wanted to say to sort of put a period at the end of this whole conversation?

Gough 52:10
Well, just my latest film is the the environment, the real truth, which is a mockumentary about the environment. So I'm in a bit of a mockumentary kind of a mood. I've made one about drugs, and I've made one about the porn industry, and now I did one about the the environment. The next one that I'm going to do is about the fitness industry. So I'm in a bit of a mockumentary kind of a feel at the moment. I sort of get into a mood of a style of filmmaking, and then I sort of just ran that into the grounds kind of thing. So yeah, the last film was the environment the real truth. So where I interview, you know, fake scientists and conservationists, like a Steve Irwin, kind of a conservation guy, and then I've got the park ranger, and, like I say, a few different scientists as well. So it's, it was a lot of fun. So it goes for about 25 minutes, and, yeah, people can just download that particular film, and all the films, all the film, audio products and books are all available at just beer nuts productions.com so people can drink a beer, eat the nuts and enjoy my work. That's what it's all about.

Dave Bullis 53:13
Yeah, that's a really cool name, by the way. I was actually to mention that beer nuts. I was like, you know, it's like, yeah, like, beer nuts I serve at a bar. We grab a so obviously, you know, before I would be verbose if I didn't actually mention this Gough, they don't really drink fosters in Australia, right?

Gough 53:29
No, no, no. We sell that to the idiots overseas. We've run good beer over here.

Dave Bullis 53:37
So, so what is, what is your beer of choice?

Gough 53:41
Well, in Australia, the number one beer over here is Carlton draft. Yeah, that's our number one beer over here. But we're big beer drinkers in Australia, man. I mean, there are literally hundreds and hundreds of actually, it's kind of funny. The last film that we did, the environment, the real truth, we had to film a scene in a brewery. And so there's quite a few around the Gold Coast where I live. And so I contacted one, and they're like, yeah, man, come in film, that's fine. So you sure, I mean, workplace, health and safety or, you know, you're processing, like food kind of products. I mean, are we cool to do? So, yeah, just come into what you want to do. They were the most easy going people I've ever worked with ever so we've rocked up to film the scene that we need to do. And I'm like, Well, is there any places you don't want us to go, or is there anything that we need to know? Or he's like, No, man, just wherever you want to go. It's all sweet. All fine. Okay, great. And then he gave us a couple of beers before we left. It was delicious. Yeah, I need to. Everybody's saying to me now, like all my crew are saying to me, you have to write something else about it being in a brewery so we can go back. So yeah, but it's nice when you have people like that, that you know, just want to nice and cooperative and easy going and just want to help out. So yeah, but yeah, that was for the last film. The we were in the balsa Brewing Company helped us out a lot with the location.

Dave Bullis 55:04
You know, I should mention them in the show notes. That was actually really, really cool of them. So if you shoot me their, their, their name, Gough I'll make sure to mention them in the show notes.

Gough 55:15
Well, actually, I don't know for your listeners who were, who might be big fans of surfing, the sport of surfing, three Australian surfers, Mick Fanning, the guy that punched a shark in the face a few years ago in South Africa, that made the news all over the world, but Nick Fanning, who's a number one surfer, Joel Parkinson and, oh, man, I've forgotten the other guy. Those three lads they just wanted with their spare cash, they were like, oh, what shall we do? We'll open a brewery. But that's what they did, and, like, a year later, it's just kicking goals and going from strength to strength. So it's actually their brewery is where we filmed, and it's because there's a big surfing culture here on the Gold Coast where I live, because I live sort of on the Florida of Australia is where I live. So there's big waves just outside my front door, pretty much so Mick Fanning and Joel Parkinson and that they come from where I'm at. So yeah, they, they decided to start a brewery, and good for me, because we ended up filming there. So yeah, it's, it's worked out well for everybody. So yeah, it's funny how things work out like that. But yeah, really cool.

Dave Bullis 56:17
You know some surfer punching a shark. That might be the most Australian thing I've heard of ever. That's,

Gough 56:26
Yeah, if people haven't seen it, I mean, it was on the news. Happened about a year ago, if you just jump on YouTube and type Nick fanning partner shark punch or something like that. That happened in a competition in South Africa and Jay Bay. And, yeah, he was Julian Wilson, was the other surfer in the water. And, yeah, it's, it's really remarkable footage in the I mean, it's funny now, because everything was okay. But the part that makes me laugh the most is the commentator who's Commentating the action, his reaction, because he's like, holy shit. It was, it was very freaking out because, you know, Wade goes over just as this shark's coming at Mick Fanning, and they're like, has he gone under? What's really, it's actually, but the commentators reaction is actually very, very funny. So, yeah, people could just jump on YouTube and and watch that. It's, it's a funny clip.

Dave Bullis 57:17
Yeah, I will make sure to look for that and put that in the show notes, but, but that definitely, I now, every time I think of Australia, I'm just gonna think of that, even though it didn't happen in Australia, happened in South Africa. But still, it's a, it's an Australian thing to happen. I I remember there was this, this, this video I saw one time this, this kangaroo actually had this guy's dog, and it was holding him, and this guy wanted to save his dog, so he leapt over this fence, and he punched the kangaroo straight in the face, and the kangaroo, the kangaroo, fell back on its tail, and then just stood back upright. And the guy just ran off because the kangaroo. I mean, you've seen kangaroos, they can take a punch, so it's

Gough 57:56
Like, six foot tall. I mean, you don't fuck with a kangaroo. They're vicious animals. I mean, people think there's like, koalas. I mean, koalas are actually quite I mean, their claws, they climb trees, and for their claws, they could rip your throat out. So, I mean, you know, you don't fuck with the Australian wildlife, man, that just that, just a no go zone. So, yeah, but I have seen that clip with the kangaroo. It's very funny.

Dave Bullis 58:20
Yeah, I've seen some of those kangaroos in their tail. They can move it. So it's kind of like they never actually fall down. They're always Gough. It has been a hell of a time talking to you, man, and I'm glad we could actually connect again, because you have a unique story as is there. You know, again, everyone has a journey in the in this in the filmmaking world, making content, making media, whatever that might be, and it's cool. I'm glad we could connect and everybody, everything Gough and I talked about will be in the show notes. Gough I want to wish you the best buddy, and I will talk to you very soon.

Gough 58:53
Thanks so much for having me on. I really appreciate your time, Dave.